Medical Pal Practice at SF Sketchfest

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Judge John Hodgman speaking to you right now with some special news.

This week's episode was recorded live at San Francisco Sketch Fest in January of this year.

We heard a case about whether or not a cat was too ugly to appear in a calendar.

And boy, was it a doozy.

But first, there's a case between Rob Bedeker and James Richmuth from the legendary sketch group Kasperhauser.

Truly one of the weirdest and funniest conversations I've ever had, on stage or off with those two.

And speaking of San Francisco Sketchfest, tickets are on sale now to see us at Sketchfest 2025.

We'll be at the Marines Memorial Theater Sunday, February 2.

That's right, Groundhog Day, and we cannot wait.

Tickets are at maximumfund.org/slash events or go on over to sfsketchfest.com.

Let's go to the stage now at the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco, California.

People of San Francisco, you came to us seeking justice, and we're here to deliver it at the beautiful Palace of Fine Arts.

The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Let's bring out our first set of litigants.

Please welcome to the stage Rob and James.

Tonight's case, medical pal practice.

Rob brings the case against his old friend James.

They're both comedians, but James is also a medical doctor.

20 years ago, Rob got sick on their way to a big job interview.

James failed to diagnose Rob's mystery illness.

As a result, they didn't get the job.

Their lives have been pointless and empty ever since.

Now, Rob seeks justice.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Not since the days of the actual historical feral child named Casper Hauser has humor been so nimble, hungry, wiry, and covered with a fine cat-like fur.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Rob James, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever?

I do.

Yes, sir.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he is a doctor of chiropractic?

I do.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

I technically only have a master's.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, half a master's.

Half a master's, University of Phoenix.

I've never laid hands on another human being.

Not even my own wife, who's a whole human being in her own right.

I don't know how we had children.

I just, they just showed up one day, and I guess that's how it happens.

Oh, wait a minute, it's you, Robin James.

John, the category there is things they don't teach you in chiropractic school.

Yeah, the OBGYN session was pretty short.

Yeah.

Robin James, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced?

As I entered this courtroom, Rob, we'll start with you.

Rob, what is it?

I think it's a blurb.

You think it's a blurb.

A blurb, you say.

Yeah.

Anything more that you want to say about that?

That's as far as I can go.

I think it's a blurb.

A blurb.

So, Judge Hodgman, I think that Rob thinks it's a blurb.

Can we say blurb a little bit more until that word loses its

blurb?

Blurb.

Blurb.

I think so.

For a what?

A book.

For a book.

Any particular book?

All right, James, what's your guess?

It is.

This is for all the marble.

It is His Honor's foreword to our third book, Weddings of the Times.

By ours, you mean whose?

Casper Hauser's.

The comedy, the famous

sketch group,

of which you happen to be 50%?

That's correct.

San Francisco Sketch Comedy Legends, Casper Hauser?

Holy moly.

Well, that may be true, but you're wrong.

What is it, Rob?

You held back because you know the answer, but you don't want to win unfairly.

I think it's your blurb.

My blurb?

blurb for

okay, maybe you don't know.

Your first book, Sky Mall.

Sky Mall, Casper Hauser's Sky Mall, still in print, still one of the funniest things.

Sky Mall, the parody of the Sky Mall catalog, has now long outlasted the Sky Mall catalog.

Rest in peace, Sky Mall.

I miss you.

I miss you on every flight.

That's Sky Mall colon, happy crap you can buy from a plane.

So yes, that was my blurb, not my foreword from Sky Mall.

So now we have to hear the case.

Now, Rob, you seek justice in this case.

Is that not so that's correct.

Do you bring the case before me as the plaintiff?

Yes.

Rob it says here you that James did not diagnose your ailment properly.

Tell me briefly where were you when you started having symptoms?

My memory is I was in the car we were driving to LA in January.

From San Francisco.

That's right.

Right.

Yeah.

For

an interview with Mad TV.

Mad TV to be writers on Mad TV.

Yes.

I see.

Yeah.

And what were your symptoms?

What symptoms started?

It started as like a pulse in my head, like an electrical pulse.

And oh, that doesn't sound very comfortable.

It wasn't.

What side of your head?

What area?

Right side, sort of back of my head.

Do you mind if I touch you?

Part of the master's in chiropractor.

Please.

I see.

Yeah, exactly.

How long ago was this?

20 years ago.

Oh, I see.

Yeah.

And

how did the symptoms then proceed?

Don't mind me.

It's fine.

Is it okay if I just do a few short tests here?

Go ahead.

Stand up a little bit more for me.

Take a deep breath.

And how did the symptoms proceed after that?

Good.

Sorry, I missed the question.

How did the symptoms proceed?

They proceeded poorly.

They got worse.

In terms of any pain?

Yeah, the pain got worse up here.

Right.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, no, fine.

Here, here on your right temple.

Yeah, it sort of kept moving up toward my eye

and getting more intense, like more painful.

I see.

And were you driving or no?

No, James, wouldn't you?

Very lucky for you.

Would you cough for me, please?

Cough?

Yeah.

Cough.

And one more time?

Yeah.

It's pretty clear to me you had shingles.

Pretty obvious.

James, why'd you miss this one?

You're a medical doctor.

Did you have shingles, Rob?

I did.

It turns out you had shingles.

Yeah,

I could tell 20 years later just by touching you.

Shingles.

How'd you miss this one?

I have been living with this missed, very judgmental term, missed diagnosis, really, for 20 years.

I'll be the judge if it's judgmental or not.

Okay.

James, you are indeed a real medical doctor.

Yeah, but how good of a doctor if you miss the shingles of your friend?

Well, I'm not in the Hall of Fame.

What kind of a doctor even are you?

I am a medical doctor and a board-certified psychiatrist.

A board-certified psychiatrist.

That's correct.

So you diagnosed Rob with schizophrenia?

No.

I will say in James's defense, some people get psychiatrists, psychologists confused, don't realize that psychiatrists are medical doctors, which he is 100%.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is that not sure that helps me in this case?

At any rate,

there were not.

What do you remember about this?

Oh, I remember this.

So we were getting ready.

So if it didn't start in the actual car, in our little Honda Civic, if not then, it was only briefly beforehand.

But he was out of sorts, but also his right eye was red and sort of weepy.

Right.

And he was complaining of pain and wincing a lot.

So already

I was concerned that our comedy dream was going in the toilet.

That was your primary concern.

When your friend started complaining about mystery pain and his eye had turned bright red and was lolling out of its socket, you're like, I might not get to write for Mad TV.

That was the last thing you thought of.

You were like, oh, no, what will Aries Spears think of this?

It's,

you know, it's just, even if he'd had a head cold or the flu or something, I'm thinking, yeah, this is probably going to affect our interview.

Sure, but so that I pulled out Harrison's, which is the big book that we always use.

Sure, which you keep in your car, obviously.

That's right.

A diagnostic book.

I was able to drive.

Yes, Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine.

Right.

And I was going down the I

wormhole.

I would say I was slightly distracted by the I

findings, not so much because I wouldn't say there was much in the way of derm findings yet.

So I was looking for- I'm sorry, derm findings?

There wasn't much derm, there wasn't much dermatological presence.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

To my memory, there was no rash yet.

No rash yet.

That's right.

And also,

there is the possibility, although we've argued over which sentence it was, but I either said,

I wonder if it's shingles,

or

it can't be shingles, can it?

You said one of those two things.

Right.

And given that he is not my patient, right?

He's my roommate.

I was your roommate.

And I was just in a lot of pain.

That's what I remember.

At any rate, so you know, this is casual.

He's not my patient, and I'm a psychiatrist, not a dermatologist, right?

Right.

But I think that counts as a sort of casual differential diagnosis, whether I said it can't be shingles, can it?

Or.

And I think it's casual malpractice.

Yeah.

And he's bringing the case.

He's bringing the case, but I've paid for this in the form basically of bullying and harassment ever since.

I pride myself in being a good diagnostician.

I've made some really good diagnoses.

I mean, outside of my field, objective family-friend sphere.

Were you a.

Yeah, you have any examples you'd like to share with the court?

I would.

Yes, I would.

Go on, then.

Yes, thank you.

While you think it over, Rob,

are you a bully?

Are you a bully?

Really?

Have you been bullying James?

Listen, again, all this, I'm just, I was in pain.

I needed help.

Harrison's, Derm, whatever.

You know.

I went to the ER, by the way, eventually.

Eventually.

Yeah.

But your first course of action was to ask your psychiatrist friend.

And roommate.

And roommate.

Yeah.

What do you think is happening inside my head right now?

Right.

A vascular necrosis of the femoral head.

That's what I diagnosed.

A vascular necrosis.

A vascular necrosis of the femoral head.

That was remembered.

That was your diagnosis.

In another person.

In the Honda.

Oh.

Oh, in another.

That's good.

That's good.

You wanted me to remember a good diagnosis I had made ever some other time.

That didn't help me.

Yeah, that didn't help me.

That's just a diagnosis that you had made of a different person at another time that turned out to be correct.

I was talking.

Your goal here is to demonstrate that one other time you were were right.

I asked him for the example of a time that he was correct.

I remembered.

And

this was in a friend.

It was in a family member.

Not a family member.

Who was having hip pain?

And they, you know, said, well, you just got hip pain, I guess.

Necrosis of the femoral head.

That's what it sounds like.

A vascular necrosis of the femoral head.

Were they able to take that diagnosis and get some good treatment?

That's right.

That's good for them, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it was a golden retriever.

But they have femoral.

You guys aren't doctors.

Or vets.

Honestly, I think getting a description of symptoms out of a golden retriever would probably be easier than what I had to do to get the descriptions out of Rob of what was going on in his head.

I can go back there if you want.

No, no, it's fine.

I got listening.

It was a hard time.

I was in pain.

I needed help.

I wasn't getting it.

Why didn't you say to your friend

James, Dr.

James, I think I need to go see a non-psychiatrist doctor before we drive down to

2020.

I thought I got a doctor driving the car next to me.

Why not ask him to start with?

Do you remember if he said this isn't shingles or this can't be shingles?

What do you remember?

Maybe.

Maybe,

you know, he was going through a lot of information.

That's a problem.

Sometimes people say that's a problem that I have.

It's possible that he named a lot of things, and that was one of the things he either named or

ruled out.

James was saying, how much energy do you have?

How have your bowel movements been lately?

Tell me about the shine of your coat.

You do have a very shiny coat, very healthy shine.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I would also be concerned that your friend was consulting a medical textbook about speeding south in a car.

Well, me too.

Yeah.

But again, I just, you're right.

I should have maybe asked him to pull over to take me to an urgent care or something on the way.

I feel like that would have been insulting, though.

Tell me about the job.

Was it a big job for you guys?

It would have been.

Yeah, if I didn't have shingles and,

you know, I couldn't focus in the interview.

So what happened?

When James said it can't be shingles.

I didn't necessarily say that.

I might have said,

I wonder if it's shingles or it can't be shingles, can it?

Like that.

No, I remember your two line readings from before.

You've cut off two very important words.

The words are important.

Why are they important?

Because it can't be shingles, can it?

It has the opposite meaning to it can't be shingles.

They mean the opposite.

Who are you asking?

Exactly.

Like, Jane, Robbie,

Rob is not an MD.

I'm thinking out loud.

If I say it it can't be shingles, can it?

That's it.

That's what he was doing, thinking out loud.

And

this is an eight-hour drive.

So let me ask you,

this goes to state of mind.

Rob, when James said his famous line, go ahead.

It can't be shingles, can it?

Pretty much his catchphrase at this point.

Yeah, yeah.

Give me one more time with that one.

It can't be shingles, can it?

If I were in your seat in the Honda, I might have taken that as something of a reassurance.

Like, he's thought about it.

It can't be shingles, can it?

It must be something less severe than shingles.

Let's go to the job interview.

Was that your state of mind?

Are you trying to implant a memory?

Yes.

It's weird.

If not that, what was it?

It can't be an implanted memory, can it?

Did you feel reassured when James speculated on the shingles and sort of ruled it out in a way?

No, I was worried about the interview.

I didn't know what was going on.

James's diagnoses were sort of flying by.

How long does it take to drive to Mad TV?

Eight hours-ish.

How did it go as the hours went by?

It got worse and worse.

And maybe I was thinking some of it was the stress of this interview coming up.

Some of it was...

Did at any time your friend, the doctor, suggest you wear a cone around your head so you wouldn't lick your eye?

I wish he would have.

And how did the meeting with Mad TV go?

It was a dreadful disaster.

Go on.

Tell me more.

What I remember.

I remember.

Don't.

Don't.

Don't.

I'm willing to admit that this infection of the face wasn't the only bad thing about our interview with Mad TV, but we are not adjudicating other aspects of that interview.

That is not on trial.

That could be a separate episode.

I was not perfect in that interview.

I object.

I'll allow it.

It goes to state of mind and an interesting story.

How did it go?

I remember we were being interviewed by a well-known comedy guy, Dick Blessucci, I think it was.

He was the executive producer of Man TV and had been the former head writer of SC TV.

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah.

And

very early on.

And a famous anti-shingles racist idea.

Apparently.

I remember that James, a couple minutes in the interview, was asking about the

compensation and health benefits.

And

a couple of minutes into the interview.

That's my memory.

Was it couched in this way?

So, first thing first,

what are your health benefits?

Because my friend probably doesn't have shingles, but something's going wrong.

Can you hire us right away?

Tell me about the Fox Company's health benefits.

Do they cover Kennel cough?

I was embarrassed.

I don't know what I was thinking.

And also, they appeared, when we walked into the room, it appeared to be a perfunctory interview.

It felt like one of those ones where they had just hired

the people who were going to get the job.

And they were like, oh, crap, we just walked in.

Oh, yeah, no interests.

And then they got someone on the phone who was supposed to be there and had that person do it on speakerphone.

So we just thought, and then I don't know why I would ask about benefits.

That was just.

Well, you were concerned about your friend's health.

I was not.

I never made

an extremely interesting defense.

I'm not going to lie.

Like I said, there were multiple,

this is a multifactorial disaster of an interview.

That would be my diagnosis.

I never made this connection.

I never realized that James was worried about my health insurance.

Apparently, he wasn't.

Maybe I was.

Yeah, yeah, that's what it was.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I'm not trained in head science.

I'm trained, I got a master's degree in chiropractic.

But maybe you were making an unconscious, expressing an unconscious

sense of care for friends.

I will take that.

And how badly were you suffering at the interview by the time you got there?

Well, Dick Blasucci looked at me and said, Do you have shingles?

That didn't happen.

No.

How bad were your symptoms when you got there?

Pretty bad.

Pretty bad.

Yeah,

like seven out of ten.

Were you weeping blood at this point?

I don't remember weeping blood.

A lot of pain.

I was in a lot of pain.

Did it sound sweating?

Like it was getting really sensitive around my eye.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just the kind of comedy writer you want to hire.

Exactly.

Do you think the shingles adversely affected the job?

Did you lose the job because of your shingles?

100%.

99%.

99%.

Yeah.

And the other 1% was my question.

All right.

Do you think that if James had diagnosed your shingles properly, a different outcome would have occurred?

I think so.

How?

What could have happened?

I think we would have both been more relaxed.

You would have missed your interview because you'd be spending the night in an ER in Bakersfield.

How is that going to help you get the job at Mad TV, sir?

Well, I just would have known there was a treatment plan in place.

James probably wouldn't have asked about the benefits and we would have just been ourselves and if you had postponed the interview.

Oh, is that even an option?

Sure.

Judge Hodgman, bear in mind that the target audience for Mad TV at the time was people in ERs in Bakersfield.

It's true.

It would have been audience research.

Bobby Lee plays great to them.

Let me ask you, you mentioned, James, that you are bullied and have been bullied over this

misdiagnosis or non-diagnosis

for 20 years.

That's right, by the troop.

What form does the bully go?

Well, basically, it's hung over my head as this obvious misdiagnosis.

Like, I'm supposed to feel

I missed it.

I missed the shot.

Let's be like missing the shot in a game or something, but instead of your team, you know, holding you up, just kind of reminding you of it, because they know it piques me.

I don't like that fact, you know, because like I said, I've diagnosed in dogs many different conditions.

Would you say that it haunts you to this day?

Mildly so.

Yes, absolutely.

It bugs me.

I wish I had gotten it right.

I absolutely would have.

What difference would it have made?

Well, so first of all, he could have gone on antivirals.

You know, and I don't know if...

Before you got to Mad TV?

Yes, he could have started them.

I don't know if he would have felt that much better.

He might have been reassured by having a diagnosis, but it made a big difference to me because there's pride

in diagnosing your pets.

And how do they tease you?

Oh, it just gets brought up.

Like,

you missed the shingles diagnosis, that's why.

And it was the punctuation or the

proof of that is how he was eventually diagnosed.

How is that?

By the ER doctor.

When did you go?

When we got back from the interview, I went in.

Remember, we're roommates.

We get back home.

And

I think I took the bus there.

Why didn't you drive?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I think he might have been afraid to drive with you because who knows what the trip is.

I walked right in there, and ER docs

within a second.

Just like just shingles.

Yeah.

Shingles.

So

why do you still tease James about this?

Aside from the fact that you're obviously just an aggro dude.

It's fun.

It's fun.

You know,

it's just a nut.

Hang on.

Will you say that again?

It's fun, yeah, yeah.

I talked over you because I didn't imagine in a lifetime that you were going to say that it was fun.

I mean, you're a very nice person, it's not just a very sweet fellow.

Thank you.

I mean, I've known you for a long time.

Yeah, I appreciate it.

I never would have taken you to be a playground bully.

Bully is a strong word.

May I say that the group Casper Hauser did not run on sincerity and mutual respect.

That was not the fuel

that kept us together.

Sarcasm and

persiflage, if I may.

No, you may not.

Okay.

So, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor, James?

What I want is

to be absolved.

of this on the basic fact that the skin manifestations of the illness were not very obvious early on.

The fact that the diagnosis was instantly obvious to the emergency room doc is because they had the advantage of seeing the condition later and not living with it.

So, you know, it bugs me that I didn't get it, but I didn't do anything wrong.

I didn't miss the diagnosis.

Rob,

do you disagree?

What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

I would ask for something like light malpractice, you know, sort of.

Something breezy.

Yeah, breezy malpractice.

I don't want his license to be taken away, but I do want to acknowledge that, yeah, he should have gotten it.

We should have gotten the job.

To be very clear, you're saying that if you had been diagnosed accurately by your friend,

a medical doctor who nonetheless is not a shingles expert,

if he had diagnosed you correctly in the Honda on the way to the interview,

that would have psychically stopped the shingles in its tracks.

And you would have been cured and you would have had a great interview and you would have been right as your mad TV until it ended.

ended.

Well, when you say it that way,

yeah, I think that is

what I want.

I think I've heard everything in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my chambers.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Rob, how are you feeling about your chances?

I feel really validated.

I feel heard.

And

I don't.

know if he incriminated himself, but

you're suggesting he should have taken the fifth.

I would have.

Yeah.

James, how are you feeling about your chances?

I feel validated.

I feel heard.

So in the, James, in the decades since this incident occurred, have you continued to practice medicine?

No, I quit that day.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

First of all, thank you both for being here.

You're both so wonderful, so very funny, and sometimes very sincere.

Sometimes, much to my surprise, I've learned you can lie to me,

Rob.

In service of a joke,

because you're very talented improvisers and comedic thinkers, I think you would have been a credit to Mad TV.

And I'm very, very sorry that your body disagreed with you, Rob, and decided to sabotage the interview.

Shingles, Shingles, that was not a fun thing to have, was it?

No, sir.

No.

And I just got my first shingles vaccine and that put me out for a full day.

I don't want to get the full, the real shingles.

I got to get the second vaccine soon and everyone else should too.

Thank you for your service.

Sure.

I'm sorry that you went through that.

Thank you.

I'm sorry that you felt let down by your friend in some way.

And I'm also sorry, James, that you were put in this position.

After all, you are a medical doctor, but you are a physician of the mind.

And you have gone on to help people live better lives over these past 20 years.

You should be proud of yourself.

Now, I did a little bit of research,

and it would be inappropriate for me to reveal the names of your patients, but I have here a list of them.

And I did a little cross-checking

with the public health records here in Northern California.

Would it surprise you to know that the average number of patients of a professional psychiatrist who contract shingles, that percentage is usually around 2% or 3%.

Whereas with regard to your patients, it's 79%.

79% of your patients contracted shingles, or I should say, did not seek treatment for their shingles.

Because according to their testimony, you would frequently say, it can't be shingles, can it?

did I say that the right way maybe you should try it it can't be shingles can it

that is not true of course that is but a little fiction see two can play at that game

Rob yeah thank you

and also

two can play at the game of bullying James I liked getting under James's skin and attacking him for misdiagnosing his friend.

I appreciate that.

It genuinely and sincerely seems to bother bother him.

I did not come to this case to imagine that Rob, you, a very soft-spoken person that I've known for many years, truly one of the kindest, wouldn't you say he's one of the kindest?

Absolutely.

Truly one of the kindest people in the world,

would actually crack a joker-style grin at me.

When I say, why do you keep bothering him about this?

And you said, because it's fun.

That, you don't need a psychiatrist.

You have a lot of self-knowledge if you're able to say that.

That's the hard thing that I learned back when I used to throw my sneakers at Elliot Kalen in the backstage of the Daily Show.

Bullying nerds is fun.

It doesn't make a difference if it's a joke or if it's meta-nerdery, like my nerd-on-nerd bullying that I did with Elliot.

It hurt his feelings.

I had to apologize to him.

I had to make it up to him.

I'm still making it up to him in annual payments.

We went to court.

The point is

that

there is no way that the shingles diagnosis would have changed the outcome of MAD TV.

That is just, as Edward Gorey says, what is, is.

That's just what happened.

You are not going to get treatment for shingles that would have wiped that disease away in time or prevented James from saying the dumb shit that he said in the interview that lost you the job before you even had a chance.

If you cared so much about your health, you have to acknowledge acknowledge that James is there to help you, he wants to help you,

but he is not your medical doctor, he's not your primary care physician.

You can be your own advocate, as we unfortunately have to do in the healthcare system, and said, Pull over, this is Bakersfield.

I want to do some audience research for Mad TV

and get some antivirals here.

Well, they'll surely pick out the shingles.

So,

I feel that it is an unfortunate occurrence, but that your complaint is meaningless

and

that your bullying must stop.

Yes.

Because for you, it's a joke, but on some level,

and for you, it's a joke too, James.

But on some level, it's a little bit real.

It bothers me.

It bothers you, right?

If it's not fun for everybody, it's no fun at all.

So

I find in favor of James.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules that is all.

Rob James,

where can people find you?

Kasperhauser.com?

Yes.

Is Craigslist still up?

It is, just barely.

Can I just say that literally 20 years in, my literal favorite thing on the entire internet is Casperhauser's Craigslist parody, Craigslist spelled with a K-H.

And not a literal day goes by that I don't think about the headline: want to trade

angel shit for dolphin shit.

And then

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Please welcome to the stage Emily and Lennon.

Tonight's case, feliney conviction.

Emily brings the case against her husband, Lennon.

They have two cats named Loki and Speckle, but only one of them ever makes it into Emily's annual cat calendar.

Lennon thinks that's not fair.

Emily says the other cat just isn't hot enough.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

I just got a rather nasty shock.

In looking for something or other, I came across the fact that one of my cats is about to be nine years old and that another of them will shortly thereafter be eight.

I have been under the delusion that they were about five or six.

I feel the tomb is just around the corner.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Emily and Lennon, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he is afflicted by toxoplasmosis?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Yes, it's absolutely true.

Anytime I see a cat, I just try to run into its jaws.

Emily and London, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

One of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I reference as I enter the courtroom?

Why don't we start with you, Emily?

Emily Dickinson Outtakes.

Emily Dickinson Outtakes.

She was like from the Amherst recording sessions.

Yes.

Absolutely.

She did all her own stunts.

I like it.

Emily Dickinson Outtakes.

I'll put that in the guest book.

What about you, Len?

What's your guess?

I will say column by Irma Bombeck.

Irma Bombeck,

Column By.

Put that in the guest book.

Well, all guesses are wrong.

That was actually a quote from a letter to someone named Peter F.

Neumeier from one of my heroes, Edward Gorey, the illustrator and designer and

first-class weirdo and absolute cat person, Edward Gorey, lamenting the fact that

his cats are actually older than he thought.

And therefore, that meant that he also is older than he thought.

And he, like all of us, are hurtling towards the grave.

He actually passed away.

For us, jury's still out.

We could beat it.

We could beat it.

We could beat immortal.

We'll see what happens.

So far, so good.

I've been really enjoying a lot of Edward Gorey lately.

You should all check him out, especially if you're a weird 10-year-old.

Edward Gorey is for you.

In any case, let's hear this case.

Who Who seeks justice in this court before me?

I do, Your Honor.

And that would be Emily.

What is the nature of the justice you seek?

Tell me about your calendar and why isn't Speckle, the cat, good enough for your calendar?

Sure.

Okay, so I am allergic to cats, but we really wanted a pet.

So my husband and I ended up having to get a pure breed Siberian in 2018.

His name is Loki.

Siberian is a big cat.

Yes, yes, he is huge.

And are they hypoallergenic Siberians?

Yes, ish.

Or is that just what the cat tells you?

It is, yeah, every day.

But yeah, so we got this cat, and he's a purebred, and he comes from like this long line of show cats.

I see.

Which is the thing.

Right.

And so he's beautiful.

So he deserves to be on a calendar.

Well, he's just stunning, and he knows his angles.

Because he's a Nepo baby.

Yeah.

I mean, he's not my child, so, and I take, you know, thank you for saying that.

So I just wanted it to be fair.

Hang on, I've heard everything I need to.

Yeah, absolutely.

The first person you admit to not being a fur parent wins this case.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

If you want to call yourself, if you want to call your cat or your dog your fur baby, that's between you and your animal.

I understand why you feel that way, but, you know, like...

Parenting a human child is a very special thing.

It's a little bit more, you know what I mean?

You don't shit in a box, do you?

So, you know, there are differences.

That's all I'm saying.

We went off topic there.

I apologize, Emily.

Go ahead.

You were saying.

Yeah, so like any person who gets a pet, like I was compelled to photograph him, and he's stunning.

He's got big blue eyes.

He's got this long fur coat.

He's he's Cindy.

He's Linda.

He's Twiggy.

Like, he is just, he's gorgeous.

He's got femme energy and he knows how to pose.

And so.

So you mean Cindy Crawford?

What are the other?

Okay.

Cindy Crawford, Linda Evangelista, and Twiggy, Twiggy.

Twiggy, Twiggy.

Yeah.

Like Mario, Mario.

Yeah.

100%.

Do you know what Twiggy's middle name is?

What's that?

William Carlos Williams.

Oh, wow.

Weird, right?

What does that even mean?

So he has all these things.

I started a calendar.

I take the calendar seriously.

I believe in the the power of photography to send a message.

My cat sends messages.

No one will judge you on wanting to take pictures of your cat

and creating a calendar.

The question is, why is Speckle such a trash cat that it doesn't deserve a place

in the calendar?

It's a fair point, Your Honor.

She is not hot.

She is not a hot cat.

And I love her, and I'm her favorite, and I love that about her, but she's just not, like, she's not.

Is she also a purebred Siberian?

No, we found her pregnant and starving, drinking from a jacuzzi, and we fell in love with her, and we got her home.

And I was like,

now that I have allergies, I will love this cat.

To be fair, that is 100% supermodel behavior.

Supermodel energy, not supermodel face.

Wow.

This is a pretty, you are a pretty superficial pet lover here.

Listen, you know me.

You read me like a poem.

Like William Carlos Williams.

Like Twiggy, William Carlos, Williams, Twiggy.

Lennon, you believe that Speckle belongs in the calendar.

Why?

I think that.

Because you're not a monster.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, that's the short answer.

I think that she is very cute.

Maybe she's not super model, but she's got a little bit of an underbite, and I think that is really cute.

And she's a little tortoiseshell cat instead of a Siberian, and she's very sweet.

And I don't think it's really fair to discriminate like that and not give her equal billing on the calendar.

You make the calendar for yourselves?

Do you send them around to family members?

It's got a very limited and exclusive distribution list.

Right.

But it has, it grows.

It's a real luxury brand.

It's a, yeah, we try to make it.

It's not for you people.

You wouldn't understand.

It's only for people who appreciate actually beautiful cats.

It's your parents, your siblings, Pharrell.

What is Loki like, Lennon?

He is a very.

We know he's very beautiful.

He's very beautiful.

Right.

He is a very snuggly cat.

He's very sweet.

He

loves to play.

He and Speckle got along immediately.

They immediately became best friends.

I believe he submitted some evidence, a video of Loki.

He can be, he's a little clumsy and goofy sometimes.

And yet, yes, I did submit some video.

All right.

I think we should play that video and enter this into evidence.

Let the record reflect that the cat has a box on its head.

Can't get it off.

I forgot that there are distinguishing features to the Siberian brand.

They have two layers of fur.

They have wide paws for walking on snow.

They're large, husky cats that have a dog-like quality, much like the main coon cat.

And also, their heads resemble a Kleenex box.

Which of the two of you was shooting this video rather than helping your cat?

That was Emily.

That would be Emily.

To be fair, he did do this to himself.

A supermodel cat knows they can put their head in a Kleenex box and one of their people will come and take care of it.

You did submit some evidence of Loki not wearing a Kleenex box for a hat.

Did we see that?

No?

Oh.

Wow.

Piercing,

piercing, soulful blue eyes.

This is Loki peering out between, I'm going to guess, two layers of wonderful, high-quality Brooklyn

sheets and blankets, I suppose.

And this is just a Tuesday for him.

Did you take this photo?

I did.

I take all of the photos in the calendar.

You've got very good fur texture in this photo.

It's very nice.

Those stunning eyes, it's like that famous National Geographic portrait of that Kurdish one.

It's incredible.

Yeah, that's a very photogenic cat.

Now let's take a look at the we have some more photos of cats, right?

What's the next one?

Yeah, Loki again posing with a toy.

Do you ever take a picture of Speckle?

Because I'm expecting to see one eventually, right?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, I take so many because I try really hard.

You try hard to take the cat.

Get a good shot, Your Honor.

Oh, because Speckle always looks terrible in the face.

Yes.

You're saying that this cat is legitimately non-photogenic.

Yes.

So the thing about it is that look at the quality.

This is what you're competing with.

Oh, so Speckle is low quality.

Yes.

A low-quality cat.

Yes.

Because it's not pure bread and was found in an alley.

Well, I mean, that's going hard on like her as a person.

I'm just going hard on her.

Not a person, ma'am.

That's going hard on her, like as a, you know.

That would be hard on a person, and it's hard on a cat.

Yeah, that's fair.

It's fair.

Next photo, please.

This is actually, I believe, a picture of Speckle.

All right.

Oh.

Oh, get it away.

Thank you.

Oh, no, darling, no.

You shouldn't even audition.

This is worse than when the guy came to the Mad TV interview with Shingles.

I put her in February because it's the shortest month.

Say it again.

I put it in February because it's the shortest month.

Oh, so Speckle was in the calendar?

Yeah, because he makes me and I enjoy our marriage.

Oh, you want to eliminate Speckle from the calendar?

I thought this was an effort to get Speckle into the calendar.

She's had a few pages in there, but Loki's had dominated the calendar.

And you're saying that you put, was this image February?

Yeah.

This is a cute cat.

This is a picture.

This is a picture of a genuinely beautiful cat with stunning green eyes and a horrifying gaping moth.

Well, but to be fair, Speckle is not frozen in this position.

I hope.

No, no, no.

No, John, your taxoplasmosis right now is drawing you into that hole.

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The wizards answer eight by eight.

The cornclaves call to demonstrate their arcane gift, their single spell.

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and 62 they soon shall be, as one by one the wizards die.

Till one remains to reign on high.

Join us for Taz Royale, an oops all-wizards battle royale season of the adventure zone every other Thursday on maximumfund.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

Judge Hodgman?

Yes, sir.

We've hit the deadline for Christmas shipping in the Max Fund store, but Hanukkah doesn't end until January, so go get those Canadian House of Pizza and garbage t-shirts.

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Whether it's Hanukkah or Saturnalia or Yule or New Year's Eve or anything that you honor and celebrate during this holiday season, it's still a good time to give a present, even if it's a little late.

And we've got lots of them over there at the Maximum Fun store at maxfundstore.com.

Our Canadian House of Pizza and Garbage t-shirts are out of the vault, first time available in many

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And what's more,

We've got shows coming up, right, Jesse?

We're headed up and down the West Coast, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Sketchfast, and of course, LA, although the LA tickets are already sold out.

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And, you know, if you're looking for a last-minute Hanukkah gift, get some tickets to the big show and

put them in a little card and hand it to them and say, happy Hanukkah from Judge John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne.

Should we get back to the case?

Let's Let's do it.

I do want to say that a big part of what makes someone a model isn't just beauty.

It is your ability to be photographed in a way that is like attractive and interesting.

Yes, like you do the turn, like you do the Zoolander, and she just doesn't, because she does not have those moments

and because she cannot pose, I have to get goofy photos of her.

Do we have the one of Loki in the lobster hat?

Or did you not submit the the evidence?

Do we have the one of Loki in the lobster hat?

I didn't submit.

You didn't submit it?

I didn't submit evidence for you.

I'm sorry.

For those listening, you can see these images, of course, on our show page at maximumfund.org and our Instagram account at Judge Sean Hodgman.

This is an image of Speckle wearing what looks like a wreath of candy corns.

And this is a good-looking cat.

Speckle might be better looking.

Whoa.

Oh, my God.

Emily is leaving the courtroom

in a fit of peak.

This would be a first.

You can't judge me.

You don't know me.

Walk out of here and knock over the stool.

Do it.

Flip a table.

Right?

A diva loves a diva, right?

I'm not afraid to say it, John.

I didn't come here to make friends.

This is a cute good-looking cat.

One thing I will say is, badly framed, paws cut off.

Whose fault is that?

Next shot, please.

Ouch!

Now, this is Speckle and Lucky cuddling together.

Holy moly.

I have to be honest with you, Emily.

I think I'm ready for it.

These are both good-looking cats.

Like, if you asked me which one of those cats is a professional model,

I wouldn't be able to tell.

They don't get paid, so I don't know how professional.

Well, but you know what I'm saying.

I know I get what you're saying.

This is a beautiful photo, and and they obviously like each other, even though you are obviously pitting them against one another.

Like, you know, if you were actually a fur parent and these were your fur babies, we would be in like V.

C.

Andrews territory.

Okay.

What is it?

Who submitted this?

Lennon.

Lennon.

This photo, yeah.

And this is to prove what?

That they're both adorable.

That they're both adorable.

And that they love each other and they don't want to be pitted against each other.

And they don't want to be separated even in an exploitative calendar.

Exactly.

I see.

I'm going to, all right, let's move on.

Do we have any more wonderful photos?

Good.

I'm going to move on.

I'm not going to be mean to you anymore, Emily.

I'm going to ask you a question.

I'm ready.

When was the first calendar?

Whose idea was it?

Mine in 2019 was the first year of distribution.

Did Lennon help you make it?

He never does.

He never helps me.

No, make it.

Thank you.

But he has a lot of opinions on a thing he does not create support or or adds photos to.

Oh, how unusual for a husband.

Some of the photos are mine, and I do pay for half of

the printing, so I feel like I have a producer credit.

We counted.

It was three photos in five years.

Three photos of 60

are yours.

There's also a front and a back page.

We want the full experience.

Sure, of course.

Beckled in the back sometimes.

But do you, Emily, deny that he contributed to the Kickstarter?

He does financially help support the project.

We have shared finances.

That is true.

It is a 50-50 split financially.

I do find the coupons, though.

So without that, it would be like 25% more expensive every year.

Okay, right.

You're finding savings.

That is correct.

All right.

Three photos, five years.

And literally the least you can do in a shared finances household.

Why should you have any say over which cat gets featured in this calendar?

So I do hear from the distribution list, from our friends and family, especially from my mom, about the calendar.

As soon as we got Speckle, one of the first things she said to me was, oh, it's got to be a Loki and Speckle calendar now.

And I was talking to her about it, and she said,

I love having that calendar up.

I love seeing Speckle.

I actually get emotional looking at it because I think of how hard her life was before you found her and how happy she is now.

And so I think that's kind of the crux of it for me.

This is not a calendar that we're creating for like our influencer cat to sell.

This is something that we create that's sharing a part of our lives with our friends and family back on the East Coast.

And this is something that they can look at and think of us.

And so it feels bad to exclude a member of our household from that.

Makes perfect sense to me, Emily.

How do you respond?

So a couple of things.

That was beautifully sentimental, but I do want to point out.

I'm there for bullshit.

No, no, no, no, no.

No, no, no.

Beautifully sentimental, but I do want to point out that he encouraged me to start an Instagram account for Loki so Loki could become an influencer and we could retire oh yes I mean if he could do if he could retire us if we could make millions off our cat that'd be great so I think that you're not like thinking in the future about what the calendar could become and potentially stifling that revenue if he starts supporting us he can have the calendar all to himself

So so there's that.

And I also just want to point out that the photo, I agree that the photos presented tonight were cute.

I also want to point out that when I was asked to submit photos, those were absolutely the best out of like 10,000.

It is hard to get cute photos.

She moves around like she's constantly in one place or the other.

It's very hard.

So it's not, it's, it's not just, I see.

So it's not just that you think she looks like garbage.

Yeah, because I know she's

fine for a cat.

She's fine.

She's a seven.

But she's, but she,

but like a Jersey seven, not an LA seven.

I'm from New Jersey.

I am from New Jersey.

It is the best state in the Union.

Hi, mom.

I don't know why you think saying that you're from New Jersey, it's the best state of the union, is going to endear you to this crowd in San Francisco.

I'm just here for a fair ruling.

Look, you did not come here to make friends, that's for sure.

I honestly, the claws are out, and I appreciate you're not holding back, quite honestly.

So why not just add some more speckle photos?

I mean, this is just for friends and family.

What's the big deal?

Sure.

So great question.

I think that what I'm asking for is

I would like to be in creative control of the calendar I create and not have to have 50-50 representation because it's not just about the photos of Speckle that are being added.

It's about the photos of Loki that we lose when we add more Speckle to make a 50-50 point.

Like, so I'm really just saying that maybe like a couple of months, like we have like, we have her as Miss February, we have her as Miss June, like we have her on your birthday, we have her when she's in a candy corn wreath because that can be cute because it's Halloween.

But I don't think it should be 50-50.

What's the right distribution?

It really depends on what she gives me as a model that year.

Right, so every year it's like we're going to give you a shot.

Yeah.

Maybe we'll put you in one of the trash months.

Yeah, exactly.

Like the shorter months.

But I also think.

One of the trash months.

February.

It's obviously the shortest.

February, yeah.

Right.

And then, like, everyone's already sad in like February anyway, so that works.

Right.

And then, like, March.

March is a good month, like, back-to-back.

Right.

August, everyone's already on vacation, so they're not looking at the count.

Yeah, that's a fair point.

Yeah.

What we call in Maine mud season, March, April, February, exactly.

Trash, trash cat time.

Yep.

Yeah.

But even then, you're going to say, like, I'm not making any promises.

No, I will 100% include her.

She's part of the family and she loves me.

And, like, when we wake up in the morning, she comes to me first and like falls asleep on me and makes me like late for work.

Can I ask you a question?

Yeah.

Let's imagine that she were here with us.

Do you think she would love you if she spoke English?

I don't talk about her in front of her.

That's why I say, imagine if she were here and could understand English.

What do you think Speckles' reaction would be?

I don't think she cares.

She doesn't want to be a model.

If she did, she'd pose.

Loki poses.

He will be

in 10 minutes.

Yeah.

She doesn't want it enough.

That is, no, no, no.

She doesn't want it enough.

She's not hungry.

It's like, it's like, you know, those movies where it's like, you need to be a football player.

And he's like, no, I want to be a dancer.

That's Speckle.

She doesn't want to be a model.

She wants to play lacrosse.

Have you considered a calendar where you dress her up as a lacrosse player?

Are you trying to get like a cut of any future?

Look,

I've already got a solution for you that's going to make us all a lot of money.

But that has nothing to do with my verdict.

Is three months sufficient for you, Lennon?

Three months out of 12?

I mean, I think it should be an even distribution.

I think maybe there can be some squishiness there around pictures that are both of them

if a complete six month for each isn't working.

Emily, it says here that if I were to rule in your favor, you want an apology from Lenin.

Why?

What does he have to apologize for?

Because he does none of the work and has equal equal opinions.

No, I never.

I did not ask her to make this calendar.

This was her project.

Why not?

Just leave it alone then.

Well, I'm relaying the opinions that I've been given from our friends and family who are saying, hey,

order.

San Francisco, shut your pie holes.

I think in San Francisco, it's shut your bread bowls.

We don't really eat those.

No.

Everyone does.

You know, you're saying I'm the only one who was eating rice-aroni out of a bread bowl in the Powell and Mason cable car

for hours and hours yesterday?

Setting aside what your family members might think, Lennon,

does this affect your opinion of your wife, Emily?

You know.

Did you know

how long you've been married?

We've been married since 2021.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

Do you have children?

No, probably.

Just the cats in a roombo.

Did you know that

your

fiancé, as you were in the midst of getting married, carried such strong opinions about relative stardom of cats?

I did not.

No.

And how does that affect your opinion?

You know, I was pretty surprised.

It's when she calls Speckle

ugly or mid, that's

not great.

She's got a face for radio.

I think

a face for radio or perhaps a face for the podcast hall of fame.

I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'll go back to my chambers.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Lennon, how are you feeling about your chances?

I feel pretty good.

You know, a little bit concerned about the idea of

putting input into this project,

when I'm not doing the work for it.

But

I think there were still some good points in there.

And I'm not cracking the whip telling her make the calendar.

Like, this is a thing she wants to do.

Emily, how are you feeling?

As a writer who works in tech, I'm very used to people who aren't on the project telling me how they want the project to be done.

So while I am used to this, I'm really really hoping that the judge will rule, not agreeing with why I want the calendar to be the way it is, but understanding that the labor and the effort is completely one-sided and that I'm willing to acquiesce and give two or three months.

That is 25% of

the calendar.

You're only losing 25%.

And as a person who works in tech, you're used to having roughly 75% of any group of San Franciscans regard you with contempt.

Absolutely.

I'm so sorry.

I will go back to Santa Clara after this, I swear.

You're like, I know what I'll do.

I'll go in front of 800 San Franciscans and argue against affirmative action.

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So,

Emily,

you got my taxoplasmosis up.

Your claws are out.

You are unapologetic in your ferocity, and I feel strangely attracted to you.

Like a toxoplasmosis addled rat jumping directly into the cat's jaws.

I think that there will be, if not this year, then very soon, a reality show made about you.

The real cat stage mothers of Santa Clara.

It's all I've ever wanted.

Yeah.

I really, you know, Bailiff Jess was right.

You did not come here to make friends.

You were completely unapologetic in your gross discrimination between your cats.

I've rarely heard a cat parent

openly call their cat mid.

I'm really glad glad that Speckle can't hear you now or ever,

because if Speckle is anything like my own cat, she's probably dumb.

I do like to call my cat dumb to her face because she can't speak English and she's dumb.

But I have to, first of all, make a sweeping judgment that both of your cats are beautiful and wonderful.

I know

both inside and out,

and I know outside of the calendar that you love them equally, right?

I kind of love Speckle like the tiniest bit more.

Oh, wow.

That's why I'm so honest with her.

Should you choose to have children, however?

First of all, it's a total option to not.

But should you ever,

or even like nephews or nibblings or you know, nieces or whatever, you can't apply the same

follow your logic that pets are not children.

I'm someone who used to be in show business.

And it's the truth that when it comes to being photographed, some people got it and some cats don't.

It's true.

It was a mistake that I was ever on screen.

It happened accidentally, and people got tricked for a while, and then they slowly figured it out.

That's just the way it goes.

In the televise,

in the picture arts, in the visual arts, in the modeling arts, it's rough.

It's hard out there.

You're making a calendar.

And the important thing about that is you're making the calendar.

Even though you are mean and discriminatory

and cruel,

you nonetheless have a project that is your project.

And I have to stand by the integrity of it being your project.

I'm sorry, Lennon.

I feel for Speckle, and I feel for you, and I feel for the extended family who get this calendar, wondering where Speckle is.

But this is between Emily and Loki, and Speckle to some degree.

And

mostly Emily's vision for what this calendar should be.

A calendar of,

you know, meanness.

But you don't apologize for it.

You don't apologize for the choices that you're making.

No, and Loki's also mean, but he gets away with it because he's hot.

So many lessons to be learned.

If there are any 10-year-olds in the audience,

I'm going to rule in your favor and allow the calendar to be within your purview.

Purview.

I just, I didn't even know what I was doing.

I didn't even know what I was doing.

I apologize.

That said, Lenin, I do offer some compensation for you.

And by compensation, I mean a counterpoint project that you can undertake with your own time and labor, and compensation in the sense that it's going to make you an incredible amount of money.

And here it is.

You are going to go on Instagram, and you're going to create an account called Speckle versus Loki.

And you will encourage, you will take photos of both, and then you will encourage people to vote as to which cat is more mid than the other.

I mean, if you're going to pit your children against each other for your own amusement and

fun and money, like some kind of deranged billionaire, you might as well make some actual money off of it.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Emily Lennon, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another case in the books.

That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you to Reddit user MK Becker and Balton Ertist for naming the cases in this episode.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast was created by John Hodgman, that's me, and Jesse Thorne, that's he.

This episode was recorded by our friend Matthew Barnhart.

Natty Lopez is our social media manager.

A.J.

McKeon is our podcast editor.

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Check out his work at our YouTube.

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