Per-roll Hearing

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, per-roll hearing.

Jesse brings the case against her dad, Jim.

They get together once a week to play Settlers of Catan.

When the dice rolls start to favor Jesse, Jim accuses her of not rolling sufficiently.

He then makes her use what he calls the cup of shame to ensure that the dice are are properly rolled.

She says there's nothing suspect about how she rolls dice.

The cup of shame is unnecessary.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Let me understand you.

Every Friday night, you and your boys are shooting crap, right?

And every Friday night, your pal Snotboogie, he'd wait until there was cash in the ground, and then he'd grab the money and run away?

I got to ask you, if every time Snotboogie would grab the money and run away, why'd you even let him in the game?

Got to.

This is America.

Bailiff Jesse Thornton, swear them in.

Jesse and Jim, please rise, raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

Yes.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he shaves dice for Yahtze?

I've never played Yahtzee, so I agree.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Keep standing, you two.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, hello.

Hello.

First of all, you killed it in your line read.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

I'm a naturalistic actor.

Sag eligible.

Solidarity forever.

That's right.

We are on strike still.

Second of all, I will say, Wesley Stace, the wonderful musician, singer, songwriter, taught me, and he and his wife, actually Abby, and Whole Human Being in her own right, taught me how to play Yahtzee recently.

And that's a heck of a game, Yahtzee.

That's all I have to say about that.

But in the meantime, Jesse and Jim, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favorites.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

I saw dad Jim nodding, and he's nodding now still.

He thinks he's got it.

I bet he does.

This is a real dad quote.

Can I offer, I think it's two, one of two.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm asking you to ask you.

No, you can't offer one of two.

You lose automatically.

No, no, no.

I like that you have two, and I want you to hold on to those guesses because I'm going to ask Jesse first because I think you're locked in.

I think you're dialed in.

Jesse, are you dialed in?

Do you know what the piece of culture I was referencing where Jesse and I performed for you?

I think I have a guess, a general guess.

General guess.

I'm going to guess some sort of like Grease-style

gang movie from like the 50s or 60s.

Grease-style gang movie from the 50s or 60s.

I love it.

Great guess.

Terrific guess.

Now, Jim, it's your time to shine.

What's your...

I'm going to give you two guesses because this is America.

Thank you.

Even though you're cheating.

What is the Shawshank Redemption?

What is...

You're answering the form of a question.

It's a different show, but thank you.

What is the Shawshank Red Red Red Red Red?

I thought he said one is the Shawshank Redemption.

Oh,

I thought he was doing a Jeopardy style.

Okay, one is Shawshank Redemption.

All right, and second guess?

Oh, man.

The name escapes me, but it's that Broadway, Romeo, and Juliet modern-day thing with the gang warfare, but real famous Broadway show.

What is it, musical or whatever?

Westside Story.

Westside Story.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

All right.

Show me Westside Story.

Damn.

Show me Shawshank.

All right.

All comes down to you, Jesse.

1950s Greece-style gang

movie,

name of which you do not know.

A genre.

Show me 1950s Greece style.

Oh, all guesses are wrong.

Jim, I really thought you got this one because you're right in the pocket for having maybe.

Oh, now you want to guess again?

No.

I'm curious to hear the answer, though.

Season one.

Episode one, first scene of The Wire.

The television show The Wire.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

The television show The Wire, created by David Simon and Ed Burns.

Now look.

Epic opening scene.

Defined the entire show in one bit of dialogue between the actor Dominic West and Kamal Bostik Smith, played the friend of Snot Boogie, credited as friend of Snot Boogie.

Incredible TV show, and I'll tell you something.

That's all I'm going to say, because I'm a member of SAG AFTRA.

I'm also a member of WGA.

I am not supposed to be promoting television shows that are produced by strut companies, even though this show is undeniably a masterpiece and it has long been out of production.

I'm just saying that it exists.

And I'm also saying that Dominic West, Kamal Bostik Smith,

the story by David Simon and Ed Burns, the teleplay by David Simon and directed by Clark Johnson, these are all human beings.

Human beings made this

masterpiece of narrative drama.

Human beings did it.

I don't think, I don't, I've looked I've been messing around with all the AIs.

I know what's out there, Jesse Thorne.

I've been messing around with them.

The walkabouts, the chat DDTs or whatever.

I've been messing with all of them.

Chat DDTs.

The subject of chat silent spring.

I dare.

I dare anyone to say to me with a straight face

that an AI could either write or perform, would come at this, because you know, writing, Jesse and Jim, writing is about making choices.

How to start a story is a very, very

subtle choice.

And I don't think,

I'm going to say it.

I'm not a Luddite.

I think these tools are here to stay, sadly, but they're

never going to start a story this way.

You've got to.

This is America.

Incredible piece of dialogue.

And that's what we're fighting for in this strike.

When you're hearing this, I bet you the strike is still going on.

And well, you know, go to WGA, go to sagafterstrike.org, find out how you can support the strike.

You don't have to be a member in order to pick it.

And there are places, a lot of places where pickets are happening.

And Entertainment Community.org is a place where, if you have the means, you can support not just the strikers, but

the other employees, the crew, the drivers, the caterers, the hair and makeup people, all the people who are out of work because of this work stoppage.

They're standing with us in solidarity and they could use your help because we're all out of work and for good reason.

Not just to get a fair pay for incredible work, but also,

just to remind people, humans make stuff.

Hey, that's all I have to say about that.

I'm getting down off my soapbox, getting up on my bench.

Jesse and Jim, here we are.

You are humans, correct?

As far as I know.

Right?

Yes.

Okay.

Give me a little pause there, Jim.

Seemed to be computing that for a minute.

Deep question.

Jesse Thorne, we had them do the CAPTCHA before they got into the studio there in Kansas City.

We gave them one of those tests from Blade Runner.

Voigt Kampf test is what it's called.

Voigt Kampf test.

That's the kind of nerd I am.

Blade Runner nerd all day long.

But we're not talking about Blade Runner.

And we're not talking about the wire.

We're talking about a different style of nerdery.

Settlers of Catan.

Who seeks justice in this court?

Who brings this case to me?

I do, Your Honor.

Jesse, what is the nature of your complaint against your father, Jim?

So several years ago during the start of the COVID pandemic, I had to come home from college because the world had completely shut down.

Remember?

Yes.

And on the night before lockdown started in Kansas City, I went to Target and I bought Settlers of Catan to try to occupy ourselves, even though my parents were both working and I was in school still online.

So we started playing Catan pretty much every night during the lockdown until I graduated and then I moved to Delaware.

And I stayed on the East Coast for about three years.

And we continued playing Catan throughout that time, either online, like over Zoom, or when I came home.

And now that I'm back in Kansas City for graduate school, I go over to their house to play about once a week.

So that sounds like a lovely solace in a terrifying time.

But

it was not all peaceful Catanning because

what did your father do that was so wrong that we're in court now today?

Yeah, that's correct.

So

I think that I tend to win the Catan game slightly more than Daw does.

We both win a lot, but I think I'm slightly ahead.

And whenever I start getting dice rolls that like they're a little bit too good, he starts saying that I'm not rolling properly or

the right amount.

And then we have to use the cup of shame,

which it used to be a plastic cup that had a like a red label tape to it.

But then I think when I moved out to the East Coast, my mom threw it away or something.

So now we have the second cup of shame, which is an old coffee cup with stains, coffee stains in it.

And it has a post-it note with a drawing of a scary clown on it.

And

it's labeled cup oh shame and then bad clown.

Let the record show that Jim is holding this cup of shame up to his camera there.

The studios of KCU are in Kansas City.

And let the record show that I would like to turn off his camera.

If I see that thing again, I'm going to be too scared to continue.

We do have photos, of course, which you can see at the showpage at maximumfun.org, as well as our Instagram account at judgejohodgman on Instagram.

And we'll look at that evidence in a moment shortly.

But first, I have to say, the reason I did the cultural reference that I did because it describes a dice game that someone gets murdered over a dice game in The Wire season one, episode one.

Now, I've worked very hard in my life to avoid information about the rules of settlers of Catan.

I've never played it, and I've worked very hard to avoid information about it.

And you have to understand, I've gone on multiple Jonathan Colton cruises.

So this

I worked hard, but now I have to open the door.

I don't want to know too much about it.

I just need to know how did dice play into it.

Jesse?

So

the dice are sort of supplemental.

Basically, you have to

choose where you put your settlements to get different resources.

Right.

And each hexagon has a number on it.

And if the number of your hexagon is rolled, then you get the resource.

Got it.

What kind of resources are we talking about?

Wheat, bricks, wood, ore, and

sheep.

No podcasts.

No podcasts?

Unfortunately, not.

I'm not sure that that's their main export.

And Jim is maintaining that you are rolling the dice

incorrectly.

Jim, what is your problem with Jesse's dice rolling?

She will have uncanny luck beyond the laws of probability, like rolling five sevens in a row, which is a really good roll.

Or if she's designated to need like 11s and 12s, which are really low probability rolls, she'll roll a ton of those.

So

it defies the laws of nature.

Do you think it's because she has microscopic ultra-control over her synthetic muscles as a replicant that she's able to roll the dice in this way?

That's a good idea.

I hadn't thought about that.

But I know a lot of what human beings do is kind of subconscious.

I don't think she's making morally bad choices, but I think subconsciously when she has the dice in her hand, somehow she's throwing them to get this, to get these rolls.

Kind of like somebody who's hot in craps.

So you're saying when someone hits a hot streak in craps,

they're actually controlling the dice unconsciously.

To a degree.

Sometimes

I've rarely played craps, but I've seen people in Vegas vegas do it and sometimes they hold the dice a certain way

so i can't prove it but there's any reasonable person would suggest that if you roll seven i'm sorry five sevens in a row there's something going on but

it seems a little unlikely highly unlikely but i mean

if she's able to do this why aren't you why are you guys on a podcast why aren't you in

Las Vegas or Atlantic City cleaning up right now?

Yeah, kind of a rain man thing.

Yeah.

Good point.

I noticed that you held up a pair of dice just then.

Yes.

I want you to roll a nine.

Go ahead and do it.

Subconsciously, do what I tell you.

That went under the table, didn't it?

Yeah.

Close.

10, which is yeah, that's pretty cool.

That's pretty good.

I mean, given that we're on a teleconferencing software, if I were in the room, I bet you I could have gotten you to do it.

Jesse, did you bring any dice to

this podcast fight?

I did not.

The Catan box lives at my parents' house with all of the associated accroutements.

So the dice were in the Catan box.

I would like to lodge an objection very quickly.

11 is not an exceptionally unlikely number to roll.

12 is an exceptionally unlikely number to roll.

How many dice are you rolling?

Two.

And there are six-sided dice.

Yes.

Traditional six-sided dice.

So So there are relatively many ways to get to 11.

6 and 5, 5 and 6, 8 and 3, 7 and 4, 11 and 0.

Exactly.

So it's not a particularly unlikely number to roll.

Yeah, apparently the most likely...

I never knew this.

I always just thought it was a one in...

Well, I guess not because it's two dice, right?

Because each one is one in six chance of getting a particular number.

So, all right, it's been a long time since I was in statistics class, but apparently seven is the most likely thing to roll with two six-sided dice.

You're going to get that about 16.67% of the time.

11, 5.56% of the time.

So, all right.

And, but I mean, but seven is very likely to get.

How many times did she get seven in a row, Jim?

If memory serves, I think one time she got five in a row.

Five sevens in a row.

Yeah, extraordinary.

Five times in a row, according to my hasty phone calculator calculation, is

0.002%

chance of that happening.

And yes, correct.

I mean, do you dispute that it happened?

I think we don't have a very firm record.

I think that Daw tends to exaggerate slightly.

Maybe I'll get, I don't know, three sevens in a row and he'll start going, oh, that was five sevens in a row.

You rolled so many sevens.

And it's like, I don't think I rolled that many.

I don't think we have a clear record.

Jesse, are you accusing your father of being a liar or being incapable of counting to five?

I'm accusing him of slight hyperbole, you know, very, very slight.

He's a storyteller.

He likes to tell stories and exaggerate things a little bit.

No,

dads have never exaggerated a story in the history of daddy, I'm sorry to say.

I've always looked for the best in Jesse, so I may have rounded up slightly, but

there are times where her roles are unnatural.

I like that everyone present is using lie so carefully, like they're the Washington Post or New York Times writing about the former president.

We do not know what is in his heart.

I think also, I think maybe when I start getting good roles, Daw gets a little bit upset that I'm once again the master of Catan.

And

so, you know, his pride makes him exaggerate slightly.

So, would you say that you are a better player overall at Settlers of Catan than your father is?

And he's trying to blame it on rotten luck with the dice on his part.

So, I feel a little bit bad saying this, but I would say yes.

But I only say that because he can beat me in pretty much any other game.

Right.

Like, what kind of game, Jim, do you

dominate in?

Mastermind?

We, you know,

Parcheezy?

No, you know, I'm not a big game board person by nature.

I rarely play things of this sort.

Mind games?

Yeah, definitely a lot of those.

Pictionary, that old, remember that old game.

Sometimes we would play.

There's standing up in that game for me.

Yes.

We would play Horrified, which is more of a cooperative game.

And Jesse is an excellent gamer for sure.

She's got a great mind for this.

And she played D ⁇ D for many, many years.

So she's really good with detail.

And I dare say, dice rolling, right?

Sadly.

It should be called D and D and D, Dungeons and Dragons and dice, because dice are really a big part of that game, right, Jesse?

Yes, they are.

I actually have a whole box of dice.

That's where the dice for the Catan game actually came from, was my box.

These are your personal dice?

They are, but they were chosen randomly.

They were chosen randomly.

Sure.

Interesting.

You know who brings their own dice?

It's not people people who don't cheat.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

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Let me ask you a question.

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It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

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And whether it's griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware, I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be getting back to my beloved made-in entree bowls.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

So you're only using your proprietary special D ⁇ D dice that you got at Kansas City's premier strategy gaming shop, the old cheat shop or whatever.

Do you acknowledge you've had some lucky streaks, though?

I mean, maybe not five sevens in a row, but would you acknowledge you've had some luck with the dice?

I would acknowledge that.

There are some times when it seems like I do get really, really good roles.

But on the contrary, there are also times when Daw gets really, really good roles.

And it kind of just depends on the game.

And

but I think I had played Katan a few times before

we started playing during the pandemic, and I don't think that Daw had.

And for a while during the pandemic, I was keeping a score sheet.

And I was quantifiably ahead by

something like 10 games, I think.

Why do you think your father is

bad at Settlers of Tatom compared to you?

What does he do wrong in the game that you do right?

First of all, I don't think he's bad.

He's very smart.

He's a very good player.

Look, I know, look, but you have an edge.

You're acknowledging that you have an edge.

You kept a log to wave in his face to prove that you were better than him.

I think.

Yeah, we're not questioning his personhood.

We're not saying he's some sort of bad clown.

We know he's a good clown.

There are two primary things that I would say.

First of all, I think that he is too reliant on development cards.

Yeah.

That makes sense.

So the way that the game works is that you collect different resources and then you can spend the resources to do different things.

And the goal is to build settlements or cities.

But instead of doing that, when he gets the cards to get a development card, so to get a development card, you have to have a wheat, a sheep, and an oar.

And instead of saving his resources to build a city later or a settlement later he will spend those on a development card

jesse thorne you know what i think i'm probably gonna know how to play settlers katan when this is all done

Yeah, I'm worried.

I think it's going to happen.

What's the second thing that he does wrong that you do right or whatever?

So the second one is kind of our own mod slightly because it's a card that isn't in the original game set.

Where'd that come from?

Your special personal pack of Magic the Gathering cards or something?

The secret card that you introduced?

Da Luz's card?

For my graduation, my parents got me an expansion of Settlers of Catan.

I can't remember right now which one it was because we don't, you know, it's a good expansion, but I think we really prefer the traditional one.

I don't want to see fights on the Reddit about whether this is a good expansion or not.

So let's not even mention it.

Okay.

You got an expansion pack and you added a wild card, which is what?

It's the Harborm Master card.

So this card, when you get three different harbors.

Season two of Settlers of Catan.

That's a deep cut wire joke.

That's a good commercial.

A deep cut wire joke that I truly appreciate.

That's incredible.

That was incredible.

That was a true level up.

So with the Harbor Master card, when you get three harbors, when you build a house on three different harbors, then you get an additional two points, unless someone else ends up building houses on more harbors than you do.

And I don't think that Da has succeeded in getting the Harbor Master card in.

Harbor Master, two points.

I got it.

I'm getting it all down.

Got it.

So he doesn't know how to play the Harbor Master card correctly.

He doesn't.

He develops things wrong.

Got it.

Got it.

Got it.

Jim, do you accept that these are weaknesses in your game that you might be trying to cover up

with this accusation that

Jesse is an unfair roller?

Possibly.

She is an excellent player for sure, strategy-wise, and she makes some good points about my weaknesses.

Over time, as we began to play and I understood the rules, I began to catch up with her.

But then

right about that time, her incredible, uncanny, lucky streak kicked in.

Hence, the cup of shame.

All right, now the cup of shame.

So what we're talking about here is

Is the Cup of Shame part of Settlers of Catan?

Is that part of the game?

No.

That's a mod of your own, Jim?

Yes.

Let's take a look at it.

I'm going to go to the evidence.

And again, these images are available at the show page and on our Instagram account.

Okay, the Cup of Shame.

This is the new Cup of Shame.

The original Cup of Shame was retired.

The new Cup of Shame is an old paper coffee cup with a frankly terrifying drawing of a clown on it.

And clowns are terrifying when they're drawn well.

This one looks like...

This one looks like a drawing that was found on the floor of an abandoned cabin.

You know, it's terrifying.

It's some of my best work.

I did that, by the way.

Jim, I have a photo of it in front of me here.

You don't have to keep holding that up to the camera because I don't need to see two of these things.

Thank you.

And

what is the scrawl?

I can't even call it writing.

The scrawl?

The scrawled letters?

What do they spell on this cup of shame?

From the looker's perspective, to the left, it says cup, oh, shame.

To the right of it, it says says bad clown exclamation point

and then some scribbles and there underneath there it says mr.

Katan you could have saved her I gave you all the clues

speaking of clowns I see there is a there is a stuffed clown like a toy stuffed clown behind it, which seems to be the model for this illustration.

And this clown, this clown, sir, has fangs, does it not?

Yes.

What is this terrifying clown that you have in your home?

Very quick backstory.

A great book, A Prayer for Owen Meanie by John Irving.

In this story, this family got in the habit of hiding a stuffed armadillo, I think, in various places of the house.

So when people would open the door, it'd scare them.

Yes?

So I adapted that idea to this clown.

So I would hide it around the house.

And when Jesse would open her bedroom door, it would fall on her.

She'd go to the refrigerator.

The clown would be in there.

Basically, kind of like a super ego.

You never knew when Blinky the Clown would appear, so it kept you on your toes.

This is

Blinky the Clown?

Yes.

Okay, continue what you were about to say.

I didn't mean to interrupt you.

No, no, no.

That's about it.

So we, for many years, when Jesse was very young, we would hide it around the house, and it would surprise you every so often.

And it kind of develop your your moral compass because you never knew

I'm sure that there I'm sure that was a justification you used for pranking your own child developed she needed to develop a growth mindset

she needed a good lucky feeling as Jack Handy once said question for you sir the fangs on this clown Were they there when you bought it from the thrift store or did you add them yourself?

Is that your mod?

Jesse can speak to that one.

Jesse?

Yes, that's actually my addition.

A few years ago for Father's Day, I sent Blinky to a stuffed animal hospital

and paid, I think, 50 bucks to have,

I think, okay, so the fangs were added.

He has scary eyebrows now.

There was a part where he was like a little bit threadbare and they recovered that.

They made him a little cloth knife.

that is sewn to his hand.

I see that now.

Yes.

And I'm not sure if it's captured in the picture, but he had a hole in his cheek and they stitched it up in red so it's like a scary scar.

A stuffed animal hospital?

Yes, I followed them

on Tumblr and they were, and so that's where I got the idea.

And they did all this for 50 bucks?

I think it was about 50 bucks.

Or was that just your copay?

Unfortunately, I don't have stuffed animal insurance, but I think it was split between Ma and I.

So you're obviously, I mean, maybe this is how you worked through your trauma of being scared by your dad as a child, or else you actually kind of found this joke funny.

Oh, yes, very much so.

I think it probably started when I was maybe in middle school or high school.

So I wasn't super, super young.

And it was a back and forth thing.

You know, I would, I think the rules generally were that I would find Blinky, and then I would hide Blinky somewhere, and then Dahl would find Blinky, and then he would hide Blinky somewhere.

And it went back and forth until eventually my mom would, Blinky would jump out at my mom when she wasn't expecting it and she'd yell very loudly and ban blinky for a while yeah then she'd set it on fire and leave for two weeks exactly exactly i remember one time because we also

for a while we had a we had a um a rubber halloween rat that we hid as well for a while it was blinky and the rat and i think that ma took the rat away after she tried to pour herself some cereal and the rat came out of the cereal box jesse i think if we commit if i think when you know i i can work on writing projects, but I can't sell them currently.

But, you know, if you open our notebook of Incredible IP, just make a note of Blinky and the Rat, Jesse Thorne.

Okay.

Okay.

I'm writing that down here and mailing it to myself.

Right.

Mail it to litigant Jesse too because she's going to get in on this.

She came up with it.

Thank you.

I've also noted Clown 2, Blinky's Revenge.

I'll allow it for sure.

We've got to start thinking of the franchise now.

So tell me about a time when you got your dad really good with Blinky.

There has been a lot of times and still, you know, whenever I, like when I dog sat for my parents a while ago, I hid Blinky around the house for dawd to find when he came home.

The most memorable one, this was actually my dad getting me, but he put, there's like, in their house, there's this grate on the floor that, you know, it's a vent, a vent grate.

Sure, heating, heating.

Yeah, yeah.

But you can actually take off the grate.

It's a wooden grate.

You can pull it up.

And there's a small shelf there.

And one time I hadn't found Blinky for like days and days.

And I was like, where'd he go?

And I kept asking Da, and he would, you know, do his little, like, oh, you'll find out, that sort of thing.

And eventually I realized that Blinky was under the heating grate.

He was in the heating vent.

Yeah.

Well, they all float down there.

Exactly.

So that was the most, I remember I was very, very impressed by that one.

Mr.

Jesse, you could have found him.

I gave you all the clues.

Said your dad.

So Blinky is on this cup of shame as a reminder to not cheat.

And obviously, you've been rolling the dice by hand.

The cup, you put the dice in there to roll Yahtzee style because you feel it prevents...

It's like making a pickpocket wear gloves.

It's impossible for them to ply their deceitful craft.

Well said.

Perfect.

Thank you.

I do know how to say some words sometimes.

Sometimes.

How do you feel about the cup of shame?

Being asked to use the cup of shame?

Well, my main objection is, first of all, the insult to my character and the implication that I am not winning Catan properly.

But also, it does tend to add some time.

And when we get into the later stages of a game of Catan, it gets very, you know, fast-paced and we're rolling really quickly.

And if you have to, every time, grab the cup of shame from where the other person put it, put the dice in, rattle it around, and then turn it upside down, take the cup away, and then see the numbers.

That adds a little bit of time that

really slows down the pace of the game, in my opinion.

Aaron Trevor Brewer.

And is there a shame component?

Do you feel shamed by the cup of shame?

Not really shamed, but I do feel a little bit affronted at the implication that

I am somehow cheating with the dice, even if only subconsciously.

Jim, you want to respond to that?

Yeah, I'll allow it.

Thanks.

If I have any regrets,

I named it Cup of Shame because probably everybody has heard of the cone of shame that dogs have to wear around their head when they have surgery.

If I were to rename it, I would call this the Cup of Integrity or the Grail because it gives people an opportunity to do the right thing, the Grail.

Yeah.

So that was my fault.

That's still pretty affronting, though.

I mean, by implication, you're suggesting that Jesse is not doing the right thing, and this is giving her finally the opportunity to prove that she's not a cheater.

In the evidence that you submitted, there's also a photograph of a toy skeleton.

Can either of you illuminate what I'm looking at here?

So since we've been playing Catan for so long, it's sort of grown different aspects.

Yeah, it's two skeletons, actually.

One fully articulated skeleton looks to be about six inches high, and then it looks like like a

sculpture of a skeleton crawling out of the earth like a reanimated zombie or something.

That's correct.

That one was stolen from my mom's plant decorations.

Uh-huh.

Sure.

So I'm not actually sure where, when they started getting involved, but it was first the skeleton crawling out of the ground.

And

Daws said that that one would bring him good luck and started playing with it.

And then eventually I sort of claimed that one.

And then the other skeleton, skeleton who I believe was a Halloween decoration and then became a Christmas decoration.

Possibly a Valentine's Day decoration.

Well after he was a Halloween decoration then we started putting him on the Christmas tree as well.

Oh sure, sure of course.

Yeah.

So

as it stands, the skeleton crawling out of the ground is sort of my good luck on my side and the fully articulated skeleton is Daws' good luck skeleton.

So what I'm hearing, tell me if I'm correct, Jesse.

Your father quite naturally brought a good luck skeleton to your game of Settlers of Catan

from a plant,

as one would expect.

And as he got luckier and luckier from this good luck skeleton crawling out of the dining room table,

you then annexed that skeleton?

No, I would object to that retelling.

I think for a while it was whoever won the game of Catan got the skeleton the next time.

Ah, I I see.

Do both of you believe in good luck.

Let the record show they're both thinking very carefully about how they're going to answer.

Each has tilted their head 30 degrees.

I'm going to try to be brief on this one.

Scientifically, I don't know.

All right, I'll come back in half an hour and listen.

Scientifically, I do not believe in it.

And yet, I had an old friend who was literally like the pit boss who would watch craps table stuff, and he would swear that sometimes people defied the odds and they would get hot.

So here's my toaster analogy.

I have to admit, you know, I don't know how the inner workings of a toaster, but I do know when you push the thing down, wait for a while, done toast comes up.

So something seems to be happening.

And

the toaster says, toast is done, right?

Sometimes.

That's a very specific joke for a very specific listener.

That's all I have to say.

But you can't explain.

I can't explain the causal mechanism, but I have seen things that defy the odds, like one in thousands.

So I don't know if luck actually happens.

For the skeletons, it's placebo effect for me.

I know it just brings out the best in me as a Catan player to have being surrounded by a skeletor, the other skeleton.

So you understand this coffee cup essentially to be a cooler?

What's a cooler?

A cooler is William H.

Macy, if I remember correctly.

Exactly right.

Great movie.

It's William H.

Macy, and he goes to casino tables and uses his bad luck to tamp down the good luck of people who are winning a lot of money.

And then later in the film,

you see him naked and you're like, whoa, okay.

To that end, I rarely, rarely ever gamble, but I tend to have horrendous luck at any type of gambling, you know, poker machines, blackjack.

Right.

Whereas other people seem to have good luck.

You believe in bad luck, at least.

Jesse, Lidigan, Jesse, you'd like to add something?

I would like to note that I do tend to have good luck with gambling.

I also don't do it very much, but I did win $500 at bingo when I was 11.

Oh, fantastic.

I legally was not allowed to play bingo, so it had to be claimed in my name by my uncle, but it did go to me.

Truly classic uncle behavior.

Jim, was it this former pit boss pal of yours who put the idea in your head that people who are rolling dice at craps get an

unconscious good luck?

That somehow their attitude affects the way that they throw the dice so that they get more consistent rolls or something like that?

Gosh, that's a great question.

I don't understand it for sure, but

it does seem to happen.

It seems to be a real phenomenon.

And I've noticed even when I've watched people playing craps, some of them are very meticulous about how they set it in their hands and how they throw it.

I don't know if it works or not, but the outcome seems to suggest that the odds of this being purely due to chance,

it's hard to fathom.

It's possible, but highly improbable.

In Jesse's case, you mean?

Yes.

Right.

In casinos, typically the house wins.

Definitely.

Typically, any small advantage of a so-called lucky streak gets erased.

Over time.

Over time.

Right.

Now, in bingo halls, nieces typically win.

That's true.

That's true.

It's a small advantage.

Nieces have a small advantage of bingo.

So, Jim, you would acknowledge that lucky streaks, whether they are unconscious

or mystical,

do happen, even in casinos.

That's what you're saying, right?

Yes.

But over time.

Why should Jesse be punished for having a lucky streak?

In general, lucky streaks are very, very short.

Over time, I'm doing the normal curve with my hand.

Over time, lucky streaks dissipate and the house wins.

So we played, God, probably over 100 games, and when her lucky streak continues consistently, it seems that something else is going on aside from just that random, that periodic good luck.

Let me, I just want to verify something.

I'm getting a vibe.

I just want to verify this.

Are you an only child, Jesse?

I am, yes.

Yeah, that was a big check mark on that one.

Gotcha.

Except for a dog.

What fun?

I know, of course.

What fun, what fun?

Look,

I love family of all shapes and sizes, but as an only child, I'm really feeling the fun of a three-person household.

Oh, yes, very much so.

It's really, it's a special vibe.

It's a vibe.

Let's just say it's a vibe.

It's no more special than any other, but it's definitely a vibe.

It's making me feel very nostalgic myself, which is a toxic impulse, so I'll move on.

And for the record, I do not live with my parents anymore.

I do live across town.

No, I understand.

What's the best barbecue sauce in Kansas City, Arthur Bryant's or Jack Stack's?

I don't like barbecue.

That's my secret.

That's my secret.

I'm a bad Kansas City.

That's your cup of shame?

That's my real shame.

You know, I'm not ashamed by the cup of shame because I know I'm in the right, but I am ashamed by the fact that I'm a bit shamed.

People like what they like.

But I'm a born-and-bred Kansas City, and I've never liked barbecue sauce.

I can't do it.

Jim,

Jack Stack or Arthur Bryant for barbecue sauce or altogether experience.

Your Honor, it's amazing you should know that.

I'm a vegetarian.

I've never eaten barbecue here.

Sorry about that.

No, no,

don't apologize to me.

Thank you for saving the planet.

But in the meantime, are either of you particularly competitive?

I think that I tend to be sort of competitive at times.

How do you think that affects this dispute?

Well, I think that it, you know, it definitely motivates my desire to win and my pride in winning.

And I think that I...

You know, I recognize that competitiveness is not always good, so I try to limit that to the board game areas of my life because I feel like that is a safe outlet for competitiveness.

Jim, what do you think about Jesse's self-assessment there?

Her competition and the fact that she puts her competitive nature into a cup of shame?

As I have seen her in life, I think she uses her competitive nature in a really positive way.

She did it really well in college, for sure.

She has a great work ethic.

She strived to do the best.

But when it comes to gaming like Katan, her competitiveness has kind of led her to fall over to the dark side.

It's kind of possessed her a little bit, you know, when she does that thing with the dice.

So.

She doesn't have the kind of values that you're looking for in a child, the kind of values that

a child who's being watched by a killer clown, who could be anywhere, has.

So you're there at KCUR, both of you, but in different studios.

Can you please get those dice over to Jesse as quickly as possible, Jim, can someone fly those dice in to Jesse?

I want to take a second.

I feel like I mischaracterized Jim's

child morality scheme when I said it was a killer clown watching over her behavior that could be anywhere.

A killer clown and a rubber rat.

Both.

It's sidekick.

Thank you.

Okay, the cup of shame has been delivered to Jesse.

It has, Jesse, will you confirm that there are two dice in there?

There are indeed.

Okay, and those are the two dice from your personal Dungeons and Dragons set.

Yes, they are, yes.

Two six-sided dice that you that you.

I would presume settlers of Catan,

a complete set comes with dice when you buy it, right?

Yeah, I actually have no idea where the original dice came from.

Weird, right?

Mysterious.

Hmm.

Did you check the heating grate or maybe the dump where you threw them?

All right.

Let me just make sure before we do this, so ideally,

Jesse, if I were to rule in your favor, you would like me to prohibit the use of the cup of shame.

Yes, except I would say when mutually agreed upon.

Why would you mutually agree upon the cup of shame?

If you feel that classic old-fashioned hand rolling is fair, why would you ever use the cup of shame?

If there's like a really, really absurd streak, or for example, if we both keep, sometimes it'll be like we both keep getting sevens or we both keep getting, you know, eights, something like that.

When it's, you know, such an extreme streak and, you know, both of us are on the same streak that it's.

You're asking me to rule in your favor, but you're basically acknowledging your, your father's case.

That there are streaks that are that are so unusual as they need to be tamped down by the mystical cup of shame.

But those are those are rare.

Those are few and far between.

You know, we're not talking every game.

We're talking like every like 10 games.

I see.

And Jim, if I were to rule in your favor,

you asked that I rule to continue using the cup and for either player to be able to call for its use.

How is that even different from what Jesse is saying?

The other thing that I put in my plea was that if someone would have extraordinarily great luck and she won 10 to 3, for example, just blew me out of the water, that we would call it a draw.

It would officially go into the imaginary record book as a draw.

Exactly.

Yeah, because it's a game of skill for sure.

Even though there's a little bit of chance, you know, to do the ethically aspirational thing, any reasonable person would want to win by skill as opposed to incredible luck.

I think I understand.

Jesse, I'm going to give you an opportunity.

Neither of you were able to get the cultural reference, but Jesse, you're a very lucky person.

I'm going to give you the opportunity to win this thing without my even going to my little harbormaster shack

where I would normally consider this case.

Without using the cup of shame,

I want you to roll the dice

five times.

Okay.

If you get a seven three or more times, then you win.

That's the test of a streak right there.

You see what I'm saying?

Yeah, yeah.

If I get a seven three or more times.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Roll one.

I'm going to, and Jesse, unlike your father, I'm going to trust you.

I'm going to trust you to report the results accurately.

All right, I rolled once, and I

got you rolled once already.

I did.

I'm sorry.

Should I start over though because I got an eight, so I don't like that.

You got an eight.

Okay, yeah.

You're rolling five times.

You need to get three sevens.

Okay, roll number two.

I got another eight.

Yeah, go on.

Three.

Got a five.

Uh-huh.

Got a six.

Uh-huh.

And got an 11.

Wow.

11 is very rare.

It is not that rare.

I thought that, but let me tell you this.

You got two eights in a row.

I did.

An eight is usually very, is usually a good roll.

That's usually a good roll.

But

there wasn't a winning streak.

So you don't win automatically.

Although.

Nor do you prove Jim's point that you're some kind of supernatural creature.

So I will now go into my harbor master's hut to consider this evidence, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jim, how are you feeling about your chances?

Yeah, really good, particularly when toward the end of our discussion, Jesse basically confessed.

So I'm happy she did that because this has been therapeutic for her somehow.

And Your Honor, you brought out the best in her.

So I'm very

Jesse, you're giving a Dakembe Matumbo-style finger wag.

What's going on for you right now?

Well, on the contrary, I think that I feel pretty confident because I think I proved pretty well with my five dice rolls of completely random numbers that I do not have some mystical power of rolling dice.

And I think that the judge understands that, you know, a lucky streak is not something that one can be punished for.

Is it possible that you used your mystical powers to not get a bunch of numbers in a row?

I mean, one could certainly assert that, but I think that would be very hard to prove in a court of law.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

i know where this has ended up but no

no you would be wrong we're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing yeah you don't even really know how crypto works The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge John Hodgman, we are headed out on our international tour, the Van Freaks Road Show.

That's right, the Van Freaks Road Show.

Combining our love for international justice with our love for antiques roadshow and our love for the Mitsubishi Delica Japanese-only market adventure van.

The Van Freaks Road Show is what we're calling it.

We even have a URL, VanFreaksroadshow.com, which will take you to all the information we're about to give you right now so that you can go ahead and click those links and get those tickets to Belfast, Northern Ireland, Dublin, Republic of Ireland, Edinburgh, Scotland, London, UK, Copenhagen, Denmark, Lexington, Kentucky, Chicago, Illinois, Madison, Wisconsin.

I'm going to stop saying the states because it's taking too long.

St.

Paul, Austin, Atlanta, Durham, Charlottesville, Washington, D.C., not a state, a district.

Portland, Maine.

Got to say that one because otherwise you're going to go to Portland, Oregon by mistake.

Boston, and of course, our huge end of tour live streaming show from the Murmur Opera House in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

Whoo, Jesse.

This is going to be a good old time.

By the way, we want to make clear, if you're an appraiser on the Antiques Road Show, you get in for free.

Absolutely.

I've already confirmed with Nico Lowry from Swan Auction Galleries in New York that he will be appearing on our New York City show.

Yeah.

What I want from this, someone listening to this must know Fiona Bruce, the host of the UK Antiques Road Show.

Yeah.

Reach out.

Let's make the connection.

I'm not going to say love connection because I'm a happily married man,

but let's make make the connection with Fiona Bruce, the brilliant host of the British version of the Antiques Roadshow.

Because,

come on.

How could she not?

How could she not?

Is there an Irish antiques road show?

Maybe there is.

There's a bunch of different antiques road shows.

We should find out if there's a Danish one.

Yeah, that's a good idea.

We'll look into it.

If you're an appraiser for antiques road show in any of these locations, let us know.

Also, people are asking, are you going to be traveling from town to town in a Mitsubishi delica?

I wish.

But if you have one to loan us.

Yeah, I'm just saying a lot of these places you can't like you can't drive a Mitsubishi delica from Belfast to Edinburgh.

It doesn't work.

But no.

If you.

Well, it depends on how well outfitted the delicate is.

That's true.

If it's because one of those snorkels.

Yeah, exactly.

If you have a Mitsubishi delica and you bring it to one of our shows,

I'm going to make this promise for myself, Jesse.

I will take a picture with you in your van.

Yeah.

I will get in your van.

I'll get in your van.

Yeah, totally.

And if like three people show up.

You don't even have to have candy in there.

Yeah.

If three people show up with delicas, I'm going to get in three vans.

Absolutely.

We love it.

Sequentially, not simultaneously.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If you show up.

Not like four corners or something like that.

You won't believe how many delicas I'm in right now.

If you show up with a Mitsubishi delica and it has been painted to look as though the front is Richard Kine's face, I will get in that van and I will give you $50.

$50 of my dollars.

And we're going to have, when I say Richard Kine, I'm not making promises, but are we going to have special guests like Nico Lowry?

Of course we are.

Other surprise special guests?

Obviously.

Anywhere we can get a fun local person to come up on stage, that's great.

But of course, the fun local people we really want on stage are you.

You and your disputes.

You're going to hear about it at the end of the show, but I'm going to tell you right now, make sure that you, if you live in one of these towns, you look to your left, you look to your right, figure out who in your life is wrong and bring them to the show so you can hash it out on stage on the Van Freaks Road Show.

For all of the information, go to vanfreaksroadshow.com, where you can also submit your disputes via maximumfund.org/slash JJ H O

Belfast, Dublin, Edinburgh, London, Copenhagen, Lexington, Chicago, Madison, St.

Paul, Austin, Atlanta, Durham, Charlottesville, Washington, Portland, Boston, Brooklyn, and streaming across the world, VanFreaksRoadshow.com.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

I was very excited to hear about the Harbormaster card because

you may have noticed that Joel Mann isn't here.

I'm not in Maine at the moment.

I had to come back and be a city mouse in Brooklyn, New York for a little bit.

But back in Maine, there's an ongoing dispute between the harbormaster in a town called Bucks Harbor and the owner of the marina in town, which is, I think, called Bucks Harbor Marina.

And if you ever read a book by Robert McCloskey called One Morning in Maine, the main character visits that marina and they go to get ice cream at the general store.

It's very, very charming, etc.

But of course,

this charming portrayal of Maine hides,

like all literature about Maine, a horrific darkness.

The harbormaster is in

this conflict with the owner of the marina because the owner of the marina

was allowing, well, this is allegedly allowing boats that were too heavy for the guest moorings to moor.

And consequently, during a storm, one of these boats that was too big for its mooring dragged the mooring and banged into a bunch of other boats.

And the harbormaster went and re-inspected all the moorings and asked him to stop doing this and to replace things.

Asking someone to do something in Maine is probably the worst thing you can ever do in Maine.

People get very, very angry about being asked to do something for the good of the community sometimes.

And consequently, he sued the harbormaster and the town and asked for arbitration.

And

it's been a very expensive process as the town has been forced to hire an attorney, and so has the owner of the marina.

And the fight has been in the papers, completely incomprehensible legal details back and forth in the papers for almost a year.

So when the time came for the arbitration, the arbitration that the owner of the marina wanted,

I don't know whether he sensed it wasn't going to go his way or not, but he did not show up.

And instead, he sent a friend with a letter.

saying essentially, I refuse to take part in this farce

and I am closing the marina forever.

His family business that he had been running for

a couple of generations, I think, was now going to be closed.

This is the kind of competition that is no good.

It is corrosive.

It is destructive.

It is personally hurtful as much as anything else.

He said that he sensed that he might not win, so he would ensure that everyone would lose.

And he took his marina and he went home.

That is no good.

Compare that, however, to Yahtzee, a game we were talking about later, a game in which everyone everyone rolls with a cup and everyone gets their own cup.

But the thing about Yahtzee is, you're not actually competing against each other.

You have a list of particular roles that you're trying to get.

Three of a kind, four of a kind, what we call a full house.

That's two of one, three of the other.

And you only have so many numbers of roles to get those particular roles.

And if you don't make them, then you lose that.

turn.

And it's essentially like everyone's playing solitaire, but at the same table.

It's a wonderful game for introverts.

You're just competing against the dice and yourself as you try to create as best a score as you can.

And yes, your score is better than someone else's, for example, but it doesn't even matter that much because when someone else rolls really well, it's actually kind of fun and you kind of root for them.

That's competition that's good.

So, the first thing I want to say, Jesse, is I don't think you should necessarily impugn

your competitive streak.

There's nothing wrong with being competitive in nature,

especially since you're good at winning and beating your dad at Settlers of Catan.

That's fine.

I mean, the only thing you're taking from him is pride, but that's what games are, you know?

And it's not like he never wins.

It's perfectly natural that you should win more because you're a more seasoned player.

And you have these lucky streaks now.

Jim,

I believe you.

I think there's something to what you say

that Jesse gets on these lucky streaks,

not consciously cheating,

but unconsciously, somehow like a replicant, replicating

the motion of the hand or the precise precision of the fingers, such that unconsciously and without intention, her lucky streak continues.

Why do I believe this?

Well, I don't think it's all gobbledygook.

I mean, I don't know a lot about sports, but I do know enough and believe that in competition, attitude means a lot.

You know, when you envision success, you tend to be more likely to achieve it, statistically speaking, whatever the success might be.

I know, for example, that when I picture myself going to the YMCA and moving around,

I am actually more likely to do it.

And when my heart rate gets up to the point that it's uncomfortable, I know for whatever reason, when I picture in my mind the ocean, it calms down and

I'm able to perform at a higher level.

And so I believe that Jessie is lucky.

She won that 500 bucks at bingo when she was 11 years old.

And not to mention the luck she has in having a nice mom and dad who care about each other.

and a terrific dog and a place to come home to to play Catan and destroy her father in it.

That's all incredible luck.

And she believes in that luck.

And in that sense, there is real luck because I think luck does beget luck to a degree.

Whereas you acknowledge, or your mindset is, you're a loser.

You said as much that when you go into a casino, you lose.

Now look, we all know

that there are factors beyond our control.

I'm not saying that you're,

there's no way for you to be like pressing a button on a slot machine in a different way that would cause you to lose than to win.

But I can believe to a degree that there may be something to your,

on its face, kakamame, but perhaps not so kakamame theory,

that when physical activity is involved, like rolling the dice, that maybe attitude does adjust the attitude of the dice as they fly from your hand and hit the felt, as it were.

And I do believe that using a cup would neutralize that advantage to some degree, potentially.

I believe in you.

But

who cares?

Who cares?

Look, both of you are wrong.

There's no way you can use the cup sometimes and not use the cup other times.

The only thing that is fair is to play the game consistently.

Either to use fingers at all times and acknowledge that there might be this microscopic advantage that Jessie might get from time to time because she's on a lucky streak and she has a lucky attitude and you, Jim, have a loser attitude and are so upset about losing that you will create, literally create

a mechanism to break her momentum and cool her down.

The cup of shame.

Should it be called the Grail?

Should it be called the cup of integrity?

Grail is pretty good.

Like, I could make a ruling was like,

let's make it Yahtzee.

Let's everyone, let's each of you have a Grail.

Grail sounds fun.

It feels very katani, katani, whatever you want to say.

But cup of integrity is no better than cup of shame.

Both of those things are shaming.

You are shaming your daughter.

You are breaking her momentum on purpose because you are sick of losing.

And you are breaking her spirit, which is, I know what you don't want to do because you're a loving dad.

But you are putting upon her an element of shame through the face of Blinky and trying to foist it off on Blinky the clown when it's you who's handing her the cup saying, I don't trust you and I want you to start losing, please.

I can't abide it.

Never mind the fact that it's a grody coffee cup.

Look, dice are wonderful.

You know what I mean?

Like, there's a reason that we use dice as divination tools, as tools of luck, of random number generation.

It feels good to roll dice.

You know, it's fun.

And even Yahtzee style, you put them in that thing, go,

that's fun.

Put them in that nasty coffee cup.

It's like,

it's gross.

It doesn't respect the tactile pleasure of rolling dice.

So, as I say,

I could

rule that you both have a grail.

You get some quality, you go down to Ye Old Cheating Shop or whatever the strategy gaming place is.

I bet you they got some good cups there, dice rolling cups,

get some high-quality ones so that it sounds good and it feels good.

I could rule that, but I'm not gonna.

I'm not gonna.

Because when it comes to luck, I'm with Jesse.

I don't want to screw up my luck.

I want to rule with Jesse.

I want her to use, I think that you should trust that your daughter can use her hands to roll dice fairly.

I want you to trust her.

I think it's less fun for you to be put in shame, literally like shoving shame into her hands to hold.

That's your pro.

Losing is your thing to hold, not her thing to hold.

But I will make these additional orders.

First of all, the cup of shame may stay on the table, but it may never be used.

Blinky is always watching.

Second of all,

Jim, go out and get some new dice.

I don't know.

There's something about these dice.

Something weird about what's going on here with these dice.

Start fresh.

Maybe the two of you go out together and you each buy one die, right?

That would be fair.

You each buy one die.

They have to be compatible, if not identical.

They can be a nice color or whatever.

You know what I mean?

Like, I know that they've got lots of fun, fun dice.

Compatible, six-sided dice.

Each one of you buys one, and you put these other ones, and you put them in the heating grate, or bury them somewhere.

Or they can stay on the table in the cup of shame forever.

That's where they're going to go.

They're going to stay there in the cup of shame forever.

That's a new totem for your game.

I'm just trying to clear the air over the land of Catan.

There's a shadow over the land of Catan of mistrust.

And

this reframing of the game is going to re-establish trust.

So

these dice from your past, Jess, you're going to go in the cup of shame.

You're each going to buy separate dice.

And you're going to continue to play.

And in particular, when you play in person,

insofar as that happens,

Jim, I want you to start keeping a record.

I commission you to do a full statistical analysis.

I would be thrilled if you could come back here in, I don't know, a year, six months, 18 months, whatever it is.

Whatever you need.

Talk to your pit boss friend.

He probably knows a statistician.

Figure out how much data you would need to collect and how you could prove to me

that your daughter is actually a magic-using bard who's unconsciously cheating at this because it's so statistically impossible that she would be rolling the way she's rolling.

If you can prove that to me, then we're going to go for the grail.

You know what I mean?

That's your holy grail to catch.

But I need data before I can.

And until data happens,

I'm rolling with Jesse.

You know how you roll with a lucky person.

I'm rolling with Jesse.

I want my luck to soar.

I don't want to drink from your cup of shame, Jim.

Jesse, you keep rolling.

Fives all night long.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jim, how do you feel?

I'm almost speechless with that amazing analysis by the judge.

I will collect data.

That seems very reasonable.

Thank you, Your Honor.

Jesse, how do you feel?

I feel pretty good.

I think that

my honor as a Catan player has been restored, and I'm looking forward to many more games of Catan.

Jesse, Jim, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

Before we dispense Swift Justice, our thanks to Redditor Colin with a K, Colin spelled with a C, of course,

for naming this week's episode Per Roll Hearing.

Join the conversation at the Maximum Fund subreddit.

That's at maximumfund.reddit.com.

That's where we ask for these title suggestions to people on the Reddit have really

been coming through for us.

Per roll hearing.

Evidence and photos from the show posted on our Instagram account at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to follow us there.

Judge John Hodgman created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Chris Pruitt at KCUR in Kansas City, Missouri.

Marie Bardy runs our social media.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

My late father was from Kansas City and pronounced it Missouri, so please don't send me correction emails.

Now, let's get to Swift.

Apparently, it's a big cultural issue there.

We've run into this before.

We've run into this before.

Now, let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Redditor Muad Dipstick says, I think we should just do a new show that's just reading people's Reddit names out loud.

That's a Dune reference, I think.

It's supposed to be like Muadib, but it's Muad Dipstick.

I like it.

I like it.

It's weird that

a Judge John Hodgman listener would have a Dune reference as their Reddit handle, but who knows?

Who knows?

My roommate hates bananas so much, she doesn't want them in the house.

I really like bananas.

Statistically implausible that there would be so many Dune fans among the Judge John Hodgman listenership.

Sorry, John.

I'm going to read that again.

My roommate hates bananas so much, she doesn't want them in the house.

I really like bananas.

My old friend and first roommate in New York City, Adam Sachs, really hates bananas.

He really hates them, and he really hates the smell of them, and he finds them disgusting, and he does not even eat bananas foster.

One of the few desserts that I enjoy.

Not that Adam Sachs and I were living in that basement on 22nd Street cooking up bananas Foster.

Well, who knows?

We might have been.

We might have gotten there if he liked bananas.

If my roommate Adam Sachs said to me,

I really hate bananas bananas and I can't have them around, even if I really liked bananas.

Sometimes it's just part of being a roommate.

Sometimes you eat your bananas outside.

If you hate bananas, you hate them.

People like what they like, people hate what they ate.

And if it's like a real gross thing to them, go eat your bananas outside.

I'm going to say Arthur Bryant's barbecue sauce.

I love Jackstack barbecue very much.

I'm going to say Arthur Bryant's barbecue sauce is better because it has lard in it.

There we go.

Settled that fight.

But what about disputes?

But what about the food in your town?

What's the best food in your town?

We're looking for disputes over which place makes the best burger, which place makes the best burrito in the Mission or in Kansas City, which place makes the best sub or hoagie or hero or wedge.

Wikipedia wants me to believe that the name for a sub sandwich in Boston is Spucky.

Disagree.

Never heard it.

Are there any blimpies still out there?

Sometimes they would call a sub a blimpy.

That's why they had that blimpy chain.

Which is the best blimpy in your town?

Does your roommate order from a chain restaurant when you like the local place?

What's the best pizza in town?

Yorkside in New Haven or Yorkside on York Street in New Haven?

Send us in your local food disputes at maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

And also send us in all of your other disputes, particularly if you're out there in London or Belfast or Dublin or Copenhagen and a whole bunch of other cities.

Right, Jesse?

We want them all.

Maximumfund.org slash JJHO is where to submit them.

And let us know where you are because

we are headed out on the road.

And who knows, we might be coming to where you live and need cases for our live show.

So maximumfund.org/slash JJHO.

I also just want to point out that what you have listened to today is a dispute between a father and a daughter.

The father believes that she rolls dice wrong.

So if you think your dispute might not be right for the podcast,

you're wrong.

It probably is.

Maximumfund.org slash JJHO, big or small, we judge them all.

And in conclusion, Philippe's the French dip is better than Cole's.

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artist-owned shows supported directly by you.