Persona Non Carta

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Persona non carta, Stephen brings the case against his wife Carrie.

Stephen wants to take a family photo for a Christmas card, but he wants to include a total stranger in the picture and provide no information or context in the card.

Carrie thinks this is a terrible idea.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

Now, everybody, meow, meow, me, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow,

I'm done.

I'm done.

Well, it's not over yet.

It goes on for.

All right, fine.

No, we did a lot of it.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, you may swear them in.

Stephen and Carrie, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he just performed over 40 minutes of meow singing.

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

I'm going to make the podcast record.

I'm going to make the podcast record.

Judge Hodgman, we already did that.

Carrie and Stephen, you may be seated for an immediate summary.

Judgment on one of yours favorites.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom.

Stephen, why don't we begin with you?

Okay.

This sounds to me like a commercial from the 90s.

And now I just need to isolate what we're selling.

I think like cat food is too obvious.

It's going to be something crazy.

Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, yum, meow, meow, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yo, John, that's good.

I got my meows wrong.

We got it.

Yeah, we know what you're singing.

Okay, so now I'm going to switch my answer to Super Troopers.

I think you were closer with the commercial from the 90s, honestly, because this particular tune has been used in a lot of commercials, particularly around a particular time of year that is a discussion point of this episode.

Does that shall I enter that as a guess, or did you want to,

I'm pointing you in a direction.

What time of year are we discussing during this episode?

The holidays.

The holidays,

right?

Perhaps we're selling Dr.

Pepper.

Dr.

Pepper is hot Dr.

Pepper at the holidays.

It's delicious, as Pale of Jesse Thorne knows, not quite as delicious as eggnog and orange Fanta.

Carrie, do you have a guess?

I mean, nobody thinks of Dr.

Pepper at the holidays.

If it's an advertisement for a beverage, it would be Coca-Cola.

Oh, that's true.

Coca-Cola is often advertised at the holidays.

But I don't think it's that either.

Let me ask, would you like to hear the song again?

No.

That would help.

Yes.

Yeah.

Thank you.

No, it's okay.

Do you have it?

So, are you guessing, Coca-Cola, or do you have another guess?

That's going to have to be my guess for now because I'm not sure.

All guesses are spirited but incorrect or wrong.

The tune, of course, is the very famous Carol of the Bells that was composed or based on a Ukrainian folk song and arranged by Mikola Leontovich and made famous by the Ukrainian national choir in the early part of the 20th century.

And since then has been used frequently for television commercials during the holidays, often using bells and not meows.

But in this case,

the meow version of it, I discovered while doing some internet searching around the subject of Christmas cards, which is, of course, the subject of this case, specifically Christmas card pranks.

And there is a company.

And they do not advertise with us, so I will not name them.

But they have a product that is called, and this you might Google if you want to find this product.

It is a card entitled Endless Meowie Christmas with glitter.

It is a card that says Meoi Christmas, and a cat has a little Santa hat on it.

And the prank is that after you make an adjustment and you send it to somebody, the moment they open the card, That song starts playing and it will never stop.

There is no way to stop it.

When you close the card, it continues.

Some of their prank cards even have a fake button on the card that says stop music that doesn't work simply to drive the recipient bananas.

And that alone is annoying enough.

I don't love pranks.

It was not fun for everybody.

It was no fun at all.

But I had to acknowledge the evil genius of this card because not only does it meow repetitively over and over and over again and does not stop no matter how much Bailiff Jesse Thorne begs it to stop, but when you come to the last possible option to stop this card from singing this song, which is tearing it apart, it has glitter inside.

There's glitter hidden in the card.

The world knows the court's stance on glitter.

We hate it almost as much as Rudy does over at Rudy's place.

I don't know if I want to advertise this company.

This is a mean thing to send somebody.

You know what, John?

I'm going to advertise the company.

It's Northrop Grumman.

It was a DARPA project originally.

Psyons.

We're going to get in trouble on the Reddit, that's for sure, for advertising Northrop Grumman.

No, it's not.

Endless Meowie Christmas with glitter.

And one of you will be receiving a judgment in your favor at the end of this episode after I hear this case.

And the other of you...

might get a surprise Christmas card in the mail from the court of Judge John Hodgman

that might glitter bomb you.

We'll see what happens.

But in the meantime, which of you comes to this court seeking justice?

I do, Your Honor.

Stephen, that would be.

All right.

Correct.

State the nature of the justice that you seek.

Okay.

So I would like to have a total stranger posing with us in our family's Christmas card.

And at the bottom of the card, it would read, happy holidays from Carrie, Steve, our two children's names, and Carl.

And there would be no explanation given as to who Carl is and why he's on our Christmas card.

And then on the inside of the card would be solo pictures of everybody with little blurbs about what we've been up to this year.

And then so there would be Carl, and I would make up some really generic, boring thing about what's happened in Carl's life.

Again, not giving any explanation about who he is.

Well, you know, I love the name Carl, Stephen.

So you definitely...

Didn't know that.

Yeah, I do.

I enjoy the name Carl quite a bit.

And I think that this is a kind of a funny idea.

Where did you you get this idea?

So this must have came about like 10 years ago when Carrie and I first got together.

Christmas cards was just not a thing at all in my family.

So, and it's a big, big deal in her family.

Okay.

That's why you realized you had to destroy it.

You had to destroy the tradition of Christmas cards because they were important to her and her family.

Yeah.

Or add some Steven-ness to it, some direly needed Steven-ness.

Yeah, because it's not enough that someone just enjoys a thing in life.

You have to get your fingerprints on it.

Goodness forbid a family member love you.

Okay.

So

this sparked a little

the imp of the perverse in your mind.

How could I mess with this?

How could I steven this up?

Correct.

Correct?

And originally he wanted it to be a child, an unknown child.

But that at least he has changed his opinion about over the decade.

So now that we have actual children.

So this is so so how how long ago you said a decade ago?

About, yeah.

Right.

And now you have two children who are under a decade old.

It would based on the math and I'm five five and just about two.

And it says here that you that you live in in Victoria, British Columbia.

That's wonderful.

But you're not Canadian?

No, Carrie and I are both Americans.

Oh, cool.

Excellent.

Live in the dream.

I moved here from Boston four years ago.

Oh, fantastic.

British Columbia is one of my favorite provinces in Canada.

Wonderful.

You're living the dream.

So, so this, but this was your, your original idea was to put a fake child, to borrow someone's child and trick all of Carrie's family into believing that you had a secret child, or at least confuse them mightily.

Right.

So that's a core part of this.

I don't feel like I'm really tricking people.

I feel like this card is going to people who know us and know that we do not have a person named Carl that is of that level of significance in our life to appear on our Christmas card.

But I totally agree.

The child thing, that was a bad idea.

So now Carl must be a man in his late 50s.

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

Well, you know, I'm only in my early 50s.

So I'm not, I can't, I can't do the job.

I'm no Carl for you.

Tell me more about Carl.

He's in his late 50s.

What else do we know about Carl?

What's in his bio?

He plays pickleball.

And his pickleball team got to like the provincial district

finals

this year.

So he's pretty proud of that.

Oh, so he's a provincial finals.

He's a Canadian pickleball player.

Yeah, it's important that he lives here and it's clear that he lives here so that because our friends and family know that like our parents don't live here.

So we don't want to make sure, make our friends think that that's our dad.

Right.

You're sending this message back to the United States saying, look what happened to us in Canada.

We adopted a 58-year-old man.

Yeah, see, that's what it seems like, right?

Right.

So that seems problematic to me.

Do you have a Carl in mind?

Is there a person in your life who could be Carl or have you not gotten that far yet?

If I had to pick somebody, there's a couple people that I have in mind, but I prefer if it's just a stranger that we find in a place that we go to to take this picture.

Oh, so it's not enough that you annoy and confuse Carrie's family and your own family, but also a stranger.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think he just wants to go up to someone at the beach and say, hey, will you take a photograph with our family?

Right.

Got it.

Oh, I mean, I would say even worse, do you want to be in our Christmas card photo?

No, you would see what their reaction is.

I was just going to ask,

you would inform

this Carl, as we'll call him, of what you intend to do with the photo.

You would get consent from him or no?

Okay.

Yes.

Would you have a production assistant run up to him afterwards and get him to sign a release?

I hadn't gotten that far.

Do you think I need to do that, though?

Yeah, I would, actually.

I would.

I would say it was probably safer to go with one of your friends who your families don't know necessarily, or and probably they don't because they're all down here, down under, as they call the lower 48.

Who would this card go to?

Tell me, maybe they're all up in Canada.

I don't know.

Who would this card go to?

Yeah, this is the other big problem.

I know very few people,

and Carrie knows quite a few people.

And so most of the people would be going to people who

what you could call carries people

yeah i come from a big a large family i have many cousins aunts and uncles grandparents across the us

and a pretty large friend network that sends christmas cards every year um so they would be going to those people along with steve's one sister, one set of parents, one uncle, and a few friends.

I really love how

the tone of your voice when you describe Steve's one set of parents really was like he had failed in some way.

You know, this guy only has one set of parents.

Carrie would absolutely be on board for this plan if Steve would just get himself a second set of parents like normal people do.

Carrie, since the bulk of the cards would be going to Carrie's people,

as Stephen calls it, also the title of a great John LeCarre novel.

Since most of it would be going to your people, Carrie, what kind of responses do you anticipate getting?

What do you think people will think when they open this card?

So I think one important thing to note is that our family, Steve and I and our two children, we have never sent a Christmas card.

And so this would be the first time we've decided to foray into Christmas correspondence.

And I honestly think I will get many phone calls and emails asking who is Carl because

Steve says that people would think it's funny and and it's a joke, but I honestly think that it will just confuse people because while he may be someone who does things to unnerve other people, that's not something I would do.

I wouldn't just put a stranger on my Christmas card.

So

I think people will be confused and they will be following up with me to try to figure out what's going on.

They will be genuinely confused is what you're saying.

They would not be confused.

I think so.

They would not be rolling their eyes going, oh, Steve, oh, little Steve.

And that is exactly what his parents will do and his sister.

Right.

And

they'll get the joke.

His few closest friends, they will probably do that.

Whereas, you know, my family does know Steve.

My friends do.

We've been together a long time now.

But I think this is just taking it to a different level that would be unexpected.

And the burden of explaining the joke would fall disproportionately to you, I would imagine, your argument would be.

A hundred percent.

Yes.

I'm the one who even even Steve's friends would contact me probably about this more than him.

I feel like, I really feel like it.

Who would contact you?

My friends!

My friends would.

I don't know.

I think it often falls on the other person to explain.

the situation.

And so this is a dynamic that comes up in our relationship all the time.

Anytime we're in a social group, Steve loves to make jokes that make people question, is he serious?

Is he not serious?

What's going on?

And I'm always there standing right behind him going, he's kidding.

It's a joke.

Can you give me an example of such a time when Stephen made such a joke?

It's hard to think of a specific example because they're just small things all the time.

I bet Stephen can remember one.

So I can remember one that happened recently.

The Joker always remembers the joke.

Okay.

We were at her friends and there, she's an educator talking about the school students bringing cell phones to class and how they try to like teach responsibility on these for these phones.

And I was like, well, that's like telling a school child that they can only bring two grams of heroin to school.

And that didn't go over the best with this.

It could have been because both of our daughters, five-year-old daughters, were like standing right next to me.

But they don't know what heroin is.

So

I don't try.

When I tell these jokes, I try to make it so that people know that I'm joking, but I do, it does, it does go wrong every once in a while.

You don't have the ebullient affect that Canadians expect.

Yeah, I'm a little out of place here.

Yeah.

Okay.

And what about your kids, Carrie?

What do they think of this plan?

Have you all discussed the possibility of Stranger Carl being part of the Christmas Guard?

No,

they don't know yet.

I think our daughter, she's five now, so she at least would be aware enough to know something was happening.

But I will say, like, frequently after Steve says a joke, she will be like, What are you talking about?

What do you mean?

Because there's confusion over, is he saying something that's real or is this not real?

It's very blurred, especially for a kid who's just trying to figure out what the world is like.

You mentioned that Steven can be, little Stevie can be a little, a little, a little provocative,

a little, a little disarming, a little, I think you used the term unnerving.

You also sent in some evidence specifically of unnerving people during the holidays.

So I'm going to open that evidence now and talk with you about some of the photos.

Did you send these in, Carrie?

Yes.

All right.

So exhibit A, these are gifts that Stephen has sent to his nieces.

Is that correct?

Correct.

Our only nieces, yes.

Stephen only has, how many nieces?

Only two.

He only has two nieces?

I know.

Stephen, you really got to see.

And they don't even have mailing addresses yet.

So you have to send them to their parents?

Correct.

And this is Stephen's family, right?

So I bet the nieces only have one set of parents, too.

Yes.

Real losers.

All right.

This is an incredible thing, Stephen.

This is a piece of papier-mâché art.

It's a gorgeous paper coelacanth, it looks like to me.

Exhibit A.

Yes, you correctly identified a coelacanth.

Well, I'll tell you something.

It was written underneath here as part of the evidence, including a pronunciation guide.

I appreciate that because I'm always saying kilacanth.

I stand corrected.

But there's actually, this is actually a wrapping around a present, this incredible piece of art paper sculpture, which of course you will be able to i hope with your permission all listeners can see it on our instagram page at judge john hodgman or the show page maximumfund.org that's a thumbs up from stephen that that counts as an okay

this is actually wrapping around a present and the present it says here inside and this is where you're sending it to your to your nieces or your niece uh this is her for her seventh birthday yeah an industrial endoscope yeah what is it an industrial endoscope if i may ask so it's like a camera body but instead of the lens like attached to the camera the lens is like attached to a rigid wire tube whatever you want to call it for exploring what would that be used for so like imagine you're walking through the forest and you see like a snake hole and you're like is there i wonder if there's a snake or something in there well there's no way for you to know wait I've got my industrial endoscope with me.

I can just send that down the snake hole, see what's in there.

Let me give you a little bit of, I mean, I'm not an expert on this, but I will say, if it's a snake hole, there's a snake in there for sure.

Well, so what does that snake look like?

There's no way to know unless you get out your industrial endoscope.

Endoscopy, as always, is the answer.

What problem can we not solve with endoscopy?

And then you sent a beautiful...

It's somewhere between, how would you describe this, Stephen?

It's not origami.

It's paper sculpture, it seems like to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I make the wrapping look like animals to be a special thing that Uncle Steve does.

Yeah.

And this is an armadillo, a beautiful gray and darker gray armadillo that contains a nuclear

spintheroscope, which is what, Stephen?

So it's a small piece of radioactive material that's enclosed in a viewing chamber.

And then you can look through it and see like the after effects of nuclear radiation.

And so it's totally safe for

children or anybody to have, but it's super fun to give somebody some nuclear radioactive material.

Especially an 11-year-old as your niece was 11 years old.

And how did that, Carrie, how did that gift work out?

Yeah, so with this particular, with all the gifts, we have a challenge because we're here in Canada and it's really expensive to mail things.

So we often have things sent to Steve's parents, just the one set,

and they are in charge of like putting it together and giving it to the nieces because they live nearby.

Wait a minute.

Do they have to assemble the whole paper armadillo?

Sometimes there's very complicated directions on like, here is this, you need to like slide it here and then put A into B and attach C.

So they do have to do a lot of work.

So that sounds a lot different than what Stephen said, which was no.

There's a lot of daylight between do they have to put together the paper armadillo answers there.

So Stephen, what do they have to do?

Well, so this was a really special case because I did not want to have to deal with the customs nightmare of having nuclear radioactive material sent.

So, like, what I don't, I didn't want to feel like.

Inside an armadillo, there's a form, depending on what animal, how armored it is.

Yeah, I go to the same UPS store and like they know me by now and they're like, okay, just do your best on this form.

So, I didn't even want to bother with this.

So I was like, mom, I'm going to send you an armadillo.

And then you're also going to get...

So I like.

pre-made the armadillo to be as easy as possible to just like put the thing inside of it and then and then then close it up yeah but but other other of your paper creations do occasionally involve some complex directions is that what carrie was referencing to i've learned that i really have to minimize it because they're not good at following these directions and they get very upset and unfortunately they're the only parents you have this is why steve

this is why you need a couple of backup sets of parents because what if they can't put your paper armadillo together correctly what if they're dumb dumbs and they can't do it right yeah i got my second set of parents on one of those task apps because they're really good at putting together IKEA furniture.

Carrie, you were going to say something?

Well, so because Steve knows that his parents have challenges putting together the animals, he also had his mom test out the nuclear box

and it

was very poorly.

Yes, the spintheroscope because he wanted to see how it worked and then make sure it was going to be good.

So it ends up to view it, you have to go into into a dark room with the box and you have to stay there for 10 or 15 minutes as your eyes adjust.

So his mom is in their basement bathroom and all of a sudden she turns around to try to grab the box and she knocks it on the ground, shattering it.

And she's like terrified she's been exposed to some kind of nuclear matter.

So she calls him desperately on the phone being like, Steve, I couldn't see it.

I knocked it.

I broke it.

I'm looking at a picture of this thing.

Y'all sent me a link.

It's made in the USA, but shipped from Canada.

High thorium content nuclear spintheroscope.

It literally says, allow eyes to become accustomed to total darkness for at least 10 to 15 minutes before viewing.

Yeah, I didn't see that part.

It's a very inventive gift.

How's your one mom doing?

Did she become a radioactive mutant?

That could explain some things of late, but I think it sounded like she recovered from that.

She was also upset that she broke the gift.

She's like, I'll order you a new one.

Like, mom, it's okay.

It all worked out.

The last one I just want to talk about, there are many examples that were sent here.

And I have to say, I have to say, people need to go to the Judge John Hodgman Instagram page.

They need to go to the show page at maximumfun.org, wherever you go to see your Judge John Hodgman photos.

This paper art is incredible.

Like, it's genuinely beautiful.

Genuinely amazing.

And these twin

reindeer that you made are incredible.

And as I understand from this, this is when you had your second niece come along, obviously.

Yeah.

And what I understand from the caption is that one of the reindeer contained sodium iodide, and the other reindeer contained a bottle of 12% hydrogen peroxide.

And the instructions were to combine them and watch what happens.

This fun effect, may I presume that this is what the internet calls elephant toothpaste or devil's toothpaste?

Elephant toothpaste.

You got it.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, they knew already, so it wasn't as fantastic a thing, but they did it.

It was fun.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

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Kerry, how many people are going to get this Christmas card?

And bear in mind that since you're in Canada, for many of them, you'll have to use two stamps.

I mean, everyone will mostly.

Yeah,

I think probably 50 people, maybe

a little bit more, maybe.

You're going to hand address those or do a mail merge?

I think hand address.

You know, it's the holidays.

You want to put in that extra effort.

Well, who is going to hand address them?

Oh, me.

Steve has very poor.

He doesn't have very good.

I have to write the letters to the nieces because he has poor handwriting.

Yeah, that's a good point.

That's true.

I love Stephen jumping and going, I'll help.

I just got some invisible ink.

What do you mean you have to write the letters to the nieces?

So when he sends these gifts, usually there's very long letters that go with them.

It's very thoughtful, but he will say some facts about the animal that he has wrapped the present in and also some information about the gift if there are directions.

And so in the past, I have helped to write it legibly.

So he definitely will not be addressing envelopes.

Do they not have computers or typewriters in Canada?

I think he just likes it to be handwritten.

By you.

Steve has a vision for things, if you haven't been able to tell yet.

Yes.

So since your handwriting is terrible, Stephen, it seems like it would, most of the work of mailing out the Christmas card would fall to Carrie.

And Carrie, you would also have to to sit for the photograph with the stranger.

Yeah, and prepare my children and make them comfortable.

Aside from all of those logistical burdens, when you think about sending this thing out,

how does it just, how does it make you feel?

It makes me feel very stressed.

You know, Steve and I have talked about this because if you rule that he can do this, I said we could do it.

You know, it would, because we've had this conversation for 10 years.

And so it keeps coming back up every year.

And this is sort of, he said, this is his last resort.

This is it.

Either we are going to do it if you say yes, or we're not going to do it if you say no.

And I told him last night, I said, if I think I'm going to be very upset because I am very uncomfortable with the whole thing and I

don't want to have all those conversations.

It just seems like it's not fun to me.

What's the worst case scenario?

What do you fear the worst is going to happen?

That one of your one of your many grandmothers from one of your many sets of parents will open this and be so confused and surprised that they'll faint.

Do you know how, like, in families, everyone just starts talking about things, and then like you eventually hear it to trickle down?

So I think like my grandmother will talk to my mother who will talk to my aunt and they'll all be confused together and then they'll wonder what's going on and why is Steve so weird and who's this person and

what are they doing in Canada?

Do they know that you've married a weird person yet?

So my parents do.

I admittedly only have one set as well.

And they do.

My sister does, but my aunts and uncles and my grandparents don't fully, I don't think.

How long do you think you can hide it from them?

I mean, you've fled to Canada to isolate them from the rest of your family.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I think they know.

I see these people every two years.

We have family reunion and I spend a lot of time with these people.

And

I'm myself with them.

Do you feel that Carrie is ashamed of your weirdness, Stephen, that she's trying to hide it?

Not usually.

But with this thing,

I think she is, but not typically.

I will say that, like, so when we first got together, Steve used to do a lot of out-of-the-box things like this.

He had a group of friends and they would

do different pranks and unusual things.

And I think that I have been a different kind of energy.

And I do feel badly if that's something he wants to be doing more of.

But I think that there are ways he could be doing it that don't involve me and my extended family and friend network.

So if he wants to do something that I don't don't agree with, like even the gifts for our nieces, I've sort of let go of over the years.

I used to say, like, I'm not sure this is a good idea, or do you think a five-year-old really wants that?

But now I know that he has this sort of routine and it's going fine, but that doesn't involve me and my like outward-facing persona.

So this just very heavily involves me.

What kind of pranks would Stephen do with his prank group, the pranksters?

That's what I call them.

I don't think this is a prank group at all.

This is part of a group in Boston.

You're very, very small, small group of friends.

That was a big group.

No, so what happened is when I met Carrie, my whole life became like, Carrie, Carrie, Carrie, everything, Carrie, which look at her.

She's adorable.

She's super fun.

No regrets.

But like before that, like we would put on like a citywide choose your own adventure thing and like have these sets that we set up throughout the city.

And like we had a whole, we were, had a big following throughout Boston.

People would come and do these events.

We had a big water battle fight to get like hundreds of people to come to these events.

So

it's a really good group of people for me.

It sounds more like a kind of

an immersive game rather than a prank.

Yeah.

You weren't tricking people.

I guess I did have one friend.

You were creating an alternate reality game.

Oh, excuse me.

You said you had one friend.

What?

Go ahead.

I had one friend where we did do a little bit more prank things like we snuck into brandeis university and put up signs in the dorm saying please refrain from peeing in the washing machines and then just

and then just imagined

what would happen

yeah so we'd watch people like go up to these washing machines like oh what are people doing who would do that

and you and you and your friend would just be giggling in the corner Yeah.

And I'll say like meeting Carrie, I'm so glad that she has taken me away.

Like I I needed to drop that.

I'm like 41 years old.

Those days, I'm glad to have Carrie's influence on my life to get me to be a little bit more sane.

Yeah, but what about the immersive theater?

The choose your own adventure station by station.

I mean, I'm, I can't, I can't say that I fully understand what it is you're describing.

But do you have anything like that in your life now?

No, not really.

What do you want to give your own children as gifts?

Endoscopes and such?

I don't know.

So I made my daughter like this fairy tree dollhouse.

I tried to be thoughtful with them in different ways,

but we'll eventually get to the point as they get older that I'm going to want to give them weird things.

Yeah.

And Carrie, how do you feel about Stephen giving your children weird things in the future?

I think that's fine.

Again,

he can do what he wants.

I think it's just me having to pose for a picture with a stranger and send it to my family that feels like I'm not really interested in that.

I don't really think it's funny.

So,

you know, having to sign off on something so big.

When he hands your six-year-old on Christmas morning a paper grizzly bear filled with a centrifuge full of polonium or something, you're going to be okay with that?

Sure.

All right.

It's just this one thing.

This one thing.

The photo with Carl.

Carrie, if there were some way to automatically

link

the card

or for you to simply easily and automatically refer everyone to this podcast as a matter of explanation, if there were something on the back of the card to say, confused, call this number.

And we set up like an internet number that just played this podcast.

So that you didn't have to take the burden of this.

Would that change it?

If you knew that anyone who was confused could find an answer to their question without talking to you, would that change your opinion?

Perhaps, but I think it comes down to what's the point of doing this at all?

You know, like, is the point is for Steve because he thinks it's funny?

Is it funny if it's automatically explained through a QR code?

I don't know if it's even accomplishing its original goal at that point.

Because like, what is the point?

I think you raise a very important question, Carrie, that I have so far failed to ask.

And I apologize as the judge of this proceedings.

So I now pose it to you, Stephen.

I want you to really think of it because this is your closing argument.

What is the point of anything?

Specifically, what is the point of this card?

Do you acknowledge that it will confuse people?

Yes, I acknowledge that it will confuse people, but I believe that someone can be confused and happy and excited at the same time.

And that it's not a prank.

It's a challenge of like, okay, this is a weird thing that's happening.

I got to figure this out.

What's happening?

I know.

They put a total stranger on their Christmas card.

That's so weird.

And itself, like, I don't think just that is the greatest joke that's ever been.

But for the effort it takes to do it, it's a good enough joke that's going to make a lot of people

enough happy to make me happy about it.

What will make you happy?

What feedback will you need in order to be happy?

Just

that enough people

found it moderately entertaining.

Like, again, I know it's not going to be like people are going to be on the floor dying laughing, but I think it's just going to be like, you know, somewhat brightens people's day.

And I don't think I'm some sort of like angel of spreading goodwill to somebody that I have to brighten everybody's day with like ridiculous things, but I just imagine that they're going to get this guard and it's just going to be a silly thing and it's something they'll remember and just be a unique experience for them.

Do you believe that Carrie does not know her own family, that she misrepresents or misforecasts how they're going to react to this?

Her extended family, I think she's getting kind of right a little bit that they might react poorly.

I think that she doesn't know her friends, which I would also say are my friends because I've known them for 10 years as well.

And I've gotten close with their husbands in certain ways.

So I think all of her friends will love it.

Carrie, do other people in your family send you Christmas cards?

Yes, people in my family send Christmas cards regularly.

You haven't sent Christmas cards in the past?

Correct.

We've never done a Christmas card.

Why not?

We've never posed for family photos.

So this is like, would be a very new thing.

We've never done anything like that before.

Would you like to send a non-joke Christmas card?

You've been together 10 years and haven't done it so far.

I'm open to doing that.

It's not something I have to do.

I haven't been asking to do that.

I think, you know, it's a nice thing to do, but it's not necessary, in my opinion.

Stephen, do you think the joke works if you haven't sent straight Christmas cards in the past?

It doesn't work as well.

It would have been nice to have a history of regular Christmas cards, but it has to be now.

It has to be now?

It has to be now.

Our kids are in peak cuteness.

I think after a certain few years, our daughter is...

it would be less okay to explain to our daughter what's happening.

And we're recording this podcast, so our friends are going to find out about this eventually anyways and ruin the joke.

Okay.

Not to add more work then, but just trying to find a solution.

Carrie, I know what Stephen wants me to rule in case I were to rule, to make and send the card.

It says so right here in front of me.

If I were to rule in your favor, you've requested A, that Stephen acknowledge that this is a selfish idea, and B, that if he wants to express himself through a Christmas card, there are more mainstream ways to do so.

Would it be more acceptable to you if Stephen made the Carl card happen

and he personally sent it only to an approved friend list that left out family members that you thought would be confused or dismayed by this.

Would that be appropriately mainstream?

I don't know what mainstream means in this term, but would that be a compromise that you would accept?

I think I'm open to that compromise because it's easier to explain to friends.

But I just, I don't know if that's what he wants.

It's not, the vision is not for that.

Stephen, what do you think about this vision?

About your compromise?

Yeah, what is your opinion on it?

I at least would want to send it to her parents and her sister

because they're people that I've gotten really close with.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go to my chambers and consider my verdict.

I'll be back in a moment with my ruling.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Carrie, how are you feeling?

I guess I'm nervous because I feel like,

like I said, I'm not the most excited if we go ahead with this, but I also know that I will trust the judge's verdict.

Stephen, how do you feel?

I'm feeling oddly optimistic.

I was expecting to be a little bit more

going after, you know, make fun of Stephen, the weird guy thing here.

But

I still, though, like, I think, I think past court precedence doesn't fall in my favor here.

So

I came into this knowing that I had a long way to go, and I don't think I did it.

Stephen, you know that the joke is better if you actually like hire someone from Craigslist or something, use their actual first name, and what's actually happened to them this year, right?

I did think about Craigslist, but I was worried about getting a different kind of Carl than I wanted.

So you were going to cast specifically for people named Carl?

No.

I mean, Craigslist is the place to do that.

Hey, Craig from Craigslist, Judge John Hodgman, listener.

I'll buzz market Craigslist all day.

All right, Victoria BC residents, if John says that we can do this, check Craigslist for

my gigs posting.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case.

Let's talk about what we've got upcoming.

Well, as you know, Dick Town is still available on Hulu and will always be available on Hulu, I'm glad to say.

Both seasons are up there at Hulu.com or on the Hulu app on your phone, tablet, or smart TV.

Just tell your smart speaker, as we were told by public radio all the time now, tell your smart speaker, hey, Siri, play Dicktown on Hulu.

Does that work?

Okay, I don't know.

My phone's doing something.

You'll need to add an Apple TV to your home.

Yeah, if you have an Apple TV, it works, it turns out.

By the way, I used my Apple TV to watch Confess Fletch, which is the new Fletch movie from Greg Mattola, starring John Hamm and Eugene Merman and a lot of other really great actors.

And I found it absolutely charming and funny.

And oh, Roy Wood Jr.'s in it, one of the greatest funny people of all time

who's so great in this movie.

And, you know, this is the kind of movies that they're not making anymore, not just Fletch movies, but just sort of like movies that John Hodgman could potentially appear in.

Yeah, look, I was in New England when they were shooting it.

I don't, I didn't get the call.

That's fine.

I'm really happy for them all.

And John Hamm's really funny in it.

And just fun, breezy, whodunit.

So you used to go and see in the movie theater.

And now you can see it online anywhere you get your movies.

And the last thing I'm going to say is this: some very important words.

Jean Gray has a Patreon.

That's right.

I'm going to repeat it.

Jean Gray has a Patreon.

You know, Jean Gray.

She's a guest bailiff on this show from her many, many different songs and musics and videos and actings and Dick Town.

She plays Monica on Dicktown.

She's one of the smartest, funniest, sweetest people.

You know who Jean Gray is.

I don't need to tell you this.

Get over to that Patreon because she's got a whole bunch of new content up there that's so great.

And she's also relaunched her Church of the Infinite You Sunday sermon sessions, which are so

legitimately beautiful and wonderful and fun.

That's J-E-A-N-G-R-A-E.

Gene Gray has a Patreon.

Jesse, what do you have coming on?

Well, we've had some really great guests lately on Jordan Jesse Go, my other comedy podcast,

including the great Judy Greer, who's one of the most delightful human beings on earth.

She is.

She led us into a great discussion of what the main animals are.

We just had Chris Estrada, who's the creator of the wonderful television show, This Fool.

Oh, I watched that.

It was based on your recommendation.

It was so funny, right?

Yeah.

It's so funny.

He was also on Bullseye recently.

Patton Oswalt on the program,

one of the funniest guys in the world, obviously.

So go check out Jordan Jesse Goh.

I think you'll enjoy it.

Bear in mind, it does have a lot of swearing in it, not for children, but very warm-hearted.

Yeah.

We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Stephen, you said something that struck me a little bit ago.

We're like, I'm not an angel.

I don't expect people to think that I'm an angel, but I'm going to say something to you, Stephen.

And I don't say this to a lot of people.

You are an angel.

I absolutely look.

I've seen a lot of joke Christmas cards.

When I go to the little grocery store, the Lee's grocery store, they always put up the Christmas cards that they get from their customers.

And I always feel very ashamed because I've never sent them a Christmas card or given them a holiday card of any kind.

But Mr.

and Mrs.

Lee always put them up.

There's this one family that does a different amazing joke Christmas card every year.

And so one year they do this, and it's like

a dad and a mom and two little kids, and they'll dress up in Jedi robes

or they'll do this amazing recreation of

a spy movie poster or something like that.

And I enjoy them very much.

The dad has a beard, obviously.

We're in Park Slope.

And it's very, very clearly his project

because he's always featured very prominently.

And the mother and the two kids always look fairly happy, but also trapped, trapped in the fantasy of this dad.

And I was concerned that you were going to be one of these dads who is just going to try to subvert the sincerity because of a self-consciousness around the fact that I'm no longer a crazy college kid who's putting up stickers in

Brandeis' laundry room anymore, or whatever it is.

That's not who you are, Stephen.

You are an angel.

Everything changed

when I saw those photos of those paper armadillos and tardigrades and

giraffe and double reindeer and coelacanth.

I mean, holy moly.

I mean, Carrie, you know what you got with this guy, right?

An angel.

Like the care that you are putting into these gifts for these nieces is so astonishing.

And I,

and, and, and the gifts themselves are so weird, but in such a nice way.

I mean, truly

in a really funny way.

Like,

this is not a trick.

This is not a gag that you're playing on your nieces.

Like, it's obvious that you care about them a lot and you want to share your

weird preoccupations with them in a

vuncular way.

It's the adjectival form of uncle.

That is, I think, is really caring and really sharing.

And you care and share so much that you don't even mind sending them chemicals that could burn their skin or cause them eye and respiratory irritation.

I was never, ever going to shame you for your weird here, Stephen, because I think this is, this is an expression.

What you sent to your nieces is an expression of true,

truly generous, weird, and true generosity.

Because what they are getting and what you are making your single set of parents recreate when you send them the instructions, these are works of art that take time.

You know,

you really deserve credit for this.

But this joke, this Christmas card, this Carl card, I got to draw a distinction.

between a joke and a prank.

I really laughed at that video made by that prank card company when I realized that the endless loop of Meowie Christmas that you could not turn off when you opened that card had

a second gag within it that once you tear up the card in frustration, glitter pours out.

That is truly deliciously funny and evil.

But if I ever got that card in the mail, I would be really mad.

That would not make me happy.

There are people who enjoy getting pranked, but over the decade plus of doing the Judge John Hodgman podcast, I've really, really leaned into if it's not fun for everybody, it's not fun at all.

Like

dad jokes that cause confusion at

highway

toll collection booths ordering kung pow chicken from your toll collector or telling your server jokes that make no sense when you have captive audiences, be they

waiters waiters or your own family.

I just don't care for it.

I just don't care for the pranks anymore.

And you know, too.

I mean, on some level, you understand that

you are, to paraphrase Danny Glover, you are too old for this feces.

You expressed happiness that Carrie has helped you move away from your days of stickering the Brandeis laundry room.

And I have to say, the other thing is that even as a joke,

this card, it's not a good joke.

Sorry, friend.

Sorry.

I mean, I'm going to get letters about all the people who have done this sort of thing before.

I mean, it was a decade ago that Monty Belmonte, summertime, fun time guest pale of Monty Belmonte, decided to send out the family Christmas card.

Now, Monty and his and his family do wonderful themed photos.

Funny, like

one year they all put on the kiss.

There were four of them.

There are now five of them, but when they were just four, two parents and two kids, they all put on elaborate KISS makeup, you know, from the band Kiss.

They looked amazing.

They do a themed holiday end-of-year card, New Year's card, whatever you want to call it.

Every year, an amazing family portrait.

Our friends Matthew and Sarah do increasingly elaborate, like junkie Sears portraits.

It's fun.

I get it.

And, but, you know, it was more than a decade ago that Monty said, this year we're going to do a regular family portrait with John Hodgman in the background.

We're not going to explain it to anybody.

Now, there was a difference then.

10 years ago, some people knew who I was.

It wasn't like, it wasn't exactly like, who's that Carl?

It was more like, how'd you get that minor television personality in your photo?

I think that this has been done before.

This is just a comedy critique, Stephen.

I've already called you an angel.

And I really believe it.

But I'm just saying from just a pure comedy, I think that this is, this feels like a joke that was developed 10 years ago and should have been put into action at that time.

I feel that

having the bios of the family, including Carl, is what we call in comedy a hat on a hat or a joke on a joke.

I think it would be funnier just to have no mention of Carl whatsoever and not even name him Carl.

That's just, that would be my suggestion.

Then it gets, it's a little bit slipperier and more funny, in my opinion.

And the fact that you were going to do a bio of Carl and all you know is that he plays Canadian pickleball, you didn't, after 10 years, you had not developed a full biography of Carl.

I have to say,

I mean,

it would have to be a really, and this is just to say, it's cool, but it would have to be a really, really, really, really good joke for me to second guess my basic instinct, 90s movie,

which is tricking people is no fun.

Sharing your weirdness

is fun.

Weird is inappropriately pejorative.

I think being weird is a wonderful quality.

I would venture to say that Carrie loves you in part for your weirdness.

And let the record show that Carrie has reluctantly nodded.

Sharing your weirdness is a wonderful thing, but tricking people is not, is not so much fun.

I don't know whether you feel this way, but one of the things that I was feeling when

I proposed the idea that you send the Carl card to your friend group, but send a traditional Christmas card to everybody.

And you're like, I still want her parents to see it.

I still want her sister to see it.

That my feeling was like, I still want her parents and sister to see me.

Carrie, you married a weird dude.

You can't hide it forever.

Eventually, they're all going to figure out just how deep it goes.

Putting aside the obvious fact that

this prank would also put an undue burden on Carrie to explain not only herself, but you to her extended family.

Putting aside the fact that it would force her to sit in a photo shoot with your kids who may be made to feel uncomfortable by a stranger.

Putting aside the fact that she's going to have to write out all these things because your handwriting is terrible and you won't get a printer.

There is ultimately the truth that this is a trick and not a joke.

And therefore, I cannot allow it.

Not now?

Not ever.

You need to find a way,

and I know that you can,

to share your weirdness

in the same generous

and expressive and truly weird way you share it with your nieces.

Carrie, you can't hide this from your grandma and grandpa.

They got got to get a tardigrade in the mail.

You know what I mean?

They got to get a coelacanth.

Okay.

I mean, truly,

you know,

I'm looking at a photo here of at least a dozen paper ladybugs that you made.

Correct, Stephen?

This is your handiwork?

Yep.

So I know that you're capable of producing in volume.

I don't think ladybugs are weird enough, frankly, too cutesy.

This is not the solution.

It's up to you to find a solution that is as generous and shows

your true, your true angelic inspiration.

The Carl card is not a great joke, but something new that you create, some paper sculpture that you're going to send to weird out

not only

your in-laws, your close in-laws, but the whole extended family to really let them know who Carrie married, it's going to be be amazing.

He's going to weird them right out.

And it won't be a trick or a joke.

It'll be, this is who I am.

And the benefit is, you're going to have to make all this stuff.

If you want to do it, it's up to you.

You've got to do it.

You can do that or not.

But as far as that's my advice, but as far as my ruling, Carl Card is out.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

Judge John Hodgman rules that as all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Carrie, you're largely vindicated.

Are you prepared to share your husband's weirdness with the full breadth of your family?

I'm very thankful for the ruling.

I wasn't expecting it, to be honest.

I feel like things were moving in Steve's favor.

And I think that once we move on from this card, which has been a a focus for a long time, that Steve can find a way that's more personal and weird to express himself.

And I'll support him.

Steve, it's clear that you're capable of creating great beauty.

Are you already brainstorming ways to combine beauty, weirdness, and the spirit of the holidays?

No, I don't want to.

I think I'm out of the making the holidays a weird game.

I've been thoroughly convinced to

drop that.

No, i that's not the stephen my angel

you've been ordered to make the holidays weird yeah keep stephen weird that's not it at all don't put that on me how dare you i find you in contempt of court you heard my ruling it was clear

so i have to send them weird christmas gifts

i thought it was just like just any any old time send them a weird paper animal thing

however you choose to do it express your weirdness just don't trick your family I want them to see you.

I don't want them to be confused by you.

Chances are, they're already confused by you.

Right.

Well, to answer Jesse's question, I'm not currently brainstorming these ways, but I know inspiration will strike when I least expect it, and I will go with it as long as Carrie approves.

Carrie Stephen, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

In a moment, we'll have Swift Justice.

First, our thanks to Twitter user at Tim Kinnitz for naming this week's episode Persona Non-Carta.

We also want to shout out friends of the show Linda Holmes and Dan McCoy for some good titles this week.

Linda suggested you'll never guess who this dude is.

Thank you, Linda.

Y-U-L-E.

Yeah.

And Dan's suggestion was, what Chad is this?

This is really like, this is what Dan was was born to do.

Yeah.

Half-joke puns.

If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter for naming opportunities at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

While you're there, you can also hashtag your Judge John Hodgman related tweets, hashtag JJ Ho.

And you can join the conversation at the Maximum Fund subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com.

Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account.

That's instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman, as well as at maximumfund.org on the episode page.

John, I was, I just started clicking around the nuclear products website.

And if you've got $15 burning a hole through your pocket, I cannot recommend enough buying radioactive uranium-doped marbles.

This can't be okay.

This can't be okay.

It's not my recommendation.

That's if you've got $15 burning a hole through your pocket and you want some marbles burning a hole through your pocket.

Right.

I was going to say.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmor.

Our editor is Valerie Moffat.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Twitter user at the Daryl says, I think an unopened toothbrush is fine to buy at a yard sale.

My friend thinks this is horrifying.

That's horrifying, but not because of germs,

because the toothbrush is unopened, but because

I can't, I don't want to think about the horrifying story of how an unopened toothbrush ends up being sold at a yard sale.

For sale.

Toothbrush never used.

It's just too sad.

It's too sad to contemplate.

If you have a holiday dispute for us, and we're including all of those winter holidays, Christmas,

I'm not going to include Christmas.

I'd love to hear about your non-Christmas holiday disputes.

Christmas gets a lot of coverage, but there are a lot of other holidays out there.

Let's hear your Saturnalia disputes.

You just took the word Saturnalia right out of my mouth.

New Year's, or if you have an anniversary around the holidays, what if you have your birthday on Christmas?

And

that's always a thing that happens.

Ricky Henderson's right in.

Yeah.

And if you've got a Christmas dispute and you think is just the greatest, go ahead and send it in too.

It's fine.

Maybe a miracle will happen.

That's it.

Maximumfund.org/slash JJHO.

And look, you don't need to have a special dispute.

Send your half-baked dispute.

We'll take any dispute at maximumfund.org/slash jjho.

Maximumfund.org slash jjho.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Maximumfund.org.

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