Death Cab or Sue Me

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
This week, death cab or sue me, Louisa brings the case against her sister Josie.

Josie has a huge box she'd like to paint to look like the skeleton cab from Halloween town. Louisa just wants to get rid of the box.
Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Josie and the pussy cats, long tails and ears for hats. You wish that was the cultural reference.
You wish it. It's not.
Here's the cultural reference. Does that song really go ears for hats?

Yeah, it does. Wow.
They do wear ears for hats. They wear ears for hats.
But I mean, they're not hats. They're just

something that's on their head. Not everything that's on your head.
A hairband isn't a hat. What do you think about this new hat that I'm wearing, Jesse? I call it headphones.
Yeah, there you go.

It's my new hat. There you go.
That's what we're talking about. All right, here comes a real obscure cultural reference.
This side, that side, and the truth. Justice from every angle.
Hot bench.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Louisa and Josie, please rise and raise your right hands.
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever. I do.
I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he only takes that goofy cab from Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Benny the Cab.

Benny the Cab. Thank you.
That's right. I do.
I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.
Benny the Cab. You just stick out your thumb and he shows up.
Benny the Cab.

Louisa and Josie, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment on one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced when I entered the courtroom, Louisa?

That was the intro to the courtroom show hotbench, I believe. That's correct.
And who is doing the voiceover?

Yes. Let's go ahead to Josie now.
I don't know.

I've never watched Hot Bench. You've never watched Hot Bench? No, I haven't.
I've seen Judge Judy.

Okay. Well,

this is a spin-off project. Okay.
Judge Judy created this as a side proj

for some deadbeat judge and lawyer friends of hers. Okay.

And And the gimmick is there are three judges.

Okay.

I've seen you watch this. I do watch this a lot.
You've watched Hot Bench. But you don't know who did the voiceover.
I do not know who they did the voiceover.

I went as Judge Judy for Halloween and ever since did like last year.

It's truly remarkable. I did not think for a second, Louisa, that you were going to come in hot bench style hot and just be like, that's hot bench.

That's hot bench. I didn't know anyone watched hot bench.
It's been on for, well, I think it's like 2013 or something. Well, that's because nobody does.

Why do you watch it?

Because it's just on after Judge Judy. It's on after Judge Judy, and you like judge shows.
Yeah. Well, I mostly just like Judge Judy.
Right. Okay, but then entropy sets in.

All right. So, but did you know that for the first five or six seasons until very recently, I think until 2020,

the narrator who introduces the show, this side, that side, and the truth, justice from from every angle. Hot bench.
Yeah.

Is a voice actor named Rhino Romano?

Oh, really?

Yes.

And who is Rhino Romano, Louisa? Oh, God. This is incredible.
I know his name, but off the top of my head, I can't name any of his roles except for now the hot bunch guy.

He played Batman or voiced Batman in the animated series The Batman from 2004-2008. He was Spider-Man in Spider-Man Unlimited 1999-2001.

He also provides voice narration for the PBS series Curious George. And he also played Benny, the skeleton taxi driver

in a little show called, or, or, or movie, or I don't know what it is.

I never heard of it, but it's called Halloween Down,

which is the subject of this dispute, or at least associated with the subject of the dispute. You both became so, you both got so close to guessing this.
I'm so sorry that all guesses are wrong.

So we have to hear the case. Who brings the case before me? Which of you, two siblings, I believe? Yes.
Brings this case before me. That would be me.
That is Louisa. What is the nature of your case?

Josie has a gigantic box that she wants to paint to look like a taxicab.

Okay. So that she can sit inside of it while dressed as a skeleton.
Specifically the skeleton Benny from the movie Halloween Town. Is that correct? Yeah, I didn't know it had a name.

Josie, who is Benny and what is Halloween Town and where did you get the spots? Halloween Town is a movie I was obsessed with when I was a small child.

It's a movie about some kids who

chase their grandmother on Halloween to

classic Halloween

thing to do. You know, trick-or-treat, TP some trees and chase your grandma.
Yeah. And they end up in...

It's just like a town in another dimension or something where it's just Halloween all the time. Okay.
And time works differently there also. I don't know.
But anyway, during the movie, they

both get help and also have to run away from a taxi that is manned by a skeleton named Benny, who just does a lot of bone puns. And this movie was on the Disney Channel or something?

It was, I think, a theatrical release originally, and then they just kept making sequels on Disney Channel. I don't know.
I've never heard of this movie before today. There's like four of them.
Okay.

And I see that it was filmed in Salem, Oregon, which is the capital of the state of Oregon where

you two live. Is that correct? You're in Portland, Oregon.
Yes. I see.

And I didn't know that it was, they have like a little Halloween town display with like the big pumpkin and they have a little Benny in a taxicab and everything. I didn't know that this existed.

My friend found it on accident and was like, huh, I'm in this weird place where there's a skeleton taxi. That's weird.
And yeah, that was. This is an attraction

based on the film. Yeah, in where the film is based on this.
Yeah.

okay got it so and have you made have you have you uh made pilgrimage to this uh shrine to your favorite film 1998 disney channel original movie halloween town i haven't been able to i wanted to um in 2020 we couldn't go because of covet restrictions um and then 2021 we were just busy and then

too busy for halloween town yeah

and you want me to rule in your favor to turn this old box into a halloween halloween town yeah shrine well no you're too busy to even go see real life halloween town it's not a shrine

okay what is it it's a box right now it's a box i'm going to turn it it's like do you know those like things in amusement parks where it's like cardboard and then there's a cutout for your head okay gotcha yeah i want to do that with the box but it's a taxi and then i dress up as a skeleton and i sit inside it and it's like a decoration like for the lawn or like a cosplay i guess right Okay.

Sold. Go ahead and do it.
Why? Why, Louisa? Why? Your siblings, you live, you cohabitate? We will be moving in with each other towards the end of the year. We do currently also live with each other.

We do live with each other in our parents' house. But you're moving later into the cardboard box? No.
God, no, please. I'm okay with it.

So, where is the cardboard box currently? I believe in our hallway again.

Again? Yes. What do you mean? It keeps reappearing? Is it a haunted cardboard box? It hasn't left the hallway.
Where did the cardboard box first appear in your lives? The hallway.

The hallway. I don't know where it came from.
One morning in Portland, you woke up. There was a strange mist, and the cardboard box appeared.
Yes. I am not kidding.

And every now and then it goes away, but sometimes it reappears. I don't know where the cardboard box came from.
I put some plushies in it because I thought it was just a box we were going to destroy.

And then we tried to clean out the hallway. And I said, okay, I'll take this box downstairs and I'll recycle it later.
And that's how I discovered Josie's nefarious plan.

Can we just do a reconstruction here?

It's early one morning. A strange mist has rolled through town.
No one understands it. Louisa goes down the stairs.

It's early morning. Walks down the hall, bonks into an empty cardboard box.

Louise looks down and goes, hmm, don't know where that came from. It's sure to be destroyed.
Let me put some plushies in there. Yeah.

Right? Because

Louisa, you're probably carrying a bunch of plushies and you're like, what am I going to do with these plushies?

The first time I noticed the box, I had just gotten three Mickey Mouse plushies that were moderately sized and I didn't have anywhere to put them yet. Sure.

Sure, of course. Yeah, now that you say that, everything makes perfect sense.
Yeah. Plus, you were suffering from the scarlet fever.
Yeah.

Three moderately sized Mickey Mouse plushies, but you had just gotten them.

Did they also appear in the mist? Or do you know where they came from? No, that appearing in the mist is how Mickey is with me. Not with Lou, but with me.

How do you mean, Josie? Lou collects Mickey things.

Are you wearing? No, you're wearing Donald. I'm wearing a Donald shirt, but these are Mickey Mouse pants.
Yes. Lou.
Okay. Lou collects Mickey things and also dolls.
And I'm.

There's a Mickey right there. Yeah, there is a Mickey right here.
I just, like, mind my business, and next thing I know, there's Mickey things everywhere. And they just show up from my point of view.

This is a scary house.

This is a scary house. I once went downstairs and sitting across like I walked into our dining room.
You know, it was dark out. No one else had gotten up.

And I walked into our dining room and there was a Mickey Mouse plushie just seated on the other end of the table like it was a person. And it was just there.

And that was the first thing I saw in the morning in the dark.

Did the Mickey Mouse say to you in the darkness? Ah, Josie, have a seat. Thank you for joining me.
I'd like to talk to you. No.
Sit down at at the table with me. Join me.
I'm on my way to destruction.

No, he was wearing a really fancy suit, though, because it was his birthday. Sure, of course.
So Mysterious Box shows up. You put some plushies in it.
And then what happens?

You decide to take the plushies out. What? And Josie says,

I'm going to turn it into a phony taxicab for skeletons. Well, it stayed like that for about six months.
Quick question, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way.

Do you live with your parents or the corpses of your parents?

Our parents are quite active.

Not active enough to get the cardboard box out of their hall. They live on a separate floor.
We live on the second floor, and so we have our own hallway. You have your own hallway.
Okay, I got you.

And so your parents, quite wisely, because you're adults, you're in your 20s, correct? Yes, I'm 21. Josie is going on 25.
Your parents,

are they at the upper level or the lower level? Lower level. Lower, yeah, they're like, just let Louise and Josie do whatever they want at this point.
Quite Quite literally, yes. Leave them alone.

They're adults. Leave them alone with their Mickeys and their boxes and their plans and their schemes.
Yes. Also, mom's disabled.
She doesn't come up here very often. I see.
Yeah.

Louisa and Josie enter and leave the house by means of trellis and open bedroom window. Of course.
Of course. I do have a ladder outside to get out of my window.
Well,

that's just being safe. Yeah.
Yeah.

But neither of you know where, the provenance of this mystery box. She says that she does.
I do. Josie, where did the mystery box come from? Yeah.
Okay.

I don't know why we have the box, like why we had the box originally. Our parents got the box.
I would think so.

Unless you have a box ghost. That would be weird.
We have had ghosts, but not box ghosts.

Put a pin in that and we'll come back and remember that.

No, I asked our parents yesterday why we had the box and they said that they don't really remember. We think it was a chair that they bought

back in like January, but it came in like this big box and I came home from something. I don't know, work or

going out somewhere. I don't know.
And I came home and there was this big box in the living room and I'm in charge of taking out the recycling. So I was like, huh.

This is a perfect box for making it to a taxi. And that was...
It doesn't have all these God or whatever damn plushies in it. I could turn this box into a taxi.
Well, there wasn't anything in it yet.

I don't think Lou was home yet. No, she then took it upstairs, and then I had these plushies that I had gotten.
Yeah.

And I put them in there, and then it stood there for about six months until we tried to clean the hallway. And did you fail? Yes.

Did you clean the hallway? No, we did. It sounds like you made a valiant effort.
We definitely did some cleaning.

How many other mystery items were in the hallway? Oh, a lot. A lot.
A lot of of glitter. There was a strange wardrobe that led to another planet.
There was...

Well, we do have strange wardrobes, but it didn't lead to another planet.

The thing with the hallway is that we had a house fire several years ago now. Seven years ago, eight years ago.

And they packed up all of our stuff, like everything in the house, and then brought it back to us. And it's just like...

boxes and they didn't really separate anything it was literally that they just shoved everything in a box this is fine of course but that means we have like they just gave us a whole bunch of stuff

that was miscellaneous. Like some of it's garbage, and then some of it's not garbage.
And it's really hard to distinguish what is and isn't. And it's all in a bunch of boxes.

Okay, so I'm sorry about your house fire. Your things were returned

mysteriously. Yes.
In boxes. And you haven't unpacked, basically.
So you wander around in chaos up there. Yeah.

Okay, that's fair. I mean, we definitely have gotten a lot of it fixed, like a lot of it cleaned up, but there's still more to go through, for sure.
I understand.

And downstairs, your parents, have they unpacked their fire boxes?

A lot of the fireboxes were actually put upstairs. So it's not just your possessions, it's also theirs.
Sometimes, yes. We have a lot of tax documents.

And that's part of why we have to separate it, is because it's also theirs. Got it.

And but you're going to move out of this house soon, is what you were saying.

So we're making an effort to get all of that fixed oh good that's very that's very good good good children i appreciate that but meanwhile you're wandering around in total chaos carrying plushies without boxes to put them in very much so and wearing mickey mouse's pants they just have mickey on them i have the other pair of mickey mouse pants that does have mickey's face on it we should get you pair of pants that'd be great i have two pairs of mickey pants no i mean like mickey's pants though i have those too no she means kill mickey and take his pants.

That also. Oh, I can do that.
Kill the mouse, take the pants. Kill the mouse, take the pants.

Sucks to your ass, Mar.

Okay.

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You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
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All right, I think I've basically reconstructed how this came about. First of all, Louisa, where are those plushies now, if not in the box? Did you find another husk for them? They're in a corner.

Yeah, they look like they're in a corner of a room. Are they on punishment? Yeah, because I tried to put them in a little hammock and they fell out because they were too many.

It's the most terrifying house I've ever conjured in my imagination. I have some others.
There's about...

How many Mickey plushies would you say you got? Including other characters like Donald, Daisy, Goofy. Let's start with Mickey plushes and then move on from there.
Back of the envelope.

A meaningful look is being exchanged. I would say about seven or eight.
Yeah, I would say about seven or eight. Seven or eight, because I also have a giant one in the downstairs.

And they got you a new one yesterday. They did get me a brand new Mickey Plushie yesterday.
Yes. Who's they? The other plushies? My parents.
Oh, okay, that's nice. They're enablers, too.

Let it be known that the siblings exchanged a meaningful look and I suspect telepathic communication. It's more if you count other Disney characters because I also have a lot of minis.

I have a good amount of Donald. I only have one goofy.
I don't have any Pluto. That's fair.
Oh, I thought you did have a Pluto. I don't have any Pluto.

No one wants a Pluto. I don't like Pluto.
I don't mind him. Pluto is no personality.
It's a real punishment for Goofy for being in the only good things with those characters in them.

I only have one Goofy. You only have one Goofy.

Look, look,

you're a Mickey person and a mini person. I also also really like Donald.
My favorite character is Chip and Dale, but I only have one plushie of both of them. I thought Nicky was your favorite.

Why do you have so many...

Hang on.

I'm with Josie. Why do you have so many Mickeys if you love Chip and Dale?

Are you cursed?

Do you have some kind of curse on you? No,

I also really love Mickey, but I also have this deep adoration for Chip and Dale. Here's the thing, Judge Hodgman.
Every time I get a Chippendale, it turns into a Mickey.

Well, technically, it first turns into a mist, then into a Mickey. Right.
I rubbed a monkey's paw, and every time I get a chip and dale, they overnight they turn into six Mickeys.

And I've got nowhere to put them except these empty cardboard boxes that materialize. And the couch.
And the couch and at the dining room table for special midnight tea parties.

And in the punishment corner. Yeah.

Okay. I love this collection.
I love this hobby.

It's fantastic. You deserve a place.
You know, as Judge John Odgman has often ruled, the difference between a hoard and a collection is storage, correct storage potential.

And it seems like Louisa Josie wants to steal your special plushie box from you to turn it into something else. I can store the plushies in other places.

The only plushie I'm having trouble on is the one that's like the size of a toddler, but I can, I just want that box out.

Plushie,

what kind kind of, is this a Mickey? Yeah, it's Mickey. Was it also purchased at the grocery store? No, I got it at a thrift store for $5.

A Mickey. It is.

The only problem I have is with this Mickey Plushie that's the size of a toddler. Might be a little bigger than a toddler.
Can we hold this one for Halloween? This is Halloween town.

And this thrift store one definitely has scarlet fever. Yes, absolutely.

Okay.

All right. Louisa,

if it is not a Mickey storage problem, why why do you care what Josie does with this mystery box?

Because it's giant and every time we clean up the hallway, it just goes back into the hallway and takes up all of the space in the hallway.

The spot that we cleaned in the hallway got completely taken up by the box, which blocked access to her filing cabinet. Get rid of the box! Get rid of the box.
Yeah. It's been there for six months.

I don't want the box. I want to get rid of it.
You don't want the box. No, I do not want the box.
I want to break it down.

Josie, you've had six months to follow up with your Halloween town taxicab project what is your vision and why is it taking so long okay so i have talked extensively with my friend jasper about this jasper and i yeah we've talked a lot about this podcast and how to save the box um anyway but the box the thing about the box is that um it was winter here for like forever.

It didn't really stop being winter until like when the end of winter time. A full month ago.
Yeah, pretty much around like early July.

and it's just it was too rainy in order to yeah and by and by winter in portland do you mean it's 72 degrees and damp no i mean it was just raining constantly right okay i got you john 68 degrees and damp 72 degrees and damp is summer okay i gotcha yeah it was definitely a lot colder than that but anyway so um

Yeah, I didn't have the opportunity to actually work on the box because it just,

it wouldn't have been able to have the proper ventilation or drying or anything in order to paint it. Or, you know.
You need to be outside in order to make your skeleton taxi. I got you.
Okay.

So you've been waiting for your chance and now your chance has come. Yes.
It has stopped raining for 24 hours in Portland and you want to get out there and make this. Yes.

And where do you want to store it once it is made? So we've been working on that. There's a couple options.
One is that I actually don't mind it being a storage box. Like, you can put things in it.

I don't care about that.

The other thing is that we could also we've thought about ways that we could potentially disassemble it and then reassemble it because it's a fold, it's a box that's folded, right?

So we've considered ways. I mean, it's also going to have to be unfolded anyway and then reassembled in order to waterproof it properly.

But

we are thinking of ways that we could potentially like fold. Who's we? You and Jasper? Yeah, me and Jasper.
You send in some evidence, including an affidavit from Jasper. Yes.

But most importantly, a photo of the box. Yes.
I also also have the dimensions. I'm not sure if those were included, but I have the dimensions on my phone.
It's 34 by 31 by 17. Those are

inches. So, okay, so those are the dimensions.

Everyone can take their tape measure and figure this out for themselves. I'm lucky enough to have a photo here

of you, Josie, sitting inside the box relatively comfortably. Yeah.

I mean, you got two thumbs up in this photo. So that means you're comfortable sitting inside the box.
Yeah, plenty of thumb room. Right.

You're sitting almost upright. So it's a pretty capacious box.

And then we have a photo of your version of the cab in Animal Crossing. What is this, Josie?

So part, okay. So I got Animal Crossing.
When was that? Like March, May of last year? I'm going to say it was May of last year. We all know when we all got Animal Crossing.

Yeah, I started working in my town and I was like, what would be a fun idea?

Let's do Halloween town, Which kind of also kind of backfired on me a little bit because it turns out because my town is so out of season half the time that

it gives me a bad island rating a lot. But anyway,

my island though, I made like a Halloween town themed island and I thought it'd be really fun if I had like that little cutout thing of the taxi.

And so I painstakingly recreated it and then discovered that there's no good skeleton makeup in Halloween town. No, in Animal Crossing, yeah.

And there's no like, and there's a skeleton hood, but you can't see it over the face or anything.

In that screenshot, I had my skin tone turned to white. And that helped a little bit, but it's not the same.
Yeah, that's a common complaint with Animal Crossing.

That there's not enough skeleton makeup. Skeleton makeup.
Not enough skeleton makeup. But your dream is to sit inside this box the way you were seated inside of it.
Yes, this is before I got the box.

No, I understand. Okay.
So you always had this dream of getting a big big box. You're saying you dreamed of making a box into a Halloween town fake taxi, and then this box suddenly appeared? Yes.

That's exactly right. You manifested this

creepy box in the hallway. I might have because, I mean, mom and dad don't exactly remember what they even bought to get it,

but it was in our living room.

This is really scary. Okay.

So just so that I can picture this, you want to sit inside this box and stick your head out of a hole in the box as though you are the driver. And will you be wearing makeup as Benny the skeleton?

Or are you going to be wearing a skeleton mask? Something like that. I'm undecided.
I have potential Halloween costumes for skeleton-themed characters for Halloween that I was thinking of doing.

But we're working on it.

And then you'll, once you put your head through the hole as skeleton Josie, the cab driver, driver yeah jasper if this person really exists will be there to take your photograph yeah

then will you be done or will you fold up the box for the next time you want to sit in it and have your photograph taken oh i would definitely um like put it away until the next time i could potentially need it um but what is the need what is the need here

the need the the need to dress up as a skeleton and sit inside a taxi right

And you do this at actual Halloween?

Halloween.

We were also thinking about like potentially for conventions or something. Like taxicab conventions? No, just like as a cosplay.

Louise, I heard you muttering under your breath and in an annoyed sibling style. Could you share what you were saying with the rest of the class? Josie hasn't gone to a convention in years.

It's been COVID. It's been COVID.
Before that, you did not go to convention. I went to conventions.
You would not cosplay. That's That's because it didn't have a skeleton taxi box.
Right, obviously.

We're all waiting for our calling, Louisa. Also, they were philately conventions.
So postage stamps, just postage stamps.

Go ahead, Louisa. You seem to want to say something, and I don't blame you.
Well, postage stance does bring up another issue that I fear.

Josie works at a UPS store. And so there is a very high probability that she could find another box.
Not in that size.

She says that. Not that size.
People bring in their boxes all the time. I also used to work at a UPS store.
Okay, no, I understand. I don't mean to question your experience as a former UPS employee.

I'm just saying that very few of the UPS boxes are manifested magically from Josie's imagination. There must have been some magic in that old brown box she found.
Thank you.

I would say like it'd be a lot easier at my job if I could manifest boxes. Instead of writing out manifests.

Shipping humor. Anyway.
John, I ship you in the UPS store.

Louisa, is Josie capable of making a good-looking skeleton taxi out of this box?

In her defense, she is a teacher. Does the record show that Josie is whispering? Yes, yes, yes, yes.
We are both artists.

Josie does traditional art like painting, so it's very possible that she could paint a skeleton cab. My concern is that that we won't have anywhere to put it.

There was also talk about adding to the skeleton cab to create more layers to it. No, it wasn't layers.
Well, it was kind of like layers, but it wasn't layers.

You wanted to put another space in it for people to sit inside. Kind of.

Okay,

tell me more about your skeleton cab expansion project. Okay, so I was showing this box to Jasper, and

they suggested that

we add a second box to the side of it, like where my legs would go, to both to create a hood for the taxi and also to make it a little bit more comfortable to sit in.

And that would also create more room for a second person to sit behind me.

Yeah, well, I mean, it's just a box right now. And I think, Jasper, whatever this mystical creature that you communicate with.

is not wrong in that it would look more like a taxi if it had a if it had a hood and a trunk. Right.

And I saw the perfect box on the side of the road the other day, and I didn't grab it, both because it had stuff inside it and also because I didn't want

to upset Lou too much before the trial. Like, I don't know if I'm still allowed to keep the original box, so I didn't want to.

You know, there's an argument about whether it is better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. I'm already sort of begging for forgiveness, though, is the thing.
Why? What have you done wrong?

Honestly,

know

what has josie done wrong there's this box sitting around that josie is dreaming about why is this dream so offensive to you because i don't think that we're gonna have anywhere to put it genuinely i don't think we're gonna have anywhere to put it um she says we can use it as storage but there's gonna be a hole in it because she has to stick her head out somehow so it's not gonna be very good for storage it was already she's not talking about turning it into an aquarium no but i mean in the all my plushies would fall out All my plushies would fall out.

Okay, here's the thing though, is that it was already on its side like it was going to be in the first place. And Lou had already put the plushies in it.

Like it wasn't laying flat and Lou put the plushies on it. I mean it was lying upright.
It was upright like in the pictures and Lou already had put filled it with plushies to begin with.

It's hard to imagine someone criticizing someone else for creating storage space when the first person is purchasing Mickey Mouses at the Piggly Wiggly.

There is something to that, I have to say. When do you two plan to move out of where you are now? Approximately December.
Approximately December. So really the question is,

does this box come with you? And does it come with you as a box or as a skeleton taxicab?

It is also important to note that she has suggested that until we move out, she store it in our parents' basement. That was a last-minute resort because you said you didn't want it in the hallway.

There's no room in the hallway. It's blocking the filing cabinet.
Okay, here's, here's the other thing about the hallway is that we found this out because Lou was like, let's clean the hallway.

So we cleaned a little bit of the hallway and Lou was like, let's get rid of this box. And I went, okay, but I don't want to do that.

So I put it in my room, but you know, it's big, so I don't, and I have a very small room. And I would still keep it there, honestly, if I had no other resort.

But, you know, we cleaned a space in the hallway and I went, perfect. Now I could put the box back.
There's a room for it. So I put the box back, but Lou still thinks it's garbage.

And so they consider that dirtying the hallway. Yeah, it's garbage.

Until it's a skeleton taxi cab, it's garbage. But I can't turn it into that.
You've had a month to do that. It's been sunny out there.

I haven't had the option because this whole month we've spent with waiting for this podcast, Lou. You're saying that skeleton taxi cab has been on hold because of me?

Because the wheels of justice move slower than a skeleton taxicab? I'm the reason. I'm the problem.
You are Calabar. I don't even know what that is.
The villain of Halloween Town.

The villain of the town. I'm the villain of Halloween Town.
That's not true.

It's not true that I'm the villain or the Calabar.

No, Calabar is the villain. It's not true that you're the villain.

I don't think there was a villain in this.

Louisa, does Josie have a history of procrastinating on these kinds of projects? Yes. Tell me more about that history.
It took her about a year to sew

pearls on a skirt. What? Right.
That skirt you were making? The cost by one? Yeah, it took you about a year to make that. That took a week.
And not take a week. Yes, it did.
I wore it to a convention.

Do you experience time differently in your haunted upstairs apartment?

I have like dates on that because I have like it's on my old tumbler when I was working on that skirt. Any other non-contentious examples of Josie's procrastination, Louisa?

Um, I mean, I do procrastinate. I have ADHD and I was only medicated recently.
Okay. All right.
All right. In addition, not just artistically, she also just procrastinates on...

I mean, the hallway not being clean yet is a good example of that. What's...
How long is this hallway? Not very long.

Like, is it a thousand feet long? I don't know. What is unclean about this hallway? Still, there's this box in it.
What else is in there? Taxes. They're not ours.
Taxes in the filing cabinets.

It's not in the filing cabinets. The filing cabinets are empty, which is really confusing, actually.
You're supposed to put things in the filing cabinet and you blocked it off with the box.

Have your parents let you out of the attic since you were children? We were homeschooled. Have you been inventing your whole world? Oh, now, Andy's.

Okay, you've been inventing your whole world this entire time.

All right.

I do have some testimony from your parents and from the mysterious Jasper. Yes.
May I read that into the record? Yes. Sure.
All right.

So your father's statement, or as charmingly written here, our papa's statement, quote, I am the father of these two goons.

And as their father, I demand to see the skeleton of them. That sounds awesome.
I don't care about the cab. Leave me out of it.

Our mama's statement is as follows, quote, I am writing about the taxi box or the cab box or whatever they're calling it.

Both of these kids are chuckleheads, and you should conk them on the the noggin and send them home. But that is not the way.

They're at home. They're at their home upstairs haunted home.
The box should by rights be recycled.

It's big, it's in the way, and I worry that we'll just have to do it ourselves when we force them to move out at the end of the year.

But Josie is 25 or darn close. If you rule in her favor, please require her to keep it in her room, not the hallway, not my basement.
That's where I do my non-family stuff.

What is mama doing in the basement, I wonder? Knitting.

More knitting. I give it maybe two weeks before we have to break the box down, but she's stubborn.
She may end up doing something with it. Who knows? And finally, Jasper

says,

first of all, I'm a real person. No, Jasper says, this world sucks pretty hard sometimes.
You got to find the things that bring you joy and hold on to them.

If those things are skeleton taxi boxes, so be it. Seems to me like the crux of this disagreement.
Holy moly, Jesse Thorne, Jasper,

Jasper the friendly ghost,

is trying to tell Judge John Hodgen what the crux is. Wow.
They say the crux of the disagreement is over whether wanting a skeleton taxi box is valid or not. And personally, I think it's valid.

It's not hurting anybody. It's not causing any major grievance.
It is literally an empty cardboard box.

If we can't enjoy things because other people consider them a waste of space, what do we really have left in life?

Sometimes you have to do what makes you happy, even if it seems silly to other people. Silliness is not a good enough reason to discard a thing that brings someone some joy.

We all deserve some good things in life. And if a skeleton taxi box does that for you, I'm all for it.
Heck yeah, dude.

And it says here, signed Jasper, dictated, this is interesting, dictated to Josie via Ouija board midnight last night.

Jasper's a real person. Yes.
Your real friend. We went to art school together.
I can tell.

We spent too much time in zippy.

Because Jasper makes a real point, which is like, you got to, you know, embrace your silliness. Do you think that Louisa is trying to quash your silliness in life? A little bit.

Has that always gone on? Louisa is your younger sibling. Is that correct? Yes.

I don't think Lou,

I mean,

it depends because Lou doesn't like when I'm being silly outside of the house. How so? Give me an example.
I don't like it when she sings on buses.

Lou doesn't like anyone, like anything that calls attention to her, like on the bus or if we're standing in line or just standing outside or walking. It really bothers them.

What kind of song do you sing on the bus? Whatever. I mean, I don't really sing on the bus.
Usually I sing when we're waiting in line or something, but it's just like humming to myself.

It's usually humming like K-pop or something, like whatever's just stuck in my head. She does K-pop choreography.
No, I don't. Yes, you do.

Why would you deny doing K-pop choreography if you do it? Sick of your lies.

Do you or do you not do K-pop choreography, Josie? I don't think I do.

If I do, it's unconscious, and that's weird. Are you saying that you're that when you fall asleep, a K-pop spirit inhabits your body and does it for you?

That's a terrifying thought, but I would have no idea because I'm asleep. Certainly seems to fit in with every other terrifying thing that's happening up in this weird

department. Louisa, do you resent your older sibling because they get to be silly and you have to be serious? Lou is not.

That's the other thing: Lou dresses as a clown outside the house, and that's fine.

I haven't dressed as a clown in four years. That is also not true.
You dressed as a clown last year when you were working at Subway.

Why do you think that Louisa tries to quash your silliness? I don't know. Louisa, do you dispute that you try to quash Josie's silliness? And when you quash it, are you dressed as a clown?

Again, I have not. And when you dress as a clown, do you pop up from the sewers?

I have a picture taken from last year where Lou is where I'm dressed as so-and-so from Teen Girl Squad and Lou is dressed as a clown. Lou's about to stab me.

I was going to work. I worked at Subway.

I was Rozo the the Subway clown, and no one liked it.

I haven't dressed as a proper clown.

Excuse me. Please finish that sentence.
I'll just rephrase what you said. I haven't dressed as a proper clown.

Go on, finish. Whatever you were going to say.
I just want to hear the rest of that sentence. I will give you $100 to finish that sentence.

I have dressed as a proper clown in about four years when I made a child cry on the bus.

I haven't. I went

far better than I thought it could have gone. I just want to make sure I understand what you said.
I haven't dressed as a proper clown in about four years since I made that child cry on the bus.

Yeah, non-subway clown.

Just a normal clown. Well, you're a bus clown, to be fair.
I was going to. You're still a public transport clown.
Oh, it's been long. It's been sick.

It's been five years because I was 16 when I stopped dressing as a clown. It doesn't seem, this is my point, Josie.

It doesn't seem like anybody is putting, anyone's putting a damper on your silliness other than your mama and your papa who call you chuckleheads and goons but what lovingly no one's putting a damper on your silliness the problem is there's a box in the middle of the hallway that's fun i get it you're moving in december yes what's the place do you have a place or do you not have a place we don't yet know okay we're kind of playing it by year but that's also why i'm trying to get it so it's like foldable of some kind I think she wants us to find a place structured around the box in a way.

That's ridiculous.

have you looked at apartments in halloween town um why did you put that idea in her head i have it because i don't want to move out that far no one wants i mean yeah i'm sure salem oreg is nice but you live in portland you want to stay in portland i don't like a lot of other cities even though it's really hard to live here is this the house that you grew up in yes how does it feel when you contemplate moving out um

it feels

Yeah, it feels sad because, you know, we grew up here. We love it here.
It also feels nice to get our independence away from our parents because we love our mama and papa.

Sure, so do I. My mom is going to be ecstatic that you said that.

But we also want our independence and we want to grow up. And I think we should grow up without the cab box.

Is this the argument you're making? It's time to grow up. It's time to put childish things aside.
No. Like the Mickey plushies? No.

because that means I have to give up my incredibly expensive Disney dolls and I don't want to do that.

My argument is that we shouldn't have a box in our house that's the size of a small child. But my aim is to get this done before Halloween.

And by then, it should be able to be like usable either as a storage option or as

folded up and easy to put away. Where would you put it if you folded it up? My room or something.
I don't know. It should be mostly flat.
Do you have a bed or a or a futon or like a coffin or what?

My bed doesn't have any space underneath, so I wouldn't be able to put it under there, but I would be able to put it like next to it or something.

Like against the wall or behind my desk, maybe. Louisa, is that unacceptable to you? I don't think she'll do it.

I have a fear that I'll come out of my room one day and just find the cab box in our living room. I'm also afraid it's going to fall over and squish my dog.
Because he's not able to.

It's really light.

If you're going to put things in it. Oh, well, that's possible, but also it'd be against the wall and there would be things in it, so it wouldn't fall over.

I don't think the cab box is sturdy enough to be storage. I'm afraid that I'm going to come out of my room and find it there.

How delicate is your dog? Very. He has lupus.
He's not that delicate. Well, he does have lupus, but he's not that delicate.
He's a chiweenie.

That means a chihuahua and a wiener dog. Yes.

His name is Stuart. Stuart the Chihuahuaxund? Yeah.
Yeah. With lupus.
With lupus.

That's a sequel to Marcel the Shell with Shoes On. Stuart the Chihuahuaxin with Lupus.

He gets crushed by a lot of things very easily. Oh, he likes that.
Yeah, he also does often seek out to get crushed by things.

We can't have more information. At the end of the day, we've had sufficient information.

All right, so Louisa, if you want me to rule in your favor, what do you want me to rule? I want to get rid of the cab box. I don't think we have room for it.

I don't think she's ever going to do anything with it. I'm afraid that there's going to be expansions made to it.

I'm okay with other Halloween town paraphernalia if she wants to acquire that. I don't want paraphernalia.
That's the issue. She also hates things that she considers what, like trinkets.
Yeah.

And so she doesn't collect anything like that. And as a result, I have a collection, but a lot of my collection are smaller things.
I have a lot of dolls. Right.
Just one toddler-size Mickey.

Josie, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule? Um, I mean,

ideally, I would keep the box like as long as I want.

But I also understand not being,

I would like to be able to have it until the end of Halloween. Okay.
Like to have a chance to actually make it to a taxi box, get it all sorted, all that business.

I haven't had the chance to organize time

and to get all the supplies needed to change it.

into a taxi but i also and like not change transform transform but also like um the the other thing though is like organizing when jasper is able to come over so we can get it all set up and everything so i mean jasper is is gonna help you yes do you need jasper's help to get this project done um probably not but like we were they've got like they've um helping me with the blueprints and everything so it would be helpful and they can only be summoned during a full moon um kind of they have very strange work hours Fair enough.

I'm going to crawl into my night court themed cardboard box that I'm going to be using in my chambers right now. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Louisa, how do you feel about your chances in this case? Um,

I have a sneaky suspicion I'm going to end up keeping the cab box until October. Once October hits, I'm using it as fire kindling.
Josie?

I am scared that I'm going to lose my taxi box.

But, like, yeah, I'm hoping that I keep it at least until the end of October. I'm hoping.
Yeah. We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

Hello. Hello, I'm calling on behalf of the Beef and Dairy Network podcast.
Oh, no, I'm sorry. No sales calls.
Goodbye.

It's a multi-award-winning podcast featuring guests such as Ted Danson, Nick Offerman, Josie Long. I don't know what a Josie Long is.

And anyway, I'm about to take my mother into town to see Phantom of the Opera at last. You are wasting my time, and even worse, my mother's time.
She only has so much time left. She's 98 years old.

She's only expected to live for another 20 or 30 years. Mother, get your shoes on.
Yes, the orthopaedic ones. I don't want to have to carry you home again, do I? Right.

Well, if you were looking for a podcast. Mother, you're not wearing that, are you? It's very revealing, Mother.
This is a musical theater, not a Parisian bordello. Simply go to maximum fun.org.

I'm reaching for my Samsung Galaxy 4 as we speak. Mother! Mother, not that hat!

Judge Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case. Let's talk about what we've got coming up.
What have you got coming up, John? Well, obviously, Dick Town is available on Hulu.

If you haven't checked it out or haven't had a chance to watch the second season, please go to bit.ly slash Dick Town. It's so great.
Watch it. Don't be a chump.
And, you know, sometime in the future,

the reason that I'm in New York most of the summer is that I've been working on this wonderful show called Up Here, which will also be on Hulu. So you can check that out when it comes out.

But in the meantime, I just want to, our friend Gene Gray, who's so talented, so smart, so funny, so wise, has spent every Sunday so far this summer and will continue to host her Church of the Infinite You stream on Twitch Sundays at 1 p.m.

Eastern. You do the math for your other time zones.

And it's just Jean giving a non-denominational, totally secular sermon.

about how to not be so hard on yourself and how to take a break in life and reflect upon what you got and where you want to go.

And it's funny and it's smart and it's interactive and there's chat and the people there are really nice.

And even if you don't feel like interacting, turning it on in the background of a Sunday afternoon is a wonderful thing to do. So I urge you all to go, please, to twitch.tv slash gene of the grays.

That's Gene, J-E-A-N, of the Grays, G-R-A-E-S.

And follow or subscribe or whatever you need to do on Twitch to make sure you get that email that says, Gene Gray is going live. Church of the Infinite You, Sundays, 1 p.m.
Eastern. Check it out.

Jesse, what have you got going on? August 24th is the premiere of season 13 of Archer on FXX, and I am in the very first scene of the new season. I'm so excited about it.
It is my life's dream.

I want everyone to watch for two reasons. Number one is because it's one of the best shows.
Certainly my favorite show.

And number two, because I want to spend the next 10 years swimming in 18 cent residual checks. So let's make this happen, everybody.
18 cents at a time, 18 cents once a month.

That's what I'm looking for from you watching the season premiere of season 13 of Archer, which is the greatest show. It's going to be on FXX, FXX on Hulu.
What a joy it was to get to record

like a total, absolute dream of mine. So watch that, please.
Archer, Dick Town, up here, all on FX on Hulu. Check it out.
Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So your mama and papa should be very proud. Thank you.

You're both wonderful. There's a lot of scary stuff happening in your house.

Like, as soon as I started to hear about the Chiweeni wanting to be crushed and is frequently crushed and then apparently resurrected. He's crushed.
He's squished.

There's something that's really happening. Squished.

There's something that's, there's a lot happening up in your world, and I'm afraid that I'm being lured into your alternate dimension and I'll never come out.

My children are raised

and yet I still feel a duty to remain on planet Earth with them. I cannot go to your dimension and live with you as wonderful a dimension as it seems.
I think you are having a wonderful time together.

You obviously enjoy each other. And right? Is this all true?

You care about each other. I love Lou.
I love Jojo. I don't think there's anyone else I would rather room with.
Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, you know, this is one of the wonderful things that you don't get to see on the Judge John Hodgran podcast or hear on the Judge John Hodgran podcast very often.

Because usually the crux is one person resenting the other person and coming to terms with that. This doesn't feel like there's a resentment issue here.
This seems like a pure, straight-ahead.

Thank you, Jasper, the friendly ghost, for trying to find the crux. This feels like a clear, straight-ahead.
I got a cardboard box in my mystery hall problem.

And what do we do with this cardboard box? If you're not going to let me use it for my plushies, let me throw it away. No, someday I will turn this into a Halloween town-themed skeleton taxi.

Okay, when are you going to do that? Someday. Wait until it stops raining.
Ugh, we live in Portland. It'll never stop raining.
Someday, Jasper will materialize and I will do it.

In the meantime, let me just leave this box alone in the hallway can't you put it in your room no there's not enough room in my room yeah it's time for you guys to move out start a new life start haunting a new place in the meantime you got this box jasper's absolutely right you should make this into a halloween town cab you should have done it months ago when did you take that photo yourself sitting in that box last night last night

It's a good-looking box. It's not the kind of box you find every day.
I get it. But I'll tell you what, I know that that box materialized mysteriously in your hallway in January.

We are now at the beginning of August when we record this.

And I'm looking at that photo from last night. I see no Halloweeniness to that box at all.
No progress has been made. You haven't even cut a hole out in it.

I understand why Louisa is concerned that this thing is never gonna get done.

So

I think it is perfectly reasonable to say, get it done.

Get it done for when? Halloween, obviously. I know that these things take time.
You're busy. You know, you've got other stuff going on in your life, but we're months away from Halloween.

You have all the time in this world or any other to get it done for Halloween. And then

you're going to take it down and you're going to sit in that box and you're going to stick your skeleton head out as people come and trick-or-treat.

You're going to be out on the front porch or whatever. Jasper, quote unquote, Jasper is going to take a picture of you.
You're going to approve a picture. You're going to send it in.

We're going to to post it. Everyone's going to have fun.
And then you got to find a way to fold that thing up, fold it up and put it in your room.

Honestly, if you want to do this, you got to put the box in your room now.

Honestly, honestly.

I mean, I'm sure your room is small, but this is your Halloween skeleton taxi. This is your dream.
When you are cohabitating with another person, shared spaces must be shared equally.

Unless you can convince Louisa to put her plushies in the box until you're ready to make this thing. I think you need to experiment with folding it up and putting it in your room.

I'm a little concerned, honestly, that you're folding up. It'll never, once you break it down, I'm not sure that it'll ever be structurally as sound as it was.

Can you fit the whole box in your room right now without breaking it down?

Right now, yeah, it's kind of annoying, though. Yeah, that's Louisa's point.
Yeah, I know. You're making her point for her.

I would be concerned about breaking it down before you make it into a skeleton taxi because I'm not convinced that once you reassemble it, it'll have the same perfection.

So I would suggest that you put it in your room as much as possible. And if that is truly unfeasible, you may leave it in the hallway until Halloween, but you have to start working on it tomorrow.

Yeah, that's fine. I have today off, so I was planning to work on it today.
Even better.

And then after Halloween, it's going to disappear. It's going to get broken down.
It's going to get recycled. It's going to get preserved.

It's going to, you're going to, Jasper's going to take it for a while. They've offered.
Does Jasper have room in their pocket dimension for this? Currently. Yes.

It wouldn't surprise me. They apparently have several cardboard boxes just in their house.
I don't know why.

Yeah.

Leave it to Jasper the cardboard box ghost to hold on to it for you.

Louisa, I know that you've been stumbling over this thing for six months now, but Halloween will be here before you know it, and we have to see this thing through.

It would be criminal to not let Josie see this thing through, but once Josie has seen it through, it's got to be out from underfoot. It's got to be out of your way.
It's got to be gonzo.

It's got to become invisible to you. Fair enough, Louisa? That is completely fair.
This is the sound of a gabble. Catch me in the next line.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

How are you feeling, Josie?

I feel okay.

I mean, I'm sad that I don't... It's not exactly what I wanted, but I think that's very fair.
Exactly what you wanted is just to keep the box in the hallway forever. Yeah.

But like in various states of being a taxi. Yeah.

Louisa, how do you feel? I'm okay with this. I can live with it.
Well, I mean, especially because it's Josie that has to live with it. Yeah, mostly.
I resign myself to a lot of cruel fates.

I can work with this. Louisa Josie, thanks for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
Thank you, guys. Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books. Our thanks to Twitter user at Jack underscore Matthews for naming this week's episode Death Cab or Sue Me.

If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter for naming opportunities at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. While you're there, hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho.

And join in the conversation about this episode at maximumfun.reddit.com. Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account.
That's at instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to follow us there. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.
Our editor is Valerie Moffett.

Hey, Jesse, because we're talking about the spooky season Halloween coming up, I would love to prompt our listeners to consider Halloween-y disputes to maybe send in. Oh, yeah.

And I'm talking about disputes over costumes, maybe old grudges over a sibling who wore a better costume or whether they stole their costume idea.

Maybe you actually have a supernatural experience that you've never been able to explain and you'd like to share it with us.

I'm happy to rule on whether or not your paranormal experience is scary or medium scary or super scary. Halloween is the theme, but of course, we want to hear everything, don't we, Jesse?

Yeah, but no matter what your case is about, we want to hear about it at maximumfund.org/slash jjho. That's maximumfund.org/slash jjho.
Remember, no case is too big or too small.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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