Live from Portland, OR

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

This episode was recorded live at Revolution Hall in Portland, Oregon.

It was another stop on our frontier justice tour of the West, and it featured the great Corin Tucker of Slater Kinney.

So let's go to the stage at Revolution Hall.

Portland, Oregon, you've come to us desperate for justice, and we're here at Revolution Hall to deliver it.

Let's bring out our first set of litigants.

Please welcome Alan and Christy.

Tonight's case, Brocco leading the witness.

Alan brings the case against his wife, Christy.

Alan wants to introduce broccoli into the diet of their 14-month-old daughter.

Christie has a phobia of broccoli.

and doesn't want any in the house unless she's out of town.

Alan wants to serve it to their daughter more frequently.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Well, you know, in the Dark Phoenix saga, Jean Gray destroyed a whole planet in the guise of Dark Phoenix in order to power herself, leading to her execution by the Shire Empire.

And the people who lived on that planet, they were never named, but are commonly known among comic book fans as the Broccoli people.

But I'm not sure that anyone else is going to get that one.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Alan and Christy, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that earlier on he not only made a there's a lot of food trucks in Portland joke, but he also immediately undercut it?

Absolutely.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Alan and Christy, you may be seated for an immediate summary.

Judgments in one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced while I entered the courtroom?

Alan, why don't you go first?

It sounds Alan, have you seen the Star Wars show Andor?

I have not seen the Star Wars show Andor.

No, really?

Christy, have you seen it?

I have not.

Okay, never mind.

Anyway,

do you have a guess?

It sounds like a Patton Oswald monologue from a show I have not seen.

It sounds like a Patton Oswald monologue from a show Alan has never seen.

I'm writing that down now.

Christy?

What is your guess, if I may ask?

I have no idea, but I'm going to go with what I know right now with the 14-month-old.

So I'm going to say tag from Go Dog Go.

Season three.

Oh.

Sounds more like first season before they really dialed in the character, but

all guesses are wrong.

I was quoting for my friend and fellow Maximum Fun podcaster Elliot Kalen from a telephone call I had with him today

as I walked back from the laundromat

here in Portland, Oregon.

saying, I need a cultural reference for broccoli.

If I quote Albert Cubby Broccoli, the producer of the James Bond movies, am I going to be canceled?

And Elliot said, I don't know about that, but, and then he said that long sentence, do you know what comic book the Dark Phoenix Saga was in?

I do not.

Wow.

Christy?

I do not.

All right.

I'm frankly a little alarmed by the lack of gasping, but that's fine.

You can look it up when you get home.

Let's get to the case in the meantime.

Needless to say that when we broadcast this podcast, there are going to be men screaming

at their phones.

And luckily, they shall never be heard.

Anyway,

who seeks justice in this court before me?

I do.

Alan, what is the nature of the justice you seek?

You want to feed this broccoli to your child?

I do.

So we try to introduce a couple new vegetables a week into her diet in different preparations.

Okay.

Most she doesn't like.

Saffile, omelette.

Yeah, saute, roast.

Okay.

Whatever works.

And one week I brought home some broccoli.

Right.

And we never have it because I know that Christy does not like broccoli.

Does not like broccoli or has a stronger adverse relationship with broccoli?

Well, this is why I'm asking Christy.

Much stronger than distaste.

Much stronger than distaste.

Phobia level.

Phobia level.

And describe how you feel when broccoli is around you.

It feels a little embarrassing.

Maybe that's too.

No, I thought I was triggering you.

I apologize.

No.

So there's definitely some physical anxiety symptoms, like my heart races a little bit, tightens up in my chest.

So that's part of it, but mainly it's like strong disgust.

Like I need to get away from it.

Has that always been the case for you?

As long as I can remember.

Really?

Yeah.

And did your parents try to make you eat broccoli?

You know, they never, they probably asked me to try it.

They never forced anything.

But I remember it being in our house a lot.

My dad really liked broccoli.

It was always steamed.

And so this

smell was so strong.

It's gross.

It's disgusting.

It's gross.

Yeah.

You never believe a vegetable could fart, but now you realize

you weren't expecting it from broccoli, but of course.

May I ask, what do you do for a living?

I am a clinical psychologist.

And

I specialize in

cognitive behavioral therapy for

people with anxiety and traumatic stress disorders.

So it would be fair to say that you know whereof you speak.

But you don't toss around phobic level lightly.

I don't.

Can you describe what it is about broccoli?

I mean, the smell we've established is farty.

Can you describe what it is about broccoli that you just gets you the wrong way?

I have a phobia, and I didn't know about it until they closed the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea ride at Walt Disney World, which I had been in once as a kid, and I remember leaving with a very disquieted feeling because robots should not be underwater.

That's not where they belong.

And when they closed it, everyone started posting videos of their ride on

that fake submarine through that lagoon of Westworld androids.

And I felt my heart racing and I felt every hair on my arms and neck stand up.

And I had to turn, I closed the thing.

And to this day, I still feel I might fall into that lagoon full of robots at any moment if I take a wrong step on the stage

I just would know that they're down there reaching for me that's how I describe my phobia how would you describe your phobia of broccoli

and let the record show Alan's still here too

I think So the odor is a big part of it, but the visual is as much of the disgust and like anxiety response for me.

Like there's just something about those tiny green little flecks.

Yeah.

And they're bunched up and they get everywhere.

They're like little polyps even.

Little growths.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like I remember as a kid, if they used the same knife to cut the broccoli and then sliced my apple and there was one of those little green pieces on it, it was done.

Like I couldn't eat it.

Yeah.

This is probably why your parents didn't allow you to read the Dark Phoenix saga in X.

Potentially.

Like they were doing you a service.

Doctor, hast thou ever considered healing thyself?

Not in this area.

No.

What would it take for you, if you were counseling someone who wanted to eat broccoli or be around broccoli while their daughter was being nourished?

What counsel would you offer?

I feel like I want to disagree with the dispute a little bit because I am willing to work on this.

Okay.

So what Alan submitted was that I was unwilling, and I'm open to this.

I'm open to facing this fear.

Oh, your husband spoke for you and interpreted your feelings for you?

Well, this is a very unusual case, Jesse Constantine.

I think we're charting some new legal territory.

So I do want to say I am open to working on this, but my disagreement with him him is how he went about this,

which was monstrous.

You're saying that the way...

He told her it was an airplane, goddammit!

She couldn't let those people die.

You're saying the way that Alan introduced broccoli was monstrous.

Yes.

Alan,

how did you introduce?

Here's my guess.

You dressed up as broccoli

and hid in a closet till she came home,

feeling that you would shock her out of her phobia.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

Jesse, the reviews are in.

My new super soft hoodie from Quince that I got at the beginning of the summer is indeed super soft.

People cannot stop touching me and going, that is a soft sweatshirt.

And I agree with them.

And it goes so well with my Quince overshirts that I'm wearing right now, my beautiful cotton Piquet overshirts and all the other stuff that I've gotten from Quince.

Why drop a fortune on basics when you don't have to?

Quince has the good stuff.

High-quality fabrics, classic fits, lightweight layers for warm weather, and increasingly chilly leather, all at prices that make sense.

Everything I've ordered from Quince has been nothing but solid.

And I will go back there again and buy that stuff with my own money.

John, you know what I got from Quince?

I got this beautiful linen double flap pocket shirt that's sort of like an adventure shirt.

And I also got a merino wool polo shirt.

Oh.

It's like a mid-gray, looks good underneath anything, perfect for traveling.

Because with merino wool,

it basically rejects your stink.

You know what I mean?

It's a stink-rejecting technology, John.

It says, get thee behind me, stink.

Yeah, exactly.

And, you know, honestly, even if I do need to wash it, I can just wear it in the shower when I'm traveling and then

roll it in a towel and it's pretty much ready to go.

Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes.

Quince has wonderful clothes for women, men, kids, babies.

They have travel stuff.

They have gifts.

They have quilts and bedspreads.

They've got everything.

Go over there and find out for yourself.

Keep it classic and cool with long-lasting staples from Quince.

Go to quince.com slash JJ H.O for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash JJ H O to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

Quince.com slash JJ O.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

The brace short ribs, made in, made in.

The Rohan Duck Riders of Rohan, made in, made in.

That heritage pork chop that you love so much, you got it.

It was made in, made in.

But made in isn't just for professional chefs.

It's for home cooks too.

And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with made-in cookware.

It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable than some of the other high-end brands.

We're both big fans of the carbon steel.

I have a little

carbon steel skillet that my mother-in-law loves to use because cast iron is too heavy for her, but she wants that non-stick.

And I know that she can.

you know she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot uh she can use it to braise if she wants to use it to braise.

It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

And it will last a long time.

And whether it's griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware, I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be getting back to my beloved made-in entree bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable because they sell it directly to you.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made in, made in.

For full details, visit madeincookwear.com.

That's m-a-d-e-i-n cookware.com.

Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

How did you actually introduce broccoli, Alan?

You're not a monster, are you?

I purchased a head of broccoli at the Fred Meyer.

And I put it in the refrigerator.

I believe you have some evidence that you shared with us, some photographic evidence.

An artist depiction.

How did you get my friend Dan from college's phone number?

I contend that this representation is inaccurate and that I only purchased one head of broccoli.

I remember more more heads of broccoli.

Let the record show

that this

manipulated image

shows a CRISPR drawer in a refrigerator entirely full of broccoli.

I will also, for those of you listening at home, you can see this photo on maximumfund.org on our Instagram page at JudgeJohn Hodgman.

where you will get to see the exact brand of refrigerator I have.

This is uncanny.

So this is an artist's representation.

You had one head of broccoli in the refrigerator.

And then you said to Christy, go open the refrigerator.

I got you a surprise.

At the time, I did not know this was a phobia level.

How long have you been married?

11 and a half years.

Oh, I see.

That's true.

Had the subject ever come up before in your life?

I knew she didn't like it, so I never brought it home.

That's very kind of you.

Until you had a daughter, and then you're like, I'm bringing that broccoli.

It's been more than a decade.

I'm finally going to bring that broccoli back into the house and put it in the refrigerator.

Tired of being controlled.

After the fifth sweet potato preparation, I was ready to stretch.

You have another piece of evidence that you submitted.

Let me see that, please.

Oh,

this is Ada.

Does the city of Portland Portland give your children these hats?

No, but it's a great idea.

It's a perfect black watch cap in the Oregon style.

You should give her a fake beard.

That would be fun.

All right.

Take the cuteness away.

I care about it.

Can I have some chocolate?

She does love cheese.

So

tell me how you felt when you saw the broccoli in the refrigerator, Christy.

It was not good.

So Alan didn't give me any warning, any notice.

I remember more than one head of broccoli.

It filled the CRISPR, like all the way.

So I got got home, it was the end of the day, it was a long day.

Sure.

And I go into the kitchen and I open the fridge and there it is like staring at me.

Sure.

With its many, many tiny green eyes.

It was terrible.

It was terrible.

And it felt, I think, especially intrusive in my home.

Because it's true.

We've been like a broccoli-free family for 15 years.

There's never been broccoli in my house.

And so it totally caught me off guard to see it for one.

I was like shocked.

Right.

Totally disgusted.

Did you feel betrayed?

A little bit.

I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but did you say that?

You know, Alan is usually a very thoughtful guy.

And I was shocked that he would do this without telling me.

What do you think about Alan's argument that he didn't realize exactly how repulsed you were by broccoli?

Do you think that that's possible, that he didn't know?

I think it is unlikely.

I don't think this is something that I hide.

Was it in your vows?

It was not a part of our vows.

Because if you felt really strongly about it, you might have.

I mean, I don't want to critique, look, you seem happily married, but you could do it all over again, I would advise.

Yes, Jesse, what were you saying?

No one reads the licensing agreement.

Alan, how do you feel hearing Christy describe her reaction this way?

Proud of yourself?

I obviously never would have done it this way if I had known that this was a good idea.

Here you sit.

What way then do you propose you do do it

going forward from here by whatever terms you and her would like to establish?

This isn't apology hour

with your therapist,

although I accept your apology.

Well, I know there is a way to approach phobias, but I'm not the expert in doing so.

I was waiting for you to say that.

What do you do for a living, if I may ask?

A software developer.

So,

Christy, I would presume you would like there to be no broccoli.

That would be the easiest.

That would be the ideal.

How are you with the other vegetables in the Nebraska family?

How do you feel about cauliflower?

Not great, but not as disgusting as it is.

It looks like a pale brain.

It's gross.

What about Brussels sprouts?

They smell bad.

They do.

I can have them on my plate.

I can eat maybe one or two, and that's it.

As long as you don't have to eat an apple that was sliced for the same night.

What about broccolini?

It's too close.

Too close.

It's anything with those green florets.

Yes.

Do you eat vegetables otherwise?

I do.

What's your favorite other vegetable?

Don't wait for the translation.

Answer the question.

I like asparagus.

Asparagus?

That's one of the stinkiest.

Depending on if you have that gene.

Sorry, John, I I am totally hung up on the fact that in Portland, asparagus is an applause line.

These are all wonderful vegetables, some of which Christy is more tolerant of than others.

None of them are broccoli.

Why not just not do broccoli?

I mean, it's a superfood.

We all get it.

But so's kale.

You okay with kale?

Yes, but I prefer it raw, not

cooked or steamed.

Well, okay, but

for your child.

Kale is okay in the house.

That would be okay if you opened your refrigerator and you saw some kale in there.

No problem.

Okay.

So what is it about the broccoli that why don't you just say no broccoli?

I guess we could, but I feel like

I really want to make the rounds of vegetables to see what she likes.

And if she really likes it, then it'd be one more vegetable in the arsenal.

All right, you know what?

That's a reasonable answer, to my surprise.

No, no, you're fine.

Christy, you said that you are willing to work on this.

In what way are you willing to work on this?

I am willing to work on this with me being the one that gets to decide how I go about this.

So I get to choose like the exposure practices, I get to choose the timeline.

And how, and

if you had a patient

whom you were advising, what would you advise?

What would the practice be?

I mean, I think I would first work on sort of the why.

Why is it important for you to do this so we can have that in front of us the whole time because it's hard and uncomfortable.

And then we would come together on sort of what their ultimate goal is and come up with lots of little steps to

create a fear hierarchy basically.

Let me follow up with a question.

Why?

Why is it important for you to do this?

To work on this?

Yeah, why is it important for you to work on this?

Thank you.

Great phrasing.

I should have thought of that.

I mean, I think

there's a little bit of embarrassment for this, for me.

And so I would like to

do this so I don't have to feel that way.

And also, I feel bad, like blocking Ada from food that she might like.

You know, and Alan is wanting to do this, and

I want to support him in that.

He's been great with getting all of Ada's food together.

He's the cook in our house, and

I don't want to block him from doing that either.

So that's part of my willingness to work on that.

And what are the steps that you foresee taking to get to where you want to be?

I mean, I'd probably have to.

Does it make you uncomfortable to even think about it?

A little bit.

Yeah.

Let's go there anyway together.

This is the way it's going to be.

Like, imagining a first step on this.

This is a perfect environment for a therapeutic.

I agree.

I mean, I would imagine that this is something like your own office.

Pretty much, yeah, exactly.

You know, it may be going to the grocery store and just looking at the broccoli, honestly.

Right.

That might be my first step.

That would be the first step.

Yeah.

And if I were to rule in your favor,

what would you have me rule?

Start with looking at broccoli in the grocery store and then

buying it.

Uh-huh.

Looking at it at my house in my refrigerator.

Right.

Practice cutting it, but not having to do anything else with it.

Because the steamed part is way worse.

So I think starting with raw would be easier for me.

Sure.

I don't know.

I think my ultimate goal is feeling comfortable enough buying it, chopping it, and giving it to Ada, but I don't think I want to work towards ever eating it.

And what do you think is the time frame?

Like roughly, how old is Ada again?

14 months.

So that's a little bit more than a year.

So like 21 years?

I could probably achieve it in that timeline.

Maybe

three to six months.

Three to six months?

I think that's fairly fast.

It might be.

You can hear people are excited.

Alan, this all sounds perfectly reasonable.

It is.

Okay then.

Then what are we doing here?

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision,

given that there has been legal surrender on stage.

Do you have anything that you would like to say before I go into my chambers, which, by the way, contains broccoli?

It's part of our rider.

We ask for cut-up vegetables with some hummus and some, I mean, it's you know, green room garbage.

But the point is,

I want you to know that I will be with broccoli for a period of time, for a little while, but I'm not going to touch it or anything.

I'm not going to like bring it out here and go,

I appreciate that.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you.

Hey, Christy, want some apple slices?

Is there anything you would like to say to me or to Christy before I go into my broccoli-laden chambers to make my decision?

I think I appreciate her openness here.

Oh, that's so sweet.

All right.

I'll be back in a moment to destroy you.

Please rise as Judge John Hoshman exits the courtroom.

Christy, how are you feeling about your chances here?

I'm feeling pretty good.

Are you really ready for this?

I think I am.

Even with all those nasty little florets?

I think I am.

Even all those stinky steams?

Sorry, I don't mean to.

I did mean to.

Alan,

have you ever heard the expression: if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything?

Sorry, I mean, how do you feel about your chances here?

She's been telling me she's going to crush me all day.

And I'm fairly certain it's happened.

You're like, ha ha, not if I crush her myself.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say when he returns.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and delivers his verdict.

First of all,

I just want to say thank you, Christy, for being here and to talk so openly about something that scares you so much.

It's very brave, and you did a great job.

And I also want to say, Alan, you're not a monster.

I mean,

you clearly are someone who, like, there could have been a partner, a spouse, I dare say a husband come on here and say, but broccoli is really good, and I really want it to be a part of the, I think it should be on my terms, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But you obviously have listened to your partner and respect her and

her boundaries in a very kind way, to the point that I feel like there's been some witness tampering.

I feel like someone got to you.

Jesse, I think we need to increase our security measures with our litigants because,

I mean,

you were in our basement all day, I feel like, separated.

That's our procedure.

But I guess maybe you talked to each other because obviously you come to some agreement without my help.

But I will say this.

I think that three to six months is a very ambitious timeframe.

As you know, I am a clinical psychologist

dealing with behavioral issues, cognitive behavioral therapy, and so forth.

I'm not trying to tell you your business, but I'm certainly saying give yourself as much time as you need.

In this regard, I am obviously finding in your favor, and when I bang this gavel, I will say so.

In the meantime, I want to commend you, Alan, for being a good partner and listening and understanding.

Do you have any phobias?

Oh, wait a minute.

Just the usual existential things.

Sure.

It's not a phobia.

You are going to die.

It's going to happen.

But

in the meantime, I hope you enjoy your lives together with broccoli in moderation.

And I just, you know,

I do have to say, Christy, the one place I disagree with you is when you said, I don't want to deny my daughter broccoli.

There are going to be many things that your child speaks to with their clinical psychologist later on about everything you did wrong.

And ultimately, if you decide you can't have have broccoli in the house, you tried and it didn't work, and

you enforce my ban on broccoli in the house, which you have pre-clearance for, should you not get to where you want to be?

I hope that you do, but should you not?

Don't worry, you won't be damaging your daughter, you'll be doing her a favor.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules that is all.

Alan Christie, thanks for joining us on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, Me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please welcome Caleb and Kate.

Caleb brings the case against his friend Kate.

Kate hates NASA and space exploration, and she isn't shy about saying so.

Caleb says space exploration is good and worthwhile.

And he's tired of Kate's constant NASA bashing.

It's pretty on point, actually.

I mean, yeah, fair.

Well, which of you seeks justice in this courtroom?

Who brings the case?

Actually, that's my husband, who's in the third row, who has somehow gotten

both of you up here.

Absolutely, 100,000%.

To talk about this.

Yes.

And is it Kate that I am speaking to now?

Yes, I'm Kate.

Kate, why do you dislike NASA?

Oh, I take it back.

Why do you hate NASA?

A couple of reasons.

Please.

You got time?

No!

That's the whole point here.

Okay.

No, take all the time you need.

Okay, so primarily,

every time I see a headline like NASA awards a $57 million contract to build roads on the moon, I wonder things like, aren't there people who haven't eaten today?

And don't most Americans read at a sixth grade level or lower?

So that's a big part of it.

How do you think we're going to get the moon cheese to market?

That's a supply chain issue.

Sorry, I don't know a lot about this.

I read it at sixth grade level.

Well, and then the second part is:

you know, we have these beautiful telescope images, and we learned from a really young age to reach for the stars, right?

Sure.

Like, literally.

And, you know, we're really lucky that we just have those telescopes floating around up there.

Yeah.

Look, everyone.

Kate's right.

You know, like,

I understand what she is.

I'm not disagreeing with her.

Telescopes get up there somehow, though.

Yeah.

Are you saying the reach for the stars is the wrong message?

Yeah, exactly.

Fair enough.

Like, if we were, like, why don't we explore the rest of the world that we have, maybe we'd figured out how to, like, you know, get garbage bags out of the Mariana Trench or something.

Right.

Reach for the trenches.

Yes.

That's That's fair.

Yeah.

That makes a lot of sense.

Right.

Caleb.

Yes.

You are in favor of space exploration.

Is that right?

I'm in favor of space exploration.

Because you love Elon Musk.

Isn't that true, sir?

Don't wait for the translation.

You love Musk and you hate the trench.

Who doesn't hate a trench, though?

What business do they have?

I don't know.

I mean,

what is your argument for pro-space exploration?

Kate makes a lot of great points about all the things that we need to fix here on Earth.

There's tons of them, but

NASA has developed so many technologies that have helped us.

Light-emitting diodes are a huge one that have helped save electricity in our environment.

And things like artificial limbs for amputees, smoke detectors, fireproof clothing, all this.

The phrase failure is not an option

that haunts me every time I fail.

So, yeah, there's just so many different inventions.

I mean, arguably, we only have Ed Harris because

of NASA.

Yeah, and Tom Hanks as well.

I hadn't even thought of that.

So, yeah, all of her points are really great, but I think it's just maybe a little misguided considering the budget that we spend for other things in our government, such as our military and things like that, to hate on NASA so much when it's so small.

Sure.

What about the pay that goes to those clowns in Congress?

Am I right?

I didn't say it.

Oh, they're always lining their pockets, those clowns in Congress.

Buying more seltzer bottles.

Kate,

NASA

does not have the funding or public support that it used to have.

I mean, truthfully, aren't you kind of kicking a government agency while it's down?

I really do think that they should be protecting us from missiles, missiles, or like not missiles, but like

asteroids.

Thank you.

Sometimes two come at once.

You might have an Armageddon and a deep impact.

Yes, exactly.

And so that makes a lot of sense to me, you know, but just like, you know, they're trying to like,

I don't know, make

all sorts of equipment for people who are at the prime of their health.

And then, you know, we find ancillary benefits that get pushed out to the public.

But if they had spent at least a fraction of the budget, you know, solving problems that we all have here, you know, it would be.

Should there be no space exploration at all?

Not that taxpayers pay for.

Oh, you love Elon Musk.

Corey and Tucker, what do you think of this case?

I think that we have to take into account the amount of movies, the great movies that are made about space exploration.

Good point.

Hey,

have you seen that Star Wars show, Andor,

about space?

No.

It's part of the space wars.

You haven't seen it?

Okay.

No, but I have seen Apollo 13.

Okay.

So we need space exploration for the sheer drama.

I think so.

Right, I understand.

Well, actually, can I take that answer back and supplement it?

Sure, that happens in law all the time.

So it was in the Magna Carta, Baxis.

Maybe, maybe, yes, it's called an amendment.

But

you know.

Ma'am, don't sass the bailiff.

Shut your body hole.

Fair.

There's so many space germs out there, too.

What if we bring something back?

Who knows?

Wait, what did you just say?

Space germs.

She's completely ignoring the pressing issue of trench germs.

Well, we genuinely do have a problem with trench germs.

As the permafrost melts, we're going to be exposed to a whole bunch of sleeping, dorbent, hibernating germs.

But there is also space germs.

I have a new phobia now.

Caleb,

I have a prompt here on this piece of paper that I was given to ask this question.

In your opinion, sir, Is this actually about NASA or is it about Kate hassling you?

Well it's been a long-standing tradition in our friendship to hassle each other, so I'm okay with that.

Yeah.

So but is she hassling you because you love NASA so much?

I think there's some give and take.

I definitely hassle her for her hate of NASA and it's all in good fun, you know.

Kate, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

Okay, I thought about this.

So

I would like you to rule that Caleb and my husband Chris, who submitted this debate, who is sitting in the third row back there

that they wear the records show there are multiple people in the audience pointing at other people

he knows who he is

but if you could rule that they would wear t-shirts that they either buy or

you know design that say there is no planet B out in public, at least once a month for a year.

I think

that would be justice.

Sure.

All right, I'll enter that into my consideration.

Jesse, do you think your friend from college could maybe throw a t-shirt together?

I mean, he'd have to get a little time off his job at PayPal, but yeah.

Okay.

Corin,

what do you think about there is no planet B solution?

I think that's a good point.

That's a good point.

That's a fair.

What would you have me rule, Caleb, then?

Well, I like this clothing idea, but I want Kate's loungewear, her Sunday pajamas, to be NASA pajamas.

Just for when she's relaxed and she can think about it.

That sounds like torture.

Yeah.

That seems unfair.

I don't know, John.

A lot of those pajamas glow in the dark.

That's pretty cool.

What other technologies do we have?

Do we have Velcro because of NASA?

Everyone out here the whole time he was just going, say Tang, say Tang, say Tang, say Tang.

I know, I was going to say Tang, but I haven't seen Tang anywhere.

Is it still make it?

So here's the thing.

They didn't develop Tang for the space program, and that's why they wanted him to say it, so they could correct him.

That's what they get off on.

Corin Tucker, did you ever have Tang growing up?

Oh, yes.

I loved it.

I know, me too.

You know what I liked?

Just eating the powder.

We all did it.

Right?

I don't even think they make it anymore.

Oh, you're still here.

Hello,

Kate and Caleb.

Have either of you seen the

Star Wars TV show

called Andor?

Yeah.

Because it's called Andor.

But I have this idea for a tagline or a motto for the show that is also my ruling.

Why not both?

Massive pajamas and there is no planet B.

I love it.

We, as a planet, can should be able to do both, take care of the trenches and explore the stars.

We may need them.

So that's my ruling.

I split the baby in half.

Tang.

Caleb and

Jesus.

Please welcome Greg and Whitney.

Greg brings the case against his wife, Whitney.

Their family has a shared Google calendar.

When Whitney adds events to the calendar, she often sets an early start time to accommodate travel.

Sometimes she does, and sometimes she doesn't.

Oh.

Whitney says this practice keeps the family punctual.

Greg says it's confusing.

Greg Whitney, welcome to the program.

Which one of you seeks justice?

Greg, it's you?

It is I.

Whitney sometimes puts things in the the calendar with travel time included.

Yes.

Is it marked as travel time?

No.

Aha.

What sort of things?

For instance, if we're going to go to a movie, maybe that movie starts at 7.15.

It would just be in the calendar as maybe 6.30.

Now,

she will tell you that she will also put the starting time in the notes.

Correct.

So you can look and see, okay, 6.30, that's when we're going to leave.

Movie starts at 7.15.

fine.

But she's not consistent.

Not consistently.

Sometimes you just don't know.

Whitney, how come

you

schedule things early for travel time sometimes and sometimes you don't?

I would say that it depends on the type of activity that we're going to be.

I am interested in hearing your theories about this.

So a movie, right?

Sure, I've heard of them.

Starts at a specific movie.

He was just talking about them.

It's tongue-tied, Arnold.

It's been a while.

You've never seen a movie in your life, sir.

Don't wait for the translation.

Answer the question.

It's been quite a while since we've seen a movie.

I think it was Star Wars.

Wasn't it an episode of

the Space?

That movie came out in 1977.

We've been married a long time.

They didn't.

They They didn't have Google then.

That's true.

They had public funding for school lunches and NASA.

What time did you set the calendar for this event?

The Judge John Hodgman Live Justice at Revolution Hall in Portland, Oregon.

It started show doors at 7 p.m.

Showtime at 8 p.m.

5 o'clock.

5 p.m.

Where do you live?

the moon?

We live 30 minutes away.

To be fair, John, the roads on the moon are really bad.

That's right.

We need to do something about that.

I know.

We need to requisition some money for those roads.

And I would say that

because I knew that we would be on the show.

There needed to be like we were here early and

a little

buffer time.

Because apparently, my family thinks that they can teleport to places in which if the movie starts at seven sure they don't need to leave the house until 659

and I'm like

you're saying

popcorn yeah we gotta get

wait they have popcorn here no at the movies oh the movies right okay I got excited for a second Corin

What goes on in your family?

Do you share a calendar?

Does this happen?

We have not successfully, we've been married a very long time, but we have not successfully shared a Google calendar.

I put things in it all the time, and my partner is unable to read it.

And we text back and forth, and I'm like, I put it in there.

He's like, nope, nope.

You mean he's unable to read it, or he's unable to subscribe to it?

I think he's very distrustful of Google, right?

Oh.

He even told me he bought a special phone just for Google, and that that's where he was going to read the calendar.

I know you and your husband love each other very much.

I don't think this is a red flag that your husband's buying a second phone

and saying he needs it

to read the Google Calendar.

Well, honey, you leave me no choice.

I need a burner a week.

That's not who your husband is.

I know that.

We hope not.

And I'm impressed that

you follow the Google Calendar and that's a good way to communicate.

I think maybe there's just

like a 10-minute ahead of time kind of general rule.

I'd be happy with any kind of rule.

I mean,

it is an issue.

There is this issue of, do you deny that you are inconsistent in how you apply?

Nope.

So, why?

Okay, let's take a look at the evidence.

Thank you.

Hang on.

I'll do this family feud style.

Show me evidence.

Oh,

that should be the last one.

Excuse me.

We'll go back to that.

That's the last straw.

Making a movie.

We can just go with that one if you like.

I think this is the one that we have.

This is the one.

This is the last straw.

So the evidence shows.

First of all, thanks for sharing all these email addresses.

Yeah.

Well, you know, it says

at GM.

Who knows what that is?

It could be anything.

Thanks, by the way, for sharing it with the at-home audience now.

We'll leave it out and redact it when we post it online.

Let the record show my

submittals were blacked out.

Well, I hope that we'll take a look at those in a moment.

What are you trying to prove here with this?

There are some entries that show a starting time and nothing.

There are some entries that show a starting time on the entry and the starting time of the event.

This one was a brunch we were invited to, which said 11:30, and that's all it said.

When we got to their porch at 11:30 and knocked on the door, I realized, I found out that the brunch was at noon, and they were not ready for us.

They were not dressed.

What have they been up to to prepare for this brunch?

Yeah, I mean, one of them is

serving, sir.

one of them is a midwife.

One of them was a midwife, did you say?

One of them is a midwife and her husband was helping and so they'd been up all night and we're just recovering from that and trying to get ready for our brunch and they weren't dressed and they were racing around getting ready and here we are on their front porch knocking a half hour early for a social engagement which was very embarrassing for me.

And I had no idea because of this ambiguous calendar entry.

How do you respond to this evidence, Whitney?

It happened.

Yep.

I would also say.

But when you're walking up to the porch, at that point, you can take Craig aside and say, I have to tell you something.

We're technically half an hour early.

It was unclear because of the chat.

There was a lot of like, should we start 11.45, 12, 12.15, 12.30, right?

There was backsliding.

And the chat with you and the midwife?

And the

attendees of the brunch.

Yes.

PBS.

Have you ever see the show All Creatures Great and Small?

Yeah.

I don't have a joke for that one.

I just like it.

I just really like the remake.

So, all right.

Nightmare Before Christmas movie with Callens.

What's that?

That was later the same day.

Those are the kids going.

So it's a case.

I don't understand how this came to the city.

Oh, I see it's overlooking the calendar.

That's on top of.

Right.

Who directed that movie?

That's Tim Burton.

No, it wasn't Tim Burton.

He worked on the movie, but it wasn't.

I think I know.

All

Finding Whitney's favor.

Whitney, I'm going to say this right now.

You got to make it consistent.

This is the whole point of this thing: to be clear.

You got to make it consistent so that there's a rule that can be followed.

Now, Greg, before I completely dismiss you,

I neglected to ask this question.

Greg, tell me about your, quote, illogical temporal optimism,

end quote.

ITO as

I ITO is

a term that I invented

after talking to my brother.

You invented it.

I did, yes.

Oh, I see.

After talking to my brother when he first had a child and they were trying to get several things done during the day, and he would say, We're going to get up and we're going to go to the park for a little while, and then we're going to go out and get some brunch, and then we're going to go out to the library for reading time, and then we're going to go out and do a little hike up a nearby mountain, and then we're going to go to the.

And you can't do that many things in one day, especially with a small.

Don't tell me what I can't do, Greg.

It was a figurative, figurative person.

So you can sometimes be too optimistic about what you can do.

I walked to the laundromat today.

A mile and one half

a mile.

Did my laundry and then came back and then I had lunch with Tony.

And then I came here and sound checked and did a show.

It's possible.

Then you are not suffering from ITO, but some people do.

I see.

It's thinking you can do too much during a day.

Yes, illustratively.

Or in a short period of time.

Right.

And Whitney,

are you accusing Whitney of having this disorder?

Yeah, if we're going to talk.

No, no, no.

She uses it against me.

No.

No.

No, I invented the term, but it's used against me.

I say, you don't leave enough to be able to do it.

We can leave at this time.

It'll be fine.

And she says, oh, you've got ITO.

Yeah.

That's what she says.

He doesn't have the realistic expectation of all the things that you have to do to get to the place in which...

Right.

Right.

you get to the place very early

so that we can relax.

Early is on time, on time is late, and late is unacceptable.

So that is my mantra?

Look, I absolutely agree with you, Whitney, but you shouldn't be knocking on the door half an hour before the brunch starts.

You knew what you were doing, and you need to be consistent.

Every part of me wants to rule against you, and I do order you.

I do order you to be consistent going forward because the whole point of this is clarity of communication but i can't rule against you because you didn't do what greg did which was say that tim burton directed a nightmare before christmas was directed by henry sellick the director of coraline

i find in favor of whitney and everyone reprogram your brains to know that

let's now welcome ariel and adriana ariel brings the case against her wife adriana when the two of them decompress after the workday ariel likes to putter.

Adriana likes to lounge.

When Ariel asks her wife to get up to do something or help out, Adriana will often reply she can't because there's a pet on her.

Ariel wants to know, is I have a pet on me an acceptable excuse.

Who comes seeking justice before me in this court?

I do.

And you are Ariel.

I am Ariel.

And what is the justice that you seek?

I would like to set parameters around the concept of whether I have a pet on me is an appropriate excuse for not helping around the house.

Because the state of our life is such that we have three very human-focused pets, and the moment anyone

sits down, there will be a pet on them.

And so if we were to accept that as an excuse for everything,

nothing would get done.

How do you respond, Adriana?

Adriana.

So there's an element of risk here for me because one of our pets is very violent.

We have a cat that like, she doesn't like lay on you.

She'll sit with her face on your face.

And she's bitten me in the face when I move before.

So like, I need to know.

Like, I totally understand.

Can we help you find a safe space?

Oh, no.

She's violent, but she's otherwise perfect.

She's a cat.

That's what they do.

That's what they tell you.

That's what they tell you at the shelter.

Like, take care of yourself.

That's what the cats tell you.

Yes.

I'm violent, but I'm perfect.

I'm perfect.

What's a mortgage?

Serve me.

That's the cat.

So, like, I need to have a parameter whereas, like, I'll be laying down more.

That's what I do.

I'm a lounger.

She's a putterer.

So, like, at what point is it worth me risking my face to get up and like help around the house when like sometimes you're just puttering to putter.

And so like you're doing your thing.

A big accusation.

It is a big accusation, but it's true.

Like sometimes you're just like doing your thing

and I might not necessarily need to like risk my life to get up

to be hyperbolic.

Hyperbolic.

And then other times like you need help.

Like you need someone to open a door for you.

I get it.

There's I just need I need framework.

Okay.

Does this only happen with the cat that's a face biter?

Well, I need to know more.

Like, you have a, you have a cat named Facebite.

And then, what other animals do you have?

So, the face biting cat is named Opal.

Um, she's a torty for cat owners out there that might frame it up.

Yeah, a little bit.

Then we have a little tiger-striped cat.

His name is Hugo.

He's too smart for his own good, and he's also very clingy.

And then we have like a 50-pound hound named Helen, who will also just pile on there.

Ariel, did you know that these were the names of your pets?

Oh, I named them all.

Oh, you did?

Well, everyone but Opal.

Opal came with her name.

Okay, so but you like these pets.

You engage with them.

I adore them.

This is not an issue of jealousy.

They will cuddle with you as well.

There is a little jealousy because

in like

in the evening, because Adriana has been sitting for longer,

the pets will gravitate to her, and then I sit down 20 minutes later, all three of them are already clinging to her, and I get no pet cuddles.

Right, okay.

Does Adriana have a second phone for the pets?

Do you?

No, you're the only one with two phones.

Yeah, I do.

Work phone.

Okay.

Ariel, do you, tell me about the puttering?

What does puttering involve?

Yeah, so I'm a tidying shark.

So

at the end of the workday, I've had.

I like this.

So at the end of the workday, I'm often like sitting down locked in virtual meetings most of the workday.

I work from home about 60% of the time.

So if I'm in a virtual meeting for 80% of the workday,

for an hour or so after the workday, I want to grab little things from this room, start

what's cooking for dinner, tidy up a little bit to release that energy from the city.

What do you do the things you want to grab from the room and move around?

It's just like, I just love hearing people talk about tidying.

I love it so much.

I love it so much.

Like

maybe there's a magazine on a coffee table.

Family podcast, John.

There's a magazine on a coffee table that's a little aspiring.

Family pod.

Square it off.

Square it off all ages.

Well,

there will be a series of cups throughout the house because Adriana leaves cups everywhere.

The male will make it into the house on the dining table, but will not be opened, so it needs to be opened and sorted and recycled most often or there will be a series of coats on the dining room table where they don't belong

and so all of those things need to go away

say coats on the dining room coats on the dining room table Corinne I need you to take over

ask whatever questions you want serious I think it's it's a little bit serious is there is there something routinely that Adriana you like to do that could help out with the the routine at night do you like to cook at all or yeah like I, we split the cooking like 50-50 typically.

Um, I'm a huge yard putterer, so I spend a lot of my time that I'm not prone outside fixing up our yard, cleaning things up, cleaning up like all the dog poop that gets left out, um, like doing all of that exterior maintenance.

And I'll clean the floors.

Like, I do chores.

I am messy and well-hydrated.

I have a lot of cups that I leave around.

But, like,

I like to think I pull my weight.

It's just, it's like more like I do it all, and I will like go and go and go and go, and like, forget to eat, and, like, do my work, and just, like, plow through.

And then, when I stop, I stop.

Like, I am an object at rest, and I am on the couch.

Right.

And if I am covered,

yeah, and then I become just a warming element for whatever lives in the house.

Yes, but

coats on the dining room table.

I mean, do you deny it?

I don't.

We often eat on the couch, though.

It's like not often a useful.

It's not helping for me.

It's a flat space.

No, I eat on the couch all the time.

Absolutely.

When you say we, you mean you and the cats?

Me, there's a dog usually right here watching me eat.

Like, what are you doing?

Like, sometimes, like, trying to get in there.

Yeah, it sounds a little dangerous.

Yeah, it's, it's, you know, there's every creature in the house, including the humans, on the couch.

I believe that you sent in some evidence of the animals on top of you.

We did.

So in the style of family feud, show me the pets.

Oh.

So Ariel, there is you with a cat on top of your lap.

Yes, that is Opal.

That's Opal.

So the principle is, if there is a person sitting, there will be a pet there with them.

Sure.

So

it's just a matter of who is sitting first.

What I love about this photo, obviously they'll all be available.

What I love about this photo, so there's also a photo of you, Ariana, with this is which dog

that is Helen, our dog.

Yeah, Helen, Helen is snuggling with you, expressing not only love, but in her eyes, a deep sense of comfort that she is there with you.

Whereas, what's this cat's name again?

That's Opal.

This is Opal.

Opal is just sitting there going, like, what am I even doing here?

Why did I

get away?

I wish I was biting a face right now.

I got this paw dangling off the leg.

I can't even get a good.

I just feel like it's compelled to do this.

And yet, Opal will not move.

Opal will not move.

And you're trying to eat your food right there.

Or are you trying to eat the cat?

It's not clear to me.

Is this an ELF situation?

Answer the question.

Not an ELF situation.

Is there more evidence, Richard Roby?

Okay, let's see the next slide, please.

Oh, now, look at that.

So that's the face-biting position, right?

Like, that's perilous.

So, let the record show that Ariel has two cats on her lap now, and Helen is over there feeling neglected and left out.

On the left, we have Adriana with opal in face-biting position, and Helen saying, What are you doing here?

Yeah, this is tough.

How could you ever get up?

Also, there's that polar seltzer can just left behind.

Wonder how long that's been there.

Is there another slide?

Oh, this gets better and better.

Oh, so this is the other cat.

Yeah, that's Hugo.

That's Hugo.

And here's Helen, sort of, looks like getting a piece of both of you there, or no.

Yep.

Right, fantastic.

These are all very cute pets.

Any more?

Keep them coming.

I could do this all night.

Is there another one?

Oh, that's it.

Okay.

Round of applause for those cute animals.

Adriana, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

I would just like to have like a grace period where if I have a pet or series of pets, like it could be stratified by number of pets or like time they've been on me, where like if Ariel asks for something that's not like critical, right?

Like Like, move your cups.

What kind of thing?

Like, what kind of thing does she ask you?

Can you pick up your cups?

Like, I'll pick up my cups.

Yeah, can I taste the sauce?

Like, I trust you.

You're a very good cook.

Right.

The cups will get picked up.

I swear, like, hand to God, I will do it.

But right now, I'm laying down with a pet on me.

Potentially, like, pet might bite me if I get up.

Like, what are the parameters?

Like, is it, I've been laying there for an hour.

You tell me the parameters.

Oh, this is your ideal ruling.

I mean, my ideal ruling would be like, if it is not a critical ask, right?

And like, I'm going to get to it by the end of the evening,

let sleeping person with covered in pets lie.

Very well.

If it's critical, like, hey, babe,

I cannot physically get through this door, I'm up, I'm there.

Like, that's fine.

I'll concede to that because that's just the proper thing to do.

But I'd like my rest.

Right.

Ariel, why can't you get through doors?

Too many coats?

They're filled with coats?

We have a series of baby gates because because of the pets.

Oh, no.

And so if your hands are full, you can't get through the baby gate or the regular door, and so I need help sometimes.

To bring the sauce to the couch for your evening meal, for example?

To feed your wife?

Yeah, or I have my arms full of recycling or Amazon boxes, and I need the baby gate open because I don't have two hands to do it.

All right, now you know the terms of the argument, Corin.

What do you think?

What should I roll?

What's your opinion?

I think that

definitely Adriana should help.

Maybe there should be

a code red.

Code red babygate, you know, like some kind of tip-off that this critical mass.

Right.

Babygate needs to go up.

Right.

But I agree, you know,

there's a time when you just need to chill out in the evening and, you know, the cat's right there.

You don't want to get mitten in the face.

Yeah, no.

So, so if there's, if there's a restaurant,

you're leaning Adriana here.

I am a little bit, yeah.

Right.

With an exception of code red.

The code red being baby gates, for example.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

Well, here's what I think.

I have to walk over here to think.

I'm inclined to agree with Corin Tucker on this one.

I think that if you are covered in animals, certainly in our house,

We have a stupid cat.

I mean a really dumb cat.

I don't talk about my private life very often, but I will tell you this, our cat is dumb.

I have seen the cat sitting underneath a coffee table and then stand up and hit its head.

I have looked into the cat's eyes and I have seen galaxies very far away.

And there is a rule in the house that when

this cat has some very particular places that she likes to be, if you are sitting on the couch with your legs on the couch and she gets up in between your knees and settles in there, then that is being called having legs.

And if you have legs, you can't do anything.

You can't get up.

If the dumb cat has legs and they're your legs, that's it.

You're down.

You're down until she moves.

And sometimes she forgets to move for days.

So Ariel, I really, I really feel for you because I am by nature a putterer and a tidier and it does sound like your place is a mess thanks to your wife

and these lazy animals that use her as a bed.

They're all conspiring against you to avoid doing the work in this house.

They won't even just stay in a room.

You need to have gates.

And yet, I have a pet on me is a pretty good rule.

It's one that I tend to believe in, as I've noted.

I use it in my own house.

Ultimately, though, I think I have to agree with Corin Tucker, which is,

Adriana, you get to claim I've got a pet on me unless Ariel really needs you.

And Ariel can decide when that is.

And she will have a code word, and that will be code babygate.

So whether it involves a baby gate or not, if she really needs you to get up and help her, she'll just go code babygate, and then you just take the, you take the bite.

You take the bite for your wife.

This is the sound of a gabble.

We'll put it in post.

We'll fix it in post.

That's it for this week's episode.

Thank you to all the litigants who joined us on stage at Revolution Hall in Portland, Oregon, Maine.

We're coming for you one of these days.

Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account at instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to go over there, follow us, save the post, send the post, get into the comments.

It's fun.

It gets us into the algorithm.

It's good.

Also join the conversation about this week's episode on the Maximum Fun subreddit, which is over at maximumfund.redddit.com.

Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and me, John Hodgman.

This episode was recorded by Matthew Barnhart and produced by Valerie Moffat, Richard Roby, and Jennifer Marmer.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

MaximumFun.org.

Comedy and culture.

Artist-owned, audience-supported.