Eating In A-Bed-Ing

Hey, it's Bailiff Jesse.

We wanted to let you know that this week's episode of Judge John Hodgman is partly, maybe even significantly, about the relationship between food and feelings.

It is a fun and friendly episode, don't worry, but we know that that subject is sensitive territory for some people, so we wanted to give you a heads up.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, eating and a bedding.

Sarah files suit against her husband, David.

Sarah loves to eat in bed, but has stopped doing it because David finds it disgusting.

Sarah, however, misses her old source of comfort and would like to eat in bed every once in a while.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

This is from Ausburg, my city.

So many people forget that the first country the Nazis invaded was their own.

You know, after the last war, my people struggled.

They felt weak.

They felt small.

And then Hitler comes along with the marching and the big show and the flags and the, and he hears of me and my work, and he finds me and he says, you, you will make us strong.

Well, I am not interested.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Sarah and David, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

Yes.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he doesn't eat at all, as he demonstrated in the late 19th century?

He subsists only on air?

I do.

Yeah, that's good.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

I'm a 100% breatharian.

It's true.

Well, during the holidays, I cheat a little bit.

I'll eat a speck of dust.

I'll lap up a speck of dust from a sunray on a winter afternoon.

But that's it.

That's my little indulgence.

Sarah and David, you may be seated.

For an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors, can either of you name the piece of obscure or not-so-obscure culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom.

Sarah, what's your guess?

I had a pre-made guess, but I'm wondering, is it Albert Einstein?

Is it Albert Einstein?

You're answered in the form of a question, which is not the code, but that's great.

What was your pre-made guess?

I'll add that to the guest list as well.

It was this scene from Chef with Jean Favreau and Scarlett Johansson when he serves her pasta carbonara in bed.

And it is a very

hot scene.

Sounds like Scarlett Johansson.

I was very confused for a moment.

I'm like, I'm not sure that's in the movie Shaft.

That doesn't sound like Shaft

Gordon Park's uncompromised vision in the director's cut.

A white guy serves a white woman pasta carbonara in bed.

That was a cut from shaft.

No, you meant chef, the movie chef.

Oh, did I say shaft?

No, I just misheard you.

I just misheard you.

It's not you, Sarah.

You're perfect.

David, I also think you're perfect.

What's your guess?

Thank you.

Jojo Rabbit.

Joe Joe Rabbit, directed by Taika Watiti.

Yes.

The director of Hunt for the Wilder People.

Yeah, that one's great.

That's my favorite.

So these are the guesses.

Joe Joe Rabbit, chef, shaft, and is it Albert Einstein?

And I'm here to tell you all guesses are wrong.

That quote is from the character Dr.

Abraham Erskine.

as played by Stanley Tucci in Captain America the First Avenger.

And why?

Why did I I quote Captain America the First Avenger?

Because,

as everyone knows, the greatest meal you can enjoy is a 2 a.m.

chicken Caesar salad at the Park Hyatt Chicago after a show watching Captain America the First Avenger.

Greatest meal I've ever had in my life.

And I ate it on the bed.

On the bet.

That was part of the experience.

And I also mention that because here we are.

We're coming towards the end of the year.

We have an ignominious anniversary coming up on January the 6th.

As we turn into this new year, take a moment to think what you're going to do to try to push back on anti-democratic authoritarian regimes and movements in this country.

Just a thought.

Put a thought to what you're going to do this year.

Inspired by Captain America, the First Avenger?

The First Avenger.

Yeah.

Look, you can find worse places for inspiration, trust me.

That's more of a Captain America, the Winter Soldier type of thing.

Yeah, but this quote is from The First Avenger.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, Sarah and David, thank you for joining us.

Sarah, you bring this case before us today.

I do.

But I have already ruled against you, have I not?

Yes.

You did.

But you didn't hear the whole story.

Well, let me just see.

I checked through the logs of the court.

January 13th, 2020, Sarah versus David at the live show at the Murmur Theater here in Brooklyn, our last live show before live shows stopped.

And this was in our open court segment.

One of you raised their hand and said, something is not right.

Which one, David, did you raise your hand?

No, I did.

Okay.

So, and Sarah,

at that time, what was what did you present to me in open court at that show?

I think I very simply said that I wanted to eat in bed and that my husband wouldn't let me.

And then...

Your husband's correct.

Goodbye.

Thank you very much for saying this again.

I I do remember you calling me a hungry caterpillar because you asked me to name all the foods that I like to eat in bed and then I proceeded to name them.

You said edamame.

Pomegranate seeds or something like that.

Oh, yeah.

So what was it?

It was edamame.

What else?

Pomegranate seeds, watermelon.

Yeah, like the hungry caterpillar.

Slice of cake.

By Eric Carl.

Classic bed foods.

Piece of cheese.

Piece of cheese.

Oh, yes.

Just one.

Just a cube, just one cube of cheese.

And I ruled firmly against you.

Yes.

Because despite the perfect meal that I had at the Park High at Chicago,

that was not my bed.

And as you know, I cleaned up after myself and tipped the housekeeper mightily, even though I did not leave a big mess.

But I do not tend to believe in eating in bed.

And yet here you are before me.

We don't normally take appeals.

Why should I hear this case again, Sarah?

Because now we're in sort of a special circumstance, which is we're in a a pandemic.

And

I would like to be traveling more and going to hotels, but we're not really at this moment.

And so I think because of the context of the pandemic that we're stuck at home,

that I would like this case appeal because I think there's flexibility.

to support what my husband wants to some degree.

We're in a pandemic.

We're all doing the best we can.

We have to be a little bit easier on ourselves.

There is no society or civilization anymore.

John Hodgman is wearing the stretch waist pants

and you are beaming in via teleconference from where are you?

We live in the Bronx, New York.

In the Bronx.

So you feel like you should be allowed to eat in bed now because it's a it's a hard time for yes, but I will say I would love to eat in bed even when, God willing, the pandemic is over too.

Well, and you also you start, you came out strong saying you didn't hear the whole story.

So what's the whole story?

Well, I think the whole story is that I have a really difficult job.

I'm a high school English teacher that

friend of the court.

And that job has been made more difficult by the pandemic.

My job's really meaningful and really important to me, but it leaves me feeling very depleted physically and emotionally.

And so I think

I have this greater urge and need and craving for rest and like not just rest like I'm sitting on the couch watching TV, but meaningful special rest that can be done in a couple of different ways.

But to me, I have a history in my family of like eating in bed, breakfast in bed, like thinking about when we used to travel, going to hotels and eating in bed.

Those are special memories that feel very restful to me that I would really like to enjoy from time to time.

It's a comfort to you.

That's exactly a family tradition.

It's a comfort to you.

Yes.

That David, your husband, husband, correct?

Yes.

Yeah.

That David is denying you and that I have denied you for almost two years now.

Yes.

All right.

And you have abided by my ruling, I presume.

98%.

That's probably higher than anyone else.

That's great.

Good job.

Thank you.

We talked about the kinds of foods you eat in bed.

Like, do you have a TV in there?

Are you reading?

Are you just sitting there in the dark eating cubes of cheese?

What's going on?

We don't have a TV in the the bedroom.

I would love to like eat a slice of cake that I made that's really special with like a book.

Maybe listen to some music.

Even honestly, I love a nice peace and quiet moment.

Some cake in the silence is like...

Sounds like an incredible Nancy Myers movie.

It's like very luxurious.

I don't get a lot of peace and quiet during my work hours.

Nancy Myers did a lot of romantic comedy making.

This is a romance between a person and their special slice of cake.

I support it.

I support it.

Speaking of cake, you did submit some evidence, including photos of this cake.

Exhibits A through G, of course, will be available on the show page at maximumfun.org, as well as on our Instagram page at judgejohnhodgman.

Exhibit A, this is just a picture of a dog.

A picture of a dog, pickles, at the edge of our bed.

What's going on?

What are you trying to paint?

Yeah, you're pandering through the bailiff.

I consider me pantered.

What a lovely dog Pickles is.

Do you ever carry pickles around like a

football?

Absolutely.

Pickles has anxiety, so that's one of our

ways to calm her down.

That special slice of cake.

Yes, exactly.

Also a lover of cheese.

And what does Pickles have there in her forepaws?

It looks like, is that a bowl of fondue that she's enjoying?

What's going on there?

It's a cow that looks exactly like her.

So it's very cute.

That's how she plays with it.

Yeah.

That's very very adorable.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then we have another picture of Pickles now lying down in the bed.

Oh, this is technically this is a picture of your nightstand showing plenty of room for a small plate or bowl.

Okay, exhibit B, but it's mostly pickles.

Yeah.

Has Pickles ever done this thing that my dog sissy did the other day, which is I looked at the bed and I couldn't figure out why it was so lumpy.

And I almost sat down on the edge of the bed, but then I thought, what if there's something in there?

And I thought it was just one of those pillows that you put between your knees to help your back.

Yeah.

But it turned out to be

my husband.

My dog, Sissy.

And then at the side of the bed, you know, where the sheets and the blankets are on top of the mattress, just her nose emerged.

Just her nose.

Pickles is a hot sleeper.

She doesn't like to be like under the covers.

You ever sleep with sissy between your knees, Jesse?

You ought to give that a try.

Wow, that sounds like a dream.

No.

But I'm going to skip ahead here to exhibit E, because here are these cakes.

And I'm going to tell you right now, Sarah, you've pandered to the court with pickles.

You've pandered to the court being a high school English teacher, which is, of course, dear to this court's heart.

What do you do, David, for a living?

I'm a high school social worker.

Oh, well, you chased the money, didn't you?

Sell out classic.

But also, Sarah, you made these cakes, which are, these are, these cakes are incredible.

People need to go look at these cakes.

You have an Instagram account for these cakes?

I do.

What's it called?

Incredit cakes?

Because that's what I mean.

It should have been called Incredit Cakes.

It's called Crumb Bum Cupcakes.

Crumb bum cupcakes is a great name.

Better than Incredit Cakes, trust me.

Love it.

Focus group says five stars.

My mom used to call people crumb bums a lot.

Sure.

It made me laugh.

So that's what I'm saying.

That's what my ruling is going to be.

Which one of you is the crumb bum?

And there may be some literal crumbs on some literal bums.

Part of the problem with your plan.

These are gloriously frosted, architecturally frosted, beautifully frosted.

One of those ones, this looks like a beautiful piece of Italian marble, but it's frosting?

It is.

How long have you been baking these cakes?

I've been baking cakes my whole life, but I started selling them about five years ago, but I stopped because of the pandemic.

What people need cake more than ever now.

I know.

I should start it up again.

Now you just make cakes for yourself.

Yeah, pretty much.

Okay.

And loved ones and family.

Self-care cakes.

You should call them that.

She's making a key lime pie today.

Wow.

Well, then I won't keep you.

But I rule in your favor.

Thank you.

Don't eat it.

It's his birthday.

It's his birthday.

That's why.

Is it literally your birthday?

It is literally my birthday today.

I admire your restraint in not mentioning that because Sarah's out here pandering away.

I feel like my case is strong.

Yeah, no, I have a feeling your case is strong too, but we'll see what happens.

Sarah, in this cake that looks like a piece of Italian marble with flecks of gold in it, it's incredible.

Happy birthday cake that you made.

What kind of cake is inside that smooth, smooth frosting?

I think it is a chocolate cake with salted caramel frosting and salted caramel on the inside.

Wow.

And this beautiful green cake with the maraschino cherries on top looks a little bit like the cake from Portal, but it is not a lie.

It is a real cake.

What do you got?

What kind of cake is going on inside that smooth, smooth frosting?

I think that's also a chocolate, salted caramel cake.

That's one of my most requested

ones.

Okay.

All right.

Are these all, are these all chocolate salted caramel cakes inside their smooth, smooth frosting?

I think one of them is has coconut and passion fruit curd on the inside.

Passion fruit curd.

Okay.

But they're all sponge cakes.

Yes.

Right.

But they're very moist.

Moist sponge cakes.

So inside, though the frosting is smooth and smooth, inside is crumbly crumbs.

Yes or no, Sarah?

Absolutely not.

It's a very moist, we don't do dry cakes in this house.

You're not saying that not a single crumb drops off of this cake when you're eating it?

Not a crumb?

A single crumb, a tiny, a minuscule amount of crumbs.

And what crumb mitigation do you have planned to catch all these crumbs?

There's a couple of options.

One is getting a covering like over the blanket, like a towel or like a special eating-in-bed blanket that goes over the bed.

So if errant crumbs fall.

You're making reference to your exhibit F?

I absolutely am.

Famous Nigello Lawson food towel.

Unabashed eat-in-bed person.

Eat-in-bed advocate, Nigella Lawson.

That's right.

You know, I once fed Nigella Lawson some grapes.

In bed?

No, on stage at a radio show I used to work for, but it was absolutely the highlight of my life.

Did she break out her food towel?

There was no food towel was necessary.

Right.

No, you're a very, you're a very adept and tidy grape feeder, Jesse.

I'd like to point out that my wife's Instagram handle is literally crumb bum, and so I feel like her crumb

strategy, I call into question because she's pro-crumb.

And, you know, I don't think it will.

Are you calling her cakes crummy?

Her cakes are delicious,

but they produce crumbs, just like all cakes do.

Sarah just said maybe one crumb, one crumb, she said, will fall.

How many crumbs is too many crumbs?

Well, that's a question for me to answer, but are you calling Sarah a liar?

Is it one crumb or many crumbs?

Are you saying her cakes are dry and crumbly?

I'm saying that delicious, moist cake produces crumbs.

which my wife makes.

All right, David, I trust you're going to get a fair hearing.

Don't worry about it.

But this Nigella Lawson, this is a photo that you submitted from her Instagram account where she's showing off how she's eating pizza in bed with a food towel.

And she refers to it as a food towel, which is not very appealing sounding,

but very functional.

And Sarah, finally, you also offered photos of two different

bed trays for eating food in bed, breakfast in bed.

I think is most associated with these kinds of trays that go over your lap in bed.

One, a beautiful vintage one, and one, like a very groovy, Logan's run, Lucite, futuristic model from when we're all eating food in zero gravity environments in the future.

The vintage one is very similar to the one I grew up using.

We used it a lot.

Like when you were sick, my mom would make matzo ball soup.

You had your ginger ale in bed.

It was very special.

And sometimes on special occasions on your birthday, on a vacation, you would get breakfast in bed or get to eat like dessert in bed yeah on a vacation

when you're at a motel or something no at home oh at home on vacation oh like a school vacation yes exactly right or when you're or when you were a child and you were sick yes and at any moment you could throw up or poop the bed anyway so why not why not roll the dice and throw some soup onto a tray

Could be, but I don't remember any such incidents to that.

I'm just playing David's advocate.

Okay, David, I promised you a fair hearing and here it comes.

Thank you.

Talk and I shall hear.

Oh, me now.

Yeah.

So

it's always been like, you know, no eating in bed.

It was like a general rule growing up for me.

And I think it's something for me that because of crumbs, because of stains

and general mess.

And also during the onset of the pandemic, I was in a school social worker.

I was working from home and I was literally working in our bedroom.

So

more than ever, I needed a level of

boundaries in my life because I was literally sitting up a desk in our bedroom and getting on Zoom calls.

So

even more, I kind of like locked down on not eating in the bed because I wanted like a separation of all my life.

You were trying to do your work on a Zoom call and Sarah was over there just like mowing through a chocolate

cake or something?

No, I think I just more needed like, oh, I like the idea of eating in bed and then I'm also working in bed.

I think I just needed more of like, it needed to be a restful place.

Too many worlds have been a lot of time.

Too many worlds colliding.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Now your bed is a workspace as well as a cake eating space.

Yes.

And a sleep space and a pickles relaxation area.

Yes.

Right.

And I do all the laundry.

I also make a lot of things.

And

let's not forget what else goes on in bed.

Reading comic books.

Exactly.

You change the sheets?

I change the sheets.

It's just my least favorite chore

because of I never feel like I'm taking the duvet cover off correctly.

And I always end up having to get inside.

And like,

I just feel like I'm doing it wrong.

And then you also have to usually have to fold a fitted sheet, which is just a shame-inducing experience for me because I end up just wrapping it up and throwing it in the closet.

I feel like inside the duvet cover would be a great place to eat a slice of cake.

It's true.

Just shimmy on up in there.

Shimmy on up into the into your duvet.

Sick.

With your slice of cake and get pickles by your side.

Better hope that Jesse Thorne doesn't come in and sit down on you by accident.

That's always a threat.

Always a threat.

Stick your nose out, so I know you're there.

Please, for safety's sake, stick your nose out if you're eating cake inside my duvet.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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I will also point out, so like, you know, my wife's amazing.

She's an amazing English teacher.

She, when she stopped selling her cake, she started using her cakes to raise money for different organizations and her community.

And so when we do leave, we go on like a vacation or

we'll eat in bed.

When we thought she had COVID and she was staying in bed,

she ate in bed.

So I'm not inflexible.

And our wedding day, because we stayed in the same room,

we ate in bed to start our wedding day.

Hold on.

You two stayed in the same room on your wedding day?

Yes.

Wow.

I guess everyone makes their own choices.

Different culture, I suppose.

This actually goes to one of my core questions here is that, is eating in bed gross to you because of actual crumbs or the perception of crumbs?

In other words, you know, there could be a situation in which Sarah truly is a crumb bum and gets crumbs all over the place and it's gross to you.

But Pickles loves it and just goes eating all those crumbs up through the bed.

Or there could be a situation where truly Sarah eats only the moistest cakes ever made, not a single crumb to fall.

And yet the idea of her eating in bed is just, it just weirds you out.

I think it's a bit of both.

I wouldn't say I find it gross.

I find it,

like, I was thinking about it.

I think, I find it irksome.

I find it like irritating, the idea of eating in bed.

I also think it's about

the bed is like a...

it's a there's a utilitarian nature to it and i feel like it's a place where i need to come and literally rest but also have peace at mind and so the idea of like eating in bed distorts that or hinders that in some sense, but I don't find it like repulsive.

That was my, yeah.

Let me here, I'm going to walk you through a hypothetical.

You go out and run some errands and you're looking forward to having a nice nap when you get back because it's a, it's a, you have a lot of errands to run.

It's a Saturday, Saturday afternoon.

You're going to read a comic book, maybe read an Adam Warlock comic book and try to figure out why Elliot Kalen likes these weird comics so much like I did last Saturday.

You're really looking forward to it.

While you're out on your errands,

you have a fear that Sarah may have eaten in bed.

When you come back,

you don't know for sure, but you think she might have.

Are you able to rest?

Yes or no?

Yes.

Okay.

You're not sure?

No, I'm a good rester.

I think

I would be able to rest.

I would maybe be annoyed.

I'm going to to kick up a notch.

Okay.

You're doing your errands.

I don't know what your errands are.

What's an errand you do on a Saturday?

You and Pickles are going for a great old walk.

You're going to come back and read Nana Morlock comic book in bed.

You know how you can feel that nap coming when it's getting close.

You're so excited for it.

And then Sarah texts you a picture of her eating a big old piece of cake in bed.

Say, I'm doing this right now.

And then you come back and there are no visible crumbs and Sarah is just laughing at you from

the her side of the bed are you able to rest or no knowing that she has just recently eaten in the bed

yes I'm still able to rest I know it doesn't help my case but I'm still able to restore than anything about right but the but the annoy the annoyance is not such that you're completely unable to rest yes if there's no crumbs and then when crumbs get in the you know when crumbs get in the sheets

they never get out yeah and then it's just an irritant they're the glitter of the food world last question You come home for your nap, and Sarah is sitting cross-legged on the bed with a whole cake in her lap.

And she says, go ahead and have a nap.

I'm just going to be over here eating.

Sounds amazing.

Maybe not a whole cake, a piece of cake.

Yeah.

A big glass of milk.

I feel like, you know, I have caught her eating

in bed or wrappers.

Whoa.

Sometimes,

like, I'll find like, you know, months later, wrappers in her, like, bedside drawer or something from.

Oh, in her drawer, wrappers from what?

Yeah, from like chocolates or magnet bars.

Yeah.

Almond joys.

I just love an almond joy.

I just discovered almond joys.

I know.

Everyone's talking about it these days.

Delicious.

York peppermint patties.

Oh, really?

York peppermint patties.

That's old school.

I like it.

Yes.

The best.

In bed, huh?

In bed.

Or

if it's the summer,

those like popsicles sticks that were like you just put in the freezer, the long like numchucks, like just in the plastic.

Yeah, I can't remember what those are called.

Like an otter pop?

An otter pop?

That might be a West Coast brand.

Icy?

Is that an icy?

No, an icy is a, is a, is a fluffy slurpee.

A fluffy slurpee, okay.

But I know exactly what you're talking about.

Those long, uh, like neon-colored

sugar waters that you put in the freezer and then it comes.

right like i only recently started eating a coconut paletta oh i was stuck on strawberry and tamarindo for the first 38 years of my life and now i'm on cocoa all the time god that would be great to eat in bed cocoa all the time is also a great t-shirt

and you're putting all the wrappers into your into this bedside table well i feel that this proves my case right is that i was able to eat in bed without him really knowing or seeing evidence other than the wrappers which is on me, and I would absolutely work on doing no evidence at all, throwing it away.

But I have an occasion,

you know, slipped up here or there.

I had a hard day, and I want to eat a York peppermint patty in bed.

And I would like also to eat in bed without feeling like I'm keeping secrets from my husband.

That doesn't feel good to me.

There also is another aspect of this: let the record show that David just whispered secrets.

So noted.

And he was not looking at me.

He was looking directly at Sarah.

Secrets.

It was very threatening.

We also had

last, like a year ago, we had bugs.

We found like a

bug.

A bug, which my wife then had me murder.

And

so that's another aspect of this.

What style of bug?

It was a bigger.

I can't say if it was a water bug but it was like

one of these guys that was like a large cockroach yeah a large cockroach which once hanging around in your bed yeah it was like yeah it was under in the bed walking under the bed walking on the floor cockroaches walk

we also live in New York City where everybody has cockroaches and we have an exterminator who comes once a month all right but David you're trying to establish some damages here Yes.

And I'm trying to figure out what the damages are to you because

you've already said that if you don't don't witness it happening you don't seem to mind her eating in bed if you're not there to see it it doesn't psychologically distract you to to annoyance no but this is also

for the most part she doesn't eat in bed right i know because of my ruling two years ago right of course you ought to be fighting for your life i could overturn this right now

I'm, you know, I think it's, you know, it doesn't bother me now at the level maybe it is because it's secret snacks, because it's only very limited but i worry that if once the floodgates open uh crumbs stains cockroaches and and who knows what you know i don't see any evidence here of crumb bums crummy sheets you've not submitted any evidence that sarah makes a mess right now you psychologically you seem amenable to eating in the bed you'll do it on special occasions on on in a hotel or whatever or when she's sick right

so it's not like it just gives you the the squirrelies just thinking about it like me thinking about robots underwater.

So, what you need to establish here are some damages to you.

Like, for example, you said that you do the laundry, right?

Yes.

Clean the sheets.

Do you do them exclusively?

Yes, pretty much.

Pretty much.

That's your job.

That's your choice.

Right.

And are you seeing chocolate stains?

Are you seeing melted ices or popsicle sticks in the corners?

Are you seeing crumbs?

Are you seeing evidence of food waste?

I see that on the couch where we do eat more regularly.

So I think my fear is that if we eat in bed more regularly, we will also start to see more stains, more crumbs.

Plus, my wife is constantly complaining that there are crumbs on her side of the bed.

Okay.

And that there are mysteriously no crumbs on my side of bed for some reason.

Sarah, where do you think these mystery crumbs are coming from?

Well, in my defense, I am not eating crummy things in bed.

I do think some of it comes from our dog,

that sometimes she has like toys that like little plastic bits fall off, or, you know, we forget to wipe her paws.

She likes to sleep on my side of the bed.

I don't think they're food crumbs.

I've specifically gotten out of bed at times and looked at them, and it's just little,

it's not food crumbs.

I'm not eating like super crummy foods in bed.

So you've observed my ruling, you say, about 98% of the time.

Yes.

What would the exceptions be?

When you're sick, when you're like, oh, John Hodgman was terrible on the podcast this week, I'm going to flout his authority and make mid-common patty.

You're never terrible.

No, I mean, I really,

as with respect to you.

John Hodgman mispronounced Mackinac Island the other day.

So I'm going to eat a whole pizza Nigella Lawson style.

And I'm not even gonna put a food towel down no i show him

i mean i really love my husband he does not have a lot of like

inflexible rules and so with respect to him i generally try to avoid it i think there are some times where i really come home and i'm really really exhausted and it's something that gives me this really this feeling of joy and relaxation that I just kind of let myself do it and i justify it by like okay i'm not nigella lost in eating a whole pizza in bed i'm not eating a piece of cake in bed i'm finding these little cheats almost that feel like i'm sort of getting to do what i want without the risk of like a major mess and it's also something that i can do quickly

uh it's a my way of keeping secrets so that you know david doesn't sound very relaxing honestly i know exactly is it's like i don't want to be eating in this way.

It's unpleasant and I don't want to keep secrets.

So it's kind of like not, it sort of is joyless, right?

I'm like breaking the rules, but it's not the same as what I ideally would like to be doing because it is

important to me, but my husband is more important to me.

But I would love to find some sort of.

complicated.

Because your husband is so important to you, you want to overrule his desire that you not eat eating official.

On my birthday, no less.

On your birthday.

Happy birthday.

Did you make him a key lime pie for his birthday?

I'm making him a key lime pie for his birthday.

So he gets to have the rewards, though, right?

He also gets to have the rewards of my cooking.

And I make almost all of our meals.

I make almost all of our lunches.

So he, like, just like he's saying, he does the laundry.

I also do almost all, I do all of the food shopping, all of the cooking, all of the baking, holiday cooking, Thanksgiving, et cetera, et cetera.

So you deserve to spread your crumbs wherever you like.

I'm cooking.

I think it's possible to do it with

a little bit, but I think it's possible to do it without making a huge mess.

If you think it's possible to do it without making a mess, why did you submit a picture of a tray for eating in bed that has no lip?

A lipless.

Oh, that's trusting.

A lipless tray.

That's essentially a crumb spreader.

Well, I guess I was, I picked that.

I don't particularly love that style, but I picked it because I was just trying to illustrate, like, sometimes David makes it seem like I'm like a huge weirdo for wanting to do this on occasion.

And I pick this because it's A, a modern company and B, a very modern style tray.

Like, this isn't some thing of like ancient times or something that only like a few people do.

People do on occasion.

You're saying it still happens.

Yes.

It still happens.

And it's mass produced.

Like many people are using these trays.

Like, I'm not that weird.

Maybe you should have married all those people.

Obviously, this future tray is designed for people who take their food in pill form.

Right.

Yes.

It's pure Logan's Run stuff.

Right.

Also, my wife is a huge weirdo, but

not in not in this way.

I'm not a huge weirdo.

So, David, what would it mean to you to have Sarah eat in bed like every once in a while?

Is that something you could tolerate?

What's every once in a while?

I don't know, Sarah.

What's every once in a while?

If I were to overrule my own ruling,

it would be for your emotional comfort.

So, in other words, how often is there a day when you come home and you just need to sack out and have a snack, a sack and a snack?

I mean, I would love to be able to do it once a week or even just like two or three times a month.

Let's just say once a week, David, does that ring an alarm for you?

Yes.

It does.

Yeah.

I feel like I could possibly wrap my Marant mind around special events like if it, you know, like a birthday or a holiday or something like if there was, you know,

something more less regular and more special, I might be able to calm my nerves to get through it.

Um, and maybe I could be out of the house when it happens.

I can see you're trying to be very accommodating.

Sarah, could you achieve this same level of snack nestiness to borrow the term of art from our friend Julie Klausner?

Could you achieve the same level of snack nestiness anywhere else in the home besides the bed?

I would say no.

I think there's something about the bedroom because it's a restful place.

We only, we live in a one-bedroom apartment.

It's also private.

Like, I don't really want my husband to be there while I'm eating in bed either.

Like, I like the idea of like closing the door.

No, the dog's not in there nobody's in there it's like my own quiet place because we've also been stuck in this apartment you know because of the pandemic and we're also in the process of moving in the next like six months or so and so we haven't really like updated our furniture i i personally feel our couches are like a little dumpy the dining room is like

not ideal.

So it's kind of like we're also people in transition.

And to me, the bedroom is like the most beautiful space, the most restful space, the space we probably spent spent the most time and money on making it nice.

That I don't, I wish there were a better option, but to me, that's it.

Where are you moving to?

We are staying in the Bronx.

We're just moving to a larger, better apartment.

Oh, congratulations.

Thank you so much.

We're very excited.

Is it a one or a two-bedroom apartment?

It's a three-bedroom apartment.

Yeah.

Which will have a guest bedroom, which maybe I'd be okay if she ate in that one, I suppose.

And that was outside of the house.

You were gone?

I was gone.

At least a mile away.

Hypothetically,

are you being serious with the you have to be outside of the house?

I think it would be helpful if this were to happen.

If she went into the guest bedroom and you knew she was eating a piece of cake in there, would you just be going around the house going, oh, I know what she's eating that cake?

Yeah.

I also,

I tend to just follow my wife around.

And

she often will say she needs personal space, so I have to leave the house.

yeah

interesting so sarah if i were to rule in your favor you'd want me to allow you to eat in bed at least once or twice a month is what i have written here yes and i'm also willing to accept limitations on the kinds of things that could be eaten in bed if that would provide

a piece of cake i do that's something i would not want a limitation on but like dinner i'm not going to eat dinner in bed like i'm willing to accept some boundaries of what could be eaten in bed if that would give comfort to my my husband.

Like a whole turkey breast, like a whole turkey dinner with gravy.

That you won't eat dinner?

Yes.

A whole dinner.

There's more boundaries than that, but I'm just saying I'm willing to accept there are certain foods that you absolutely would be like a hard no besides cake.

Then

I'm willing to accept it.

What are you offering up for sacrifice?

Like chips.

I would love to eat chips and like popcorn and things like that in bed.

I'm going to tell you something.

No matter how I rule, that's never going to happen to me.

See, where does it end?

We were talking about cake chips, the crummiest of all the crummiest of crumb bums.

This is what I'm talking about.

It's a slippery slope.

But I've shown that I'm dedicated to following the rules

to some level.

I'd never eat an apple in bed.

I'd only eat something reasonable, like a scone.

I would love to eat an apple in bed.

That sounds great.

Let's just focus on a piece of cake because those cakes are great.

Cake twice a month in bed alone.

David out of the house.

Is that a fair ruling for you, Sarah, or do you want to go further?

I mean,

is the cake like the worst thing I can eat?

Or you're saying cake is it?

Like you only get to eat cake?

No, I think cake seems to be the indulgence that you have put the most emphasis on in our conversation.

Is there something as high as cake on your list?

Unless you count the ultimate indulgence, the apple.

Right.

Well, honestly, pomegranate seeds, edamame.

Like really nice seasonal fruit.

Oh my gosh, in the summer, like cold watermelon in bed when it's like kind of hot out.

Like peaches, like they're cut up, not like a whole peach, so they don't make a huge mess.

Spitting the seeds right into David's pillowcase.

I eat seedless watermelon, so that wouldn't be nice.

Just a giant slice of watermelon, eating it like typewriter style.

Delicious in-season fruits, cake, pomegranate seeds, edamame's, the occasional patty of peppermint.

I would be very happy if I could eat those things without having to hide it or feeling like I was doing something wrong.

In bed.

At any time.

A couple of times a month.

Okay.

And David, you would have me rule in your favor: no eating in bed except for special occasions, birthday when she's sick or when you are

in a home that is not your own, a rental

home.

If it's not our bed, she's got carte blanche of eating in bed.

Anything.

Even chips.

Okay.

There's a lot to balance here.

I think I'm going to go into my

eating hammock.

I'm going to have a Philadelphia hoagie sandwich, and we'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Sarah, I have to ask you, you're one of the very few litigants who's been on our program who's already lost.

How did it feel when you brought a case to this court?

I'm sure thinking that the decision would be in your favor and were shot down like the red baron by Snoopy.

I was not surprised.

I was a little devastated,

but I wasn't surprised given previous rulings.

And I think I've heard the judge speak ill of eating in bed, saying that he personally finds it gross.

So wasn't surprised.

David, did you expect your wife to bring that up

as you filed into that thrilling entertainment experience that is the Judge John Hodgman live show?

I didn't expect it, but

it's one of the things I love about my wife

that she's kind of willing to throw her hat in the ring.

for things.

So I also realize I'm kind of, she's mentally jiu-jitsued me into this situation where if the judge rules against her, I'm going to have this kind of of effect where I'll kind of be like, who's the judge to tell my wife what to do?

In our bed, no less.

So I'm trying to...

That's my wife.

That's my wife, sir, you're talking to.

And I'll let her do what she wants.

So I'm trying to prepare myself for any eventuality.

How do you feel about your chances, David?

I think it's a toss-up, to be honest.

I felt pretty strong going in, but I feel like the judge often surprises.

So we'll see.

Sarah, Sarah, how are you feeling?

I feel okay.

I feel like there's a chance that I could just get a little wiggle room on this, which I would be very happy.

And the judge complimented my cake.

So I feel like even if he ruled against me, I'm very satisfied with that commentary.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back.

It goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case.

Let's talk about our show at San Francisco Sketchfest in San Francisco, California.

Everyone, please come to our show at Sketchfest.

But just one month away from this very day, January 22nd, 2022.

Wow, that's a lot of twos.

Jesse Thorne, Jennifer Marmer, and I will be taking the stage once again at San Francisco Sketchfest.

After two long years of absence, more or less from the road completely,

we shall stand before you in a safe way and dispense justice where there there has been no law since 2019.

San Francisco's Sydney Goldstein Theater, 7.30 p.m.

Tickets are available now at sfsketchfest.com.

sfsketchfest.com.

SF Sketchfest, of course, stands for San Francisco Sketchfest.

One of the best fests of any kind, not just sketch.

One of the greatest.

You go to that website, sfsketchfest.com, you're not only going to see tickets for the Judge John Hodgman Show, which I hope you enjoy, but the Jordan Jesse Go Show, my show with Adam Savage on Sunday, and all sort of incredible shows that you will want to be a part of if you can get there to the Bay Area.

And by the way, if you can get there to the Bay Area or you know someone who can,

and they have a dispute that they would like to be resolved on stage by me, Judge John Hodgman, won't you let me know?

Write me a note at hodgman at maximumfund.org or submit your case, as always at maximumfund.org/slash JJHO.

We are really looking for a whole bunch of cool Bay Area cases, people from the Bay Area or who can be there that night.

Maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

Say, hey, I'm from the Bay.

It's a little song that I wrote.

Hey, I'm from the Bay.

And let us know your case.

San Francisco, where the crime wave is imaginary, but the justice will be real.

Crime is actually down in San Francisco.

Crime is down in San Francisco.

They know we're coming, Jesse.

There's a perceived crime wave.

Can I make a quick plug here?

Because of all this cake talk, this isn't a personal, this isn't a plug for me.

Yeah.

I just happen to have one of my best buddies from high school is a baker, a professional baker.

She's actually also a former social worker.

I believe she's a CSW

clinical social worker degree.

She was a therapist, but she quit to bake full-time.

You know, I went to arts high school.

She was a painter in high school.

She's an incredibly gifted artist.

And her cakes are the most spectacular things I've ever seen in my entire life

in any category.

They're so spectacularly beautiful.

it's almost not real.

She's on Instagram at Jasmine Ray Cakes.

So jasmine R-A-E Cakes on Instagram and at jasmineraycakes.com.

And if you either have any reason to need a cake in the Bay Area or

you just want to see the most spectacular cakes you've ever seen in your entire life.

Yeah.

These can't be cakes.

Aren't they unreal?

They're spectacular.

TCBC, these can't be cakes.

That's unbelievable.

We'll also share them on the Judge John Hodgman Instagram.

We'll put together a little slideshow of them, but they are the most unbelievable thing.

As much as I am grateful to Jasmine for the good work that she did when she was a therapist, I think she is doing more good for the world by creating this incredible art.

They are spectacular.

And I can tell you, she made the cakes at my wedding with my wife, Teresa.

She's also a pal of Teresa's from high school.

And they taste amazing, too.

These aren't those kind of like, those aren't these kind of show cakes for television.

I want a show cake for our show.

I want to commission a cake for our live show.

I want to have my cake and eat it too.

Get Jasmine to make a cake.

There's a cake here that looks like a monolith.

Looks like an incredible science fiction crystal.

Looks like she could make a dark crystal cake.

I don't want to tell her what to do.

Some of these cakes look like cakes.

Some of these cakes look like flowers.

Some of these cakes look like dark crystals.

I'm really excited to be introduced to this cake Instagram.

I'm going to follow it.

Watch this.

Or you can't watch it, but I'm going to do it anyway.

Follow.

Done.

I saw your arm move.

Okay.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So it is true that I feel...

that eating in bed is gross.

I've gone through periods of times when I did it, and then I've gone through periods of times when I've not done it, and not waking up in crumbs is better for me.

But I'm not the kind of jurist who lets their personal opinions influence their rulings such that I would overturn an established human right

because of something that I personally believe.

I'm not that kind of jurist, unlike some that I can name.

I have already ruled in David's favor.

Don't eat in the bed, Sarah.

But I will acknowledge that that was in the heat of a live show where we were yelling at each other across a crowd, just breathing our droplets on each other in January of 2020, like the world was never going to end.

Now, it's a different circumstance.

A, you were right

that we should consider the fullness of the story.

And B, we have now endured two years of being cooped up with ourselves and each other in a way that was different.

A time of extreme emotional stress,

no matter how much or how little these world events have touched you personally.

It's a stressful time.

Who wouldn't occasionally want to take to their bed and eat a whole pizza?

I feel you, Nigela Lawson.

I don't know what the date was on that photo, but I got you.

And indeed, you know, a lot, I mentioned before, I'm wearing stretch-waisted pants.

in, I am privileging comfort and de-stress more

because I think that that's what we need to do in order to get through this and be good for each other.

And in New York City in particular,

you know, if you're living in the Bronx in a one-bedroom apartment with a dog named Pickles, I don't have to look at any photos.

I can see your beautiful little room behind you there on the teleconference.

I saw in your evidence photos that you have a queen-size bed, which is a, in my opinion, an inappropriately small bed for two human beings, but that's you, and the two human beings and a dog.

But, you know, you're in New York, you're, you're pressed for space.

And what this does is it puts increased, even in the outside of a pandemic environment, it puts this increased pressure on the bedroom to become the haven.

Because your whole house and an apartment in New York is going to be overflowing with junk.

And this is true of every, lots of major cities and so forth.

Everyone's space is a premium in a lot of living situations.

I don't mean to be purely New York chauvinistic here, but we're talking about the Bronx, everybody.

In the Bronx, you got junk in your house.

And you want your bedroom to be a place of peace.

The problem is that people's definition of peace can be very different.

And this most intimate space that you share, the bedroom,

in a relationship, in this case, a married relationship, is also a place where you spend huge amounts of times as alone as you can be, asleep in your dreams.

It has to be, it is a shared space, but it is also a solo space.

And if your definition of peace and quiet is different, that is obviously problematic.

For David, peace and quiet means

doing your work from your bed, not wondering if there are crumbs that you have to clean when you have to do the sheets and fold them and everything else.

And for you, Sarah, that comfort and that peace and that respite comes from getting into bed and eating a piece of cake or something.

They are at loggerheads and neither one outweighs the other.

Now, I'm going to say that it is not fair, Sarah, for you to eat in bed if David is doing the sheets.

That's just basic unfairness.

I will also say, in your defense,

that what you have going on now is no good, where you are sneaking a peppermint patty and hiding the wrapper in your bedside table.

Because to me, there is an emotional component to eating in bed.

Like,

food is a comfort.

It is naturally, but you can get some bad habits out of conflating food and comfort, you know?

The emotional comfort that you seek in life shouldn't always be, I tell myself frequently, attached to the idea of a breakfast sandwich.

But it's not always wrong either.

You know, there is such a thing as comfort food.

But conflating food with comfort and then conflating it with shame shame because you're hiding the comfort under the pillow, as it were, that's no way an adult human being should have to live.

So where does that leave us?

First of all, I want to say the crumbs are not coming from Sarah, David.

They're coming from pickles.

Those crumbs on Sarah's side of the bed, those are dog crumbs.

You know, I don't know that you have much of a leg to stand on asking for total cleanliness of your bed when you allow an animal that wears no shoes in your city all the time to get up on it at the same time.

That's dander, crumbs, dust, hair, dog stuff.

It's going to be on your bed.

It's already compromised.

A.

You both are entitled to the same experience of the haven that a bedroom has.

And what is so hard during a pandemic and is difficult to navigate even outside of a pandemic is everyone needs the bedroom to themselves sometimes.

There are things that happen in the bedroom alone that are as important as things that happen in the bedroom together, sometimes.

And David, you're following Sarah around all the time like pickles the dog.

She's asking for personal space, and this is how she defines it.

So in a completely consistent ruling, I am once again going to rule in David's favor because David is a good husband who said no eating in bed except for special occasions, birthday, when she is sick, or they are in a hotel.

But I am going to extend the definition of sick to needing emotional comfort as well as physical rest.

From time to time, if you need to eat a piece of cake in your bed, that's fine.

Tell David, I got to have a cake in bedtime.

David, you go for a walk, indulge in whatever you need to indulge in, and when you come back,

offer to wash the sheets.

Or at least give David a chance to inspect it and decide whether or not the sheets should be washed.

In which case you can offer it.

That's my ruling.

I rule in David's favor, but going forward, your situation is going to change.

You're moving into a three-bedroom apartment, which will have a guest bedroom.

You know, Virginia Wolf wrote, a room of one's own.

You, Sarah, deserve one.

I don't know if you're ever going to have guests.

That's fine.

That bedroom is going to be your eaten bedroom.

You are going to have to wash the sheets in there.

That whole thing is going to be your responsibility in there.

Your marital bedroom shall be a no-foods allowed bedroom.

This is the ultimate compromise.

David gets, you get that shared space, and then you get that private space that you need and deserve as a human being.

And when you decorate that room to the best of your, I mean, this is honestly the closest that a couple has come to my recommendation for a married couple to have a king-size bed in two separate villas connected by a reflecting pool, and you visit each other from time to time.

You get to have your sanctum.

And when you design that and choose the furnishings and stuff for that sanctum, for that guest bedroom, Sarah, and you do it within your means, do it with the idea that that's going to be a place where you can go and be alone and just read a book, rip a whole chicken apart in your lap, whatever you want to do.

And you keep that stuff in your bedroom and keep it out of David's bedroom.

But until you move, since it's just a queen bed with you and David and pickles, you may eat a piece of cake at grave need, but I think

you're already doing it anyway, against my ruling.

So it's no good to hide it.

You know what I'm saying?

Come out into the open and enjoy your cake.

Don't hide that cake under your pillow.

David,

a couple more months before this is resolved forever.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules out as all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Well, David, to some extent, you've emerged victorious here.

How do you feel?

I feel okay.

I do like that.

I can say that

I've won twice

on paper to my wife.

So that has something to it.

Sarah, how about you?

I feel great.

I think it was a very fair ruling, and I want to take responsibility for washing the sheets and making sure that David's happy.

It feels like we can both get what we want to some extent, which is wonderful.

Are you already planning out that sanctum sanctorum?

Oh, I'm already looking at

trays on Etsy in my head.

I'm ready to go.

I'm very excited.

Well, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you so much.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

In just a second, we'll have swift justice.

First, our thanks to Twitter users at since underscore you underscore asked and at El Dorado Omega for naming this week's episode Eating and a Beding.

El Dorado Omega.

That's pretty, that's pretty metal.

That's pretty solid.

I like Since You Asked Too.

That sounds like a British panel show.

Yeah.

Follow us on Twitter if you want to name a future episode.

We're at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

While you're there, you can also hashtag your Judge John Hodgman related tweets, hashtag JJ H O.

And you can also talk about the show on Reddit at maximumfun.reddit.com.

Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account, instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to follow us there.

Our producer, Jennifer Marmer, our editor, Valerie Moffat, and now we have Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Jacob says, when I'm driving, my wife will honk the car horn if she feels slighted.

I think I'm old enough to honk the horn myself.

Slighted by whom?

Other people in traffic?

Or like she remembers someone being mean to her in middle school or something?

Other car passengers.

No, Jacob's wife, no,

you cannot touch the steering wheel when someone else is driving, ever, ever, ever, ever,

unless they have a stroke or pass out.

And you can help guide the car to safety.

But no, you can't.

Don't honk the corn.

You can get a little Ooga horn of your own, though, if you want.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No cases too small.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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