S'morder in the Court

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Smorder in the Court.

Catherine brings the case against her husband, Lee.

They like to go camping together.

Catherine recently bought a new camping chair, but Lee says there's no room for this chair in their car.

But Catherine thinks they can make it work.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Yeah, Smooth Sailing and Hall of Fame are my top two nicknames.

Also, Cool Guy and Jolly John, Fun John.

There's a lot of derivatives of John.

Cool John.

Some people took Smooth Sailing and Fun John and made Smooth John.

That's a good one.

It just started catching on with the general public.

Every now and then, hey, Smooth John, or...

Yeah, you're Smooth John, right?

And people aren't quite sure.

And I'm like, yeah.

And they're like, okay, cool.

That's what I thought.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Catherine and Lee, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that when he goes camping, he brings a mid-tier business hotel?

I do.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

I always pack a Hampton inn in suites.

Yeah, or a courtyard by Marriott.

No, thank you.

Sorry, I hope.

I mean, if they were to sponsor sponsor the podcast, I'd change my mind.

But as long as I am neutral, I'm going to tell you what John Darnell told me, which I live by from now on.

Hampton in N Suites, best mattresses in the biz.

Well, bon voy to you, because I'm staying at the courtyard by Marriott.

This is going to be awkward on our tour, which is just about to get underway.

The Van Freaks Road Show, as you know, is

in the road starting October 9th in Lexington, Kentucky, and going on.

If you haven't gotten your tickets yet or submitted your disputes, go to vanfreaksroadshow.com.

That was just a plug since we got there.

Meanwhile, Lee and Catherine, you may be seated.

For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours references, can you name the piece of culture I quoted as I entered the courtroom?

Let's start with Lee.

What's your guess?

I'll give you a hint.

Starts with a John.

Starts with a John.

J-O-N, by the way, if that helps narrow it down.

Should.

J-O-N-John.

J-O-N-John.

You want another hint?

Sure.

All right.

Catherine, do you have a guess first before I give him a hint?

The only thing that popped in my head was like

horse racing names.

Horse racing names.

Okay.

I think the idea of a horse named John is terrific.

Yeah.

Because I love animals that have just plain vanilla human names.

200 on Frank to show.

Go, John.

Go, John.

Judge Hodgman, do you have Bill in the third race?

No, I'm picking Alan.

Okay, fair enough.

I think Alan's got the stuff.

I'm going to to go for the trifecta.

I'm bringing Marty into this.

Okay, well, I'm going to give you both a hint, and I don't know if this is going to break the damn open for you or what.

Here's your hint.

Ready?

Gear!

So there are your two prompts.

That whole long quote I gave about Smooth John, Cool John, Hall of Fame, Smooth Sailing John, and me yelling gear.

I am just stumped.

And now you usually, when I listen to the podcast, can shout out the obscure cultural reference.

I know.

Well, you know, but here you are in studio in Stanford, Connecticut.

You're on the spot.

You shouldn't feel bad that all guesses are wrong, or in this case, no guesses are wrong.

No, you had guesses.

You had John the Horse and John Colton, Jonathan Colton's dad.

Those two valid guesses.

Joel Mann, do you have a guess?

What people call you when you make breakfast sandwiches?

Smooth John, Smooth Sailing John, Hall of Fame, John?

Yeah.

Here at the general store in unnamed coastal town, Maine?

No.

Yeah, I'm not in there cooking those sandwiches that often anymore, so don't come looking, please.

A great loss.

Before I reveal the answer, Joel, while this episode is coming out in October, if you can believe it,

this is our last time recording here in Maine this summer, because exactly so.

When I came into the studio, Jesse Thorne and Lee and Catherine, I was chit-chatting with Joel briefly, just talking about normal stuff, like road work on Route 15, how's it going on Backridge Road, talking about Joel eating scallops out of the shell off an illicit scallop boat on Cape Cod.

Normal stuff.

And then Joel, just as he was dialing into Jennifer, just goes, Yeah, I showed John and Yoko how to get out of a Senate hearing during Watergate once.

Your life has many chapters, Joel.

It does, and it's not done yet.

Yeah, and we don't want to hear about any of them right now because we've got to hear Lee and Catherine's case.

But we'll talk about them when you're on stage with us in Portland, Maine, in November on the Van Freaks Road Show.

So get your tickets, VanFreakroad Show.com.

Okay, no guesses are wrong.

All guesses are wrong.

I was quoting John Glazer.

John Glazer is a comedian, a sketchwriter, an actor, and one of the truly funniest people I know in my life.

He is the creator of the incredible TV shows Delocated and also Neon Joe Werewolf Hunter.

And also, John Glazer loves gear because John Glazer loves camping gear.

He loves gear of all kinds.

And he did this remarkably funny show on True TV called John Glazer Loves Gear.

And he invited me to play the voice of the robot AI in his phone, who was named Geary.

It was a very fun job, a really funny show.

John Glazer is a true delight.

And you might know him as Jeremy Jam from Parks and Recreation.

I know him as half of the Forgetta Buddies.

Half of the Forgeta Buddies.

He's one-third of the slip nuts on Conan O'Brien.

Just one of the great weird comic minds.

And, oh, by the way,

he is one of the stars of Dick Town, a TV show that David Reese and I made that I am not promoting in any way.

I'm just stating a fact that it's out there.

WGA sag after solidarity forever.

So we've talked enough about that, but he loves gear, and one of you loves gear, and the other one is just fine about gear.

Who comes to this court seeking justice between the two of you?

I do, Your Honor.

That would be Catherine.

And state the nature of your dispute.

Well, we like to go camping a few times a year, several times a year, and

we like to bring our...

Sorry.

we like to bring our creature comforts with us yeah but not too many creature comforts the most recent point of contention is we have one really nice camping chair it's a you would might call it a camping love seat made by a company who I don't think we want to buzz market, but it's a great chair for the two of us to sit on in front of the campfire.

However, we have a dog that also loves to sit on the chair with us.

Right.

And so that gets a little uncomfortable.

So on my own power, I bought an additional single chair.

Right.

And when this arrived, my husband Lee said, how are we going to fit that in the car?

Lee, is that the nature of your response?

It doesn't fit?

It doesn't fit safely.

I see.

But the point is not that there isn't room.

The point is that if...

We use that room, it might not result in a good outcome down the road.

Because the chair

sticks out the back window or something, might fly off and decapitate the driver behind you.

Well, we've been doing this for a long time, and I've gotten really good at packing the car, but it's to the point now where if we want to put anything else in it, we're going to have to stack up the space between the top of the heap and the ceiling of the car.

You do not like that prospect.

I can tell by the sheer fury in your Canadian voice

that

that really makes your blood boil because you can't see out the rearview mirror, right?

Is that the issue?

Yes.

Right.

That's one point.

And the other is that these things potentially become missiles if you have to make a hard stop somewhere.

Lee hasn't been this angry since someone cued inappropriately.

At the Loblaws?

Yeah, probably so.

Lee, I happen to know here because it was given this information was provided to me that you are

from Toronto originally.

Yes, actually, well, I was born in Northern Ontario, but yes, I lived in Toronto most of my life.

And Catherine, you are from the Bay Area, which is, I don't know what those words even mean, but you both live in Connecticut now.

That's correct, which is a part of New England, I'm told.

Where are you, though, if I may ask?

We live in Stanford.

Oh, okay.

Got it.

New York North.

Got it.

Understood.

And where do you do your camping?

It depends.

We like to go to the Adirondacks and the Cat Skills.

And this upcoming weekend, we're going to, it's called Taconic State Park.

It's right near the New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts border.

Yeah.

So the question really is, are you going to bring the extra chair to Taconic State Park or no?

Right.

I'm going to decide it.

Unless, Lee, you've already destroyed the chair in a fit of Northern Ontario peak.

No, it's still intact.

Okay.

For now, it's still intact.

So you mentioned that you like to go camping.

You mentioned that you like your creature comforts.

You also mentioned that you have a creature.

Yes.

So now it's time to to pay the evidence dog tax, as they say online.

Let me see a picture of this dog.

This image, of course, will be available on our show page at Magazine.

As well as our Instagram account.

I switched early to the picture.

Sorry.

You know, it's okay.

It's great.

At Judge John Hodgman.

I just want to get a plug for our own Instagram account out.

Little chubbers.

How would you describe this dog, Jesse Thorne?

What kind of dog is this?

This is a small to medium-sized dog with floppy ears and short fur.

It's sort of a classic dog look.

Legs are a little bit stubby.

A little dachshundy, would you say, Lee and Kathy?

A little bit dachshundy, yeah.

And its head is resting on the arm of a camping chair, and it's sort of

perpendicular to what I presume is Lee's lap.

And because its head is resting on this camping chair arm, it has some really great sort of neck and shoulder chubs.

Yeah, a lot of good chubs in this dog.

So Catherine, what is the name of this dog?

His name is Dibney.

Dibney, and Lee, is Dibney a dachshund?

Yes.

He's so-called miniature dachshund that grew to, well, he's an overachiever, let's put it that way.

Seems pretty maxiature for a mini.

An overachiever in the area of kibble.

Is this picture Dibney relaxing in the Kelty love seat?

Yes.

On top of Lee's lap?

Yes.

And

this is evidence not only of a cute dog, but also that Dibney has claimed this love seat for his own love and will not admit another lover to

this love seat, correct?

Yes, it's a tight squeeze if all three of us are on the chair.

That seems pretty adorable, though, to tight squeeze in that Kelty love chair.

Yeah.

Scrolling down here is another picture of Dibney in Dibney's little dog bed in the back of your car.

Yes.

You catching this, Jesse Thorne?

Oh,

he's wearing his own little, he has a little seatbelt, and it involves a little orange safety vest.

Yep, and he's peeking, he's peeking up over his little dog bed.

And finally, there's a photo of your campsite.

Now, this is a pretty developed campsite, I have to say.

I'm a non-camper.

I have slept under cover of a tent twice in the past 30 years.

But looking at your campsite, I mean, it seems like this is not a campsite.

This is like a camp compound.

You have multiple hang stations.

You have, how would you describe the tent that you have over here on the left of this photo?

It doesn't look like a tent so much as like a wind tunnel that they use to test jet turbines.

Yeah, does the outdoor co-op supply like wedding and event tents?

Because this thing is gargantuan.

It's incredible.

It is a six-person tent.

It's a six-person tent.

And there's an addition on it they call a garage, which we use to park the firewood.

And sometimes

we put the seat in there, the chair in there

for the night.

Also, if the rain's coming down, we can just sit in there and it provides some shelter.

It literally looks like your tent has a garage.

I will say that the only way you could fit six people in that tent was that if four of them were children, I think.

If we try to put six adults in there,

I think it would be a tight squeeze.

To be fair, six adults is four too many for any given tent.

Where was this photo taken?

In the woods of Connecticut, or that was taken in the Cat Skills at North South Lake Campground.

I'm also seeing here a picnic table, a barbecue, and three large bags of firewood.

Well, of course, the picnic table is on the campsite, but we've drape a cloth over it and it makes nice.

I was about to say there's also a tablecloth.

But we don't usually use the campfire for cooking.

We have a Coleman stove that Catherine uses.

It's a little more easier to deal with, I think, than trying to cook over a grill.

In other words, when you're camping, it's only the bare essentials.

Yeah.

I mean, I bring my cast iron pans.

I was going to say, this looks like a really comfortable setup where you could hang out for some time.

And you're not sleeping on the ground, are you, Lee and Catherine?

No, no.

No, no, no, no.

What do you got going on in there?

Catherine found this bedding set.

that's got like a big, like a queen-size inflatable mattress.

You know, so one of the things that has to be done when we arrive after the tent is up is, you know, I am sitting in there blowing up this mattress with the pump for 20 minutes and

then putting the bedding on.

And then you'll see in the next picture when we get to it, there's the foam tiles that go down over one end of the tent so that we have like a floor that doesn't hurt when you walk on it.

You have a floor that you put in your tent?

Yes.

So what I have scrolled down and I see this luggage cart full of equipment, which I

take it to the full complement of what you pack into your car.

That's not even all of it.

No.

Oh, so it's more than one luggage cart's worth of?

The love seat's not on the cart in that picture.

Okay.

This is a real luggage cart from a...

Are you staging your camping trips at a courtyard by Marriott?

No, the building where we live has a few of these for the use of the tenants.

Yeah, it's the apartment buildings cart.

I see.

I see.

Yeah, base camp, Jesse, is at the is at the courtyard morning muffin station.

Yeah.

Look, I appreciate how much comfort that you're inserting into the camping experience.

This is a lot more than I would have thought.

Who had the idea to put a comfort floor into the tent between the two of you?

That would be me.

That would be Catherine.

Yes.

In the interest of full disclosure, it isn't just foam tiles.

There are a few blankets that we spread over the foam tiles to keep the dirt from getting in the tent.

Right, of course.

There was also a little folding stool that goes on top of all of that so someone has a place to sit.

Nothing worse on a camping trip than dirt.

Well, in the case of the trees.

Next thing you know, there'll be trees around.

I didn't come out here in the wilderness to get my foam tiles dirty.

I think it's terrific.

It's on the glamping spectrum insofar as you want to be outdoors, but you also want to not be uncomfortable.

and to enjoy yourself.

I think that's fine.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

My question is, who came to this relationship with the idea of camping?

I think I may have been the more avid camper,

but I think Lee also camped when he was younger.

I would go on cycling tours,

supported tours where we basically brought our own tents and set them up every night at the end of the day.

So I did a lot that way.

When I was a kid, you know, my family would go out.

Of course, my dad had one of those pop-up trailers for a few years.

Sure.

So it was,

you know, a little more swanky than a tent, maybe.

But yeah, I've

done a fair amount of tent camping, you know, over the years.

Yeah, but Lee, when you're describing the foam floors and the special stool, et cetera, you kind of just keep pointing at Catherine like she's the one introducing all this comfort into the outdoor experience.

Is that your feeling?

You think it should be a little bit more rustic?

These are not unwelcome improvements.

That's the harshest thing I've ever heard a Canadian say.

I've never heard anything more passive nor more aggressive.

That's the key to the Canadian nuclear football.

I'm sorry, Lee and all of Canada that I'm dealing in these stereotypes.

Is it true that these improvements are not unwelcome, Lee?

You're under oath, fake out.

Yes, I would say so.

It's not like we have an inflatable sofa in there or a television set, you know, but these are things that make the experience more enjoyable, especially if you're going to be there a few nights.

You could probably get a projector, a camping projector, put that on a sheet.

No, Catherine?

I'm

trying to glam this out for you.

Do you have a particular way you like to pack the car?

Oh, absolutely.

Tell me about it.

Okay, so it really doesn't all come together until the cooler's ready to go in because that's the biggest thing.

You would have noticed on that last photo, there's a sort of a big dark gray box, and that has most of the like, you know,

the gear, like the plates, the pans.

I'm sorry, though.

The wash tubs and

that is most of the,

it was a G word.

Oh, the gear.

Gear!

Yes.

And then,

you know, so the cooler goes in first, the gear sort of goes in sideways.

And then that bedding set I talked about, it comes in a bag and you can tie the bag down.

It has straps to sort of ratchet down

to compact it, but it's still pretty bulky.

So it has to fit in sort of behind that.

And then there's a space behind the seats that the boxes don't quite fit into because the seats are angled.

And that's where I tuck like the poles for the tarp.

I fill up that spot with stuff.

Then I end up layering things on top of that.

I'm trying to get it all sort of into tetrasing it in there, you know, roughly level shape.

Yeah.

And still so that it only comes up to about the level of the top of the seat.

Right.

Because as you point out, if there is something heavy in the back, not only does it block your view in the rearview mirror, but should you stop short, it could come flying forward and hit you in the back of the head or go through your windshield.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, and just to be clear, I'm not overlooking other opportunities for using space.

Like the space behind the driver's seat, behind the passenger seat, it's all full of stuff too.

Right.

And the other half of the back seat where Dibney isn't sitting is also stacked with stuff.

What kind of vehicle do you drive?

It's a Honda CR-V.

Yeah, no one's accusing you of getting lazy finding space in that CR-V.

We know you're packing it up.

Lee, would you characterize yourself as a packing dad, which is to say that like me, you spend the five days preceding any trip obsessing over exactly where each package is going to go in your motor vehicle?

Not so much.

I mean, I've been doing it enough now that I can just sort of wing it.

You know, we'll pack up maybe the night before we leave just to get some of the stuff in the car.

But, you know, we've done it so many times now I can just,

it used to take a lot longer.

But you have a system, right?

I mean, this is like filling a dishwasher.

If someone else does it, it's big trouble.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I have a very particular way of doing it these days.

You know, the stuff that I've discovered works in terms of just getting things to fit.

Bailiff Jesse, may I ask you a question?

Of course.

You ever pack a car for a car trip, say to Maine, at the beginning of the summer, right?

And then someone in your family decides to put something else in the car on their own.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

And maybe you're still in the middle of the day.

I love my wife so much, John.

I love my wife so much.

And I can't emphasize that enough.

But I don't think there's anything that makes me break out in hives of irrational rage more than just when even one new bag shows up after

the packing line has been drawn.

Right.

And then just, why is this open top tote bag full of marbles here?

Oh, and yes, and I will need access to that during the drive.

So find somewhere where I can reach my marbles.

I can't emphasize how much I love my wife.

She's really great.

No, and she deserves a tote bag full of marbles.

That's not it.

It's our brains are broken.

Nobody should be separated from their marbs during a long drive.

Yeah, no,

my brain is just broken.

It's just, I can't,

I have to, I have to rearrange everything in my mind and maybe in the car to adapt for new things.

But Lee, I think you're a little bit cooler than me and Jesse in this regard.

You just want to be safe.

Yes.

I see a meh hand signal from Catherine.

Yeah, I definitely saw a meh or a mezza meza hand signal from Catherine.

Please explain.

Well, you know, he's Canadian, so he is hiding his deep-seated rage at anything that might disrupt this perfect packing system that he has in his head.

Catherine, I heard him say that he's pretty much got it under control now.

To me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that signifies that he has a perfect system that will be broken by the slightest change or addition.

Yes, that's correct.

Do you cop to that, Lee?

Yeah,

Every time something new arrives, it's like, oh, it's yeah.

Now I'm going to make this work.

Let the record show Lee is touching his hand to his brows and just picturing this extra complication in the back of his CR-V.

He looks like a stock photograph of someone suffering a migraine headache.

That's right.

Just trying to paint a word picture for the podcast listeners at home.

Pretty much like, I got this chair.

And it was, oh, where is this going to go?

How am I going to make this fit?

We have to get rid of something else.

But if I get a new piece of gear, he often will figure out how to make it work.

He was angry when we got the tarp at first.

He was like, we don't need this tarp.

And now he loves the tarp.

Lee, were you angry at tarpi in the beginning?

I don't remember that so much, but I suppose it's possible.

In the end, it turned out to be not a big deal.

The tarp doesn't take up a lot of space, and we were able to get it in the gearbox.

When you say the gearbox, you're referring to the gearbox at the CR-V because you're out of room in the cargo area.

Yeah, I mean, he's putting stuff in the carburetor.

That's how resourceful he is when it comes to putting stuff into the CR-V.

Taking out the spark plugs and replacing it with Slim Jims.

Catherine, you got this chair, you say, under your own power.

That is to say, without consulting your husband.

You just went off rogue.

and got this chair.

Tell me about the chair.

Tell me why you love it.

Tell me where you got it.

You can tell me the name of the brand of the place that sold it to you.

Well, it's another Kelty chair.

Here we go.

It's just

a chair for one person instead of two people.

And it's also lower to the ground.

That's the other difference.

It's the kind where you can stretch back and stretch out.

Right.

The other chair is up a little bit higher.

And

sometimes I feel like my short legs kind of swing when I'm sitting on it.

Oh, really?

A little bit.

So I'm taking it that when you say that this new chair can seat only one, the one it seats is you.

Well, whoever decides to sit in it, sometimes even Dibney sits in it because he can get on and off the chair with his little stumpy legs more easily than the taller chair, which might injure him if he jumped off of it.

Tell me about Dibney as a camper.

What's it like to be camping with Dibney?

Because it seems like he's running the show.

He really is.

He is a very spoiled dog.

He is great to camp with.

He loves to wander around the campsite, sniff things, curl up on a chair, curl up on whoever is sitting in a chair.

He's also, when it's cold at night, he is an excellent sleeping bag, sleeping quote heater.

Right.

Hot water bottle.

Yeah.

So long as he wipes his paws on the blankets on top of the camp tent floor

before coming in, I presume.

Do you have a camp?

Do you have a camping outdoor shower?

We do have one.

We've never actually used it as a shower though.

What do you use it as instead?

An irrigation system?

We intended it as a camping shower during COVID when it was a little nervous feeling to go into bathhouses and campgrounds.

Right.

But we never actually used it for that purpose.

We actually use it to wash our bikes.

Okay, fair enough.

So does Dibney have his own camp seat?

No, because he wants to sit on whomever's lap is currently sitting down.

And whose lap does he prefer?

He isn't,

he is pretty evenly spit.

He's a.

Equal opportunity lap sitter?

Yeah, exactly.

Right.

How did it feel before you got the new chair to be coming out of the tent, walking through the garage, then you have to pass through the east wing and the video games room, and then also the lounge and then the mud room.

and then you finally get outside to see your loving husband lee sitting in the love seat with dibney in his lap and there's no room for you mostly it was uh

when we both sit there and then the dog just drapes himself across both of our laps it's cozy but it it was getting a little uncomfortable like because it won't sit still yeah it's kind of like when your feelings on uh people sleeping together at night where it's a little too cozy and there's too many people in bed and everyone's shifting around.

So it's nice to just have that one chair.

Yeah, no.

I mean, Lee, do you deny that this chair serves a pretty vital purpose?

I mean, what other option is there for Catherine if you and Dibney are snugged up on that love seat and she's not comfortable?

What do you say to her?

Go sit on the ground?

Well, we could ask Dibney to sit on the ground.

I mean, he does have an action.

Come on, Lee.

Let's be serious now.

No one's asking Dibney to sit on the ground.

I've seen the photos.

He'd just bring dirt to the blankets, which would then transfer to the foam.

And Dibney can't be on the ground.

He's a dog.

He's got to be on those laps.

You know his position on this.

He's pretty adamant on that.

I get back to my original question, Lee.

It seems reasonable to have an extra chair, don't you agree?

If it's not possible to have three of us in the love seat, then somebody would like to have a place to sit.

So, no, I don't think it's unreasonable, but

it's still too much.

It's too much.

Why a love seat to begin with?

Why not just two chairs?

Isn't that how two people can't?

They get two chairs, they sit in them.

How did this love seat come into your life?

Who bought it?

I think that was a group decision.

It's just one piece, you know, instead of having two of these to haul around and bundle up.

And it's actually convenient when we need to move it around.

There's just one thing to move.

It's just a little bigger, a little heavier.

So it wasn't for closeness reasons that you wanted this love seat.

It was for expediency of packing.

No, I didn't say that.

Well, you're not saying anything else.

You're saying it's one piece and it's easy to move around.

It saves you some hassle with the CR-V.

That's what I'm hearing.

It is also leg swinging, notwithstanding.

It is very comfortable, but less so with a dog sometimes.

Right.

Wouldn't the easiest answer to this be to just get rid of the dog?

No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Here's what you do.

How far away is this drive to the Catskills from Stanford, would you say?

A couple hours?

Two hours, yeah.

So here's what you do.

You get another car, you fill up your CR-V with all of your campsite stuff, and then the other car with all of Dibney's chairs and beds and tents.

And you two drive in the human car and he can drive the dog car.

Exactly.

And you'll have to help him set up his little campsite, of course, because no thumbs.

And also you're under his sway.

Yeah.

But just have a separate campsite for Dibney.

I think that that's a great solution.

Probably not the one you're looking for.

So Catherine, you have the new chair and you went camping with it.

How did that go?

I think it went pretty well.

You know, we sat in it, Dibney sat in it.

It fit.

Lee made it work.

It did fit in the car as he narrows his eyes at me.

And it was fine.

How did it feel to sit in your own chair while camping?

It was pretty nice.

I mean, I would sit in the chair.

Sometimes Lee would sit in the chair.

Sometimes we would both sit in the locker.

I'm sorry to interrupt you.

Lee, you sat in the chair too?

Yes, once or twice.

How dare you?

It's a little low to the ground for me.

So, Lee, are you telling me that not only did you want to ban this chair, but when it showed up, you then had the nerve to sit in it, and now you have the nerve to come on our podcast and there's no other way to say it, poop on it?

Well, it's there.

I might as well use it, right?

Is this a sitting poop, Lee?

Is it a sitting poop?

Not usually.

Okay.

So, Lee, let me ask you this question.

When you were sitting in the love seat this last time camping with presumably Dibney on your lap, and you look across not the campfire, but the Coleman range that you brought, probably a six-stop burner or whatever, and you see Catherine sitting there in her own chair, how do you feel then?

Um, you know, sometimes I wish Dibney would be happy to sit somewhere else so that Catherine and I can just have a little love seat for each other, but

so you do value love, not just seat.

Yes.

Right.

It's not just an efficient one piece piece of furniture that is easy to pack it is also an opportunity for coziness with your partner exactly so it did fit in or you got it there somehow how did you how did it fit well i had to figure out a way to squeeze it onto the stack without blowing everything up it could possibly explode um let's just say sometimes when we have to stop and i have to open the tailgate i worry that some things will right not stay put

and Just got to be ready to catch them if they drop out.

You're concerned about a cartoon closet situation.

Yes.

You probably shouldn't have packed those three bowling balls.

Dunk, thong, thunk.

Falling on your head.

Stars and birds.

So it was frustrating for you to pack it.

Were you able to see out the rearview mirror or was it blocking your view?

I was able to see out the back.

You did find a way.

Now, Lee.

Is this a slippery slope situation?

Are you concerned that if you allow this chair, this addition, that there'll just be more and more and more additions?

I think that's clearly a danger.

I mean, eventually we will run out of space.

Right.

Lee, does your car have a roof rack?

Unfortunately, it does not.

Have you ever considered a cargo box on top?

Because you're not against the gear.

Gear!

If we had rails on top, we'd definitely consider it, I think.

Although then the question remains where we'd put the cargo box when we were done with it at the end of the season, because we don't really have a place to store it.

Catherine, have you investigated a cargo box?

Is what Lee's saying true?

No, no rails on the CR-V, no way, no place to store it?

That's correct.

When we got the car, we had the smart idea to get a trailer hitch for our bikes, but no roof rack.

It was an oversight.

There are aftermarket rails you can get for CR-Vs.

And there's also things like cargo nets.

You can install a cargo net.

in the CR-V to prevent flying objects.

Oh, inside the car, you mean?

Yes.

I thought you meant you were going to put stuff on top of your car and then sort of secure it with a net.

I'm like, yeah, that's going to be a lot of fun to drive around, knowing you got all kinds of bowling balls and extra chairs secured by a net on top of the car.

No, thank you.

Lee, what's wrong with a net or a cargo barrier between the cargo area and the back seat?

There's no real place to mount it on top of the pile to keep it from bouncing off.

I don't see any tie-downs or anything inside the car where I could actually make that work.

I bet you that CR-V has some tie-downs.

Look, I know that you're a Canadian car packer i know you've got i know you've gotten in there so i'm going to trust that you know your vehicle but it seems to me most matchbacks have some tie-downs i just googled honda cr-v cargo barrier and there are many many choices many many choices of cargo barriers but maybe that's not what's the the crux here jesse thorne maybe the crux is the concern that catherine has things that she wants to put in the car period

catherine Lee mentions, and checking online, I can concur, a Honda CR-V is not a bottomless pit.

There is a limit to the amount of space in there.

Do you have your eye on any other equipment that you would like to add to your camping profile currently?

No.

I'm sorry, that felt like a lie to me, Catherine.

There was a significant pause there.

That pause to me did suggest that you were thinking:

am I truthful here or do I hold back the fact that I'm really interested in getting a camping media console?

It's more that I self-police myself to try to eliminate any temptation of acquiring any new gear.

Like for example,

there's like a sale going on at REI

and I go, okay, that would be kind of cool, but no, I try to buy anything else or mention anything else, Lee will say, no, that won't fit.

Or what are we going to do?

What are we going to take out

instead of taking this thing?

First of all, let me say finally a mention of REI in this buzz market fest that we've got going on here today.

I am a member of that cooperative, so thank you very much.

But second of all, policing my desires to look for new camping equipment as a way of life does not sound like fun.

Well, you know, it's the deep-seated Canadian anger that if I buy anything, he might make a passive-aggressive comment about how it won't fit in the car.

How does it make you feel, Lee, to know that Catherine is spending her time

tamping down even the idea of a curiosity of a desire for some new piece of camping equipment?

that she fears your Canadian passive aggression.

Well, now, I don't know if it'll go that far, but she just said it.

So how does that make you feel?

I'm not trying to stifle you, dear.

You know what, Lee?

I believe you.

Was there something more you wanted to say?

You know, it's okay to look at these things.

Any decisions that we make about adding more equipment to the pile, I mean, have to be undertaken jointly, I think.

That seems very reasonable, Catherine.

You admitted from the beginning that you got this chair on your own without without consultation that's true I mean you could appreciate that Lee's negative reaction might be less how do I fit this into the car but also like why aren't you checking with me I have a very specific way I get things into the car

this chair is not going away this chair is part of the pile now right Lee more or less so what specifically would you have me ordered Lee if I were to rule in your favor nothing ever again or what I would probably would just like to request that any desire to add new things be discussed first, you know, with an eye to practicality and available space.

Okay.

So no more sort of springing these little surprises on me.

Okay.

And oh, yes, we'll be taking this.

Well, I hope so, but

we'll find out.

Lee, are there any items in the current pile that

you would like to get rid of?

Because I could order them gone too.

It's not just the chair that hangs in the balance.

It could be anything.

Floor tiles, turntable and hi-fi set,

portable swimming pool.

I'm fine with the current with the current collection of camping gear that we have.

Portable helipad, portable casino.

Do you have a casino?

Do you have slot machines?

No?

You're okay with the pile as it is?

Just this chair is the last.

It's the last straw.

Yeah, that's pretty much the limit as far as I'm concerned.

Let this chair be the penultimate straw.

The last straw is the one that breaks the CR-V.

That's when the explosion happens.

Catherine, what would you have me order if I were to rule in your favor?

What he's asking for isn't unreasonable.

Oh, communication in a marriage?

The irony is normally we're very good communicators.

So why is this happening?

If you're good communicators, and I believe that you are, what drove you to go behind Lee's back and get a chair for yourself?

Because I thought he would say no if I got it.

Or if I asked to get it, he would say no.

Right.

And I wanted it.

Classic.

Beg for forgiveness, forgiveness.

Don't ask for permission move.

Yes.

Lee is concerned with safety during driving, Catherine, and not being able to use the rearview mirror.

Do you do any of the driving on these trips or is he the sole driver?

Oh, I drive.

I usually drive on the way there and then he'll drive on the way back.

Or if it's a longer drive, we'll share the driving.

But you don't share the same urgency when it comes to the possibility of your brand new chair that you bought flying out of your windshield like a missile.

I think I'm more comfortable with driving because I've driven across country with a trailer.

Right.

And so I'm more familiar with having driven without being able to see out of the rearview mirror.

I mean, I totally understand the safety aspect of it, but I feel like the I can't see out of the rearview mirror is something that isn't 100%

to me like a valid reason.

Do you think that consciously or unconsciously Lee is making it up?

No.

Well, I don't know.

Maybe he's just less comfortable.

Right.

He's just less comfortable, genuinely less comfortable.

Yeah.

He's not using that as an excuse to cover up a different preference, which is, I just don't want any more stuff and I don't want you to go buy more stuff.

I don't think so.

Okay.

Lee, any mischaracterizations that I've made of you that you'd like to clear up at this point?

I don't think so.

I think the discussion has proceeded fairly.

All right.

Good.

I'm glad to hear it.

So one thing I have to ask you, Lee, is, you know, Catherine said that she wanted the chair and she was afraid if she asked you about it, you would say no, and she wanted it.

So she went ahead and got it anyway.

What do you feel about that?

Obviously, I think it would have been better if she had asked me first,

you know, are you sure there's no room for this?

And then I probably would have said, yeah, I'm pretty sure.

But, you know, sometimes I'm wrong about things like that, you know, until we actually try it.

If the chair was on sale, say, you know, we got it and we couldn't make make it fit in the car, then we can't use it.

Either we send it back or find some other use for it.

It can't come with us.

The worst thing that happens is we've wasted some money.

But I would have preferred that she had approached me about it before she ordered it.

Okay.

Well, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I am going to go into my portable planetarium that I just assembled while I was judging this podcast.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Catherine, how are you feeling about your chances in the case?

Oh, I'm not feeling great.

Why is that?

Lee has presented some very logical arguments and I don't feel like things are on my side.

I mean, this is a man with a system.

True.

And he does have a habit of thinking things won't work at first, but then discovering that they in fact will work.

Or being resistant to change.

And then once he's presented with the change, adjusting himself.

You're telling me a man with a system is resistant to change?

These pieces just aren't adding up.

Lee, how are you feeling about your chances?

I feel like I've presented my arguments rationally and try not to be unreasonable about things.

I would, I don't know.

If the judge ruled in my favor, I'm...

I almost feel a little bad about it.

I don't want to make Catherine unhappy, right?

I don't want there to be disharmony because of this.

You know, the important thing is we know that the time that we spend together, you know, it's fun time, you know, regardless of the work it takes to get there.

And once the stuff is there and we're there, you know, it's

usually a nice relaxing time.

And I don't want squabbling over whether things will fit into the car or not, you know, to be

the thing that sort of hangs over these trips in the future.

All I'm asking for is a little consultation, I guess, before we throw anything more into it.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

you know we've been doing my brother my brother me for 15 years and maybe

maybe you stopped listening for a while maybe you never listened and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years i know where this has ended up but no no you would be wrong we're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing yeah you don't even really know how crypto works the only nfts i'm into are naughty funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back.

It goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break.

And as this episode is released, we are on the road.

We are ripping our way through the Midwest, delivering justice.

We just had an incredible time at the Opera House in Lexington, Kentucky.

And if you're hearing this today on the day of release, it's not too late to get your tickets for our Chicago show, which is tonight, October 11th.

And then it's on to Madison, Wisconsin, St.

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And then a short break before we go down to Atlanta, Charlottesville, Durham, North Carolina, Washington, D.C., Portland, Maine, Brooklyn, New York.

Why?

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So join us, won't you?

Go to vanfreaksroadshow.com for tickets and a link to submit your disputes.

We need your disputes in all those places, whether you're in the southeast, the northeast, or the midwest.

Go to vanfreaksroadshow.com, submit your dispute.

We'll get you backstage.

We'll shake your hand and take your picture, and you'll be immortalized on the world's most popular podcast, Judge John Hodgman, right?

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We haven't looked this up.

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Yeah.

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Absolutely.

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Submit those cases and get those tickets.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

You may be seated.

First of all, Lee and Catherine, I was so excited when I saw your camping setup.

And then when I heard that you had a queen air mattress, I was like, oh, they are so close to the dream.

Like, they already have a tent that is a house

and they already have one queen-sized air mattress in it.

How hard would it be for them to upgrade that to a king-sized air mattress and then get another tent house with another king-sized mattress and set it across from a portable reflecting pool, which you can easily get at REI and it comes in a bag?

That means it's portable.

And then you can live the Judge John Hodgman dream

of the ideal sleeping arrangement between people who love one another, which is obviously two king-sized beds and separate villas separated by a reflecting pole.

And you can visit each other from time to time.

But then I realized that's not for them, nor is it for me, honestly.

I also would miss my partner in that situation.

It's a joke.

It's an idea.

It's an ideal that should never be reached because clearly you two love each other and want to be close to each other and care about each other and you want to snuggle on that love seat.

And if it weren't for Dibney, you wouldn't have a problem in the world.

You have the love seat, not because it is a seat, but because it is love.

And if we could get rid of that dog somehow, but we can't.

Dibney rules everything around us.

And that's also the way it should be.

Now, it is perfectly reasonable, rational, logical, as you are all saying, that if you can't share the love seat comfortably, that you should then have another seating option.

for someone who might be like, I don't know, the person you married and love who has shorter legs than you do, Lee.

As Catherine pointed out, and as you pointed out, Lee, you also presented perfectly reasonable, rational, and logical

reasons for why you want it to stop here.

This chair, no further.

And I agree with you.

I think you are out of room in that CR-V.

And besides the discomfort that you feel just thinking about fitting more into your CR-V, a discomfort that I think you might want to interrogate a little bit more closely as to whether that's a a good thing in your life or not.

You feel put off and made discomforted by slight changes to your packing arrangement.

That might not be a trait that is bringing you happiness.

It's certainly not bringing Catherine happiness.

You are right, and it is logical, quite honestly, that Catherine should not have bought that chair behind your back and should not go off and buy

other pieces of camping equipment behind your back in the future.

This chair, no further in that regard as well.

You are good communicators, right?

But here's the thing.

You did a very, very good job answering all of my questions, as you pointed out, rationally.

But you didn't do a very good job answering emotionally.

Perhaps it's not part of your Canadian Constitution.

We'd have to ask Howie from Disbard about that.

He's an expert in Canadian constitutional law.

But when I asked you, how does it feel to hear that Catherine went behind your back because she was afraid you would say no,

you kind of sidestepped it.

And instead, you said, well, if she had asked me, I would have said no, basically.

You went into this long extrapolation of everything that could go wrong with the chair.

how it might not fit, how it might fit in a way that is dangerous, how if it didn't work out, what would you do with it?

I mean, you really looked far into the future instead of staying in the present and considering what you had just heard.

Maybe you would have have said no, maybe you would have said all those other things, maybe you would have said yes, but I think that you need to reckon with the fact that she went behind your back to buy a chair because she was afraid you would say no and get freaked out if she asked you about it ahead of time.

And I think that's a reasonable thing that she felt.

That is rational.

That is based on prior engagement, that she would feel that you would not be comfortable with even the idea.

of adding a chair to the portfolio and fitting it into the CR-V.

And though I rule in your favor, and I do feel that Catherine made the error here, and it's not an error that should be repeated, by sidestepping communication, I think that both of you need to interrogate a little bit about why this ended up happening.

And this is coming from someone who packs a car really, really intently and with intention.

And truly, I was not exaggerating that I get very, very psychologically derailed.

when all of a sudden a person who lives in my house comes out with two guitar amplifiers that I didn't know anything about that have to immediately come to Maine.

Oh, no.

Yeah, I know, Jesse.

Oh, I know.

I know.

I know.

Excuse me, two guitars, one amplifier, but still, that's one guitar and one amplifier more than I knew I was dealing with.

In any case, I feel you, Lee.

I really do.

Like,

I am someone who really does go to the worst case scenario.

with every camping chair metaphorically that I buy.

What if it doesn't fit?

What if it doesn't work?

What if it's not the best?

What if it doesn't go into the car?

How would we return it?

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm telling you, Lee, it's not a happy place for me.

And Catherine, I don't think it's a happy place for you to be, you know, sort of like walking by a web browser open to REI or Keltis or whatever.

And you're like, nope, no, I can't think about that.

Got to shut that computer because I don't even want to think about adding something to the portfolio.

These are things that we all go through.

It's not a big deal, but I do encourage you, though, I rule in Lee's favor in this case, but that you interrogate the dynamics a little bit and talk and communicate and reckon with the emotional stuff that's behind the chair and leave the rational and the logical.

They both have their place, of course.

But Lee, your response to the Tetris of your car planning being upended is an emotional response, as much as it is a logical and rational one.

And Catherine, too, your desire for a chair that you can sit in rather than be edged out by Dibney, that's also both a logical desire and an emotional one.

So with those caveats to talk further about this, I don't know when you would ever have time to talk about this.

It's like, it's not like you're going to be sitting out under the stars just contemplating life anytime soon, looking up at the vast field of the Milky Way,

listening to the Coleman stove percolate or whatever it is that happens, contemplating the big questions in life.

I don't know if that's ever going to be part of your life in the future, but you might take some time around that to discuss this stuff and give Dibney a pet for me.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Lee, how do you feel about that verdict?

I think it's fair.

And John's point about further introspection is well taken as well.

Can you imagine if someone in your family showed up with two guitars and an amp after you already packed the car?

I can imagine them showing up.

I'm not necessarily imagining me driving away with it

equipment in the car.

The dads, the United will never be defeated.

Catherine, how do you feel?

I feel pretty good about it.

The judge gave several good points about communication,

and we'll spend some time when we're in front of the campfire, looking at the campfire and talking it over.

Well, I love it.

Catherine Lee, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you.

It was fun.

You're welcome to join me on a camping trip anytime, as long as you don't show up with an open-topped bag at the last minute.

You got to put it by the door the night before so that I can work it out of my head.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

We'll have Swift Justice in just a minute.

First, our thanks to Redditor2Liv and Brian L.A.

for naming this week's episode Smorter in the Court.

You know why everyone that wins this contest's Reddit handle is a pun?

It's because they won a pun contest.

That just occurred to me.

Yep.

Just now that occurred to me.

They won a pun contest.

To live in Bryan, L.A.

is a great pun, too.

Yep, exactly.

Join the conversation over at the Maximum Fun subreddit.

That's maximumfun.reddit.com.

That's where we've been asking for these title submissions.

So get in on it.

It's fun just to see them, even if you don't.

Look, I can never think of puns

and I have nothing but contempt for them.

But I look at it and I still enjoy it.

I still do, too.

You know what I mean?

I really enjoy them a lot.

You can find the photos of this amazing dog and this wild campsite at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

Follow us there.

Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Ian Callanan at Carriage House Studios in Stamford, Connecticut, and by Joel Mann at WERU in Orland, Maine.

Marie Bardy runs our social media.

Congratulations to her on her wedding.

Congratulations.

Congratulations.

Marie.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment.

Stacy

and Judge Hodgman, this is our Max Fun colleague, Stacey Molsky.

That's true.

Extraordinary.

Extraordinary that the number two executive at Maximum Fun is taking the time to submit dumb dispute.

Hopefully, it's not with me.

Oh, boy.

Stacy says, I use the words ground and floor interchangeably, and I think that's fine and normal.

My partner does not think that is fine and normal.

He always laughs at me if I say things like, I don't like when blankets touch the ground.

So this is really interesting, Jesse, because not only is Stacey a member of the Maximum Fund Employee Owner Cooperative and a friend, she is also, along with Lee and Catherine, a member of a secret society that I have no knowledge of and cannot acknowledge that it even exists.

So, for all of these reasons, maybe for the first time in Judge John Hodgman history, I have to recuse myself from this one.

Holy moly.

And I'm going to throw this one to our good friend, Joel Mann.

Joel, did you hear the case in question?

Yes, I did.

Yes, I did.

And I'm sorry, I didn't give you any warning that I was going to ask for your wisdom on this.

But I have to recuse myself.

You understand.

I can't be unbiased on this.

True.

Now, wait a minute.

Before I ask you this question, has Stacy bought you any luxurious trips in private planes?

Has she invited you to her hunting lodge for five weeks or anything like that?

Do you know Stacey Molesky?

Has she had business before your court before?

Did Stacy get you a $250,000 RV?

Anything like that?

No.

Okay.

So you are prepared to be unbiased?

I am unbiased.

And, well, then all I can do is I'm ready for your ruling.

Ground or floor?

Are they interchangeable?

I don't think so.

I think the ground is when you're outside and the floor is when you're inside.

Harsh but fair.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, look, this is exactly what we were talking about in this case.

If you're camping, the outside is ground.

If you're inside the tent and you've put in a floor, then it's floor.

You know what I want to get, Jesse?

REI sells hardwood flooring for tents.

Did you know that?

No, I hadn't.

I've been getting

classic pattern and herringbone.

I would prefer a parquet like

the garden in Boston.

Joel Mann, I just want to say thank you.

It's been so much fun to spend the summer with you.

As always, WERU is a fantastic radio station.

I listen to it not only on land, but also there's a boat that has a radio on it.

And I was listening to it last night.

And I heard Sue Georges play a couple of David Bowie songs from the Life Aquatic soundtrack.

And I was just like, what a gift to the world that WERU is.

And I know that you had your pledge drive.

That's long in the distance, but

it's a shame because it means people can never donate money to the station no no that's not true oh my mistake yeah yeah weru.org weru.org everyone you can also listen to the station there and i highly recommend it i'm just going to put out a plug not only do i make it a point to always listen to joe bird and the field hippies on repeat during the joel man hour do you have an hour when you spin discs not anymore not anymore you just run the show yeah

But

I love the Acadian music show on Sunday mornings.

It's really terrific.

Everything's great.

Well, it's been a great summer, and I wish you and Jesse all the best of luck on your tour.

Oh, thank you very much.

And when we see you, you can explain how you helped John Lennon and Yoko Ono escape from the Senate during the Watergate Heritage.

Watergate here.

Yeah, all right.

I will.

Thank you very much.

WERU.org.

Meanwhile, unbelievably, we are already in October, and that means it is spooky day,

spooky night,

Halloween.

Coming up, I wrote that song myself.

Don't get on me, Asscap.

It's my own composition.

Do you have Halloween-themed disputes?

We always have them.

Fun size versus full size.

What's the better kind of decoration?

Classic plastic skeleton or some kind of blow-up situation?

You know, those inflatables.

Are those cheap?

Are those good?

What about a 10-foot skeleton?

I saw one of those in Brooklyn last year.

Very, very scary.

Is that acceptable?

Or do the neighbors have a right to TP it?

What's the worst costume you've ever worn?

What's the best costume to wear in Halloween this season?

Any kind of dispute you have for us, please send it in maximumfund.org slash JJHO is where we absorb all of your disputes and make podcast magic out of them.

But we do need your disputes, and I do mean all of them, right, Jesse?

MaximumFund.org slash JJHO, no matter what they are.

Judge Hajman, as I was reading that question from Stacey, it occurred to me that now that I'm a mere creative executive at Maximum Fund and a member of the worker owner cooperative myself,

not only do I no longer outrank Stacey,

who is the number two business executive at Maximum Fund on our org channel,

but also then when you recused yourself, I found out that I'm also outranked by Joel.

Wow.

Wow.

It's a dark day for me, co-creator of the Judge Sean Hoshman podcast.

I'm sorry, Jesse.

Do you want to make a quick list of everyone that outranks me now?

Yeah, we should put out a t-shirt that has the Judge John Hodgman org chart on it.

Probably sell some sweet teas.

Oh, my gosh.

You know what?

I'm a free radical.

I'm going to cause cancer in this organization.

Hey, I guess we always say we'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

And that's true, but we'll also see you soon on the Van Freaks Road Show.

So go on to vanfreaksroadshow.com, get those tickets, send in those disputes.

And what else is there to say, Jesse?

That's it.

We'll talk to you and see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artist-owned shows, supported directly by you.