Shelf Incrimination

Hey, everybody, it's your judge John Hodgman.

This is a really wonderful episode about two women who are getting married and have a dispute about a book collection, but one of them also owns a Python and they feed that Python what we should call natural Python food.

Rats.

It might gross you out a little bit.

So, if it's not for you, check the show notes at maximumfund.org, where we'll give the timestamps for when that conversation happens, and you can just skip ahead of it.

But if you love conversations about Python's eating, this episode is for you. And the rest of it's for you, too.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
This week, shelf incrimination. Haley brings the case against her fiancé, Natasha.
Haley loves Natasha. Natasha loves books.

Natasha is training to be a librarian, and her personal library fills up 10 bookcases.

Haley can't wait to move in with Natasha this summer, but Haley wants to limit how many books Natasha can bring to their new place. Specifically, Haley wants to set the limit at zero books.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

It wasn't until I started reading and found books they wouldn't let us read in school that I learned you could be insane and happy and have a good life without being like everyone else.

Bailiff Jesse Thornton, please swear the litigants in. Haley and Natasha, please rise and raise your right hands.
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever. I do.
I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's written a number of books? I do.
I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Haley and Natasha, you may be seated for an immediate summary summary judgment.

One of your favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this virtual courtroom. Oh, Haley, you bring the case.
Why don't you guess first?

It is not even close to either of my prepared guesses, and I have no idea. So I'll say the sillier one, which is the musical episode of Arthur, where they all get library cards.

You're talking about the famous cartoon, Arthur. Yes, absolutely.

Everybody that you meet has a different different point of view. Ziggy Marley, singing the theme from Arthur, permanently tattooed on my brain from being a parent to young children at one point.

Haley, your fiancé,

the guest of the cartoon Arthur. I also have no idea, but

I'm going to do my prepared guess, which is an outtake from famed LeVar Burton TV show, Reading Rainbow. Reading Rainbow, that's a great one.
Levar Burton has been a guest on this podcast. Amazing.

It was amazing. But you know what? So are both of you.
Even though all guesses are wrong. We're not going to sing the Reading Rainbow song.
I don't know that. Butterfly in the sky.
Here we go.

Come on. Butterfly in the sky.
No, no, Jesse. I can fly twice as high.
Jesse.

High. Let Natasha do it.
She's a librarian and trainer. Let her take her solo.
I mean, we don't have to.

Butterfly in the sky. I can fly twice as high.

Take a look. It's in a book.
Reading Rainbow.

You know what I love about that? I Reading Rainbow, I love LeVar Burton, but you know, he came to my life via Star Trek of the Next Generation and Roots.

Reading Rainbow is not part of my life for some reason. I think I was aged out of it a little bit.
That makes sense. But you know what?

What I love about it, I never thought about it until this moment. I don't know who wrote the theme song to Reading Rainbow, but I love picturing them at their desk saying, How do I start this song?

How do I start the reading? What's the first lyric going to be? I know. I'm going to diss a butterfly.

I actually saw Reading Rainbow, like a vinyl special edition of Reading Rainbow at a record shop one time, and I didn't buy it for you.

You didn't buy it for Haley or you didn't buy it because you know Haley hates things. I didn't buy it because I know Haley hates things.
Right.

Even if they're wonderful, heartfelt gifts, Haley doesn't want clutter in the home. Haley balance.
I think it's a fair point to bring. Haley talks about himself in the third person.

I think that Haley, I think it's a fair point to bring up at this, at this moment, in my defense, that Haley is the type of person who throws away a card as soon as she's read it.

We'll talk more about that later. But first,

you both got it wrong. Would it help if I gave you another quote about books from the same person? Maybe.

This person said, we need to make books cool again. If you go home with somebody and they don't have books, don't hug and kiss them.

But this person didn't say hug and kiss. This person said a stronger word.

That does make it much more familiar because I've heard a lot of internet discourse about that quote, but I couldn't name who said it. I have no idea.

I don't know if this was in one of his many books, but the one that I remember. most distinctly reading as a young person.

And like the books that he references in the first quote, this was one of those books that they didn't have at school that helped me understand that you could be different and weird and happy and have a good life without being like anyone else.

It was John Waters. The book that I'm thinking of is Crackpot, his first book, which is incredible still.
All of his books are great. Okay, well, let's bring this back to the case, or shall I say,

book case at hand.

But before we talk about that, Haley, because this is your dispute with Natasha, your fiancé,

let's go back to the beginning because I want to clear this up right away.

How did the two of you meet? So we met on Bumble. It's not a super exciting story.

What is an exciting story that Natasha likes to tell is that our first date was at a Witch's Vale night market. So there were many a witchy little booth.
We bought each other candles.

We bought each other other presents. We listened to my friend's band, which sounds like being sung to sleep in a haunted barn.
We did do that.

I almost let's let's plug your friend's witch band, please. Shout out Willow Switch.
Natasha, what is a witch's night market?

A witch's night market is a nighttime street market run by a store called Seven Sisters Apothecary on Dundas Street in London, Ontario. Very exciting.

And it's just a bunch of like kind of weird, crafty vendors. So like there's people who make candles, there's people who make

like

decorated skulls. There was a broom maker who who was there.
There's live music, thus the reference to Willow Switch.

Are either of you Wiccan? Are you witchy? Are you, is this

a passion or a religion for you or just fun stuff?

We're witch curious. Yeah.
Witch curious. I'll say.
All right. I enjoy to pull a tarot every once in a while.
So whose idea was the date?

It was mine.

I really wanted to go to the Witches Vale night market. And I don't leave my house on my own.
Haley, you wouldn't have gone on your own.

No, she hates to leave the house, which is part of why I like it for my house to look so beautiful. Well, speaking of houses, you are about to make a home together.
You're engaged. Congratulations.

Thank you. You currently live, if I understand this correctly, separately in London, Ontario.
So we currently live in my apartment in London, Ontario

with my stuff. And Natasha's stuff currently lives in a storage unit in London, Ontario.
As of this past week, before that, my stuff lived in an apartment that I paid for just cuz.

Well, you're going to combine households and move in together to a brand new apartment in London later this year, right? Yes. Wonderful.

When do you move? When do we need to solve this by? Our move-in date is July 1st. July 1st, that's wonderful.
So, Haley,

books are the problem here.

I love books. It's a really good starting place.
My mom is a librarian. We can unpack the freud of that later if you wish.

I just find that when you're not in your,

your mommy is a librarian. My mommy is the librarian.
Yeah. And the woman you're marrying is going to become a librarian.
The woman I'm marrying would like to become a librarian. Yeah.
Interesting.

I did say we could unpack the freud of it later, but we can also do it right now, I guess. Pull off the band-aid.

Do you have more questions about that part? No, no, I don't.

That's perfectly natural, by the way.

We all marry librarians like our mommy.

When one is not in the act of rating the book, I find it to be visual clutter.

So when I've lived on my own, I have one bookshelf where I've kept some of my books from grad school that I foresee myself possibly using in the future, like three books that have been given to me as presents, and that's all the book.

book I have to own. So you don't have, you don't have zero books.
You have a very small number of books. I have fewer than 20.
I would say that you have fewer than 50. I would guess 35.

Somewhere between

19 and 34. Yes.

Which is not zero books, by the way. It's not zero books, but it's a very manageable amount of books.
What is your favorite book? Is it

Fahrenheit 451?

I do love that book, but I would say I don't actually own my favorite book. I think my favorite book is The Night Circus by Erin Morgenstern, which I could find at my library.

I have great news for you. You're about to own it.

Well, I'll be the literal, semi-literal judge of that.

Oh, no.

But you share, you share taste in books. It sounds like a little bit.
At least there's overlap in the Aaron Morgenstern department. Yes.
I'd say we both read a lot of popular fiction.

So I'm sure there is a lot of overlap. We both read a lot of queer YA.

It's not that I think her taste is bad. I just don't want to be surrounded by a million and 12 books in our very small urban apartment.
A million and 12 is a large number. Have you seen the boxes?

I don't, in my defense, I don't think there's a million and 12. By the way, it's not only a large number, it's also a very interesting and cool and specific number.

1,012.

This is true. But Natasha, you are an expert book amount estimator.
I am.

You estimated that Haley has between 19 and 34 books. How many books would you estimate you have in your collection? Okay.

So I should have thought about this before you asked this question. I should have known it was coming, but...
I just thought of it. There's no way you could could have known.

That makes me feel better. I think that I probably have

about 400 books. 400 books.
But that is including fiction, nonfiction, and like reference books. So there's like art books that I'm going to reference.
And then there's like.

Haley, I see. And the viewers on YouTube will see that you are.
very politely raising your hand. You would like to object.

But I just, before you object, I will sustain your objection before you object. Natasha, I don't think that you need to be defending yourself here because you know who listens to this podcast, right?

There is unquestionably, first of all, most of them have an MLS degree.

Second of all, there is no question in my mind that there is a non-zero number of listeners who have now turned off this episode going, only 400? I thought this was going to be about something.

400 is a low guess, but I didn't want to like overestimate and embarrass myself. Haley objects.
Haley, what's your objection?

I was just going to say that I think we have very different understandings of the term reference.

What do you mean? I think that

Natasha considers the term reference to mean anything

that anyone may ever briefly wish to reference, whereas I would consider reference to be things that are up to date and not easily findable and like actual valuable reference.

All right. What is a quote-unquote reference book that Natasha has that you consider to be disposable?

So, a lot of her books are discards from the library, like they've been rescued.

And libraries, which I know because my mommy is the librarian, often discard books when they are out of date or no longer

what is needed by the library or I would argue anyone. You don't have to keep calling your mom mommy.
That was a thing I did.

I mean, I think it's absolutely adorable.

Honestly, she does it more than just now.

I mean, if that's natural, if that's natural to you,

that's great. I love it.
But I just didn't want you to be doing that following my lead necessarily. You did call it as it was.
All right.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
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Let's take a look at the first exhibit. This is a photograph of Natasha's books all packed up and ready to go.

Exhibit A is available on our social media as well as on our showpage at maximumfund.org. And if you're watching the YouTube, you're probably looking at it right now.
These,

I don't know, these, they're one, two, three, four. Do you know how many boxes these are before I?

So

28. I'm counting a million and 12.
Yeah, I kind of, I was just up to about a million and nine, and I thought probably there were another three behind there. Yeah.

I would also like it to be known that those were the books that were in her apartment that we just moved her out of.

There are an undisclosed amount of books in the storage unit that I've already said is between her and God.

Why won't you disclose the number of books in your storage unit, Natasha? It's not that I won't disclose them. It's that I've not had an opportunity to count them in a while.

And it's between her and God. According to Haley, Haley gave me that, not under duress.
She gave me that. It's a non-judgment storage unit.
There's a judgment storage unit and a non-judgment one.

Just so that I can get an overall estimate, we have these boxes here. We have boxes in the storage unit.
You had said that your book collection would fill

of various sizes,

10 bookcases. Is that the total collection? The 400 and 10 bookcases, or are there more?

So the 10 bookcases is the 400 that I currently have in my possession. Were I to bring the storage unit books out, that would probably be one more shelf, possibly closer to 500 books.

Another 100 books you are willing to disclose might be in that secret storage unit. Yes.
All right. Your honor, it's books all the way down.

Look, again, 500, like I'm looking around my office here. I don't, I guess I have about a million and 12 books.

I don't have 500, but I don't feel like that's a huge number for someone who really loves books. It's certainly a huge number for someone who has a problem with books.

Haley, you say you love books, you love reading them, but you don't like keeping them and having them around. Explain.
I don't like watching them gather dust.

I have stuff that I like displayed.

When I have lived on my own, I've been a big fan of the William Morris quote that I'll paraphrase as have nothing in your house that you don't know to be useful or believe to be beautiful.

I think that's a misquote. That's Mari Kondo said that.

I think William Morris said it first. I'm pretty sure you're right.
I'm pretty sure you're right.

Given that I don't think they were alive at the same time. I am a big fan of Mary Kondo.
I love letting go of things that don't bring me joy.

Now, what I remember, my mommy is no longer living, but I remember my mommy was into William Morris.

What I remember was like wallpaper designer interior designer right tell me tell me who william morris was yeah okay so this is like a snippet from my third year women's studies fashion and fabric course yeah um but a member of the british arts and crafts movement so like trying to blur the line between fine art and craft and like bringing a lot of women's work into being seen art.

So like, and a socialist. So big fans.
Now, all right, let's think about this new apartment. Have you picked it out already? We have.
We signed a lease. All right.

And it'll just be the two of you living there? Yes. No other creatures of any kind? Oh.
Oh, a bunch of creatures.

We have three cats and a snake. Oh, you want to talk about creatures, John? Yeah, we can get into creatures.
I want to talk about creatures. I want to talk about all creatures, great and small.

And they are. Exhibit B.

Jesse, may I direct your attention to Exhibit B, the snake, Melvin?

The existence of Melvin works in my favor, I would like to say, as I never desired to have a snake. I was not anti-snake, but I never desired to have a snake.

And we got Melvin knowing that I would be moving in.

Oh, so I mean, I just presumed that Melvin had grown up with one of you, Haley in this case, I would have guessed, that, and that you, you, you know, he, he got grandfathered into the relationship, but the two of you acquired Melvin together.

Oh, did you get him at the Witch's Night Market by any chance?

That would be amazing, but he is a rescue. He is a rescue.
A rescue snake. Tell me about Melvin Ailey.
What's he all about? What kind of snake is he? What does he like to eat? What does he do all day?

We live very strange lives in southwestern Ontario, so I will introduce you to another one of our pals. I have heard the rumors.

It's the northern Florida. Another one of my pals is an animal welfare officer.
So she apprehended Melvin from an apartment that he had been left in after people had been evicted.

And after a certain amount of time, he became adoptable. And I've always wanted a bulb python.
And I asked my beloved because this was.

I think a year and a bit into dating. We weren't living together.
We were talking about moving in together. It was in fact about a month pre-proposal.
Ah.

Did you propose with the snake instead of a ring? I did not propose with the snake. That would have been good though.
Yeah.

So I asked Tash if we could go look at this snake. I had a really great time holding him.
And I think that at that point, she felt bad saying no.

So he spends his days in a glass tank. He's got some substrate.
He's got got a little like water dish that he could lay in if he wanted to, but he usually just chills in one of his hides.

A lot of foliage because they like to feel like cluttered and covered, unlike me. Yeah.

And he eats a rat every three weeks. He mostly just chills.
He's super cute. I wonder how does William Morris feel about snakes in the house? That's a great question.
And I wish I had an answer.

So he's a python. He is a ball python.
Yes. And how, how big, how big is hard to say because this photo is all snoot.
Yeah. How big is he? Like, what's his length? Would you guess?

He's like three feet. It's interesting that you're someone who prizes tidiness

and yet you want a tank full of leaves and snake skin and snake and presumably

thawed mammals for the eating. Oh, you got to get those thawed mammals out of there if they don't eat them.
You probably don't want to know why

uh

i do want to know now i wasn't gonna ask i currently don't know natasha you may want to leave the room

the thing about the decomposition process when they're no longer frozen is that other reptile owners have had them explode um and that's not a great scene in the tag natasha i'm not sure that you followed this exactly no i but i followed it no let me just reiterate for you and the listener natasha you're not like a peaceful meat freak like your fiancé so john's gonna explain this so you can follow it thank you so much

yeah so let me just explain it again so the snake eats what frozen rats is that right so you thought it and then you offer it and it in this case is the body of a rat where I guess the more pertinent question is, where will Melvin live in your new apartment?

Great question.

Very important question. Um, we have not decided.
I think our top contenders right now are

the office and the living room

between the two of them. Yes, certainly not traveling.

How many rooms are in the apartment? I know I'm going to be jealous about this London Ontario real estate. It's a two-bedroom apartment.
Two-bedroom.

So the one-bedroom is going to be a shared office space.

There's like kind of an open concepty kitchen, eat and dining room, living room space. So you're going to share one bedroom for resting quietly.
And then another bedroom is going to be an office.

Yes, yes. And who's going to use that office for the most part? It's going to be shared.
I have a one work from home day a week where I usually do paperwork or like run groups and stuff.

So I'll probably use it more, but like we want two desks in there. Yeah.
Cause I do art on the side

um so like that's where my art computer is going to be set up and possibly some other accoutrement

i want to ask you about where you want if i were to rule in your favor natasha where you want your books to go but before we do let's there are some other animal companions to introduce so let's go to exhibit c There are two cats in this photo.

Pearl is on the left. And it says here, she is full of crimes.
She is. And then Lola is on the right.
It says she is old and grumpy. And boy, is she.

What's really fantastic about that picture is that was, I think, at the period of in the relationship where Natasha started sleeping over.

And once she went home, that was the face I would get because Lola and Pearl did predate the relationship. So and they did not enjoy having someone over.

And they're both, and they're both on your side of the family, Haley. Yes.
Yeah. They're her stepdaughters.
There's a third cat. My stepson.
Keddie. Keddie, who is a himbo, it says here.
He is.

He has very little brains, but he is very beautiful.

Is this your cat, Natasha? This is my cat.

I inherited him because a friend had planned to have her cats spayed and neutered. in March of 2020.
That's a wonderful story. I was just mostly curious.
You're bringing this cat to the relationship.

Yes. Yes, I am.
We have one more photo here of all three cats together. Albeit in, well, together.

One is lying in a discarded, perfect spot for a cat, a discarded printer paper box, looks like to me. The other is hiding out in their little enclosure.

And then that old crumpy cat, Lola, is just basking on the carpet. That's what she does.
It is her favorite way to be. And this is a photo from your current apartment.

This is peaceful coexistence. And these are the, and behind it, there's a bookshelf, which has a wonderful illustration of the Great Lakes.
Big fan. And looks like

maybe nine or ten books. This is your one bookshelf.
Yeah. So that is my one bookshelf.
I do have some decorative books on another bookshelf.

I also think there was some nail polish that I was trying to get rid of.

There's a lot of nail polish and nail polish remover. Most of that nail polish is now gone.
Um, is this the nice objects you're trying to protect?

So, again,

I'll let our bailiff Jesse Thorne express the skepticism that I feel.

I'm looking, I'm looking at a two-shelf bookcase here. I'm seeing some listing paperback books.

I'm seeing a computer printout of a silhouette of the Great Lakes.

And I'm seeing some

acetone. Lots.

One, two,

three,

four glass containers full of nail polish.

One of my friends also hates that print of the Great Lakes, so she'll be really happy to hear that you also do, Jesse.

In front of it, I see some kind of cat tent, and I see two abandoned cardboard boxes. That's true.
And one,

one cat that's trying to get the power of the sun into its body through its hands.

So that's the most important thing to Lola is Lola's comfort. Yes.
Allie's made this argument that she's got an aesthetic, right?

Which is more spare and minimal than yours, that uses books primarily as

an additional accoutrement to other decorative items. And what she's showing instead is a couple of junk shelves.

Haley, now you may defend yourself.

So Natasha can attest afterwards that that picture is not a great representation of the aesthetic.

What was happening at that time was I was trying to get rid of some of my stuff, including books, which also stresses her out to make space for her stuff, including books.

So I think.

That's the nail polish had been tucked behind my stack of social work books I I didn't consider useful anymore that I was trying to get rid of. So once it became revealed, it had to be gotten rid of.

So this was a staging area for stuff you were going to get rid of. I would like to object.

Sustained. Those.
I guess that means talk. Yes.

Thank you.

I forgot for a second. So those nail polish containers have been used as bookends as long as I have been visiting that house.
That's true. I haven't found bookends I like.

What were some of the things that you were getting rid of haley aside from the nail polish in order to accommodate natasha i've gotten rid of some mugs because she has a whole bunch of mugs i need to get rid of a bunch of clothing if these things were really painful sacrifices to you you probably would have brought it up already oh they're not to me i love getting rid of things right well you and william morris right natasha me and william morris yeah and marie kondo but haley the sticking point is these these books so let's get into this very specifically now Natasha you've got four to five hundred books you would like them all to be in the new apartment yes or no okay so I would like most of them to be in the new apartment I'm not opposed to some light pruning right

pruning but not culling pruning but not culling yes I want culling there are books that I've collected for a purpose. Like sometimes I grab a book for a friend that I think they'll really like.

And so like, it would be a reasonable ask for me. So you grab a book for a friend that you think they'll really like and then you never give it to them.
You hold on to it?

So a lot of my friends live like, they live in Toronto and I live here or

they're just like, we don't see each other that often, but I know that they'd really like that book. So I just like

to grab it. You're waiting to give it to them.
Yeah. It's it's the same approach as getting like presents for people like throughout the year.
Yeah.

And then like Christmas comes and you're like, oh, great. They're all ready for you.
Yeah.

That's why

I have in my kitchen 35 Vitamix mixers

just waiting. Jesse, I got to remember the next time I see you to give you 10 Vitamix mixers.

Thank you. Nantastic.

Look, let's not sidetrack to these, to the books for a friendly, talk about the books that belong in your home. How many books do you want in your home? 100, 200, 300, or 400 or 500.

I would like 400 books in my home. 400.
And where do you want them? All over the place?

So I think that it's a very reasonable thing to have some books in the bedroom, like one bookshelf in the bedroom. It can just be on my side of the bed.
Right.

Since you do not desire to have a bookshelf in the bedroom.

And then we could have one in the living room, like next to

the couch, because that's a good place to read. And then I think we could have like two or three in the office, like along the back wall.

Let's just say, how many books, how many bookcases did we just describe there?

I think she got to five. Let's say five.
Yeah. Let's say five.

Let's just say Natasha wants five bookcases in the places that she describes. Haley, how does that make you feel? That makes my brain itchy.
All right, tell me about that.

What's the brain itchiness that's going on?

The brain itchiness is knowing that we own them and have to dust around them and have to look at them and account for them in our planning and that they're not really being used for anything.

They're just a lot of space. Account for them in our planning.
Account for them in our planning. Meaning what?

Like right now, we're pretty settled on London, Ontario. But also, like, if Natasha gets her MLIAS, she has a lot more flexibility.
I can do my job anywhere.

You might move again in the future.

We might move again in the future. And I don't want to have to have a separate moving truck for books.

It's only one moving truck's worth of books. It's, I would say, it's like half a moving truck's worth of books.
Maybe everything else in it.

Everything else fit.

Each book is not very heavy. Exactly.
Honestly, books are pretty heavy, but they fit into boxes very well.

And I bet if you ask a professional mover, and if you're a listener who is a professional mover, please weigh in on this with the emphasis on way.

Like if you were, if you were moving, like,

if you had the choice between moving a room full of books versus a room full of delicate floor lamps, books all the way.

If the books are in book boxes, I think that's the central like people put

people put books in non-book boxes all the time. That's nuts.
That's how people get hurt. But I would never do that.
In fact, I went to Indigo, the Barnes, and Noble of Canada and got 40 book boxes.

Natasha, I saw a picture of Haley's books. They were pretty sorry-looking.

And I don't mean to reduce books to aesthetic objects, but they are both

practical, useful objects and aesthetic ones. And I think Haley

is correct that if your purpose for most books is a practical one,

those books are probably affordably available secondhand on the internet or free from a library.

So

I want to know:

are your books as sad-looking as Haley's books?

I would actually strongly, I feel confident saying that my books are less sad-looking than Haley's for two reasons. One, I am the person with the clean gene in the relationship.

I like things to be clean, if not tidy,

often not tidy. But here we go.
I do want things to be clean. And many of her books have been chomped on by Pearl.

She's full of crimes. My books have been chomped on by nobody.
Your books are unchomped. Unchomped.
Until Pearl gets at them. Usually, well, here's the thing.

There's no space for her to get at them if we fill the bookcase. You're thinking about dusting around a bookcase that has many holes.
If you fill the whole width of the bookcase with book,

there's nothing to dust. Haley, you mentioned that thinking about these bookshelves in your apartment makes your brain itchy.

You talked about it makes you uncomfortable to think about where you're going to move them again if you have to move again sometime. You mentioned a lot of issue about dusting.

What's really going on here? Is it really just make you uncomfortable? Do you think that you will be driven to distraction living in a home that has one or two bookshelves in each room?

Yeah. So I think the dusting is important.
Re, the three cats.

They do.

And us. We all have a lot of hair.

So there is like, I think the dusting is a fair consideration. I also do have like diagnosed OCD and I find it to be.
a lot of things to focus on and look at.

I use my brain a lot at my job and I like to just be able to like relax at home and see my art and my things and not see a lot of books, which do feel like clutter to me when they're not being read.

So I was going to say, you know, what if Natasha, you know, you thaw the rats in this relationship. What if Natasha were to dust the books, but that wouldn't give you any comments? I'd still see them.

You would still see them. I wish she could have her own book apartment.
If she could have a book apartment that was, that I didn't have to see, it would be like, go crazy.

I was hoping that this apartment was going to have like 17 rooms in it. Oh, if I

so that there could be a book room or a library, I guess they call them, when you're playing Clue.

Just out of hypothetical, if the books were all in one room with a door that could close, would that be okay for you, Haley? Or would you still get itchy brain?

It would be better, but I know they're there. Are there any other triggers that cause itchy brain? I think we landed kind of on books because that is the bulk of her stuff.

She's got a lot of stuff,

period. So we are doing, I would say, a major pruning of stuff in general.
And I was hoping for a culling of the books.

I think for a variety of reasons, it's really hard for her to let go of things physically and metaphorically. And it's quite easy for me to do that.
So I'm respectful of that.

But I think I will also say this is not nice either, but she has said that she likes living with me and not living with all her stuff. Oh.

Okay. Is that a true quote, Natasha? That is true.
And what does that refer to?

However, so it does refer to the fact that like I have enjoyed living in her apartment, which is a fully unpacked apartment as well, because for the past, like,

probably three or four years, I have never, I haven't lived in an apartment that was fully unpacked, which is partly to do with me, partly to do with previous partners, partly to do with the fact that I moved a bunch.

And so I've liked having a fully set up space. And her space is fully set up and it is very nice, despite the ratty books and various produce boxes.

Natasha, you mentioned that you have the clean gene as opposed to what I've sometimes referenced as the tidy gene, which is to say sometimes and not uncommonly in married or otherwise cohabitating romantic couples, one person is tidy, i.e.

me, and one person is not very tidy, but is more focused on hygienic, I guess you would say.

I'm actually pretty focused on both. I would say Haley is also focused on both.
Like she is very hygienic. Right.
I know. But, you know, I saw that photo.

This is what I'm getting at. I'm not wondering.
Like, I was going to ask, do either of you have the tidy gene, really?

So I will admit that Haley, when she like has the time and the energy, she does like commit to having a very tidy home. Like when we have guests over, it is very tidy.
Everything has a place.

Everything is like orderly.

But I will say that like, I'm more likely to sweep a floor than you. That's fair.
Okay. All right.
She's also more likely to leave stuff where it doesn't go. Right.

And I understand that the photo that you sent, you were trying to show a photo of cats, not a perfect representation of your ideal decluttered, minimalist, serene aesthetic.

No, I would have sent a different shelf for that. Hailey, if you were going to have one bookshelf in your apartment, would you like that, whoever's books it is?

Would you

you would be more comfortable if that bookshelf was not packed with books, right? Yeah. But instead, like a few books and then some nail polish, maybe something other than nail polish.

Right? A few books, the defrostic rat. No, I was thinking more like when you think of a even one packed bookshelf, how does that make you feel? It stresses me out.
I, yeah. Because they're too.

I don't like it aesthetically. It feels cluttered.
It feels cluttered. Yeah.
And when things feel cluttered, how does that make you feel emotionally and bodily?

I don't think it affects me emotionally as much as it does, like cognitively. Maybe a little bit of anxiety.

But I think it mostly just makes it hard to focus and think because it feels like there's just like stuff coming from all angles.

And Natasha, when you think about lightly pruning, pruning, or even culling your collection, like let's say

there was a national emergency and it's election day in Canada tomorrow or whatever. So there might be today.
Yeah, who knows?

Let's say there was some impetus where it's like you have to get rid of half of your books. When you think about that, how does that make you feel emotionally and

bodily if you have a reaction to it?

It also causes anxiety.

Like,

I think the thing for me is that like a lot of books carry and a lot of my possessions carry like an emotional significance.

So like that's the big difference between Haley and me is that like I see a book as like a memory or a like a potential resource often, but like a memory, a gift.

Like I think about where it came from. versus Haley, you're like, does it serve a purpose? If it doesn't serve a purpose right now, we don't need it.

But for me, like, I feel like the potential for purpose or

like the fact that it was gifted in kindness means a lot to me. And I don't want to,

I don't want to take that for granted. Right.
I want to be clear here before I go into my chambers and make my ruling.

You want there to be

none of Natasha's books in this apartment. I think I said one.
I don't think I said one. Oh, I'm sorry.
Excuse me. I might have been being provoked.

They rhyme. They rhyme.
I could have made a mistake there. I mean, the difference between none and one of 500 books.

No, one shelf. Oh, one shelf.
One shelf. I was going to say, what book is it?

It's possible I said no shelves being provocative. I think I would be fine with one if I had to, I guess.
One normal-sized bookshelf. It could even be a big one.
Packed with books.

Preferably not packed? Packed.

You know, Natasha's going to get as many books as she can in there. She might even put some books on top of the shelf.
I might.

One of her friends suggested double shelving them, and I can't with that. That would be

richie. You would know that those books are behind those other books.
I would know. Yeah.
And they'd be taunting me. Yeah.
Just like I know that there are robots underwater at Disneyland. Exactly.

Natasha, how many bookshelves do you want in this house? I think that five would be a reasonable compromise. I would be having my current collection.

And it would be- You would be having H-A-L-V-I-N-G. Halving, yeah.
Halving it. Right.
That would be a real culling. It would be a real culling.
I feel that I could possibly do it,

especially as in this new apartment, there is a garage.

And whilst I have been told that I should not be allowed to have a garage,

it does exist. Who's telling you you're not allowed to have a garage?

My very best friend and compatriot, Alex, was like, you should never have access to a garage or a basement just to hold your stuff. Oh, because you hold on to things.
Yes. Anything other than books?

Any other collections or

I, so I love a knickknack. Um, books are the most significant.
I'm not sure. This is just when I love a knickknack.
I'm not sure if this is going to work out for you, too. I know.
It's a real problem.

Really? How do you feel about a knickknack? I like a knickknack. I don't like as petty as she has.
She likes a singular knickknack. Tell me about your knicks and knacks.

My knicks and knacks are often weird, kind of kitschy, decorative items, often what one might call ugly.

One of my favorite,

one of my favorite knickknacks is a

like tiny silver

bottle opener slash corkscrew that looks like a bull. And it is objectively objectively ugly, but I think it's the most delightful thing in the world.
And I got it for $12 at a thrift shop.

Part of the problem also is that she is an artist. She has a lot of great ideas.
She's not super strong with the follow-through.

And so when the idea hasn't been followed through with, it's just a desiccated pomegranate that hasn't been painted off. It's going to be painted.

You have an old pomegranate? I

three desiccated pomegranates currently. Why would you paint a bunch of desiccated pomegranates when you've got a freezer full of dead rats?

I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to go in my chamber and peruse my library.
I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Natasha, how are you feeling right now about your chances? I feel medium. I feel that

a compromise may be

coming

because I think that zero books or one bookshelf is a little bit unreasonable. And I am seeing the books behind Judge John Hodgman, which implies that he does like a collection.

How are you feeling, Haley? I'm feeling cautiously optimistic. I think that when you see the boxes, you get the sense that this is an out-of-hand problem.

I don't want her to be really sad, but I want to feel like we've got some balance.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a minute.

If you like too many podcasts, you'll love SoundTeap with John Lick Roberts. It's got clips from all your favorite podcasts, such as Diary of a Tiny CEO.

Leonard Sprague, tell me how you make your money. I go to the beach and I steal people's towels.
Remember armor.

Don't remember the trend of everyone whacking themselves on the head with hammers and mallets when they wanted to lose weight. And LT John's lobbily songs.
I'm here today with Kiki D. Hello Kiki D.

Hello Elton.

There's dozens of episodes to catch up on and brand new episodes going out right now. So if you want far far far too many podcasts then look for Sound Teap on maximum fun.

Boop boop.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show, Let's Learn Everything. So let's do a quick progress check.
Have we learned about quantum physics? Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we? Yes, we have. Same episode, actually.
Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters? Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news. We still haven't learned everything yet.
Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well. There is still a lot to learn.
Woo! I'm Dr. Ella Hubber.
I'm regular Tom Long. I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too. And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case. I have a really cool event coming up in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Well, whatever you do, do not tell me or anyone else about it.

No, the reverse of that. What's going on? Our friends at SF Sketchfest invited me to moderate a panel discussion.
Yes.

If it's two people, does it count as a panel? It's a panel discussion. They're a panel of two.

I'm going to be hosting an evening called A Conversation with Kruk and Kuipe. Now, John, I wouldn't expect you to know who Kruk and Kuipe are.
I don't.

Mike Kruko and Dwayne Kuyper are the decades-long now

television voices of the San Francisco Giants. They are agreed by many to most

to be the best baseball, local baseball play-by-play team in the country.

They are two of the sweetest,

funniest examples of non-toxic masculinity that exists on earth, as far as I'm concerned, especially given that they're both former professional athletes.

They are just two of the best guys, two brilliant broadcasters, total inspirations to me. I'm so excited to be hosting this event.

It is in our old stomping grounds, the Sydney Goldstein Theater on May 15th. You can get tickets at sfsketchfest.com if you're in the San Francisco Bay Area.

I mean, I know people who are literally flying in for this event because they're so excited to hear from Kruk and Kuipe.

I am like over the moon that I get to host this. I got to say something.
I don't know anything about San Francisco Giants baseball or baseball in general.

I certainly never heard of Kruk and Kite before. But knowing what this means to both you and the city of San Francisco, I want to be there.
It sounds like an incredible event.

And you can't go wrong with that Sydney Goldstein Theater. What a beautiful palace of baseball conversation, it turns out.
Any baseball fans in the Bay Area who don't

come to this show, all I can say to them is grab some pine meat. That's what Kruko likes to say.
Grab some pine meat. Grab some pine meat? Yeah, grab some pine, comma, meat.
Meat is the name of

the person that just struck out. And it's time for him to grab some pine, which is to say, go back and sit back on the bench.
Go sit on the bench. Go sit back on the bench.
Grab some pine meat.

I also want to mention that this week. On Bullseye, we have two really great interviews, one of which is with our friend Gene Gray,

guest bailiff on this program about her brand new book. The other is one that we did with the legendary costume designer, designer, Bob Mackey.

We figured this would be a perfect pairing for Gene because you know Gene aspires to have a Bob Mackey gown lifestyle. Oh, for sure.

But we went, we drove out to Palm Springs to interview Bob Mackey, who is 85 years old and every bit as sharp as he ever has been. We sat down in his incredible, vibrant,

wild home. Yeah.
His co-workers were there. We said, you got to check out the pot.
You got to check out the powder room.

So we went into the bathroom, which was wall to wall, like literally every inch of the wall was covered by photographs of legendary people wearing Bob Mackey's costumes. Yeah.

You know, not, not just Sharon, Elton, John, but, you know, Pink and everybody else who's ever worn Bob Mackey. It was such a great time.
So two great interviews.

on this week's Bullseye with Jesse Thorne episodes or together on the radio. And hey, Bob, how about this? You think maybe some nerds listen to this show, John?

I mean, I've been going through the data and it does seem that some nerds listen to this show. If you're a Star Wars person, and I'm a medium Star Wars guy, but

I love Andor.

It's my favorite show. You know how I feel about it.
How do you feel about it? And or. Why not both? Give me all of it.
Yeah. Uh-huh.

I remember that from when we went on tour, and you said it a lot of times. I said a lot of times.
Doesn't even make sense as a joke, but come on.

Tony Gilroy, the the creator and showrunner of Andor, is also on Bullseye. He was on, as this is released last week.
It was a really great conversation.

Folks might know that he also is one of the most celebrated screenwriters and script doctors in Hollywood. He also wrote and directed Michael Clayton, among other films,

which is, you know, stands in the annals of the greatest dad movies of all time. For sure.

And that is another great conversation. So go search for Bullseye with Jesse Thorne in your favorite podcast app.

Bullseye is more essential than ever. Go search for Bullseye with Jesse Thorne in your podcast app or call up your local NPR affiliate and demand that they carry it if they don't already.

Hey, um, I've got a fun thing to announce that I just found out about last night. I got a text sort of late at night from some friends of ours saying, Hey, Hodgman,

do you want to be guest on our live show in Boston on May 17th? Signed, The Doughboys. Oh, wow.
I said yes. Oh, wow.

I haven't been on stage with those guys in Boston since before the pandemic, and it's going to be a lot of fun. I happen to know that John Gabris is also going to be a guest.
I don't know.

I love those guys, and we're going to have a great time together. So

I hope you all show up if you want to. Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. First order of business.
I'm going to help you both out.

Some very simple orders that's going to alleviate some of the problems in your life. Then we're going to deal with the big stuff.
One, obviously, I've got a solution already for the pomegranates.

Throw them away.

Paint rats instead. Consolidate.

Consolidate and join your lives together in this way. Yeah.

Okay. That's what marriage is all about.

As far as that silver corkscrew that's shaped like a bull, give that to Jesse Thorne, sell it on consignment and put this on shop,

obviously. But as far as the books are concerned, I mean, this is art, right?

Books,

whether or not you're moving them, are heavy,

they are heavy in boxes, and when they're on a shelf, they're heavy in your mind. I am from a generation

not that long ago, the last generation, perhaps, to presume that your apartment or home, if you were lucky enough to have one, was going to be full of books. It was just part of who we were

in my cohort of friends and family. Even those of us who are not big readers necessarily, it was the same thing as having a kitchen table.
You were going to have a bookshelf.

There were going to be books. Those of you who are watching on YouTube know that I have bookshelves behind me.

These are these weird bookshelves that make it look look like I've just stacked books on top of each other. Don't worry, they're shelves.

And if you were watching before I went into my chambers and are now looking now, can you see the two books that I pulled out of the shelf?

I can see that you took them and I don't know what they are. Yeah.

Well, I was thinking about this because a lot of these books are books that I've carried around with me for my whole, well, for a lot of my life.

Like The Invention of Argentina by Nicholas Shumway. Can we get a publication date on that? Yes, I can help you because it's right here in the book.
See?

1991.

But I do know that this book has one thing that no other copy of this book has, which is notes that I took in 1993,

including this banger.

Argentine history most frequently takes the form of an explanation of a perceived failure or to rewrite an actual loss as a victory. It's pretty smart.

But I'm throwing it away.

Whoa.

I also pulled out The Clumsiest People in Europe

by Todd, edited with an introduction by Todd Prusan, a really funny book, reprinting an extremely weird, xenophobic book about Europe by this weirdo name

Faville Mortimer.

I've held on to this since 2005, 20 years now.

I never even thought about it until I saw it in a used bookstore in New Haven a couple of weeks ago. And it reminded me that I had this copy.
Did I need it anymore? No.

Am I throwing it away? Of course not. It's got my name in it, in the acknowledgements.

By the way, I'm not throwing away the invention of Argentina either. I knew it.
No, I knew it.

Keeping it. Keeping it.
Keeping it for the library.

Here's the thing: I agree with you, Haley.

I don't want another book in my life ever. I read exclusively on devices now.

This is in part due to the fact that my eyes don't work

and

holding up a book in bed makes me tired.

You catch me at a particular inflection of time. When having books and loving books was such a staple principle of my upbringing and connection to physical copies of books that carry with them

the touch,

the air of the authentic, as Walter Benjamin wrote in his seminal book of essays, Illusions, which is here somewhere because I won't throw it away.

It's a connection to another place and time and to another version of myself.

Is this true of every book in my collection? No, because the ones that I truly have no connection to, I have gotten rid of, but there are some that I just never will.

And yet at the same time, I also loathe objects now.

I'm at a new phase of my life where the idea of adding a knickknack or a book, with the exception of certain gifts from friends, like a Junior Zither themed to the third man movie, for example, or a Hartford Weathers hat, or the right thing.

I mean, I go to the Big Chicken Barn in Ellsworth, Maine, and I will go through all of the books. I will go through all of the comic books.
I will go through all of the junk on the first floor.

This is

an old, like a used book, an antiques dealer called the Big Chicken Barn. There are no chickens there.
But even if there were chickens there, I would go through all the chickens.

And it gives me great delight to lay my eyes and occasionally hands

on those old objects and feel them and to commune with them. But I never bring them home.

One, because I know I don't have room for them, nor do I want them in my home anymore, because I do feel clutter keenly.

And two, because I know they'll probably be there next year because they usually never sell.

I am done with stuff and working hard

because I truly do feel and perceive clutter not only keenly, but in a different way as I've grown older. Now, you're young, Haley, but I want to say I feel you here.
At one point, the topic came up

of, you know, maybe Natasha would have

a one-packed bookshelf, but she would double,

double shelve them so there would be books behind books. And I knew you wouldn't be feeling that.
Even that bothers me. It's awful.
Yeah. Like, you know, they're there.

I mean, I understand about the brain itch. I do not have a diagnosis, but I do know about the brain itch because I know that there are robots underwater at Disneyland.

And when you know, you can't unknow. When you know, you can't unknow it.
Right now, and for whatever reason, I've talked about this at length before,

but this goes back to an initial teenage trauma when I went to Disney World and did the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea ride.

And I was looking out the portholes thinking that I was going to see fish, but instead I saw robot fish and it freaked me out.

The artifice and the air of inauthenticity made me very anxious. And also the fact that robots don't belong underwater.

So,

Haley, I feel you.

And Natasha, I absolutely feel you. I mean, I will never throw away the invention of Argentina, even though it serves no practical purpose and, frankly,

not a lot of aesthetic purpose either. It's no offense to the designer of this book, but it's not very beautiful.
It wasn't meant to be.

The Clumsiest People in Europe is a beautiful book designed by my friend Sam Potts. Another reason I'll never throw it away.

Having your own personal library is a wonderful thing, but I don't want any more of it. And I also understand why it's going to make Haley's brain itchy.

Combining households is really hard,

really challenging, especially if one of the people in the household

has a diagnosis of OCD.

I mean, the truth is, if we were smart, we'd never live together at all. Then we could have exactly what we wanted in the way that we could curate our world exactly the way we wanted.

So I would suggest in consultation

with a professional vis-a-vis your OCD, Ailey,

that you start, and I'm going to push you a little bit further here. My suggestion: you said you'd take one bookshelf, two,

and live with that for a while and pick, Natasha, the most special books.

And even consider, Natasha, whether you might compromise a little bit further by not packing that bookshelf,

but instead displaying them in a way that is more aligned and with Haley's taste. That is to say, to stagger books and objects and corkscrews and other things

as an expression of the museum of Natasha rather than just pack it full of books. Knowing that you're keeping your collection in that storage space.
I know that it's an expense.

I know that it might be hard to bear. but I think you've had it for a while.
And I think it's essential as you merge your lives together for you, Natasha, to know that that stuff is there,

that you can lay hands on it when you need to.

And in the future, when you do lay plans for further moves down the road or whatever, you will be able to pick and choose which books are going to be a part of that life, maybe all of them at some point.

Maybe you'll finally get that room of one's own. But that room of one's own for now is going to be that storage space.
This is the sound of a gavel.

You're going to need a big bookshelf. Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.
Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Natasha, how are you feeling right now? I feel okay.

A little bit stressed,

but

I will do it for you, my love.

What about you, Haley? I feel really great about the pomegranates, first of all.

And we can definitely manage the financial aspect of the storage unit so that she has that room of one's own. Haley, Natasha, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We'll have Swift Justice coming up in just a second.
First, our thanks to Redditor Banjo Solo for naming this week's episode Shelf Incrimination.

That happens over there on the maximum fun reddit at r slash maximum fun. You can suggest your title ideas or just check out the other cute titles that others have suggested.

You can find us on Instagram at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman. We're also on TikTok and YouTube at judgejohnhodgman pod.
Follow and subscribe there for our episodes and for video only content.

John, have you ever heard of

an artwork called Table Number Seven by Gregory Green? No.

This is an installation in John Waters' house. Oh, no, really? It is specifically an entire room of John Waters' Waters' house, a small room.

He has donated it to the Baltimore Museum of Art, but I believe that it will not be moved to the Baltimore Museum of Art until John Waters has shuffled off this mortal coil.

It is, it speaks to John Waters' taste in art

and to his taste in home decor.

It is essentially a room with a work table,

like a workshop table. The floor is covered in miscellaneous papers, and the table is covered in the equipment necessary to build an improvised bomb.
Wow. All right.

And it represents a terrorist who had to leave real quick while he was in the middle of making a bomb.

So incredible. Right.
And very cluttered. That's all I'm saying.

I mean, you know, look, it's art because it is intentional.

And therefore, it is not clutter. It is exactly what it's supposed to be.
What do we got on the Judge John Hodgman review front?

I want to say thank you to Crosby Ferguson over on Apple Podcasts who left us some very kind words and a number of stars equaling five.

Crosby wrote just a couple of weeks ago that this is their favorite podcast. Quote, I started listening to J.J.
Ho a decade ago.

My late husband, who was a whole human being in his his own right, were newlyweds then. Oh my gosh.
We would wait eagerly every week for their new episodes to drop.

That's ours so we could listen to it together. And now our 10-year-old daughter listens to it with me.

I am so grateful for the many years of laughs and memories that I've shared with the people that I love. Well, thank you, Crosby Ferguson.
I'm not crying. We're all crying.

What a heartbreaking story, but we were so glad to be part of your love and your journey together. We're so grateful to have so many longtime listeners, but we also love our brand new listeners.

And if you're a fan who wants the podcast to thrive and grow, there is one surefire way to introduce new listeners to the show. Just do what Crosby Ferguson did and tell people about it.

Leaving a review on Apple Podcasts really helps us find new listeners, as does sharing YouTube videos,

specifically ours, ideally.

We have the YouTube channel, Judge John Hodgman Pod, where we now post whole episodes as as video episodes and youtube is how more and more people are uh not only watching but also listening to podcasts and discovering podcasts um so if you wanted to uh share judge john hodgman with a friend a loved one a foe or perhaps everyone you know on earth sharing the youtube videos would be really really helpful in that regard

And I love reading the comments on YouTube. And so I would just like to nominate a YouTube comment of the week for this week.
This refers to our YouTube video and episode between Lauren and John.

Lauren wanted to get a physical baby grand piano and John to start learning again because she hadn't played for years. And John was like, not so fast, honey.

Why don't you get a keyboard instead? Because it's smaller. I won't tell you how I ruled if you haven't watched it yet, but you can probably figure out how I feel about it.

And one of our listeners fully agreed with Lauren. Schwartz Moritz said,

you know, getting a used upright piano, even with professional movers and the cost of tuning figured in is still going to be a lot cheaper than a good stage

keyboard like a Nord, and they are literally being thrown away. So rescue them.
And Rules Rabina Wizard

said, I have a bunch of instruments that don't get played very often, but I threw a party a few weeks ago and one of my friends played. every single one of those instruments.

Instruments are a delight to have around, and I agree. So thank you so much for listening for so long, Crosby Ferguson.

I'm so sorry for your loss, but thank you for sharing that part of your life with our podcast. So glad that we could keep you all company together.
And now that you're very sadly apart.

And thank you all to the folks who engage with our YouTube videos. I mean, does it goose the algorithm? Absolutely.
Am I asking you to help us goose the algorithm? Absolutely, I am.

But that's only because that's the way the podcast continues to thrive and grow. So thank you.
Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Nathan Duarte and Jason Lissick-Machado at Grid Studios in Toronto. Our social media manager, Dan Telford, the podcast edited by A.J.
McKeon, our video editor, Daniel Spear.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmury. You ready for Swift Justice, John? I'm ready for it.

Okay, this is a dispute about a ball python that is completely separate from the ball python in the case that we just heard. By the way, this is my favorite Nick Hornby novel about a ball python.

Uh-huh.

West Vultures says on the MaxFun subreddit, I live in a studio apartment with a ball python who insists that she should be given a piece of any meat that I cook.

She tries to smush her face through the glass of her cage. I've never fed her any human food.

She's too dumb to train, so please at least tell her she's wrong, and her behavior is unappetizing to me at dinner time.

You tell me this ball python

instead of just eating the thawed rats that are provided for her, is looking from her tank.

And when she sees West vultures eating like a piece of like a chicken nugget, she's going to go like this against the glass.

Is that what I'm understanding? Am I understanding that correctly? That's how I interpreted the email here, John. First of all, I'm furious that you did not send Pixer video.

Send them along. I sentence you to immediately send Pixar video.

And then, I don't know, check with your veterinarian, but give your Python a bite of chicken nugget just to see how it goes. Check with your veterinarian.
But no, I don't think that Python is dumb.

I mean, this is what you get when

you take a wild animal into your house and put it in a tank. Every now and then, it's going to want to eat what you're eating.

And if you don't at least sympathize, even if you don't feed that Python the chicken nugget, maybe you're the one who's going to get eaten. Hey, I want to hear more disputes involving pets.

Any disputes about pets, but especially, I mean, look, I'll take cats and dogs' disputes. Of course, they're the classic pets.
But what about birds? What about pythons?

What about disputes about bearded dragons? Is your child campaigning for a pet tarantula, but you're afraid of spiders?

Does your partner like to

take your iguana out to the mall on his shoulder, but you want to keep him in the habitat? Did your roommate come home with two chinchillas without talking to you about it first?

And what if the two chinchillas then have a bunch of other chinchillas? That merits a conversation. Tell me all about it.
Go to maximumfund.org slash jjho.

If you've got any pet-related disputes, even if they don't feel like a dispute and it's just a weird story you want to tell me, I want to read it.

Maximumfund.org slash JJHO is where we receive all of our disputes and we're talking about all of them, right, Jesse? Any dispute, send it to us at maximumfund.org/jjho.

It is the gasoline that fires the internal combustion engine of the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Go to maximumfund.org/slash JJ H O to submit your cases.

And we will talk to you next time on Judge John Hodgman.

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artists-owned shows supported directly by you.