Live From Lexington

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne here with John Hodgman.

This week's episode was recorded live at the Lexington Opera House in Lexington, Kentucky.

That's bluegrass country, Jesse.

It was the very start of our tour of this great nation, the Van Freaks Road Show.

Let's go to the stage for our very first case.

Kentucky, you came to us seeking justice, and we're ready to deliver it right here at the Lexington Opera House.

The Court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Please welcome our first set of litigants, Kathy and Carol.

Tonight's case, Wrap Sheet.

Kathy brings the case against her mother, Carol.

30 years ago, Kathy gave her mom a Christmas present.

A small sculpture that Kathy wrapped herself.

Mom, Carol, loved Kathy's wrapping job so much, she didn't want to open it.

It's still wrapped to this day.

Kathy wants Carol to open her present already.

Carol says, no.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

I'll take the spokes from your wheelchair and a magpie swing.

More of this.

And I'll tie them to your shoulders and your feet.

I'll steal a hacksaw from my dad, cut the braces off your legs, and we'll bury them tonight out in the cornfield.

Just put a church key in your pocket.

I'll hop the freight train down the hall.

We'll slide all the way down the drain

to Lexington, Kentucky in the fall.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Starting to wonder if you're just going to be doing that voice permanently.

See what happens.

Kathy and Carol, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's doing that voice again?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Bailiff Jesse, thank you for not revealing the voice, for after all, that is the subject of the obscure cultural reference.

Kathy and Carol, please be seated.

For immediate summary judgment and one of your favors, can you guess the obscure cultural reference that I made just a few moments ago here in the Lexington Opera House?

People love this opera house.

I don't know what it is.

It's really good.

Kathy, let's start with you.

Is it Tom Waits?

Is it Tom Waits?

Can you be more specific?

I have no idea.

All right.

I'll just put down Is It Tom Waits question mark as your guess.

It's a good guess.

Carol.

What's your guess?

I have no idea.

Who do you think the singer is?

Tell her.

Tell your mother.

Don't let her suffer.

Oh, Tom Wait.

Tom Waits.

And what state are we in?

Kentucky.

And what's the next word that comes to your mind as the name of the song by Tom Waits?

Kentucky what?

Our statue.

Yeah.

Pollen.

What did you say?

Pollen.

Pollen?

People listening at home, these are references to the things that happened immediately preceding the start of this case.

That's right.

Bourbon or bluegrass?

That sounds very good for Kentucky, Kentucky.

Unfortunately, the song is Kentucky Avenue, named for an avenue in Whittier, California, where Tom Waits grew up, off of his album, Blue Valentine, 1978, Tom Waits.

In any case, we'll have to hear the case.

I'm sorry, neither of you got the cultural reference correctly, so we have to hear the case.

Who seeks justice in my fake court?

I do.

Kathy, what is the nature of your complaint?

I made a present.

I wrapped a present for my mom, and I gave it to her for Christmas, and she hasn't opened it yet.

And she has not opened it yet.

And Carol, where is this gift now?

Right there.

Right there.

Let the record show she indicated on the floor.

I will pick it up.

Inside of some sort of apricot box.

Yes, in a former Harry and David box, I believe.

Oh, excuse me, Hale Groves.

Very nice.

Which one of you will show me the wrapped present?

I'll do it.

Kathy is showing me the wrapped present.

Aha.

May I examine it?

Yes.

Let me take a picture of this

so that we can share it and illuminate our listeners who are listening after the fact.

That will be on our Instagram page at judgejohodman, our showpage at maximumfund.org.

Jesse Thorne, any guesses as what this present might be?

I believe you said in the intro it was a sculpture of some kind.

My first thought is Tom Waits, but...

Right.

My second thought was horse statue, maybe.

Yeah.

But I'm not sure about that.

Kathy, without revealing the nature of the present, tell us a little bit about it.

Did you make it?

What inspired you?

Again, don't reveal what it is, because the whole surprise of this case revolves around this.

I was shopping with my mom prior to Christmas, and I think it was 1999, because I would have been 17 and able to drive myself, which comes in later.

We were shopping at Pier 1, and she picked up that sculpture and laughed at it and said, oh, it's so cute.

And so then later I went out by myself and bought it.

And then Christmas Eve, I went to go wrap it.

And my dad dad is an avid box collector, but this is before Amazon was delivering boxes collected.

My dad is an avid box collector.

Like all dads.

Is everything okay in your home, Carol?

What kind of boxes does your dad collect?

Shirt boxes, curio boxes, ornament boxes?

Plastic, cardboard.

All the best.

Frankincense, myrrh.

So probably your dad was like, I've got just the box for this statue of an unnamed creature.

Exactly.

We were in the basement looking through boxes to wrap the presents, and I could not find a box for it that wouldn't fit in anything.

Fortunately, we did today.

Well, right now with the advent of science, we have boxes that will fit this thing.

And

back in 1999, we had nothing.

So we didn't have gift bags or anything.

And I thought since she had already seen it at the store, it would be funny to wrap it in the way you see now, which is as close to the surface of the sculpture as possible.

It is.

It is a perfect surface map of the

And it must have taken you some time to get it done.

And it's been kept in remarkable good shape by your mother, I have to say.

Kathy, how did you feel when you spent your hard-earned money on this gift for your mom and then she didn't even bother to open it?

I thought it was funny on Christmas Day as we went around unwrapping presents.

She'd pick it up and look at it and go, No, I'll open this one instead and put it back down.

And then that just kept going.

Just over and over again, Carol, you refused to open the present.

Why?

I didn't want to.

I didn't want to.

Let the record reflect that she didn't want to.

She didn't want to.

Why didn't you want to?

You need more detail.

I don't need, but I'd like.

Okay.

I come from a family of engineers.

All right.

Three brothers.

This was not how I expected this to go.

I'm absolutely enrapped.

Please continue.

By the way, I find in your favorite.

No, hang on.

I'll hold my peace.

Three brothers, a dad, an uncle, grandfather, engineers.

And around the dinner table, we didn't talk about our feelings, how we felt about things.

We talked about what kind of camshaft is good for a racing car and carburetor linkages.

So

when asked during the pregame interview why I didn't want it opened,

I was caught off guard.

Why?

What?

Feelings?

All right.

So just

spur of the moment, I said, well, it was because my daughter gave it to me and that was really sweet.

And she's a kid and didn't have that much money.

La, la, la, la, la.

Let me see if I understand what you're saying.

Your daughter was younger.

She didn't have much money.

It was very cute, the thing that she gave you.

And then she wrapped it in such a cute way.

And you had been to Pier 1 imports, so you knew exactly what this piece of junk was.

The magic was in the wrapping.

You didn't want to destroy it because that was the true gift.

Fair?

I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but fair?

My answer

about,

because she was so, it was a child's gift to her mother,

really did not answer the question.

So if I look over and I see it wrapped, I think.

I think of my daughter's brain and her essence and how proud I am of her.

Wow.

If it's unwrapped,

it's an identified thing that my daughter gave me.

And it's just so much

better for me if I can think of my daughter when I see it.

Kathy,

I think you're losing this one.

Kathy, how do you hate your specialness?

I know.

For a person who comes from a long line of engineers,

an emotionalist automaton like your mom,

she seems to have engineered a response that has truly made us think she is human.

It's true.

She passes the Turing test.

It took several days.

I hope the journey wasn't too painful.

So, how do you respond to that, Kathy?

My response is that I would like it to be either

unwrapped.

The other issue is: I have children, and if you look closely, you can see parts of the wrapping paper that are not as sunbleached as others.

And I think little bitty hands have been trying to peel off the paper because it's been sitting just in the window where anybody can get to it.

And my six-year-old is very sneaky.

Oh, you have children.

I thought maybe there were gnomes or something in the house.

And I don't want it to be unwrapped without her by some children.

And, or I don't want it to be a woman.

You're saying you don't have control of your children and then you might unwrap it.

It's right there.

Right.

And then,

or I don't want it to continue to disintegrate until it falls apart and then is weird.

So either unwrapped or preserved.

Intentionality would be my

intentionality.

You don't appreciate the fact that in a way your mother is unwrapping it, but very slowly.

Yes, by default.

So you don't have a strong opinion as to whether this unknown animal gets wrapped or unwrapped.

You want it to either get encased in plastic in its current state.

What's your suggestion for preservation of the artifact?

There's like Mod Podge, like a coat in a clear coat.

It could be wrapped again in different paper.

It could be wrapped again every year in different paper, which is my husband's suggestion.

Either unwrapped and rewrapped or continuing to build it out until it is just like completely unrecognizable.

These are some of the things that you're talking about.

It feels like you want to take this present back and give it to yourself.

No, that's not my idea.

My idea is

either a display case or unwrapping together with the kids.

What do you think about those options, Carol?

As far as the grandchildren go,

you've heard of the marshmallow test?

I have heard of the marshmallow test.

This is, you give a child a marshmallow and you say, you can eat this now.

Or you can wait, I don't know, what is it, like 25 years?

Yeah.

You give a child a marshmallow in 1999,

and you're going to eat this marshmallow now or wait until 2023, and then you get two marshmallows.

And then the child says, I'll just gonna eat the marshmallow now, thanks.

Why?

I'm not, I'm your child, not a test subject.

What is going on?

Do you love me, or are you an engineer?

I don't understand.

Do I remember it correctly?

Yes.

Okay.

So, in terms of the grandchildren, how does the marshmallow test apply?

Well, they can wait.

Until when, madam?

Until when?

When will this be unwrapped?

I think the paper is sort of turning to dust.

So I think it's unwrapping itself.

I think it's unwrapping itself.

Entropy is doing it.

Is that what you're saying?

Yeah.

Oh, wait.

Are you saying that entropy is doing it, or are you saying that it possesses free will?

because I heard the latter.

No, no, no, no free will.

Do either of you have a clear memory of what this thing looked like before it was wrapped?

I have an inkling because in the intervening time I

found a Christmas ornament

that is shaped similar to that object but is a lot smaller and has a curly tail that it hangs on the tree.

I wrapped that in a regular box and wrote gotcha on it and gave it to her for Christmas.

So we do have that one.

Okay.

And that is my last sort of inkling as to what it might have looked like.

Are you worried that you might be disappointed, that your memory won't serve, that maybe it will lose preciousness once it is unwrapped?

I don't know.

I don't know.

You just want that dang marshmallow.

I do.

Very hungry.

You want it both ways.

Yeah.

Either of both ways.

Either preserved forever or just tear off the wrapping, tear off the bandaid and look at this thing once and for all.

Why does this middle ground make you uncomfortable?

Because it's

left up to chance, things,

just apathy.

Imagine for a moment you don't come from a long line of engineers.

That's really hard.

Your mom worked very, very hard to connect with her emotions.

I can see that this makes you uncomfortable even now as you look at it.

Here, let me turn it around so it's facing you.

Just to maximize.

We're guessing that it's facing you.

We don't know what's in there.

There you go.

Just imagine it leaping towards you.

Imagine it saying meow among many things.

What are you talking about?

How do we even know?

We don't know.

Just one sound of many it could possibly make.

What about your mother not unwrapping it?

How does that make you feel?

I thought it was funny.

But then

it is funny.

It makes funny, but

that I think

it,

leaving it just to the whims of time is kind of sad.

But it feels a little sad.

Yeah.

The wrapping is getting a little bit

run down.

You should see our house.

There may be wallpaper from when I was born taped together at the scenes and the rooms in their house.

And it is currently kept where?

On a windowsill someplace?

Windowsill.

In full sunlight.

Yeah, so it won't be long.

It won't be long for any of us.

Kathy, if I were to rule in your favor, you would have me,

which you have to pick one.

Either preserve it forever or unwrap it with your kids.

Ooh, that's hard to pick.

I would say preserve it better

so that it doesn't disintegrate over time.

Carol, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule?

Entropy, inertia, status quo.

It's all about the rapping.

I just think of her when I see it.

It was so funny that we gave our son a guitar later, and my husband wrapped it like that.

He didn't have a box for it?

No.

Falling down on the job, Dad.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to retire to my chambers for a moment.

I'll be back with my verdict in just a moment.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximum fun.org slash join

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Kathy, how are you feeling about your chances here?

I am feeling okay.

I have no idea how this is going to go.

You know,

when I used to go to the Columbia Park Boys Club after school in the shop class, we had this thing called plastics.

And one of the things, I mean, I'm not suggesting you don't know what plastic is.

This activity called plastics.

And one of the things we did was you could bring something to the shop teacher and they would encase it in clear plastic like

a bug specimen or something like that.

I'm just saying, I know it's in in the Mission District of San Francisco, so you'd have to buy a plane ticket,

but it's available.

It's available to you.

Carol, how are you feeling about your chances?

I mean, I'm right.

I mean.

Well,

well.

Well, please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and delivers his verdict.

Well, I'm right.

The daughter, sister of engineers.

You're not an engineer yourself.

It says here that you're a retired protein scientist.

Is that correct?

Chemist, yeah.

Chemist, excuse me.

Scientific mind, all the same.

I really wanted to unwrap this thing on stage.

I know, I know you did.

I really wanted to get my little, how I say, pause in this thing and bat it around mischievously.

It's a cat.

All right, everyone listening.

We can't be sure.

Everyone.

Well, you're absolutely right because what you convinced me of, Carol, is that we know that it's a cat because you saw it before

and it looks like a cat.

But

now it is wrapped in a kind of ambiguity.

And I am convinced that if you unwrap this cat, the magic of of this gift will die.

But

remaining inside the Schrödinger's wrapping,

this cat is alive and dead at the same time.

Very good.

I was so mad when I read in the notes that Kathy, you did not want to unwrap this cat.

outside of the presence of your children who are not here tonight.

And therefore, I would not get to unwrap it on stage.

You understand to a show person that's death.

Like,

you understand Chekhov's law of wrapped cats?

I have this wrapped cat up here this entire time.

I can't unwrap it in front of the audience.

I want my present now.

How about two marshmallows down the road?

I'll see you in 23 years.

But

I now understand this cat can never be unwrapped.

Yeah.

Never, ever.

Not even by time and the windowsill.

This cat must remain encased in this beautiful wrapping forever.

Now, I do think that it would be interesting

to encase it in lucite or something.

and to truly mount it and make it a work of art.

But I don't think this cat, cat, this cat is not a loose-eyed cat, it's a rapping cat.

You know what I mean?

Like the cat in

the, what's the song?

Opposites attract.

Opposites attract.

MC Scat Cat.

Talking about MC Scat Cat.

He's good friends with Paula Abdul.

Paul Abdul and MC Scatcat.

He's a rapping cat.

He's not a loose-eyed cat.

You know what I mean?

Wow.

I'm sorry, did you say wow or meow?

Two steps forward and two steps back.

Something something opposites attract.

That's not me, Jesse.

Uh-huh.

All right, we're going to learn that for the next show.

The point is, this cat must remain wrapped.

And honestly, I liked your idea, Kathy, which is you wrap it again.

You're good at this, right?

Yes.

This is the first time I've seen you smile all night.

You want to wrap this thing up again.

One more time around the wrapping table for this wrapped cat.

And then that will be it.

Then that cat can be wherever you want it, but you just bought yourself another few years.

And the fact of the matter is, when this thing, when it finally comes, both layers of wrapping come undone, it's going to be disappointing.

Keep it wrapped.

I think more than two layers, though, overkill.

Okay.

One more turn through the wrapping paper.

That's a phrase, right?

Yes, definitely.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules.

That is all.

Thank you, Kathy and Carol, for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you so much.

Lexington, believe it or not, we've got more justice on the way.

Let's bring out our next set of litigants.

Please welcome to the stage Amanda and Adam.

Our case, working pro-boo-no.

Amanda brings the case against her husband, Adam.

Adam, wants to take Amanda to a local haunted house.

He says, it'll be fun.

She says, absolutely not.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

There's a house on my block that's abandoned and cold.

Folks moved out of it a long time ago.

And they took all their things.

They never came back.

It looks like it's haunted with the windows all cracked.

Everyone calls it the house where nobody lives.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Amanda Adam, please raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he is haunted?

I do.

I do.

I absolutely am haunted.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

We just delivered our youngest child to college, and I am completely haunted.

Thank you very much.

Just wander around my house like a ghost, going, I remember when there was life here.

Shaking the chains that used to bind you to something.

That's right.

Yeah, then I go bother my old business partner.

That's why I'm showing up in your bedroom.

Anyway, where was I?

I'm on stage in Lexington.

I forgot.

I apologize.

I I apologize.

I apologize.

Amanda and Adam, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can you guess the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom?

Amanda, why don't you guess first?

I cannot.

Ooh, Adam's got a big grin on his face.

I think he knows it.

Guess a song.

What's your favorite song?

Oh, Opposites to Tract by Paula Abdul.

MC Sketch.

Perfect.

Thank you.

Great guess.

I love it.

Hang on.

Let me write it down.

There's my pen.

Okay.

Go ahead.

Adam, what's your guess?

His guess is Be Somebody or Be Somebody's Fool by Mr.

T.

I'll put that in as your guess.

I was thinking House of the Rising Sun, but I'm not sure.

The House of the Rising Sun with its famous its famous chorus, The House Where Nobody Lives.

Right.

There is a house.

There is a house.

And it goes by two names.

Right.

House of the Rising Sun and the House Where Nobody Lives.

In the songwriting workshop, that would be called a hat on a hat.

Too many, too many things.

All guesses are wrong.

Shall I sing it the right way?

No.

There's a house on the house.

It's a boundary.

He's back.

He's back.

Make him stop.

The House Where Nobody Lived by Tom Waits.

I don't even like it.

From the album Mule Variations.

I don't even like real Tom Waits.

How dare you?

Oh, Amanda.

Amanda and Adam, who comes to seek justice before me in this fake court of law?

I do.

And what is the nature of your complaint, Amanda?

Every Halloween since we have been together, we dispute if I have to go to a haunted house with him or not.

A haunted house with him tomorrow night?

Did you say?

No, or not.

Or not?

Or not.

Sorry.

Adam, is the haunted house that you want to go to open tomorrow night?

Because that may affect my...

It is, as a matter of fact.

It is, as a matter of fact.

All right, well, let's just put down tomorrow night.

Question mark in the calendar: Haunted house.

What is this haunted house that you're interested in?

The one that I have in mind is called the Dent School House.

It's in Cincinnati.

It's in Cincinnati.

Many spirits are frightened by the name of the Dent School house.

They gave some very weak woos.

They must be old spirits indeed.

1870s, I'm going to say.

What is the Dent School House in Cincinnati?

So

I believe it's a late 1800s schoolhouse, and the lore of it is that some children were going missing at that time, and the town couldn't figure out exactly what was happening, if they were runaways or whatever the case may be.

And as it turns out, it was the custodian of the school.

Oh,

one Frederick Krueger, I believe.

Yeah.

Was his name?

You know, that I'm not sure on.

I I think it was Charlie, maybe?

Uh-huh.

Okay.

Could be wrong.

Charlie Krueger, his cousin.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And

but this is an entertainment purposes haunted house at this point.

I mean, there is a, is this legend genuine or is this made up for the...

The origin story is real.

Okay.

From what I've read.

But one experiences it now by going to it and what happens inside the house.

Or are we not allowed to know?

We've not been able to go.

You've never been allowed to go.

Have you been to haunted houses together before?

We've been to a haunted trail a couple years ago.

With our children.

A haunted trail?

Haunted by the ghost of Davy Crockett?

Yes.

Yeah.

Huh.

What was on the haunted trail, Amanda?

It was a trail through a little park in a wooded area, and there was like volunteer actors, but they were all dressed.

I'll give you a little secret.

All actors are volunteer actors.

We all agreed to this.

That's true.

We didn't have to do this.

And there would be like little vignettes along the way of different scenes.

Scary stuff.

Scary stuff.

Like what kind of scary thing would happen?

I remember clowns most distinctively.

They like to get in my face.

I did not appreciate it.

Like,

they jump out of me.

I had a child attached to my side.

Right.

Like,

strange.

And so they, instead of like lunging at us, it was like a slow, very intimidating stare down.

And it scared you.

And it scared you.

I did not appreciate that any more than a surprise attack.

Right.

You didn't enjoy it.

Adam, you had a great time, though, watching your wife squirm.

Oh, it was great.

What is it about this house that you think that Amanda would actually enjoy?

So

there is an option where there are lights on and no actors.

I thought that that's what I'm doing.

In other words, that's

right.

So you're just left with the lore and not the folks attacking you, no jump scares, that sort of thing.

Right.

And I thought that that might be a good enough middle ground.

And it's even supposed to be kid-friendly and our kids are wanting to start going to haunted houses and that sort of thing.

Oh.

I thought that this could be a good idea.

She's using the kids against her.

Yeah, yes.

I see.

Adam, is there a history of Amanda asking you to do things that you don't like to do?

Yes, every year, as a matter of fact.

Every year, what is it that you do that you don't want to do that Amanda wants to do?

So I'm not real good with crowds.

I don't like to be in them.

They make me uneasy.

Thank you.

So

thank you so much.

With that being said,

bring it in.

I get dragged along to the yearly Cincinnati fireworks celebration.

Oh.

And that brings about 500,000 or so people, but I do it.

And you get into a crowd

because Amanda wants it.

And this you're not enjoying.

This I am.

This I'm not.

The records show

that Adam pointed at Jesse Thorne essentially merging mustaches with Adam, whereas I'm just standing beside him with my arm on his shoulder like a pal.

This is true.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a a while maybe you never listened and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years i know where this has ended up but no no you would be wrong we're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing yeah you don't even really know how crypto works The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news, we still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Well, we have some exciting news, Judge Hodgman.

We have added a whole new dimension to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That's right, Jesse.

We are a little bit behind the time, but now we are right on time.

Judge John Hodgman is live on TikTok and on YouTube.

On TikTok, you're going to see little Swift justice segments where

I hear a little Swift case and I adjudicate it real quick because that's the TikTok way.

It's a little bit of a QuickTalk.

But the YouTube, we've got whole episodes up there on video now.

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Get over to TikTok at Judge John Hodgman pod.

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And we're so excited to be there.

So check us out on YouTube and TikTok.

That's TikTok,

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And our thanks to our new video editor, Daniel Spear, to Valerie here at Max Fun, who helped us set up this equipment.

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But in the meantime, just enjoy them.

It's fun.

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Yeah, don't just enjoy them, Jesse.

Like them.

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We finally got it right.

Let's get back to the case.

How would you feel?

You're not excited excited by the idea of people sneaking up on you?

Like you would not enjoy an actor dressed up as a werewolf sneaking up on you on stage, for example.

That sounds awful.

Sorry, Travis.

She's not into it.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

But I...

She doesn't want it.

Sorry.

Sorry, Trav.

Don't, I mean, Noah, don't go away.

Come on, let's get him back to the stage.

Witness Travis McElroy.

Travis McElroy, back to the stage.

Hi, everybody.

If you please.

Hi, it's me, Travis McElroy.

Yeah, let's get Travis set up with a microphone and

even a stool if he can stand.

A stool and everything.

Yes, right, exactly.

Hi, everybody.

Travis McElroy, of course, from my brother and my brother and me, Schmanner's, The Adventure Zone.

Travis, thank you so much for being here.

You are also from Cincinnati.

Correct.

You traveled down here to be with us today.

I'm sure you all have a warm place in your heart for Cincinnati.

I actually don't know.

Is there a rivalry?

Cool.

I love that.

Well, there is tonight.

Oh, man.

What do you know about haunted houses in Cincinnati?

Do you know the Dent School House?

I do.

I know of it.

Yeah.

That is one of the terrorist haunted houses in America.

I have not worked of.

Oh, my God.

Too terrifying even for you.

Yeah.

No.

You guys know too many feeder kids who work there.

Trust me.

But You have worked a haunted house.

Many.

Many haunted houses professionally.

If there is one thing that binds the McElroy family together, it is volunteer acting.

Yeah, that's true.

I worked several haunted houses in college.

I worked at a company in Los Angeles that set up haunted houses in rich people's garages during the Halloween season where I was struck in the face by a seven-year-old girl.

And I was 31 at the time and I said, excuse me, young lady.

Did she crawl out of the television?

No, she was dressed as a ballerine at the time.

And I was sitting in a fake...

So she was just in character, though?

Yes.

I was sitting in a fake electric chair.

As a scarecrow, it wasn't real.

And I was sitting there completely still and I went,

and she looked at me,

smacked me.

So it wasn't even, there was a definite decision of I'm going to smack this person.

Travis, is it possible that you, dressed as a scarecrow, sitting in a fake electric chair, were smacked for mixing metaphors?

Perhaps.

What part of it was set up in a person's garage where you like there was deep backstory for every character?

And I mean, also, to be fair, like,

I know that we right now only have capital punishment in this country, in some places, for murder.

You wanted to kill that little girl, Jesse.

I would also...

I would be willing to consider capital punishment for living scarecrows.

They would mostly just catch on fire.

Yeah, that's true.

Horrible.

It's the only way to deal with them.

Anyway.

I also once fell asleep in a coffin during a haunted house.

Sorry, go on.

They're surprisingly comfortable.

Have you had an opportunity?

Have you had an opportunity to hear?

Wait, hold on.

Draculus can take any nap.

Pass without comment.

Have you had the opportunity to hear the testimony offered by Adam and Amanda?

I have.

Do you have any opinions so far or questions you would like to ask?

I did miss the part explicitly where your problem was going through a lights-on, no actors, haunted house.

What's your problem there?

Yeah, that seems like a pretty good compromise, Amanda.

I don't think it'll satisfy the kids.

You don't think it will satisfy the kids?

No.

I think that would be underwhelming for them.

I think I would be fine with that.

Is the twist of the story that there are no kids?

Okay, so here's what I want to drill down.

Here's, if I may.

Yes.

As an expert witness.

Please.

What is it?

That it certainly is the role of the expert witness to interrogate.

Yeah.

Permission to treat the witness is awesome.

Permission granted.

Okay.

Please pace back and forth while you're asking.

Travis is but a simple country witness.

No, I'm just a simple country podcaster.

But I am curious.

No,

I'm wondering, what is your, if you were to follow your worry and fear to a logical conclusion, what are you worried is going to happen, right, That makes it so like, I don't want to do that.

Because what if blank?

I don't know.

That's a worry of what's going to happen.

It's where my imagination takes me when I see people in those situations.

That my imaginations are pretty vivid.

I can pre-imagine these ideas and then you give them to me, and my imagine just sticks to them.

Well, can I tell you?

What's happening in that situation is they're thinking, I'm going to have enough money to buy Pokemon cards later.

And they're very excited about that.

That's fair.

Finally get that Funko pop.

Oh, yeah.

I can't wait to go home and drink a lot of mountain dew before going to bed.

You don't think that the lights on will satisfy the kids?

That seems like an excuse.

Because honestly, who cares what the kids want?

Who cares if the kids are satisfied?

They're just going to grow up and leave you and go to college.

They're their

whole life.

You think you spend your whole life thinking thinking about what they want?

They never for once think about what you want.

And then they're whole human beings in their own right.

And they just go away, and you realize that's the way it was supposed to be the whole time.

I should have taken them to that lights-on haunted house.

Who cares what they want?

I'm so glad that mine and Jesse's kids are still young enough.

They'll never grow old.

This is starting to sound like a very scary story indeed.

Here's what I will say, having worked in many haunted houses.

Yes.

There is a lot of, especially Dent.

Dent is one that happens every year.

Yes.

It's worked by a lot of theater people, as I said.

There's a lot of care and thought that goes into the design.

And you know they're going to follow the rules as far as like touching.

Right.

Some of these fly-by-night

haunted houses, you think, oh, they're not allowed to touch me, but they don't care.

Right?

Dent is a repetitive.

It happens every year.

Travis.

You know they're strict about it.

Travis, I was a theater kid.

All we did was touch.

Just touch, touch, touch, touch, touch.

That's why we became theater kids, so we could touch.

Well, each other, but you didn't get off the stage during cats and pet the audience.

As much as

an actor, you kept your cat wrapped up on cats.

True.

Oh, you're still here.

That's right.

Do you have anything to say about Adam's feeling of discomfort going to the fireworks and feeling forced to do that?

And therefore his revenge as a vengeful ghost should be to make you walk through this haunted house?

Does that carry any water with you?

I have offered to let him stay home.

You have offered to let him stay home.

Sir, how do you respond to that?

Yes, she has offered to let me stay home, but it's a family event where I feel like there's an obligation to go.

So

even though the offer's there,

it's implied that I should still go.

Also, it wouldn't satisfy the kids.

Also, that's.

And neither of you want to be sent into the cornfield by your demonic children.

That's right.

May I ask a question, Judge?

You may.

I'm going to let let me grill the other one.

I don't think I can stop you anyway.

Let me ask you this question, sir.

You don't invite Travis on your show to tell him not to talk.

Yeah, this is.

Could it possibly be that you would like your wife to go with you to the haunted house because you enjoy haunted houses?

And so you think if I enjoy them, she will too if she just gives it a chance.

Yeah, it's I've.

But could it also be possible that she has drawn a boundary saying I would not enjoy it, and I support that you enjoy it, and that's beautiful.

Do I have to answer only yes or no?

You can yes, no, or plead the fifth.

Yeah, you say whatever you want, then I plead the fifth.

Okay.

Does the prosecution rest for now?

Well,

I don't know.

The prosecution naps.

You're the most restless prosecution I've ever met.

I think I'm prosecuting and defending.

I'm not sure where I'm at.

No, I understand.

You're getting to the truth of it, which I think is this.

You would like your wife, Amanda, to enjoy haunted houses.

She's never going to enjoy it true don't you agree amanda you will never enjoy it ever it's impossible you are cursed by a monkey's paw to never enjoy a haunted house absolutely you're not even willing to give the walkthrough no actor i mean there's going to be no clowns right it's just what is the idea of walking through the haunted house that has a legend attached to it scarier than

weirdos attacking you without touching?

I guess not.

I guess it would be fine.

Is there an actor you really like?

Because maybe you could do lights on one actor.

And it's like Prato Pascal is there and he's like, hi.

Come on in.

This is my house.

Let me show you around.

This is MTV's haunted cribs.

This is where the literal magic happens.

I feel like it's going to be a...

Like, I'll go to this and they're going to get older.

And then they're going to be like, well, now we're going to do this.

And there's going to be no, like, when do I get to just back out?

It's a slippery slope.

Yes, thank you.

That's the words.

Okay.

Travis, have you ever seen someone really upset at one of these haunted houses?

Yes, Jesse, but I've seen people really upset at a lot of things.

I've seen people really upset at comic book conventions.

So

I've seen people really upset at arcades.

And your ideal ruling, Amanda, you say you'd like me to rule that you never have to go to a haunted house ever, ever, ever, forever.

Adam, yours is interesting.

To find a haunted house for her to go to with you that might be family friendly and not super gory.

Gore has not entered the conversation until now.

Gore enters the chat.

Is the Dent School haunted house gory?

I don't know.

May I offer a suggestion?

Kings Island, also located in Cincinnati, does like horror nights, but it's still like a family amusement park with lights and stuff and rides and stuff.

So I did read about that, and they do have a disclaimer that says 13 and under.

It's not recommended.

It's not.

Damn you.

Sublime.

Amanda suggests that your demonic ghost kids would not be satisfied with lights on and then they would curse you to live forever in a painting or something.

Do you think that you might not be satisfied with lights on?

At this point, I just want to see it at this point.

I think she is right.

We do have our...

Our one kid is pretty into Halloween and it might be underwhelming for him, but I think this is a good test of the waters.

How old are do you have kids or one kid?

Two.

Two.

And what are their ages, if I may ask?

Nine and seven.

And does this house have a rating for age appropriateness that you're aware of?

For that particular event, I believe that one is kid-friendly.

The lights on?

Yes.

Okay.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to retire to my haunted chambers.

Can't think of anything better.

Sorry.

Sorry, Lexington.

I'm going to retire to my chambers.

I'll be back home with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hoshman exits the courtroom.

Amanda, how are you feeling about your chances here?

Not great.

Why is that?

I think that lights-on option is really going to get me in trouble.

What do you think, Adam?

How are you feeling?

I think it's 50-50.

I think there is the

inducing somebody to come out of their comfort zone aspect of things that I think that that could be a factor.

But

I also think that sometimes that's encouraged as well.

So we'll just have to wait and see.

Do you think it's possible that lights on no actors just means only real ghosts?

It could very well mean that.

We'll have to find out.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

I don't believe in ghosts, and I am coming to you, Adam, to say

you cannot make your wife love a haunted house.

You cannot trick her into liking a thing that makes her scared, because the most scared I have ever been was in Universal Studios used to do a really scary one.

What was it called?

Halloween Horror Nights.

Though I do not believe in any ghost spirits, haunts, or haints,

I was more scared than I ever have been in my life walking through that controlled environment where I knew that it would be very illegal for any of those those people to touch me with their chainsaws and manacles and whatever it was, and yet I could not handle it at all.

It really scared me.

And then I went on a haunted hayride in Los Angeles.

They do it up right there in Halloween time in Los Angeles.

They really scare John Hodgman a lot.

Even then, I know it's all make-believe, but it's very, very scary.

Someone got up onto the hayride and had a chainsaw.

It was fake, but it scared me a lot.

Amanda, I was scared.

I'm sorry that I loomed near you.

It's scary.

Scary stuff.

Some people, it just makes their skin curl,

curdle, whatever it is.

You know what I mean?

Scary.

She's not going to do it.

She's not going to enjoy this, I don't think, right?

And I understand you tried to play every card you had in your haunted deck of cards.

She makes me go to the fireworks, boo-hoo.

My children are going to be disappointed.

They have a father who will take them to the haunted house.

Take them to the haunted house.

Leave her behind.

You can stay home on the fireworks.

Your children won't think less of you.

They're not going to curse you to live inside a jar or something for the rest of your life.

If it's really uncomfortable, you should just say, I don't know, I don't feel like it because of the crowds.

Maybe you'll enjoy being crowded in by evil clowns and mummies and stuff and this weird thing that you're going to go to.

I don't think you should go to lights on.

I think you go to lights off.

I think you should go to one where you tell them, turn all the lights off and blindfold me and I'll walk through by myself.

I think you got to go through it alone.

I think you got to go through it alone.

Lights on once, lights out once, so you can figure out whether your kids not only are satisfied but can handle it.

And then I think you can decide whether or not you bring your kids and you can make your case to your wife.

Again, it really wasn't that bad.

Here's what you're going to do.

When you go through the lights out, one, Amanda, don't listen to this because it's going to be fun for you.

When you go through the lights out, one, say, here's what I'm going to do, honey.

I'm going to FaceTime you the entire time.

And then you like walk her through it.

And you're like, see, it's nothing.

It's nothing at all.

And then you just go into a corner and then you just just collapse.

That's perfect.

Yeah.

And then just have someone else pick up the camera and point to you, and you're just standing in the corner, Blair Witch style.

And then the camera goes black.

Okay?

That'll be a great Halloween.

It's perfect.

Otherwise, Amanda gets to stay at home.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Amanda Adam, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

And our thanks to our pal Travis McElroy.

That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

Thanks to Reddit users Will Cox Chatham and Drucifer27 for naming the cases in this episode.

And our very special thanks to our friend Travis McElroy for participating in this episode.

He made the drive from Cincinnati.

We could not have been more grateful to see our pal Travis backstage.

We were tired from our own travel.

Travis is perhaps never tired.

Hard to say.

No, right, right, exactly.

He really injected some life into us.

It was just a human shot of adrenaline to the heart.

It was really great to see him.

He was so, so hilarious on the show.

We were really, really happy to have Trav there.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast, created by John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne.

Our touring producer was the great Laura Valk.

This episode recorded by our pal, Stephen Cologne.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Be sure to follow us on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman and on TikTok at judgejohnhodgman pod and get over to youtube at judgejohnhodgman pod on youtube and smash that like smash that subscribe and and go gently on the notifications but hit them all if you don't mind and spread the word we're really happy to be posting full episodes live up there on youtube and you can check them out at judgejohn hodgman pod at youtube we'll talk to you next time on the judge john hodgman podcast

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