No Pun and Shut Case

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, no pun and shut case.

Mary brings the case against her roommate, Salma.

They're both fans of the card game Punderdome, but Mary says Salma is a cheater.

When they play, Salma doesn't make puns, just jokes.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Okay, let me get this straight.

While we were all playing fair, digging these infernal rocks, you were cheating the system just by buying yourself a golden parsnip using money you inherited from cancer?

Yeah, dummy, that's how generational wealth works.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Mary and Salma, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that when it comes to puns, he's no summertime, fun-time bailiff, Monty Belmonte?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

That's absolutely true.

No one is the pun master like Monty Belmonte, unless it is our mystery guest who snuck in on the obscure cultural reference.

Let's talk about that, as they say on the internet.

Mary Salma, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Well, how about

Salma?

How about you go first?

I'm sorry, I have no clue.

Oh, but you must have a guess.

Wait a minute, wait a minute.

I noticed Mary.

Mary is whispering and trying to pass you a note.

You know, this is a summary.

If Salma were to get it right, Mary, I would find in her favor and this would be over.

That's true.

That's a good point.

You'd never learn the identity of the mystery expert witness.

Don't you want to know, Mary?

I do.

I I desperately do.

All right, then you better not guess correctly.

Go ahead.

What's your guess?

My guess is

Murder on Sex Island by Joe Firestone.

Murder on Sex Island by Joe Firestone.

Interesting guess.

Is that the note you were trying to pass to Salma?

Well,

I had prepared a couple of options.

All right,

give Salma an option then.

Okay.

Mad Max, welcome to Thunderdome.

Mad Max, welcome to Thunderdome.

Okay, all guesses are wrong.

Your best guess was, of course, Murder on Sex Island, the new novel by Joe Firestone.

Go out and get it immediately, everybody.

I'll say the title again, Jesse.

Murder on Sex Island by Joe Firestone, apropos of nothing, wondering why you brought that up.

As far as Mad Max, welcome to Thunderdome.

It's called Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.

Please, please respect my Generation X roots.

We don't need another hero.

We only need what's beyond Thunderdome, quoth Tina Turner.

Two men enter, one man leaves.

Or in your case, two roommates enter, one roommate leaves.

Welcome to my Thunderdome.

Who seeks justice in my post-apocalyptic court?

I do, Your Honor.

That would be Mary.

What is the nature of your dispute?

So, my roommates and I, we love to play the game Punderdome by Joe and Fred Firestone.

And

when I play with Salma, she submits answers that I contend are not, in fact, puns.

And I mean, I have to be honest, granted, sometimes my answers aren't exactly the best puns either.

But I submit that mine are more relevant.

and more punny than Salma's puns.

Closer to pun on the pun spectrum.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Mary, let me interrupt you for a moment.

Okay.

You've listened to this podcast before, right?

Indeed, I have.

You know that I publicly loathe puns and indeed most wordplay.

Well, how did you think?

Why did you think you would find justice here?

Because

this is a space for silliness and honesty.

And Jesse, she got me on the silliness/slash honesty technicality.

Yeah, classic, classic blunder you made by creating a space for silliness and honesty.

Yeah, well, Mary, you're right there.

All right, Selma, you know that I privately actually love wordplay and puns.

Why did you think you could get away with not making puns in Punderdome?

Well,

my argument is that Mary's argument is moot.

Mary is moot.

Her argument is moot

because there is no pun spectrum.

Either you submit a pun or you don't submit a pun.

And while hers, while she claims

hers are more punny, my argument is that there's no such thing.

Okay.

Okay.

Are you making puns or not?

Am I making puns or not?

Okay.

So full disclosure, when I first started playing this game, I didn't really know what a pun was.

Oh, wow.

I'm going to be completely honest.

So I was not submitting puns.

I was submitting jokes, but so was Mary.

Our roommate Benny was the only one who was technically submitting puns.

So Mary tried to get me disqualified, but I argued that she should be disqualified too under those standards.

And Benny, unfortunately, has passed away.

That's why he's not here.

Yes.

We do have an expert witness statement.

Okay, real quick for the benefit of those in the audience who may not know the game.

This is a card game, right, Mary?

Give me a very quick rundown.

Yes.

So this is a card game where there are two stacks of cards.

One is situations and one is like things.

And

you play with a group and one person is designated like the judger, the picker, who picks two of those cards and

submits them to the group.

for each person to write down a pun that combines the two things on the cards, the situation and the thing, the object.

All right.

All right.

I got you.

And how long has this been in your life, Selma Punderdome?

About a year now.

Okay.

About a year now.

So obviously, it would be foolish for me to speak further without consulting our expert witness for reasons that shall become obvious.

Jesse, would you please welcome the expert witness to the court?

Our expert witness is not only a brilliant comic and comedy writer, one of the two hosts of Maximum Fund's very own Doctor Game show, Joe Firestone.

Joe Firestone, welcome to the program.

Hello.

Thank you.

Now, you are the co-host of Dr.

Game Show, a wonderful podcast here on the network that I've been a part of and

I enjoy very much as a listener.

Thank you.

Me too.

You play games.

Thank you.

You play games with people live on telephone, all different kinds of fun, interesting games.

And apart from being the author of Murder on Sex Island, the new novel, The Breakout Hit, Murder on Sex Island by Joe Feierstone.

The Breakout Hit, which we're going to talk about a little bit later in the program, you are also the co-creator of a particular card game involving puns called.

Do you want me to say it?

Yeah.

Okay, Punderdome.

It's called Punderdome.

This is the card.

Yeah.

This is it.

You are the co-creator of this game.

That's true.

Yeah.

I'm the reason these two people are feuding.

Yeah, and you're arguably

the reason that Benny is no longer with us.

Joe, what is the genesis of the game Thunderdome?

Well, it started as a live show in Brooklyn.

And

I did it with my dad.

And then we,

you know, everyone's always screaming, merch, merch, merch.

And, you know, you're always saying, calm down, I can't, I can't.

But then,

you know, then, you know, you get an opportunity to make a card game.

Right.

Yes, you do.

And you take it.

And so

we made this card game.

It's called The American Dream.

That's exactly what I'm getting at.

And basically, it's like, you know, we're trying to,

so then people could play at home the game that, you know, only some people could play in Brooklyn because it's a live show.

Got it.

And it is, and somehow it found its way into Selma and Mary's lives along with Benny.

Yeah.

I always wonder who's actually playing it.

And turns out it's a source of conflict among people that live together.

That's what I found out today.

Joe Firestone, before we proceed to the case, I just realized that I didn't reveal the Obscure Cultural Reference.

Now that you have joined us, Mystery Expert Witness, of course, the other voice in the Obscure Cultural Reference was Joe Firestone replaying

here, live for your ears, the role originated by Joe Firestone of Miriam Sather on the television program Dick Town on Hulu, co-created by me and David Reese.

Thank you for joining us, Joe.

Thank you for having me.

Congrats on contributing to culture in such a profound way.

And to you as well, because not only did we make this cartoon, but

you co-created a game that is now causing conflict in the lives of these two women.

Thanks.

Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So, all right, Mary.

Give me an example of some puns, some responses that you've played in the game of Punderdome that you think are good puns,

and also some examples of the crimes of Salma.

Okay.

So I'm going to go from bad to worse, or from, no, good to worse, good to bad.

Okay.

This one I think is a really good one.

Our teacher, Mr.

Goodbar, gave us a lollipop quiz.

Our teacher, what was, and this is a response to what things?

What were the cards?

I think candy and candy and teaching or candy and testing, maybe.

All right.

All right.

Candy and testing.

Do you remember these particular cards, Joe?

You have them memorized, of course, I presume.

Of course, I definitely memorized.

Yeah, those are the cards for sure.

Those are cards for sure, says Joe Firestone.

So our teacher, Mr.

Goodbar,

what was the rest?

Gave us a lollipop quiz.

A lollipop quiz.

That's right.

I got you.

What do you think about that one, Joe Firestone?

Pun?

I think it's a pun.

Lolly pop, Mr.

Goodbar, that's a teacher in a candy bar.

Lollipop, that's a candy.

Pop quiz, that's a quiz.

You run them both together.

What you got right there is a pun.

Sure.

Punderdome.

All right.

Punderdome.

All right, Mary.

Give me an example of something that Salma offered instead.

Do you have an example of one of the things that made you so mad?

Yes, this one made me mad, actually.

It made me laugh, but I was mad.

This one is objection.

Overruled.

Thank you, Your Honor.

Knock, knock,

who is there?

D's nuts.

What would the bit, Selma?

So sorry, I just want to make sure I heard that correctly.

So what I heard was knock, knock,

who's there, D's nuts.

That is correct.

Joe, did you catch that one?

It was knock, knock,

who's there?

Oh, I.

D's nuts.

Oh, what was the topic for this one?

This one.

I remember this one.

This one was nuts and berries and cheating.

Well, it was on topic insofar as that's not how you play the game.

Salma, explain that answer.

Explain that response.

Do you remember what it was?

It's knock, knock.

Jesse, I can't remember now.

What was it, Jesse?

It went knock, knock.

Yeah.

The response to that was, who's there?

Yeah.

Then in return,

the response, these nuts.

D's nuts.

And the prompt that was responsed to was what, nuts and cheating?

Is that right?

Nuts and berries.

Nuts and berries.

Plus, cheating.

Okay.

All right.

Salma, we've bought you enough time to craft craft a response.

Look, Your Honor, I don't claim to be good at this game.

I think it's definitely a joke.

It's not a pun.

But I think my argument is that Mary was also not submitting puns.

So we either play by the rules or we make new rules.

How was Mary not playing by the rules?

So I have an example of something she submitted.

Here we go.

Can I hear what the prompt is first?

Do you remember?

It was the same one.

It was nuts and berries and cheating.

Nuts and berries and cheating.

Okay, this is a one-to-one comparison.

This is an apples-to-apples comparison.

Sorry, Joe Fire's going to mention another card game.

So it's the grizzly bear cheated on his hibernation diet of nuts and berries by raiding the dumpster.

Okay, so you did just write a sentence.

I told a story

that found

a meeting point, an intersection

of two random, disparate thoughts.

I crafted an entire world and logic.

Yeah, he did.

With them.

Yeah.

And I think that that

is,

on its face, more relevant and gooder

than knock, knock, who's there, D's na speaker.

May I remind you, Mary, the name of the game is Punderdome, not World Buildinger Dome.

Fair enough.

I think that's a really good idea for a game.

Yeah, you know, George R.R.

Martin would only win World Building, famous for his world building.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Joe Firestone, you heard this world-building argument.

What do you think about this?

Okay, so in this round, I'm just trying to paint a picture.

These people are sitting around a table, a table, right?

You're playing in the living room or in the kitchen?

An ottoman.

You're playing on an ottoman?

Okay, okay.

Around an ottoman.

Whoa, okay.

So I already

tough, no.

Already.

They're all sitting around.

It's daytime or it's night?

Night.

Yeah, definitely night.

Weekend day or a weekend?

Weekends, typically.

It's got to be.

It's got to be weekend.

So this is Saturday night, maybe New Year's Eve, right?

This is...

Oh, this was, yeah, Sunday.

This was Sunday night.

This was after a family dinner.

Okay, so you're both full.

Yes.

And I just, you know, one person suggests, knock, knock, who's there?

And then who was it at the door?

D's nuts.

It was either D's nuts or Doe's nuts.

D's nuts, I think it was.

D'snuts, right.

And then...

So D's nuts answered the door.

No, okay.

Yeah.

No, D'snuts was knocking at the door.

They were knocking.

We don't even know if the door was opened, honestly.

It's hard to know who was at the door.

Maybe, I mean, who was opening the door may be the bear.

But and the other person's suggestion is that a bear kind of goes on a story, kind of like blueberries for sale, almost.

Kind of.

And I guess I'm just wondering if this third roommate, whoever they are.

Yeah, was Benny dead by then or was he still playing?

He was alive.

If Benny, okay, if what, do you remember what Benny submitted?

Yes.

What did Benny submit?

It was really good.

He said, I do not like to play this game with Salma because she does not know how to play.

She does not know how to play or does not know how to play?

Sorry.

Right.

Two nuts there.

These nuts.

Exactly.

Wow.

And so the in the game there's someone making a judgment as to which is the best response so who was the judger in this case is that the term joe firestone judger oh i think it's going to be called doctor whoever's the doctor whoever you got it

what's it it's first prompter okay there you go first

also the host says here got it first prompter But the first prompter makes the judgment.

Yes, according to the rules.

Yes.

Okay.

so who won that round on the day?

Well, Benny, right?

May he rest in peace.

Let's not, let's, let's suppose for the moment, Joe Firestone, that not only is Benny dead, but Benny actually never existed.

Okay, and this game, this round was played entirely and exclusively between Salma and Mary.

Internal sunshine in the spowest mind.

Exactly.

Excuse me, the game cannot be played with less than three players.

Oh, boy.

Okay.

I've got one.

I'll play.

Okay, you're in.

What is it?

What is it?

Nuts and nuts and berries

and cheating?

Cheating.

It's not even worth my time to cheat at this game.

I hate it so much.

I pecant even with it.

That was good.

But I don't hate the game.

I like the game.

I just had to come up with something.

You understand, Jeff Harris.

That That was good.

That was good.

Love the game.

Okay, so obviously I would win that round, but

look,

you are the first prompter in my life, Joe Firestone.

Of those three, which wins and which comes in second?

That's really an uncomfortable position you're putting me in, okay?

I'll just say this.

Okay.

Okay.

I think

that if you just had, listen, if you had everybody operating on all cylinders, which clearly that's just not the case, you know what I mean?

Sunday evening, everyone is so full.

Right.

Okay.

So say, let's just say we had knockout, then another knockout, and then we had these nuts at the door.

Okay.

I would say, these nuts,

you got to go back out that door.

You're not coming in.

Okay?

Whoa.

If we had knockout, we had knockout, and then we had

bear going to eat, right?

That's the summary of your story?

Yeah, yeah, basically, yeah.

Bear going to eat.

I'd say, Bear, you better go out that door, go meet those nuts.

So I would suggest that what you've created is an ecosystem where both of you cannot play this game with anyone else.

You have to play together.

Joe,

when you were hosting the live show,

did you often receive submissions that were not actually puns?

The live show has

kind of a vibe of frenzied mob.

So if they don't deliver puns, the contestants, the mob gets so angry with them.

There's lots of shouting and

screaming and accusations.

It's like a very wild event.

So I wouldn't really have to be the judge on that.

It is a punder dome after all.

After all.

Yeah.

Okay.

So in this case, if an answer is funnier but not punnier, Joe, which should win, funnier but not well.

I mean, the D's nuts is funnier than a bear, comes out of hibernation, whatever it was.

It wasn't funny, Mary, right?

Yes, I agree.

Will you agree?

It wasn't funny, it was more of a sentence.

I sometimes wonder if I should abandon my career in comedy and just go back to being 17 and saying D's nuts a lot

because I really can't think of anything funnier.

It's pretty funny.

It's always a surprise.

It's a little vulgar.

Should funny triumph over punny?

Joe Firestone, do you have an opinion?

So I'm just going to say this.

I have not, to be fully honest, looked at this game in about, I'd say, let's go ahead and say five to six years.

Okay.

I maybe glanced at it when I moved, put them in boxes.

But here's what it says on the box.

Okay, and I'm pretty sure I wrote this copy.

I don't know for sure.

But it says, the most terrible punster

wins.

Whoa.

Joe, that's a lot of ambiguity there.

Because if you presume from the point of view that all puns are are groan-worthy and terrible,

then the one who makes the pun that is the most weird, daddish, and awful is the one who wins.

But if you presume that what you mean is the person who is least capable of making a pun,

then the most terrible punster would be,

well, in this case, it's both of you, Mary and Salma.

But overall, it sounds like Salma.

So who wins?

Interesting.

It's just a little cornstarch to thicken the pot.

I appreciate that.

We are now in a thick gravy of a case, that's for sure.

Salma, you asked that if I were to rule in your favor, that I would prohibit Mary from making you the, quote, butt of jokes.

Explain.

So, as you've seen, I'm not very good at this game.

No, hang on.

You didn't write that thing about the bear.

I did not.

But I think that I tend to be the butt of the joke amongst Mary and Benny, rest his soul.

And

they both make fun of me because of the jokes that I submit.

And they tell me that I don't know what a pun is, and maybe I did not at the time.

But I submit, Your Honor, that neither did Mary.

So that is what I need from you, please.

Mary, do you make Selma the butt of jokes?

I don't think that I make her the butt of jokes.

I honestly think I make fun of Benny way more, but I will admit that's really cruel.

That's really cruel.

What do you dance on his grave?

Wow.

When he was still alive, I would never, I would never besmirch the dead.

Benny is alive, everybody.

Don't worry.

Benny is alive.

A little humor.

Alive and well and living in Paris.

But I do admit that Benny Benny and I have a tendency when we are playing games, this one included, to gang up a little bit on Selma.

I'm not proud of it, but

I find that,

I don't know, sometimes our brains, and I like this, like I like that our brains don't work the same way, but sometimes I'm just like, what?

And I feel that I feel that acutely with this example.

How would you describe, I'm just freestyling a new card game that I'm coming up with.

Describe your friend's brain as though it were some kind of vehicle.

What kind of car, plane, train, or funicular is your brain, Mary?

Oh, gosh.

And what is Salma's brain like?

Hot air balloon.

Who's that?

Me.

Yeah, hot air balloon.

Okay.

And Salma is what, Mary?

Salma is Amtrak.

Whoa.

All right.

I don't know why.

That's the first thing that came to mind.

No, I love that it came to mind.

Because she constantly has to defer to freight trains.

Why hot air balloon?

Yeah, there's lots of going up and down.

It requires a lot of hot air, bluster,

perhaps a bit of creative thinking to get from one place to the other, but also going with the breeze

and

untethered.

Untethered.

And non-linear.

Couldn't have put it better myself, Judge.

All right.

Interesting.

Whereas Amtrak Salma over there got a one-track mind, D'smas.

Many tracks.

Amtrak has many tracks.

Yeah, I'll explain it.

I mean,

I think honestly, when you, the first thing that comes to mind is Amtrak.

You're trying to disparage your friend by calling her an Amtrak train, but I'd point out that Amtrak guessed where it's going more most of the time.

And if you were trying to take a hot air balloon up the Northeast Corridor to Boston, you'd probably never get there.

I agree.

And in fact, I

have an Amtrak guest rewards card.

I use Amtrak all the time.

Wow.

But if I may, you were suggesting, and maybe this is where this came from, this word suggestion, that Salma's non-puns stop the game in its tracks.

Yeah, I got there.

Joe Firestone, I got there.

You did.

Nice.

I got a gasp.

That was really, you got it really fast, like a seller.

Relatively fast.

Nothing like those European gasps.

So Salma says that she feels like she's the butt of jokes, Mary.

How does that make you feel?

Well, that doesn't make me feel good.

Yeah, that's why I asked.

That's why I put it that way.

Time for reflection.

Don't care for that, but okay.

Yeah, no, that doesn't make me feel good.

And

I

have heard this from other people in my life, namely Benny, who also doesn't appreciate it when I make fun of him.

I come from a family where

we express love through making fun of each other.

Oh, no, not one of those families.

So like, that's how you know when you're like in, when you're, when you're here, you're family.

When I'm making fun of you, you're family.

Right.

When you're here and you feel like garbage, you're family.

And I have, I'm a perennial big sister, too.

Like, like, it's, I do it to my, to my brother.

I do it to my cousins.

And to your roommates.

Salma,

is Mary a teaser in other aspects or just in the in the punderdome?

I think

primarily in the punderdome.

I do think Benny sometimes deserves it.

I must say.

Easy to beat up on Benny.

Rest in peace.

Rest in peace, Benny.

Boy, oh boy.

This guy's just getting roasted to death again and again.

Mary, if I were to find in your favor, what would you have me rule?

I would like,

I had initially wrote down that I would like you to rule that all

answers in the game must be relevant wordplay.

So that's that's how I gotta be a pun.

Gotta be a pun.

Right.

And relevant also.

What, to current events, to

the current times today.

Right.

In these unprecedented times.

And I would like it on fake internet record that my puns are

more relevant and more punny than Selma's.

And that's what I wrote down.

But after talking, I also

would like

a ruling that would result in

us

have like

kind of minimizing this chaos that happens when we play of not really knowing

like what counts and what doesn't count.

And also, so, like, yeah, and to keep the proverbial train going, like idea train.

Yeah.

Train of thought.

Oh, there it is.

I got there.

Train of thought rolling.

Sure.

The Salma, the Salma Amtrak Express.

Okay.

Well, obviously, I have my own thoughts on this matter, but unfortunately, the law on this is very clear.

Two roommates enter, one roommate leaves.

You understand what I'm saying, right, Joe?

Yeah.

yeah.

So please take some time to prepare yourselves because when we come back,

we'll settle this the old-fashioned way: trial by Punderdome.

Welcome.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Mary, how do you feel about this shocking revelation?

I feel

pumped.

I feel

a little scared to be put on the spot,

but I feel confident in my abilities.

How are you feeling, Salma?

Feeling okay.

I'm still thinking about being compared to Amtrak, and I don't know how I feel.

Oh, God, I feel bad now.

But I'm excited to hear the judge's ruling.

If Benny were alive today, how do you think he would feel?

Well, he actually wrote a statement.

So I think he would feel

justified hearing from Joe and Judge Hodgman that neither of our answers are, in fact, puns, because he maintains that he feels very strongly that neither of us are making puns in this case.

So I think, yeah, I think he would feel pretty justified and pretty, pretty happy with himself.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

You You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcast.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we just premiered the stream of the grand finale, the end of the road special of our Van Freaks Roadshow tour.

And it was great to see it.

It was great to enjoy it with everybody.

My only disappointment is that if people didn't watch that stream, they'll never have the chance to watch it.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, you are a liar, I say respectfully, a liar, sir.

For indeed, yes, if you missed the stream premiere, you can still watch it.

Go over to vanfreaksroadshow.com, get tickets, and you can watch that stream all the way until December the 3rd.

And you don't want to miss this show.

If you wait for the podcast version, you're going to miss a bunch of stuff that's exclusive to the web stream.

A lot of behind-the-scenes antics, a lot of fun b-roll, a lot of songs and delights and surprises, and frankly,

an incredible visual tableau of stand-up foam core Richard Kynes that you're not going to be able to get just using your ears.

You want to use your eyes, and unfortunately, you can't smell this thing.

So it's just your eyes and ears.

VanfreaksRoadshow.com is where you can go to get your ticket to watch our grand finale.

It is a fully produced extravaganza that you're really going to enjoy

sitting at home with your family.

Have a nice, quiet night in with Jesse, John, Jonathan Colton, our friends from the Antiques Roadshow, Roadshow, and of course, two giant Richard Kynes.

VanFreaksRoadshow.com.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Gather around my Punderdome.

It's not my Punderdome, of course.

It's all of ours Punderdomes, co-created by Joe Firestone, who's here.

And in fact, I am not going to lead this play.

I am also going to play along.

That's right.

I will also enter the Punderdome because, as I have learned, at least three people must play, right, Joe?

Yeah, that's the rule.

That's what it says.

Now, Joe, you have the most tenuous grasp of all of us on the purported rules of this game.

Tenuous meaning thin?

Yes.

Got it.

Wouldn't you agree?

Sure.

But you are the one who has the box there.

Totally do.

And you are also the co-creator, so I'm going to let you be the judge.

of who wins.

And this is going to serve a couple of purposes.

One, simple listener bloodthirst they love it two

we're actually going to get some real-time examples of the kinds of answers that salma gives versus the kind that um the mary gives and three we're going to determine who is the winner not only of this game but of this case and i'm going to just let joe i'm just going to let you judge based on whatever criteria suits you whether it's the best pun the funniest thing the most interesting thing how whatever you feel in the moment and you should obviously feel free to comment but before we go into the punderdome mary and salma you say that Benny has prepared an affidavit?

Indeed.

It is my humble and non-biased opinion that neither Mary nor Salma have a clear or comprehensive understanding of what a pun is.

All right.

So thank you, Benny.

It's easy for you to say from the grave.

Just to make it perfectly clear what a pun is, let's turn to summertime fun time guest bailiff Monty Belmonte with a pun-filled definition of pun.

Thank you for this opportunity, Your Honor.

Merriam-Webster, whose headquarters is a mere five minutes from where I speak to you now, Springfield, Massachusetts, defines pun as the usually humorous use of a word in such a way as to suggest two or more of its meanings or the meaning of another word similar in sound.

Usually humorous.

Hm.

While I appreciate the punctilious punditry punzited by our friends at Merriam-Webster, let me puncture this pungent puntification that, by my computation, is disrenpunable, pungnacious, repunhensible, punicious, punprincipled, and could very well be punishable by this or any punder court of law.

Puns are not usually humorous.

Puns are always humorous.

This case is not unlike the recent case in punt of Kraft Foods, who tried to convince Merriam-Webster to make moist their word of the year by placing an eight-foot jar of mayonnaise on their Springfield lawn, to petition Webster to accept that the only reason people dislike the word moist is because the internet told them they should.

The only reason people dislike puns is because the internet told them they should.

And I say that mentality is two-thirds of a pun.

P-U.

Puns are always humorous.

El punto.

However, so as to remain punctual, I will not punctuate this talking punt any further.

Adieu, adieu.

Punning is such sweet sorrow.

Yours truly, summertime, fun time, guest bailiff, Monty Belponte.

All right, now that we're all clear, I'm going to warm up because I just thought of one.

I'm going to warm it.

I'm going to warm up.

Do you mind if I warm up?

The prompt is seafood and creative writing MFA programs.

You don't have to come up with one.

I'm warming myself up here.

Mary, you're racking your brains.

You don't have to, you don't have to launch the hot air balloon because all I just want to say, I just thought of this one.

I'm just warming this up.

You ready for this, Jesse?

Seafood

and MFA creative writing programs.

And here's my response: Specificity is the soul of narrative.

S-O-L-E, soul.

There you go.

All right.

Do I do I get a point?

Uh, No, but.

Okay, so here's how the game works.

You ready?

Yeah.

So I give you a question, and then whoever answers it first gets a little extra time to write theirs.

So there's a little answer.

There's a rapid fire around.

Okay.

Hit it.

Here we go.

What time should you go to the dentist?

2:30.

2.30.

John, I'll give it to you.

You get extra time.

Okay, so.

The two categories will be.

There we go.

Okay, let's see this.

Okay, I know.

Okay.

Do you need extra time, Joe?

No, I'm good.

I'm ready.

Ready?

Colors

and dating.

Colors and dating.

The time starts now.

I'm going to just stop you arbitrarily when it's time, but John, you'll get more time than when I stop the other two.

It's perfectly clear.

Okay,

that's time for two of you.

John, keep writing for as long as you want.

As long as I want.

Wow, okay.

Okay, and that's time for John.

There we go.

We've done it.

All right.

Who would like to share first?

You can pick someone.

Okay, I'll pick someone.

John, please go first.

I really blew it on this one, even with the extra time.

You blew it?

Yeah, that's my, yeah, that's it.

I went out on our first date, but I really blew it.

That's what I have.

Oh,

Selma.

That's amazing.

Selma, please share the exact wording of your very similar entry.

I blew this dinner date.

And Mary?

Mine is Benjamin Moore is offering a new website, colourmatch.com.

Oh,

that's fun.

Yeah, instead of match.com.

It's colour match.

Colour match dating website.

Benjamin Moore is making painting.

I was working very very hard to create something from Tinder into tincture.

You could blow a dinner date.

Well, Joe Firestone, who takes that round?

I'm passing it over to Jesse.

Jesse's going to decide.

I'm going to go with Benjamin Moore.

Wow.

Wow.

Wow.

I actually didn't expect to win that one.

It was,

they all contained grown-worthy puns.

Only one took the form of a full, clear sentence to which the person speaking had committed.

So that was ultimately the tiebreaker.

Okay.

Also,

I didn't know that I was making a pun until Joe pointed it out.

That it just happened to coincide.

That's how good you are at the game.

I know you're obviously, you know,

Jesse, John.

I know you're obviously going to make a decision that's fair and right.

But I just wanted to make a couple suggestions.

Please.

I think that maybe that you two need to get

more people

to play.

Because I think that when forced with the pressure of other people's judgments, I do think that you'll both tend to improve significantly.

As seen in just now.

The other thing that I would recommend is my other card game, which involves no wordplay at all.

It's called Fruits, and it has not sold very well, but I'd really love

for you all to really

get on that train.

It does involve almost any talking at all, which I think could be good for you all as well.

So,

you know, I just kind of think this is a pretty good time to either promote my own products or instruct you all to just expand your social circle even wider.

And those are my two suggestions, and I'll let you decide what you need to do, John and Jesse.

I think that that's wonderful advice, although dangerous to anyone who might play with Mary and Salma.

If they expand their friend circle, that's all the more people who wander into that black widow's den and die.

So I don't know.

Let's do another, let's do another one and see if Salma can get a point here.

Can you give us another couple of prompts?

Okay, here we go.

We ready?

Yeah.

Exercise

and holidays.

Exercise and holidays.

Really, not built for this, Jesse Thorne.

I got to tell you.

Here's what I would suggest, and obviously, it's not, you know, kind of cheating right now, but what I would suggest you do, right, is you just start listing the holidays, right?

You're like, oh, okay, yeah, I see.

Listing them, you know, and then you're like,

Thanksgiving, or like Absgiving.

Okay, I'll do that one.

Okay, yeah, yeah.

All right, I got mine locked in.

Oh, okay.

okay's giving.

Oh, okay, yeah, exercise, all right, okay, you can get the you can get your heart rate up that way, uh-huh.

Uh-huh, uh-huh, okay, uh,

what are you gonna get for Christmas?

An elliptical meow,

elliptical,

elliptical,

elliptical meow.

I think I'm gonna stay with the

Thanksgiving.

Why not Absgiving?

Okay, time's up.

John, please share your pun.

Here's mine: Canadian Thanksgiving.

Why not Canadian Abs Giving?

See, I put a riff on it there to make it my own.

Yeah, I really didn't make it your own.

I didn't even recognize it.

Yeah, I didn't recognize it.

Yeah, because Canadian Thanksgiving is in October, right?

And they get a lot of exercise up there.

They get outside a lot.

It seems pretty.

Okay, who's next?

Selma?

This isn't great, but

I

really need a spooky Halloween bench.

I really need a spooky Halloween bench.

As in bench press.

Right.

As in a Halloween bench.

The classic thing that holds jack-o'-lanterns.

Exactly.

See, we're on the same page here.

Halloween bench.

I need a spooky.

All right, interesting.

A Halloween bench.

Right.

Yeah, please approach the Halloween bench, Judge John Hyde.

Yeah, we need to say that for Halloween next year, Halloween.

Suppress you haven't been saying that.

Oh, but Selma, I got to really feel for you here because, like, I'm all embarrassed.

I'm flustered.

I'm red in the face because I can't think of a pun.

And I know what a pun is, and you don't.

But I even know.

So I should have an advantage.

like, my brain is racing like the Acela Express from New Haven to Boston.

It's hard.

I feel really embarrassed.

I couldn't come up with even one so far.

Oh, I know.

I need a Christmas Day pass at the gym.

Oh, there you go.

Oh,

terrible.

Go ahead, Mary.

Okay,

Mariah Carey's new hit song is all I want for Christmas is sick games.

All I want for Christmas is sick games.

once again another considered and full complete sentence you two are meant for each other i never met a more compatible pair in my life

this is beautiful

a spooky halloween bench

is there something i'm missing to the spooky halloween bench selma No

well, it's because the Mariah Carey song is called All I Want for Christmas is You.

Right.

And of course,

and the pun is.

The pun here is sick games

in the place of you.

I can't.

How'd you all meet?

Craigslist?

Heaven?

Really?

Yeah, through my

platonic life partner and former roommate, Paul.

Paul knows what's going on.

Paul knew something was

Paul put you together.

That's really good.

Yeah, and Paul's dead too, just like Paul McCarthy.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

He's on our dorm rat, though.

Well, that's two points for Mary.

I think that we, maybe, Joe, do you think we have to call it?

Yeah, we got to call it.

But honestly, these two are.

I really don't know how you're going to do that because I think both of these people really,

really are at the level of each other.

Yeah.

In terms of winning the game, Jesse Thorne, would you agree with me that the game that we just played, whatever it was,

that Mary won the game, right?

You know who I think won?

No.

She's nuts.

What's ironic here is that Mary won the game doing exactly what she accuses Salma of doing, which is responding with non-sequiturs that have nothing to do with wordplay whatsoever.

Mariah Carey's All I Want for Christmas is Sick Gains

is not a pun.

The color match one was arguable.

But of the four examples that you've given so far, the two that you brought to the courtroom and the two that you just generated, even you, Mary, are batting 50-50.

And so I think that you need to go easy on the tees.

You need to make sure that Selma is not feeling the butt of any jokes.

Show your affection through, I don't know, affection is a weird thing.

And do whatever dark magic you must do to revive Benny and bring him back from the land of shadows.

You win this particular game.

But in this case, since you are not a particularly good player either, I think Joe Firestone is correct.

You're evenly matched.

I am very grateful to you both for actually playing the game because I know more than I've ever known anything.

It's embarrassing to be put on the spot.

Oh, it's my own medicine.

I will say this: when the game first came out, a group of ladies, I'd say they're all in their 50s, they left a review on Amazon where they all held the box.

Five of them held the box with one hand, and then with their other hands, they put a thumbs down.

Okay,

this is a tough game, okay?

It's tough, and it does require both embarrassment and commitment.

I would say

if two people are willing to live together and play this and continue to live together, so that says a lot.

Yeah, absolutely.

Minimize embarrassment, though.

Yeah, they're holding hands.

Let the record show that they have shaken hands.

So my final verdict is this: Mary, you won the game that we were just playing.

I hope that you enjoy your victory.

Congratulations.

Thanks for being so game.

Oh,

it was a little wordplay.

But Salma, I have to find in your favor.

Go easy on the tease, Mary Salma.

You win this time.

And Benny, here's to you wherever you are.

Here's a pun based on the prompt judgment and driveways.

This is the sound of a gravel.

Welcome.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Joe, before you go, tell us a little bit about the novel Murder on Sex Island.

Well, it's a self-published sexual murder mystery, and

it's by the way, you can stop there.

It's already hit the bestsellers.

Yep.

And it's, don't look for it in bookstores.

It's not there because it's self-published, so you have to seek it out online.

But you could probably order it online from an independent bookstore if you wanted to, but it will take a long time, but not in a bad way, just in a way that teaches you patience.

And yeah, I guess

it's about a reality show called Sex Island where they have sex with each other and the people who are best at sex win 100k, but then one of them goes missing.

So they got to bring in private detective Luella Van Horn to solve the case.

But it gets really scary.

And is there an audio version of the book?

Yeah, I did this pretty bad.

So I did an audio book version for free.

So there's really no incentive to buy the book at all.

You can listen to it.

Listen to it as a podcast for sure.

So yeah, I guess.

No, let's forget about the audio version then.

No, dude, listen to it.

I'd love for you to listen to it.

It's, you know, it's listen to it, please.

Listen to it and then buy it.

It's called Murder on Sex Island.

Joe Firestone, thank you for joining us.

Thank you for the opportunity, plug.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Mary, how do you feel?

As always, Judge John Hodgman is a truly wise and just judge.

And I

feel super vindicated that I won this round in front of two amazing comedians.

And

of course, of course, I will ease up on the teasing.

There's only love.

Salma, how do you feel?

I feel great.

I suck at this game and I still won the ruling.

So

I've still got the ruling in my favor.

Salma, how many amazing comedians would you say you're in front of right now?

Three.

Thanks.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

We'll have Swift Justice in just a second.

First, our thanks to Banjo Solo over there on the Maximum Fun Reddit for naming this week's episode No Pun and Shut Case.

We talk about the episodes and we ask for those title suggestions on that Reddit, maximumfun.reddit.com.

You can find evidence and photos from the show on our Instagram account at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to follow us there.

Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode was engineered by Will Solwyn at Digital Island Studios in New York City.

Our editor this week is A.J.

McKeon.

Marie Barty Salinas runs our social media.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment.

Night Reader 17 on the MaxFun subreddit says, My spouse and I need a new car.

I want to test drive the one I think I'll like the most.

Then, if I like it, we can buy it.

But he wants to test drive several cars before making a decision.

Classic, what is it, maximizer versus minimizer?

I learned this term from someone I love.

Some people just like to make decisions like this.

Oh, it's that one.

And some people are like, I'm going to take seven years to figure out what the correct decision is by trying everything.

I guess you can tell that, in truth, I'm a maximizer who's learned the value of minimizing.

Might not be minimizing, but you know what I'm saying, right, Jesse?

I follow.

Yeah, you follow.

I think that being decisive is really important.

And I've learned that from, that's been taught to me by someone I love very much,

because maximizing can be a way of just procrastinating on a hard decision forever.

That said, I do believe a Night Reader 17's spouse should have some input into the car that they're presumably buying with their shared funds.

And therefore, it can't just be one test drive of the one car that Night Reader 17 likes the best.

I think you're going to do three.

You're going to do three test drives.

You pick one.

He picks one.

And then pick another one at random.

Let's turn it into a game.

And then you can make a decision.

But definitely limit the number of cars you test drive.

What do you think the three cars should be, Jesse?

I really like my Hyundai Ionic 5.

Okay.

I'm going to say make one a Mazda Bongo.

Japanese market-only adventure van that's sort of like the Delica, but I got to lie down in one of those on the tour.

And then the third one is

going to be like a Civic or something, I bet.

Subaru.

It's probably like a Civic, Civic.

Sarah Subaru or something.

Or Or a Civic hybrid.

Yeah.

Have fun.

Get something that's

not going to destroy the planet if you can.

Hey, we just heard a case between two roommates.

We need more roomies on the show, Jesse Thorne.

Don't you agree?

I like roomies.

Right.

We need more roomie disputes.

If you've got a dispute with your roommate, hey, let us know.

You know your roommate's doing something wrong.

Maybe they take showers that are too long.

Maybe they leave the freezer door open a little bit and the ice melts or whatever.

Maybe they took the room that you think you're entitled to.

Why don't you make an argument for it?

Whatever it is, put send roommate disputes to Judge John Hodgman on your chore wheel and then go to maximumfund.org slash jjho.

And of course, any dispute is welcome at maximumfund.org slash jjho.

Our show runs on your problems, so send them to us.

Really?

This is not a goof.

We really need your battles and disputes and fights and disagreements to make this show great.

So go to maximumfund.org slash jjho Ho and submit them if you got them.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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