Gingersnap Judgment

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Ginger Snap Judgment.

Joel brings the case against his wife, Cynthia.

They often get takeout from a local restaurant.

When Joel picks up their order, Cynthia wants him to go through the cookies at the counter to choose the very best one.

Joel says he can't handle the cashier's withering gaze as he examines each and every cookie.

He's seeking an injunction forbidding cookie searching.

Cynthia wants the best possible cookie or no cookie at all.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Hello, me, Judge John Hodgman.

Welcome to Judge John Hodgman Podcast, home of classy drama.

Tonight, me take you back to ancient Rome for big, big play, me, Claudius.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Joel and Cynthia, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

I do.

Yes, I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he doesn't even really like cookies?

Yes, I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

You know what cookies I like?

Pecan sandies.

I like those, quite savory.

Pecan sandies or pecan sandies.

I don't care how you say it.

Pecan sandies.

Pecan Sandras.

I also like lemon coolers.

I'm here in the solar-powered studios of WERU in Orland, Maine, 89.9 on your FMWERU.org with our main local producer, program and operations director here at WERU, Joel the Maine Man.

Joel, favorite cookie?

Well, we'll get back to Joel on that one.

In the meantime, other Joel and Cynthia, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

One of your favorites.

Can either you name the piece of culture that I reference as I enter the courtroom.

Let's start with,

let's see here.

Joel in South Carolina, you were dominating the pre-show conversation.

We'll start with Cynthia instead.

It sounded like Cookie Monster from Sesame Street, but I don't have a specific episode.

You know, that's an incredibly good guess.

What I like about it is that it's almost correct.

And also, you knew that I would insist on knowing the episode in case you knew the answer, or at least the significance.

Joel, down there in Charleston, South Carolina,

do you have a guess?

Do you want to elaborate?

Do you want to expand?

Do you want to guess more accurately?

So I came into this with the Tom Waits Cookie Monster mashup

as my pre-research guess.

Knowing we weren't in a live show, I figured that was unlikely, but I can't get more specific than Cynthia, so I will go with Tom Waits cookie monster mashup.

Cheers for cookie.

That's good enough for me.

Joel, here in Maine.

Yes, Judge.

Did you get an answer on that favorite cookie yet?

The ones on the computer.

What's that?

The ones on the computer.

All right.

Like a web browser, like a web browser cookie, John.

Yeah, I got it.

So web browsers have what's called cookies.

They're not actual cookies, of course, but they're called cookies.

So that's why Joel, Joel likes it when the website remembers that he logged in earlier.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'll tell you what, I don't accept that cookie, Joel.

Don't even press that button.

We'll come back to you in a minute.

Come up with a real cookie.

Meanwhile, we're going to hear this case.

All guesses are wrong, by the way.

Cynthia, you got very close.

It is Cookie Monster.

It is specifically from Sesame Street, episode number 1448.

That's 1448,

broadcast November 26, 1980, in the segment Monsterpeace Theater,

where a recurring segment where

really, really Sesame Street getting in the weeds and meta on the public television front.

Yeah, what four-year-old isn't excited to hear from Alastair Cookie?

Alastair Cookie was the host of Masterpiece Theater for so long, including when Masterpiece Theater aired all 10 or 11 episodes, depending on how you number them, of a very famous British miniseries, historical miniseries, I Claudius,

which

we did a podcast on it, Jesse.

You'll remember me and Elliot Kalen

called I Podius.

But if you thought we were the first to the iClaudius wordplay game, guess again, because Cookie Monsters, Alastair Cookie, introduced Monsterpeace Theater several times in Sesame Street, including an episode

in which they aired Me, Claudius.

And go to YouTube and watch this thing.

Whether you or not, you know, I, Claudius, go and watch it.

It's just a bunch of monsters yelling at each other, no, me, Claudius.

Very funny.

Let's go live to Charleston, South Carolina, where our litigants, Joel, and Cynthia, are sitting.

Which one of you seeks justice in this court, please?

I do, Your Honor.

That would be Joel.

Yes.

Okay, and you are husband and wife?

That is correct.

Yep.

Okay.

And what is the nature of your complaint, Joel?

Well, so there's a local chain, and for a long time, it's right next to where I work and not close to where we lived.

So I would pick up food on the way home from work.

What is the name of the restaurant?

Verde.

Verde.

As in green.

V-E-R-D.

Yes.

And what kind of food, what kind of food do they serve there?

If you're familiar with like a sweet green along those lines, so salads, salad-based wraps, salad-based bowls.

A South classic South Carolina salad.

yes of course lots of kale growing here i guess oh yeah classic

south carolina rice bowl all right so you end to verde and what happens when you go to verde so her request uh she always wanted me to check whether there are any quote-unquote good cookies um and she defines that as an oatmeal cookie that is appropriately squishy um so she would like me to mash each one that are individually wrapped until I find a correct one.

And if I do not find a suitable cookie, she would like me to not purchase that cookie.

Cynthia, you're in the market for a squishy cookie then?

Yes.

When the cookies are good and nice and squishy, it's one of the best cookies I've ever had.

But sometimes they're not as squishy, and those just aren't my personal favorite, and it's not worth it to me.

I'm just a simple country lawyer.

Let me understand.

Does this restaurant, Verde,

give away free cookies like

that classic South Carolina chain Double Tree Hotels gives away cookies?

No, they are not free.

They're not free.

Okay.

So you're buying a cookie.

You're sending your husband to pick up

salad bowls.

Yep.

And you want him to get a cookie and you want him to feel all the cookies to make sure it's squishy enough before he comes home.

That's correct.

Yes.

And if the cookie's not squishy enough, do you send them back?

You just lock them out, send them back.

I just won't eat it, and then I feel bad that it's wasted, but I don't want to eat it.

Does Joel ever come home with a hard cookie?

It has happened, which is how this case has arisen.

Do they have different kinds of cookies there, or is it all oatmeal cookies?

They have a couple different ones, but the oatmeal one is my favorite.

And

how are they made available, Joel?

Like, are they in a bowl?

No.

So right next to the cash register where you check out, there's like a little tray and they're individually wrapped

just for the customer to grab and say, hey, I want one of these kind of a last-minute point of sale up chart.

An impulse cookie.

Yes.

Yeah.

So, and what flavors are there?

Chocolate chip and oatmeal.

And I think that's it.

I think it's just the two cookies.

It's the two.

And you choose the oatmeal?

It's my, yeah, it's my favorite.

My total my top favorite cookie ever is oatmeal chocolate chip.

This doesn't have chocolate chips in it, but I do really like the oatmeal.

You know, if your oatmeal cookie is squishy enough, you could get, and your chocolate chip cookie is squishy enough, you could get both and squish them together.

That's true.

You know, I haven't considered that, but maybe next time.

Joel, you ever consider picking a very squishy oatmeal cookie and a very squishy chocolate chip cookie and unwrapping them in front of the cashier?

and then squishing them together in your hands while maintaining constant eye contact with the cashier?

Yes, every single time.

No, I have never considered that.

You would enjoy that, right?

You would enjoy making that kind of eye contact?

I definitely don't have major anxiety just thinking about it right now.

Okay, I understand.

What is your complaint, Joel?

Why don't you want to squish the cookies and buy the best, squishiest one for your beloved wife?

Well, I would like to say I do like to pick the squishiest.

I would like to pick the best cookie for my lovely wife,

but I am unwilling to do the smushing

of each one in order to make the purchase because then inevitably that means there are cookies I have smushed that I am not purchasing.

And that just doesn't seem right.

And also the person working there is just staring at you at that point, waiting for you to pay.

So they're watching me squish it.

And I'm just, I've never done it.

I'm unwilling to do it.

But you've never done it even once.

No.

I have posts.

I've been trying to understand what she likes.

And after the purchase has been made that she makes and she squishes them frequently.

She does go to this restaurant

both together and on her own.

I've been trying to learn what exactly she means.

I still can't fully define it.

What a good versus bad cookie.

We actually brought one today that she says is not good, but was indistinguishable to me from one that we purchased earlier in the week that she thought was great.

I'll definitely be asking you to squish that cookie a little later on, but I need to clarify something.

Cynthia, when you go into Veriday on your own, I don't mind buzz marketing, this classic South Carolina Salad Bowl establishment.

It's historic, it's legendary, everyone knows.

Every ghost store goes by every cobblestone to get there because you got to see it if you're there in Charleston, South Carolina.

Hometown of Janie Haddad Tompkins, a guest on this very program.

When you go into Ver Day, do you squish your own cookie or what?

Yes, I do.

I look through.

We'll do first a visual check to see which ones I think might be the best.

And then from there, squish a few to really understand

which one is going to be the best for me.

What qualities are you looking for visually?

Visually, I like one that's a little like underdone, so not too crispy.

So the coloring of it, I don't want it to be too brown.

And also, you can kind of just tell when it's like a little, a little, not doughy, but not cooked as long.

You're essentially looking for a bowl of oatmeal.

With sugar.

With a lot of sugar, yeah.

Yeah, I understand that most cookie appraisers will say pale means squishy.

Brown means crispy.

That makes sense to me.

You have no qualms about squishing a cookie in front of a stranger, right?

I do not.

And do they ever say anything to you about it?

No.

Usually it's like a teen working there.

I don't know that they really care that much.

It's a teen.

Yeah.

I remember those.

So, Cynthia,

you don't feel bad about leaving behind a squished cookie for other people?

I do not.

It's not like a full squish.

It's just a light touch to kind of get a feel for the squishiness.

Just a gentle dance of the fingers like a concert pianist.

Like something, like you might test an avocado or a tomato.

Yes, exactly.

All right.

That's a pretty good defense.

All right.

Joel, is Cynthia lying in terms of the force of her squishing?

No, she's not lying, but the last time we went together and she did her touches and then picked out a cookie that she liked, she brought it to the table.

And the first thing she said was, see, you can tell just by looking at it how good this one is.

And I was like, then why do we need to do any touching at all?

Because what she's looking for is that light color and that, frankly, greasiness in the package.

And that seems to be enough.

in my mind to make a determination as to the quality of the cookie without the need for any sort of touching.

Cynthia, Joel is saying that you should be able to visually appraise the squishiness of the cookie without touching.

Is this true or no?

I would say no.

It is one, the first step in identifying the best cookie, but it is not the full process.

I would also say that in the cookie that Joel purchased today, after hearing about what I'm looking for, it's still not a good cookie.

So he clearly did not do the second.

I would like to object slightly in that.

I'll allow it.

I did not see any cookies today that match that same greasiness factor that you showed the last time but in light of the podcast I made a purchase anyway so my suspicion was it was not an acceptable cookie today how how long has this been going on Cynthia when did you first discover your favorite squishy oatmeal cookie would you say maybe five years or so

okay this is a long time thing And how long have you been inviting Joel to go and squish the cookies for you?

He didn't start getting takeout for us until his office moved, which was probably a year or so ago.

A year and a half ago.

A year and a half.

So that's when you started saying, hey, on your way home, go over to Verde and get me one of those squishy cookies that I like.

Yep.

And yet, does he do a good job or no?

There have been times where it has not been a good cookie, then I refuse to eat it.

And then it causes some tension, which is what sparked bringing this case to your attention.

Jesse Thorne, I'm about to make a pun that's also a sports reference.

You ready for it?

Wow.

Okay.

I mean, I'll never be ready, but I'm as ready as I'll ever be.

Joel, man, it's a pun and a sports reference.

Go for it.

When it comes to his success rate in picking a cookie you like, what's Joel's batter average?

Out of a thousand cookies, I would say about 400 would be appropriate.

So under 50%, obviously.

Yes.

And yet, it's safe to say he's the Ted Williams of oatmeal cookies.

I mean, 400 is great.

Well, chop his head off and freeze that.

He's the Ted Williams of oatmeal cookies.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org/slash slash join.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Why are you even trusting Joel to do this if 60% of the time he's bringing you a bad cookie?

Well, that's, um, yeah, I don't want a cookie if he's going to get a bad one.

So, um,

you want him to get better?

Yeah, I would like him to get better at picking cookies or just not get me a cookie.

But if he's not going to get me a cookie, then I want him to get me a different dessert.

So my approach has historically been, I just get the best cookie I can figure out visually and just roll the dice.

So I've never done the not buy the cookie thing.

I don't personally feel a lot of,

I'm very anti-food waste generally.

And I feel like normally in the situation where you're

facilitating food waste because you're rolling the dice.

on a cookie, which is a terrible way to choose a cookie.

That is true.

And you're bringing home cookies that Cynthia has said to her are inedible.

And those cookies are getting wasted, aren't they?

Well, they're getting eaten just by me instead of her.

Maybe the dice were loaded when you rolled the dice.

Maybe you wanted to have Cynthia's cookie and eat it too.

You got her a bad cookie, knowing that she would give it to you.

That's my accusation.

I personally would have just bought a chocolate chip cookie if I wanted a cookie from Verde.

Why is that?

Is that because that's a better type of cookie?

100%.

How do you feel about the texture?

Does it need it to be squishy?

I also have preferences about how I like my chocolate chip cookie, which is the skinny flat ones with a little bit of a crusty edge, but still gooey in the middle.

That said,

there is no chocolate chip cookie that can't make it work with a little bit of milk.

So first of all,

that ideal chocolate chip cookie that you're talking about, that is that mix of crispy edge and molten center.

That's very hard to get.

You're not getting that wrapped up at Verde ever, I betcha.

I think that's fair.

I think they tend to be more of the hard crust chocolate chip cookie at Verde, which, again, great place.

I don't want to badmouth them, but those cookies aren't.

Don't worry about it.

They're getting plenty of free advertising.

You know how I bet makes those good cookies?

Jennifer Marmor.

Yeah.

Jennifer Marmor is pretty serious about her cookie cooking.

She hasn't said anything into the microphone, but she's making a face that I'll reflect for our viewers on YouTube, which is, yeah,

yeah, yeah,

that'd be a hard yes.

Yeah.

One time, Jennifer Marmor almost cried because she found out that sometimes I use a silicon mat on my

cookie sheet.

On your cookie sheet?

Yeah.

Is that not correct?

No, because it doesn't.

You're not going to get those hard, crusty edges.

Finally,

we lure Jennifer Marmor.

Jennifer Marmor enters the chat with vengeance.

Got to use parchment.

You don't like a silpat?

You don't like a silicone mat?

I wanted to, but I don't.

Yeah.

I'll use it to roast some veggies, I guess.

Yeah, but then you still.

Jennifer, you're totally right.

You're 1,000% right about it.

Because you figured out what you like and you insist upon it, Jennifer Marmor, because you have standards in the way Joel in South Carolina does not.

Because Joel has just said what his ideal chocolate chip cookie is, and yet he'll eat any old wrapped-up cookie from Veriday.

So, Joel, let me just clarify something.

Have you ever squished a cookie for your wife?

Not pre-purchase, only post-purchase.

Right.

Okay, got it.

And then you're like, oh, and have you ever gotten one?

You're like, I blew it.

Not squishy enough.

There have been times when I said, I'm pretty sure this isn't going to pass buster.

Yes.

And then do you just eat it on the way home?

I can't recall, but that would be one outcome.

Yeah.

No, I feel like I always still give it to you as a, you know, hey, it's up to you.

If we lived in a society where squishing a prepackaged cookie was as common as gently squishing a tomato or an avocado to determine texture and freshness, do you feel like you could do a good job?

Are you capable of finding the cookie your wife wants?

I would be, if it were similar to kind of the, let's call it, vegetable aisle rules in a grocery store.

I think, yeah, I think to me, it's more the social stigma of staring down a teen in a retail environment that is really causing my issues

to.

Again, Joel, you don't have to stare at them while you're doing this.

Cynthia, do you have a concrete rubric or set of best practices?

I mean, we've heard about a few characteristics you're looking for.

Have you explicitly outlined exactly what you need Joel to be seeking?

I have not.

I don't think it's that complicated.

But if you're not going to, if you're not willing to squish the cookie, then it's really hard to get it right.

Now, there is a cookie in the room down there in our studio in South Carolina, correct?

That's correct.

A defunct cookie.

Oh, it's already, it's a rejected cookie?

That has been my understanding.

It's not the worst that I've that he's brought, but it's not tip-top.

Where is this mid-cookie at the moment?

Okay, I see it there.

Yeah, you're doing it wrong, Joel.

Hold it the other way.

You know what?

Give it to Cynthia.

Tell me what you're seeing that Joel isn't seeing in terms of your assessment of the cookie.

Imagine that you're coming across this cookie.

You haven't tasted it yet.

What do you see?

What do you feel?

What are your criteria so that maybe Joel can understand a little bit better what he did wrong?

And you can feel free to put it in your mouth, swish it around, spit it out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Make sure you sniff it real hard to get its bouquet.

So this cookie, I would say, is it's not, yeah, it's not terrible.

It's a little darker than I would prefer.

It's also a little thicker than I would usually prefer.

Usually the thicker ones somehow are cooked more, and somehow the flatter ones are usually a little less cooked.

And yeah, just like, I mean, I don't even squish enough that you'd be able to see it, but just a light feel.

It's not.

How would you describe the squishiness?

It's like a medium.

It's not like a very, very, it's not like a crunchy cookie by any means.

It would definitely feel soft if you were eating it, but not as

soft as I like.

You mentioned the idea of another dessert option.

What else, if Joel can only get a bad cookie, what is it that you want Joel to bring home for you?

So when this case was brought about, I decided that if he can't get the cookie that I want, then I want him to go get a better dessert from somewhere else.

And right next to the location that he gets the takeout is a grocery store, which has endless options of a better dessert.

So you want to make a second stop at the grocery store unless there's a cookie to your liking at Verde?

And what would you like him to get for you there?

Depends on the day, but probably the default of fish food, Ben and Jerry's.

Okay, fair enough.

When you get ice cream, how squishy do you like it?

I like it soft enough that i can you know get a spoonful um i don't have to like hack at it yeah um but i don't want it melty her ideal ice cream is actually soft served it should be mentioned yes that is correct that is my top ice cream choice you married a squishy loving woman joel i sure did that's and why don't you want to make her happy by bringing home a squishy cookie

I certainly do, but sometimes a squishy cookie isn't available.

And the second location to date has been i'm just trying to get home to see our beautiful beautiful daughter as well so oh having to add a grocery store trip just reduces my evening time with our daughter so i feel like that's a bridge too far cynthia joel says that he just wants to come home to see your daughter you would rather have an absentee father than a bad cookie

That is a twist that I didn't fully see coming.

Well, a soft-served lover should love a twist.

I think that, yeah, just that's a good point.

You know what, John?

Next year, let's twist again like we did the previous summer.

I guess I would say that if he is unwilling, just pure unwilling to test the cookies, then I do want another dessert.

But if he tests the cookies and there's not a good option, he doesn't have to get another dessert.

What if he tests the cookies and he judges wrong?

Then that's okay.

If he does his best, I think he could, to his point, I think if he did it, he would improve upon it.

How many cookies would you ask him to test before giving up um i would say like a minimum of five how many do you typically do it depends on how many are in there but like five i would say let's say there are five in there you test all five um unless i can like visually rule some out then yes i would test all of them joel you've never squished the cookie before right

not pre-purchase So you've never been standing there squishing and someone said something to you about it or noticed or said that was gross.

That is correct.

My anxiety is presumptive.

Well, you could attribute it to your anxiety, but you could also attribute it to common sense and not being gross with food you haven't purchased yet.

Charitable, I think.

I'm clearly on, I mean, look, I'm playing both sides of this a little bit.

Yes.

I will not recuse myself because I have not yet decided how I feel about this cookie squishing.

Judge Harsman, if I could suggest something here, I think there are, there is Cynthia, there are three others among us, four, including Joel, who's also on camera.

Right.

Perhaps we could all stare coldly at Cynthia as though we are waiting to be done ringing up her order while she reenacts the squeezing of five or more cookies.

Absolutely no, thank you.

Okay.

Oh.

Why?

Because

we're not teens.

Yeah, you're not teens working in an establishment where I'm trying to make a purchase.

Right.

You're just people staring at me,

looking for me to do something wrong.

So the teens deserve it.

Yeah.

Teens have never looked at someone waiting for them to do something wrong.

You would like to be substitute teacher-ish, if possible.

So when Joel refuses, vocally or in practice, to squeeze the cookie, how do you feel?

I feel a little frustrated sometimes because I really wanted a good cookie.

But I also understand the anxiety piece of it.

And as somebody who has a lot of my own anxiety to deal with, I can definitely empathize with that feeling.

While I don't have it in that particular situation, I can understand the feeling of discomfort.

Judge Hodgman, Cynthia is the very rare anxiety sufferer who suffers less anxiety under the gaze of teens.

She's terrified of teens in other situations.

Like in our relationship,

this is a role reversal a little bit.

And it's always been bewildering to me because if someone were to be anxious about a social situation, it would be more likely to be Cynthia.

But for some reason, this one weird loophole, she just doesn't phase her at all.

And I'm just like, I can't do it.

What do you think?

What do you think that's about?

I just, I do have a theory about that.

And it's because at some point we brought up the whole fruit thing.

And it's just socially acceptable to do that.

I, if, when we buy peaches, I won't buy a peach I haven't smelled because if it doesn't smell right, it's a bad peach.

It's just, it's that simple.

How close do you bring it to your nose before you put it back in the pile?

Not too close.

Like here, maybe.

Okay.

You have to slice it thin enough that it can pass in and out of the nose without touching anything, John.

I got it.

You'll dare to squeeze a peach is what you're saying.

I think most people would say it's inappropriate to touch food except for those limited kind of vegetable or fruit situations that we've just somehow as humans have adopted as that's okay.

Whether it should be okay or not is a subject of some debate, but I think my sense of it is the average person and when I'm projecting what the person across the counter is thinking, they're thinking, what is this person doing this gross thing for?

And that gives me anxiety.

But what is the theory that you have or claim to have as to why Cynthia is not made anxious by this ritual, whereas in other circumstances, she would be made anxious.

I think the desire for the cookie overwhelms the anxiety reflex.

What do you think about that theory, Cynthia?

Yeah, I think that's pretty solid.

I also just don't think that it's as gross as Joel does.

They're individually wrapped.

There's, I don't know, there's, I just don't think it's that big of a deal.

When you squeeze the cookie, are you leaving it deformed?

No.

Are you literally leaving your fingerprints in the cookie?

It's just as if I just pick it up and can just tell from just the just picking up the cookie.

Just by picking it up.

I don't have to, like, I'm not like, you know, squishing it.

It's just like a light pickup.

You're not from that.

Biting it like a piece of eight.

Right.

Right.

Why don't you just pick your own cookies?

Well, I do if I'm going to get this food myself, but because this location is so convenient for Joel to pick up dinner on the way home, it's also, there's not a ton of healthy options for takeout near us, I would say.

And so this one is a little healthy.

So I do like to get it when I can.

How old is your daughter?

She'll be two in October.

Why don't you just send her to buy a cookie?

I can't.

I'm sure she'd love to squish some cookies.

That's age appropriate.

She would.

Yeah.

Do you take them from, I'm still visualizing this.

Do you just snake your hand into the pile

and just

doodle your fingers around a little bit like you would if you were shoving your hands into a sandpit?

Or do you like pick them up and move them over into a new pile of tested but unsatisfactory cookies?

What's the physical process going on?

It's more like, I mean, to go back to the nice CD reference, it's almost like if there was a row of CDs, but like in a store where they're kind of together and you kind of just shuffle through them to kind of look at the, you know.

You're crate digging.

Exactly, Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Hashtag dusty fingers.

You're not, and you're not squeezing.

Are you squeezing or are you not squeezing?

It's not like a hard squeeze.

It's a, it's a firm hold

fair enough so joel has never squeezed a cookie for you even a firm hold cookie for you do you feel let down by him in the marriage i don't feel let down but i do feel frustrated and disappointed that i don't have a cookie is there any is he in other ways a pretty good husband and partner and friend and whole human being in his own right

Yes, he is.

This is the one thing.

This is the one.

The one name.

I'm sure if I was really pressed, i could think of some other small things well i'm gonna i'm gonna give you a firm hold i'm gonna give you a little squeeze on that one no don't look for fights in life that's the first rule of this podcast don't look for disputes i didn't even really realize this was a dispute until he told me that he submitted it to be on the show so you didn't know that it made him uncomfortable i knew that it made him uncomfortable i didn't realize that his discomfort was to the level of needing an injunction to have me stop asking him to do this to be fair on every episode of this show, we beg people to send in nonsense like this.

Yeah, we definitely talked about it prior to me submitting it.

That wasn't the first time you were aware of me being like, I don't really want to do this.

Right.

But the level of your discomfort I was unaware of.

Do you want him to learn how to pick a cookie better?

and bring you the right cookie?

Or would you like him to bring you no cookie at all?

What's your preference?

If he's willing to

touch them and to give them a firm hold, then I would like him to learn.

But if he's not, then I would prefer just no cookie.

Are the cookies in a sealed wrapping or are they just in a plastic sleeve with an open top?

With like a light adhesive.

So it's a fold over kind of situation.

With a sticker.

Okay.

I wouldn't call it airtight, that's for sure.

When you are selecting your cookie or when you're selecting her cookie, are there people behind you in line do you feel like you're holding up the line um there are normally there's almost always people in line i think the pacing of it because it's one of those they kind of make it as you go down the line where i i do think the time or making people wait is not a factor and cynthia when you're rifling through these cookies no one has ever made a comment to you of any kind Nobody has ever made a comment to me.

I think that if there were people waiting behind me in line, I would not, I would just would not get a cookie because that to me would make me feel uncomfortable if I was holding people up with my cookie searching.

But to Joel's point, there's rarely somebody just waiting right behind you to pay.

And so I feel like there's ample time to select a cookie.

And the 60% of the time that Joel brings back an insufficient cookie, what happens to the bad cookies that Joel brings home?

I eat them.

Oh, you eat them.

It says here, Cynthia, that your ideal ruling is for Joel to do as he instructed and gets and get to rifling.

Is that correct?

That is correct.

You should just do it.

That would be my ideal scenario.

And if there isn't one there, that is to your you've trained him to pick a cookie to your satisfaction.

If he does not find one, then he's got to go get some fish fruit ice cream at the thing next door.

Yes.

Why is that unreasonable, Joel?

Well, I'll just say that,

yeah.

The

overcoming the social stigma of squishing the cookie, if it were ruled to do so, I would do it.

One,

I have a feeling I wouldn't necessarily still bat a thousand, even with that.

I think Cynthia has some alchemy to her touch or something that makes her, how she makes her decisions.

But I also feel strongly based on what I learned earlier this week and a prolonged discussion about this we had internally that my batting average of visual inspection would be higher.

Wait, I'm not sure I followed that.

Your batting average would be higher under what circumstances?

Well, for the first time,

when we went earlier to the restaurant earlier this week, she indicated that like you can kind of see the greasiness, like all that stuff was new information that was not previously shared about the visual inspection that she does.

So I think if I applied that going forward, I would do better than 400.

So

you're saying that you can do better without squishing?

Based on what I know now, yes.

Right.

Okay.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm here in my summer chambers, so I'm going to rifle through the LPs in the other room, come back after touching a lot of things, and I'll give you my verdict in a moment.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Cynthia, how are you feeling about your chances in the case?

Not great.

But, you know, I think a lot has come out of this case.

And I think even if Joel wins this case, that he will be better at identifying cookies for me.

And so I'm excited about that.

It's a real win-win in that way how are you feeling joel

i'm torn i i have a feeling the judge uh has been underplaying his his belief on the grossness of this this practice uh so far through the podcast so i'm hopeful on that end anyway we'll see what judge hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcast.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge John Hodgman Road Court is getting ready to roll.

We're getting the, we bought the, we bought the Madden Cruiser.

I don't know.

I wish, I wish we were going around in a big tour bus, but we're going to do a whole mixture of planes, trains, and automobiles to bring Judge John Hodgman live to you.

If you've been listening to this episode, it would seem that you have been.

You know just how much fun a live episode can be.

Well, guess what?

We're coming to a city near you, I hope, including New York City, Philadelphia, going back to Washington, D.C., first time to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, first time to Ann Arbor, Michigan, which is a a free show at a library.

We're going back to Madison, Wisconsin, the Fitzgerald Theater in St.

Paul, Minnesota.

First time in Burlington, Vermont, home of the fish food.

Portland, Maine.

We're coming back with Joel Mann and the night and day jazz trio.

I hope, Joel, you say yes?

We're in.

All right, good.

Turners Falls, Massachusetts is a reunion with Monty Belmonte in my old hometown.

And my real hometown, Brookline, Massachusetts, is welcoming us at the place where I used to work when I was 19 years old, the Coolidge Corner Theater.

And then when we skip over into 2025, because you know it's coming, we're going to be in Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Oregon, Los Angeles, and San Francisco as well.

Tickets are on sale now for all of these dates at maximumfund.org slash events.

Go there for more info and click those links and get those ticks.

Maximumfund.org slash events.

Get those tickets.

A lot of those shows are already starting to fill up.

I saw, for example, you know, this is our first time in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Right now, Pittsburgh is leading the pack sales-wise.

It is getting close in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Grab your tickets for all all of these places.

It's different in every single place.

Yeah, that's right.

It's a different show every night because we have different disputes every night.

And that's thanks to you.

If you have a dispute that you'd like us to consider for a live adjudication on stage, submit it now to maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

Make sure you let us know that you want us to consider it for the live show in the city where you live.

And remember, maximumfund.org slash events.

Tickets are really going quickly.

So get over there, get your tickets, and get us your disputes at maximumfund.org slash jjho.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Okay, before I render my verdict, I just need to ask Joel Mann a question.

Joel, I'm gonna ask you a question, and I don't want you to think about it.

I just need your gut reaction.

Okay, I just need you to not get into your head again.

Okay,

squishing cookies, cool or not cool.

Not cool, doesn't feel cool to me either.

I have to say, no, I have to say, it doesn't feel cool cool to me.

I mean, first of all, it wasn't that long ago when we weren't even allowed to be in the same room with each other.

And now, and now one thing that I thought was never going to come back was salad bars.

Now we're breathing all over each other's food.

There's like open, open vats of guacamole and the Sky Club at the airport.

And all of a sudden, we're feeling each other's cookies.

And this is fine.

Perhaps I'm a little oversensitive to it.

But I mean, the truth is that, like, you know, yes, it is, I guess, socially acceptable to sniff a peach and squeeze an avocado, but you have to be very tentative with it, right?

Because you might be, you're ruining, you could be potentially ruining that piece of produce for the person behind you.

And if you're standing in a line and you're thinking to myself, I might want to get myself a cookie.

And then you watch,

you watch Joel or Cynthia like just touch each cookie, even with the plastic there.

I have to say, I would find it to be on a baseline unappetizing.

And this is where the categorical imperative comes in.

We've talked about it before.

Remember that Joel Mann, the categorical imperative?

No.

Do act as though what you're doing is a universal principle that everyone will do, basically.

Don't write me Kant fans.

I got it right pretty much.

You know, you act as though what you're doing is a universal principle.

So for example, is it cool for me to squeeze a cookie?

So as long as it's cool for everyone to squeeze a cookie, how would you feel?

I probably should have asked Cynthia at one point if she were waiting in line and and someone had squeezed all of the oatmeal cookies before her.

Cynthia, would you still get a cookie?

Yeah, probably.

All right, then you win.

Goodbye.

I'm just going to say that I think that what Cynthia is doing is kind of on the bubble of acceptability.

You know, started out by talking about squeezing and then it became just a firm hold and then a visual inspection.

I think

that

if you were to go in there, Cynthia, on your own

and

touch all of the cookie wrappers to determine the cookie that you wanted to get, I'm not going to stand in the way of that because I feel like, to a degree, that's therapeutic to you because this is an area where you

don't feel a certain measure of social anxiety.

And that's probably a good thing for you.

And I take you at your word that probably the person behind the counter does not care.

And while I would be skeeved out by it, I'm not going to eat a cookie cookie anyway because that's just not who I am.

But

I would find in

Joel's case, you should not be forced to do something that makes him uncomfortable

because it intrinsically makes him uncomfortable.

It might make other people uncomfortable.

We don't have evidence of it one way or the other, but you're looking at me and you can see I'm hunched up.

I feel a little uncomfortable with all this cookie touch and talk.

I don't think Joel should have to do it.

I think that you should both, and I'm going to order you both, to go to this restaurant a few times

and do strong visual examinations of the cookies.

Go on an off hour so you're not holding up the line.

But really, Cynthia, hold a seminar for Joel.

Say, like, I think, which ones do you like?

And Joel will point them out without touching.

And then you can go, you're wrong, you're right, you're wrong, that one, whatever it is.

Teach him your visual criteria, right?

And teach your daughter.

Teach your children well.

They're the future, after all.

Pretty soon she's going to be out there selecting cookies for you and then for herself.

And rely upon Joel to learn and improve without going through the literal motions of flipping through all the cookie LPs in the bin, because I just don't think people love the idea of watching someone else touch all their cookies.

I just don't think it's, I don't think it's really, I got to go with Joel, man.

I don't think it's honestly, i think you're cool cynthia i think you're cool i think you have good taste you like what you like and i think that it's valuable that you advocate for yourself and i think that it's right that you're like i want the cookie i want or no cookie at all if not the cookie i want go get fish food i think that that's i think that's a good impulse and i'm and i'm glad that i you know i think that it's so much on the i'm going to get letters but i'm going to say if you're alone in the woods and a tree falls and you're and you're feeling cookies and there's no one there to hear it or observe it except for a teen teen who's just waiting for the clock to

reach a certain time so he, she, they can go home.

I'm not going to stand, I'm not going to stand in your way.

It never happened as far as I'm concerned.

But, Joel, you never have to squeeze a cookie again in your life.

Look for the indicators of the squishy cookie.

And I bet you can do it better more often than not.

As far as the going to the second location for fish food, maybe you just get us, maybe you just go to both locations no matter what, cover all your bases.

finally before i go joel man

here in maine yes favorite cookie what is it shortbread did not see that coming this is the sound of a gavel cookie

judge john hodgin rules that is all shortbread i'm stunned but you know what i respect i like shortbread too it's like a pecan sandy without the pecans

yeah i mean it's a it's basically a piece of butter

let's do it

as long as the butter butter is soft enough, I do have to squeeze the butter before I ever buy it at the supermarket.

Go on, Jesse Thorne.

I apologize.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Carolina Joel, how are you feeling about the decision in this case?

I feel exonerated on all counts.

And yeah, I feel great.

It's what I wanted.

And I will pledge, of course, I want my wife to have delicious cookies.

And I will do my utmost to make sure I can identify them visually.

Cynthia, how are you feeling?

I'm a little disappointed, but I understand.

I definitely can see how it's gross.

And again, I don't want Joel to feel uncomfortable.

And so I respect and will not ask him to touch any more cookies.

Have you ever thought about this, Cynthia?

I'm just throwing it out there.

Keeping ice cream at your house?

I have thought about it.

It just, it goes real quick.

It goes real quick.

We're all big ice cream fans at our house and it does not last long.

The other day, I said to my therapist, she asked for some reason if I have a healthy diet and I said, yes, I do eat ice cream every day.

She said, Jesse, I love that for you.

Well, thank you, Joel and Cynthia, for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

In just a moment, we will dispense some swift justice.

First, our thanks to Redditor Mick Becker for naming this week's episode Ginger Snap Judgment.

You can join us on the Maximum Fun Reddit.

That is at maximumfun.reddit.com.

That's where we name these episodes and discuss the shows and have a good time generally.

Yeah, just have a really nice time, really good vibes at maximumfun.reddit.com or r slash maximum fun if you prefer.

You can find evidence and photos from this show on our Instagram account.

That's at judgejohnhodgman.

You can also find us on TikTok and on YouTube at judgejohnhodgman pod.

I would encourage you to do so.

Yeah, full episodes are on YouTube, not just little clips, the whole thing from soup to nuts to squishy cookies.

John and I are also on Instagram.

John is at JohnHodgman, right?

I'm not mistaken.

That is correct.

I'm at Jesse Thorne, very famous.

Just started independent of put this on personal Instagram.

So go follow Jesse Thorne, very famous.

And yeah, make sure and check out those videos because those videos are really neat.

We've got a review here from Apple Podcasts, Sean.

Yeah, I want to say thank you to Civ City94 on Apple Podcasts wrote a really nice review saying the best show that everyone can laugh with.

Five stars.

Thank you, Civ City94.

They write, everyone in my family loves to listen and comment on the disputes every week.

From my 80-year-old mother to my 10-year-old niece.

Everyone agrees Judge Hodgman is the best.

That's very, very kind.

Thank you very much, Siver City94.

And thank you very much to your 80-year-old mother and your 10-year-old niece.

And if you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts, Bunge, you give us a rating and review.

It really does help people find the show.

By the way, go ahead and tell people about the show, however you listen to it.

It really does help.

If you go to the YouTube and you watch the YouTube, please subscribe and hit the notifications and maybe share a video.

Or just say to someone you know, hey, you know what's a good podcast?

Judge John Hodgman.

Joel Mann.

Yes, Judge.

You know what's a good podcast?

Judge John Hodgman.

Judge John Hodgman.

It's my favorite.

It's the shortbread of podcasts.

Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Bruce Roberts at ARP Studios in Charleston, South Carolina, and our pal Joel Mann at WERU Community Radio in Orland, Maine.

Our social media manager is Natty Lopez.

Our podcast is edited by A.J.

McKeon.

Our video editor is Daniel Speer.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

And hey, if that sounds like not a lot of names, it is.

Please join Maximum Fund by going to maximumfund.org slash join.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Sean Ile on the Maximum Fund subreddit says, My girlfriend insists on WhatsApp video calls.

I would rather talk to her without video, like a normal phone call, especially when I am in public.

WhatsApp video calls, Jesse, I think, offer some what they call end-to-end encryption, perhaps.

So you think that they might be talking about their plans to invade the Capitol?

I don't know.

Look,

I don't kink shame.

That one I do.

That one I do.

That one I do kink shame.

But in any case,

as long as you're not walking down the street yelling into your phone on speakerphone with it five feet away from your face, I'm pretty good with whatever.

I don't like video calls either.

So

I'm going to find on Sean Isle's favor there.

But I will say this, Bruce Roberts, who is our producer there in South Carolina, Bruce Roberts is a great name for a guy, also a terrific name for a dog.

Can you imagine having a dog named Bruce Roberts?

He'd be a great dog.

Great dog name.

All right, but I find in favor of Sean Isle.

No thanks, WhatsApp.

It's not for me.

I'm very old.

Can I say this, John?

You know, I read an article the other day that baseball players, major league baseball players, FaceTime, video FaceTime each other to chat in the clubhouse, surrounded by dozens of other people.

They're chatting with other baseball players via FaceTime.

It sounded like the wildest tableau I can imagine, like a hieronym,

like a very handsome Hieronymus Bosch situation.

I don't know why anyone would want the world to hear the other side of their conversation, whether it's a video call.

or a

like a speakerphone call where they're holding the phone five feet away from their face.

That's not for me.

Of course, I'm very old.

Who am I to say?

Oh, that's right.

Me, Judge John Hodgman.

I'm the one who's saying that's bad.

Put the phone up to your ear.

I find in favor of Sean Isle.

With the baseball players, it's a level of comfort in your underpants that I can't even begin to imagine.

Where you're projecting your underpants self into a third-party space and bringing in an underpants person from elsewhere.

Boy, tell you,

talk about

immersion therapy to get over personal anxiety.

I've been in my underpants a lot at the YMCA here in Maine lately.

Did you know that, Joel Mann?

I read about it, yeah.

Yeah, I don't invite you to come by and check it out, but it's happening and I'm feeling better about myself.

Hey, I said before and many times, this is not an etiquette podcast, but why not?

Why not have it be an etiquette podcast for once?

I'm curious to know what disputes our listeners have around what we call quote-unquote social norms, so long as there still are a few social norms.

Let's hear about it.

Do you have a friend who's constantly late and you want me to litigate them into timeliness?

Is your loved one a last-minute plan canceler?

And in fact, in terms of timeliness, we have listeners all over the world.

I would love to hear just right into maximumfund.org slash JJHO, your dispute, but just tell me where you are.

What is allowable lateness in your culture?

Here in Maine, Joel, if I invite you over, and don't worry, this will never happen, but if I invite you over to

my house for dinner at 6 p.m.,

what time would you feel would be okay to arrive by?

Or what time would you get there by, politely?

I would probably 15 minutes late.

Just

give you a little extra time.

Yeah, I mean, that feels right in New England, which is a region of the United States.

It might be different.

In other parts of the country, in other parts of the world, I think it's vastly different.

Let me know.

I'm just curious to know.

Send in those disputes and that

data that I requested at maximumfund.org/slash JJHO.

That's where the disputes go.

And you know what?

It doesn't matter what the dispute is about.

I think we've proven on this cookie episode that we'll hear whatever you got.

Go to maximumfund.org/slash JJ H.O.

Let's hear them.

Send them to us, baby.

Okay, that's it.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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