Condiment Crimes

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

We're in chambers this week, clearing the docket.

And today, we're all dressed and ready to get into it with condiment crimes.

That's right, people who like the wrong mayonnaise, eat salsa with a spoon, and put grape jelly, and this is 100% real, on pepperoni pizza.

Here to help us dispense condiment justice are some very special guests from the Dough Boys.

It's the burger Boy himself, Nick Weiger, plus Doughboys associate producer, Amelia Marino.

Hi, Amelia and Nick.

Wow.

Thanks for having us.

Hi.

Welcome to the podcast.

And

for those who haven't heard of the podcast, Dough Boys,

you really should go over and listen to it and then, I guess, cancel your subscription to us because it's pretty much the podcast in the world that one should listen to.

I'm glad finally the Dough Boys is getting a plug on Judge.

Finally.

Thank you, Josh.

Finally.

But if you don't listen to the Dough Boys, for those who maybe haven't heard it in our audience, and please don't unsubscribe to us.

There's room for many podcasts.

Good luck to all podcasts.

Exactly.

But, Nick,

how would you explain the Dough Boys podcast?

That's a great question.

I'll answer it.

And then also Amelia, who joined our team in the past couple of years, I want to hear her assessment.

Yes, this would be good.

She's a

key part of the team, but she's not one of the titular Doughboys.

Okay, so the podcast is me and Mike Mitchell, the very talented actor, comedian.

So the podcast is the two of us, and we have known each other for a long time.

We've been doing the podcast for about eight years, and we review a different fast food or sit-down chain restaurant every week with an array of guests.

And

that's basically the format.

The thing is that we go on a lot of tangents, as you might expect.

It's a slow experiment in two friends going every week to a fast food restaurant or a chain restaurant and documenting the destruction of their own bodies and minds.

That's absolutely true.

And friendship.

That's a key part.

All right, let's see if Amelia's answer matches your own.

So, how would you describe it, Amelia?

It's a fun, silly, dumb

podcast

that is supposed to be about food, but ends up being about other things.

I would say very often the Doughboys at its best is about our emotional relationships to food, healthy and unhealthy.

Yeah.

And Nick and Mitch's emotional relationship to each other, healthy and unhealthy.

Very true.

That's true.

Yeah.

We do talk about that a lot.

We talk about eating and

as you both have said and what that does to our brains and bodies.

And yeah, it's, it's, look, it's, it's trying.

I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, you know, we don't need to get into the two of your professional relationship, but I feel like anytime you collaborate on something with someone for a while, there are going to be some fraught times.

And we pref, tend to air that out in the open.

So that's part of what you get from the podcast.

We keep it pressed way down.

Only children here, baby.

Never the conflict shall reveal itself.

It's a mystery even to me because it doesn't feel like there's any.

So let me explain what happened here.

Some time ago, a loyal listener to our podcast and a loyal listener to your podcast, an overlap.

Wow.

Person, person named David.

Hi, David.

Hi, David.

Well, David.

But I'm, you know what?

I hope you heard.

Hi, David.

I'm out of here.

Yeah.

David, I hope you heard the tone in my voice when I said, hello, David.

David wrote to us from Warwick, Rhode Island.

And, Jesse, would you read David's letter, please?

David in Warwick, Rhode Island says, is ketchup sweet?

When I describe the taste of ketchup, the first word I use is sweet.

My partner, Chrissy, says it's not sweet.

I'm looking for a declarative judgment in my favor and damages in the amount of one

parentheses numeral one close parentheses.

Hot dog with all the fixins.

I also will be sending the same question word for word to the Doughboys for their input.

Wow.

Wow.

Did we get that email, Amelia?

Yeah.

Oh, we did get it.

I see it.

Okay.

Let me just say this.

Wow.

Wow, David.

Wow, David.

That's called podcast double dipping.

It's not cool.

Not cool.

So we decided rather than answer you right away, and knowing that the Doughboys probably would never find your letter, we decided to do an end run and bring the case to the Doughboys ourselves.

And while we have you, Nick and Amelia, here, we'll take the opportunity to discuss all kinds of condiment disputes, not just ketchup.

But first.

Nick and Amelia, your thoughts on Dave for Morwick and ketchup.

Is ketchup sweet?

Amelia.

I'm very glad this question came in because I do think ketchup is sweet.

I don't meet many people who agree with that sentiment, but I tend to only use ketchup for one purpose only.

Maybe we could get into that later.

Oh, well, we're going to talk about a lot of uses of ketchup.

Yes.

It's going to get gross.

I do think it is sweet and doesn't belong on some of the things that maybe some other people like it on.

Amelia, when you say that you don't meet a lot of people who agree with you on this, is this something you check in with people about when you meet them?

You know,

every once in a while.

I'm Amelia.

I think ketchup's sweet.

Maybe,

I mean, ketchup is at every event, every barbecue, you know.

It's always showing up.

It's always showing up and comes ketchup again.

Yeah.

Omnipresent.

Yeah.

Usually in a crusty squeeze bottle.

These conversations conversations do come up, and

I usually opt for other condiments like mustard or...

Because in your mind, ketchup is sweet.

Yeah, it might as well be an ice cream flavor.

Wow.

Ketchup-flavored ice cream

has to have been done, right, Nick?

I'm sure that's like a gimmicky flavor some parlor has done at some point.

And I think it could work.

Yeah.

There's certainly ketchup-flavored potato chips.

I like those slaps.

Which you get up in Canada.

And they're also all dressed potato chips, which everyone's going bananas for right now.

Yeah.

Which is all the the different flavors.

But Nick, ketchup, is it sweet or not sweet?

I mean, I'm not talking about the flavor profile.

When you think about ketchup, what comes to your mind?

Sweet?

It's a great question.

I think the issue is this is one of those yes or no questions where it's tough for me to give just like a clear, like binary yes or no.

But I will, I will say if I had to, I would say yes.

I would lean towards Amelia's answer.

My, my

addendum to that would be that I think Heinz ketchup specifically, which is the most popular ketchup, is sweet, but a lot of other ketchup varietals that you'll encounter are not as sweet and are a little bit more tomatoey, a little bit more.

I think if you made me ask me, is ketchup sweet?

I'd probably have to say yes if I had to give an answer, but I don't think all ketchups are sweet.

Jesse Thorne, do you got a feeling on this?

Ketchup is all flavors.

That's its appeal.

It's its own all-dressed.

I would say it is sweet.

Although, you know, I think it's also fair to say that a very similar flavor profile is found in

like grocery store or fast food barbecue sauce.

And that is significantly more sweet.

Great point in how you would describe it.

That's exactly right, Jesse Thorne.

Here's the answer, and here's the truth.

Bavid, technically, you are absolutely right.

Ketchup is sweet.

It's super sweet.

Gram for gram,

Ketchup is sweeter than Coca-Cola.

I did a little research to find out.

That's wild.

Wow.

And, you know, that's why you can use ketchup to make it into a sugary glaze for a meatloaf, for example.

But there's a reason why there's a question mark around this whole issue because ketchup is not supposed to be sweet.

Not entirely.

It's supposed to be sweet and savory.

Indeed, the original ketchup that was first produced under the name ketchup in England in the 18th century was made from mushrooms, mushroom ketchup.

As well, there were also other savory ketchups, including ketchups made from grapes, mussels, walnuts, and oyster ketchup.

And tomato ketchup didn't even get made until the early 19th century.

When food was discovered in England.

Yes,

exactly so.

And even then, the first recipes for ketchup had anchovies in them.

Because it was supposed to be that balance between sweet and savory.

And there are competing theories as to the origin of the term ketchup.

It's either a loan word or take word from various dialects of Chinese, which would describe brined and pickled fish, or Malaysian, different Malaysian words for various sweetened styles of fish sauce and soy sauces.

And how that all translated into the English word ketchup, we really don't know, but they do share a lineage, which is that umami, mushroom, tomato, oyster, mussels, and anchovy.

So it should have a balance.

of sweet and savory.

But because we live in the United States of America,

they have leaned into sweet because people like to eat that right up.

Here's a question.

Do ketchups that are not made by Heinz exist?

Really?

Heinz is a hegemonic ketchup.

Yeah, it's, you know, you'll encounter them.

I feel like everyone is always upset by the house ketchup, though.

Right.

Like, no, people always would prefer Heinz.

So it's, it's, you know.

There's Hunts.

Hunts, yeah.

I don't like Hunts.

We were kind of, we were oftentimes a Hunts family because my dad was so cheap and it was like, you know, cost less money.

So, and it was that just doesn't hit the same.

I was once accused by the great David Cross of being the mascot on the front of a fancy ketchup bottle.

You're called Sir Kensington?

Yeah, I believe that's that's kind of his name.

You kind of have that vibe.

Speaking of ketchup, we went to the internet to ask people for their condiment disputes.

We got several responses involving husbands misusing ketchup.

Uh, I will just read a few of them just for your reactions.

Loriana writes, My husband puts ketchup on macaroni and cheese.

That right or wrong?

Wrong.

Uh, wrong, but I did see, I did see this in a kids in the hall sketch

when I was when I was younger, and and I, that was the first time I, and honestly, the only time I'd ever encountered that.

I wonder if it's a Canadian thing.

What's the weirdest thing you've ever put ketchup on?

Any of you?

I'll give you some prompts.

One of our listeners, Abigail, points out that someone in her life puts ketchup on grilled corn.

Thumbs up, thumbs down.

Right.

No, that's a hard thumbs down.

That's worse to me than the macaroni and cheese.

Yeah, I agree.

I concur.

I think, because I can, I can kind of see, like, I've had, I've done, you know, dipped a grilled cheese and ketchup.

That's the same principle.

Right.

I've, I've tried to use ketchup and mustard at various points as a

salad.

Yeah, like a salad dressing.

It doesn't really work.

Mustard actually is okay, but ketchup does not work.

What inspired that bit of?

They called you mad at the university.

Yeah, you know, sometimes you're in a pinch.

You got the bag of leafy greens that you don't have a dressing in your fridge drawer, so you try to make do.

Do you have a lot of packets?

You get a lot of packets in your drawer.

I've got a bunch of stray packets.

So ketchup doesn't really work.

Mustard, you can kind of, you know, juice into something approximating a Dijon dressing.

I mean, Thousand Island dressing is ketchup-based, or or it's mayonnaise-based and

mayonnaise.

It's substantially ketchup.

Yeah, no, that's a good point.

You know that Nick Weiger, he's the one who invented stray packet dressing.

He invented it.

Just whatever you got in the drawer.

I used to put ketchup on scrambled eggs, and I thought that that was good for a while.

But I was a callow youth.

I would go to the diner after my clarinet lessons at the New England Conservatory of Music and get some afternoon scrambled eggs with ketchup.

And now I hate myself for it.

See, scrambled eggs and ketchup is common.

I see it a lot, but even I think that's too far.

Too much.

Too sweet.

It's too much.

I feel like ketchup is for one thing only, and it's for French fries.

Yeah.

And hamburgers or no?

I wouldn't even say maybe in a pinch.

Maybe in a pinch in a hamburger.

Maybe in a pinch.

A pinch of ketchup on your hamburger.

But yeah, ketchup and french fries is the best.

What about this next one, Jesse?

What does Anna Marguerite say?

Okay, Anna Marguerite writes, My husband puts ketchup on French toast.

Opinions?

Nasty.

That's nasty.

That's criminal.

Anna Marguerite, he's nasty.

Yeah.

But just to deviate from ketchup for a moment, I was surprised when I heard from longtime listener from Nova Scotia, Emma, who wrote in to say, quote, My family does yellow mustard on French toast, and I stand by it.

That's wild.

Does mustard work better than ketchup on French toast?

I mean, I'm an adult, so generally speaking, I will say that mustard works better than ketchup on something.

Right.

Whether it works overall is an open question, I would say, but I would lean towards ketchup just because I feel like you're more likely to see ketchup in a breakfast setting anyway, because, you know, again, some people put it on eggs.

I agree with Jesse.

I think overall, mustard as a substitute is

better than ketchup.

And

I feel like maybe the vinegariness of mustard might work well to balance out the sweetness of a French toast.

Yeah, and the richness of a French toast.

And also

French mustard.

France is famous for mustard.

That's so good.

I'm not necessarily talking about French's mustard, which I like.

That's a real mustard.

Yellow squeeze mustard, but some Dijon mustard.

I would try it.

Let me put it this way.

Emma in Nova Scotia, I'll try it.

Yeah, the french french connection is just so

that's right french toast with a little bit of dijon mustard and some heroin is that what they're after in the french connection yeah just a dusting of gene hackman just a dusting of gene hackman standruff and you got it the french connection we'll call it popeye doyle here is one that is blowing my mind jay mer giggles from instagram writes My husband wants you to know, first of all, love the start of this.

This husband can't even be bothered to type in this comment into Instagram, he's commanding his partner to type it in on his behalf.

Yeah, this is alarmingly common with people who submit questions to the Doughboys, by the way.

That kind of became like a little bit of a podcast meme of people writing on behalf of their husband or partner.

Dudes, partners would be writing in on their behalf, exactly.

Yeah,

my husband wants you to know: not only does he like A1 steak sauce on tortillas,

he would also drink it straight.

Wow.

Ooh, that's tough.

I'm just first, I'm just picturing, is this a snack?

Flour tortillas with A1 on them?

Who says they're flour tortillas?

Could be corn tortillas.

I wouldn't do that with a corn tortilla.

Flour tortilla, I might.

That's just all I can picture.

I mean, A1 is definitely a heavy-duty umami bomb.

And I was surprised when I learned that it does not have anchovies in it.

I always thought that it did, but that's that's Worcestershire sauce.

Interesting.

But A1 has a, has a, a, a, a feces ton of raisins in it.

I have to say, when I listen to the doughboys, I'm often surprised by the kind of depth of people's connections with chain food.

Uh, because I just, it's not something that I have.

It wasn't a big part of my childhood to, you know, go with grandma to McDonald's or something like that.

But I do have those associations with both A1 and Worcestershire sauce.

Yeah.

Because when I lived with my dad, half the time, my parents were divorced when I was very young.

But before my dad married my stepmother, there were a few years when the two of us, just it was just the two of us in an apartment half the time.

And in those days,

my dad's passion for A1 and Worcestershire sauce

were evidenced in almost any element of our cuisine.

And our cuisine was almost exclusively pasta salad and steak once a week.

So he wasn't putting A1 on he wasn't putting A1 on the salad or the pasta.

No, the pasta.

All right.

That would be amazing, though.

I mean, it's worth

it.

I'll tell you, my father-in-law used to feed my wife.

My father-in-law, wonderful, wonderful man, when my mother-in-law was off at graduate school.

And among other things, he told them that refried beans with sliced cucumber in a tortilla was a burrito.

And my wife believed that to be a burrito until she was in high school.

She learned that there were other types of burrito.

And then also sometimes instead of serving the food onto plates, he would just put a bowl in the middle of the table and say that that was eating European style.

Wow.

My father-in-law.

He's the best.

I also, my dad served our steak with A1 steak sauce too.

So I have a very deep nostalgic connection to it.

Nick or Amelia, how do you feel about this condiment?

We, we did, and I wonder if it's a generational thing here,

but I, we also had

like both A1 steak sauce and Worcester in our little, you know,

condiment cupboard.

And yeah, those were always brought out with steak, which was always served well done.

That was another thing of just like a, and I think that was part of why we needed the sauce.

And so it was, you know, not really super edible otherwise.

People have a real connection to A1.

And we had a letter from someone and I made a note to mention it.

And the note I made was nightstand letter.

And now I can't find the letter, but my memory is that someone wrote in saying that his dad slept with a bottle of A1 on his nightstand.

I don't know.

Wow.

I think that people really get into A1.

But Amelia,

A1, Worcestershire sauce?

I am not too familiar with it.

I've had it only a couple of times, only because I don't think people have steak.

only had steak for the first time about a year ago.

Oh, wow.

So,

yeah.

How did that happen?

I just, I think I just looked at it and I was like, I don't know if I've never felt drawn to steak.

I've never felt compelled to eat it.

Sure.

But I think I was like, I think it's about time.

You weren't vegetarian.

You just had never gotten around to it.

I was a vegetarian for about eight years from ages 12 to 20.

And then I'll come back.

Huh?

Yeah.

But you know, Amelia, A1 isn't just for steak.

It's also for tortillas.

But here's what I think.

I think if you love a condiment that much, I understand sleeping next to it every night.

I love Tabasco.

That's my relationship with Tabasco.

Yeah, right.

I don't sleep with it or sleep next to it, but I do carry it around with me.

Yeah, that's fair.

Do you like just the straight-up Tabasco?

i did take a shot of it once just to see yeah uh it it doesn't sit well in the stomach let's just say that no it's super vinegary yeah it is yeah but do you like the do you like the the the straightforward plain tabasco sauce or do you have one one of the other varietals like the chipotle or the jalapeno i like the jalapeno one

but i gotta go the classic got it

I'm a salty boy and I'm a savory boy and I like A1.

I haven't had it for a while, so I'm going to get some and I'm going to to put it on my nightstand with a tortilla.

And I'm going to wake up at three o'clock in the morning as I always do.

And instead of reading Reddit for five hours, I'm going to try out this guy's dad's snack and I'll get back to you.

I'll report to the membership.

Okay, one more ketchup dispute.

LED Light from Instagram.

We're at Judge John Hodgman on Instagram, by the way.

LED Light says, My mom never serves ketchup with hot dogs.

Why not?

It's the main one.

Okay, I'm going to jump in first and just say ketchup absolutely belongs on hot dogs.

There's no problem with ketchup on hot dogs.

It's fine.

It's not

a sin.

Well, I mean...

I prefer not to have ketchup on this is immediately when the previous writer said the steaks were a hot dog with all the fix-ins.

I immediately saw us wading into the what do you put on a hot dog debate.

And the truth is.

Live your life.

Enjoy those dogs.

There's not a right and wrong way to eat a hot dog.

Hot dogs are just a mix of all the things left over in the world.

In tubular form.

With salt added.

It's a vehicle for whatever you please.

We live in Los Angeles.

Do I love to eat a bacon-wrapped hot dog with grilled onions on top?

Yeah, of course.

If I'm at the ball game, do I put some of each condiment on it?

Yeah, sure.

Why not?

They're all there in that fun thing that you turn the crank and it dumps out.

I love that.

If you're in Chicago, do you eat it with your sport peppers and your neon green relish?

Yeah, sure.

Go to town.

That's great.

I've had those.

They're good.

If you want to just put some mustard on it and eat it that way, yeah, that's great.

That's a classic pure experience.

But Amelia, you say no.

I wouldn't say that ketchup's the main one.

Like the

question.

That's my question.

I don't think it's the main one.

In fact, I just looked up the hot dog emoji and

it looks like mustard is on it.

So I think mustard's the main one.

I agree with Jesse.

I think, you know, live your life, put whatever you want, relish, mustard, whatever you want.

But in terms of the main one, I think we might have a debate here because I think it might be mustard.

Amelia, you bring up a very important point.

Because absolutely, mustard is the main one for hot dogs.

But when it comes to all of condiments,

we're going to be talking about a lot of them.

And at the end of this episode, I'm going to ask you to rule as to which is the main one of all.

Wow.

Which is the number one condiment?

Not the number one, the main one.

The primary.

Okay.

Got it.

Got it.

Yeah.

I don't know why you keep trying to use different words.

It's the main one.

The main character of got it.

The protagonist of the main one.

Got it.

The most common one.

It's kind of like at the top of the pyramid.

You have your A one, and then you have your main one.

Got it.

In the spirit of the phrase, the main one.

We'll interpret it later.

You go ahead, though, Nick, with your reaction.

Is that what we're like, I maybe misheard the question because is what we're litigating what is the main hot dog condiment?

Because that's,

we're just asking if ketchup on hot dogs is okay.

So we're starting with the question.

Should ketchup be served with hot dogs?

I think for most people, there are places where only mustard is acceptable and people for whom mustard is acceptable.

But I think it's reasonable to make ketchup available for hot dogs, which is the question here.

I think, absolutely.

I think that's fair.

And LED light is saying, why not put ketchup out with hot dogs?

It's the main one.

I think Amelia has, using emoji research, proven that ketchup is not the main one for hot dogs.

No, but what condiment is the main one in the universe?

This is intense.

Okay, we're going to take a quick break.

We'll be back in just a second, clearing more condiments from the docket with Nick Weiger and Amelia Marino from The Dough Boys.

We'll be back in just a second.

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Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're clearing the docket with condiment experts, Nick Weiger and Amelia Marino of the Doughboys.

You know, they say self-proclaimed expert.

This is an us-proclaimed expert.

Nick and Amelia have claimed no expertise.

And they have no qualifications.

None whatsoever.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Nick invented the stray packet salad dressing.

Come on.

That's true.

Yeah.

Okay, well, let's get back to these condiments that we're clearing.

We're going to flip the script with Dan, who has a condiment complaint regarding his wife.

This is what he says.

My wife dips raw vegetables in yellow mustard as a snack.

What are your opinions?

That's fine.

I like it.

I kind of like it.

Yeah.

It sounds bad to me, but.

A nice thing about yellow mustard relative to a lot of the other staple condiments in your refrigerator is that

its flavor does not come from sugar or fat.

Great point.

And so it is something that adds a lot of pop to your food without,

you know, without bringing it towards a more unhealthy profile.

Did you ever eat just a spoonful of mustard in your life, anybody?

I've done that.

Yeah.

I've done it too.

And what was going on in our lives when that happened?

I've done it too.

And I'm trying to think what was going on.

Growing up, I had one of those really sad fridges where my mom would be like, oh, there's food at home.

And I'd go home, I'd open the fridge, and it's just like a random assortment of condiments, mustard, a couple slices of bread, some cold cuts.

Right.

So sometimes if there were no cold cuts, I would just eat like a spoonful of mustard.

I'd just like try to find whatever I could.

Yeah.

And, you know, sometimes it was just cheese.

So I just dip some cheese and mustard.

Yeah.

I don't think the vegetable mustard thing is weird because those are all parts of a whole anyway.

Like if you're eating a burger or a sandwich, so I think it's fine.

I think I've told the story on the Doughboys before that when I was maybe 11 or 12 or 13.

And one time I said to my mom,

Hey, is it okay if I just eat a bowl of mayonnaise?

And she said, No, it's not okay.

You'll feel sick.

And I was like, oh.

But then I grew up and so I did it.

Did Did you have a full bowl?

No.

I would do a spoonful of mayo.

Did you get sick?

No, I didn't eat a whole bowl of mayonnaise.

I still kind of think I should do it at some point.

But yes, I have definitely gone into the refrigerator at 3 a.m.

when I couldn't find my A1 bottle on my nightstand and I would get just a spoonful of mayonnaise just as a little treat.

Jesse, I have a feeling this next letter will be somewhat difficult for you to read.

Okay, well, we'll find out.

Waldo After Dark writes, I'm not mad, but I don't get it.

My co-worker, holy crap.

I had not read this in advance.

Holy moly.

Yeah, this is what we call dropping a new mommy bomb on your co-host.

Wow.

This is my, what we're about to hear about, Nick, Amelia.

You know, every time somebody comes on and they say, like,

you know,

when I think of my grandfather's love, I think of church's chicken.

Or when I think of home, I think about Philly cheese steaks.

Right.

This food is mine.

I'm a native of San Francisco's Mission District.

This is the home food for me.

The burrito.

Yeah.

I'm not mad, but I don't get it.

My co-worker eats burritos with honey mustard.

Wow.

Wow.

Thoughts.

Do you think that they replace something else with honey mustard?

Or do you think they take a burrito and then add honey mustard to it straight ahead?

I'm envisioning the latter.

Do you think they're bringing it with or getting it at home?

Nick, do you think they're straight packet cowboys?

They could be.

This strikes me as a honey mustard in the work fridge, and

they're getting a burrito for lunch and putting some honey mustard on it.

Do you think they're eating it like a wet burrito?

They're putting it on its side on a plate and then pouring honey mustard on top.

If they are doing that, then that's repulsive.

They should not do that.

But if they're having it for little bites, and especially if we're talking about like a fast food caliber burrito, I think that's okay.

Now, if you're going to like a nice, you know,

like a, hey, like a mission style burrito shop, like a, like a nice taqueria that has some, you know, like a, a really, really high quality burrito, I think that's kind of not doing the food justice.

But

I guess my, my answer is contingent on the quality of the burrito.

I'm envisioning a lower tier burrito.

What if it's one of those freezer burritos that you buy at a membership discount store?

Right.

Yeah.

That's that to me is like, cause that's, that's basically, you know, dystopian cyberpunk food anyway.

Like it's already not really food.

So I think that's, I think if you're, if you're eating the, the, you know, the Robocop meal, then I think you can put whatever content you want on it.

You know, I do a column based on this podcast for the New York Times magazine.

And we had someone write in saying that her mom invited her to a barbecue

at their house and then said the four letters in the text invitation, the four letters, B-Y-O-M, and then an emoji of a burger.

What would you interpret that to mean?

Mustard.

Meat?

Meat.

Meat.

But I thought it was mustard at first, and I was like, it can't be mustard.

I think it's B-Y-O-Meat.

It was mustard.

It was mustard.

Yes.

Wild.

Wild.

The daughter brought her own meat because what else would you imagine that could mean?

Because B-Y-O-M

is not a thing.

If you're going to bring your own mustard, what are you going to bring?

Amelia?

I do like that yellow mustard.

Yeah.

It reminds you of digging around in your refrigerator.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Weiger?

This is an easy answer for me, a beaver brand sweet hot mustard

because it's a great mustard.

It's unique, and I'm envisioning the scenario where a bunch of different mustards are being brought by a bunch of different guests.

And so I feel like your yellow mustard is going to be covered by somebody else.

Yeah.

This is easy for me, too.

I have the same perspective on this as Nick.

All the regular mustard bases are going to be covered.

100%.

I'm bringing German mustard, and it's the kind that comes in a glass barrel with a handle on it.

Oh, yeah, that's adorable.

I love that.

My answer is Coleman's English mustard because I loathe my sinuses and I just want to hurt them so bad every time I eat.

That is some strong mustard.

Okay, here's something from Abigail.

This one existential.

What is Durky's famous sauce other than delicious?

Mustard?

Some kind of mustard aioli?

Durkee's famous famous sauce.

Is anyone familiar with this?

Never heard of this in my life.

Not famous to me.

I have seen it at Court Street Grocers, which is a sandwich shop on Court Street here in Brooklyn and other places.

And they kind of specialize in keeping a stock of unusual regional condiments or old-timey condiments.

But they have durkies there.

And I went down.

and tasted some.

It is a kind of, it's a mix.

It's a tangy mustard mayonnaise.

And by some accounts, Durkee's is the first packaged condiment in the United States,

developed in 1857 by the Derkeys Spice Company in Elmhurst, Queens.

But what are your favorite combo condiments?

Like your sriracha mayos, or your McDonald's, you know, Big Mac sauces, or your Thousand Island dressings, those condiments, those Twilight condiments that exist between worlds?

To me, the clear answer is a burger sauce,

a mayo base,

mustard, ketchup, and sweet pickle relish,

sometimes with a dash of heat as well.

But that's my classic burger sauce to glop on top of a burger, mixing those things all together.

Jesse, you ever have a fry sauce?

One of the Utah-style fry sauce?

No, what's in that?

I think you'd like that because it basically is just like a, you know, it is kind of a tangier tangier thousand island minus the relish.

Uh, so it really is just just, I think, I think you can make it with pretty much ketchup, mayo, and then like some cayenne pepper.

That sounds great to me.

And I would 100%, with all due respect to Amelia, strongly prefer that to straight ketchup for my french fries.

It is good on, it is good on fries.

Let's see.

I, you know, does, boy, does tartar sauce qualify as kind of a compound sauce?

Tartar sauce.

I might, but that might be my answer.

We also, we had cranch uh the the ketchup ranch portmanteau uh that i think is from craft we had that on the podcast and it was shockingly good really

is griffin newman the king of cranch he's the king of cranch now self-proclaimed king of cranch after taste tasting it on our pod uh and so it's that was quite that was quite a power grab he just tasted it and all of a sudden he's the king

That's how it works.

I'm glad Griffin Newman is getting some air on this show.

Finally,

finally, we get to mention the Doughboys and Griffin Newman.

They need the help.

Was there a coronation for the King of Cranch where he was anointed with Cranch dressing and so forth?

It's kind of a palace coup.

He just sort of seized power.

I think that

was a surprisingly good condiment.

My wife, who is a whole human being in her own right,

has a dream, which is that when she decides to retire from teaching high school in New York City,

she is going to move full-time

to Maine and become

not the king of cranch, the empress of tartar sauce.

Wow.

So

someday I may be

the prince consort to the empress of tartar sauce in Maine.

Fingers crossed.

But I like that answer.

That's a good one.

That's a good combo.

Okay, okay, okay.

It's time to stop appreciating condiments.

Time to get back into condiment crimes.

Here's something from Instagram user peas with Anne.

My buddy eats bananas with mayonnaise.

Your opinions?

Bananas

with mayonnaise.

That's going to be a no for me.

Huge fan of both of those things.

I do not think they belong together.

That sounds disgusting.

That's a nan or no-no.

Bananas as a flavor are very divisive, and there are some people who just cannot hack a nana.

I don't eat a lot of fruits.

I don't like fruit particularly.

I like banana fine.

I love mayonnaise.

This doesn't feel good to me, though.

This feels like some textural crime.

It sends shivers down my spine, personally.

If I'm going to give this idea any credit, the only thing I can think of that's that's close, it's not the same, but it but is like if you go to like a pupooseria, they'll sometimes have like plantains and like a crema.

And it's it's kind of

similar textures and flavor profiles, but and and mixing fruit and a dairy, although I guess mayonnaise isn't technically dairy, but with a white sauce.

But banana plus mayo is too many steps.

I think, you know, a lot of people have issue with mayonnaise, and I understand why.

Look what it looks like.

But also, it's a textural issue.

It's too gloppy.

Yeah.

And bananas themselves, they're already a textural challenge.

Do you know what I mean?

So I think you're adding two wrongs make a vomit, I think, in that one.

If it was a banana chip or a plantain chip, that I could see.

Like a dry banana chip?

Dry food.

Interesting.

Yeah, and

interesting.

Huh.

Oh, yeah.

Well, maybe then I might give it a try.

I'll pretty much dip anything to mayonnaise that's crunchy.

If you had to give up mayonnaise or mustard in your life forever, which would you give up?

Mayo.

Yeah.

It's not for you, is it, Amelia?

Yeah, don't care for it.

I know that you love mustard.

You eat it in the middle of the night out of the fridge.

Yes, I do, sleep next to it on my bedside.

Is there any condiment you like better than mustard?

Um, El Yucateco habanero hot sauce.

There we go.

That was a fast answer.

All right,

hot sauce or mustard, which would you ever give up if you had to?

Mustard, I guess,

I'm a hot sauce freak.

There we go.

I'm also something of a heat seeker myself.

Oh,

trademark, trademark phrase.

Okay, we're going to take a quick break.

When we come back, it gets weirder than bananas and mayonnaise.

Wow.

We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Let's learn everything.

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Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're talking condiments.

Our guests are Nick Weiger and Amelia Marino from The Doughboys.

Before we get back into it, I just want to say, we've been talking a lot about mustard, and it's good, right?

We all agree.

We like it.

Yeah, it's a great, great condiment.

Yeah, I'm a savory boy.

Now, the earliest printed recipe for modern tomato ketchup that Wikipedia turned up dated to 1817.

Okay.

It's pretty old.

Mustard, on the other hand, has been pumped out of Dijon, France since the 13th century.

And

yeah, they've been making that mustard

since the 1200s.

And they probably got it from the Romans who were experimenting with mustard condiments in the late 4th century.

So mustard has it in terms of sheer history.

So let's check in on this.

I have to ask:

is mustard the main one?

Is mustard condiment prime?

No,

I'll say it again.

Is mustard the main one?

Like, is mustard supreme?

No, okay, I'll say it one more time is mustard the main one

uh sort of the pope of condiments got it i i

it's it's that's tough

it's such an important condiment it's such a key condiment i guess it like if we're if we're talking about the western world

then i think it has a pretty high you know it it's an important it's an important condiment it's an important one yeah because i think if you're expanding beyond the so-called Western world, you might get involved in, for example, fish sauce or soy sauce.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, like, yeah, those, those are, those are huge.

I, I, boy, I'm not sure.

Um, but here in our westernized, you know, imperial colonist invader culture.

Right.

When we think of the default condiment, the main one,

it doesn't feel like mustard to me, I got to say.

I still think it might be mayo.

Interesting.

I think Mayo is just, it's just more central to like, you know,

just to so many things.

And I think mustard is probably easier to replace and has a little bit less utility.

The absence of mustard on hot dogs is tough.

Right.

I mean, I know there are lots of different approaches to hot dogs.

I've had some, some, some great hot dogs that, uh, you know, like a Seattle-style dog or a Sonoran-style dog that don't have, uh, that don't have mustard.

I'm not eliminating mustard.

I'm not, I'm not giving you the Amelia paradox of would you ever eliminate mustard?

Right.

I'm just saying I don't think it's the main one.

And we haven't really fully talked about mayonnaise, and we haven't even mentioned ranch yet.

So maybe we should get into that and revisit this in a moment.

Here's something from Stephen in Kansas City, Missouri.

By the way, to all you Missouri heads out there,

again, my dad's from Kansas City.

He called it Missouri.

I eat lunch with my work colleagues after we complete our single-file one-mile walk through our library's book stacks.

What is this weird librarian ritual?

Yeah, it sounds like they're wearing eyes wide shut masks.

I eat lunch with my work colleagues after we complete our single-file one-mile walk through our library's book stacks.

That's a normal premise to any question.

Just remove our daily clothes and don our scratchy brown

hair shirts, right?

No, that's just a normal way to start a question.

Go ahead.

Continue, Jesse.

Please proceed, Senator.

My colleague Melinda and I both like ranch, but hate mayonnaise.

Derek thinks this is absurd because ranch is made from mayonnaise.

Who's right?

All right.

Now, we were just starting to talk about ranch and mayonnaise, but I would like to backtrack not an entire mile through the stacks.

But I did have to ask Stephen what the hell he was talking about.

And Stephen said, the walking routine was started by one of our colleagues to encourage us all to be more active since we have desk jobs.

This colleague convinced a few others to join, and they found that two laps around our campus equals one mile.

But when the weather turned bad, they moved into the library where they found that four laps weaving in and out of the stacks equals one mile.

It truly looks ridiculous as we snake in and out of the rows.

I was reluctant to join originally, but eventually added myself to the line and the conversations.

We usually have eight to ten people weaving in and out of the rows every day.

I'm just imagining someone browsing for books, getting pushed over and trampled to death.

You're trying to study, and like you look up eight people walking single file in front of you.

Terrifying.

But is

ranch simply flavored mayonnaise?

Thoughts?

I think that's too reductionist.

I don't,

I think it's far enough removed from mayonnaise.

That's like saying mayonnaise is just fancy eggs.

It's like far enough removed from mayonnaise that it's been transmuted into something else.

I think that

did the person, and I may have it flipped.

Do they hate ranch but like mayonnaise or back or vice versa?

Stephen likes ranch but hates mayonnaise, and so does Melinda.

And for this reason, they have been relegated to the back of the line.

And in their weird, in their weird library society, they're asking for justice.

I think that's fine.

I think that's valid.

I think it's changed enough.

And I think

there's enough different seasonings.

And, you know, I've made ranch from scratch

from scratch, you know, still with store-brand mayonnaise.

But when I've made ranch at home,

I believe there's some sour cream involved or some other dairy product.

So, you know,

it's got enough going on where it's different from mayonnaise.

There's one very important important dairy product traditionally used in ranch dressing, which is buttermilk.

Buttermilk.

Oh, yes, yes, yes, right.

Yes.

Which gives it a certain tang.

I think mayonnaise, while it does contain

in its

traditional homemade form, enough lemon juice to give it a not insignificant

tang,

is nonetheless primarily a fat delivery vehicle.

The role of mayonnaise

is

to lubricate that which it covers.

Some people find that disgusting.

I can see Amelia checking out completely at this point, just

staring in the middle distance, trying not to vomit what you're talking about.

Some people think it's fantastic.

I'm no John Hodgman, but I definitely eat and enjoy mayonnaise.

And in fact, sometimes make my own mayonnaise.

However, Ranch has a greatly expanded flavor profile.

It is a very different

food.

It not only has many

herbaceous elements,

it also has several sources of tang beyond that lemon juice and the mayonnaise, buttermilk centrally, but often vinegars as well.

And I think for that reason, it is a very different food product.

Nick, you know about the history of ranch dressing?

You know, did that it was a fairly recent invention.

I know it's fairly recent, but I I don't know the exact genesis of it.

It was invented by a guy named Stephen Henson in 1949.

He was a plumbing contractor in Alaska, and he made so much money plumbing in Alaska that he retired at the age of 35 and moved down to Santa Barbara County and

bought a ranch called Sweetwater Ranch, and he renamed it Hidden Valley Ranch.

That's the Hidden Valley Ranch?

That's the Hidden Valley Ranch.

And he started mixing up this ranch dressing and jarring it up for people to take home because they just, they liked it so much.

But, Amelia, you don't care for mayonnaise.

How do you feel about ranch?

I'm not the biggest ranch fan either.

In fact, I didn't even know that ranch was comprised of mayo.

Maybe I'm in the minority there, but

this was news to me.

Going back to the question, though, I don't, I think they're so different that it's okay okay to like one and not the other.

Right.

Like, for instance, I would eat, I would dip chicken wings

into

ranch, but I wouldn't do that with mayo.

Proving that they're so different.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's the perfect acid test right there.

Yes,

even I would not dip a chicken wing into mayonnaise.

Right.

I'll say this: we recently visited the United Kingdom, the great city of London.

Yeah.

And I heard multiple britons

mocking ranch

really which they don't really have in the uk yeah and i'm gonna say this they can go suck a lemon because ranch is fantastic and you know what i'm american i ate brown sauce on my miscellaneous british food sandwich that we bought at a convenience store and it was great wow I have no problem with brown sauce.

So they need to get used to the fact that ranch is a truly great condiment.

So, but Amelia, to your point, you believe that Melinda and Melinda's colleague, who like ranch but hate mayonnaise, are fine.

And Derek, who thinks that ranch is just a form of mayonnaise, is wrong, correct?

I think Derek is dead wrong.

All right.

Melinda and Stephen go to the front of the line, and Derek, you go to the back of the line, and you have to crawl for a year as punishment.

Well,

this is on the subject of ranch.

Callan holder says their co-worker has a ranch drawer.

It is what it sounds like, dozens of packets.

Is a ranch drawer a crime?

Those packets, I assume, are shelf-stable.

So I'm going to say not a crime.

I think having any sort of, as long as it's not something that's going to go bad.

It would be amazing if the drawer was refrigerated.

Yeah.

That sounds fine to me.

You can have a drawer of, yeah, that sounds totally bad.

Stray packet Johnny over here is going to love a ranch drawer, of course.

No, there's no crime there.

Let's move along.

Amelia, I'm sorry to hear that you dislike mayonnaise.

I love mayonnaise.

I love mayonnaise like Dorothy loves the scarecrow most of all, which is weird that she says at the end of that movie that she likes one of her friends the best.

Really weird.

Yeah.

In front of them.

In front of the lion and the tin man.

Yeah.

So I'll miss you most of all.

You've never done that before, John.

No, not.

No.

Nick, you're my favorite of everybody that's here.

Wow.

That's so nice.

Big burger brigade.

I mean, mean to everyone else, but lovely to me.

Big Burger Brigade guy right here.

Wow.

I love that.

But I have to, I do have a feeling, and I think, Nick, you were starting to circle around this.

I think for a lot of Americans these days,

ranch is the main one.

Yeah.

So in the style of the Doughboys podcast, shall we all say what we think is the main one on the count of three?

Okay.

Yeah.

One.

Got it.

Two, three.

Ketchup.

Wow.

Ketchup.

Sounds like ketchup has it.

Yeah.

Jesse, what did you say?

I said ketchup.

And also I'm switching to Amelia for her favorite.

Wow.

Hey, I understand.

So rough.

Well, I also said ketchup.

Yeah.

I feel like, Amelia, our relationship is pregnant with possibility, whereas I've already soured on John and Nick.

At least in terms of America,

I see ranch making inroads.

And perhaps like climate change,

very, very quickly, faster than we imagine, the whole landscape of the main one will change and will soon be drowning in ranch.

The cities will drown in ranch.

The global ranch oceans will raise and ranch will be the main one.

But in terms of American history, the age of ketchup, the ubiquity of ketchup

and its sweetness, I think it makes it the main one.

I think it's the main one.

I will defer to the supermajority.

I'm not going to say we should change the answer.

I'm just going to say my case for Mayo is that for me, such a big part of the story.

Hang on,

I'm sorry, a bunch of people with burger boy hats are now trying to storm my office,

saying that the election was rigged.

John, get her spoon ready.

It's time to fight back.

I don't know.

That's very unnerving to me.

They're chanting, hang John Hodgman.

I don't like that.

They're all in single file weaving through.

For me, such a huge part of a condiment is, can you use it on a sandwich?

And there's basically no ketchup-based sandwiches, whereas mayonnaise is on a whole lot of sandwiches.

That was part of my reasoning, but I'm fine with ketchup being the winner.

Yeah, meatloaf sandwich.

Meatloaf sandwich.

Meatloaf sandwich sandwich.

Maybe that does enough.

I feel like if we were playing Family Feud and they asked 100 people, top answers on the board,

name a condiment, the majority of people would say ketchup.

Yeah, I think that's a great case.

Ketchup probably is the number one answer.

It's not for much longer, I don't think.

I really think Ranch is on the rise.

Nick and Amelia, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you.

What a delight.

Thanks for having us.

But before we let you go, I just have to make good on the promise, the implicit promise in the introduction of what Jesse said about this real thing that is true.

It comes from a listener named Danielle.

My grandmother puts grape jelly on pepperoni pizza.

Period.

And once I caught her dipping a candy cane-flavored Christmas cookie into the onion dip.

End quote.

Reactions?

I hate that.

I'll tell you what.

When it comes to Christmas traditions, people came to us with all kinds of weird snacks and appetizers and drink combos.

And I turned my nose up at those people who told me to try eggnog with orange soda in it.

And then I did, and it was delicious.

I'm going to give grandma a chance.

I'm going to have a

candy cane flavored Christmas cookie.

I'm going to put it in the onion dip.

This is like that scene in Mad Men where the grandpa puts a bunch of salt on his vanilla ice cream, where you see it, you're like, wow, that's some old white people's stuff.

That's disgusting.

That's like a, you know, jello salad.

And then you think about it for a minute and you're like,

yeah, no, that sounds pretty good.

Yeah.

I think there's something about the second one,

the grape jelly on pepperoni pizza to me is a lot less gross than the candy cane and the onion dip.

Yeah, I agree.

That sounds awful.

Boy, I do wonder, yeah, if it could be like, maybe, yeah,

has the grandma always done this?

Or is this like, I know that one of the many things that happens as you age is that your taste is less sensitive?

And so maybe just having like a stronger flavor.

She's got to push it harder and harder and harder.

She got to push it harder.

Maybe that's.

I don't know how many Christmases she has left.

She's like, yeah, I'm going to put this cookie in that onion dip.

Let's see what happens.

And on that note, that makes me almost just think like, you know what?

You just got to let things go with grandma.

Like let grandmas be grandmas.

That's fine.

If I were Santa,

I'd give her a lump of coal.

Nick and Amelia from thank you so much for joining us.

The Doughboys, it comes out, what, every week, twice a week, if you're a patron, right?

That's right.

The main feed episodes are out every Thursday.

And yeah, we review a different chain restaurant with a different guest each week.

Both Jesse and John have been on the podcast.

And

it's, hey, you know what?

People like it.

So check it out.

You know, now your co-host, Mike Mitchell, is a diamond medallion on Delta.

And

And I'm not anymore.

I've heard this, yeah.

Maybe he could get me into the Sky Club and we could do another episode from the Delta Sky Club.

But he can make that happen.

Amelia, was there anything you would like to plug?

Do you have any side hustles and projects or whatever?

Not currently at the moment, but if you want to follow me on Instagram, I'm SkidMark4.

If you want to follow me on Letterbox, I'm Skid Mark.

You're saying that there are three Skid Marks already on Instagram?

One, two, and three were taken.

Yeah.

So I went with four.

Four's a hot number, honestly.

Yeah.

Pretty good.

Make sure you follow Amelia over on Instagram at Skidmark4 and on Letterboxd at Skidmark.

Our docket is clear.

That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman.

Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode, edited by A.J.

McKeon.

Marie Bardy Salinas runs our social media.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

We're on Instagram at JudgeJohn Hodgman.

Follow us there for evidence and other photos from the show.

John, are you prepared on Instagram to try grape jelly on pizza?

Yeah, I'll try it.

And I hate jelly.

Wow.

At Judge John Hodgman on Instagram.

Grape jelly on pizza.

Judge John Hodgman.

We're going to make it happen.

Follow us there for evidence and other photos from all of these cases.

Check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to chat about the show, maximumfun.reddit.com.

And of course, we always need your cases.

Hey, after all, the holidays are coming up.

And I still remember the day I first tasted eggnog with Fanta orange soda.

It doesn't have to be Fanta.

You could also be orange crush or knee-high.

Just make sure your eggnog is pretty good.

It's really delicious.

But if you're a grandma dipping a cookie into the onion dip and you've got some other interesting holiday combos you'd like to suggest for us to try, won't you send them into maximumfun.org slash jjho along with your holiday disputes.

I don't care what holiday it is.

There are a lot of them.

They're mostly terrible and they usually cause distress and fights.

And we'd like to hear about them so we can solve them for you.

Get your holiday disputes over to us at maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

And also, by the way, you've really been enjoying in our members only bonus content feed.

I do a little side hustle.

I record a little weird dad podcast about weird dad blogs of the year.

People have been sending me in their dad's blogs and YouTube channels and their sub stacks and so forth.

And it's not always their weird dad.

Sometimes it's their moms or step parents or their uncles or just an esteemed mentor who's doing some eccentric little hobby streaming.

And it's been a lot of fun.

So if you want to hear those and nominate a weird dad blog of the year yourself, get the over to maximumfund.org/slash dad blogs.

And then, of course, just your disputes, right, Jesse?

Maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

No dispute too big or too small.

In fact, I encourage you to sow the seeds of conflict right now with your friends and family.

Then bring the fruit to maximumfund.org slash JJHO, for twill be sweet for us and our podcast.

Twill be sweet, huh?

Twill.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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