Live From London 2023

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

It's me, Governor, your Judge John Hodgman.

This week's episode was recorded live in London at the London Podcast Festival.

It was our second stop in our Van Freaks Road Show tour, which is revving back up October 9th in Lexington, Kentucky.

Visit vanfreaksroadshow.com for the rest of our dates and cities and to buy tickets and to submit your disputes, vanfreaksroadshow.com.

Now let's go to the stage at King's Place for some live justice at the London Podcast Festival.

London, you've come to us desperate for justice, and we're here live at the London Podcast Festival to deliver it.

Let's bring out our first set of litigants.

Please welcome to the stage May and Paul.

Our case

undergrounds for dismissal.

When May and Paul go out together, May prefers to take the bus.

She likes to take her time and see the city.

But Paul hates the bus.

He says the tube is quicker and more reliable.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Rattle big black bones in the danger zone.

There's a rumbling groan down below.

There's a big black town.

It's the place I've found.

Judge John Hodgman is in London Town.

They're alive.

They're awake.

While the rest of the world is asleep.

Below the mine shaft roads,

it will all unfold.

John John Hodgman is in London Town.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, you may swear them in.

The role you were born to play.

May Paul please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he travels only by rigid airship?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may be

semi-rigid these days, I'm afraid.

We all get older.

May and Paul, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I arose from my slumber to speak to you here in London?

May, do you want to take a guess?

I think I know it, but I can't think of it.

So I'm going to definitely look back and regret it.

No, you'll regret nothing.

Okay.

Is it a Nick Cave song?

Is it a Nick Cave song?

That's a very good guess.

I like it.

I like the guess.

This is an artist with a very specific vocal style.

I know.

I know.

And Nick Cave is not that.

But that's fine.

I think you're in the ballpark, though.

Yes.

What about you, Paul?

I wasn't really sure, but maybe like a Tim Burton something.

Tim Burton, sort of a haunted carnival feel, is also in the same neighborhood.

Judge Hodgman.

Did you have a guest, Jesse?

I did.

Yeah.

Tone Loke?

Tone Loke.

That's exactly right.

It is Funky Called Medina by Tone Loke

as covered by Tom Waits.

All guesses are wrong.

It was Tom Waits' song from his album Swordfish Trombones, specifically called Underground, because that is what we are talking about here today, the London Underground and also the London Double Above Ground, which is what we call a bus or a loo here in London.

Exactly so.

So who comes to seek justice in this fake court?

I do.

And you are May, correct?

What is is the nature of the justice you seek?

So yeah, Paul and I live in central London.

When we go out and about together.

I thought I detected a central London accent.

Born and bred.

When we go out together, I prefer to take the bus.

It's more enjoyable.

You prefer to take the bus when you go out and about.

And Paul, how do you respond?

So I am actually from London.

And when we go out, I prefer to take the tube.

because I like to get to places.

What line is your favourite line?

Probably the Victoria line, because that's my nearest one, and there's trains every minute, minute and a half, and they just turn up and they just go.

And they go.

I understand.

Let the record reflect that when you said Victoria line, someone went, woo!

Are there favorite lines?

Are there good lines?

Oh, yeah, yes, yes.

What's the best line?

Ah!

Did someone say the district line?

Oh my god, someone said the district line?

I also know what that means.

May, when did you first take a London bus?

It must have been when you were coming home from the hospital here in England.

Yeah, exactly.

No, I moved here 10 years ago.

I did a semester abroad even before that, so it must have been 2010.

I took my first bus.

Your first bus, and what did it feel like when you were taking it?

Was it love at first?

Bus?

Yes.

Yeah, no, it was great.

I think, see, growing up in the U.S., U.S., which is

where did you actually grow up, if I may say?

I moved around a lot as a child.

I grew up in the Midwest

region.

Sure.

Lots of different places in the suburbs, so no public transport.

No public transportation, what to say?

No.

So growing up watching movies and TV shows, seeing that double-decker iconic red bus.

Iconic.

Arriving to London, just being like, whoa, it's real.

Right.

Riding that bus, especially the night bus specifically.

Everyone loves the night bus.

I also spent a semester of college here in London on a drink abroad program of my own devising.

And I remember loving the night bus.

So reliable.

And also the people you meet on the night bus.

Just the loveliest.

You might get some free food thrown at you or regurgitated at you.

It's like you're a little bird in a nest.

Someone's trying to feed you some curry and

ale

from their stomachs that's great and so the majesty and the romance of the night bus really won you over yes and uh

and Paul why is May wrong she's wrong about buses because they're really slow and they don't turn up very often and a very London bus is probably the best buses in the country in all of England do you mean or Britain or probably anywhere probably okay they might be the best in the world but probably the best in the world but they just are slow and they don't go in they don't turn up and they don't

they don't get you there in the time you want to get there.

You are a Londoner.

Yeah.

How did you two meet?

Online.

Really?

Yeah.

And how long ago did you meet?

Nine years ago.

Nine years ago.

So you had moved here already.

Yeah.

You did not move to pee with Paul?

No.

No.

Wonderful.

Sounds like you're still deciding.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

In the process.

Yeah, all right.

Paul, you're a Londoner.

Yeah.

Would you think most Londoners would agree with you that the buses suck?

Yeah, I think they would.

Buses suck.

Boom.

All right.

Who here loves buses?

Who here hates buses?

Oh, more bus lovers in the crowd.

Yeah.

This is not going to be decided by a jury.

Okay.

Fair.

Now, you submitted some evidence to the court, some photographic evidence.

Could you see that?

It's always great for a podcast to have photographic evidence.

What's the first piece of evidence, please?

Oh, Jesse, you've got the clicker.

Look at that.

That is a view from my my second favorite bus route.

Right.

So what we're looking at, for those of you listening at home, are four empty seats on the top decker of a double-decker bus.

There is a lonely empty can of Red Bull rolling around

in one of them.

And just behind in the distance, you can see just a bit of the arc of the London Super Wheel.

And then obviously, beautiful HP Tower right there.

HP Sauce Tower right there behind it.

It is truly a lovely scene.

So tell me, why is this your favorite bus route?

It's my second favorite bus route.

Oh, excuse me.

Yeah.

It's the 341 that's going over Waterloo Bridge, back up to my house in Angel.

And yeah, it's a good route because it gets you to Waterloo and you don't have to take the tube to Waterloo when you need to get there.

And you get this lovely view.

The 341 bus?

Yeah, the 341.

Does that mean that there are at least 341 different routes, Paul?

No, I don't think so.

Well, why?

Why is it the 341?

Oh, I read a whole book about it once, but I can't remember.

You read a whole book about it?

Yeah, there's a whole, well, because they used to be run by separate companies.

Every company would have the right thing.

Had its own numbering system.

That's right.

And so, why make it easy for anyone to get around?

Yeah, exactly.

You have to decipher a code, right?

It's like the Enigma code.

You figure out where you're going.

I'm talking from experience.

I tried to take the bus yesterday.

I'll tell you about it later.

Yes, please.

I still don't know what happened.

What bus was it?

I ended up not at my destination, but I ended up sometime yesterday.

It does happen.

Yeah.

But in any case, it was very nice.

Paul, did you want to say something?

No, apart from like this bus just takes ages.

If you want to get to Waterloo and you're going there for a train, you're just like, you have to leave really early or else you're going to miss your train.

Is it hard to get to Waterloo?

From our flat, this bus actually is quite convenient.

It's just slow.

What about to escape if you wanted to?

Yeah, yeah.

Jesse, we're not holograms.

Paul,

do you work at home?

Do you have to commute, either of you?

I'm mixed.

I work from Highland Commute.

Right, okay.

And man.

I'm fully remote.

You're fully remote, so you don't ever have to be anywhere you don't want to be.

No.

And I can usually take my time, you know, watch the world go by.

How did you get here tonight?

We walked.

Oh.

I think we agree.

That's good.

I'm glad that you agreed to walk everywhere until I decided what you will do for the future.

I think we do agree that walking is the best.

But if it's too long to walk, then we disagree.

Then you have to choose something else, I'll be right back.

Yeah, exactly.

What's the next slide that you brought?

Oh.

That's Rupert Giles, our pup.

You know, you could have picked just one of those names, and it would be perfectly adorable English and twee, but you had to add both.

Yeah, it's Rupert Giles.

What kind of dog is Rupert Giles?

He's a

mutt.

A schnauzer, poodle, cocker spaniel.

Yeah, and wouldn't you agree, May, that he looks terrified being brought into a hole?

Yes.

Yes, yeah, he does.

Yes, that's why I'm a little bit more.

Well, you agree as well, Paul.

Yeah, sometimes you just have to do it.

Are you allowed to bring dogs into the subway?

Of course.

Of course, that's not self-evident.

How else do you get anywhere with a dog?

Subways are for people.

But

any pet can go onto the subway at any time?

I don't know actually.

Dogs are allowed, though.

Dogs are definitely allowed.

Anything in a crate hole.

A total thing.

Right.

Can dogs ride the subway without people.

I've never seen it happen.

What if they have to get to Waterloo?

There's videos all the time of pigeons jumping onto the tube, riding at a stop or two, and then jumping off, which, yeah, animals can do what they want.

We ever see a cat on a leash in there?

Yes, thank you.

I love that.

What about a guy with an iguana on his shoulder?

Haven't seen that.

No.

I love seeing a cat on a leash.

It's just so humiliating to them.

Next slide, please.

Oh, Paul, here you are.

You're so happy next to your Lego London underground map.

This is at the London Transport Museum out in

the Lego Museum.

Get wrong, Paul.

It's at the TFL Depot.

It's at the TFL Depot.

The Transport for London depot, where they store the older.

They store all the old undergrounds.

They store all the Legos and Lego maps, yeah.

And who submitted this piece of evidence?

I submitted it because I wanted to be nice.

Because look at how happy he is.

He's very happy.

Do you have an affection for the underground beyond just its functionality and getting places?

I like trains in general.

I think they're cool.

You like ChuChi trains?

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

I mean, modern trains are great, but Chu Chi trains are fantastic as well.

What about funiculars?

What about gondolas?

Yeah, no problem.

I've got no problem.

No thoughts, really, anyway, with a gondola.

Jesse, if you had to get rid of all subway trains or all funiculars, what would you do?

God, that's hard.

Yeah.

I love riding the subway in Los Los Angeles, but I love riding Angel's Flight, Los Angeles' most famous funicular.

Of the many famous funiculars.

I've ridden Los Angeles.

It's quite fun.

It's really great.

However, it now occurs to me: without the subway, I couldn't get to Angel's Flight, so I'm going to stick with the subway.

All right, the Los Angeles subway is saved.

Good job.

Good choice.

And with it, my family's trips to the Central Library.

Paul, what do you like about the train so much?

What's the appeal?

So, more for trains than the tube.

I just like when you're on a train and you know you're going to get somewhere in time, if it's working, you just can just sit out and stare out the window.

Obviously, it doesn't work on tube so much.

Right.

But yeah, I just like, so on trains, that, on tubes, it's more just you know

how long a journey is going to take.

So you know what time you have to leave, and you don't have to guess how long a bus it's going to take to get through tracks.

And also, tracks.

Yes.

They can just take a left.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's going to go to that station.

They're going to go where they're going to go.

It could skip a station.

Terrifying possibility.

Could skip a station, but it's going to at least go through the station.

Yeah.

Buses may go anywhere.

I mean, you're at the whim of the driver.

That's kind of part of the magic, right?

Well,

what if the driver wakes up one morning and takes a bunch of psychedelic mushrooms and decides to go rogue?

And suddenly you're five blocks from where you were supposed to be.

The worst possible outcome.

I thought you were going to say, and suddenly dogs are allowed to ride this subway.

But you like the predictability of trains.

Is that not right, Paul?

Yeah, absolutely.

You just know how long it's going to take and when they're going to turn up.

Has the train ever let you down, Paul?

All the time.

Oh, but much less frequently than a bus would let you down.

What was the worst train situation you ever had?

I spent an hour just sat in a tube train in a tunnel.

Right.

When they break down, you just underground.

Yeah.

Unable to get out.

Or text anyone or text or communicate with anyone.

Yeah.

Just breathing human farts.

Yeah.

Some of them are mine, though, so it's fine.

No, no, I understand.

Some of them are dogs.

May, has the bus ever let you down catastrophically?

Yeah, I have to admit.

What was the worst situation that ever happened?

There was, well, actually, it's based off of a tube let down.

There was a tube strike a few years ago.

So everyone was on the buses and the

traffic was really bad because everyone was driving as well.

And I got stuck on the number eight bus.

3952.9?

No, this was the number eight bus right outside St.

Paul's Cathedral and we were just sat there for probably a good hour.

But with a bus you can jump off.

You can get out.

Yes.

You can escape.

But you didn't.

You just sat there.

You took it.

You could have just got off and walked and got been home in an hour.

It was on my way to work so I wasn't really in a hurry.

And why was it stopped?

Mechanical error?

No, it was just traffic jams.

Oh, yeah.

I was going to say, what is the difference between a bus that is stopped in traffic and a bus that is operating normally?

Zero difference.

Some of them zoom real fast.

Some of them zoom fast.

Yeah.

When you, would you have any claustrophobia, May?

Is this an anti-tube thing?

Yeah, it's partially anti-tube, partially pro-bus.

I feel, especially during rush hour, very closed in on a full tube train.

Sure.

When you're kind of in a nook of someone's armpit for an hour.

Yeah, you probably shouldn't be in there.

No.

Without consent.

Yeah, I agree.

It's tough.

Paul, do you have a similar reaction to buses?

You know, like a sense of anxiety?

A bit.

Sometimes it depends he's on them.

Like, as you were saying earlier, it's like the later ones just get quite sketchy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But you don't have my fear that when you're on a bus, the bus driver will just go rogue and take you anywhere.

I mean, they do take...

Or maybe you're now thinking about it for the first time.

They do take random routes quite often.

They're not random.

You can look them up online beforehand.

Well, they don't normally tell you.

They'll just be like, oh, something's broken down over there, so we're going to go, instead of going that, we'll go like that.

Has this ever negatively affected your life when you've been on the bus and you've ended up missing an appointment or something similar?

Well,

I like turning off on time, and like if we're meeting some friends or something, I don't want to be the late person.

Has that happened?

All the time.

If we take the buses, yeah.

Yeah.

Would you say, what would be the rate of being late to meet a friend when you take the bus?

100% of the time?

I'd say 75% of the time.

Maybe you disagree?

That's probably right.

But it's never catastrophically late.

It's like 10 minutes.

Oh, very continental of you.

Exactly.

Is part of this that you don't leave enough time to get there on the bus?

Yes, for sure.

We could give ourselves a lot more time and we could get there via the bus.

But we both operate on a sort of just-on-time basis.

Like Walmart.

Yeah, like Walmart, yeah.

And

if we take the train, you know when it's going to, you know, you know what you're going to do and when you're going to get there.

All right, everyone has a preference, but what would you have me rule, May, if I were to rule in your favor, no tubes ever?

I think, to be fair,

tubes have a place.

But just

when...

I appreciate your fairness.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't think this should all be destroyed.

I should have taken a place.

Yes.

But I think we should only take the tube if we have to get somewhere for a show or a gig where they might actually close the doors.

So if we were late, it would be catastrophic.

But meeting friends wouldn't fit that.

It's fine.

How do you feel when you're late meeting friends?

And is it only 10 minutes?

Or is that a.

10 minutes plus.

I just feel guilty.

Like, why am I making my friends hang around for me because I'm too late?

When you know you're late, do you feel like.

I'm with text.

I'm like, I'm going to be sort of anything over two minutes late.

And I'm like, sorry, I'm running late text person.

Well, yeah, sure.

But do you feel it physically when you're running late?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Not a fun feeling for you.

No.

What do we feel?

Just like guilty, you know, the all-encompassing guilt.

How How is that different from being English?

That might be the problem, yeah.

What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor, Paul?

I'd like no more buses ever.

Fill them all with tubes.

Every now and then, the bus is okay.

I'd like sort of tubes to be the primary option.

Like, that's your first choice, and buses are fullback.

Right.

Write a first refusal for tubes.

Yeah, that's right.

But when do we then not use the tube?

Where do we draw the line?

If we're going to Hackney.

buses are for hackney only yeah that sounds right i couldn't agree more and know what that means

do we have any more evidence yeah let's see let's take a look up here at a little more evidence

oh

dogs are allowed on buses too no that's a dude that's a train that's a train but that's not a is that a

that's like a mainline train a mainline train

line on this train what what what's his name

sinjin fife or whatever

Seems very happy there.

Yeah, he's happy there.

On a mainline train.

He's not underground.

Because he's not underground.

You think he makes sense

that

he's going down deep into a tube full of people

that he can't.

Yeah, exactly.

Totally.

That's me on a bus.

Look how happy I am in this one.

What is the steering wheel?

So part of the reason I love buses is because if you go on the top deck and you sit in the front, you can pretend you're driving.

Right.

Classic.

And on this bus, randomly, this was in Jersey, and we went on the top deck, went to the front, and there was a steering wheel just waiting.

Oh, there's a fake steering wheel for children.

Yeah.

For everyone.

It didn't have a sign or anything.

I thought that that was something that you brought with you on every bus.

Which is a good idea.

Which is not a terrible idea if you enjoy it.

Love it.

All right, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I am going to descend into my underground lair to make my decision.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Paul, how do you feel about your chances tonight?

I think it went pretty well, yeah.

I feel like good chance it.

I think he listened to my arguments and gave me a sympathetic

review.

Did you see that that timer that was ticking down in front of you turned red?

Yeah, I did.

I was very impressed by how he drove us free the tie with times.

How do you feel though?

Because it's red now.

Well, I've seen red means that I've won.

Do you want to send some texts?

This isn't my party, so you can be as late as you want, I think.

May, how are you feeling?

I'm not feeling great, to be honest.

Are dogs allowed on buses?

Of course.

Why do we live in America?

It's a great question.

Dogs are allowed to be.

There is a reason she's here.

That's one of the reasons.

Number one reason is the dogs on transport.

Well, Paul, May, we'll find out what Judge John Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a moment.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

I'm getting too old for that bit.

So I have been visiting your country for a long time.

My mother was an Anglophile, and she would come up with reasons that we would have to visit.

The first time I ever came to London, and the first time I ever encountered the underground, was when I was about 11 years old.

I know that I was 11 years old because when we came over, I had a head cold and I got sick, and I had to stay in bed for a couple of days during our visit.

And my father brought me a comic book, and it was the June 1983 edition of The Legion of Superheroes.

And I said to my dad, Father, a DC comic?

Really?

You know me not at all.

And I tore it up in his face.

No, he was doing his best.

And I like Legion of Superheroes.

But the first time I ever saw the tube, I remember thinking to myself, maybe even saying out loud, oh my god, they really did it.

It's a tube.

Doesn't have to be a tube.

You know, I grew up in Boston, Massachusetts.

We have a subway.

It's a hallway.

You know, it's a square rectangular hallway.

It doesn't have to be a tube like something that a rodent dug.

Do you know?

And not only that, it's a tube within a tube.

Like the trains are tubes too.

That's just too, I mean, the branding's impeccable.

But I mean, if you really want the experience of being deep underground and running through a tube as though you are running away from danger, like the rabbits and watership down, but there's nowhere to go because the men have plugged up all the holes and they're sending poison down the holes.

That's what riding the tube is like.

And I'm not normally claustrophobic, but it's just the fact that it's curved and you're like, ooh, really a tube.

Not all of them, but some of them.

By contrast, I mentioned before, I took the bus yesterday and it was terrible.

I was walking.

I was walking along a road, a main road, and I happened to have a little oyster card in my pocket because I'm an international traveler.

And a bus came along.

I'm like, this will relieve me of my walk.

I was starting to feel a little bit tired.

I'm too old to be jumping up and down behind a podium all the time.

So I get onto this bus and I'm looking at my phone, which is tracking its progress because I figure, okay, probably a popular mapping application will be able to tell me which route I'm on.

And I saw all the routes of the bus, and this bus was on none of them.

This bus was on no route whatsoever.

And it was going down a major road, and then it took a left, no, excuse me, a right, off its route just to go on its own.

My worst possible fear finally came true.

It was just doing its own thing, and I got off that bus very fast.

And I hobbled back up to the main road to wait for a different bus.

And then I looked at

all the signage on the post to explain to you what to do.

And there were 5,000 numbers there.

And none of it was comprehensible to me.

So I decided, okay, I think I've got this figured out.

I think I'm going to get on, I think it was a 38 bus.

That's my number one bus.

That's your number one bus.

The best bus.

Well, f that.

Sorry to swear.

But I would ask you please to ring them up and explain that a foreign visitor was excited to ride the number 38 bus, as were many other people, locals who needed to go to a place.

The bus, number 38 bus, came along, slowed down to a stop.

The driver looked at all of us

and then went, no.

And then just kept on.

No possible explanation for it other than spite.

The bus wasn't full, and just people just were very upset about it.

And that's when I gave up on the bus after that.

Can you explain that why that happened?

They might not have liked the look of you.

It's not just me.

I mean, that I would accept.

As a plural of the group, potentially.

Oh, all of us.

They could have thought you might have started something.

No, it was in the middle of the afternoon.

This wasn't a night bus.

We were all just trying to.

I don't know.

Does that happen?

That the bus just will not stop?

Yes.

And what reason?

Only when it's full.

Sometimes it's full.

Sometimes the driver is just annoying.

It does seem to me that the bus is a little less predictable, but that's known.

I mean, really, what should be happening here is, you know, people like what they like.

You're going to go meet friends, you take the bus, you take the tube, and you'll get there first, and then you'll look, you know, late, and no one will care.

But then you don't get to enjoy the company of each other, right?

Can you enjoy each other's company

on your hated form of transportation?

I think so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, well, you can never ride together again.

I'm really stuck here because I don't know what possible standing

you would have, Paul, to order May to never take the bus again.

I think that May's solution is reasonable.

If you are

trying to make a concert or a movie or

a restaurant reservation, and May, if you're meeting friends, you have to take the tube.

If you're going for a fantastical joyride through the magical city of London with no real destination and no need to get anywhere.

And really riding is kind of optional too, because it might just be sitting and looking, then absolutely take the bus.

But if there's something, if you're traveling together and you have to hit a time period, then I do think that you have to go ahead and take the tube.

Paul, I rule in your favor.

I hope that you'll enjoy it.

But Paul,

your friends don't care if you're late.

That's something you can do.

You can do some deep breathing exercises, exercise some distress tolerance.

Do you know what I mean?

They don't really care.

I just a reminder: no one's really thinking about you as much as you are thinking about yourself.

They're all thinking about themselves.

And you know, it's very rare that you're actually making someone uncomfortable because you're late.

But that said, I don't think that you deserve to feel uncomfortable while you're going to a place, and therefore, I rule in favor of the deep, dark tunnel that is the tube.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Thank you.

Hey, and Paul, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Judge Hodgman really was excited.

Like, the first thing that John said when we got to London was, and I'm not making this up, I'm excited to ride the bus.

I really want to.

I was really, I mean, I truly was excited to ride the bus.

I haven't, I like ride, I actually like riding the tube.

And there's one thing that Paul forgot to point out is that unlike the bus, the tube has stations.

Stuff's happening in those stations.

There's some busking going on and urination.

Other things are happening in the stations.

I was really excited to ride the bus, bus, but the bus shore did cure me of that.

That was a terrible experience.

I got to tell you, I immediately talked Smack about how I prefer the subway.

And guess what I went out and did immediately thereafter?

Yeah, that's right.

I got up on the top floor of a double-decker right in the front window and enjoyed a long ride to East London.

Did you pretend to steer and go pew, pew, pew, like you're firing lasers?

Well, there wasn't a...

children's steering wheel there, so no.

Jesse, last time we were here, we had a very special musical guest come and sing for us, and it was so wonderful.

And I've missed her so much, and I'm happy to say that we're very lucky because it's going to happen again.

That's right.

Introduce our guest.

Yeah, last time she was here performing under the name of Emmy the Great, but while she remains great, she is also many other things, a singer, songwriter, essayist, and the author of a forthcoming book, One Person Playing Two Roles, a Kanto Pop Memoir.

Please welcome welcome to the stage Emily Moss.

Emily Moss to the stage, if you please.

Hi, hi, thank you so much.

I love the name of your dog.

This song is called Flower Market.

It's a new song.

It's for a music project I haven't...

done anything with so it's a secret

um but yeah it's called flower Market.

Um, and I wrote it after finding a voice note of

my mum walking through a flower market criticizing beautiful flowers.

Um, thanks.

Moi fa lan fa

lin fa tofa, mo yin fa, lo yan fa, kuk fa ta

Mui fa lan fa

Lin fa fa to fa

mu yin fa le yan fa kuk fa ta

I'll find a wild acre in this life

Put my head down and set in roots

Seeds I sow will soon grow shoots

in my wild acre

I'll find a wild acre

where there's light

Moving around the trees at night

Warm for nothing when the fruit grows ripe

In my wild acre

Marigold, dandelion, lavender,

rose and hyacinth and ivy, stinging nettle, archichoke, wild thesle.

Moon-colored buffalo

in my mind.

I leave you out in that sweet green rice

bay

in your distant tide and your

wild icer

Moi Fa

Lan Fa

Lin Fa

To Fa

Mo Yin Fong

Lo Yan Faung Fata

You

took me to the

flower market

so we could

pick up some

spring branches

Blossom and threw me a line

We will not pay full price for a glorified bucket.

Get into the car,

your heart's full,

we're going home.

And I don't even think,

I don't even think there's a

correlation here.

But the seasons come around,

they come around,

they are

returning

And this one

This one is my favorite

Moon colored buffalo

in my mind

Meet me at a nice sweet green rice

Your mother's voice

Your mother's voice is calling you

Calling you you you you you you, you, you.

Your mother's voice

in your water.

Thank you.

Emma Lee Moss, everyone.

Hey, Emma.

Thank you for being here with us.

And so you're in the midst of an artistic transition.

Oh, that's a nice way of putting it.

Yeah.

You have ended the project that was known as Emmy the Great.

Yeah, I did a final gig, which was really nice.

It was like a ritual kind of thing.

Yeah.

Right.

I feel like I should talk into the mic because I had extensive.

So I have my back to you.

Why don't you come around this way and you can speak into that microphone just for a moment?

Okay.

And so

you had a ritual in which you, did you burn yourself an effigy?

So my bandmate said that we should get a cardboard cut out of me and run it over with a car.

But we didn't have the budget.

Oh no.

So I just did 12 songs.

Fair enough.

Yeah.

And what prompted the change?

Well, I wanted to do it

a long time ago.

I thought I would wrap it up after a certain point and start something new because I was playing a lot of really old songs, you know, from when I was like 19 years old.

And just some of the references had gone out of date.

I didn't feel the same way.

I often updated the song lyrics.

Right.

But then it was just like,

you know, that thing where you're like cutting the broom.

It's like an only fools and horses thing.

And you're just like, what am I working with here?

So, yeah.

Sure.

Oh, I know about that.

I know all about that.

I also know all about that.

I've seen it loads, but I only know that the victoria line yeah i like the um district line wow just to back back that person up i mean i don't love it but are you team tube or team bus i was we were sitting back there and we were discussing every single line um so we didn't hear everything but we thought that your ruling was kind

yeah i know i'm sorry

I really believe me, when we get to mob justice, I'm going to be much meaner.

It's going to be much more exciting.

It's going to be an absolute bloodbath.

We're going to be taking every single one of these audience members, making a cardboard version of them and running them over with a justice car.

Yeah, the printing is happening as we speak.

We scanned you all as you came in.

It's going to be traumatic.

I'm sorry.

I think you guys are going to be nice to everyone.

Oh, gosh, you're probably right.

Sorry.

I mean, but the fact is, you were and are great.

But I really admire when someone realizes, like, oh, I'm in a different time as an artist, and it's time to mark that somehow.

Yeah, it felt really good.

I mean, I didn't after the pandemic.

I'm sorry, the what?

Yeah, I didn't want to say it.

I didn't want to be the first person to say it.

So I sat still for a really long time and you know I just couldn't let go.

So I actually carried on for another two years because I was like, I really need to hold on to these old songs.

And then it got to the point where I could actually feel like the old me knocking about.

inside just being like you need to move on so and so you are and you have this book coming out I am writing it and definitely fingers crossed it will come out when I've written it

I historically that is the order in which it happens so that's good news I have to write it and what is it about it's about

my life in Hong Kong I have lived some of my life in Hong Kong

and I have listened to music there that I haven't listened to publicly here.

So it's about like decompartmentalization and the music of

like fandom and the music of Hong Kong.

Kantopop.

Kanto pop.

Which I'm not familiar with the genre.

Well, you gotta read my book.

No, I'll send you a playlist.

I will walk to the store and give money for it.

No.

You will get a small portion of it.

I will leave it on my bedside table and be like, why am I not reading that?

Why am I just reading a My Asshole and Reddit again tonight?

I will send you a PDF.

That's very kind.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, no,

it's the music of Hong Kong.

Yes.

Sung in Cantonese.

Some of the stars are like Fei Wong.

Well, you'll learn when you all read the book.

People usually know, some people usually know.

Is there anything else, since you have the ear of literally tens of Judge John Hodgman fans

that you'd like people to know about or about this new phase in your life or

a website to go to or a

media account or my website

just says what we have to do Emmy the Great is a former project.

Every now and then I get like worried letters from people being like,

what's happened?

Yeah, no, I just, you all,

you sound great.

The laughter is really getting across on the feed in there.

We usually don't give them notes until a little

bit.

I appreciate that.

Yeah, no, thank you for having me.

Thank you.

Will you come back a little later maybe and sing something?

Sure.

Yeah, okay, cool.

And have a long song, everyone.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn Everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Jesse, we talk about the airing and quashing of beefs.

Does that phrase track?

Do people have beefs with each other in the UK?

Is that a term that you understand for dispute?

Yes, no?

Yes?

Okay, good.

Because we have more beefs to settle, including a beef that has something to do with beef.

And I feel like we need an expert to help us with this.

Yeah, I agree, Judge Hodgman.

Luckily, the two of us happen to know an actual expert on the subject of beef who lives right here in the United Kingdom.

He's the creator of the Beef and Dairy Network, one of the funniest podcasts in any genre, no matter what meat it concerns.

It will be recording live tomorrow here at the London Podcast Festival, but we're lucky to have him here with us right now.

Please welcome our expert witness, Benjamin Partridge.

Benjamin Partridge to the stage, please.

Hello.

Mr.

Benjamin Partridge, thank you for being here.

Before we hear this beef beef,

Can you tell us a little bit more about beef so that we have all the information we need to hear the case properly?

Yeah, for sure.

Let's start with an easy one.

Have you guys heard of a beef?

It's coming through pretty well on the monitors backstage.

Yeah.

It's carrying.

That's a worrying level of beef awareness, but

I have got a little PowerPoint that will help some of these people out with.

During our show?

Well, this is like a section within your show, which kind of becomes my show.

It's like diplomatic waters or an embassy.

Okay, I mean, I assume that we would have to, like,

we can't.

Oh.

Oh, he set it up already.

Here we go.

He hacked into our system, it would seem.

So,

I'm aware you're not here to see my podcast, but I just thought there's a few facts I'd like to get across to people before you can really get into these cases you've got coming up.

Yes, I appreciate that.

The first fact to take away with you, if you learn nothing else from me this evening, it is that in the dictionary, the plural of beef is beeves.

There it is.

So there we go.

Now

it's a disturbing word on its own.

And somehow, when it's pixelated that way, it becomes nauseating.

But also a great name for a baby.

Beeves.

If anyone here is expecting.

Now, I don't know how much people are aware here of how almost any meat in the universe can be categorized into four categories.

And really, there are only actually four meats.

No, I've heard.

Never mind.

So,

are you aware of this?

I always thought that I think there are more than four meats.

No, no, so okay.

Let's explain.

So, in the early 1900s,

there started to be more and more meats discovered.

So, you've got venison, for example.

Right.

What do you do with that?

From a tax perspective, it was a problem, okay?

And

this was

a sort of newsletter that came out back at the time.

It's called the Livestock and Meat Situation.

And by 1950, this problem of how to tax different meats became an actual problem for tax, like the IRS in America and the HRC here.

And that's the only two tax

bodies that I know about.

But there are, you'll have one if you come from another country.

And they needed to know how to tax all these different kinds of meats.

Should there be one tax rate for all meats?

That seems mad.

So, what they did was they came up with a sort of an idea where all meats could be put into three categories.

So it was either beef,

lamb,

or chicken.

Okay?

Then, of course, if you know your history, in the 70s, there was another

edition of this where they realized that really pork is a meat.

Really, pork is a meat.

That had been controversial for some time.

Yeah, they didn't know what to do with it, and they just thought, no, no, no, pork's its own thing.

Things were changing.

Mary Tyler Moore show, et cetera.

Exactly so, yeah.

And so, all meats you can think of can be fitted into this taxonomy of meat.

So, for example, venison goes in beef.

That is, of course, forest beef.

Rabbit, hedgerow pork meat, goat, mounted lamb, goose, violent chicken.

Pheasant, posh chicken, quail, weird chicken.

Now,

I know what some of the sharper ones amongst you are thinking.

Ben,

what about fish?

Right, what about fish?

Hey, Ben.

What about fish?

Here we go.

Now,

this is a live issue, and I've got to say there's no consensus really on how this works.

Let's do this all together on three, but

Ben, what about fish?

One, two, three.

Ben, what about fish?

Well, I'm glad you asked.

Now,

there's no consensus about this, but if we look at what scientists in general are coming to, you can plot most fish onto this.

So, for example, in America you have a tuna called chicken of the sea.

So, you'd think then that obviously tuna goes into chicken.

Wrong, right.

You get tuna steaks, it's beef.

Then, obviously, salmon is pork, prawns are lamb.

It's pretty, once you get into it,

wait, it starts coming that way.

Why is it obvious that salmon is pork?

Sorry?

Why is it obvious that salmon is porn?

Oh, it's right there.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, sorry, I didn't see that.

I was looking somewhere else.

Sorry, it seems the judge isn't getting the feel of it.

It's a feel thing.

Okay, it's a vibe thing.

Salmon vibes pork.

And can I just say, the vibes are pristine.

If you threw a salmon at a grizzly bear, it would catch it in his mouth.

If you threw a pig at a grizzly bear, similar thing.

That's a great point, Ben.

I presume this has been tested.

Now,

final bit of knowledge for you.

Could there ever be a fifth meet?

Well.

No, I couldn't.

I don't know about that.

I mean, back in 1975, we thought there were only three meats.

Now we all agree that

there's no fifth meat.

There's no such thing as.

But no.

Eel.

No.

Eel.

Eel.

Smoked eel.

Eel.

So eel is a kind of aquatic snake, and a snake is a rope of chicken.

Iguana?

I don't actually know that one.

I guess, let's think about it.

Again, it's a feel thing.

I think it's pork.

If you threw it at a bear.

If you threw it at a bear.

I mean,

the problem with if you threw it at the bear thing is like lots of stuff.

It would go a similar thing.

Lots of stuff becomes pork in that way.

Oh, I thought the problem was throwing the llama.

llama?

Oh, I thought it was the llama.

No, iguana is what I said.

Oh, iguana.

Sometimes they eat.

Well, I throw that in.

Get out of here, iguana.

Look, I'd throw anything in a bay.

All right, well, I'll keep thinking about this fifth meat.

There's no such thing as a fifth meat.

I think there has to be a fifth meet.

John,

we have a case.

All right.

Thank you very much, Benjamin Partridge, for your presentation.

I find this very troubling, but you are the expert after all.

And I believe that we have a beef beef to hear right now.

So, Jesse, could you invite the litigants to the stage?

Please welcome to the stage Tim and Bell.

Tim and Belle, please come to the stage.

Tim is a hospice chaplain.

He used to have a podcast called God or Whatever, and Jesse was a guest on it one time.

He's a vegetarian.

Bell is a graphic designer and is currently not a vegetarian.

Interesting.

So, Tim and Bell, what is the podcast that you had or have?

It was a podcast I did in lockdown, because we all did podcasts in lockdown, right?

No, no, some of us did it before lockdown.

Well, that's some of us were actually doing it professionally for some time.

Well, before it was decided that everyone should do it,

and there was a little bit of IP theft involved because I called it God or whatever.

I did this.

I did myself.

Wait a minute.

Hold on.

Why did you start a podcast during lockdown?

You're not an actor who's much more famous than we are.

Oh, but my ego says I am.

No, but you called it God or whatever, which is a reference to the way we swear people in.

Exactly.

And the way I see reality.

And that's very nice.

And you interviewed Jesse.

I did.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's good.

I didn't get an email from you.

You didn't reply.

Is that so?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I messaged you both on Instagram.

Oh, yeah.

I don't check that very often.

And the podcast is done now?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I'm not available anyway.

So, Bell, you say you are not a vegetarian currently, but it says here that you want to be.

Is that correct?

Yep, that's right.

But it also says that you would like to make one exception to your vegetarianism.

Is that correct?

And what would that exception be?

Steak.

Ah, ha.

You want to be a vegetarian, but you want to eat steak.

Yeah.

Beef.

Yeah.

How often would you eat beef?

How many beeves would you have in it?

Like, is this a once-a-year thing on your birthday?

Probably about as much as I do now, which is once every couple of weeks or so.

Okay.

How do you respond to that, Tim?

What is your opinion on that?

I mean, it's never been an issue that Bella eats meat, but if you eat steak, you're not a vegetarian.

You can eat meat,

but you can't be a vegetarian who eats steak.

It's not a vegetarian.

Sorry, sorry.

So she's,

maybe you didn't hear.

She's a vegetarian, but she eats steak.

Well, she isn't.

So I got a text from Belle.

She'd been at a festival in her friend Martin's Garden called Mart Fest.

And she got drunk and decided to be a vegetarian.

Ah.

But still wants to eat steak, but wants the glory of being a vegetarian.

Wait, she was an omnivore who got drunk and decided to not eat meat?

It's 100% supposed to be the other way around.

Describe your conversion experience such as it is.

Well, a lot of my friends.

First of all, what was the festival that you were trying to buzz market that you were at?

I missed it.

It's not a real festival.

It was their friend Martin's festival Mar Fest.

Yeah.

It's just his birthday party.

How often does Marfest happen?

Annually.

Annually, yeah, yeah.

Was it like Burning Man this year?

Did you get rained on and stuck in the mud?

Elon Musk was there.

Musk made it to Marfest.

Very good.

So you were at Marfest.

What's going on at Marfest exactly?

It's just a barbecue, but most of the people there are vegetarians or vegans.

What's being barbecued then?

Well, there's a few meat eaters there, but it becomes a bit of a discussion every year.

And you got a little bit, you got a little bit tipsy.

Yeah.

What were you drinking?

Just Steak juice.

White claw.

You were drinking white claw.

Oh, yeah, white claw, yeah.

Oh.

You can't.

I'm a teetotaler, except for white claw.

So you had

a few too many claws.

And

what moved you to become a vegetarian?

And what does it mean to you to become a vegetarian if you are still eating steak?

Like, leave the steak thing aside.

What will change?

Well, for me, I think I care about the environmental impact of eating meat, so that would be my motivation for it.

But steak's delicious, so

I don't want to give that up.

But you will give up all otherwise.

How often, like how much meat?

I'll ask Tim.

How much meat does she eat?

It's a fair amount.

Yeah.

Would this be a major lifestyle change?

Even if she were to

be a fairly big lifestyle change, even if she kept steak in the totally.

It would be a big lifestyle change, and to be clear, I would really support it, but you just couldn't be called a vegetarian.

That's all.

Like, you eat less meat, I'm really up for it, but you can't have the label of vegetarian, in my opinion.

What would be a great label?

What's your relationship?

We're a boyfriend and girlfriend.

Boyfriend and girlfriend.

So you get to tell her what she eats and how she describes herself.

No.

What would be the appropriate label for

a steakitarian?

Just like n normal.

Just a a low meatitarian?

Yeah.

Flex some people say flexitarian, but they're wankers.

He's a hospital chaplain.

Hospice, hospice now.

Hospice.

Holy cow.

That's different.

They don't mind.

We all know they're assholes.

Danjo and Partridge, do you have an opinion on this as an as an expert on beef and meat in general?

I guess like I don't have a problem with vegetarians because they're some of the the few people that you can rely on not to be eating lamb.

But, you know, what are you giving up?

Pate Wednesdays?

Like, I want to get a better sense of what you're giving up, actually, because it sounds like, oh, yeah, what are some of the favorite foods that you would be giving up?

Chicken wings, lamb kebabs.

Yeah.

Sounds good, doesn't it?

McDonald's, Wendy's.

There's so many good meats.

You know what?

I'm with you.

Tim, you should eat meat.

This is backfired.

Is there a way, Benjamin Partridge, to classify steak as some kind of

seedy vegetable?

Yeah.

Cows are vegetarians.

Say it again.

Cows are vegetarians.

Cows are vegetarians.

Hang on a second.

I really think Bella's on to something here.

I'm a vegetarian.

I follow the vegetarian diet because I only eat vegetarians.

This is pretty good, Tim, you have to admit.

I'm not happy about it.

I'm not happy about it.

Why does it matter to you what she calls yourself, Tim?

It's Stalin Valor.

Earlier, Tim, you used the phrase, I think the phrase was the glory of vegetarians.

That's not a thing.

I don't think that's a thing.

No, that's a thing.

It's in the Bible.

It's in the back somewhere.

Define the glory of vegetarianism for you, Tim.

Well,

I mean, you're right, there is no glory.

That was probably the wrong word.

But

it's a sacrifice, right?

Like, I used to like meat, and then I became a vegetarian, and it was a hard choice that I made.

I mean, I feel like I'm really blowing my own trumpet, but that, yeah, yeah, it's a choice.

And how long have you been a vegetarian?

Like 10 years.

All right.

Yeah.

Well, well, trumpet blown, Tim.

Good job.

Thanks very much.

Is there something you wanted to say?

Tim's a hypocrite.

Whoa.

Yes.

I'll allow it.

He asked me not to bring this up.

I can't believe you're doing this.

He once eats a dog

on the subway.

That eats meat

a meat-eating dog on the subway

um tim is a consumer of cod liver oil because i have arthritis

it's a medical condition i have to take it i'm not happy about it she's got anemia haven't you yeah actually i do

well wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute you take cod liver oil yes

not for pleasure

well i know but but i mean i i don't know.

Can you even categorize that as meat, or would that not be a kind of fifth meat, Benjamin Parker?

Where would that fit into your little rubric?

Cod liver oil, if you will.

No, that's a secretion.

That's a whole different thing.

All right, Tim, then you are merely a secretist.

And as for you, Belle,

I have to say that

there is no particular glory.

Well, I'm not going to say that.

It's wonderful being a vegetarian.

Being a vegetarian is a very thoughtful way to live.

It's not for me.

But I admire those who do eat a vegetarian and a vegan diet and so forth.

And good for you, Tim.

Enjoy your glory and your secretionism.

Thank you.

But, Belle,

I just caught between two points here.

On the one hand,

Belle would be lying.

On the other hand, I don't like Tim saying

that Belle can't be whatever she wants to be.

So I'm going to say this.

I really like your solution, Belle, that you only eat vegetarian animals.

So now lamb is open to you, goats, basically all of them.

She can't eat wolf.

I think you should say, I don't eat meat except for vegetarian animals, and also vegetarians are

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Tim and Bell, let's welcome to the stage Tim and Tamlin.

Tim

and Tamlin are now coming to the stage.

Thank you for Tim and Bell.

Now, you come to us from Vancouver, British Columbia.

Is that so?

That is so.

Look at the incredible mic skills on all of these litigants tonight.

Let me tell you something.

We've toured all over the world, and nowhere but London do people know.

Take the microphone and shove it right in your mouth.

So good job.

Nah, it's too much, Tim.

Tamlin, it says in your complaint that 10 years ago, you made the greatest sandwich ever, but Tim refused to eat it.

That's correct, yes.

Yes.

And this has gone on for 10 years.

Upwards of 10 years.

Upwards of 10 years.

Take me back to the day 10 years ago.

And as we discussed, don't reveal the ingredients of the sandwich.

Right.

That's going to be an incredible surprise for the audience.

It was an ordinary day.

It was an ordinary day in Vancouver, British Columbia.

A little bit rainy.

That's very ordinary.

And we were having lunch.

This was before we had children, so we were independent adults making our own lunches for ourselves.

Tim had made his lunch, he had finished it.

I made the best sandwich I've ever made.

I took a bite and just was overcome.

And I said, oh, Tim, like you have to try this sandwich.

It's the best sandwich ever.

And he responded with,

I got a good mouthfeel

and then refused.

I've got a good mouthfeel.

Yeah.

I had a really good mouthfeel.

Don't keep saying it like it means something.

You refuse to eat the sandwich because you already had, and I quote, a good mouthfeel.

Explain what you're talking about.

A really good mouthfeel.

Yeah,

I have preferences around textures, and I used to be a very picky eater.

I see.

So I really couldn't, nothing mushy, it just wouldn't work for me.

Was this a mushy sandwich?

No, absolutely not.

Let the record show not a mushy sandwich.

Go ahead, Tim.

I guess I don't know the answer if it was or not.

But I had just eaten, I wish I could recall, but it was something that probably had texture, probably a lot of crunch, something soft, and it was good.

There was probably some butter in it, and it just left me with a really nice feeling.

Probably.

Probably.

But

I was in harmonious bliss.

I was in a good state.

You didn't want to introduce anything that would disturb your already existing good mouthfeel.

Mouthfeel, thank you.

Yeah.

That's all.

And so it was just like, you know, just like a little saliva-y, but a little extra, I don't know, you don't remember what you ate, right?

A little aftertaste of mayonnaise or something.

That's what I call a good mouthfeel.

And since then, have you ever tried to make the sandwich again?

I have.

I think that

the issue was really on that day, the stars aligned.

All of the ratios were perfect.

The crunchiness of the lettuce.

I mean.

I happen to have the sandwich here

made to your specifications.

Oh.

And Tim, I'm going to taste this sandwich.

You say this is the most delicious sandwich ever?

It was the most delicious sandwich ever.

And Tim's refusal to eat the sandwich was very disappointing to me.

How does that make you feel?

This was 13 years ago.

And it lives on.

The argument lives on.

And

the nickname she's given me is a batty, catty, scaredy mouth because I wouldn't eat the sandwich.

Because he had a scaredy mouth.

I don't know.

A little scaredy mouth.

Batty, catty, scaredy mouth.

Catalyst for bad things whose mouth fears new flavors, effectively.

Oh, sure, no, I know the dictionary definition.

Sorry.

Catalyst for bad things who avoids new flavors.

Is this a problem in your life otherwise?

It was.

I've grown tremendously, I think.

I think there, yes.

What sort of things was Tim avoiding?

Obviously, mushy.

Yeah, well, I think that it was sort of in general fear of anything that wasn't sort of.

Sorry.

Excuse me.

Sorry, go on.

Very much a

steak man.

So he'd want a steak.

A vegetarian, you mean.

I see.

Yeah.

What sort of foods are you averse to?

Nothing now.

Tamlin.

Was there any intervention?

Did you seek any therapy?

No, I mean, you know, people have food aversions that they have to work through.

I'm not trying to get a sense of how serious it was.

Tamlin's family eats a wonderfully diverse array of foods, and eventually, just through enough exposure,

I grew.

I was willing to experience new things, and now I'll kind of eat anything.

Can you give an example of a thing that you didn't want to have, and then you tried, and now you enjoy it?

There's an eggplant dish that you can get at Dim Sum that's that's it's it looks really mushy and goopy, but when you actually bite it, I mean it is mushy, but it's got all these other shrimps.

Oh, shrimps.

Oh, it's lovely.

Yeah, and now it's a favorite.

Does it have a name?

It does.

It does.

It was a yes or no question.

And yet you have never tried this sandwich in 13 years.

You've never tried to make it for him again?

Well,

I was fearful of his scaredy mouth.

I didn't want to be rejected again.

Right.

You've already been burned once

a non-mushy sandwich.

All right.

I'm going to give it a try.

Shall I give it a try?

I'd love to hear what you think about the sandwich.

Wouldn't you guys love to hear about it?

I mean,

if there's one thing people who listen to podcasts love, it's people eating on microphones.

John, what's in the sandwich?

Well, hang on, let me see if I can detect it first.

I made it to your specifications.

So there's mustard.

Yes.

There's hummus.

Yes.

Which was interesting.

And by the way, mushy.

Just to be fair to say.

Thank you.

Hang on.

You want to get in on us, Tim?

Yeah, I really do.

Do you want me to go to the back end, or can I bite where you bid?

What do you want?

I'll go the back end.

This is more than I expected.

Me too.

Yep, there's mature cheddar.

You want some?

Yeah.

Wow.

Well, I can tell you how closely you approximate it.

Well, do we remember which side we're eating from?

No.

Okay.

Go middle.

Okay, yeah,

we're back at it, folks.

Civilization.

It's like we've learned nothing.

No, I've just, I'm going to keep, I want you both to live.

There was an option.

There was an time when I was going like Tamlin should bring the sandwich in herself.

And then I realized, no, no, no, I would like to live.

I don't know who this person is.

I don't know what kind of mushrooms you're going to slip into this sandwich.

Roofy me with your delicious sandwich.

It's pretty good.

There's pickle,

mature cheddar, crispy lettuce.

Tap lettuce is a little wilty.

Wow.

Tamlin, did you see what happened already here?

Tim already ate it.

You got your way.

Oh, did I win?

Well, was that a trick?

You didn't have to eat the sandwich.

Yay!

But I don't think, obviously, you're not catty, daddy, maddie, that.

Yeah, you got it.

Catty, maddie, scaredy mouse.

Baddie, catty, scaredy mouthy mouse.

Batty, catty, scaredy mouth anymore.

You can't call him that anymore.

So in that sense, you win.

And in this sense, you win too because you got him to taste the sandwich and you got me to taste it too.

But I still have to decide if this is the most delicious sandwich and I gotta tell you

there's something I determine is in here I don't don't know what this is

it's uh let's see it's uh

oh it's um it's something called turkey turkey

I feel like it's like a fifth kind of meat

no no well

you didn't just have turkey up there Benjamin Partridge, you didn't have turkey on your thing.

Turkey is simple.

Turkey is simply robust chicken.

Now, wait, hold on, hold on, hold on, because

we have an expert here.

So far, would you say this is the greatest sandwich ever?

It's a very good sandwich taste.

Okay.

And, Tim, you are wrong to not eat it.

I like it very much, but I've got to be honest with you.

Here's this.

It's not the most delicious sandwich.

Here's my question.

Ben, we're lucky enough to have you here.

Is there anything we could do to take this sandwich from a very good sandwich to the best sandwich ever?

Jesse, Judge John.

Yes.

Litigans.

It's our old friend beef.

Do you want a sausage for my pocket?

Are those rich beef sausages?

Rich.

Rich.

Rich beef sausages.

I'm so glad that you brought

pocket sausage to the show.

Yes, Jesse, will you make sure to handle it with all of your fingers too and

put his pocket sausage into the sandwich and I will eat a 50-50 chance I'll be eating Tim and Tamlin's saliva along

with this and you'll have to hold it for me Jesse because I've got the microphone.

Better?

That makes all the difference.

It's incredible.

Thank you very much, Tim and Tamlin.

Thank you, Ben Partridge, host of the Beef and Dairy Network podcast, the funniest podcast in the world.

Thank you very much, everybody.

There's Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

I'm Judge John Hodgman.

That's our show.

Thank you so much for coming to the London Podcast Festival.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman.

This episode was recorded at King's Place in London for the London Podcast Festival.

Our producers were Daniel Taylor and Jennifer Marmer.

Marie Bardi Salinas runs our social media.

Congratulations on your marriage.

And don't miss us on tour in October and November.

Go to vanfreaksroadshow.com for tickets.

And if you live in one of the cities we're visiting, send us your disputes.

There's a link right there at vanfreaksroadshow.com.

That's vanfreaksroadshow.com.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Blimey.

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