Trust Your Kids with Mara Brock Akil

Well, there are a lot of young black people that they get into college and they don't, they've never had

a boyfriend or girlfriend.

I don't think that's totally agree with you.

I don't think anything.

And a lot of that comes from being in

all white environments as black kids.

Not to be felt like someone even likes you, even if it's for a week.

Yes.

There's no memory of a mutual desire and how to negotiate those feelings.

There's no place for them to even practice those.

That's the practice that we're talking about.

I always thought that black boys had it easier.

This is my ignorance because I grew up with daughters.

This episode is brought to you by Ribbyon.

You got on your island with me.

I got my vineyard wear on.

Well, howdy-doody.

How are you doing?

I'm good.

I'm good.

We are in this beautiful barn

on Martha's Vineyard.

Up Island in Chilmark.

And

it's just a beautiful, beautiful place to record.

And would you do me the favor of explaining up island like you explained it to me?

Because I was thinking up meant over, but up actually means up.

This is the higher elevation of the island.

So you have more rocky cliffs over the ocean.

If there are beaches, they are rocky and sandy, whereas, you know, down island where Edgartown, Oak Bluffs are, it's flatter.

It's more, you know, the elevation is closer to the ocean.

So, you know, the sort of the sandier beaches are there.

So we are up island.

You know,

speaking of up island and all the rocky roads, this is the perfect place to test out the Rivians that we were given by.

This is the perfect terrain for Rivian

owners.

It is the perfect lifestyle.

Yes.

Because you have beaches, you've got the back roads.

You need to be able to lift that vehicle up, lower it down.

And I have driven my Rivian here.

The ones we were gifted.

I am so excited about getting a chance to drive.

It's really nice, isn't it?

It's really nice, really easy to drive.

And when you're going over these bumpy roads, you really don't feel it in the car because it sits up so high.

So I really love it.

We're excited today.

Yeah, we've got a great guest,

somebody that I have been watching from afar,

hoping to get to spend some time with.

So I feel like, you know, this is the fun thing about this podcast.

I get to meet people that I have admired from afar and spend some time with them.

And unlike, well, like you, I've admired her from afar, but just through her work.

Yeah.

And

she is

the mastermind behind some iconic shows.

So

let me get right to her bio.

Mara Brock Akil is a television writer and producer credited with 400 episodes of television, including one of my all-time favorites, girlfriends, that I hope we can dig into a little bit here.

The game, Being Mary Jane, and

in most recent fan favorite and critically acclaimed,

and a new Robinson Robinson favorite.

So our whole family watched this whole series together forever.

So without further ado, Maro, Braca Keel, come on out.

Mara.

Welcome to IMO.

Thank you.

Oh my gosh.

I am so happy to see you.

You are here.

You are here.

You are here.

Yes, girl.

Yes.

Oh, my goodness.

Welcome.

From afar.

You've been watching me from afar.

I'm your friend forever.

I have.

I'm just, you know, I'm, first of all, you're beautiful.

Oh, my God.

You know, thank you.

Right back at you.

And I'm just like, who is this badass, beautiful woman who is involved in everything and just sort of killing the game?

So I have really been a fan.

And

we actually got to meet at a couple of days ago because a good friend of our mutual friend Tracy brought you to Barack's birthday bash here.

He always, we celebrate his birthday and have a little barbecue.

So I was just thrilled when you walked in the door.

Oh my goodness.

It was so, it was, it was, it was quite a moment for me.

I had to, you know,

so much respect for you and your family and to be that close and proximity and, and how loving I was, you know, it was a beautiful time.

And you're like, oh, you know, you guys are who you are.

But what i love mostly is that you are a family first yeah that's and just regular dankular people having a good time having a good life

doing a little electric spy the babies dancing in the middle of the floor um but you do you come in first

and there was a moment that i really just i just thank god i love being there i love being there for what it represents but then we take that breath you're like oh yeah we're just here together having a good time on the vineyard well that's what the vineyard represents yeah to us.

And I know to you, you were a long time

for 14 years.

For 14 years.

And my first, well, technically 15 years.

My, I talk about Ralph Farquhar all the time.

Yeah.

But, you know, it's important to have

our listeners so people know who he is.

So Ralph Farquhar is an amazing storyteller himself, known as a showrunner.

But he has, I met him when he was,

well, he was my boss on Moisha.

Sorry, let me back up on South Central.

See, you've had so many shows.

Exactly.

South Central.

Well, yeah, whoa, whoa, whoa.

He's had so many shows.

I think his career started in Happy Days, and he's talking about this place called Martha's Vineyard, and Black people descend upon the island.

What?

Almost like, like, we're like birds.

We're migrating over here or something.

And he, the way he talked about it, I just wanted to see it, touch it, feel it.

And I came and I'll never forget this because music is, it guides my work, but it guides my life and my memory.

And and jay-z's reasonable doubt had just dropped uh-huh so you can remember why what dropped yes and it's like the summer playlist it's the summer image it was interesting too because

it was in july

and it was a younger it's a different august it's a different island in july than it is in august it definitely is and it was younger people hanging out together, partying a lot.

And we're going to leave it there.

How old were you when you were there?

If we can do the math, how old?

I was 20 and

I was 26.

So that was my first time.

So then later when

we came on the island,

it was right after jumping the broom

and

just wanting to be here and learning the legacy,

learning about the island more historically, not just from a party perspective.

Yes.

It was just, this is where we needed to be.

In fact, vacationing sometimes was just tired to being the only Black family sometimes in these beautiful places but to come to this island and see each other and get the rest restoration the joy the laughter the food um the safety the safety in numbers but in but also you can you can chill out but it's a place where kids and little black boys and black girls can they can find love and they can stand in in groups and not be bothered.

They can loiter like kids should be able to do and feel safe and parents don't have to worry.

They can see themselves in

others as well, you know, can feel that freedom together, can have those memories of what your nervous system feels like when it feels safe.

So you actually know the difference.

And we'll talk more about this when we get into

our favorite show.

Oh, I love you guys say that.

Truly, truly, forever we are talking about, but we're going to talk more about that.

And before we we dig into the show okay

i want to know what was your relationship with your older brother like oh my goodness shout out to my brother i lost him a few years ago

um thank you thank you i we had a very passionate uh

sibling relationship.

We talked a lot.

We argued a lot.

And what's the age difference?

He's three years older.

Okay.

He's three years older.

Similar.

You know, I I want to say this too, because I really believe it.

Our relationship is still thriving and growing.

I feel his energy around me all the time.

We have an angel number that lets me know that he's nearby.

And

funny times I will ask him, yo, where are you?

Where are you?

Because I need you right now.

And one of the things that we often talked about, he really wanted to be,

he was the only

sort of, he was the only man in our family for a very long time in a family full of women.

And he felt such a responsibility to being the man and making it and financially successful.

And

I think about him a lot and

his,

you know, just compassion for

what he was going through.

And he didn't need to put that pressure on himself.

You know, I think about that sometimes.

But now I experienced him.

I feel his

coo presence on me that i was like come on let's go help me build help me

and i hope i don't sound you know i'm not gonna own that i know i don't sound weird i really believe in the spiritual connection still he's not in body anymore but he is in spirit with me but our we he was my big brother you know um even if we argued uh you couldn't argue with me though you know what i'm saying you know what i'm saying

yeah you can you couldn't argue with me right you know yeah back up you know it's like that's my you know, that's my sister.

It was funny because we went, there was, we had one overlap in school together.

And he let me have, I'll have another fun story.

He, he let me have my, my space, you know, kind of vibes.

But I always loved when I passed him in the hallway.

He, I always wonder, is he going to talk to me?

Cause he's a senior and I'm a freshman.

And he always, he always said, hello, how are you doing?

Everything good.

And he was kind of had this formality to him that I really loved.

I was like, I'm good.

And isn't there?

I never tell Craig this this to my face, but when you have a big brother that you adore,

there is a certain energy, you know, like I would just get excited knowing he was in the same space, even though safe.

Yeah.

Even though I was trying not to be the little sister because we were raised not to be up under each other.

My mother and father wanted to make sure that he didn't feel like he had to protect me.

Right.

Because he, like your brother, is a worrier.

He was the one that took on just naturally a lot of stuff.

And so my mom was like,

Your little sister is fine.

Don't worry about her.

So I tried to give him his so he could have a little life too, not having to feel like when I'm around, it's like, How's she doing?

Is everything okay?

But I did it anyway, you know, because that's just who I was.

And she was just so cute.

And I didn't want anything to happen.

But you know, I found like that's really interesting too, because the birth order is beautifully.

If we believe in God's majesty and

the dynamic nature of our lives, your being born the big brother is a part of the dynamic that is needed, taking that on.

That when you came into the world, you were loved not by just two people, but by three people.

You know what I'm saying?

And a very, and I think that's a beautiful way to think about siblings.

This is part of your role.

And it's funny with our two boys, you know, I often also let Nasir know Yassine is our oldest and Nasir is our youngest.

And Nasir is a, they're both, you're a great little brother and you're a great big brother in your

dynamic.

I always, and so anyway, I just feel like that's also unique in that part of that responsibility, you know.

But to your point, not to overdo it, but that's, like you said, that's just who you are.

The sibling relationship is one of the most special relationships.

And I tell them that, you know, we're going to be out of here.

And you guys are going to,

you guys are going to be left in it together.

So, how are you going to move together?

How are you going to support each other?

These are the times in which those

bonds need to,

you know, to anchor in.

And here's the other thing, too.

When I think about love, what really is love?

What is it?

And I feel like it's the witnessing of another

through the good, the bad, the mundane, the in-between, and who gets the VIP court side, all the special VIP bracelets in your life.

And

that's a privilege.

You know what I'm saying?

Think how much

we want to be in the party.

Well, you want to be in someone's life like that.

Well, a sibling has it from.

all of your dreams and memories are packed into each other.

And

for someone to sort of and to lose that bond over time, it's just, it would be unfortunate.

Boy, this has been a terrific trip to Martha's Vineyard.

Yeah, it's been so nice having you and young Aaron with us.

We've had such a ball having you here.

Yeah, it's been really nice.

And look, we topped it off with a party at the end of the day.

I know, it was a good jam, DJ.

I heard you were doing a little electric slide, yeah.

The old man electric slide.

So, just from here,

more slide than electric, more slide than electric, yeah, yeah.

But check this out, you know, I'm an Airbnb guy now, right?

Well, you remember the photographer who was there, uh-huh, yeah, got him on Airbnb.

No way, you can

what do you mean?

You or order, but he was a professional photographer, a professional photographer.

You can order services through Airbnb.

Uncle, as part of this new Airbnb extra amenities, what do they call the program?

Airbnb services.

Airbnb services.

And you can order a chef.

You can order all kinds of stuff.

I was like, let's order a photographer so we don't have to worry about taking pictures.

He took all the pictures and will send them to us on a.

You know, now that's a great idea because if I am so horrible at even thinking about taking pictures.

And while you've got a great phone and everybody's good at that, it's so nice to have somebody that follows you around, like we did in the White House.

We had a White House photographer, right?

So it's sort of like Airbnb services let you have your own White House photographer that can follow you around and just get all these great candid shots.

That is so cool.

And it was very similar to being at a wedding where you don't even know he's there, but you're going to have this whole album of pictures.

That's so great.

This generation would love that.

That is a phenomenal amenity.

I can't wait to see the pictures.

I'm just a little worried he might have caught me doing the non-electric slides.

So, well, if he's any good, he definitely caught that.

So, we want our listeners to definitely check out Airbnb services on the Airbnb app or website.

You'll love it.

It sounds like you and your brother, brother, like Craig and I, we weren't competing with each other.

That I know that I was his biggest cheerleader, still am.

And I know I try to make, I've tried in my parenting of Malia and Sasha to make sure that they never felt like they were competing with each other.

I think you've done a great job because I've been able to witness your children outside in the world and they feel like friends.

They have become

individuals, not even locked as your sisters holding hands, moving down,

but

they feel like friends respecting each other.

Well, and if you talk about the lives that they've lived in such a short time, you know, they are the only two people who really relate to the unique blend of crazy that was their life growing up together.

And I think that that's helped.

But I've also tried to make sure that they

appreciate their

individuality

and that we see it.

It's not like be like your big sister or look at your little sister.

Like we, I've made it a point not to talk about grades at the dinner table just because, you know, it's like, let's talk about school.

Yeah.

But when we talk about grades or scores, you know, I was always sensitive.

What if the other one's not?

What if the other one's not doing great?

And we are rewarding and cheering an A when the other one might be getting a C.

And that's, you know, and then you set up, you know, competition, some kind of measure, measure unintentionally.

I know Craig and I didn't have that.

And some of that, I think, is because we were

opposite gender.

But I, I feel like that's something that, you know, a lot of parents.

you know, they think that, you know, for the big one, be like your big.

Well, it's interesting you say that because I remember my brother was really good.

And um

grades we didn't talk about that but i knew he was good so there was this i think healthy competition around that i you know i like when he's talking about his age i'm like okay well look at mine i mean so i i remember that feeling um but that's an interesting

intentional idea that you're saying that you didn't bring to the table i want to mention one that you did that you offered to us as a nation and i believe probably maybe the world is the rose and the thorn yeah

we use that a lot we did use that a lot and one of the things how it's morphed for me is i'll ask nasir now who's still at the dinner table you see is in in college he's at nyu but the um

i'll ask when did you laugh today and what did you laugh about and that has gotten a lot of results

yeah that was a good one and then i kind of get some insight into his friends and what they're laughing about what they're talking about i think storytelling is, even if it's like little snippets,

those are the things that I find that I like most at the dinner table that I think allows for relationship to blossom in real time, even amongst,

you know,

we don't just caught up in just, we just eat together, right?

That's right.

What are we talking about while we eat together?

A lot of debate is happening at the, you know, I think even for young men, for them to be able to express their opinion

clearly.

I mean, children in general, but for us,

express themselves, but then also be able to witness your children and how they are able to get their opinion across and be able to sort of watch them before they launch out into the world.

And I will share with you what our family always did.

It was really interesting when we had family gatherings, it was never kids in the other room.

Right.

Our family always allowed us to be in the room

and hear the adult conversations.

And when you were ready, you could chime in.

Now, it couldn't be any mess and it had to be well thought out and serious or you would be pummeled with

ridicule,

but in a way that would keep you wanting to come back.

And I always thought that helped my ability to navigate.

communication in the world

was exactly what you said.

I had a safe place to practice.

It's like a sport.

It's like a sport.

I got to practice in this comfort of our own home.

And

then when we both were old enough to sort of give back,

you know, give as good as we got.

Yes.

That's when she passed me up.

Because she got really good at arguing and debate.

I think one of the things you point out, Craig, is the practice.

And as parents, as parents raising kids, kids of color, I think we underestimate the importance of setting our kids up for practicing their voice and their emotions.

I think sometimes I have doubled down.

I'm like, okay, well, how'd that make you feel?

Well,

it's like, I don't feel anything right now.

I feel annoyed.

Yeah, yeah, I feel annoyed.

Okay, great.

Boys are different from girls.

They'll tell you how they feel when they're 30.

They will.

They will.

Eventually.

Yeah, but there's still the practice of, I think you tap into that sooner because you, you were also encouraged just to talk.

Yeah, I'm being a little facetious.

Yeah.

I'm making the point that

girls just are more advanced.

We have one girl and three boys.

So she's ahead of all, she was ahead of all of them emotionally when she was eight.

See, I, okay, I want to get into this.

I actually think there's a lot of emotional intelligence in boys.

Yes, there is.

But they hold it in their bodies.

Right.

I'm a lot just sort of witnessing it.

And when they're ready, actually.

When you say you're witnessing it, what do you say?

Well, boys hold a lot in.

And I know I think that's a societal idea as well put upon boys that I don't think that we allow for

places for them to emote.

But I think it is expressed in their

physical movement.

And so in that, I find

the days that sort of my sons have exerted themselves in the things that they want to do, the car ride or the tuck-in at bed, is where there's a lot of conversation.

The best discussions I've had with my three boys have been rearview mirror discussions when they're in the back seat

and I can look to just see what they're doing, but I'm not looking directly at them.

And it made me think about forever

because we watched forever with our two younger boys, like our our oldest son is 33.

So

he's got his own Netflix account.

He's 29.

Finally, he has his own Netflix account.

I don't think our daughter does yet.

She's 29, but he's got his own.

But we watched.

So we need those numbers.

And now that when I knew you were coming on, because when I'm watching this whole thing and I didn't know your background then, now when we were doing the research for this, you had two sons.

I want to know.

How did they influence that whole storytelling?

And I'm asking for myself, but I'm asking for my, my kids because after you talk, I'll share with you.

I want to know because I have some, I really want to know.

Yes.

Well,

a lot of my, my storytelling

ethos is I tell the truth through fiction.

Okay.

And so a lot of times my heart locks in on something or I'm locked in on something.

In real time, as a mother, I'm locked in on my boys at a time when I was concerned about just their rite of passage, their coming of age.

What are they going to get, miss?

And you're trying to fill in the gaps, right?

I had a place

to pour all these feelings I was having about my parenting, about my sons, what I'm witnessing into this coming of age story about first,

which is one of the biggest things I was concerned about.

Yes, they're getting a great education in the private white institutions, but what, at what cost?

And the social things were really starting to creep up.

And I was concerned that he was not my eldest son, who is pioneering the family in a lot of ways.

I didn't feel as though he was getting some of the social

experiences I think children need while they're in the home, while they're in this stage of life.

What was he missing and why?

Well, you know,

I think he deserved to be felt crushed on

and mutually felt.

I felt like there was his, his, um, a lot of his uh classmates who you know you get to you do the catch-ups with the moms, right?

Oh, they're on their third girlfriend.

I'm like, oh, I wow, I haven't had that.

I haven't had that experience.

Well, there are a lot of young black people that they get into college and they don't, they've never had they've never

girlfriend.

I don't think that's totally agree with you.

I don't think a lot of that comes from being in

all white environments as black kids.

not to be felt like someone even likes you even if it's for a week yes there's no memory of a mutual desire and how to negotiate those feelings those conversations those opportunities maybe to come to mom or dad for advice or aunt and uncle or village there's no place for them to even practice those that's the practice that we're talking about i always thought that black boys had it easier this is my ignorance because i grew up with daughters you know i'm not in every household household, but when I look at it from, I think there's a time in which black boys become, they're really cute from kindergarten to fourth grade.

And actually, Dr.

Jawanza Kanchufu has a book on about the conspiracy to destroy Black boys.

And it's typically society starts to pull away from them.

Imagine being so cute and then suddenly so

threatening.

Yeah.

So then you start to see the

they, and

we're trying to give them language around this, and you're watching this.

So there can be a separation where now

you are a threat.

And as your body gets bigger, your physical self gets bigger,

it all the things that we're still trying to work on in our country, all that race, whether it's conscious or unconscious, it is starting to form about who's going to kiss those ideas.

If you're crushing on someone, another step is a kiss.

And we understand those ideas that are still embedded in our country.

And I don't think, and I, again, I'm not saying that people are leading with this, but I am saying that

he's, he's a dynamic, he's handsome, he's dynamic, he's an existence.

He's your son, there's gorgeous, yeah.

It's like, where are young men?

Where are the flood?

And again,

when you sort of do the math,

is it because he's the only black boy in the class?

And then as a parent, I'll be honest, you know, my guilt sort of comes up about it.

Celine and I talk about it all the time and we check in and all the time.

So what, so

let's go back to the vineyard.

Hey,

we need to get to the vineyard just so he can see.

Maybe, maybe one little flirtation on Circuit Avenue might help us get through the rest of the year.

Just hold on.

Just hold on, baby.

Just hold on.

Hold on.

We're going to get two weeks, three weeks out of this.

But Mar, you make a good point about,

you know, and Craig, I'd love to hear how you think about this as being one of those cute little boys that grew into maybe a threatening

overnight when we know that overnight they don't change internally.

Oh, they're wobbly.

They're wobbly.

They become, I call them baby giraffes.

They really are.

They are.

They're just,

you know,

and I call them baby on a stick, you know, because it's like the same little baby face on top of this big, huge man body.

Six feet plus.

And just the body grew, but they're still the same cute little boy in themselves, but they're walking out.

And then I'm going to add before it, they add the mask of what they think black masculinity is.

So even like when you're trying to take a picture, everybody's happy and then everybody mean mugging in the shot.

You're like, guys, I know.

Guys, guys,

it's like, what do we do?

We smile.

Yes.

What is this?

And making room for that because they're trying to protect themselves.

And again,

trying to protect, I think, what we keep overlooking and missing and

not built to hold for them.

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Well, I will say for me,

growing up, if you, I know you remember this, but you wouldn't know this.

I went to an all-boys high school.

Oh, how was that?

And it was

talk about storytelling.

I could tell a bunch of stories about that, but

it took the pressure off

of

having to perform every day in order to attract girls that's what in looking back at the time i didn't realize this right at the time i was like geez this is a lot of dudes around here and it was a catholic school so it was very rigid so

any social reaction in any social interactions were um

were intentionally put upon us with dances with the girls school.

Right, right, right, right.

So, inevitably, there was enough people there where you could actually go ask somebody to dance.

If you wanted to ask a black girl to dance, you could.

If you wanted to ask a white girl to dance, there were, it was like the proportions were about the same.

And so, I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything.

But did you feel like a threat as you grew?

Could you feel society change?

It's not reaction to you.

Did not feel that.

And I don't know

when I started to,

I didn't really feel like I was a threat until I had gone away to college and then come back

because I was a little bit more

able

to

perceive slights toward me where I don't think I could and I was just oblivious.

I was either oblivious or I didn't run into it because I was an athlete.

To your point about.

Well, yeah, there is a privilege.

There's a privilege that comes with being

an athlete and not even a good athlete.

All you have to be is on the team and people treated you differently.

And

my Catholic school was mostly white.

So

there were opportunities and there was the odd slight, you know, the one teacher who thought, okay, you shouldn't apply to Princeton because you won't get in.

Right.

That kind of thing.

But we were used to that.

It seems like there's a lot of those in the counseling department.

We were used to that.

But when I when I really think back on

feeling like I

didn't feel like I was a threat until I started driving around the first time I felt like I was a threat when I got pulled over just for driving a car.

Yeah, driving while black.

But I was prepared for that, right?

I was prepared for it.

It doesn't make it right, but I was prepared for it.

But I, I, so, and, and now when I think about my sons and I think about, I'm listening to you talk to your sons and, we, and, and we're watching forever.

And, you know, this was when they were 14 and 12.

Now they're 15 and 13.

So they were, they were young.

And thanks to Malia, because we were no R-rated stuff until you get to 16.

You need a big cousin.

You need a big.

She ripped that.

She ripped that band-aid off.

And Kelly and I were like, ooh, don't.

So we, we watched it and there were some as you know there were some scenes and we're like

we're shaking more than the boys were and um but it forces communication and absolutely good discussion about these things yes and then and thank you for that and i think that's what i would hope that forever can do so when i hear about families watching it together i feel like it's just that opportunity not only to talk about sexual health but talk about their emotional health in um to themselves to their friend group, and to their

significant other, and to their household.

Yeah.

And ultimately, to their future, because that's what we're really trying to protect: is that, yes, you should go through this rite of passage, but how do you get it?

How do you get through it in a healthy way

of sound mind and body?

Yeah.

And that's the goal, right?

That's what it is.

And it's going to, and it is uncomfortable to think about

this for any child, but it's going going to happen eventually.

And I think the privilege and the joy is it to happen while they're under our roof.

That we can witness them

so agree.

And not that we want our children to fall, but if

they're going to fall, let them fall and come and come home.

Let them fall right there so they can see themselves.

Well, Lynn Mar, this is what you're saying about black kids.

You want them to have enough social experience.

And I'm talking to my brother too, you know, because there's a balance of you worry about them being out and being in the wrong house and the parents aren't this and they aren't that.

You know, but that's coming, you know, they're going to with or without in high school, they're sophomore, two, three years, it's going to happen.

When

we're having our discussions during and after the show,

I asked the boys, so what, what, what is the thing that comes to your mind when you're watching this?

Oh, and you know what they said?

We compare your parenting to their parenting.

Wow.

Isn't that so?

Who are you?

Well, of course, I'm the dad.

That's what I want.

But I'm not as cool as you can.

I'm not that cool.

But

they were.

They were really focused in on comparing

the show's parenting style to our parenting style.

Wow.

And in the middle, we'd be watching it and it's like, oh, because the truth is, they'd be like, mom would never do that.

Or, oh, that's exactly what you do.

What did your mother do?

Yeah.

Or, dad, you'd never, you'd never let us do this.

Or, you know, that's why I love the show because it checks, it helps to check parents because we are so afraid.

We are so happy.

You know, we afraid so many parents out of deep love.

It's It's not, it's, it's deep love.

You don't want, you know, you don't want your baby.

I mean, the thought, that's why we're as happy as our least happy child.

That's saying every parent knows it.

Every parent feels it.

You know, but sometimes we don't realize that we parent out of our fears.

Of course.

We parent out of our desire not to feel the hurt.

And we couch it.

in terms of I'm doing it for them.

Yes.

I mean, there was a whole lot of stuff going on in the Robinson household.

So

it was really cathartic for our family.

That's what I'm hearing, that there's a big sigh,

a big deep breath, another regroup.

Okay, everybody, let's figure this out

on all sides.

And they also need to see our flaws.

It is

so helpful.

for them.

I mean, I think one of the biggest reliefs was when by the, you know, I thought my parents were perfect because,

you know, and not perfect in some ridiculous way.

I just, you know, I couldn't see their flaws.

But you, there comes a point, you know, and I was in college and I'd gone off and studied sociology and psychology.

And then I could bring all those theories back and, you know, pick apart my parents.

Yes.

Right.

But that.

that was sort of a necessary thing to realize oh my my father's um relationship to his ms

is is not healthy.

You know, the notion that he, we, we would applaud the fact that our father just got up and he went to work and he never sacrificed for anybody and he never took a day off.

This is a man who had MS.

Oh my God.

And as I got older, I was like, why aren't, why aren't we looking at therapies?

Right.

Why isn't he going to the doctor more?

Why are we bragging about the fact that he never stops?

Never stops when MS is a disease that is so debilitating that there's sometimes he needs to stop.

What is it about him?

What is it about my mother?

You know, where we've created this heroic, you know,

paradigm that is not healthy at all.

That's the beauty of progress, right?

Sometimes it takes, you don't like sometimes how long it can take because of the different, you know, constraints on us.

But I think, you know, as a storyteller, sometimes I have to keep keep going back to the origin of things and you realize oh that's why he didn't stop he didn't stop because

stopping meant something different to us a few generations ago you too may not be here if if other generations didn't stop but it's there's no food on the table there's no but at some point to your point where are we at the tipping point where it's going to kill us in other ways if we don't think about how we

take care of ourselves and as we fight continuously for our humanity.

And

it comes with sometimes the ability to rest and reflect, to look at the patterns, to look at, to examine.

I'm going to apply these, this knowledge I have at some of the best institutions we have in our country, and I'm going to take it back to my family.

That's what I would love that we can do.

You know, and that excites me in a lot of ways, even though there's a lot of work still to be done.

Oh, for for sure.

Welcome back to IMO, everybody.

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I really want you to talk a bit about your staying power in this industry.

You know,

you

were one of the youngest showrunners, black showrunners.

I mean, you have, you have put out hit after hit after hit.

And in a business where it doesn't happen, you got a season two on Netflix.

My love for it.

I

accepting that I, accepting my purpose in my life, I think is my staying power.

And actually, as much as I want to make hit after hit after hit, I really enjoy making.

I love the stories of us.

I just see so many, so many opportunities that were missing at the time that I came in the industry.

It felt like, guys,

there's so many stories.

I did have to develop how do I sell those, which can be very challenging at times.

Can you talk more about that?

Well, it's interesting.

Honestly,

it's akin to how Black people have succeeded in America throughout, is that oftentimes America will ask

of us to come in when things are in chaos or in turmoil.

Oh,

I feel that.

Do you know a little something about that?

Think about that.

Think about that moment when we don't know what to do.

Then now maybe

there could be a first black president.

So

when

girlfriends came about,

UPN, the network, was in trouble.

Nobody would touch that network.

I took all the legacy.

I treated it as a value and found other

people who also saw this opportunity as valuable and led from that place.

So typically, if you go back in the pattern of my career, I have made leaps when

the industry was changing in a way that felt like, you know, a little bit of the sky is falling kind of vibes.

So So that was one way.

And the third part that's very important to me is job creation.

I know that if I'm able to take this idea that's floating out here or in my heart and I can land it on the page and it's, it becomes a lighthouse for other talent to come and join me.

I also know that it's feeding families.

And that

my staying power is not just about my own need to tell stories, right?

And you're doing this in real time,

not just

from your programs, but you are mentoring the next generation of creatives.

Can you talk a bit about that?

Well, thank you for, oh, thank you.

It's a, you know,

I have what produced over 400 episodes of television.

And with that, it has inspired a lot of young people who typically are the

their families are saying, please go to be a doctor, go be a banker, go be a lawyer.

Again, because it feels safe for us.

Because it feels safe as parents, but we have inspired them to want to be storytellers, which I personally believe is the most valuable asset we as humans have is our story.

The challenge

is that the industry changing and it looked like a gold rush yesterday.

It doesn't feel like that today.

But there's a long line of people who want to tell, we're now inspired to tell their story.

And I can't pretend I don't see it.

And so the way I thought is that I would have a writer's colony.

And I built a resident.

It's been four years.

It's a place to write.

It's a place to belong and a place to find your voice.

What we don't need,

we don't need another Mara.

We need what

there's something in you that you and God want to get out as sort of like a co-creation idea.

You need to get that out, but where are you going to get your foothold?

And

even signal to family who's helping to typically all artists, they're supported by someone.

And typically it's the family.

So the first venture capitalists are family, you know, family and friends, a family and friends round, right?

That's right.

That's right.

And so the signal to even

the writer themselves and the family that's supporting them.

what could be created so that it feels like they can actually

get into this institute, into this industry and thrive and the reason why you do need a community of peers mama and daddy and auntie and grandma and uncle they're going to love your script but you need

object you need objectivity you need baby

i mean first of all people are just blown away that you can write 100 pages of anything and i think the communication around the expectations from family if you just sort of meet it with real conversations hey this is what i'm doing this is what i understand the industry is this is my strategy.

Literally, I would mask my life so that I protected the ability for me to write.

Yeah.

Well, this might be a good time to.

Oh, look who's.

Oh, I'm sorry.

No, go ahead.

No, no, do that.

No, go ahead.

For a listener question.

Yes, that's perfect.

It kind of ties into a lot of what we're talking about.

And it's family.

It's IMO's attempt to be sort of communal, you know?

So we get a question from our listeners.

Okay.

And this question is from Julia, who happens to be from Los Angeles.

Okay.

Hi, Michelle and Craig.

My name is Julia.

I'm the daughter of immigrants, went to Princeton and on scholarship, where I felt like an outsider, and then took a job in finance, which I hated, before pivoting to teaching, which I still do now.

I know both of you went to Princeton and then took jobs in lucrative fields like law and finance before pivoting to less lucrative but more fulfilling careers.

People of color and immigrant kids often feel extraordinary pressure to go to the best schools and get the the best, highest paid jobs because of the sacrifices and suffering of their parents, even if these schools and jobs are not the best fit.

My parents, for example, worked at a fast food restaurant that burned during the LA uprising.

I'm now the parent of teenagers, and I wholeheartedly believe they do not need to go to an Ivy League school or have a highly paid job in medicine, law, or finance in order to be happy, quote, successful human beings.

But I also know I have so much more privilege than my parents ever did and that my kids don't need these fancy degrees and jobs in the way I felt I did.

What advice do you have for these kids and also for their parents?

Oh my goodness, this is the perfect question.

And we started talking about this.

Yes.

Yeah.

So I didn't want to get too far into it and kind of just let it right.

I would think first is acknowledge that

the awareness is beautiful.

She already knows, Julia already knows that it's different.

I think, and I think

I know I go to therapy a lot, but she might need to sort of work on that guilt.

That

meaning,

they're still embedded in the question, am I doing something?

Did I do something right?

And by nature of her, the privilege for her to pivot,

her parents applaud them that they got a child to Princeton

through that experience

into a career and have the presence of mind that this is not for me.

That is the progress, that is the victory, that is it.

And if there can be made peace, I don't, I don't know if the diet, what that not speak, not knowing the full dynamic,

but I hear a little bit, and maybe I of guilt, if perhaps.

And by letting that go, we'll free up parents who have journeyed through something themselves to then not bring that guilt into the parenting of the next generation.

So the awareness is a beautiful step.

And maybe that next step would be there.

But it sounds like Julia is doing a great job of awareness and knowing that she needs to parent different.

I think

communication, which is hard sometimes, and it's interesting, we talked about that from the beginning: that

what we as parents are pouring into our kids to allow them.

I think you were talking about even at the table when you were, what can you offer back to the community when you were ready to,

your debate skills and your communication skills.

Kids being back at that dinner table,

having the support to add new ideas to the family, to grow the family.

Our children have a lot of good good ideas and likely in Julia, Princeton,

her, even though she felt like an outsider, she probably was a good witness to a lot of good information that she could bring back to her family, to herself, and thus to her family, her growing family.

But the kids do have things to offer.

And I think we need to make room for them.

They know themselves, especially when they are raised.

I think that's whatever the dynamic of the family, and they can help lead that new conversation.

I'll tell you one.

When I first

was, you know, in Northwestern, I'm at, I'm in LA making the little bit of money that I was making.

But my grandmother kept sending me articles about teaching in LA USD because we had LA, my family had LAUSD on lock.

That's the Los Angeles United School District.

And at first it broke my heart.

And I'm like, do they not understand what I'm trying to do?

What I'm trying to do?

I'm out here trying to do the thing.

And I thought, no, they don't.

And not only do they not understand it, Mara, you, you haven't fully let them know while you're still trying to figure it out.

But this has hit me like a ton of bricks.

They can't help you.

There's no phone call they can make to say, look out for my baby.

Right.

Can you endow it?

Can they get an interview?

Can they just, can somebody read the script?

Yes.

There's nobody to call.

So babies.

out in the desert.

Yes.

There's no community we can put around, no extra eyes on them.

And then for me, what's my accountability as a child

to help relieve some of that burden?

Because,

and then the check-in, this is what I'm doing.

This is what I'm at.

Or even.

I gave myself two years.

At the end of those two years, I sat down with Gina Prince Pythewood.

Shout out to my friend, you know, Woman King, you know, old guard, all those things.

But we were, we were, this is after South Central.

There was an unemployment phase before Moesha in my, in my gap.

And I said, I, I, and so I tasted it, right?

I tasted it and I didn't feel like I was going to be able to keep going.

And I thought,

well, teach for America.

I can maybe go to, I wasn't going to teach.

I was like, you know what?

If I'm going to teach, I'm going to teach out in another country.

At least I'll get some travel out of this.

And she said, stay, stay an extra month.

I later found out she only said that because she didn't know what else to say.

And that's when Ralph Farquhar called me and said, hey, Mara, I got this show called Moesha.

And so you, the timing of life too, and the community.

I was also able in that communication.

Ralph only knew that because I had gone to his office when I had $50 in my pocket.

And I was trying to be his assistant just to stay in.

And he looked, he goes, Mara, you're not an assistant.

You're a a writer.

Great compliment.

Does not help my math problem.

I got to eat.

I got to eat.

So I feel communicating also

what your needs are in your community, being vulnerable enough to say, I have $50 in my pocket.

I don't know what else to do.

And somebody else offering something, whether it's not just encouragement

or a meal or something to keep us going

that matters who's around us.

That's so, that's so perfect.

And I'm just going to try and sum it all up, but you got another point.

I have

one other thing that I want to say is

just like you learned with your son that the next generation has a vision and a voice.

I think it's incumbent upon our generation of parents to realize that we

don't know their future.

We don't.

So we can't always have a strong opinion because the world will be very different for them.

For our kids today, especially for your kids who are younger.

And they're living in it.

Yes.

They're the ones living through it.

They're the ones who are out there in school, surveying the land, understanding whatever industries they're in.

And we're bystanders.

So there's got to be some.

I want to re-emphasize the trust

in the fact that

you give your kids tools.

You give them the best education that you can afford, which is not always a guarantee to anything.

But like you said, you give them love.

You give them, you know,

unwavering support, you know, not without criticism.

And then at some point, you got to let them

try out this new thing.

This process.

And I think in parenting, too, sometimes if we get out of our own way,

we can see them

and in seeing them we can help them while they're in our daily care yeah yeah i i

i'm not going to add anything other than sort of okay summing it up because i love your math

problem

example

but i think when we're what we don't do is we don't we have our own math equation and we impose it on our kids rather than teaching them how to create their own math problem.

Right.

So when we look at our kids, we see this gigantic algebra problem.

Yes.

And they've got a arithmetic problem.

And that's all they need to survive is make their arithmetic work.

We're looking at it as if they're in our orbit.

So I would say to Julia,

take into consideration this math problem, and your math problem isn't their math problem.

No.

Let them figure out what their math problem is.

And then to your point, both of you all's points, help them with their math problem.

Yes.

And then the other thing that was big there for Julia is

don't impose your fears on your kids.

And we all do that.

Yes.

Oh, my gosh.

That's why you need the good girlfriends.

Get it out in your community.

Don't take it off.

That's right.

The chair of angst or the girlfriends thing.

Just have it.

Talk about it.

And then keep your mouth shut and wait for the kids to need help.

Then help them.

Yeah.

Don't try and help them before.

So

it's a lot.

Yeah.

It's a lot.

But,

you know, the

work that you do, Mara, you know, just to bring these stories to light and with

humor,

with truth.

It really helps get the conversation going in so many ways.

And that's why Forever is such a success, along with everything else you're doing.

Thank you.

I just want to know

what's going on with girlfriends.

I love it that you asked you.

You know, you know.

I want to say,

are we going to get through this without asking about girlfriends?

I wanted to be William.

I wanted to be William.

Oh, my God.

Well, you sort of are.

You're kind of.

I named you after my brother.

That's my brother's name.

I named him after my brother.

That was my dude back in the day.

And I was like, man, he's like, you know, I put him there because back in the day, we were talking about we need to find a good black man.

And then some of my criticism of us, myself included, we were overlooking a lot of good brothers.

And William spoke up for it.

Well, it was like, we, I'm him.

I'm sitting around all y'all complaining.

Here, I'm standing right here.

I'm right here.

And you looking over because you think you got to have little edge, little bad boy, a little this, little bad.

Okay, I've okay, so okay, great.

But, girlfriends, thank you for bringing, you know, you know, this is our 25th anniversary.

No, 25th anniversary.

it is not

i keep my heart open actually tracy um persia jill golden we uh and reggie we've all we desire to do it but i as but what it's important to me is that we be able to tell the story with the proper resources there's a there's a way we tell stories in our business and it is time that we don't have to scratch and survive to tell this story we have given 172 episodes eight years, eight seasons of a lot of love and value.

This story is four generations deep now.

The 16-year-olds think I'm a rock star.

I'm like, oh my God, I love it.

But it's been global.

So this is a ripe, valuable story.

And so my conversation with God is I'm here.

I'm ready to go.

But it needs to be lined up with the right financial resources and support that it's going to treat it as a global success.

And because we're talking about girlfriends, the movie.

The movie.

I only want to do a movie.

To be honest with you, I think that I, you know,

I have a fresh pin for this.

There's a story.

For the girlfriends of, like, I think why girlfriends was so successful.

I was living that life.

I was 29 as Joan was 29.

And those, and those, I was, I was in the issues of the day.

And I think that's kind of like my journalism aspect, my truth through fiction, because I was living it or at least in proximity with my friends.

I was able to understand what we were going to, going through in real time.

And

I would love a fresh pin for

a new Girlfriends of tomorrow in a series.

But for Girlfriends, the movie,

I feel the, the, the, the audience deserves an ending.

Those characters deserve.

They deserve an ending.

The characters deserve.

I agree.

I'm with you.

And I'm with you.

I'm with you.

So I, I'm, yeah.

So I'm, yeah.

So

so make the check.

Somebody got a check.

Yeah.

Make the check.

And I love that you say that.

Make the check right.

Don't come nickel and dime.

Yeah.

This is worthy.

It has an audience.

You have to.

It is not a favor.

It is not a favor.

It is real beautiful business.

And I think, and I'm excited for the day.

I know it's coming.

I'm going to let it show up.

Oh, my God.

I've got to cry.

Oh, my God.

Sorry.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

But let it show up.

So I'm now curious

how it's going to show up.

Oh, my God.

You guys, I've had a hot flash.

Okay.

All right.

That's the way to end the episode right there.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, I mean, look, can you see?

Yes, I feel them.

Yeah, that means it's coming.

That's coming.

And I think there's going to, there's some prophecy here in this barn.

Yes.

I think maybe we're generating.

Yeah, I'm looking around at my.

Maybe my brother's here.

I told you.

He's here.

He's here.

You, yeah.

Are we just, oh my God.

He's here.

He's like, this is

some signs.

Yeah.

Well, it's wonderful.

We are excited.

I personally am excited.

This has been amazing.

This is amazing for me.

It's been as amazing, if not more amazing, than I thought.

I don't know about you.

I am just Craig Robinson.

I'm now starting to get goosebumps.

No, this has been a real treat.

Thank you so much for being with us.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you so much for everything you're doing because it is uplifting a whole lot of folks.

You don't even know it.

Thank you, Maura.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Hi, Michelle and Craig.

It's Nora McNerney.

I'm the host of a podcast called Thanks for Asking.

It's a call-in show where I just let people talk about how they're really doing.

And a lot of my listeners, myself included, are burned out recovering girl bosses.

I personally took some major steps back after eight to 10 years,

who's counting, of just non-stop go.

And as a result, my life is more manageable because I stopped doing things that were not paying me financially or emotionally.

And yet, and yet, and yet, I have a sense of, oh no, am I a loser?

Whenever I see peers, colleagues, friends, enemies doing things that I know I could do.

It's almost like I am addicted to stress.

And I know a lot of people probably feel the same same way.

Can you please give us some advice and or a pep talk?

I'm begging you.

Well, thanks, Nora.

It's Craig Robinson here.

And it's great to be on your show.

And it's Michelle Obama, his little sister.

She decided to join us too.

I think I'll go first and I will just say first and foremost, you're not a loser.

So pep talk number one, you're not a loser.

Some of the stress relievers that I have gone to in a pinch when I'm feeling like I am burnt out or I need some time away.

Um, the first, my first go-to would be exercise or something physical, whether that's walking or working out or or taking my kids to do a workout with them.

Um, so sort of coaching them, that relieves my stress level.

And one of the things that I do is that I try to plan the things that are stress-free for me, putting those kind of things on my schedule.

Because, you know, Craig, you can talk about going for a walk or watching TV or getting a workout in.

But if you're always working and you haven't planned it, you look up, your day is over, and you have not scheduled time for yourself.

So I've learned over the years that I have to put the things that give me joy, that give me a sense of

release, I have to put that stuff on my calendar before I put work on my calendar.

So if that's going to the gym, getting a workout in, if it's spending time with my family, if it's, you know, taking time to watch the, do the Netflix and chill, it might be helpful for you, Nora, to schedule that like you schedule all the work that you're doing that keeps you so stressed.

Put yourself on your calendar first.

Thanks again, Nora, for your great question.

You can hear Nora help her listeners with their dilemmas on her podcast, Thanks for Asking.

Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.