Live from SF Sketchfest

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

This week's episode recorded live at the Sydney Goldstein Theater in San Francisco at SF Sketchfest.

This was the penultimate stop on our Frontier Justice tour of the West, but penultimate just means second to last.

These were all epic shows.

Every single one of these was ultimate, in that they took place in an alternate universe where we wore slightly different costumes.

Let's go to the the stage at the beautiful Sydney Goldstein Theater in my hometown, San Francisco, California.

This time it's mine.

San Francisco, you've come to us desperate for justice.

We're here at the Sydney Goldstein Theater to deliver it.

Let's bring out our first set of litigans.

Please welcome to the stage Nate and Chan.

Nate brings the case against his partner, Chan.

Nate and Chan live together in a building that was once a Masonic lodge.

One of the rooms in their apartment has a strange door that opens onto a dark and mysterious hallway.

Nate wants to investigate the hallway.

Chan wants him to leave that mystery door alone.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Incredible architecture, historic building, oldest fraternity in history, wisdom of the ages.

Bailiff Jesse Thornton, please swear them in.

Nate and Chan, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that the only fraternal organization that would have him was the British novelty

fraternal organization, the Ancient Order of the Frothblowers?

I do.

I do.

Two can make obscure cultural references, John.

Nate and Chan, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I reference as I entered this courtroom?

Nate,

why don't you go first?

Well, it sounds like something

Masonic.

Sounds like something Masonic.

But I have no idea what that would be.

Sure.

So I'm going to go with something that just sounds like our case, which is the book The Secret Garden.

The book The Secret Garden.

I'm writing that down.

Chan, what is your guess?

I don't know.

You have to make a guess.

Oh, no.

And it can't be The Secret Garden.

No.

And nor should it be.

I agree.

I will say, Chan, if you're ever in need of a catchphrase, I don't know.

It's not bad.

It's not a bad option for you.

Just be honest, right?

That's your guess.

You still need to make a guess.

I'm sorry.

Doesn't have to be right.

Just has to be a guess.

I'll give you a hint.

It is something Masonic.

Okay.

And

you live in a former Masonic lodge.

I mean, that's the whole premise of the case.

That's why it's something Masonic.

So maybe, I don't know.

Do you have books in your house?

I have quite a few.

You have quite a few?

What's one of them?

Do you think it's possible that to prepare for this case, I might have waited until you left your home and went into it and found one of your favorite books and picked a quote from it?

Which cookbook would that have been?

I don't know.

What's your favorite cookbook?

This is good.

I like this.

What's your favorite cookbook?

Right now, it's Brown Sugar Kitchen.

Brown Sugar Kitchen.

Mm-hmm.

Terrific.

And I actually made a meal for it today.

Oh, really?

What did you make?

It's fried chicken, homemade sweet mashed potatoes, and homemade baked beans.

Wow.

Well, Chan, guess what?

You're absolutely right.

It is brown sugar kitchen.

No, it's not.

I'm afraid we have to hear the case.

That, of course, I'm surprised you didn't know, is the whole of the five-star review given by Nicholas Robinson on Google Maps

to the Masonic Lodge in the city where you live.

Refuge the lodge.

I won't say the name of the city because I don't want to, because this is about where you live.

I don't want to blow up your spot.

But I can tell you, you do need to check your security in your building because I was able to get in there quite easily.

It was almost as if there was a secret door into your apartment.

Who seeks justice in this court?

I bring the case.

And Nate, what is the nature of the justice you seek?

Does it involve a secret door in your apartment?

Yes.

Well, we recently, you know, a few months ago, moved into what

used to be a Masonic Lodge.

We actually moved into what used to be the attic of a Masonic Lodge.

This all sounds very correct.

It's been converted into a loft apartment.

I didn't see this on Zillow before you did.

Sure.

Sure.

That's skeleton country.

Our

converted Masonic Lodge is, of course, bolstered on one side by an even older Masonic Lodge that no longer is in action and a newer Masonic Lodge that is in action.

Wait a minute, you're saying that your immediate sandwiched in between them.

The immediate neighbor of your building on one side is an active Masonic Lodge, and then on the other side is an even more haunted, derelict Masonic lodge than the one whose attic you live in.

I haven't gotten into that one yet either.

You haven't?

Okay.

And what do you have in your apartment that you have?

Well, it's more.

There is in the back of one of the bedrooms there is a door that you kind of almost miss it if you didn't pay attention because it's painted just the same color as the wall.

There is no handle on this door.

Uh-huh.

And

we became aware of its existence,

but

never had access to getting sight of it except for me thinking I was going to have to buy a crowbar to find out the mystery of this door.

So it had no handle and you could not open it?

No.

I see.

But you became aware.

I love the passive construction of we became aware of its existence.

Like just one day you woke up with that in your mind.

Well, you clearly don't live in the attic of defunct Masonic Lodge.

Obviously, you are excited to live in this attic.

Yes.

Tell me about your fascination with living in derelict Masonic Lodges.

What about it sparks your imagination?

Well, when we first came looking for a place,

I like living in places that are odd

in general.

And so we came there in the first, it was literally the first

apartment we looked at.

It was literally the first Masonic lodge we looked at, Your Honor.

The list list was long, but we didn't even have to see the others.

We've seen a few elks lodges and a moose lodge, but we have standards.

That's right.

I do enjoy HGTV Lodge Hunters.

I like Lodge Hunters International more.

They're all running for something.

They're all running for something.

So if the goal was a place that's

first off, it's a nice large apartment, and also it is certainly one of a kind.

Do you have a pre-existing fascination with the history of the fraternal organization and center of worldwide conspiracy theories known as the Freemasons?

I think you pretty much summed up my previous knowledge of it.

Okay, good.

But you want to, in the tradition of the Freemasons, expand your knowledge.

You are a seeker and a learner, and you want to get into that secret door.

Who wouldn't?

Well,

I would venture to say your partner Chan does not want to go through the door, nor does Chan want you to go through the door.

Chan, what is the nature of

your feelings on this matter?

Well, the evidence that we provided for you, Nate even told me, go get those pictures, and I didn't even feel comfortable doing that.

You did send in some evidence, and you're telling me that just taking the pictures.

It did make me feel uneasy.

It made you feel uneasy.

Let's take a look at the pictures.

Family Feud Style, show me the evidence.

I have not, let the record show, I have not yet turned around, and already the audience has given me a hint to how terrifying this might be.

Let the record show that if anyone doubted the authenticity of this photograph as coming from a Judge John Hodgman listener, the giant bookshelf full of board games.

That's you, Jan.

That's me.

That's you.

Yeah, this is taken in what I call my playroom, my craft room, and sometimes it's known as the laughing room.

Except the laughing room?

Yeah, we have a neighbor down below who laughs very hysterically, very often, and very all throughout the night.

By the way, we only assume it's from down below.

You're saying that

the attic room in the haunted Masonic Lodge that has the secret door in it is plagued by maniacal laughter from unknown sources.

Is that what you're saying?

That's correct, Your Honor.

I can't believe I missed out on this real estate opportunity.

This is my kind of place.

The tale is as old as time.

All right, so yes, I can see how this door, and obviously the photos will all be available online on our Instagram and so forth, but I can see how this door might come to your attention

when you enter the room.

Was that bookshelf full of board games in front of it prior to that?

As though, like Rosemary's baby style, they're trying to keep someone out.

No, that's my personal effects.

That's your, okay.

So, yes, that's a very creepy-looking door.

If I may point out that to the left of the middle of the door, that is a light switch that affects absolutely nothing, at least on our side.

Your side of the spectral divide?

I also noticed that there is

one of those hotel door style

manual locks on top of the door there.

Well, what's that for?

I asked him to install that after

coming home from work one day and he mentions about a nightmare he may or may not have had.

Well,

what was the nightmare that you may or may not have had, Nate?

Well, I was

fallen asleep.

on the couch as is my want.

What is happening inside the nightmare?

You're dreaming of a dream of a dream?

Well, it's complicated.

Not really.

give it a second oh all right so I fell asleep on the couch I have a direct eye line from that couch to this to the secret door to nowhere in the next room

while I'm on the couch I start to have a dream that I am sleeping on that same couch but I wake up from the couch in the dream right to look at the door to see it slowly opening in somebody's head looking in at me

and then it slowly closing again as the head peeks back behind the door.

Then I woke up.

Leave a little campfire up here, Nate.

These are scary tales.

And I woke up from that dream, what I think is a dream, to find myself sleeping on the couch I was sleeping on in the dream, staring at the door.

So you're suggesting that maybe you suspect that maybe it wasn't a dream at all.

I don't think so.

I think it was just very spooky.

Yeah.

But it was certainly, it certainly came with feelings in the middle of the night.

What did the head of the

peering through the door look like?

It was not someone you recognized.

It might look like a podcast.

No, no, it was a

podcast.

You're looking for a good look.

It kind of felt like, and it's hard to describe what it looked like because, you know, dream logic, but it kind of felt like if somebody did that in a David Lynch movie to you.

Right.

Right.

It looked like Bob.

from Twin Peaks, maybe.

Sure.

Any number of characters from Maholland Drive.

So then you decided to put a lock on there to prevent your dream from coming to the future.

By her request.

Well,

you know, I get home from work.

He's sharing this disturbing story.

And I tell him, well, that settles it.

I would like for you to put a lock on it.

But before we got the lock.

So I'm playing in my playroom.

Listen to these two mystery storytellers.

This is fantastic.

You got this.

Go on.

Well.

So I'm playing in my playroom and off the corner may I, the door just seemed different.

Let me ask you, playing in your playroom, were you playing with like a Ouija board?

I actually don't own one of those yet.

Oh, okay.

Interesting.

That's a good suggestion for the holidays.

Up until we bring this case to you, we weren't able to actually open this door.

But this one day, shortly after this dream, it looked different.

No, stop it, Jan.

Stop.

It just looked a little different off the corner of my eye.

No, no.

So,

so I did what any

rational person would do.

No, no,

no.

Shut it down.

Everyone go home.

Take care of your children.

Goodbye.

This is the end of the podcast, forever.

After the nightmare, the door changed appearance or seemed to be.

It looked like it's ajar, and it was.

So this door that you couldn't open, I remember Nate was telling me about two years ago

that he was going to get a crowbar to open the door.

And now you're telling me after he dreamed

that a spooky Bob from Twin Peaks had poked his head out at him, that now it was left ajar.

John, I have a riddle for you.

When is the one door that protects you from the horrors of the spectral realm not the one door that protects you from the horrors of the spectral realm

when it's ajar?

I do, I have an architectural note about this photograph.

Something that is fascinating me here is that this door has no door handle, which we've addressed,

but it does have a ramp, which suggests that they're concerned about mobility impairment in the ghost community.

That's true.

Yeah, that's true.

ADA compliance is very important in the Twilight Realm.

Yeah.

Okay, so then you got the door open.

I believe that we have a photo of that too.

Show me door open.

No.

Oh, no, please.

That was a genuine shriek from the audience.

First of all, nice dragon painting up in the upper right corner of that.

Thank you.

Did you do that yourself, Chan?

That's mine.

That's really nice work.

I really like that.

Charcoal, pencil, what are we talking about there?

Mixed media.

Mixed media, yeah.

I should have known.

Of course.

Sorry about that.

I still got it.

This is a steel door, it looks like to me, or some kind of inside door.

How would you describe it?

Yeah, if you knock on it, it feels like some sort of metal and you can see it, obviously.

Why are you knocking on this fing board?

It's knocked first.

Whoa.

Okay.

But

you can tell it's metal because if you look into a mirror and say its name three times,

and it's got a slide bolt on it on the other side.

On the other side.

There seems to be a certain amount of mutual distrust between you

and the denizens of the dark hallway.

It's as though the other people on the other side have had the same wariness about us.

And then it's also full of caulk and paint, which is fairly mundane, but also fairly creepy.

But I don't see the hallway that's being discussed or the corridor or the passage.

If you have that in your evidence, we did submit it.

All right, show me the passage.

Nope, that's it.

Wow.

That's a close-up of the lock.

We wanted to make sure that was noticed.

But there's another

over here.

But then there is the passage with weird brick walls that I can narrowly slide down if I had the permission to.

Right.

Okay.

So now I see.

Go back to the previous slide for a second so I can get my bearings.

So if you take a left.

You take a left.

So you move.

What you're suggesting happen, Nate,

is that you move those cans of paint and caulk.

I can step over them.

Oh, okay, that's good.

It's even easier.

Yeah.

It's like, they built the passage into Masonic Lodge, but they didn't remove the cans of paint.

I don't want to move somebody else's stuff.

Yeah, I know, especially ghost stuff.

So, okay,

you're saying you can maneuver around those cans of paint

to work your way into a crawl space.

Which, despite with flashlights, we cannot see how it ends or where it ends.

It does look like it turns in another direction.

Saying the words despite flashlights again.

Did you shine a light down that passage?

Yes, and you cannot see where it ends.

Chan.

True story.

Are you just trying to scare me?

All right, let's go back to that next slide.

I'm fascinated by the idea that he could just barely slide through the brick passageway, which sounds to me almost certainly like what they call a self-cask of a Montagado in.

Yeah.

Are there any other photos or can we move on from this nightmare?

Okay.

Oh, that's okay.

That's the lock that I installed afterwards to compete with their lock.

And has it

and has it has it ever been tested?

Like, do you ever see the door rattling and the lock pushed?

Not yet.

Which is why it needs to be explored.

Housekeeping.

Housekeeping.

No, none of that.

Okay.

And is that that's the final slide?

Well, that's a terrifying journey into

a dread nightmare of undeniable cosmic proportions.

You want to go in there?

I think it's a moral imperative that I do.

All right, Immanuel Kant, tell me why it's a moral imperative.

Okay.

First off, I think the very common dream

that over people dream that there's a secret door or something in their house, it has something to do with, I don't know, I'm not sure why.

I'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist, but I know it's a common dream.

We have one.

I think everyone would say that it would be a terrible choice not to be somebody who rarely has a secret door and you actually get to explore it in the real world.

I think that that's very interesting.

It's true.

I've often had the dream that there is a secret door in my home that I discover a lot more square footage in.

What do you think is going to be in there?

Maybe it's like

a cool extra bedroom?

Or maybe you can make an office in there?

The Masonic treasure room.

The Masonic room.

That's been hidden for years.

The Masonic trees.

That would be a treasure room.

There is one person who does not want you to go in there.

Chan, why not?

I think it's mostly my apprehension of I don't know the sturdiness or the safety.

And should he fall through the floor, we're not talking 10 feet.

We're talking a whole level, which could be 20 feet.

What's below you, aside from the maniacal laughing ghost?

I do know

a neighbor below me lives in the ballroom, and I've seen the ballroom, and those are very high ceilings, and that would be a very fall far for him.

At the very least, it would be an awkward moment for you to fall into your neighbor's living room.

But at least the fire department is right across the street if I needed to call EMS.

I mean, honestly,

I would be a little concerned too, Chan, that Nate might get stuck in there, like physically stuck and unable to get out.

Right, and that's also my other concern.

I was showing off at my uncle's house in Vermont that time, and I lowered myself into the laundry chute, and I got stuck in there.

Well, that just sounds irresponsible.

I thought it was a moral imperative, personally.

But I'll be the judge.

Chan, have either of you made inquiries to whoever is responsible for this building to know what this

access space,

to guess at what the space might be?

I'm glad you asked that.

The answer is no, because then there'd be no mystery or friction.

I'm also afraid they'll take it away from us.

We need conflict in our lives, and this is conflict.

You're afraid that they're going to take your apartment away from you or that the door will just disappear?

They'll drywall it up and then we'll never know.

It'll be straight up drywall next time you walk in there and it's gone.

I'm pretty sure through that hallway I'm going to end up finding an entrance into one of the other Masonic lodges to explore them.

It's just then dry walls separating us from them.

It looks to me a little bit, Nate, and I hate to say this, it looked to me to be a little bit just like a storage area, just like an extra space.

That's where they put the paint cans, but that's just,

they just don't want you to know.

Any other conspiracy theories you subscribe to before?

Thanks

we go?

Since we are live streaming throughout the world, I just want to make sure.

Okay.

So, Nate, obviously you would like me to rule that you are allowed to go in there as soon as possible.

Maybe even.

I would have an objection to one of her points, which is I think it's

despite the fact of what it looks like, I think the floor is going to be as safe as any floor in a building.

It's just this very strange-looking area.

So I don't think safety, from my opinion, is really a concern.

Flashlights will not penetrate the darkness

of this corridor into another realm.

Your words, not mine, though I did punch them up.

Thank you.

John, it's completely safe.

The fire department is across the street.

Their alarm goes off.

They have a special alarm for a Monteado-ing.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

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Chan,

would you want me to rule that he's just not allowed to and just live in perpetual curiosity forever?

I've been enjoying the curiosity.

Do you feel that it will be sad if he finds the answer at the end of that tunnel?

Yeah, and then I'll be sad because he'll be sad.

And then we don't have this conflict anymore because I know what would make me sadder

not finding out at all.

I don't know if we have any more secret doors, Your Honor.

We just have the one.

We don't want to lose it.

Nate, aren't you afraid that you will go in there and you will find that it is not anything particularly scary or frightening or interesting or treasure-filled?

I don't think there's a bad solution to this.

Obviously, you know, whatever ideas one might have in their head are

going to be ricked in and devoured by rats.

That's just the one that I just thought of right then.

I just read a dozen more scenarios.

That's more of a result than a solution.

You could step on a a rusty spike and then die of tetanus alone.

Well,

gators, too.

Could be gators.

Could be some of those Bay Area wall gators.

I've seen enough Mr.

Magoo episodes.

I know how that works.

Some kid a few years ago got an alligator as a pet and got tired of it and flushed it into the walls.

True story.

There you go.

True story.

That alligator eats light, eats flashlight light.

Sure.

So it lives on.

Scary.

Nate, what would it be like for you if you went into the wall and you found that it was just a storage closet?

I think that would be, I'd be fine with it because I would, I mean, obviously, it would be way cooler to find other things in other passageways or whatever.

But I'd be fine just knowing the answer.

The thing I would be least happy with is having a secret door that never gets

explored.

That would make you unhappy to have a secret door that never gets explored.

Yeah, I think it would make almost almost everyone unhappy.

Okay, I understand.

Chan, what would be the ideal ruling?

Okay, you can applaud that.

Chan, what would be the ideal ruling that you would offer or ask me to rule in this case?

Obviously, no, but should you decide in his favor, I would like to stipulate that I should be home for this.

Right.

Just in case.

Because if he tries to call me at work, I don't think he's going to reach me if he falls in anywhere.

Do you have any problem with that, Nate?

Or do you need to be

home alone and it has to be 2 a.m.

Well, that would kind of make it spookier, but I assumed she would be there standing a safe distance away from the scary door while I can call back to her my reports on what I found.

I have no problem with doing it safely.

How are you going to equip yourself?

I assume a rope around the waist so when I fall down into the ballroom.

Who's going to belay for you?

That's when the fire department gets called.

What else are you going to get?

Like a little...

That sounds like a good idea, so I can have both hands free.

He can borrow my headlamp.

Oh, do you do some caving?

No, it's mostly for working on engines and sometimes it's dark.

You know, I don't think, Nate, you should be going into this hole.

She should.

Chan should.

She has the practical skills.

Chan,

what do you think about Nate's proposed gear setup?

A rope around his waist and your headlant.

Is there anything else that you, I mean,

let's say that you were in my position and you were advising him.

Let's say you were, I don't know, the manager of a hole exploring company and you were trying to help him out.

What would make you feel better if you were to go in there?

Man, how else can he look ridiculous?

Put on a hard hat.

You can have me wear your coveralls from work.

He can wear my coveralls.

Protect me from nails and such.

What about

work boots?

He can't fit my work boots, so no.

No one can fill your work boots, Jan.

No one.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Does that work too?

Shan, how are you feeling about the chances that you have in this case?

I'm really glad that we had this opportunity to be heard at a very fair platform.

And,

you know, I'll be happy with it either way.

Nate, how are you feeling?

I've been surprised by some rulings before, but

I think I've got the weight of justice and history and

human nature on my side.

Nate, how are we supposed to trust your judgment about anything when I'm looking at your outfit and you can't even decide whether it's hot or cold?

I like your outfit too.

You look great, Nate.

You look great.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about this.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Nate,

there's nothing in there.

There's nothing in there.

It's just a simple storage space.

And the Freemasons are not the center of a worldwide conspiracy.

designed to create a one-world government and control us and all of our thoughts.

They're not lizard people.

Sure, many of them are powerful figures in their community, politicians, world leaders, and so forth, but they're just a simple fraternal order for people to get together and hold swords at each other's throats

and say things about a supreme being that only they can define for themselves and wear interesting aprons and have fun.

It's just, it's nothing is that.

Nothing that you've read about them is true.

And that's just a storage closet now you tried to make up a fun scary story for old judge John Hodgman talking about your nightmare that may not be a nightmare a door that becomes mysteriously ajar and did you scare me yeah you scared me

the two of you are incredible storytellers there's nothing there Nate there's nothing there how does that make you feel

I have a hundred percent confidence that you're gonna Geraldo Rivera this if you go back there there's nothing

that one's for gen X that was for Gen X

It was for Gen X.

Walker Percy, the novelist, wrote, it's better to know than not to know.

And honestly, wrong.

I can think of

many situations in my life where it would have been much better that I never knew.

There is something, I think, beguiling.

about the question mark that is right there in your apartment, staring at you, making you wonder.

Wonderment is something that

is in short supply in this world, because right now, shit is very real.

It's not as wonderful as it might be.

I really do sympathize with Chan's feeling that, like, why would you want to find out the boring, mundane truth about

this thing that is obviously not a secret passage to the secret world government headquarters?

And I am therefore ordering that you move out of that apartment immediately.

You've gotten too close to the truth, and you need to be relocated.

Various graduates of Yale University are waiting outside for you

in a van painted with skulls and bones to take you to a new life

where I guarantee you there will be no surprises.

Nate, there's nothing back there, but you're going in that hole.

Because you're absolutely right.

This is the stuff of dreams.

An apartment that has a secret door, you might find a swimming pool in there.

You might find a cat cafe.

You might find a hotel where you are always the caretaker in your apartment.

You have to go through a secret locked door in your apartment, even though that story you told was very scary, and even though I actually am fairly confident that it's just going to be a bunch of rusty nails and you're going to end up in the hospital.

So

to counteract that bad outcome, I further ordered not only that you go into the hole, but that, Chan, you have to outfit Nate.

And I really appreciated what you said.

How can I make him look as ridiculous as possible?

Look, you're a talented artist.

Start doing some sketches of some of his exploring outfits.

Do you know what I mean?

I want to see like Ghostbusters type stuff times a thousand.

There needs to be a very special branded coveralls.

Some kind of proton pack has got to be a part of this thing, so long as it doesn't get him stuck.

I'm thinking because it could, because there is sticking in there, that he needs to have, like that character in Damon Lindelof's Watchmen,

the two bottles of oil

that he can squirt on himself in case he gets into a tight spot and he needs to get lubricated, needs to lube himself out of there or whatever.

I need you to think, because obviously Nate is a dreamer.

Keep dreaming, Nate.

You're the practical one with the boots and the knowledge and the skills.

I need you to think of every eventuality,

every tight corner, every bad outcome, and create something that not only will help him be safe, but also will make him look dumb.

I'll get him an Indiana Jones hat to top it off.

Sure.

Whatever it is, do you know what I mean?

Like, I urge you to sketch it.

You don't have to submit it to me for your approval.

Whatever you decide is fine, but if you have different options, A or B, I mean, Jesse's a menswear expert, so he probably has a good idea of what will work.

And then once that outfit is all set and ready to go, and you absolutely have to have a rope around your waist, and Chan has to be feeding it to you as you go into the other dimension or whatever,

you need to have a GoPro on your head and film it

for our show.

This could be a live streaming event as well.

You know what I mean?

Not for you, camera A.

Camera C, I love you.

Camera A, you know what you did.

The point is, you're going to go into that hole, you're going to look like a fool, and you're going to have the time of your life.

Does this sound of a gavel?

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Nate and Chan, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing yeah you don't even really know how crypto works the only nfts i'm into are naughty funny things which is what we talk about on my brother my brother and me

we serve it up every monday for you if you're listening and if not we just leave it out back and goes rotten so check it out on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts

all right we're over 70 episodes episodes into our show, Let's Learn Everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom London.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

We're taking a break from the theater, the Sydney Goldstein Theater, that is at San Francisco Sketch Fest.

You have two television programs available for you, John.

I'm not taking a break from the theater.

I was born for the theater.

The musical theater of television, that is.

The television show up here on Hulu?

That is the one I'm talking about.

I play Tom the Weird Dad in Bobby Lopez and Kristen Anderson Lopez's brand new musical romantic comedy up here.

If you haven't watched it yet, please check it out.

It's a real toe-tapper, a real heartwarmer.

It's a lot of fun.

And of course, while you're over at Hulu, why not do a little rewatch of Dick Town?

It's probably been a day or two since you watched that great cartoon that David Reese made and

I helped.

Jesse Thorne, what do you have going on with you in your life, though?

Of course, you can shop from me in the put this on shop at putthisonshop.com or on Instagram at put.this.on.

And there's a really cool interview this week on Bullseye, my NPR interview show, with Delroy Lindo, one of the most wonderful actors in America and just a brilliant,

sincere, powerful dude.

Just a really remarkable man.

I love Del Roy Lindo.

And recently, just a few weeks ago on the podcast, I was like, what's going on with Del Roy Lindo?

I haven't heard from him in a while.

Now I get to hear from him on the great interview show, Bullseye with Jesse Thorne.

Thank you, Jesse, for interviewing Del Roy Lindo.

Let's get back to the Sydney Goldstein Theater.

Please welcome to the stage Julie and John.

Julie

and John.

What's going on with Julie and John?

Julie brings the case against her partner, John.

John made a recording of himself beeping every 20 seconds to help with his stretching routine.

He calls it a stretching app.

Julie says, that's not an app.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Julie, John, you may be seated.

What?

You recorded yourself beeping, John?

Yes, so okay.

Well, so it wasn't like on regular intervals, so it couldn't just be 20 seconds over.

It was 10 seconds and 20, so I had to manually beep.

Whoa, you're explaining the wrong part.

You recorded yourself

saying beep?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, and he's getting his Series C funding right now.

He certainly does have the glasses and the evening shorts

to be.

To be a tech pioneer.

He's an app inventor.

John, do you know what an app is?

Because this sounds to me like a voice memo.

Julie, would you agree?

I would 100% agree.

Thank you for agreeing.

Tell me about John and what's going on in your lives.

So much.

Maybe you've met before.

We have.

You live together.

We do.

We cohabitate with two children.

Cohabitate with two children.

We've made it successfully twice.

Oh, well, well done.

Thank you.

Made it successfully twice.

Yeah.

Me too.

Is that what this show is now?

I don't know.

Relationship status is a hard thing to say.

Three times, baby.

Sorry, mom.

So

John's an exercise.

So John's an exercise guy, and he decided he was going to make this recording to help him with his stretching, which is fine.

But he keeps referring to it as his exercise or stretching app.

And I'm like, words have meaning, and

it's a recording.

There are apps that exist that will beep at you.

And they offer the opportunity to buy things within the app, and then they drain you dry.

Why don't you use one of those?

Well, it was getting that frequency I wanted.

I couldn't find it quick, the 20 seconds, 10 seconds, 20 seconds, 10 seconds.

Right, no, I'm not sure.

So I made my recording into an app icon.

I just touch it.

It's just like a regular app from the iStore.

From the iStore.

Just like a regular app from the iStore.

The initial public offering next month on NASDAQ.

John?

Yes.

Yes.

What is the name of your app?

A six-minute stretch.

They're running buses down Valencia Street to John's house to bring all the tech workers.

Not a very zippy name.

It gets to the point.

Yeah, that's true.

And you've reached your target audience of one.

John, Julie points out that you've made it successfully twice.

Your genetic material is out there.

What do you care about stretching?

It's over.

It's over for you.

It's over for all of us.

Why do you need to be in shape?

I just have poor work ergonomics, so it's nice to be flexible.

What does exercise do for you?

What does this stretching routine do for you?

Does it recenter you?

Is it meditative?

Does it help you feel limber?

And it does show off your legs.

It does help me feel limber, and it definitely makes me feel less stiff.

Yeah.

And I appreciate both those things.

And step by step, what is the stretching routine exactly?

Quad stretch.

For how long?

20 seconds.

Each side.

Each side.

Then one stretch, toe touch.

Right.

But how long for that?

20 seconds.

10 seconds off.

10 seconds.

Okay.

No, I'm having difficulty visiting.

Visualizing.

Can you just do it?

Well, I could.

I could.

Can you just do it for us?

Judge Hodgran.

I want to see this app.

If we were going to make him do it, we would have to have the app installed into this theater.

Well, as it so happens,

the app is free for download

if you know Julie.

John, would you mind doing the routine so we can see the app and process?

I could, yeah.

Okay, why don't you step over here to camera A.

Yeah.

And before we do this, just so you know, Julie, obviously, I find in your favor.

But let's see how it goes

before we let you go, okay?

Let's do it.

Can we hear the end?

Cloud stretch one.

He's doing, so for the listener at home,

he's he's got one hand on the top of his foot, and then he's doing a ridiculous hop that can't be part of the routine

For the listener at home the look on Julie's face of disgust and defeat is priceless

But indeed Julie you are not defeated.

You are victorious.

I find in your favor.

Julie and John, thank you.

Julie, you may leave.

John, you stay there.

Bring out the next litigants.

Let's welcome Rebecca and Cerus.

Rebecca and Cerus to the stage, please.

Rebecca brings the case against her husband Carrus.

Dang it!

Carrouse calls himself a digital native.

Rebecca says that's wrong.

She says digital natives are much younger.

Who's right?

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Ceruz, Rebecca, welcome to the courtroom.

Rebecca, state your case.

He was born in 1982.

But says he was a digital native.

And clearly he is not.

Yes.

And so.

Cerouz.

What does it mean to be a digital native?

I would argue it means growing up with digital technology.

Indeed, I was born in January 1982.

Sure.

Before I got an Apple Macintosh 128K.

Yes,

I was fortunate enough to grow up in a household with this very same Macintosh.

Pardon me.

I'm hearing some voices on your app.

What's going on?

Well, that's announcing the next thing.

Okay, I understand.

Continue.

I was fortunate enough to grow up in a household with the very same Macintosh 128K in 1980.

In my house?

I think we lived in a cross-dimensional time warp.

Through that door that we saw.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Very exciting.

Rebecca, why do you say that Sarouz is not a digital native and why does it matter?

Right.

Well.

First of all, yes, I don't dispute that he had a computer really early.

I don't dispute that he had access to anything early.

But it was really like in his house.

It wasn't the whole culture.

So we have two children as the previous litigants.

Yes, twice.

And just seeing how they interact with technology, it's so different than us.

Yes.

Actually, John, I think I heard your child on the recorder.

Is that true?

Oh, I see.

I think you still have some, your app is still in beta to speak.

The kindest about it.

When you say they interact with technology completely differently, you mean they don't ever write a little program to make a turtle and draw a picture of a sailboat?

Well, exactly.

And they don't know Oregon Trail, and it's not, you know, a touchstone for them because it's just part of their life.

Like today, my daughter, I was driving her home.

She asked me,

how do you spell Abracadabra backwards?

And I said, gosh, I don't know.

She's like, I'll ask Siri.

Like,

that's how they live in a completely digital world.

Exactly.

All of information is at their fingertips.

Exactly.

All 608 episodes of Judge John Hodges

are being played for them.

And she has listened to some.

She has opinions.

Exactly.

John, how much longer does this go on for?

What's that?

Last two stretches.

Last two stretches.

Okay, so Series.

You do it.

John, you got this.

You got this, John.

What's happening?

Okay.

Like they know what an app is, for real.

Sure.

So, you know.

All I've ever wanted myself as a parent is to

raise my children well enough that they could eventually replace me.

That's the job.

Do you you know what I mean?

I mean, I appreciate, Saruse, that you may feel erased by your children who are genuine digital natives

because

you hold on to this status

with the death grip of a dying man,

but it's time to let go eventually.

And whether it's

being the parent of actual human children, or the co-parent with your friend of a podcast in live entertainment, I'm really glad to know that, Jesse, we're apparently no longer necessary because frankly, John's killing it.

And Rebecca made the funniest joke of the night.

Why is it important to you that you be a digital native?

I'm a tech journalist.

I report on this stuff.

I have been involved in, as you mentioned, the Mac 128K.

I have with me a piece of first-hand evidence.

Shouldn't it be more...

Oh, a piece of first-hand evidence.

Yes, sure.

All right, I'll allow it.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

John, John, come back out here and

take a bow.

Friends, the star of the show, John.

Was that the sound that was indicating that the routine was over?

All right, we're going to end our show that way from now on.

Cerus, I apologize.

You came here with a bribe for the dish, so let me see what it is.

I have with me a brochure that came with this original 1984 1208K Macintosh that has been saved in my childhood home

and I framed some years ago, along with an autograph of Steve Wozniak.

Yeah, it says to Cerus from Woz.

From Woz.

Exactly.

That's pretty intense.

In addition, my other evidence is that

you may know from the.

So my hometown is Santa Monica, California, which was fortunate enough to.

It's amazing that he was able to sign in so clearly, given he was surely writing a segue at the time.

It's true.

Yeah.

It's true.

Santa Monica, California, has the world's first BBS bulletin board board system.

This was an archaic, now archaic, 1980s era online message board system that I used in elementary school.

Right.

And I feel like I'm the only person who remembers that it even existed.

Rebecca.

And that's the exact point.

I want to stipulate to what an incredible accomplishment it is to you to have been born and lived in a period of time.

I don't want to take anything away from that.

Right.

And so that's my exact point is that that's amazing.

how special, how unique, how novel, how not part of the entire culture that was.

This BBS story, universally relatable.

Everyone here, not just me and Sarus, would go to the coffee shop, get a copy of Micro Times, look in the back, find some phone numbers, use our mom's computer to dial in, and then hopefully, fingers crossed, get to play an R-rated text game.

When I went to college, a very pale man came to my dorm room and said, do you want the internet?

And I said,

sure.

And he brought a wire in and connected it to what was then my Mac SE.

I had moved on in time.

Time does move on.

And I opened up a BBS,

and there were two conversations happening.

One conversation was a debate over whether or not the character Deckard in Blade Runner was a replicant or not.

And the other conversation was just prose erotica.

And it's exactly the same now.

Carus.

Did you have an answering machine growing up?

Yes.

Right.

Did you have a landline?

Yes.

Did you have a touch tone or even a rotary phone?

I used a rotary phone at my grandparents' time.

Did you have a fax machine?

Yes.

Did you ever see a zine?

Yes.

Yes.

You lived in a special time.

I don't know why.

Your children are creatures of the digital era.

You are a crossover event between the analog and the digital world.

You should be celebrating that.

I know you don't want to.

Yeah.

Because it means you're old.

You're old.

You're 10 years younger than than me.

And you're old.

Look at me, your future.

I find in Rebecca's favor.

Sorry, Sarus.

Rebecca and Carouse, please welcome Sam and Laura.

Sam brings the case against their partner, Laura.

Sam and Laura share a table while they work from home.

Laura likes to tell Sam to look at their pets when the pets do something cute.

Sam would like Laura to stop doing this because it's too distracting.

Judge Osman, you may proceed.

First of all, welcome to the courtroom.

You may be seated.

And if you are more comfortable, you don't have to sit on, you know, I also choose not to sit on stools

because I'm going to fall over.

Sam and Laura, welcome.

What do you think Cerise should call himself if he's not?

I like, you know, I'm just trying to give this podcast up to people who can make better jokes than me.

And it's kind of a willy-wonka type situation.

And

you have a suggestion for, like, he's analog and digital, like, dig anadig or

digalog?

I don't know.

You all workshop it.

Come up, when you come to open court, let me know.

Meanwhile, let's get to your case.

You deserve to be heard.

Who brings the case?

I do, Judge.

And Sam, you and Laura work at home near to each other?

Yes, most of the time we work in our living room together.

And Laura is distracting you?

Yeah, you could say that.

Laura, what do you do?

I work at a non-profit.

Oh, okay.

But I mean, when you're not working at the nonprofit and distracting Sam.

Oh,

he's claiming that you're distracting him.

How is this happening?

Oh, how am I distracting?

Yes.

I see the pets do something cute.

We have three animals and I just can't help myself.

I have to get Sam to look, especially when they do something that's time sensitive, like rolling and showing their belly, or you know, they have their tongue sticking out, or they got something stuck in their face, on their nose,

or when our dog and the cats are starting to get closer, if they're cuddling for the first time or closer than they've been,

I don't want to miss that moment, or have Sam miss that moment.

And I presume that you sent in some evidence.

Oh, of course.

Richard Robey, show me the pets.

No!

I don't know.

Should I look?

I don't want to look.

I'm really busy right now hosting this show, but all right.

Oh,

come on.

Who are they?

What are their names, if I may ask?

The one with a white belly is Soba, and the black one is Rolaren.

Any Star Trek fans out there?

No, there are no Star Trek fans here.

No Star Trek fans, no tabletop gamers, not here.

They're very adorable.

Do you have another piece of evidence to submit?

I definitely think so.

What is the name of this dog?

This is Cowboy.

Cowboy with a dog.

Follow-up question: Can I eat him?

What does Cowboy have on his nose?

It's a little leaf.

Why did you answer, Sam?

What do you care?

Why do you hate looking at these pets so much, Sam?

I promise I'm not a monster.

I look at them like so much.

Like Cowboys, he's like my best friend.

Sure.

And I do throughout the day.

Like I love being able to work from home with my partner and our pets.

But I think...

I think I've just gotten so used to how cute they are.

It's like I don't need to see every single time they're cute.

Oh, you've gotten so used to how cute they are

that you've stopped seeing how cute, you've stopped appreciating them.

You spend so much time in the same room with creatures that you love that you no longer appreciate or even see them, basically.

Is that right, Laura?

It kind of feels like that.

Something like that.

How often does Laura ask you to look at the pets I think it depends on the day how distracted they are I would say like at max maybe like 10 times 10 times a day 10 times a workday or just the work day a waking day in a work day well that is quite a bit Laura wouldn't you agree yeah but they're pretty cute

I mean, I have to say that

we have a very dumb cat in our house, and

I say that only because I love that cat, and it's very true.

It's a dumb, dumb cat.

I have seen this cat sleeping under a coffee table and then stand up and hit her head.

The least amount of field awareness I've ever seen an animal, especially a cat, have.

Just like boonk.

Soba would do that.

Yeah, right?

And that's a fun thing to see when you catch it.

But it's definitely the case in our family because she just is so dumb and is often just staring off into space in the middle of a hallway.

Walking in, you see her go,

look at you.

And it's just a cat staring off into space, which maybe isn't worth the interruption.

I'm trying to say is maybe not all of, I mean, I appreciate the time-sensitive cuteness.

Definitely a tongue sticking out of the mouth and a leaf on the nose, for heaven's sake.

Grab your camera.

But don't you think, Laura, it might be too much from time to time?

Yeah, especially Sam's job requires a lot of focus and mine requires a lot less focus.

So I do want to be respectful of their need to actually focus on work.

What is the work that requires so much focus that you do, Sam?

I'm a transportation engineer for a city.

For a city?

For this city.

The city of San Francisco?

Yes.

What?

Holy moly, we really do have some infrastructure nerds in the house.

I mean, that sounds good, but I wouldn't ever think to applaud it until I knew more.

What does that that involve exactly?

I specifically do a lot of traffic signal timing work, so I hold it.

Thank you.

May I?

The judge is hugging the litigant.

And that's sincere, because you know I'm a former traffic counter.

That was my job.

I did.

I wrote in about it.

Yeah, I sat.

Oh, you wrote in about it?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, we've corresponded?

Yes, yeah.

Laura, you want to take a break?

Let's talk about traffic counter just for a sec.

Just for just a million seconds.

What did you write when you wrote in?

Because I've regret that I don't remember.

I think you had mentioned on an episode that you were hired to count traffic and you didn't talk about why.

No.

So I wrote in about like kind of why.

that data is needed and what we do with it.

Yeah, no, you explained, now I remember, you explained a deep mystery to me.

Because I would go out at 7 a.m.

to an intersection in New Haven, Connecticut with five different clickers and count which cars go straight, which cars go left, which cars go right, and so on.

And I never knew why I was doing it.

I came, I mean,

I got paid $12 an hour in 1990, which is $1,000 a minute now.

You know,

that bought a lot of bourbon and comic books.

I'll tell you what.

The ad in the newspaper just said,

traffic company seeks Yale graduate graduate to count.

I was a student at the time.

I'm not that old.

I was a first-year student and I wanted to make a little extra money and it was a great way to get to know the Paris of southern Connecticut, New Haven.

But I had no idea why I was doing it and as I mentioned and I'll say it again, I would have to go and meet my handler once a week.

in a different location every time.

She was the one who told me where to go and I would turn in my numbers for that day and one time I said to her,

why am I doing this and she said I don't know

John are you a hundred percent that you weren't working for the CIA

I honestly thought that it might be like a psychological experiment to see just how far we can push him how how big of a rule follower is he because there was no one checking up on me I had no idea whether like I could have just put in any numbers I wanted I thought maybe it was a psych experiment but now I realize it was a recruiting experiment and I failed, apparently.

Your handler is looking at the piece of paper like, 69 cars again?

Oh, no, no, no.

Saturday there were 420.

Laura, you mentioned you work for a nonprofit.

I think it's only fair to ask what your nonprofit does.

They work with the LGBTQ community.

Thank you very much.

Almost as important as the timing of traffic signals.

I'd say they're equally important.

So what would you have me rule if I were to rule in in your favor, Sam?

I think like a limit to how many times or some kind of like...

What's the limit?

What's the limit?

Say a limit.

Maybe like three times a day.

Three times a day.

So you're telling me, Sam, that if Laura points out three cute things and then all of a sudden those two cats are riding cowboy like a horse,

You don't want to know about it?

What if there's an emergency cuteness situation?

yeah I would want to know you would want to know wouldn't you

Laura do you feel sometimes that the issue is not so much Sam won't look at the cats but that you would you would like his attention and you're not getting it a little bit um I like I said I I don't have to focus as much and so any point he doesn't need to focus that much you should see

you should see it he's not turning he's not man he's not he's not manning the stoplights himself.

He's not like looking at a camera going, okay, this is going to be red in five, four, three, two.

Go for yellow.

All right.

Stand by for red.

Stand by for red.

Do we have the walk sign going?

Okay, let's see it.

Five, four, three.

Solid hand on.

Zero.

Go.

Okay, go for solid hand.

Stand by for red.

Stand by for red.

And here we go.

Red.

It's hard work.

It's not what's happening.

I don't know what he's telling you.

He's playing a video game.

But, you know,

how do you feel when Sam says, I don't want to look at the cats.

I don't want to enjoy this with you.

Well, for me, the hardest part is that they just don't respond.

He doesn't respond?

Oh, they, excuse me.

They don't respond?

Yeah, they just, they're so focused.

That's what I'm saying.

Their focus is unbreakable.

And

I will say, oh, look at the cat.

And they'll just keep working.

And then like three minutes later, maybe turn around and go, oh, and then they miss it.

And that's why I get so frustrated because I'm like, if you looked right away, you would would see the cute thing and it would be over in a second.

Right.

First of all, I apologize for misgendering you.

Did I do it any other time?

It's okay.

Okay.

I apologize.

Are either of you

vegetarians or vegans?

I mean, it's great if you are.

I'm just, if you were, then you probably had never been to

a Brazilian barbecue restaurant.

There's a chain of them around where they just keep bringing food to your table.

I've seen the sign on the freeway.

Yeah.

It's gross.

It's gross.

Even as an omnivore, I find it to be a little bit gross.

But they have one thing there that I think you could take advantage of, which is you get, when you sit down, they just start bringing you food on skewers, and they will keep going.

But you have some control because you get

a little disc with a green light.

You'll like this, Sam.

I just realized.

On one side, it's a green light, meaning bring me more and on the other side it's a red light meaning I'm taking a break right now I think you should get go out to dinner you don't have to eat there just steal one of those things

bring it home and have it in a place where Laura can see it and when you need to focus because you don't want cars to crash and such you can put it on red and and Laura do you think you could respect that I could but we already have something like that no

And it's actually a traffic signal light that you can put each one.

Laura, that's even better.

See, Jesse, this is the last episode of the podcast ever.

We're done.

They're all doing it better than me.

It's for the best.

They got this.

So, this isn't helping?

We haven't used it for that purpose yet.

Oh, well, what purpose?

Well, never mind.

None of my business.

If it is reasonable to repurpose

your home traffic light and it won't send mixed messages or cause hilarious misunderstandings,

then I would suggest, Sam, that you put the red light on, but be thoughtful about it.

You know what I mean?

Don't forget you put the green light on.

You have a great opportunity.

It's wonderful to be able to be at home and work from home with both the person and the animals that you love.

And you want to take advantage of that.

So make sure that there's a certain amount of green light.

But I think it's reasonable to indicate to your partner, I just need a little bit of focus time here.

And, you know, I basically, I would say to you, Laura, is just, you know, rig up cameras throughout your apartment so that you capture everything.

We have one watching our dog right now.

Do you have a live camera that I can look at right now?

Yeah, I might take a sec to load, though.

Yeah, I'll look at it in a little bit.

Okay.

It has night vision.

Get it loaded up because Jesse's going to sing a song in the singing and I'll come take a look for you.

All right.

This is the sound of the gavel.

Thank you.

Judge John Hodgman moves out of song.

That's it for this week's episode of Judge John Hodgman.

Our thanks to all of those litigants who joined us on stage at the Sydney Goldstein Theater.

A very special thank you to the fine people at SF Sketch Fest for employing me when I was indigent out of college in 2006 and 2007, I'm going to say, 2008, maybe.

Something like that.

Sorry, Jesse, I'm doing my stretching routine.

Evidence and photos from our show are posted on our Instagram account at instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman.

Follow us there.

You can also find the photos at maximumfund.org on the Judge John Hodgman page for this episode.

Work on quads.

Join the conversation on Reddit, maximumfund.reddit.com.

Thank you to Redditor Redditor Acon419 for naming this week's main case and for being, I'm going to say, a pioneering graffiti artist in New York in the late 1970s.

That's what that sounds like to me.

Acon419.

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Submit your disputes at maximumfun.org slash jho.

That's maximumfun.org slash jjho.

Hang on, Jesse.

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Time to do my hammies.

Dad gummet.

Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode recorded by Matthew Barnard, produced by Valerie Moffat, Richard Roby, and Jennifer Marmor.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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