Judge, Jury, And Extra-Cushions-For-Her

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, judge, jury, and extra cushions for her.

Miles files suit against his wife, Isabel.

Miles says that Isabel's graduate school work takes up too much space in the living room.

Isabel says her setup is the most comfortable way to do her work.

The living room is her space too.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Judge, jury, and extra cushions for her.

All right, here comes the obscure cultural reference.

Pay attention, Miles and Isabel.

It's like you get to be a certain age and you stop being an actor who has a podcast, and instead you become a podcaster with a hobby.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Miles and Isabel, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that the best home space was not invented by him, but rather by our friend Julia Klausner?

It's called a snack nest, and you make it in your bed.

I do.

Absolutely.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

All right, Miles and Isabelle, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you guess the piece of recent popular culture

that I paraphrased?

I changed.

It was not about podcasting.

I'll put it that way.

I'll read it.

It's short, so I'll give it to you again.

It's like you get to be a certain age and you stop being an actor who has a podcast, and instead you become a podcaster with a hobby.

Can you name what that comes from, Isabelle?

Isabelle?

I cannot.

I can give the answer I had prepared.

Please do.

Thank you very much.

Personal Belongings, the play by Diana Raznovich.

That's a great guess.

I've never heard of that playwright or that play.

I'm going to say that you're correct, though, because that's so specific.

I really want to honor that.

I want to learn more about that play.

But we'll first go to Miles for a second and see if Miles has a guess.

I definitely don't have it.

I was going to go with Alice's Restaurant Masacri by Arlo Guthrie.

Sure.

And I notice you have what looks like a banjo on your wall behind you.

So I can see you're a real Guthred,

Guthriehead, or whatever.

He's ready to Guthrie at any time.

Yeah, right, exactly.

All guesses are wrong, and I can see you both because you're very kindly joining us via teleconference from Bloomington, Illinois.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Yes.

All right.

You tell me about your thing first, Isabel.

What was that play?

And then I'll tell you about my thing.

It's a playwright from Argentina who,

and the play is in response to her being exiled

to the regime.

And it's a one-woman play.

I'm in a Latin American theater class, but it's personal belonging.

So it's

about all the baggage you take.

when you're exiled from your home, but like it's represented on stage by all these boxes.

Say the name of the playwright again.

Diana Raznovich.

Diana Raznov, you are talking my language.

Because you know, I studied

the Latin American literature, specifically the works of Jorge Luis Borges, a famous Argentine who self-exiled to Switzerland because he could, but he also fell out of favor with, and is, which regime was she out of favor with?

There were a lot of them.

The Dirty Wars.

The Dirty Wars, right?

So like the 70s, 80s.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

He fell out of favor with the

Peron regime and got demoted from being the head of the National Library of Argentina to

the National Poultry Inspector.

True story.

John, my sister-in-law is Argentine-American.

Yeah.

And her grandpa is a professional tango dancer and a former con man.

Wow.

He's like 90, man.

He is really cool.

I know we're going to go to Mexico City, Jesse, but after Mexico City, can we just head straight down to BA to Buenos Aires?

Done.

Done and done.

Isabel, you can come with Miles.

We'll see about you.

But you're studying, I know that you're studying theater, and Miles,

you are not working currently, but when you are working, you are working in the theater as a theatrical carpenter.

Is that correct?

Yeah, I am.

Does that just mean hammering with flare?

Yeah, doing backflips, cartwheels, and all that.

No, I'm a master carpenter at a theater back in Massachusetts.

Oh, which theater?

North Shore Music Theater.

The North Shore Music Theater in Massachusetts.

In Beverly, Massachusetts.

In Beverly.

Wow.

So I chose this quote for you because it comes from a movie which is based on a musical play performance

that just came out called Tick Tick Boom,

which is written by Jonathan Larson, the creator of Rent.

It is what is called an autobiographical rock monologue.

And the movie was just directed by Lynn Manuel Miranda.

And I went to go see the movie, and it was really, really good.

And there's an like, it really made me think, you know, because the actual quote is, it's like you get to a certain age and you stop being a writer who waits tables and you become a waiter with a hobby.

There's a lot of anxiety that comes with choosing a life of the arts, in particular, theater,

which is not the best paid of the performing arts.

Yeah.

No, I mean,

I trust you're in a union, Miles.

I hope.

Well, that's a whole story.

We organized over the pandemic.

Oh, good for you.

Well, and

hardest still to be someone studying the theater or working in the theater during a pandemic when you can't gather in close proximity in rooms, which is kind of the point of live theater.

And this movie is really about like, if you choose this path, don't let anyone talk you out of it, because there's something very, very magical about it.

And I applaud you

for staying in your field even when you can't be in Beverly, Massachusetts, but instead exiled.

much like a certain Argentinian playwright that I learned all about just a moment ago, to Bloomington, Illinois.

Why are you there, Isabel?

It was the grad school I chose.

I really wanted to go to a grad school that had a focus on teaching.

Okay, so you're going to become a by my third year.

I get to teach a lighting class, which I'm super pumped about.

You get to teach a lighting class.

What I love about the theater and all

and filmed entertainment too is that it's not just artsy fartsy.

It's also like the kick-ass trades.

You're building stuff, you're lighting stuff, you're connecting

wires into things.

It's dangerous, it's fun, it's terrific.

I mean, building a set, like what kind of set would you build there at the North Shore Theater in Beverly?

Most interesting, at least, is we built a 11-foot-tall, 26-foot-across bridge

that sat itself on a turntable that

so the whole thing could spin.

You could access it from off stage.

There's a bridge that we built separate over the audience that actors could walk on.

People could walk up.

The thing could

all spin around.

People were on it dancing and singing while it was spinning.

Was it Hamilton?

Was it Hamilton?

Because that's got a lazy Susan in it.

It was Jersey Boys.

Kind of the same.

Two sides of the same coin.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so, Miles,

you are married, correct?

The two of you are married to one another, and you're just hanging out until things open up again.

And then when you're done, your program, will you move back to Boston or you seek new fortunes elsewhere, or you just not know yet?

We're going back to Boston.

It says here, you met working on one of the worst shows you've ever done.

Yes.

What is that story, Isabel?

It was a student production in college.

And our main stage theater had shut down.

So the theater, the university was using our only theater space.

So the student group got exiled to the basement of our student services building, which used to be a bowling alley and was now a conference room.

And we were trying to do the show in there.

And it was just

everything about it was bad.

I think like half my conversations with the director like ended with me in tears.

We were, I like, I don't think I ate anything other than cold pizza and coffee for the entire week.

Well, wait a minute.

Did the show happen to be the famous musical conference in a bowling alley?

Because then that could have fit.

It could have fit.

What was the name of this institution again?

This was Salem State University.

Salem State University.

Shame on you.

I'm going to burn you at the stake, Salem State.

That's what you do traditionally with theaters, not only that treat their student productions poorly, but also you had a bowling alley and you turned it into a conference room.

Get out of town, Salem State.

Give me a break.

That's the worst thing you could do to a bowling alley.

All right.

Well, you both seem like lovely people who don't really have any genuine fights and you're just here to be on a podcast.

But supposedly, we have some conflict here.

Miles, you seek justice.

What is the justice you seek?

Izzy will use the living room area as a setup for her laptop and various paperwork for classes and shows,

which consume kind of the whole sofa and small little table area that we have in front of said sofa.

Which

the bigger problem or thing that i i i have issue with is we have a desk for her uh and it just generally lays empty not used

and then all the sitting area is taken up and it is

for me at least a a a a just a general like point of like oh the this whole room is cluttered and and then that that whole room goes into the kitchen which is the kitchen and dining area your living space is uh is uh compromised

It's what you have, a dining, living, kitchen kind of combo, which everyone, an open plan concept, which every property brother in the world says is great.

But when you live in it long enough, you realize, no, I'd prefer to have a dining room.

Thanks.

Sorry, Drew and Jonathan, I love you, but no, people need doors to close.

Yes.

I see you sitting at a desk right now, Miles.

That is your desk, or is this the desk you're talking about?

We have a two-bedroom house or apartment, and

this second room I am in right now is my office space.

Right.

So you took over the second bedroom and turned it into your

podcasting.

Obviously, you've got a nice mic there and also it's a banjo storage room.

This is your Miles den, correct?

Den of Miles?

Yeah,

generally speaking.

And Isabel, also known as Izzy affectionately by you, which is a fantastic nickname,

has a desk sort of set up in the corner of the living kitchen dining area and occasionally sits on the sofa and you get mad about it while you sit in your own room by yourself.

You're thinking about it.

Yeah.

Don't worry, I'm not prejudging you.

I know there's evidence to come that I have reviewed.

Yes,

it is a fair point that I have

a whole office set up.

And

the desk that Izzy has is set up in the sort of combo living kitchen, dining area.

Right next to the cat tree.

You know what?

Let's look at the evidence because it's here in front of me.

And you're already talking about the most explosive bit of evidence in this entire case,

which is the incredibly elaborate kitty condo that you have next to your desk.

Look, I'm a fan of these things.

You obviously, I hope you have a cat because this would be weird if you didn't.

Yes, we have two cats.

You have two cats.

And what are their names?

Liliana and Soren.

Liliana and Soren.

And I presume Soren is named after the character I played in Minecraft Story Mode.

We'll just take that as sure.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Good idea.

Good idea.

John, you know, my kids like to watch that show?

Minecraft Story Mode?

Yeah.

And then I'll hear your voice and I run in and I say, that's Hodgman.

That's John Hodgman.

And then my son, Oscar, rolls his eyes at me and says, Daddy, why do you always say when you have friends in shows?

I'll make, well, I don't, it's,

look, it's not my fault you live in Los Angeles.

Yeah.

To the rest of us, that's amazing.

Trust me.

Our kids have a name-dropping daddy, too.

That's the name of our swing band, Jesse, name-dropping daddies.

So here's the all the, well, you know, I'm going to give you the opportunity to say that you do not wish for these photos to be on the show page at maximumfund.org or on an Instagram account at judgejohnhodgman on Instagram because this is a peek into your private life that you have shared with me.

Are you comfortable with sharing this with the public?

I am.

Yes.

Great.

So everyone should go check out this incredible kitty condo because this is not just a kitty condo.

This is like a metropolis.

This is like a Fritz Langs, a carpeted Fritz Lang's metropolis for your cats to climb up on and around.

I've never seen anything quite like it.

It's taller than I am.

Yeah, it's approximately a 12-footer.

Maybe an 18-footer.

Wow.

Wow.

This is a pretty good desk.

Who's this photo of this person on this desk here, Isabelle?

Uh-oh.

It's Alice Ripley.

She did a show at North Shore Music Theater, and part of the set design was there were, I think, over 100, right, Miles?

100%.

It was was 112.

It was for Sunset Boulevard.

She played

Norma Desmond.

Norma Desmond.

Right.

Okay, Alice Ripley is an actor.

So you stole this.

This is a piece of set design.

Yes.

That's what Prop Semester gifted.

Or stole and then gifted.

There were so many that weren't used.

No one's getting in trouble here.

No one except for Salem State University for messing up their bowling alley.

Was this just a little funny token or do you have a particular fondness for Alice Ripley?

Because she's probably a listener to the podcast.

I do have a fondness for her.

She was really lovely to work with.

Great.

Good answer.

And

then the desk has just like a light and a little,

you know, there are a couple of buckets underneath, I suppose, one for each cat.

I don't know what's going on.

Why don't you like to work at this desk?

Why do you prefer to work at the

nice ergonomic chair and some, you know, it's like a desk.

How come you don't like to work at it?

Some of it's the amount of time just like, especially when I was over Zoom, it's like eight hours of Zoom in a row.

Right.

And being able to like sit on a couch and lounge is nice.

With the couch, I can put things like next to me on the couch and on the table.

Right.

With the desk, so much of it's taken up with the laptop and the monitor required to zoom

that there's now not that much.

And like when Miles leaves his office and graces me with his presence, it is nice to sit together with him in the armchair and me on the couch or both on the couch and spend time together.

Right.

Well, both on the couch seems a little bit problematic, right?

Because I'm looking now at some photos of your couch-based workstation, and I'm going to say that you spread out a little bit.

I'm not blaming, but I'm going to say like there are two photos here.

One is you and one of your cats

having some productive time on the couch with your laptop open, and an incredible copy of Bubble by Jordan Morris and Sarah Morgan just happens to be laying out on

the coffee table, very nicely done, well-pandered to this courtroom.

Duly noted.

And then there's another photo here where the spread has spread even more.

Now you've got like a

what do you call this, Jesse?

This kind of pillow that has the little arms coming off of it.

Oh, yeah.

Like a little chair pillow kind of thing.

Like a little chair pillow.

Jennifer Marmor, does that pillow have a name?

That's not a husband, right?

A husband is

a long pillow, really.

Yeah, I hate calling it that, but I think that's what I refer to as a husband or boyfriend pillow.

Partner pillow.

Partner pillow.

Yeah, that's right.

It's a husband pillow,

which is weird because you,

you know, I've been in a marriage for a long time and I've met a lot of spouses.

Very, very rarely would you lean against your husband in this way.

Yeah.

Unless the husband was like, if it was a high seating area and the husband was standing behind it.

Because if you're both on the same level, the husband could potentially have areas of their body that would be compromised by this sitting position.

Yeah, it's like this would be, you would be leaning, if you were sitting in a field.

sitting between your husband's legs and leaning back and putting your elbows on his legs or her legs or their legs.

It kind of reminds me of like on sitcoms when they would show a couple at a Lamaz class.

That's always how the husband was sitting.

Yeah, that's right.

This is your husband.

This is your husband if they're helping, coaching you through natural childbirth or you've fallen down and they're helping you get up.

Yeah.

I'm going to be honest.

Oh, you're doing the breathing.

John, did you know that they don't teach you Lamas anymore?

That was like the number one thing I was excited about, about having a child,

was Lamaz class because I'd seen it on so many sitcoms.

And I went in there.

They don't teach you Lamaz anymore.

They don't teach you

patterned breathing.

They teach you other stuff.

We must have gotten in just under the wire because we learned Lamaz

from the most incredibly vibrant and wildly physically flexible 95-year-old woman.

on the Upper West Side who also

coached, I believe, both of Calvin Trillin's daughters, which is very exciting to hear.

Now we're talking.

Wow.

Not to violate their privacy.

I apologize, Calvin Trillin's daughters.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund.org, and they are all your favorites.

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Just go to maximumfund.org/slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

So, Isabelle, Izzy, if I may,

this is no longer a workspace.

This is more of what we call a snack nest or a person nest.

in the second photo.

What's going on in this photo?

This is over Thanksgiving break, which I'm on right now.

And I will admit that I have not done any work since leaving school on Friday.

And we've been sitting and each playing on our own switch while watching videos on the TV.

So

that is how this has evolved.

And I think I got up.

So Lily the Cat has claimed the entire couch for herself.

Well, Lily the Cat is in both of these photos of the the couch area and I'm wondering, Miles, whether you have a partner problem or a cat problem when it comes to claiming this furniture.

Seems like Lily's in charge here.

That would be an accurate way to describe it.

There is an office chair just off camera here that is

specifically the cat's office chair.

Wait a minute.

You mean the office chair that is supposed to be associated with Isabel's desk?

No, no, no.

There's a third one.

We have three.

You have three office chairs.

And one is just for the cat.

Okay, well,

all right.

Before we get to your office chair collection,

you submitted this evidence.

Is that right, Miles?

Yes.

All right.

So in the second photo, where the couch is a nice,

it's a short, sort of chez-long couch combo.

It is definitely wholly colonized at this point by throw pillows, a husband that is not you, but a pillow, some gaming equipment, and a cat.

What are you trying to show this court?

Just the amount of clutter that aggregates there is generally a constant unless I really make a push for like, hey,

this needs to be cleaned off.

But like,

what's not shown in this picture is that table thing is actually a chest with stuff in it.

Well,

out of sight, out of mind, right?

Are you such a tidy person that you're nervous about the clutter inside that chest as well?

No, no.

Okay, then why did you bring it up?

I mean, the stuff that's in that chest is like games,

like board games, and some other, you know.

stuff for having people over when that is a viable option and getting at that stuff when there is all the all the clutter on top is a bit much and it is the first thing that you see sort of when you walk in the house.

Right.

A mountain of clutter.

And if I go to this wide shot here, I can see basically your whole,

oh, that incredible kitty condo is there.

And then over on the other side of the room, this is the full room now.

I'm also seeing a cat carrier.

I'm seeing a cat scratching post.

I'm seeing some cat toys, end of an umbrella,

stuff on the floor.

I'm only counting one.

Where's the third office chair in this?

A third office chair is in my office.

You also have a bicycle that is making sure there's no way you're going to get through that door in case of a fire.

Good.

That is no longer there.

Oh, okay, good, because I fear for your safety.

And

what's that round thing underneath the bicycle?

It's another cat toy.

Another cat toy.

It's a cat scratcher with like a hole in it so they can go in and then pop out at each other.

Right.

And you have this armchair,

which is your chair, I would guess, Miles.

That's where you're allowed to sit.

This plaid.

Generally speaking, yes.

Unless I specifically ask, hey, can I sit on the sofa?

Can you make a spot for me?

Well, there's no spot on this sofa right now because there's stuff all over it for sure.

Correct.

What fun you theater kids are having out there in Bloomington, Illinois.

This is incredible.

Like, just, well, you know what,

you're a couple of,

you're living the life as a couple of ninks.

You know what what I'm talking about?

No income, no kids.

But two cats and a lot of games and a good time together.

But a little bit of a mess.

A little bit of a mess.

Now, I'm a tidy person.

Miles, are you a tidy person?

Not until relatively recently.

What changed in your life that turned you into this

into Mr.

Tidy Police?

honestly i have no idea uh it's probably some

if i had to if i had to put a finger on it it's probably the voice in the back of my head of my mom telling me that the house needs to be cleaned constantly as if nobody lives in it um right but it being clean is is one is one less at least for me mental like

weight if the if the place is clean it frees up some some mental thought in my mind of like all right that's something that doesn't need to be taken care of or miles I want to set you at ease because

the way you're talking sounds like you feel like you're talking about a very exotic feeling that someone should be apologetic for.

But the fact of the matter is that, you know, people have different levels of tidiness and clutter tolerance.

But when you're riding out a pandemic in an open plan, kiddie condoed apartment in Bloomington, Illinois, and you're on top of your beloved all the time, and they on top of you, and not just the fun way,

these things,

it adds a level of extra mental load to

not be able to get at the Magic the Gathering cards because there's three strata of other stuff on top of the game chest or whatever.

So that's okay.

It's okay that you feel that way.

The reason, or one of the reasons I submitted the case when I did,

is

this is something that I, you know, the clutter has been kind of a constant through the first bit of grad school Izzy has done.

And I figured, you know what,

it's the pandemic.

It's, you know, we'll, you know, we'll give everybody a pass on this and sort of

be more mindful of it all.

Izzy went away for the summer to work a job and the house was basically just me and the cats.

I was like, all right, maybe when she comes back and she's more back at school and not doing less work from home, you know, she has an office and, you know, a graduate student office and all that.

Maybe the clutter will be more manageable and I can deal with it, you know,

reasonably.

But the clutter has not really

stopped.

She went away to work a show and you had the place to yourself for a while.

I see what happened.

And you actually sent in some evidence of what the house looked like when you were there by yourself and it involves these weird three bridges and a giant revolving platform

you had to tear all that down yeah yeah pyrotechnics and everything yeah you didn't you didn't send in a photo of of the house when you had it to yourself but when you had it to yourself how did how did you like it how did you have it how did you keep it tidy pretty much or as tidy as somebody living in a place will keep things so you know maybe miles reorganized all the furniture when i was gone Here we go.

Why am I talking to Miles?

Izzy, speak the truth.

What happened when you were away?

What did you come back to?

You couldn't believe the non-mess you came back to?

It feels normal to me.

Like, I think that's part of my problem is this amount of mess feels normal.

And like the house felt lived in when I came back.

It wasn't pristine.

All the furniture moved because Miles had his brother over and they rearranged everything.

Is it, did they move it into the configuration I see now?

Yes.

Oh, okay.

So what was it?

Where, where were things before?

And did you like it better before?

I think I liked it the same before, before the couch was perpendicular to the wall with the door in it along the line where the door was.

So it felt more like, oh, this is the living room and this is the kitchen.

Right.

Where now it's more open concept.

So it's really more, how much are we deluding ourselves into believing we have two rooms?

The only transition between, you know, living room and kitchen is

the edge of this wall-to-wall brown carpeting.

Yeah, you know, that's the other thing that reminds me of the Property Brothers.

You know how they always open the plan and add brown wall-to-wall shag?

Yeah,

I'm going to just tell you both.

I love you, but I'm not a fan of this carpeting.

But I guess you didn't choose it.

Probably wasn't your choice.

Probably wasn't your choice.

Just not.

I mean, it basically makes your whole living room into a kitty condo.

It's the same kind of of carpeting that they have on a kitty condo.

I'm looking at the cat now, and yes,

she is blending in.

The camouflage is working.

So how do you feel when Miles is attempting to talk candidly and openly about his emotions of feeling?

Just...

How would you describe it, Miles?

How does it make you feel?

Let me talk to Miles again for a second.

When you go over to that couch and you see all that stuff on it, what does it feel like to you?

It feels as if I cannot use the space at all.

Like, like.

You feel shut out?

You feel shut out of couch time?

Shut out is, yeah, I guess is a good way to describe it.

It's just,

like, it feels as if I cannot move everything because Izzy will nest

with all her work.

And it's like, well, you have, you know, important graduate school work to do.

I don't want to put something where you don't find it or what, you know, what have you.

Do you feel emotionally shut out of that space by Izzy?

I don't think so yeah you do okay got it you do put it down as I do yeah so noted you got to get in touch with your emotions here miles let the record show that he is forcing himself to not I'm sorry

yes I can tell it makes you uncomfortable

Izzy when you witness me badgering Miles to be in touch with his emotions

And he says that he feels shut out of the couch literally or more emotionally.

I mean, what are you feeling about all of this?

I feel guilty and bad, like he has a point, but then I also feel defensive.

Like, I just want to come home after being at school for literally like 15 hours in a row some days and just sit down on the couch.

Right.

Do you ever use that desk?

I use it sometimes, usually when Miles encourages me.

It's not your go-to.

No.

Right, okay.

Miles,

you're a theatrical carpenter.

Why do you have your own office?

Well,

during the pandemic,

not having work and moving,

you know, midway through the country, it's

I use my office and computer setup for hanging out with friends online as well as

organizing.

I was using this as a space to do meetings for organizing, you know, the union organizing.

The union stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, that's valuable work for sure.

But I mean, Izzy's in grad school.

Why don't you use the desk that's out in the middle of the kitchen to do your organizing and give her the privacy of that room to do her grad school work?

That is a valid argument.

I don't know that that would prevent the sofa from being co-opted as a place to nest.

Izzy kind of always has been like this with nesting and just setting up a place like this.

Is your camera attached to your computer?

Mine?

No.

Can you give me a little view of what's going on in that room?

So

I got

there's window.

Nice.

A second kitty condo.

Yeah.

Well, there's another kitty condo in there.

There's another kitty condo?

Yeah.

All right.

You people have more problems than I realized.

This one's a 14-footer.

And you got Lily's office chair behind you.

Izzy, where would you want to work?

Do you want to take over Miles' banjo cave?

No, I just want to work on the couch when it's convenient for me.

That's what I want.

I have an office at school, but it's grad school, so it's probably about the size of this desk and has the worst lighting you've ever seen in it.

Oh, you're at the desk now.

You're at the desk that Miles wants to exile you to.

Yes.

Right.

So, okay, now I'm seeing another...

Boy, this place isn't very large, you guys.

That's your kitchen right behind you.

Yes.

Right.

Okay.

So, you know, Miles, obviously, you would like Izzy to use the desk that she has.

If I, or if I rule in in your favor, that's your request, correct?

That, or like, I am, I am not opposed to getting a desk set up or whatever that is conducive to her working in that space or in a different kind of desk, you know, different kind of chair.

I am,

like,

if the work can get done at a desk.

Izzy, if you had a different kind of desk, would that make a difference?

No.

Right, okay.

Nice try, Miles.

Yeah.

In his defense, Miles has spent time and effort making it as nice as possible.

It's just not a couch.

It's just not a couch.

And Izzy, when you finish your grad program, you're going to go move anyway.

So how far away is that in your future?

A year?

I'm in the middle of my second year.

So in a year and a half.

A year and a half.

So you've got 18 months to figure this out, to get this sorted.

So if I were to rule in in your favor, Izzy, what would you have me rule?

I would prefer that Miles just lets me know when he's feeling stressed about the clutter and we can work on just like cleaning it together.

Is that a problem that happens?

It feels like I notice that he's tense and then

we need to clean.

And I feel...

Even though this has happened multiple times, it still feels to me like it comes out of nowhere.

I'm not as attuned.

And I also just experience paranoia every day.

So it's hard to tell what's in my head and what's

not actually a fun thing to experience.

No, it got better once I could name it.

So instead of saying, are you mad at me over and over again?

I could just say, I'm feeling paranoid.

Are you mad at me?

That's a huge improvement.

And Miles, are you mad at Izzy?

No,

this is entirely a,

like, I feel like I cannot use pretty much like 70% of the apartment

when it gets that cluttered.

Right.

And here, I'm just going to ask you one more time.

I understand that you feel you cannot use it, but that feeling of not being able to use it, how does that make you feel,

Miles?

Not good.

Okay,

I mean, give me more.

Give me more.

It feels like a weight.

It honestly feels like a mental weight that is like, all right, I am now relegated to

the office that I'm in.

Yes.

I absolutely cannot go into the rest of of the house how often do the two of you just tidy up your uh your room the the apartment in general i i mean i try to do a bit of cleaning every day um i'm not talking about cleaning but tidying and i noticed you just said i izzy do you ever tidy up

yes but less often since being in school gotcha so being in school it tends to be if saturdays are free which is an if But if Saturdays are free, I'll try to take the whole day and like tidy up and like deep clean the kitchen and vacuum.

Although we got a robot vacuum, which has been life-changing.

Okay, I think I'm going to go into the kitty condo of my mind.

Ponder this for a moment.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Izzy, how are you feeling about your chances?

Oh, very poorly.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I think.

I always feel like Miles has a point, and then I feel guilty for not using the desk more.

Like he has put in this time and effort to set it up for me.

And I feel like my only counter argument is, but I want it this way.

Do your cats always use all the cat furniture that you set up in your apartment?

Yes.

Right now, Soren's on the top, although Lily right now is on the floor because that's where the sun is.

We have organized this apartment around the cats.

I will admit that.

Miles, how are you feeling about your chances?

Not the greatest.

I feel as if the argument for, you know, live and let live a little bit

is definitely

a valid one, especially seeing as I have co-opted a room as an office, as well as, you know, our apartment is not terribly large, so

the space that would be designated as a desk spot would be

not ideal.

Miles, Isabel, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, while we're taking a break from the case, I, I don't know how you feel, I would like to highlight the fact that we're headed to San Francisco.

I feel very, very excited about that.

It has been a long time since we've done a live show.

Truly, one of the jewels in the crown of our touring year has always been our return to Sketchfest year after year.

One of the funnest, funniest, bestest comedy festivals on this planet.

And this planet is the only one we have.

Judge Hodgman, Sketchfest just celebrated its 20th anniversary.

I think I have been in every Sketchfest since the third one.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my gosh.

You're a 17-year?

Yeah, I think that is actually true.

I don't think I'm making that up.

I used to work at Sketchfest, John.

I know.

I think we need to get get you a special sash.

Do you remember when we were in San Francisco and

we were adjudicating a case between two women who were friends, and it was about their hairstyle or something.

And then we learned that one of the women

lived with a man who liked to form secret societies, and everyone in the household wore a special sash.

Yeah, whenever someone came over, they gave them a sash away.

Raya, get thee to Goat Manor to make Jesse Thorne a 17-year Sketchfest sash for him to wear on stage when we appear at the Sydney Goldstein Theater on January 22nd, 2022.

Yeah, Sydney Goldstein Theater, 7.30 p.m., January 22nd, tickets at sfsketchfest.com.

And by the way, we need Bay Area cases right now.

So if you're in the Bay Area and you have a case, no case too small, go to maximumfund.org slash JJ H O.

And if you're not vaccinated, get vaccinated so you can come to that show, baby.

Yeah, it's going to be a lot of fun.

Vaxed up.

Other than that, Jesse, I've got nothing going on.

David Reese and I are continuing to work on our super, duper secret project.

I just, during the break, I told Jennifer Marmor what it was.

Oh, wow.

And she was very impressed.

She was very impressed.

And I hope to have some news to share with you all soon.

But right now, it's still a secret.

So I will say that someone who is doing something in this super secret project, a little thing, a little favor, a paid favor,

a person named Jonathan Colton.

And Jonathan Colton, as you know, is one of my dearest friends and collaborators.

I've known him since I was 18 years old.

And

today is his birthday.

The date of this release is his birthday.

So I would just like to say happy birthday, Jonathan.

I hope you have a good day.

I will refuse to call you, text you, or speak to you on this day.

I'm sure to forget.

But I love you.

Anything going on over at the Put This On shop?

Oh, gosh.

We just had an enormous drop of new items in the put this on shop, including quite a few pairs of shoes,

some cold-painted bronzes of dogs from the turn of the 20th century.

You know, those kind of Austrian cold-painted bronzes?

Of course I do.

Everyone knows.

Yeah,

you know what we're talking about.

I just created a stocking stuffers section and a Jesse's picks section.

And you can also just click on our latest treasures and you will find all of this new stuff.

I mean, there are like several pages of new items that we just got into the store for the holiday season.

There's no excuse to shop anywhere else for your holiday gifts than the put this on shop.

Putthisonshop.com.

And you can use the code VintageJustice.

Almost anything ships for free in the United States.

So go to putthisonshop.com.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So, you know, I've talked in the podcast before

about

how couples often or very rarely have the exact same

level of clutter tolerance.

There's usually, you know, and upbringing and habit and

what clutter you see and what clutter you don't see is very different for everybody.

And when you move in together in a small space, in Illinois,

those things will often come into conflict.

And I'm not talking about cleanliness here.

I'm talking about tidiness.

I'm talking about clutter, right?

Izzy, you say, well, you know, you go in and you do a deep clean of the kitchen and you vacuum or you have your robot vacuum for you.

That's great, but that's not tidiness.

That's clean, right?

And in my home, I have a very low clutter tolerance.

And the person with whom I share my life,

she has an extremely high clutter tolerance.

And I will often

find myself staring at a pair of shoes in the middle of the hallway, going, what are those shoes doing there?

There's a place for shoes.

Now,

what we have done is we have over time

worked together to identify what are the high priorities and the lower priorities because clutter is a mental stressor for me, as it is obviously for Miles.

And

Izzy, I know I don't need to tell you about mental stressors because you deal with them yourself.

The kind of

emotional clutter that surrounds you that makes your mind work overtime and wonder if someone is mad at you.

I am not mad at you.

Izzy, Miles, I am not mad at you, but I am going to say your house is a mess.

I love you, but your house is a mess.

At least to me, right?

You are living

in a clutter situation that is above my tolerance level.

And that is not a judgment, right?

Even though this is Judge John Oshman, that is just, for me,

The fact that you have an office chair with wheels

on a shag carpet has been basically raising my heart rate for the past 40 minutes.

Like that thing cannot roll around.

That thing can't roll around.

I admire you for your kitty condos

because I dream of having one for my cat, our cat.

But I know that if one were in my house, I wouldn't be able to tolerate it because I hate that kind of carpeting.

And it would be pointless because our cat can't jump.

Can't do anything.

When I look at your coffee table and when I look at your spread on the sofa, on the Cheslong, whatever you want to call it, what do you call it?

Is he a couch or a sofa?

This has always been an issue, too, between me and the person who I share my life with.

I call it a couch.

We'll call it a couch.

Like when I look at that spread, I can understand why Miles walks by that and goes, hmm.

My butt is not welcome on that couch.

And not only does it offend

my internal sense of tidiness, but also

I don't feel like I can sit and play Switch with my wife because there's a cat or a computer or a husband, another husband.

She's having an affair with that pillow.

Even though you have a perfectly clean plaid armchair, Miles, that is your chair.

And a whole room to yourself.

Now, I'm going to say right now,

the spatial arrangement in your home, the allotment of space is not fair.

It's not fair that you should have your own office, Miles.

And then you exile

Izzy, who is going to graduate school.

So it's unfair because, you know, I thank you for unionizing

your peers, Miles.

That's really important.

But, you know,

you're lucky because Izzy's like, I don't want that room.

I don't want that room with the banjo in it.

Because if she said, yeah, I really could use it, then I would be bound by fairness to say,

give that room up, dude.

100%.

But she doesn't want it.

She wants that couch.

She wants that couch more than anything.

She doesn't want that dumb desk that straddles the...

There's shag carpeting on one side and hardwood on the other side of the desk.

You're sitting between two worlds.

Shoved in between the door and the window and the kitty condo.

that's not a good place to work.

You know, where you work is very personal, and where you are productive is very personal.

This couch is where it gets done.

This is where the learning gets done.

And my advice to you, and I think this will help both with the tidiness

issue that you're facing, and will respect what Isabel's workflow is get rid of that desk.

It's never going to get used.

Sell it, give it away, get get rid of it.

I might keep, there was in one of the photos, things are constantly moving in this home.

It makes me nervous.

Because in one of the photos of the desk, there was some kind of like productivity caddy next to it, like a file caddy or something.

And now that's gone from this other photo.

I don't know if it's there or not.

It's there.

It was not there and then moved from one room to another.

Right.

And there's that thing on wheels as well.

Oh, yes.

And you roll that over that shag carpet.

The wheel's going.

Don't know.

Don't care for it.

I would say whether that's the item or not,

get rid of the desk, but put in some kind of

separate

work chest or productivity chest or...

you know, like file, some kind of cabinet for all of Isabel's grad school stuff

because I don't believe you, Miles.

I think you are thinking about what's inside that chest, that coffee table chest.

I think you're thinking about all those games in there.

I think that you feel tidiness from the other room like me.

I respect you, but we have to find a compromise here.

And I think the compromise is that, Isabel, I think you...

You can have that couch as your workspace, but you need to be sensitive to the fact that the clutter gets on Miles' nerves silently.

And you can work to make it less cluttered.

You can work together to tidy the house on a Saturday morning or a Sunday morning.

And if this is going to be your workspace, this couch,

then I order you to pick it up a little bit.

And there should be a time when work can be put away somewhere out of sight.

So you already got all those games in that game chest.

So some kind of cabinet, some kind of nice piece of, and I don't want you to go to the Salvation Army.

You guys, I'm not trying to trick you into buying a lot of expensive furniture here.

But something that you can close so you could put your stuff away at the end of the workday and have a demarcation between work and sit on the couch and play switch time.

Because what's lacking in this room is demarcation.

You just just have this flow of emptiness.

It's not a living room.

It's not a dining room.

It's not a kitchen.

It's just shag carpet, then wood, and then nothing.

I'm ordering in Izzy's favor in that the couch is her workspace.

The desk is going to go away.

You're going to declutter to a degree just by getting her to that desk.

It's going to feel like a nicer room to be in.

And I am also ruling in her favor in her request that, Miles, you know, express yourself when you're feeling like,

and don't, you got to find a language that is

not judgmental and not punitive or anything.

Do you know what I mean?

Just like,

I got to let you know this visual static is getting to me.

Do you mind if I just tidy up a little bit here or whatever?

And understand, Izzy, I hope you understand that he's dealing with stuff that he doesn't completely have control over in the same way that your mind is something, sometimes races away with you, too.

And be respectful of that.

So I am ruling in your favor in all of your points, Izzy, but I am also ordering you, as your friend who is not mad at you,

you should try to be a little bit tidier and be sensitive to the fact that

it's getting on Miles' nerves.

You know, you don't have to wait for him to express himself.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Miles, how do you feel?

I feel good.

It's a fair ruling.

And in all regards, that desk is definitely a bit of an afterthought in terms of the layout of the house.

Izzy, how do you feel?

I feel good about it.

I think getting rid of the desk will allow us to rearrange stuff.

And I think the idea of having furniture to put work into will work really well.

And now that I have a judge order, it'll be easier to clean up at the end of every day.

Izzy, have you ever thought about getting one of those rolling work surfaces like my grandparents used to have over their recliner chairs where

it's sort of like a C-shape with a flat table part, and then on the table part, there's big rubber bands, and then underneath the rubber bands are the TV channel guide and some

crossword puzzles?

No, but that sounds awesome.

Yeah, it would be pretty cool.

Miles, Isabel, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Video games.

Video games.

Video games.

You like them?

Maybe you wish you had more time for them.

Maybe you want to know the best ones to play.

Maybe you want to know what happens to Mario when he dies.

In that case, you should check out Triple Click.

It's a podcast about video games.

A podcast about video games?

But I don't have time for that.

Sure, you do.

Once a week, Kickback as three video game experts give you everything from critical takes on the hottest new releases, to scoops, interviews, and explanations about how video games work.

to fascinating and sometimes weird stories about the games we love.

TripleClick is hosted by me, Kirk Hamilton, me, Jason Schire, and me, Maddie Myers.

You can find TripleClick wherever you get your podcasts and listen at maximumfun.org.

Bye.

That's another Judge Sean Hodgman case in the books.

In just a second, we'll have Swift Justice.

First, our thanks to Twitter user at BenjaminWalkup for naming this week's episode Judge Jury and Extra Cushions for Her.

Honestly, I like that one, John.

I like it too.

Yeah.

I like it too.

It really, it really pushes.

I love it.

If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter for the opportunity to do so at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

While you're there, tweet about the show and hashtag it, JJ H.

O.

We're also on Reddit at maximumfun.reddit.com.

Evidence and photos from the show, including photos of those 75-foot cat condos, are on our Instagram account at instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman.

So follow us there.

Really have condo.

If I had a cat that could leap,

I would probably get one.

Yeah.

If there was such a thing as a kitty Marie condo, you would get it.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Okay, here's Swift Justice.

Andrew says, My friend doesn't believe in locking the door of a public solo bathroom.

Help.

What is there not to believe?

Does he believe it's not possible?

Spare everyone pain and embarrassment.

Lock the door, Andrew's friend.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJ Ho or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case is too small.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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