In Photo Parentis

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, in Photo Parentis, James brings the case against his wife, Morgan.

James put up some photos of the extended family in their home.

Morgan wants him to take them down.

They can go back up in 20 years when the couple is closer to grandparent age.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

This absence of people should be and feel unnatural and place the scene in a clear limbo.

Liminality in this way naturally draws on other concepts, although only pertaining to physical people, the concept of canopsia defines well the kind of emptiness we seek, pertaining to the surreal atmosphere of an empty place usually populated by people.

This ties in with the abstract transition of a place being

between uses.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

James Morgan, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

I do.

You swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he doesn't show up in photographs like some kind of dang Dracula.

I do.

It's not true it's not true judge hodgman you may proceed it's not true anyone can go and see me and see that i am i'm not a dang dracula over on our youtube channel right now where you might notice this episode i got a little haircut do you notice that jesse i got a little haircut you look great you look great in my little monitor that i have thanks you look great too and so do you james and morgan and we are back at the sycamore the studio uh not far from columbus oh

where we last spoke to Casey and Matthew.

You remember that Casey wanted to buy a church and a bank and a castle.

Now we have James and Morgan in there.

James and Morgan, hello, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favorites.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom?

I don't know.

Morgan, you go first.

Well, the first thing that came to my mind when you said, I think canopsia or something reminded me of Barbie, but I know that has nothing to do with this.

Oh,

canopsia.

Yeah, no.

Yeah, no.

Canopsia, and I'll give you a hint.

That is the eerie atmosphere of a place that is usually bustling with people, but is now abandoned.

That's a term from the dictionary.

But I'll put down Barbie.

I'll write it down, and I'm going to write it down.

B-A-R-B-I-E.

If you think I'm faking it, check out our YouTube channel.

I wrote it right down.

Morgan, that was a good guess.

What is your guess over there, James?

I mean, since I have no idea and she went with Barbie, I think I have to go Oppenheimer, right?

Sure.

Absolutely.

Got to go Oppo.

Got to go Appo.

Got to do your Appo research.

I'm just writing Appo because I don't have all day to write these things down because all guesses are wrong.

Throw that on the floor.

All guesses are wrong.

The answer was one, but one of many bullet points in the rules, the posting rules of the subreddit called Liminal Spaces, which is a subreddit devoted to posting unnerving photos of typically abandoned places.

They define liminal space, and it's really

tricky because if you post something that's merely creepy, you're going to get flamed.

A liminal space is a transitional space, a space that connects other spaces, like a corridor or a road, or spaces that you transition through often without paying attention to, like an airport skybridge or a steam tunnel, someplace that is mundane, a place, especially empty spaces that feel abandoned and uncanny and a little unnerving.

Like, for example,

I don't know, James and Morgan, your dining room.

Yeah, that's true.

Now, I mean this in the nicest way possible.

Yeah.

But you send in some photos of your home as evidence, which people can go and see on our show page at maximumfund.org, as well as on our Instagram page at judgejohnhodgman.

And your home is lovely, but your dining room scares me.

It does need more in it.

We'll get into it in a second, but I just want to say that this one photo of the dining room where you see the stairs to the upstairs, this is truly, I think, could be posted on limital spaces and not get taken down because it's a transitional space between a living area and a kitchen, and there are the stairs going up.

And you also have two different styles of three different styles of flooring.

Yeah.

This transitional wall-to-wall carpet between tile and what looks like hardwood or laminate hardwood.

And there's nobody in these photos.

It was a little scary to me, this particular one.

And even though there is one picture on a wall, and some of the, in some of the other photos, we see a lot more, but there is an element of spareness and bareness to these walls, which is part of why we're here today, because we're talking about wall decoration, right?

So let's get into it.

Who comes to seek justice in this fake court of law?

I do.

Who is that speaking?

Jim, James.

Oh, would you prefer that I call you Jim?

Either is fine.

All right, Jimmy.

What is the nature of the justice that you seek?

I seek to put up more photos on the walls.

I'm from a big, extended, close family, and I would like to have more of the aunts and uncles and cousins displayed on the walls.

And you have some up there already, correct?

Yeah, but that's pretty much immediate family, like siblings and nieces and nephews, yes.

Oh, you want to go?

Do you want to go

full chronology, like back in time?

Not necessarily back in time.

I mean, the ones that lived lifetimes that overlapped with mine would be nice.

Do you want me to send you the photos that my dad has of my great-grandparents?

Sure.

I'll put it next to my grandparents' wedding photo.

Jimbo, you know that nieces and nephews are by no definition immediate family.

No, but they're the immediate family of our immediate family.

Okay, got it.

Jimmy James, you want to be putting up many, many more family photos than are up already, correct?

Yes.

And Morgan, you say, no.

Why do you hate family photos?

Particularly, why do you hate Jim's family?

I do not hate Jim's family.

I actually like them very much.

No, they are very kind people.

You just don't ever want to look at their faces.

Well, kind but homely.

I'm okay with having some pictures in our house of extended family, but not that many.

I think it's more important to have pictures of immediate family in the house.

And why?

It reminds me of going to like a grandparent's house

because usually when you go to a grandparent's house, they have pictures of all of the extended family in the house so it just it reminds me of this older type of house and you're not a grandparent right no

you're you're a parent you're both parents right you have you have kid kids what what do you got two kids two kids and they're young right they are yeah they're young like you are jim that's what i think that's what morgan's trying to say too young to have all these family photos because it makes you feel like uh you're visiting a granddad so i'm like my dad who's got, who is a granddad, and he's got pictures of my great-grandparents up there.

Yeah, Jimbo, why do you want to put out a bowl of dietetic candy?

Yeah.

What do you want a bowl?

You want a bowl of Brock's?

I think part of it might be, you know, I grew up so close to a lot of my cousins and aunts and uncles, and we aren't seeing them quite as frequently now that my grandparents have passed away.

And I'm sorry to hear that.

Thank you.

And the pandemic, you know, put the kibosh on that for a year or two.

And so it would be nice to see those faces of of the people that I don't get to see as often as I used to.

Where did you grow up?

In central Ohio.

Where you live now?

Yes.

So why don't you get to see them?

Did they move away?

Half of my cousins and siblings have moved out of the state.

Where'd they escape to?

I've got a sister in Michigan.

I've got a brother in Colorado.

I've got a cousin in.

You have a sister who left Ohio for Michigan and you still want to talk, you still want to keep a photo of her?

I know that.

You got to remember what she used to be like before she betrayed him.

My family are huge Buckeye fans, so it has been a point of contention.

But

her husband has a very similar family of huge Michigan fans, so we tolerate him.

I like to imagine that when he says his family is a huge bunch of Buckeye fans, that they're just fans of Buckeyes,

not college football Buckeyes, but just the actual tree nuts.

I have an aunt that has a Buckeye tree, but my mom grew up next door to Archie Griffin, so they're very, very close.

All right, all right.

I know I introduced this, and I was very pleased with myself for even knowing about a sports rivalry.

I credit Jordan Clepper with introducing me to that, but now you're talking about probably a coach, right?

Probably a coach you're talking about or a player?

A player, Morgan.

What do you do?

I work at Ohio State University.

Oh, literal.

You're a literal buke.

Yes, I am.

What is a buckeye?

It's like a, it's like a, yeah, it's like a tree nut.

Looks like a sort of like a a chestnut.

Yeah.

Oh.

And it falls on your head or something.

It looks vaguely like the eyeball of a male deer.

Not quite, but enough that that's what they, it got its name from.

Why don't they call it a deer ball?

Enough.

Enough already.

Enough, enough buckeye talk.

Tell me which family members are currently represented in your home decor.

Walk me through it.

I'm going to look at the evidence and people can look at it too if they want over at the websites that I mentioned before.

So there's pictures of us and our daughter.

No pictures of our son yet.

We are overdue on getting that up.

But your son is photographable.

He is, but he's too.

We've just been busy.

We have like a wedding picture from my brother's wedding.

So all of us together, which includes all of my siblings and my parents.

And then we have some individual pictures of a couple of my siblings and one of my siblings' family.

And then we also have pictures from our wedding of us with our siblings and with our parents.

And Morgan, is this already too much?

Yeah, it is.

Which ones would you like to get rid of?

There's a whole wall in our dining room of extended family that I would like to get rid of.

There are multiple angles on your dining room.

And I will say this: only the one angle creeped me out.

The rest suggest a very comfortable and extremely tidy home.

Are you equally tidy?

We try to be.

James, do you believe that you are equally tidy?

In the main living spaces of the house, yes.

I mean, this is pretty god or whatever damn tidy you two.

Like, I don't see this very often.

Did you stage these photos?

I mean, you know, did you have a professional come in and stage your house to put take photos for this podcast?

Because that would have been a wild waste of money.

No, there are a couple of things on the floor in the photos, and I was worried she'd be really mad that that happened, but they're not very.

Oh, yeah, there's like a throw pillow down.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, normally when people share photos of their home, it's like, I wonder if they've taken a t-shirt cannon full of dog hair and just blasted the place before they took the photo.

But this is looking, this is very, this is very, very spare, I would say.

Whose, whose sensibilities does this represent, Morgan?

Yours or James's?

Yeah, probably more mine.

Yeah, yours.

I will say this.

So I'm looking at sort of the the wall of family photos in the dining room.

And I see like, this is the photo that sort of has a nest thermostat and then three photos.

Yes.

Whose photos are these, just so I know?

Well, two of them are our family photo, or immediate family.

The other one is the one of your brother's wedding.

Yes.

And you like all of these down from this wall, right, Morgan?

No, I like the one of my immediate family, but the one of the brother's wedding, I think.

Would you want to replace them with something else?

I would like to have more decorative art pieces on the wall.

I was going to say, you know, I noticed that there is a, I mean, perhaps you have only taken photos of the family photos, which would be reasonable.

But in this spot in particular, it feels like you have three small family photos where one nice piece of art could go.

Yes, I agree.

I think that this photo size issue needs to be addressed directly.

Judge Hodgman.

I know I've danced around it for too long.

Go ahead, Jesse.

Wade in.

How did you end up with tiny, tiny pictures on big, giant walls?

Well, I think it's also the angle of the picture

that you took of the picture.

It's clear in all pictures.

In all pictures, there are four by six photographs in frames on giant walls.

One to three tiny photographs on a big, giant wall.

I think one's an eight by ten.

The canvas is a little bigger.

That's the size of a piece of notebook paper.

Bring that 8x10 down to the dry cleaner and sign it for them.

Now, Morgan, do you agree or disagree that these pictures, no matter what they're of, too small for the walls?

Yes or no?

Do you agree or disagree?

I agree.

You agree.

Okay.

There is one room that feels a little bit distinct from the others.

And this is a room that looks packed full.

It's got bookshelves that's packed full of books and maybe, and then a bunch of collectibles, including the character Q from the first episode of Star Trek the Next Generation dressed up as a judge, which you know, I'm a big fan of that costume.

Whose collection is this?

Oh, definitely mine.

Yours.

Okay.

It's got a lovely brio of, it's got a lovely feel of nerdery to it.

Would that be fair to say?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And there's a photo of a beloved family member on the wall here above Q.

Who is that?

That is my grandmother.

And can you describe what your grandmother is doing in the photo?

She's hanging out with some anime guys.

She is giving the photographer the middle finger.

This room feels alive to me.

Morgan, how do you feel about this room?

I think it represents Jim.

You two have a good marriage.

How long have you been married?

15 years in June.

Oh, well, happy anniversary in advance yeah

and how long have these uh family photos been on the dining room wall would you say morgan almost since we moved in so which would so what was your reaction when you saw them for the first time did you know that uh jim james was going to put these photos on the wall or what well did we have them up in our last house we did yeah but i don't remember where they were in the last house we moved into this house about two and a half years ago okay so they're holdover from our last house.

So it wasn't surprising when they were put back up on the wall.

In the photographs, they're small enough that I can't see anything in the photos.

And it kind of makes me feel like when you say they've been up since you moved in, that they were there before you moved in.

And did you ever ask him directly, can we just take these down?

We've had conversations about it.

And

how does the conversation go?

I'll play you.

You play James.

Hi, James.

It's me, your spouse, and whole human being in my own right, Morgan.

I noticed you put those pictures up.

We didn't talk about it.

It's not my favorite.

I'd like to put something else up in there.

How do you feel about that?

I like having pictures of my family up.

I like to see them on the walls.

James, have you received a specific request to take these photos down, at least in the dining room, and put up something else?

No.

Why not, Morgan?

Why wait for a podcast?

I feel like maybe I've said it once.

You've expressed that you would like them less family photos.

You haven't said you wanted to replace them with anything.

So, but okay, so Morgan, you have requested,

made a general request, fewer family photos.

Yes.

But you could understand why that could be interpreted

in many ways

and that James is prepared to interpret it to his benefit.

Yes.

We're at an inflection point because, James, you would like to add more, correct?

Yeah, I've tried to and she's kind of like moved them in places that aren't very visible where did morgan put them uh in the the living room where there's the record stand like i had them up on top of the record stand and she put them down like in the record stand where they're kind of hidden this living room photo

this is the one which has sort of um the there's a piano in there

there are framed images on the wall here are those family photos or is that art i can't tell Above the piano are our wedding photos, four photos from our wedding.

And then above the record player, that is a piece of art that I believe you made and your mom framed for you.

And do you like that piece of art, James?

Yes, I do.

Good.

But I want you to answer this question.

How many more photos have you got?

And where are they?

Are they ready to go?

What's going on?

No, I don't have any ready to go.

I would probably go through the giant tub of photos and try to pick out some nice ones if she allowed.

Please.

Describe the giant tub of photos.

It's like one of those plastic bins, storage bins, that's maybe like, I don't know, a couple feet by 18 inches and that deep.

And I've got almost

one full.

And it's full of photos.

Yes.

Of your family or of miscellaneous subjects?

Almost entirely of my family.

You have

a plastic bin full of photos on paper.

Are we speaking to you in the past?

I mean, I also have a record player, so yeah, maybe.

And how large are these photos?

I mean, most of them are the standard by sixes, but we have some larger ones that are older.

And do you have a vision for where they would go all over the place or on a particular wall or throughout the dining area or what?

Two tiny ones on each wall in your home?

I mean, I've never.

Really near the ceiling for some reason?

I don't know.

Yeah, think about it that way.

I don't think I've ever dared to dream enough to actually come up with a plan because I knew it would immediately be shot down.

So

I don't have a specific plan, but I would say any place that where there's a couple of feet of empty wall, we should have something on there.

And I'd probably put a photo or two or three.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org slash join.

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Jesse and John sent you.

It does feel like your photo placement to this point has just been one photo every few feet.

That's been the main, like just one four inch by six inch photo every four feet on the wall.

Yeah, she dictated where they would go roughly.

And so I just, yeah.

Have you ever considered grouping smaller photographs into more substantial,

less frequent displays?

Oh, yeah, definitely.

So why don't you do that?

Not allowed.

Where did this tub of photos come from?

Are they photos you've taken or did you collect them from other family members or what?

It's really been basically my whole life.

Not that I take.

paper photos anymore.

Now they're all anyone we've taken the last 10 years is digital on the computer.

But yeah, so these are mostly photos from childhood ones i took or my family members took and my mom at one point went through all her photos and gave me a bunch of them that i was in because she was slimming down how many she was holding on to so and then we have some photos from after her mother passed away we got a bunch of her family photos from her house and i added them to the tub so yeah we've got quite a few

And I presume you would want to represent Morgan's family as equally as your own, right?

That's not what this is about, is it?

No, I mean, she has a smaller family, so it it would probably be fewer photos, but I would want to represent them

proportionately equally for sure.

Morgan,

what is your vision for the walls of your home that's currently being stifled by your husband?

I would like some more artistic pieces on the wall.

I would like some family photos, more of our immediate family, but I would also like some more artistic pieces on the wall as well.

I will say we have a couple of pieces in the house that we have, and we did not include them in here, but we have

The Son of Man by Renee Magritte.

We have a

photo of that, like a poster of it.

Like a print, yep.

And we also have.

It would be awesome if the, if the, like, uh, if the payoff to this was that you just had the painting.

This is the famous painting of the, of the gentleman with the business dude with a big green apple in front of his face.

Yes.

Yeah.

If you had the original Magritte, that would be pretty intense.

Yeah.

Like, we got these four by six photos of cousins, cousins.

I got about a dozen of those.

We got a Magritte, two Chagalls.

Yeah, we also have another Magritte, too.

This is Not a Pipe.

We have that as well.

So we both like that.

And

my mother actually put a framed picture of Jim's poster from Battlestar Galactica in a nice frame.

It's, and you can explain what the scene is, but it's this scene.

It's a a Last Supper scene from Battlestar Galactica, and it's hanging up above our fireplace.

And I'm, you know, it's a nice picture, so I'm, I'm fine with that.

I mean,

Jim, you have a, that's a pretty famous photo from Battlestar Galactica,

uh, where the cast is is uh recreating the famous uh positioning of the of the painting, The Last Supper, by blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Michiangelo da Vinci, or whatever.

Yeah, who is it?

That's one of those ninja turtles.

Who did the Last Supper?

It's Leonardo Vinci.

Okay, good.

And it's the entire cast

minus, unfortunately, they ended up editing me out of it.

I was in one, I was the brain guy.

I was the brain doctor in one episode in the final season.

I didn't get into the Last Supper.

I was painted in the overflow room.

It's pretty cool that you have a...

that you have a spouse who will let you hang a Battlestar Galactica fan poster above your fireplace in your living room.

That's a pretty major display area in any home, wouldn't you say?

Oh, absolutely.

I was really surprised she let me, but her, as she said, her mom did frame it really nicely.

So it actually looks like a piece of art and not just a geek poster.

Maureen, you said that having extensive photos of extended family

kind of feels like a grandparent-y vibe.

Did that describe like your grandparents' house or is there a place you're thinking thinking of?

Not only my grandparents' house, but also Jim's grandparents' house and his mom.

Now she's a young grandma, but it's also kind of filtering on into her house as well.

What does a grandparenty vibe feel like to you?

When you're when you're in a house like that, how does it make you feel?

It just feels kind of dated.

You didn't marry James's mom.

You married James.

Right.

Yeah.

James, your mom has extended family photos throughout the house?

Not throughout the whole house, but the main living spaces, yes.

And did she always have them up?

Was this

part of your decor growing up?

Or did she add onto it as she got older?

We always had quite a few, I think, but yes, she's definitely added to it as she's gotten older.

James, do having a lot of photos of extended family around the house feel like home to you?

Yes, absolutely.

I see.

And do you feel, are you worried that if you don't have them up, you won't feel at home?

I wouldn't say that.

I feel pretty at home in our house.

That's just, if I'm looking at walls, that's what I would like to see on the walls.

Morgan, do you feel at home in your house or just at home at your desk in the corner of the living room?

No, I feel at home in my house, but I would feel better if I had more things on the walls that represented my interests.

So, Morgan, when you look at the photo of the dining room, like, would you be be happy if those precise photos in that configuration were replaced with 8 by 10 Magrittes or something?

Or what's your vision there?

I think I would like more pictures of our immediate family in the dining room.

And then maybe a couple of artistic

pieces on the wall as well.

James, it says here that you're the family historian.

Is that correct?

My younger cousins would say that, yes.

Besides the point that you obviously love your family, why do you collect these photos in a tub?

I don't know.

I have always been interested in history and connection and family.

And I have a degree in history.

And I'm the oldest of my generation on my mom's side, the family.

So

the younger ones always rely on me to tell them the family stories and stuff.

And I don't know.

It just has always felt important to me and that that's kind of my role as the the oldest to keep track of that stuff.

Has your family been in central Ohio for a long time?

Yes, absolutely.

Got it.

Morgan, is James sentimental?

It depends on what it's about.

Okay.

Example, Battlestar Galactica.

Yeah.

If you have him watching a show, he will cry while he watches shows.

But in real life, he doesn't usually shed tears.

James, would you say that Morgan is

unsentimental?

About her immediate family, she's sentimental, But yeah, she does not have the same extended, close family that I do.

She's not close to any of her cousins or aunts or uncles.

So I think that is a big difference in our perspective.

I consider them like close family, and I don't think she has any but one beyond her immediate brothers, sisters that she would call close family.

Morgan, where are your siblings in the world?

My brother is in Columbus as well.

My sister is in L.A.

Do you do you feel that you might, if you're surrounded by images of james's extended family that you might feel chased out of your own home

maybe a little bit oh maybe a little bit how do you respond to that james i mean that's trying to chase her out

how many do you have a photo in particular that you cannot wait to put up james

uh If I had to pick one, we took a huge group family photo when I shortly before my grandfather passed away that has everybody,

almost everybody in that extended group in it.

And that would be great to get a good print of that and blow it up and hang it up.

Where would you see that?

In the dining room, maybe on that empty wall.

All the walls are essentially empty.

I want to be clear about this.

I can't overemphasize this point.

How big are you going to blow it up to?

Maybe

9 by 12?

Or are you going to go all the way way to like 10 by 13?

I'd say at least 10 by 13.

I say four by six feet.

Yeah, I mean

I wouldn't go that big.

This photo isn't has not been entered into evidence.

Can you do you do you have it on your phone or something?

Can you hold it up to the camera?

It would probably take me a little bit of time to find it.

But yeah, it's just a group of people in a living room around the couch, grandparents in the center, the youngest grandchildren on their laps and all their kids behind them, and their kids' spouses, and all the grandkids around.

I appreciate that you paint a wonderful word portrait, but I don't know

how the photo looks.

I mean, what if they all have apples in front of their faces?

Then it's art.

I can try to find it.

It just may take a second.

Yeah, why don't you take a second and why don't you try to find it?

Okay.

I'd love to take a look at that because I'm going to have to decide,

Payle of Jesse, whether or not we're going to make this eight feet by 10 feet and put it all and fill up that whole wall with it.

Yeah, I mean, or at least make it Battlestar Galactica-sized.

So I did not find the specific photo I was talking about, but this is a similar photo that includes even more extended family that might be more

representative of what the kind of photo I'm talking about.

That's a lot of family.

Morgan, what do you think about putting a huge print of that particular photo in your home?

I'm not interested in having that in my home.

All right, but what if I ordered a huge print of that photo being in your home and then no more family photos after that?

Maybe.

I'm trying to strike a bargain here.

Be honest, is that enticing to you or no?

Maybe.

Maybe.

Okay.

Morgan, I have a question.

If it were me,

I think the placement of these photos would feel important.

And I wonder if that's the case for you.

I wonder if there are places in the home where you would be more comfortable with there being a lot of family photos and places where you are less comfortable.

Yes, I would agree with that.

What are those places?

His office is pretty much wall-to-wall with books.

So I don't think there's much space in his office for family photos.

The basement

has a lot of his movie posters in it, which I'm fine with because it's the basement.

Sure.

So that kind of leaves the septic tank,

the living room, dining room area, which I don't really want them in.

So I would say if he wants to take down some of the posters from the basement and put those family pictures in the basement, I'd be more okay with that.

James, I tried to ask Morgan to describe her style and she was stumped.

Can you describe her style?

And I'm talking about decor, the things that she likes to see in a home.

Yeah, I'd say kind of minimalist.

She definitely like hates to have anything on the kitchen counter.

She wants to hide everything away, even the things that we use all the time,

which drives me crazy.

Yeah, I kind of want to live there.

Keep going.

I mean, it would be great if we had like one of those walk-in second kitchen pantry areas with counters and I could put stuff there, but we don't.

So, you know.

No, you chose, you chose a poster basement instead.

That's a trade-off.

Sure.

But yeah, she's got like some like, in terms of decor, she might have like a little, some little fake plant or a little plate with like just colored balls on it.

Morgan, do you feel that you would be, I keep asking like, what would you want to put on the wall instead of these photos in the dining room?

And now I'm wondering, would you rather there just be no photos at all?

I would like immediate family photos.

I'd like more immediate family photos.

You don't want bare walls.

No, I do not want bare walls.

Right.

You don't want to, you don't want to live in a place that looks like

you're going to leave at any given moment in the middle of the night.

No.

Okay.

Morgan, one of these pieces is an artwork that you made, right?

So what kind of, do you make art as a matter of course?

Not anymore.

I used to draw, but I haven't done that for a while.

And James, you didn't submit

Morgan's artwork other than the side view where I can't see it.

Do you have a photo of that that you can hold up to the camera?

I don't, unfortunately.

It would be hard to see with a photo anyway because it's like a white styrofoam she did like carving on.

So it's just a blank piece of paper.

No, but it's it's carved in such a way that you can't get the depth unless you're like looking straight on it.

And it's, yeah, it's cool.

I really like it.

But Morgan, James has a lot of places to express himself in this house with his stuff, I mean, to say.

Do you have a

place that you feel is yours that you can fill up with your own stuff in the same way?

I have a desk in the corner of the living room that I put things on.

Now,

I don't know how to ask this question,

but is that as sad as it just sounded?

Yeah, it really is.

Okay.

I just, what is that?

Do you feel good about the desk in the corner of the living room?

Or do you, or, or, or, or, I mean, you could, you might feel fine with it.

or do you feel like I'm I have a desk right so at a window and a window it's right by a window so I like that so let me go back for a second Morgan to when

Jim put up those family photos what happened when you saw them yeah I just kind of was like oh yeah we had those in our old house so I guess it makes sense we have them in the new house She directed me hanging it.

She didn't just come home and find them.

She told me where I could hang them and directed me to make sure they were level and had to measure from either wall and all that.

That's an interesting thing to do for something you don't want in your home.

Right.

Do you feel like you can't just put your foot down and say no?

I think it's more of the fact that we hadn't bought anything yet that I wanted to put on the wall.

So I was fine with it being on the wall in the interim.

James would like to blow up this huge photo of this family

gathering

and put it somewhere.

And you've talked about the Magritte prints that you have.

Is there something that you would like to put up that isn't a family photo?

I don't really have anything in mind yet.

I'd have to look for something, but I would like something artistic.

And by artistic, you mean not a family photo, but a piece of art.

Right.

A piece of art or some type of ceramic design or something that would go on the wall.

Do you ever go into like antique shops, shops, thrift shops, Goodwills?

Sometimes you can find some pretty fun art there.

I haven't, but I would like to do that.

So, James, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

That I could, I don't want to make her walls too full.

I like not a full, my grandma had walls that were just covered.

Not trying to do that, but I'd say

at least let me put up enough photos that all of my first cousins and

my parents' siblings, aunts, uncles are covered so that the whole clan's represented.

Morgan, how do you feel about that?

I think that's too much.

You think that's too much.

Morgan, were there a lot of family photos, immediate or otherwise, in your home when you were growing up?

We had a number of immediate family.

Each of one of our siblings.

probably a couple of the whole family, immediate family that we had, but we didn't have a lot.

What did you have on the walls of your home?

Do you remember?

Anything you liked?

Yeah, we had some artistic pieces.

Got it.

Yeah.

Anything that you could get your hands on?

Yes, I think we probably still have some of them in storage.

In a storage space that you have somewhere else so that James can put his posters in the basement?

Yeah, I think what's going on in the basement, James?

What do you have down there?

A little hangout area?

A little poster museum?

What's going on?

It's a nice finished basement.

There's a TV and an elliptical machine and some tables and microphones when I do like theater rehearsal and stuff with my podcast troop.

What do you do?

You have a podcast troop.

Tell me about that.

I write a,

I'm sure, I know you're familiar with Thrilling Adventure Hour.

It's kind of like that with our own material.

We've been doing it every month for nine years, live in front of an audience and record it for podcasts.

What is it called?

It's all been done radio hour.

Jesse's been on it.

He's guested for us.

Jesse, is this true and you didn't recuse yourself?

I'll go on any podcast that invites me, pretty much.

My main thing is, look, if you're out there and you want me, I feel like I don't get asked enough to read historical newspaper clippings

or otherwise perform headlines for nonfiction podcasts concerned with the past.

I recently portrayed Gore Vidal.

on a podcast.

I would love to welcome those kinds of invitations.

But yeah, if you've got a scripted fiction podcast, you need Jesse to lay down a few tracks, I'm there for you.

You know me.

I'm the star of television's archer.

Morgan, before I go into my chambers, can I ask you, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor specifically?

That

I think we have enough family photos around, well, enough of his extended family photos around the house.

And actually, I think some of them should be taken down

that maybe we could have a couple maybe in the living room.

But I think that's about it.

Would you be more okay with it if the family photos were all collected together on one wall as part of a sort of wall of photos of family?

I think that might be a little too much.

Unless it was immediate family, then I'd be okay with that.

So you really feel like the extended family cannot go.

That's not okay with you.

I think it's okay if there's a couple of framed photos maybe in the living room, but that's about it.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my poster basement and stare at this framed 9x30 photo of me from Battlestar Galactic.

I'll be back in a moment in my root.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Morgan, how do you feel about your chances right now?

I feel pretty good about my chances.

Why is that?

I think it's just a little unreasonable to have too many extended family photos in your house.

I mean, it's only one every four feet.

Like some kind of weird breadcrumb trail around the the walls of your home.

James, how are you feeling?

I mean, I think the best I can hope for is a compromise ruling.

So I'm hoping that maybe I'll get to have like one nice big photo of everybody, and then maybe I'll have to lose some of the other ones, but I don't know.

I think the judge is fair and wise.

And I'm the one that's listening to every episode of the show, not her.

So I hope he keeps that in mind.

Maybe a nice cluster?

Do you think you could manage a nice cluster?

I'd be happy to do a nice cluster.

Okay.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when he comes back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Law.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case.

What's going on with you?

Oh, I'm just over here at my friend Christopher Frizzell's substack, Frizzlet.substack.com.

That's frizz, F-R-I-Z-Z-L-I-T.substack.com.

I'm looking at this video that he posted of our Middle March book group reading our favorite sentences from that week's Middle March reading.

Oh, I love Middle March so much.

What's one of the sentences?

Well,

I'll read you one of my favorite sentences from this most recent week's reading, which I didn't get to read in book club because Chris read it instead of me by accident.

It was as if he had had a loathsome dream and could not shake off its images with their hateful kindred of sensations, as if on all the pleasant surroundings of his life, a dangerous reptile had left left its slimy traces.

Oh, boy, oh boy.

I'll tell you what, George Elliott, Mary Ann Evans knew how to write sentences and how to put them in order to create a novel.

I'm loving Middlemarch so much.

I think that by the time you listen to this, the book club may be done and I'll be sad for it.

But if you go to frislet.substack.com, you might see some videos of me reading sentences.

And also, you know, who's a member of the book club, Jesse Thorne?

Who?

The incredible Julius Sweeney

from Saturday Night Live and a memoirist and a wonderful, funny writer in person.

It's been such a treat.

I guess I'm just plugging books this week, books and substacks.

Like, if you don't know that you have it in you to read a whole book, why don't you join a book club?

Check out George Saunders, read some Chekhov along, some guided reading experiences.

It can be so much fun.

It's been such a gift in my life.

And I'm so lucky to have been inspired by both our daughter and my wife, both of whom are human beings in their own rights, to read Middle March, which I never would have done.

And it's just been great.

So read Middle March, everybody.

It's terrific.

Or find another book and read it.

By the way, there is a substack called hodgman.substack.com.

What would you find there?

I don't know.

Maybe just me trying to figure out what my creative life is going to be going forward.

It's a lot of fun.

We have good time there.

Hodgman.substack.com.

Jesse Thorne, what do you got going on?

I got some really amazing people on Bullseye.

Many Judge John Hodgman listeners know I host the public radio show Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, which you can get via podcast.

This week's episode is an interview with one of the greatest living American artists, Ed Rucher.

He is 86 years old, I believe, absolutely 1,000% sharp as a tack, handsomer than you and I,

and had just brilliant, insightful, wonderful things to say about Los Angeles and Disneyland and making art.

And

just

one of the greatest painters of our time and a brilliant genius in many forms.

He recently recreated, by the way, he has this piece called Chocolate Room.

And it's just a room that's shingled in paper that's been soaked in chocolate.

Sure.

Just the best.

But anyway, that is a really great interview.

And speaking of people in their mid to late 80s, there's also a great interview coming up next week with the legendary Billy D.

Williams, who is

talk about guys that are handsomer than us.

Wow, exactly.

That's right.

I saw on social media that you got to spend time with Billy D.

Williams.

Billy D.

Williams was in a Broadway show with Lottie Lenya when he was like seven years old.

I'll tell you something.

That's something I never knew about Billy D.

Williams before in my life.

And I wouldn't know unless I were a listener to Bullseye.

You're right.

A lot of listeners to Judge John Hodgman know that you host Bullseye, but what are they doing about it?

Go and listen to Bullseye.

It's an incredible show.

I've learned about so many incredible people through the show.

Also, in our cavalcade of AARP geniuses,

next week we have a really great interview and performance from the legendary folk and rock singer-songwriter Richard Thompson.

Wow.

So if you want to hear Richard Thompson perform

a solo acoustic or actually solo acoustic with backing vocals from his wife, who's a very brilliant musician in her own right,

it's pretty special.

And I know what you're thinking.

Jesse,

at the end, did you make him sing Oops, I Did It Again by Britney Spears?

Uncanny that you knew that I was thinking that.

The answer is, yes, I did make him do that, and it was great.

That's incredible.

I don't think she wrote the song.

I'm sure Max Martin or whatever wrote the song, but made famous by

originally famous and now made extra famous by Bullseye with Jesse Thorne available on radio stations and as a podcast.

Okay, let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Now, obviously, you two are,

I mean, I said it early on, you know, like great marriage.

Very, very tolerant.

It's a rare marriage where a spouse who does not have a native desire to look at the cast of Battlestar Galactica would allow their spouse, their own mother to frame for their spouse a poster and put it in pride of place above the fireplace.

I mean, James,

you're getting a lot of tolerance in this, in this relationship.

Although

I do find your mother, Morgan, Morgan, in contempt of this court because I have a feeling that when she had the poster framed, she didn't um cut the corners off the Battlestar Galactica style.

If you're a BSG person, you know what I'm talking about.

The corners, there are no square pieces of paper, all the corners are cut off.

You should have that reframed immediately.

I'm also going to sentence you to get a large poster of me as Dr.

Gerard in Battlestar Galactica

and a large poster of Jesse Thorne as, what was was your character's name in Archer again?

Hall of Mirrors Guy.

Hall of Mirrors Guy.

And we will sign it for you the next time that

we're in the Columbus area.

Next time we go on tour.

If we're anywhere in the area, you can come to the show and we'll sign it for you and get it framed.

Put it pride of place, pride of place.

But you notice that I say

poster size.

So

these pictures are too small for these walls.

I think that's something that Jesse noticed right away.

And I agree with.

Because look, your style might be small pictures bare walls.

Like, we don't know what your style is.

And I am

in an

accessory ruling, I'm going to order you to figure out what your style is.

Because I feel like you're getting run roughshod here by James's Battlestar Galactica and his Judy Garlands and his cues and his grandma giving the photographer the finger, but giving the whole world the finger.

I mean, if I were you and I would be walking by that grandma, I'd feel like I was getting the finger.

Where's my stuff?

You're an artist, you've got a visual sense, and you need to, uh, you need to, I think, both of you

look through some interior design magazines or websites or something.

Look at how they're decorating the walls, right?

And feel if you vibed anything.

I think that you need a little outside inspiration, simply in terms of making these walls look

a little bit more like a home and a little bit less like a posting to the liminal spaces on the subreddit liminal spaces.

And

I hope that this is not, that you don't take this as an insult.

I mean, you're still filling up this home.

I mean, two and a half years goes by quickly, particularly if you have kids.

Like the last thing you're thinking about is what's going to go on the walls.

But since we're talking about what's going to go on the walls, my primary reason for being inclined to limit James's family photos is they're all the size of like snapshots.

You know, they're all

like the size of Polaroids.

And when, and we'll, we'll talk about what we're going to do with those, with that tub of photos in a second.

But in the meantime, you know, like, sometimes you need a little outside help.

Now, we have a wonderful friend named Sarah Reed.

And if you want, I can put you in touch with her.

She does, she's,

I mean, she's an interior designer who has gone back and forth between being a professional interior designer and then just like, yeah, I just do it for fun for myself.

You can check out her Instagram at Small Victories.

I didn't mean to buzz market her stuff.

This might not be your vibe.

Do you know what I mean?

I only brought it up because Sarah Reed came to visit us in Maine one time.

And we, uh, we had a big blank wall behind our sofa in Maine.

And we didn't know what to do with it.

And we went into an old barn in Maine.

And,

well, I didn't go into it.

My wife is a whole being in the armwright.

And Sarah went into this barn while I was doing something in the car.

And when I walked into the barn, they're like, we just bought a painting.

And I was like, uh-oh.

And it's a ginormous painting of a child who is not mine

and is no longer a child because this painting was painted in like 1977 of a child with a in a sitting in a wing back armchair with a bowl cut and looking depressed as F

as though he had just, he was so mad at presumably his parents' divorce.

It was a very 70s portrait.

I've seen it and I loved it.

It's my favorite thing in your house.

No offense to you.

No, that's fine.

That's right.

We got to hang out together in Maine and we got to do that again soon.

That boy's name is Charles, and we know because it's written on the back of the poster, not the poster, but the painting.

And

we also know that the painting was painted in Brookline, Massachusetts, my hometown.

So I understood why,

why they were both attracted to this.

But I was like, this kid is haunted, and it was going to bring a terrible energy to this house,

but I'm going to give it a try.

And over the years,

that kid has

grown on me.

And indeed, the demonic spirit of Charles has entered my body and now controls me five days out of every week.

I get older and Charles gets younger.

Anyway, scary big painting that you, I did not expect to come to love the painting of someone else's family member.

Do you know what I mean?

If anything, it felt wildly invasive.

But in time, I realized this wall needs a statement.

I'm trying to sell this painting to you.

I would like you to get it out of my house in Maine.

No, I'm trying to say that Sarah Reid was right.

And sometimes you do need someone else to sort of help you see a space in a different way.

And I do think that one of the recurring motifs in your home is small, small pictures in big, empty walls.

And it doesn't, it feels a little off to me.

So

you should go, as I say, and check out some interior design websites or something.

And, you know, I don't know, get a look, buy a copy of HTTV magazine, the airport.

Look at a bunch of different stuff and

go through it together.

And I'm not talking about the kinds of pictures, right?

I'm talking about the size of wall decoration.

I'm talking about the arrangement of wall decoration and see if anything vibes with both of you, right?

And that's a fun project for you to do together.

And I think then you can, whether you work on this together or whether you get some outside help or whatever, then I think you're going to choose stuff for these walls that's going to make them feel more cohesive, have more flow and a little less random, which is, I, I, to my, my eyes, that's how it feels right now.

And to my eyes, the content of the photos doesn't particularly matter because it's hard for me to even see see them.

They're so small.

Now, I'm encouraging you to think about getting a little bit bigger.

I'm also encouraging you, James, to listen to what Morgan has to say.

Having extended family photos throughout the house will make her feel like she's living in a grandparents' house, and that's not her vibe, right?

There's one thing for sure that Morgan has been clear on from the very beginning in terms of what Morgan's style is.

I don't want to live in a grandma's house.

And I think

that means that

you deserve to

mount and enjoy your extended family photos, you know,

and you have a space in which you can do that, multiple spaces, you know.

If you can find space

in your poster basement and move, remove some posters or move some around,

you could do a whole extended James family museum down there,

which, you know, honestly,

if you, if you do it in that way, if you do it in a themed wall, then it's contained.

And I hope that Morgan won't feel that she's wandering around a grandma house, that she's just like, oh, yeah, this is James's weird room, which arguably she feels already.

You got to pick your spot and you've got to maybe make some sacrifices yourself.

But ultimately, you can't keep putting up all the photos all throughout the house because one thing's for sure and it's Morgan's, Morgan's vibe is not that.

You both have to work on figuring out, and I know it's hard, particularly if you have two little kids.

Like the last thing you tend to think of is like wall decoration, but you will feel better in your own house if you both figure out what kind of vibe you want.

and what you're going to put up there.

And I think for Morgan, we're talking about more art pieces, maybe more of Morgan's art if there's any more to put up.

And you're going to find out some new arrangements to make the walls just feel a little bit more aesthetically pleasing to both of you.

You're going to figure out what your vibe is.

But one thing that we know for sure is Morgan's vibe is extended family throughout the house.

Uh-uh.

And I'm going to side with Morgan on that.

You're going to redo that.

You're going to get all your family photos into one place where you can do a rotating exhibit of the extended family, James.

And that dining room, you're going to figure out your vibe together and you're going to solve this problem.

Okay, this is the sound of a gavel.

What is this?

Picture.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

James, how are you feeling about this verdict?

I agree that we definitely need to redesign the dining room, but I am disappointed that the family gets pushed down to the basement.

Family belongs in the basement.

Morgan, how are you feeling?

Good.

I think it's a good ruling.

James Morgan, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

Our thanks to Redditor Dr.

Colossus of Rhodes for naming this week's episode In Photo Parentis.

If you want to name a future episode, join us on the Reddit at maximumfun.reddit.com.

You can also check out other people's suggestions.

It's always fun to see just a list of dumb puns.

A lot of fun.

Maximumfun.reddit.com.

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Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Steve Musa at the Sycamore in Plains City, Ohio, our social social media manager, Natty Lopez, the podcast is edited by A.J.

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Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment, C.T.

Rex Pope on the MaxFun subreddit asks, My toddler will only go to sleep if I sing American Pie.

I demand that they at least let me sing the Weird Al Star Wars version without them having a tantrum yeah sure i'm gonna go ahead and tell your toddler what they like

obviously i wish i could make your toddler go easier on you at bedtime and allow you to sing the weird owl star wars version of american pie if only for a little a little variation in your life

But

I can't change a toddler's mind any more than you can.

And let's face it, CT Rex Pope,

you brought this on yourself.

You started singing American Pie.

You know where this was going to go.

I find in your favor, but it's not going to mean anything to you.

Good luck.

And hey, speaking of songs,

I love a song dispute.

Best songs, worst songs, good songs, bad songs.

Let's hear some more of them.

It's been a while.

It doesn't have to be these songs.

It can be any kind of music.

A few weeks ago, we heard from Doreen.

and her husband, the pianist Shang,

who pretty much called Mendelsohn trash.

Yeah, pretty much said Mendelsohn was a garbage pile.

Yeah, he said it was a garbage pile.

Called Debussilla kind of a dumpster fire too.

Do you agree?

Do you disagree?

Does a member of your folk band want to go electric and you think that you should stay acoustic?

Do you happen to have a Rolling Stones cover band and your lead singer doesn't want to sing Start It Up?

Shut it down.

If you submitted that case to me at maximumfun.org slash JJHO, you know which episode I'm holding it for.

So hang in there, but get all of your song and music disputes to me at maximumfun.org/slash JJHO.

Your ire at one another is the fuel that makes the podcast go.

Maximumfun.org slash JJHO.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

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