Live from Denver

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

This week's episode recorded live at the Gothic Theater in beautiful Denver, Colorado.

Beautiful mile-high Denver, Colorado.

Another stop on our frontier justice tour of the West.

And it featured our friend, the great David Borey.

Literally, one of the funniest comedians in the world.

Oh, there are few in comedy I love as much as I love the great David Borey.

One of the funniest, best guys in the history of entertainment, as far as I'm concerned.

This was a great show.

I'm really excited to hear it.

Let's go to the stage at the Gothic Theater.

Denver, Colorado, you've come to us desperate for justice, and we're here at the Gothic Theater to deliver it.

Let's bring out our first set of litigants.

Please welcome Paul and Chris.

Tonight's case, Buy Me Subpoenas and Cracker Jack.

Paul brings the case against his friend Chris.

Chris has stopped believing in baseball superstitions and jinxes.

He says his behavior can't affect the outcome of a baseball game.

Paul says his friend's carelessness has jinxed the team.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

People at the time asked me, did you know she was going to become so famous?

And I say, no, I didn't, but she did.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Paul and Chris, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

Yes.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact the only sport he follows is

a horse race gambling and not a wholesome trotting race, but a race where they sat down right on the horse?

Yes.

I do.

Makes your blood boil, I should say.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Paul and Chris, you may be seated.

You've got a lot of energy coming off of you.

Which one of you is Paul?

I'm Paul.

Yeah, I could tell.

For the at-home listener, Paul is

believes he's on the Philadelphia Phillies,

according to visual evidence.

You got five hours of energy coming off of you, and I should know.

I do.

Paul and Chris, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

One of your favorites, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

It says you're Paul.

Why don't you go first?

No, Chris, you go first.

You want to hear it again?

I'm sorry, yes, please.

Okay, so this is a podcast.

And

I make an obscure cultural reference, and if you can guess the source of it, then you automatically win the case.

So here is that obscure cultural reference again.

People at the time asked me, did you know she was going to become so famous?

And I say, no, I didn't, but she did.

Who am I quoting, Chris?

Any guesses?

One guess?

Madonna.

Madonna.

It's a great guess.

She's a celebrity entertainer.

That's true.

Who is Madonna talking about in that quote?

Was I on the right track?

Actually, yes.

Paul?

Tina Turner.

Tina Turner.

Okay.

So the person is talking about someone else.

The bodyguard, Kevin Costner.

Okay.

Kevin Costner talking about Tina Turner.

Yeah.

Wait, hold on.

Right.

Do you think

that Kevin Costner goes by the bodyguard Kevin Costner?

Like Jesse the body ventura?

And Chris, your guess is Kevin Costner talking about Madonna.

Would that be your guess?

Yes.

Okay, no,

do you have another guess?

You seem to be wanting to say something.

And given that it's a podcast, that'd be good.

Sorry, Your Honor, I don't.

Okay, no, that's great.

Great guesses.

Kevin Costner and Madonna, the whole thing was great.

Yeah, it's all great.

But all guesses are wrong.

I was quoting someone named Bonnie Erickson.

Paul, do you know who Bonnie Erickson is?

I do not.

Do you know who she was speaking of?

Kevin Costner?

No.

People at the time asked, Did you know she was going to become so famous?

And I say, no, I didn't, but she did.

She was speaking of Miss Piggy.

Why was Bonnie Erickson talking about Miss Piggy?

Chris, guess

Okay.

The reason is Bonnie Erickson worked for Muppet Studios and she designed Miss Piggy.

She also designed Statler and Waldorf and Zoot.

And she also designed someone that is close to your heart, Paul, even if you don't know it.

Someone or something

called

the Philly Fanatic, Paul.

How does that make you feel?

It feels very bad.

It feels really bad.

You should know.

Not for the last time, I'm sure.

Yes.

So who seeks justice, since we have to hear this case, who seeks justice in this court?

I do, Your Honor.

And what is the nature of the justice you seek?

Well, like Bailiff Jesse said, Chris has stopped believing in baseball jinxes, which is fine for his team.

Yes.

The Seattle Mariners, the Seattle Seahawks.

But when he breaks them out and they affect my team, I'm seeking an injunction to prevent him from jinxing my team.

Now, your team is the Philadelphia Phillies.

It is.

You are wearing their costumery right now.

I am.

And

they came in second in the World Series.

Is that true?

That's true.

That's right.

Which is an honor unto itself.

It's true.

It's true.

And that's because Chris jinxed them.

He did, yes.

How did Chris jinx them?

So Chris and I run together regularly, and we talk a lot about sports.

We talk about a lot of things.

But when we talk about sports, we try to respect each other's teams.

Both of our teams made the playoffs this year, his for the first time in 20 years.

And, you know, we tried to avoid stepping on each other's teams with jinxes until the last day of the season when Chris said during a run, sort of cavalierly, the Phillies.

Hang on.

Chris, do you remember what you said?

I do.

Only, I've been reminded of it a few times.

Just for the purpose of dramatic reenactment, right?

Can you say it?

What Paul claims I jinxed him on was

that the Phillies had kept the Astros designated hitter, Jordan Alvarez, in check.

Yeah.

What a spooky incantation.

Yeah.

Paul, what does that mean, and why should I care?

Well,

I certainly cared because Jordan Alvarez,

who, by the way, hit a game-winning home run against his Mariners earlier in the playoffs, hit a World Series-winning home run against my Phillies that night.

I see.

So, he, what did he do?

What was the jinx?

Mentioning the name?

Speaking at all?

Because it is unusual for Chris.

Saying specifically that we had kept this player in check while the World Series was still happening.

To say something is going well for your team

is immediately going to upend it.

It's like saying the words no-hitter during a no-hitter.

You're going to wreck it.

You're going to be right, of course, because you have incredible mental powers.

That's true.

Everyone does.

It's true.

We all do.

That's exactly true.

Everything, every fan does.

They're incredible mental powers that can only be challenged by taking off your hat, folding it in half, and then putting it on top of your head like a shark's fin.

Chris, how do you respond to this accusation that you jinxed the Phillies and lost them the World Series and made Paul sad and 1% less bubbly.

Right.

I mean, it's an amazing feeling knowing you had that power.

That part I do relish.

Honestly, I don't believe in jinxes at all anymore.

I don't believe in the power of a fan to jinx their team.

And I base that on a decade or decades of supporting Seattle sports.

There clearly is no order in the universe.

Destiny has no authorship.

We are destined to cycle into oblivion.

Look around you.

That's my quote of Chris.

Paul, this is not the first time you've been part of the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

Is that not correct?

That is correct.

Indeed, it's not even the second time

you've been part of my life.

Is that

not correct?

That's true.

I see you backing up.

Yeah.

Why?

Explain to me your previous intrusions

into my life and explain why I should not be calling security right now.

So I was a litigant on episode 113.

113.

Uniform code of

many of you were born.

It was 10 years ago.

It was June of 2013.

It was uniform.

Five-hour energy jenkins.

Just been invented.

It was Uniform Code of Podcast Justice.

Yes.

And my friend Jeremy brought the case against me that I should not be allowed to wear Phillies gear to a game in which the Phillies were not playing.

So

I submitted as evidence a picture of us at Dodgers Stadium in a game between the Dodgers and and the Reds in 2009 wearing this.

That outfit.

Including the Crocs.

So, what we're seeing here is a cotton, classic early 1980s-style Philadelphia fill, like a Mike Schmidt-style Phillies hat.

Got on one of the little star dot Phillies uniforms, like a Darren Dalton-type uniform, and then Crocs, like a real jerk would wear.

Well,

so, and Judge Hodgman, you commented at the time that it was a mixed bag of, you know, different versions of the Phillies brand identity.

You did call it during that podcast, you called it my Phillies clown outfit.

Yes, because you were wearing a motley fool arrangement of Philly's swag.

That's true.

And I never had a chance to see it in person, nor did I particularly want to.

Here it is.

But here we are.

But the other time,

the first time we interacted, you ruled

in your New York Times column net.

So even before.

New York Times magazine column netchman.

Magazine column net.

That's right.

I don't want to be associated with the failing New York Times newspaper

as opposed to the thriving New York Times magazine.

But I wrote to you about my collection of ice cream helmets from baseball games.

That's right, I recall now.

Right.

I didn't know that you were the same person.

I'm the same person.

Yeah.

And you commented, just to make a long story short, you commented that the difference between...

Well, how many did you have?

At the time, I had maybe 50 or 60.

And how many do you have now?

About 430.

Okay.

And at the time, you said the difference between a hoarder and a collector is a display case.

That's true.

That was the origin of that discussion.

That was the origin of that quote, which you have repeated many times.

John Hodgman quote, yeah, but that time you had 60 of them.

I did, yeah.

And they were ordered out of my kitchen cabinets.

If I may, I actually did bring gifts for you and Bailiff Jesse from the collection.

I have a Portland Sea Dogs ice cream helmet.

It's a minor league team in Portland, Maine.

A double-A affiliate of the Boston Red Sox.

That's also a sports team.

I know my stuff.

Right, and so this is the summertime, fun time, minor league baseball's Portland Sea Dogs.

Sure.

Jesse, I had a little harder time coming up with a good gift for him, but a year ago this month, Jesse had as a guest on Bullseye Alan Tudick from the TV show Firefly.

That's right, we were just talking about Tudick last night.

Love Tudick.

That's right.

And so I have brought for Jesse a helmet from the Columbia Fireflies.

From the Columbia Fireflies.

A high A affiliate of the Kansas City Road.

I would ask our road producer Richard Roby to come out here, please, and take these things away from you

and off the stage and do the standard poison testing.

Very generous of you.

In your New York Times magazine ColumnNet, you refer to them as garbage toys.

Well, Paul, it's nice to see you again.

What was the name of the person that

you had the dispute with when you were on

the podcast?

His name was Jeremy.

and he's obviously not in your life anymore no he is he's one of my very good friends

chris

how much did he pay you to be here

obviously you don't have a dispute

i'm it's clear you have no idea where you are or why

i'm not actually sure that you've ever met paul before

I kind of feel like there was a Craigslist ad going, will someone pretend to be in a fight with me so that I can skip the meet and greet line at the Judge John Osman show

and present my tokens live on stage for my own sick amusement.

Is that not what happened?

Don't wait for the translation, Chris.

Answer the question.

This is a lot, yeah.

Yeah,

I'm going to ask you a series of simple questions that you can answer truthfully, I hope.

Yes.

I'll remind you you're under fake oath.

Do you know Paul?

I do.

Are you his friend?

I am.

How long have you been his friend?

15 years.

Oh, okay.

very good.

Is he always like this?

He's passionate, for sure.

Yeah, for sure.

So you are here

in a good faith effort to resolve a dispute because you don't like being accused of jinxing the Philadelphia Phillies.

Absolutely.

Well, I don't mind jinxing the Phillies.

But

I don't honestly feel I have the power to do so.

Was there a time that you believed in superstitions?

100%.

I spent most of my life thinking I could impact

the Mariners and the Seahawks.

And it turns out I can't.

What ways would you attempt to impact their performance

on the baseball pitch and the...

Yeah, so whatever.

In the foot team that you like, the Seahawks?

In the football sphere.

Yeah, in the football sphere.

Exactly.

Thank you.

Yeah, so I think it's like most fans.

Would you wear a special hat and they'd get one more into the scorehole or something?

A little

like that.

Did you have a a Philly's clown outfit you would wear?

I don't know.

Was there a podcaster you would stalk?

And like

if I could just talk to him, the Mariners will go all the way.

sadly no um i i i don't think i did anything out of the ordinary from uh a fan i don't know anything about sports so just please establish what is ordinary vis-a-vis superstitions what kinds of things would you do or not do in order to affect the outcome of these games so um

so the the seattle mariners have been in the playoffs very few times in my life and as a as a you know grown man there there

should have been a lot of games to be involved in.

So I would.

I'm sorry to pause.

Paul,

Chris claims he's known you for about 15 years.

That's true.

Does he always sound so sad, or just we're talking about from the house?

Because it's heartbreaking.

Chris genuinely heartbreaking.

I just want to say, Chris is a salesman professionally.

His job, he's in sales.

Do I sound sad?

That makes me feel bad.

No, no, I mean,

it's because of the Mariners.

It's not, John, it's not exactly sadness that animates the Mariners.

It's the example of their great hero, Ichiro,

who, until he was 48 years old, just spent the whole winter hitting fungos in a frozen baseball stadium in Japan so he could come back for one more not playoffs year in Seattle.

You relate to that, right?

Absolutely.

There's a sort of honor in the toil in the mines of failure.

I understand.

I understand.

So what would you do in order to try to make it go?

If I'm at a game,

I could easily be on the concourse watching through my hands.

If I'm at home...

Because you're afraid that if you witness,

if they know that you're watching, they will fail.

That's true.

Right.

Let it be known that members of the audience are saying that is absolutely true.

Right.

Right,

so if I'm watching through my fingers and we get a hit, then I have to continue to do that.

May I see how you would, I mean,

will you show me how you would watch through your fingers?

Yeah, so, well, I'd be holding a beer here and then I'm like this.

Right, right.

You form a little twin face huggers from Alien Mask for yourself.

Okay, I got you.

I really painted a word picture there for the at-home audience.

And I think I took it to a...

I could have said fleshy goalie mask, but I think the twin face huggers really brings it home.

Sorry, go ahead.

I was just complimenting myself.

Baseball's my true passion, as is Paul's,

but I let it spill over into football as well.

And I

regretfully got my kids involved.

Right.

So you asked, for an example, one of them, and I don't know if I can bring

evidence, but I do.

No, no, I'm happy to handle anything that you hand me.

Let me take a look.

Okay.

I'll touch this stuff, these gloves that you brought, and I touch them to my face.

Give them a smell.

I have no fear.

Careful.

I have no fear from you, unless this has all been set up by Paul.

My moriarty.

I know that he's going to confiscate my two garbage hats.

I'll plant two poison gloves

in the pocket of my henchman, Chris.

Hodgman will surely breathe deep.

What's the meaning of these gloves?

So

these are Seattle Seahawk gloves back when Russell Wilson played for us.

Wow.

I went there.

I went there.

So are the Seahawks rivals with the Denver football team, the Broncos?

Wow.

I did my research.

I think they used to be.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, they used to be.

So you would bring your children to the game and you had these gloves.

Well, so this is even deeper than that.

My son and I,

my two boys, Ryan and Jack, and I are watching the Seahawks play the Minnesota Vikings.

This is a playoff game about six, seven seven years ago.

The Vikings are about to win with a 25-foot chip shot.

Jabetus in the wild card game.

It's a sports metaphor about sports.

Please continue.

Super easy.

Like,

I'm sure people here remember this game.

It's a given that the Vikings are going to beat the Hawks.

And right before the shot, I throw these gloves to my son, Ryan, put these on.

Good luck, gloves.

The kid misses the chip shot for the Vikings.

Wait, your son missed the shot?

No, no, no, no.

If I believed in Jinxes, yes, my son made the shot miss.

Right.

That's why you have the gloves, but no son anymore.

So the Seahawks win the game because I threw my son these gloves.

Oh, no, that was a good thing, right?

My poor son thinks that Jinxes are a real deal because of me.

And

I think that's completely irresponsible of me.

I think it's crazy to think that we have power over what happens on the field.

And that was my point with Jinxes.

I don't believe in them.

I don't believe in them.

Especially,

just for the listeners at home,

there was a very intense look shared between Paul and Chris.

Between the first and second, I don't believe in them.

The real reason, though, Your Honor, I don't believe in them is because if they were true, the Mariners would have won five World Series in the last couple, like last 10 years, let's say.

Okay.

So you would only be using the gloves every other year for the Mariners?

So does your son still believe in jinx and sports jinx?

He does, and that's a failing as me of a parent to pass this on, that you need to spend your time worrying and think you're responsible as if you're paying this premium to get a, to get wins later on in life.

It doesn't exist.

Chris, this is a ridiculous.

Everyone knows that our jinxes fight with everyone else's jinxes.

So we have to do as many reverse jinxes as we can.

So we've done more reverse jinxes than the other people have.

Right, it's the Giants have won three World Series in the last 15 years.

I think I know what I'm talking about.

That's a good point, Chris.

Who's to say?

Let the records show that Jesse has put his hat on upside down and is making the sign of the double face hugger.

What would be an example of a reverse jinx anyone on stage who knows about sports?

Well, anything.

Anything could be lucky, not changing her underpants, for example.

I mean, that's one of the luckiest things there is.

Well, being on tour has brought me a lot of luck then.

Chris, what would be a reverse?

Hang on, Paul.

Chris, what would be a reverse jinx?

Your Honor, thank you for asking.

Betting on your team, which is something I didn't do for 15 years before I finally said, to help with this, I'm going to bet on the Mariners.

I'm going to do a reverse jinx.

To your point, sir with the awesome mustache

that it doesn't matter what I do.

You know what?

I'll take 10 of whatever it is that you're selling for.

That's right.

That was an incredible maneuver.

Judge Hodgman.

All of a sudden, I'm over here going, what the heck?

I want to buy whatever you're selling, too.

Why is he in love with my bailiff?

I also have a mustache.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org/slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

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Yeah, I'm talking about entree bowls, but you know what?

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Paul, when Chris said that thing that cost the Phillies the World Series,

was there anything you could do, any kind of special dance or laundering habit or

toothpicking or anything that you could do to undo the damage that Chris did?

Well, you have to act swiftly in this instance.

And the reverse jinx is really important.

And so I said, hey, Yurdan Alvarez, he's amazing.

He's an unrivaled talent on the Houston Astros.

They're the better team.

They're definitely going to win.

You saw what Yurdan Alvarez can do yourself.

Clearly, he's going to break through at some point.

And the power of my reverse Jinx was no match for his, you know, careless, you know.

So the reverse Jinx is saying, your team sucks and

they're going to lose.

Yes, that.

Right.

And the Jinx was him saying, your team is pretty good and they're going to win.

Yeah, exactly.

Ah, I see.

Yeah.

And by saying those two sentences, what have I wrought in this universe?

I feel like I'm just a butterfly who just flapped its wings in Indonesia.

This is really important because at the time of this recording, we are are 10 days away from the Super Bowl in which

my Philadelphia Eagles

are about to play.

I've been doing my best to keep my distance from Chris.

He is invited to the Super Bowl party, but

I'm worried about whatever he's going to say that's going to ruin the Eagles' chances in the Super Bowl.

And what it would be would be anything positive about the Eagles whatsoever.

Any assured statement.

Yeah, any assurance that, of course, they're going to do...

I'm not saying I'm even nervous with you saying it right now.

No, no, no, no, no.

I'm not saying anything.

I'm not saying anything.

But yes, that.

That's the sort of thing, and it would make you very upset.

It would.

Well, it would ruin the Eagles' chances.

I'm trying to do everything I can to win the Eagles a Super Bowl here.

I have to.

And I'm sure all of Philadelphia thanks you.

They're doing what they can, too.

There are batteries with your name on them in Philadelphia.

Go birds.

You know, I'm going to give you a shot here, Paul, to finally say something.

You know, Chris makes the point

that

he had this awakening

that

when his son

started believing in jinxes,

he felt as a father that was an irresponsible thing to do because it is a kind of magical thinking.

that you are going to be able to affect or that not even affect but outcomes that you have no influence over will be affected by the way you think, act, or feel, which can cause a lot of anxiety.

Makes me nervous.

What are some of the fun upsides

of feeling terrified all the time that your friend Chris is going to say the wrong thing?

First of all, I'm speaking as a person who has driven both of my children away from team sports.

Neither one of them could care less about

team sports at this point.

But, I mean, my response to that is: what's wrong with magical thinking?

Magical thinking is a great thing.

We're all, you know, team sports, watching team sports, you're watching grown men in pajamas throw a ball around, right?

I get that, I understand it.

But what, you know, to me, it feels like you're part of something bigger than yourself.

If you feel like you are

like you have some sort of effect.

And so to me, sports superstitions, I'm not a religious person.

They turn you into a living God.

They turn you into a living God based entirely on which sofa cushion you're sitting on.

So

plenty of world religions are based on less.

That's what I'm saying.

To me, there's a beauty in this, what you describe as magical thinking.

I think that that's a beautiful thing, and I like being a part of it.

Judge Hodgman, if I could explain to you in literary terms.

Thank you.

You've probably read

Joan Didion's book, My Year of Magical Thinking,

about the 1987 Philadelphia Phillies.

It was a real page turner.

Yeah.

So we're coming up on the Super Bowl.

Your beloved Philadelphia Eagles.

Eagles?

How dare you?

Your beloved bird team

will either do well or poorly.

See how I threaded that needle?

Everything's still up in the air.

You're asking me to forbid your friend Chris

from saying

anything

that could possibly jinx them.

Yes.

Chris, how do you feel about that?

It's just tricky, right?

Like,

where do I start and stop with that?

Well, you could possibly talk about something other than sports.

Tricky.

It's a tough one.

Tough one, Judge.

Let the record show that Chris is also

chewing some gum in a charismatic way and looks like an extremely handsome retired baseball player.

Wow.

Yeah, Chris definitely plays the game the right way.

Do you think it would be an imposition to you

to not be able to speak to your friend until the Super Bowl is over?

He did invite me to his house for the party.

Doesn't it give you some pleasure to know how much power you will wield at that party?

There's so much that you could get

Paul to do.

I hadn't thought of that but

and I don't mean it I don't I wouldn't want to do that to him I would I wouldn't because I agree I love sports for the way it brings everyone together right

there's probably Mariner fans in here right now there's all kinds of us and we just yeah I don't

do you remember

Do you remember when the audience booed you for mentioning

a different team?

Also, remember

a kumbaya moment.

Also, remember when you said you love the way sports brings people together next to a Philly sports guy?

So, if I were to rule in your favor, how would you have me rule?

Can you say that there's no such thing as sports jinxes?

I can say it.

Is this a technique you learned at a seminar?

Did you get the Judge Sean Hodgman lead?

That would be my request.

Where do I make my investment?

I feel very empowered now.

Do you have an online course?

How would you feel?

How would it make you feel in both your rational and your emotional mind, Paul, if I were to say,

with all of the godlike power that I have given myself as a fake internet judge,

there are no such things as jinxes?

This is hypothetical.

I'm not saying it.

But perhaps that's a jinx itself.

You don't even know.

Your brain's twisting and doing cartwheels right now, trying to figure out.

Is this a jinx?

No, that's not a jinx.

I would be sad.

Incorrect, sir.

You just don't know what I jinxed.

Let the record show that I waved my hand and went, woo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo.

How does it make you feel?

I would be sad, right?

I think

it would be sad to not believe that we're all part of something bigger that we can influence and be a part of.

Stop talking.

Okay.

This is the question I'm asking you.

Okay.

Based on my dialectical behavioral therapy that I've been going through, and it's been amazing.

When I say there's no such thing as jinxes,

describe what your body is doing and how you are feeling.

All right.

Well, based on my own therapy.

Describe your feelings.

I can tell you that the chest is tightening.

There's a pit in the stomach.

The lizard brain, the amygdala, it's all kicking in.

It's saying, no, no, no, no, this is wrong.

What style of therapy are you doing?

Counseling.

I don't know.

Talking to a counselor.

Like cognitive behavioral therapy?

Yeah, that one.

Boo!

Boo!

The correct answer was high school vocational.

I can tell that it makes it makes you feel nervous.

It makes you feel uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I don't want that for you, Paul.

Thank you.

Do you think that you've ever positively influenced your team, Paul?

I do, yes.

I traded away a bad luck hat to my brother for his good luck hat, and it's been working ever since.

So can I ask you how...

My brother's okay.

How'd you sell him on that?

How'd you sell him on that one?

Was it just a pure act of generosity on his part?

No, it was an objectively better hat that I gave him, but I needed it out of my life because when I wore it, the Eagles were losing.

When he wears it, they win.

He's worn it to the Eagles playoff games.

What kind of hat did you get back?

It's an Eagles championship hat from 2018.

Hmm.

Seems like kind of a jinx.

Not yet.

Okay.

I'm thoroughly confused.

And therefore, I think I know everything.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Chris, how are you feeling about your chances here tonight?

Did you close?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't think so.

I think Paul's got a pretty strong case against me.

Paul, how are you feeling?

You know, you asked me that question 10 years ago.

on the podcast, and I said, as a Philadelphia sports fan, I live in a constant state of pessimism.

I assume I'm going to lose.

I'm still there now.

Is pessimism a Philadelphia word for rage?

It's just a constant state of affairs for us.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and delivers his verdict.

You may be seated.

Some time ago, I went to a sports contest, professional sports contest,

in the sport of ice hockey.

Now, you know, sure,

the minorist of the major leagues,

you probably know that

I am a fan of only one sport, which is the sport of extinct hockey.

Hockey teams that don't exist anymore.

The Hartford Whalers, the Quebec Nordiques, etc.

I love them because the outcome is known and it reduces my anxiety.

All extinct hockey teams are losers and I can sympathize with them.

But as part of a research project, I went to an actual live non-extinct hockey game being played between the Pittsburgh Penguins and another team

that I don't remember.

And in advance of this, I was talking to noted

public radio hockey correspondent Greg Washinsky.

And Greg told me that he had

a ritual.

He had to have pink lemonade when he went to the hockey game or else his team would lose.

And I said, that is goddamn offensive.

That is an insult because I am not an athlete, nor do I follow sports.

But I know that these athletes work very hard.

They push themselves and train themselves and study their work day in and day out.

And to suggest that somehow your wishing is going to affect their performance is an insult to those professional athletes, in my opinion.

I went to the game,

but I did ask him, Should I bring my Hartford Whalers hat to the game?

Because will that jinx it?

And he said, No, I think it'll be fine.

I went to the game, and I just felt funny about wearing my Hartford Whalers hat in that

in that ice arena.

And it came to

what do you call it?

Sudden death at the end of hockey?

Sudden death.

Oh yeah, overtime.

Overtime.

Sudden death.

Someone was going to die.

Sudden death was at the

end.

That's the one that was at the end of Joan Didion's My Year Imagination.

That's right.

Final chapter.

And

the other team had one chance to get a goal against the Pittsburgh Penguins.

And then the other team was going to win.

But if the Pittsburgh Penguins blocked the goal,

came over, Pittsburgh Penguins won.

And I was rooting for the Pittsburgh Penguins because I knew the name of the team.

So

I couldn't help myself.

The last second,

I put on that Hartford Whalers hat and the Penguins lost.

Because of what I did.

It's a powerful, powerful feeling that you have ruined a hockey game

and disappointed fans and you're in Pittsburgh.

Who knows what they'll do to you if they ever found out that you and your hat lost the game for their team.

It is part of my therapy to hold opposite ideas in the same moment.

On the one hand, there is

the

On the one hand, there is the idea.

We are pattern-recognizing animals.

We build narratives around us, and we are massive egotists.

We want to be part of those narratives, even when, in fact,

what is also true is that the universe doesn't care about us.

We are an accident of evolution, and we won't last forever, and nothing we do is going to affect anything.

We can hold both.

That's the spirit.

That's what I expect from a city with legalized marijuana.

In my therapy, they just taught me Yankees suck.

These seem like two opposite ideas to hold at the same time.

But let me ask you, Paul.

Do you have Disney Plus?

Yes.

Have you watched the Star Wars show called Andor?

I have.

Yeah.

Have I told you what my proposed motto for that show, Andor, is?

No.

Andor.

Why not both?

Unfortunately.

Why not both?

Unfortunately, this is not a new bit.

I think John's about ready to get a tattoo of this bit.

So pumped about it.

Doesn't even make any sense.

There's and in there.

It is both.

But I'm just trying to get thematically to the idea of why not both.

Why not accept that the universe has no story to it and that we only suffer through it and the egotistical idea that we can affect what people who are much more physically talented than we are do on the field.

Why not both?

The problem is that if you accept your point of view, Paul, you are going to suffer.

Whereas, if, Chris, we follow your point of view, and your son does as well, and recognize that we are meaningless in this universe until we buy what you're selling.

It's profoundly humbling and even sad, almost as sad as the way you talk,

but it is also liberating.

It felt better to me when I realized that the news made me upset and didn't change because I read it.

It's important to be informed, but the compulsive reading of the news or, say, watching election results or whatever is just making me feel really, really, really bad.

You know, what changes things in the world is activism and direct action, not watching and talking and tweeting and thinking.

So what I'm saying to you, Paul, is

if things aren't going as well on the field as you would like, just get out there, buddy.

You've already proven.

You've already proven you can insinuate yourself into my life.

Talk yourself onto the field.

Say I got a couple of toy helmets or whatever.

Here's what I'm going to say.

Chris, in my opinion, has a healthier worldview than you.

But if it gives you happiness and not pain, well, okay.

I mean, I guess part of the pleasure of following sports is the pain that it causes you.

It's called the hellraiser principle.

These jinxes are kind of like your cenobites coming to rip your skin off and make you feel terrible.

Look at Chris for a sad man.

Look how happy he is.

Now that he admits that he's about

a speck of meaningless dust in

an uncountable time in this universe that has no meaningful story or purpose.

But, okay, if you want to feel this way, it's fine.

Chris,

I am going

against my better judgment to find in Paul's favor.

Wow.

I'm going to find in Paul's favor only because as his friend, you know some of the things that will trigger this anxiety.

And you should probably avoid doing that if you know that saying the wrong thing.

You know the kinds of things that you could say.

You're correct and happier.

Do you have children?

Yes.

Okay, you're a better father also.

Yeah.

That's not true.

That's not true.

That's not true.

But I can't take the joy of Paul's pain away from him.

Paul, I'm going to rule in your favor, and I'm going to say that I have absolute confidence that the Philadelphia Eagles are going going to win this map.

No, we're not.

This is the sound of the gavel.

I hope you have fun.

That is all.

Paul and Chris, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hi, I'm Amber Nash, the voice of Pam Poovy on the groundbreaking FX animated comedy Archer.

Remember Archer?

I sure don't.

That's why I started rephrasing an Archer rewatch podcast on maximumfun.org.

Join me and a bevy of special guests as we discuss every episode of Archer starting from the very beginning.

Archer executive producer Casey Willis and editor Christian Danley will provide insight and fun and help me remember everything I've forgotten about Archer, which is a lot.

So, join me on rephrasing an Archer Rewatch podcast on maximumfun.org because I can't wait to watch Archer again for the very first time.

The wizards answer eight by eight.

The Conclaves call to demonstrate their arcane gift, their single spell.

They number 64

until

a conflagration

sixty-three

and sixty-two they soon shall be, as one by one the wizards die,

till one remains to reign on high.

Join us for Taz Royale, an oops all-wizards battle royale season of the adventure zone every other Thursday on maximumfun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

We're taking a break from our show at the Gothic Theater.

You have a live show coming up for our New York-based friends.

I know, I do, you know, apart from our tour, I don't do as many live shows as I used to, but I have a rare live event coming up here in my hometown of New York City.

Selected Shorts, very famous radio program about short stories, asked me to host the McSweeney's 25th anniversary extravaganza on May 10th at Symphony Space.

And how could I say no?

I didn't.

I said, yes, I will host it.

It's going to be a great night with full of friends and family of McSweeney's reading stories and sharing memories.

I'm hosting it with musical guest Stephen Merritt of the Magnetic Fields.

I think it's going to be a really special night, and I hope you can come.

And I'll tell you what,

Symphony Space Selected Shorts, they got special tickets.

If you're under 30 years old, 17 bucks.

Just in for 17 bucks.

Fantastic deal.

So check it out.

Just Google Selected Shorts, John Hodgman.

You'll find it.

Jesse, what do you have going on?

I have some cool stuff on Bullseye and Jordan Jesse Go, my other shows.

We had a couple of really cool bullseye interviews recently.

One was with my friend Mark Maron, who folks might know as a comic and actor and podcaster, a really

fun

and deep conversation about

what's been going on in his life, among other things, a really brilliant stand-up special and his partner who passed away.

Mark Summers from Doubledare telling the story of the time Burt Reynolds pied him on the tonight show

in an angry way.

And one of the greatest artists of the American theater, as far as I'm concerned, Anna Devere Smith, who folks might know from her

like journalistic solo shows like Twilight Los Angeles 1992, which is in revival here in L.A.

And Anna Devere Smith, like possibly the smartest and most insightful person who's ever been on Bullseye.

Just a level of incandescent brightness that you cannot believe is real.

And if you want to learn something about theater and how it works and how to make it, you could hardly do better than that conversation with Anna DeVere Smith.

I really can't say enough about her, her work, all that kind of stuff.

And then, you know, over on Jordan Jesse Go, it's a bunch of me and Jordan swearing and saying gross stuff.

So go listen to that if that's what you're into.

You might say that it is two of the funniest people and oldest friends being as funny as funny people can be, honestly, is what it is.

So go listen to those shows.

Let's get back to the stage of the Gothic Theater in Denver and Swift Justice with our pal, the hilarious David Borey.

Please welcome to the stage Christy and Andrew.

Christy.

Christy brings the case against her boyfriend, Andrew.

Andrew Andrew likes to play video games featuring Nintendo's famous hero plumber.

Christie.

Christie says he pronounces that character's name incorrectly.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Hello, Christy and Andrew.

Andrew, you like to play video games featuring Nintendo's famous hero plumber?

Nintendo's famous hero plumber.

It says here on the paper.

It's like a modern-day warrior poet.

I thought Jesse had been replaced by a chat bot.

Okay.

David Borey, I think you would make a good king of the cowboy poets.

Man, your lips to God's ears.

Oh, God.

But Christy says that you say the name of this hero

adventure plumber.

What was it?

That's Nintendo's famous hero plumber.

Christie says that you say the name of this, of Nintendo's famous hero plumber incorrectly.

How would you say it?

Let's say, for example, that you were this person, and you were saying, it's me,

this person.

I'm going to start with this is a gotcha, but I would say, it's a me, Mario.

Wow.

Yeah, I expected that.

How would you park the car at Harvard Yard?

I don't know, on the green.

Very reasonable.

I'd do spot hero and probably try to get a spot in the Charles Hotel garage.

Because I'm a bougie asshole.

That's a gotcha.

You're not wrong.

You're not wrong, Andrew.

That was a gotcha.

I gotcha.

I got you.

You.

That's gotcha is me mispronouncing I got got you.

But it had to happen.

Christy,

how do you say, let's say you were a famous hero plumber

and you were going to identify yourself?

Like, wait a minute.

Are you Christy or who are you?

No, it's a me, Mario.

I mean, this is why the fans were so upset that Christy didn't play Mario in the movie.

That's right.

Can I ask a question?

Yeah, please.

What about his evil twin?

How do you pronounce that name?

Wario.

Whoa.

Wario.

The second.

I call shenanigans on this guy.

Andrew, do you come from a place where this is how Mario is pronounced typically?

Yes, actually, I do.

Where do you come from?

So I grew up here, but I lived in New York till I was nine.

Okay.

Hudson River Valley, just north of the city.

Sure.

And that is how people...

His County, Westchester County?

Westchester, near Terrytown.

White Plains?

Sleepy Hollow.

Oh, yeah, sure, of course.

Right.

Metro North represents...

That is what Sleepy Hollow is best known for.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it's Metro North station.

For sure.

Yeah, yeah.

Hey, guys.

Terrifying story of the commuter train without a conductor.

Guys, we got five minutes a case, so if we spend three minutes making local references to a place where we are not.

Look, I've been on the road for a week wearing the same underwear.

Good luck, but I'm homesick.

Would you say that there

in Sleepy Hollow,

on a dark Halloween, everyone will be saying Mario instead of Mario?

Is that how it's said there, sir?

It is absolutely how it is said there.

I feel like.

Hold.

Hold.

Hold, I'm all right.

I will ask the audience in a moment, please.

Please finish your sentence.

I want to point out there was a yes in there.

That's fine.

Okay.

They're also part of the audience.

Right, yes.

I'm feeling kind of.

Try to hold both ideas at the same time.

Okay, okay.

See what I mean?

But yeah, that is how I would say it there when I'm talking about the game.

It is Super Mario World or something to that effect.

I think if, yeah, that's...

That's it.

That's how you say that.

When you just said it like that so casually,

it's like I hardly even noticed it was weird.

It seems okay if that's how you grew up.

Christy, why is this bad?

Because it's a person's name.

So like different words can have regional pronunciations.

But Mario, as you so started, he says his own name.

And we need to respect how people pronounce their own names, right?

And

one might argue that that extends even now to virtual people, like video game characters and other AIs, right, Chatbot?

What do you think about this, David Borey?

I'm with you as someone who has a name that's often mispronounced.

I think it doesn't matter regionally.

He yells it all the time.

He's like, Mario, Mario, Mario.

You're not new to this.

You know what it is.

You're like, hey, Mario.

That's not.

It's not fair to anybody.

It would be fair.

To be fair, it would be fair to say Mario if it were a Nintendo platformer about former New York governor and several time presidential candidate Mario Cuomo.

That's true.

That's true.

A video game that is begging to be made.

Oh, I wish there was a game about eloquence.

But on the other hand, I think, David Borey, you make a point just by just by saying, how did you say it?

It's a me?

It's a me, Mario.

That's not what you're saying, Christy.

You're over here saying, it's a me, Mario.

You didn't go, you didn't, do it his way.

Okay, it's a me, Mahariyu.

Yeah, that's how you say it.

This feels like we're getting into weird territory.

Yeah,

I don't know.

I think it's kind of hot.

That's what I meant, weird territory.

That's right.

Andrew, does Christy say anything quote-unquote wrong?

Yeah, they're from Wisconsin, so

you can ask them to say a word like bag,

like bag, like yeah, like a thing you put things in, right?

How would you say that word?

That would be bag.

Bag?

It sounds like you're made to say Mary.

That would be a bag.

Yeah.

Oh, I see.

Any other Wisconsin things

you want to bring up to humiliate your partner on stage?

Any proper noun.

Like, because she's saying words, right?

It's no names.

Any names she says wrong.

I'm not trying to shame.

How do you say the name of the actor Ed Bagley Jr.

Bague, right?

Ed Bagley Jr., right?

Sure.

Ed Bagley Jr., who I totally know who that is.

Wow.

Oh, I lost the crowd favor so quickly.

Wow-ee.

Someone's not doing enough about the climate crisis.

That's right.

Somewhere in the world, Christopher Guest is showing emotion for once.

Just kidding, Christopher Guest.

I love you if you hear this part.

I can't think of a person.

Let's go.

So there was one person yelling in the crowd that in Sleepy Hollow, you do say Mario Mario.

Who is the one who said,

who takes that position?

They're not speaking up anymore.

What?

What, what, what, what?

No.

I know someone yelled, no.

I'm getting to you, person.

Someone did yell yes.

You heard it, right?

I heard it.

Who was the one who

yelled yes?

They've left in shame.

Now, vocal person halfway down in the back in the darkness who yelled no.

Are you from Westchester County?

Are you from Sleepy Hollow?

Right, okay.

Tell you what, we'll go to the audience when it's time.

What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor, Christy?

I would like you to rule that he should stop saying this name incorrectly and also just to admit that he's wrong.

Why would you resist that judgment?

So my only thing is I actually do pronounce like when I think about like the actor Mario Lopez.

Sure.

I have to actually

think about him a lot.

Sure, yeah.

Oddly, especially recently.

But I have to actually think about that and make myself make that change in pronunciation, which is like fine.

I'm super okay with doing that for a real person.

I just don't think that the distinction between fictional character and real human is one where I need to like

worry about.

But why do you say that?

That's lazy, pal.

Sorry.

That's lazy.

You don't want to start.

You know what I mean?

Who have you spent more time with, Slater or Mario?

Yeah, good point.

What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor, Andrew?

I mean, the general ruling would be just stop rolling your eyes when I do it and just like, don't worry about it.

How often is this even happening?

Surprisingly often.

Why are you always going around the apartment going, it's me, Mario?

Sometimes I'm like, do you want to play some Mario Kart?

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't like go around like why is Mario Kart so much worse than Super Mario World?

It was a bumper.

I don't know why.

So, but the mean ruling would be they have to say

bag.

Every time they say the word bag,

they have to pronounce it that way.

So you get Mario.

You get to say Mario.

Wait.

Not like forever, but like, I don't know, the next two weeks when they say the word.

Two weeks of bag?

Yes.

To understand how it actually means.

You're going to get two weeks of bag.

I don't even know what that means.

I don't either, but I'm scared.

Doesn't sound good.

Sounds better than two weeks of bag, though.

No offense.

I love a Wisconsin accent.

Here's what I think.

I'm loath to

try to stamp out regionalism in how people speak.

The way that people grow up speaking in different accents is

a fascinating reminder that we're a big country with a lot of different experiences.

And also, trying to wipe out

regionalisms in speech often is pretty discriminatory, and it's saying that people are stupid because they don't talk the way I talk.

But Christy makes a good point.

If Mario were here, and it's pretty clearly pronounced Mario,

I don't, that's, yes.

It's also important to respect how humans wish to be,

you know, how their names are pronounced and how they wish to be spoken of in the world and referred to in the world.

Sadly, little Mario isn't here to defend himself.

I am going to, it's not like me to split the baby, but I'm in a different mindset these days normally.

You have Disney Plus?

You know I do.

I do.

You guys see the Star Wars shower and or

Andor?

I did.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My feeling is, and/or, why not both?

When referring to the

soon-to-be

when referring to the soon-to-be sentient being known as Mario, you must say Mario, as in, it's a me, Mario, or look at Mario driving so swiftly in his Mario cart.

When referring to his cart, you may say Mario.

But if only out of consistency, the hobgoblin of minds I like.

Since you say Wario, say it's a me, Mario.

Mario cart is acceptable and you can say bag, beg, but do get to know the work of Ed Bagley Jr.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Christy and Andrew, welcome Adrienne and Claire.

Adrienne brings the case against her girlfriend, Claire.

Adrienne says her dog, Rosie, has hands.

Claire says dogs only have feet.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

We have not met before, so I'm Adrienne, are you on my left?

Raise your hand if your name is Adrienne.

Adrienne, am I pronouncing that correctly?

Okay.

Yes.

Adrienne, you claim that dogs have hands.

Is that correct?

I believe that my dog has cute hands.

Okay.

So noted.

Clarification noted.

What do other dogs have?

Dirty stumps?

You know, I think I'm only concerned with my dog

and her cute hands.

All right.

Not my dog's nasty flappers.

What is the name of your dog?

Rosie.

Rosie, okay.

What makes you feel that Rosie has hands

where others, including the person you share your life with, would say otherwise?

So it's about how she presents them to the world,

which is usually in this type of configuration.

So, for the listeners at home,

it's a proffered cross-paw configuration, which is very adorable to see.

And also, how she uses them.

Which is, I'm sure, to sketch drawings, do jigsaw puzzles, smoke sigs, pop

so she can shake with her right and her left hand.

She's ambidextrous.

Yes.

All right.

She uses her hands like this when she tries to, you know, eat a toy, use a bone,

eat a carrot.

For the listener at home, Adrienne is making the shape of the double face hugger

to indicate how Rosie uses her quote-unquote hands to lift what food to her mouth or hold balls or something.

I could put her in the middle of the house.

Toys, carrots, but

using them to put food in her car.

I couldn't believe that you had said carrots.

Carrots.

She eats a lot of carrots

in her day.

It's very obvious from the gesture you were making that your dog is eating hoagies.

How sure are we it's a dog?

Not to be that guy.

Good question, David Borey.

Claire, how sure are we it's a dog?

90%, I think.

90%.

Yeah.

I noticed that Adrienne refers to Rosie as her dog.

Is it a shared dog or is it...

No, it's very firmly her dog.

Right.

And why does Rosie have not hands, but feet, which is also debatable.

She spends a lot of time walking on them.

Uh-huh, okay.

So that's a lot of it.

I mean, I would think that opposable thumbs are pretty much de rigueur.

Yeah, I think it's important to recognize when we talk about typical hands.

Certainly, lots of people have hands and don't have thumbs, of course.

But I'm saying that's kind of how we basically baseline define hands, right, Claire?

Yeah, I think it's really important to recognize that raccoons have very cute hands.

But and that's a distinction, you know.

But raccoons' hands are also nasty flappers.

That's true, big nasty flappers.

Oh, hold on.

Yeah, I just got some news.

We actually had a completely different set of people send in this exact same dispute.

It's a big Colorado problem.

Please welcome Rachel to the stage.

Welcome Rachel to the stage.

Rachel, you sent in the same dispute?

Yes, I did.

But about a different dog?

Yes.

What is the name of the dog you sent in your dispute about?

My husband's and my dog name is Angus.

Angus.

Okay, I heard something different now and Angus.

Right, got it.

Got it.

Okay, Angus.

Do you know Claire and Adrienne?

No.

What is happening?

And where is your husband?

He's working tonight, unfortunately.

And where is your dog?

With my parents.

Does your dog have hands?

I like to think that hands can be a conditional state depending on what my dog is doing.

This is going crazy.

I think this is part of the airport horse's plan.

What are the conditions under which your dog's paws magically transform into hands in a kind of like Catholic miracle way?

Angus also likes to hold bones while he's chewing them.

Hold bones?

How often does he hold carrots?

He doesn't like like vegetables very much.

I see.

And your husband disagrees with you?

Yes.

He would refer to those front appendages as feet.

Feet.

Since he's not here to make his case, Claire, it falls to you to make the case for the world.

Why is it important to establish that these dogs,

Angus and Rosie, and perhaps other dogs in Colorado, do not have hands?

I think it's really important for creatures that have hands to have that distinction.

So humans and, I don't know, raccoons as well.

You've been sent by the raccoons.

That's exactly correct, yes.

Bought and paid for by the raccoon lobby.

I wouldn't put it past them.

You found me out.

Do you know we have an apartment in Brooklyn, New York, a metropolitan, large metropolitan area, David Borey?

I've heard

And our apartment is on the ground floor, and we have a little a sliding door that leads out to a little a little bit of green space.

Okay, like a backyard?

Like not a backyard, but like a postage stamp of green.

Okay, like

your bins out there and stuff.

Say it again.

You have your bins out there?

Your bins, like my bins.

You recycle your trash bins.

No, no, no, no.

We don't keep trash out there.

Oh, it's just like this.

This is New York.

They keep trash in big piles on the sidewalk for some reason.

They've figured out everything else about being awesome, except for that.

They keep it next to the peak.

I only make the distinction because this is, you know, for the reason in the story, you'll understand, this is not a place where we store trash.

Okay.

This is just a little tiny little miniature garden.

And of a summer evening,

my wife was a whole human being in our own right, and I were playing the game Scrabble.

And we had the sliding door open, but the screen door shut, you know, to let in the air.

And we heard,

and we looked over, and

this little

furry, monstrous hand

had slid the screen door open,

and a raccoon walked halfway into our apartment in New York City,

looked around,

and then backed out.

And as it was backing out, it said, I hope you can know I can kill you at any time.

I mean, you're lucky it backed out because I know traditional raccoon law, and that would have been his apartment.

That's true, exactly.

He would have just been able to kill him.

Adverse raccoon possession.

Yeah,

that's an old case.

You don't want your dogs to have hands.

Hands are the tools of monsters.

Look at the world we live in.

All the

hands I know have hands.

I don't want any creeps taking advantage of this information, but David Borey, I'll tell you in confidence right now.

Thank you.

Jesse and I are staying at a hotel in Denver that used to be a vocational school and is now a boutique hotel.

Oh yeah,

I know what you're talking about.

This country's doing great.

We're going to be just fine because they're fixing up the schools.

Yeah.

Let's turn it.

Was that bleak?

I'm sleeping in a classroom where people used to learn how to design bridges and roads.

They could get a middle-class life building infrastructure in this country.

All I'm doing is watching Don't Worry, Darling, at 2 a.m., eating a bunch of Pringles to do a podcast.

The country's doing great.

You know why?

Hands.

I'm being sarcastic.

Hands.

You don't want hands.

Dogs don't want hands.

That's why they have paws.

This This is the sound of the gap.

Thank you, Adrienne, Claire, and Rachel.

Welcome, Caroline and Erin.

Caroline brings the case against her girlfriend, Erin.

Erin wants Caroline to accept part ownership of her cat.

Caroline says that cat is Aaron's.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Who seeks justice in this court?

I do.

Caroline.

And you are Caroline.

Yes.

So what's happening here?

You have a cat.

Erin

has a cat.

Erin's family adopted this cat in 2015.

Erin and I met in the fall of 2020.

Okay.

Erin wants me to accept this cat as mine now that we have moved in together.

Well, congratulations on moving in together.

I hope you're having a great time.

Yes.

Erin, why do you want Caroline to adopt your cat?

I think it's cruel not to.

Why?

Well, my cat.

The cat doesn't care.

The cat barely knows you're alive.

That's not true.

She's a very affectionate cat.

Cats can

be affectionate.

They know you're alive.

They're waiting for you to die.

So they pinned you.

Get that sweet cheek meat, you know?

Barbacone.

So.

Our dear cat Prudence.

Yes.

Our dear Prudence.

Dear Prudence, yes.

Not as in the column, but as in the cat.

Right.

Our dear Prudence,

I.

Is that the cat's full name, our dear Prudence?

Just Prudence, but she is our dear cat Prudence.

Well, no, she's your dear cat Prudence.

ODP,

until I order joint custody, apparently.

Which I do hope you will.

So tell me about our dear cat Prudence.

Our dear cat Prudence.

So I, during quarantine, lived completely alone in an apartment.

I was supposed to have a roommate, didn't have a roommate, and I was very lonely.

And so my mom offered to just send the cat with me.

Right.

And so I took the cat and I decided that I loved the cat so much and having her in my home so much that she should just be my cat.

And my mom was like, cool, she's your cat.

She was allergic to cats anyway.

It seems to me you're answering a question I didn't ask.

I didn't ask how is it that this wonderful cat, your dear prudence, come into your life, but why do you want Caroline to be a co-parent to it?

And how is it cruel that she isn't?

Well, this is part of it.

The time that I brought the cat to my apartment and she officially became my cat was about a week before we met.

Okay.

Right, so she wasn't really my cat until about, right around the time that we got to know each other.

And

as Erin likes to tell people, I essentially moved in about a week after we met.

Yes.

So you are identifying your relationship as with the cat and with Caroline as happening all at once.

Essentially.

It's the formation of a kind of frupple.

Yes, me and my dear girlfriend and our cat.

Yes.

It sounds extremely wholesome to me, honestly.

It's fantastic.

But you're saying the cat and Caroline came into your life around the same time, so why shouldn't there be a bond?

Yeah, so essentially, I mean, the cat and Caroline came into my life at the same time.

And also,

around the time that, you know, Caroline came into my life and she decided to make me her partner long term and now we live together.

She knew that the cat came with that.

She knew that the cat was part of the deal, and so if she didn't want a cat, I probably wasn't the right person to be dating.

Whoa.

This got heavy quick.

She's really good at that.

Sorry.

Essentially,

you are making an ultimatum.

No.

You must count this cat as your own, or we are not meant to be, is what you're saying.

No, not necessarily.

No, no, but I'm just saying it probably wasn't, you know.

Not in so many words.

Yes.

But in about the same number of words and meaning the same thing.

Well.

I can see.

That's a fairly emotionally manipulative thing to do, Erin, if I may say.

Caroline, why do you hate this cat?

So I very much love Prudence.

It's just this was a cat that was part of Erin's life for, you know, five years before we met.

And I feel like, if anything, I am a step parent to her.

And while I love her very much, I have no familial emotions.

Classic stepmom move.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like syndrome.

It's real.

I mean, you have to enter into a blended family delicately.

You can't just be like, this is your new mommy.

Exactly.

You know what I mean?

Exactly.

Have you thought about making the cat live in a tower

till its hair grows long enough for someone to climb up and marry it?

Or at least send it to boarding school.

So you guys can party.

Erin, normally we would be able to show photos of the pets that we discuss on this show.

Right now we don't have that capability, so I need you to paint a word picture of prudence.

Tell me what Prudence

looks like

in a typical Prudence pose.

Yeah, so she's a domestic long-haired cat

with long, fluffy gray fur and some white spots.

And her favorite way to be is to lounge very elegantly,

to look like a queen wherever she goes, and also to sometimes just roll over on her back and just show off her belly to the entire world and stay like that for two hours.

Because belly up is very elegant.

Yes.

Whoa.

It is when she does it.

Don't judge.

You find this cat disgusting.

I was.

I was just caught up in this beautiful word painting of this wonderful cat.

But it seems as though you do not, you're like,

that's not ladylike, dear.

Listen to your new mommy.

we eat dinner at the table together do you that would be cool sometimes she likes to jump up there with us yeah of course but how else does she like to cuddle with Caroline yes yes she does indeed she Caroline is this true or false this is true she's very affectionate as Aaron said and when she gets up on your lap or whatever do you just put your arms aside and stare into the middle distance

expressing no emotional

as I said I I love her very much I will pet her I will caress her.

I am not the kind of person who will like fawn over her and like my heart melts, but like I'll pet the cat if she sits in my lap.

That all sounds pretty reasonable.

I mean, what more do you want from Caroline?

I want maybe

a little bit more responsibility for the cat and her needs than what we're currently seeing.

I heard someone in the audience say with cynical finality, cat box.

Yes.

There was a point.

Is this a cat box cleaning dispute?

You want Caroline to clean the cat box?

I don't think it necessarily should be boiled down to that, but there was a point where Caroline did say to me,

see, see, Erin, I love the cat, but if I claim her as my own, that means I have to help clean the litter box.

That's true.

And that seems to be her only reasoning for not wanting to partially adopt the cat.

And a damn good reason it is.

Hold on, hold on.

Now, I will mention we also have a dog and we live in an apartment, okay?

We take the dog out.

What is the name of this dog that you didn't even care to mention earlier?

Tuna.

Tuna.

Yes, our dear tuna.

Whose dog is tuna?

Ours.

Oh,

wow.

Wow.

We adopted tuna a year and a half.

Oh, no.

No, my math is wrong.

Seven months after we met.

Okay, but you adopted tuna together.

Together.

Aaron is insistent that we didn't, but we did.

Can you paint, Caroline, can you paint a word picture of Tuna for me?

Yes, Tuna is a scrap of a dog.

She is a 10-pound Terrier Mix, coarse gray, and she only has three legs.

We don't have pictures of this fing dog.

I sent that.

Jesse, I don't want to outset you, but this is sorry, Julie.

She sounds like a real scruffy dog.

Richard, when we said we didn't have enough money to pay for the projector, you didn't tell me there was a scruffy, three-legged finger.

Jesus fing Christ.

No, I'm hurt too.

Because, David, she said it's a terrier mix and I said, oh, is it going to be scruffy?

She said, yeah, it's really scruffy.

And then she said it has three fing lenses.

It's a tripod f ⁇ ing dog and I can't see it.

No, all I want to do is see it.

Now, Caroline.

Yes.

Without referring to your notes or your phone, can you describe Prudence?

Yes, Prudence is a cat who is almost exactly the same size as Tuna.

She has huge yellow eyes.

I've heard enough.

You describe your cat first

in comparison to the dog?

Yes.

You love that dog and you're ambivalent about that cat.

I am not ambivalent about the cat.

I just maybe I love the dog a little bit more.

Fair.

Well, somebody think of the children.

I appreciate your honesty.

Now, who walks the dog?

Both of us.

And I presume in Denver you pick up that poop?

We actually are about an hour outside of Denver, but yes, we do.

Right.

Okay, good.

And would you say that that is equally shared, those responsibilities, Erin?

Yes.

Yes.

So the only thing outstanding is that you have this elegant creature that poops in a box in your bathroom.

Yes.

And that's the problem.

You want Caroline to clean up the cat box.

I want her to claim the cat as her own with me, and part of that happens to be the litter box, yes.

And if she does not claim the cat as her own and clean the litter box, then it means she doesn't love you enough.

It means she doesn't love prudence enough.

And

maybe a little bit by extension, me.

David Borey, what do you think about this?

This is complicated.

As someone who has a stepdad he's not a fan of, I'm going to say you guys probably got to do it like we did in my house and you're going to have to fist fight that cat.

We're cool now.

If

there was no tuna,

if there was no shared dog,

then I would feel very comfortable saying, sorry, Aaron,

you and Prudence are a bonded pair, and you can't force a cat upon someone else.

But since you have,

and I hate to say this,

a fur child together already,

it is not fair.

It is the stuff of the am I the asshole Reddit

for you to come out and say this is our shared dog and that is her cat

Because the thing is, animals are not humans, fur babies are animal companions, not babies that you have.

Sorry, I'm going to get jumped outside of the

side of the former vocational school.

Animals are not your children, but they are deeply, deeply sensitive creatures, obviously.

And I happen to know that if a cat senses unfairness in your house, there shall be vengeance,

probably in the form of toxoplasmosis.

Unless there is a medical reason for not cleaning the cat box,

I think it would be nice for you to do it once

a year.

Otherwise,

take good care of your cat, Caroline.

She is part of your family just as Aaron is.

And I hope that you all have an enjoyable time together here and outside of Colorado, where you still pick up the poop.

Aaron and Caroline.

That's it for this week's episode.

Thank you to everybody who joined us on stage at the Gothic Theater.

in Denver.

We are so grateful to all of our litigants who come and perform as part of our live shows.

And a very special thank you to our friend, now Denver-based comedian, David Borey.

David is not just a brilliant stand-up comic and not just a voice you hear sometimes if you subscribe to Paramount Plus.

Oh, really?

Yeah,

he does.

He voices things on Paramount Plus.

I think he's the voice of Comedy Central now.

That's incredible.

Kyle Kinnane has ceded it to David Borey.

Yeah, there was a ceremony.

Yeah, a brilliant stand-up comic.

He's also a hilarious podcaster.

If you've never heard the podcast All Fantasy Everything with Bory and Ian Carmel and Sean Jordan, they are so funny.

They do fantasy drafts of everything.

And Bory now has his own podcast called My Mama Told Me with Langston Kerman.

It is an investigation into black conspiracy theories, which I think is a fascinating subject.

Love it.

Love it.

Love it.

Langston, also crazy funny.

But yeah, Bory, one of the funniest dudes ever.

So go check out My Mama Told Me and All Fantasy Everything.

My Mama Told Me and All Fantasy Everything.

Evidence and photos from our show posted on our Instagram account at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

Follow us there.

Join the conversation about this week's episode on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com.

Thanks to Reddit user Scrotel Migraine for naming this episode's case.

Buy me subpoenas and Cracker Jack.

Can't deny that, genius.

Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode, recorded by our friend Matthew Barnard, produced by Valerie Moffat, Richard Roby, and Jennifer Marmer.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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