Cat-or-Dogical Imperative

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, cat or doggical imperative.

Alan files suit against his wife, Elaine.

Alan thinks their cat muffin needs a companion.

He'd like to get another cat.

Elaine, however, would prefer to add a dog to their family.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure obscure cultural reference.

You're very handy, I can tell.

I bet you like to podcast a lot, too.

Podcasting is dead.

Oh, that's very fascinating.

I podcast a lot myself.

Some people think I'm too intellectual, but it's a fabulous way to spend your spare time.

I also play racquetball.

Do you have any hobbies?

Like swearing litigants in?

Alan, Elaine, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help help you, God or whatever.

We do.

Yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's currently in talks to star in a remake of the 1970s Disney sequel, The Shaggy DA?

We do.

Yes.

Yes.

It's got a great theme song, sort of music manny.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

How does the Shaggy DA theme song go, Jesse?

We're gonna elect him, Marshaggy.

Gonna elect him Marshagy DA.

But then there's like a patter part.

Oh, is that really it?

Yeah, the verses are patter, and that's how the chorus goes.

I don't have the verses committed to memory.

I'm glad I didn't have Alan and Elaine be seated because I'm sure they wanted to dance to that and they did a good job.

Yeah, well, they certainly would have been roused because it was a rousing rendition.

Yeah.

Alan and Elaine, please be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of popular culture that I and our bailiff Jesse Thorne paraphrased?

I'll give you a hint.

The word podcast was not in this actual quote.

We swapped that in for something else.

Can either of you name the piece of popular culture that we sort of quoted as I entered the courtroom?

Elaine, could you have a guess?

Yeah, the only, I mean, the only movie I know in reference to Cats and Dog is the truth about cats and dogs.

Some truth.

About cats cats and dogs.

That is a good guess.

I'm putting that in the guess book, Alan.

What is your guess?

I know what this is.

I think it's from Ghostbusters.

Hmm.

Wow.

Wow.

A movie I've seen several times.

Interesting.

With our children.

So

your guess is.

That this is a quote from Ghostbusters.

And you probably would guess that I chose a less

quoted quote from Ghostbusters

because the quote that I would want to use would be what, Alan?

Cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

But that would be a gimme.

Right, right, right.

So you went with the racket ball.

When I heard racket ball, I was like, oh, I've only heard someone say, I also play racket ball like once in a movie.

And who said it?

Oh,

the actress from

Dan Agoy?

No, the lady that's the secretary at the front.

She's like, you promised me you'd give me a day off.

Oh, right.

Right.

So you don't know the name of the actor or the character.

Would that be true, Alan?

Yep, I'm going to say you got me.

Because I was putting a lot of Annie Potts sauce on my reading.

Thank you.

There it is.

You did.

Your tone was right on there with Annie Potts' tone.

Well, Alan, okay.

You're absolutely correct.

As much as I tried to hide it, that is a quote from Ghostbusters.

It's Janine played by Annie Potts talking to Egon.

Okay.

Spangler played by the other.

Oh, now, see, now I feel like an idiot.

Harold Ramos.

Harold Ramos, thank you.

Alan, you and I did it together.

But luckily for you, because you could not name the actor or the character, you are spared humiliation because I've decided that's not the cultural reference after all.

This is the new cultural reference.

I have to adjust my speakers.

Right now, we're listening to the A track and we're mixing, sort of playing the role of the conductor, putting together in this case, a pair of tracks which has all of the string section that sounds like this.

There's a harpsichord track

and two flutes.

And there's this nice solo that's split up into two tracks.

Let's put them all together.

If it needs a little more echo,

yeah, that's good.

Now, I played that for you for two reasons.

One, just so that everyone knows

that I always have a backup cultural reference, just in case that's not true.

I had this one,

I never do, and I've rarely been caught as flat-footed as I was today by you, Alan.

But luckily, I did have this alternate in place

because,

do you know who that was speaking, either Elaine or Alan?

No.

No.

No.

That was Wendy Carlos, who celebrated her 81st birthday.

a couple of days ago from this recording on November the 14th.

Wendy Carlos is a pioneering composer, specifically of electronic music.

She helped develop the Moog synthesizer.

Now, Alan's really shaking his head now.

He's nodding like crazy.

You know this person?

I know the Moog.

You know the Moog.

Oh, yeah.

So get to know Wendy Carlos.

She also composed the soundtracks for A Clockwork Orange, The Shining, and Tron.

And this interview with her, which must be circa 1980 or so,

is an incredible thing that circulated on Twitter.

It's just an interview with her in her studio in Greenwich Village, but she is basically draped in every frame by cats.

It's incredible.

Like

she's talking about the original, the very first eight track that she has in her studio, the very first eight track ever made is in her studio.

And she's got a big Siamese cat just sitting on her shoulder.

And then the rest of the thing, there are two Siamese cats, because this whole episode is about multiple pets, pets, sitting on top of her synthesizer as she does this whole thing.

It's great.

It's on my Twitter feed.

We'll put a link to it.

Wendy Carlos is also a pioneer in the trans community because she happens to be a trans woman who came out very early on in the history of that community and is just an incredible creator and someone worth celebrating.

So there you go.

All guesses are wrong.

Now the question is, which one of you two is wrong?

Let me understand this.

You have a cat named Muffin, correct, Alan?

Correct.

Right.

And you would like to add to your pet portfolio another cat.

Correct, Alan?

Correct.

And Elaine, you would like to add to your pet portfolio a dog.

Is that correct?

That's correct.

And I find your cultural reference really amusing because I don't know if you IMDB Alan, but he's a part-time composer and he wants to add more cats.

So this is like almost like a doomsday for me.

Yeah, this is the one time that I did not IMDB search both litigants before getting on the line.

So,

Alan, what are your claims to fame?

Did you compose the music to Tron?

No, I was beat out by that.

No,

for a brief time,

we were in LA and I was pursuing a career in film music.

So, composing and interning for bigger name composers.

And I had the idea of composing music for film.

So I'm familiar with that.

You were the one who came up with that?

Yes.

You had the idea for composing music for film?

Yes.

For my...

Yes, yes.

Wait, are you Alan Silvestri?

That'd be nice.

That would be nice, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

But now you live in Seattle.

Is that correct?

Correct, yeah.

Right.

I am granting myself to treat you both as hostile witnesses

because as an only child and a cat person, this entire discussion disgusts me.

You have children already, correct?

We do.

Three.

Oh, that's more than one, I believe.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

So I, you know, on a cellular level, it's hard for me to understand what you're even contemplating here because, you know, it was hard enough for me to imagine what having two children would be like.

How do you divide your love between two creatures in your house?

Never mind then adding a cat and then adding another animal.

Why would you want to siphon your love away from muffin?

That seems mean, cruel.

We'll talk about your whys.

Okay.

I mean, I get it.

Look, we have one cat, Lola the dum-dum cat.

And we think frequently because she's so

kind of dull and she spends most of the time staring off into space.

We wonder, should she have a little friend?

We've often thought about how much fun it would be to get a greyhound and then then put a little saddle on the greyhound so that Lolo can ride the greyhound around.

That would be great.

Sure.

A lot of fun can be had.

Jesse, you have two dogs.

Yeah, two saddles.

Exactly.

And

I know that you can have more than one cat or dog, just as you can have more than one child, and it's okay.

But I'm terribly afraid of the unknown.

What happens if we add a greyhound, and all of a sudden that greyhound is chasing Lolo around because the greyhound thinks she's a rabbit?

And then my certainty of what will happen, since it's a cat we're talking about, is even greater than my certainty of the unknown.

My fear of the known is great because you know what's going to happen.

Whether it's a cat or a dog, Muffin is going to hate you

deeply for a long time.

And cats know how to get revenge.

But you are both settled on this path, correct?

I can't convince you to just leave well well enough alone.

Well, I mean, this is why we're here talking to you is to maybe you can find you.

I've watched, listened to this for many years.

You always come to a good judgment as far as that most parties are all happy.

Let muffin be an only child.

Next case.

No, this isn't about, I'm not a part of this dispute.

I just need to explain my bias.

But I refuse to recuse myself.

You have a dispute.

I'm going to settle it.

John, I don't think muffin being an only child is even realistic.

Cats can't read alone in their room, and they can't carry briefcases to high school.

It's true.

It's true.

I don't even think they like to read Edward Gorey.

So, all right.

Alan, tell me about Muffin.

How old is Muffin?

I think he's six.

Is that right?

He's five.

Between five and six, somewhere around that age.

Prime of Muffin's life.

Yeah, we rescued him.

Good job.

Yeah, he's a, I guess, a tabby, right?

Like a house cat tabby.

He's very sweet.

He's very calm.

With three kids that sometimes can do rough play with him, he's pretty chilly.

He's a good cat.

How old are your kids?

Let's see.

11, 10, and 8.

We got Muffin because of a request from our oldest.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, when she turned seven, we made the deal.

I think we made that deal when she was about five?

Three.

Oh, okay.

We saw seven was so far away.

And yeah.

Right, right.

So

your daughter, your eldest daughter, correct?

Am I understanding correctly?

Yeah.

Requested a cat and you bequeathed muffin upon her.

Yes, yes.

And

she's 11 now.

Does she have a connection with this cat?

Does she have an investment in whether muffin have a furry friend or no?

She does.

She has an opinion on this.

She's kind of Muffin's mom.

She comes down and gets him his little snack in the morning and she plays with him and she helps manage the litter box.

So she's very much involved.

So Elaine, what is your eldest child's feeling about this new cat or new dog situation?

Not that children should rule the roost.

I'm just wondering.

I think her feelings that she wants, she's like you, she wants neither.

She doesn't want to add, right?

That's her love.

Like you said, she's afraid the tension will be taken away

or that muffin will stop loving her in some way.

That's going to happen.

So why

are you both intent upon ruining both the lives of your cat and at least your oldest child?

Elaine.

You got to just throw it in and see what happens, right?

Grab popcorn and just.

Part of the joke.

Yeah.

They ruined my life.

Vengeance shall be yours.

Alan, I'm afraid that you are losing this case currently.

Elaine just made a really important point, which is

it's your job to destabilize things

for your children to

help them grow.

Sure.

And an initiative of a dog would really do that.

Now, Alan,

you want a cat.

What is the reason for wanting this extra cat?

Toxoplasmosis?

Or do you think Muffin has something lacking in his life?

No,

I was thinking, well, first, we have a neighbor, and she's always had two cats, and I see them play together, and they're just

siblings, so it is a little different, but they're very close together.

And seeing two cats play together and having fun is, you know, that gave me the idea that, well, maybe he would like some companionship.

Muffin is mostly an indoor cat.

We let him out occasionally, but mostly he's inside.

And currently, we're all indoors.

We're all here.

We're working and we're going to class and

doing work.

So right now there's plenty of people around to do stuff.

But this idea came many months before, thinking that if I go to work and the kids go off to school and

maybe he would like a companion.

Maybe he'd like an extra friend.

And I just thought,

maybe a cat would make the most sense.

to bring into the house as for as a campaign for Muffin to keep him company.

When you say we're, you know, we're all stuck inside here, you're not saying

we need some more entertainment.

We need cats fighting each other.

You're saying that when we move forward into a new and better normal and we're able to be outside again,

you're concerned that Muffin will be lonely.

Yeah, I think so.

Do you have evidence that this is a possibility?

I don't.

No, trying to read the cat's mind is obviously hard.

We're probably projecting a little bit, you know, and that's why I feel like maybe he's lonely.

And Elaine's like, I don't think he's lonely.

He's probably fine.

Elaine, what do you think is the situation with Muffin and why do you want a dog instead of a cat?

Well, I think Muffin, first of all, is a cat.

I think cat wants to be alone.

So I don't know, bring another cat is what Muffin is seeking, right?

And companionship.

We're his companions.

And Muffin is five and he's, or six,

and he's kind of acting like a teenager.

So he's kind of, you know, not, I don't know, it's a cat.

Like it doesn't listen to you.

It doesn't do what you want to do.

And,

you know, I'd need one more being rolling their eyes at me and walking away from me.

So

it's, you know, so it's like, if we're going to get an, I don't want another teenager.

Like, I want a dog who would just unconditionally love me.

Yeah.

John, I have three children and two dogs.

And unlike my,

for example, my three-year-old Frankie,

my dogs have never said to me, Daddy, no, I don't like you.

But it's true.

Cats will often say to you in not so many words,

I don't like you.

Cats have conditional love down.

Dogs do tend to be a little bit more fawning.

Do you have an idea of what style of dog you're looking for size-wise?

Not really.

I think we both agree, you know, we'll look for a dog that

is gentle, you know, and plays well with the kids and is just, you know, chill.

I think.

I think that's more important to us than

the looks of the dog, right?

That doesn't

judge a book by its cover.

Right.

But there's no, it's not like you grew up like, I've always wanted a lab.

You know what I mean?

Oh, right.

No.

I mean, except to the extent that we all grew up wanting our own Marmaduke.

In your kitchen right now, there's already a long string of sausages.

Yeah, there is a human in our household who's very into getting a great Dane.

Oh, and I have to explain to him, those poops are the size of human poops.

You don't want it.

You don't want that.

I don't.

Yeah.

Alan's the dog person, though.

He grew up with dogs.

I didn't even really grow up with dogs.

Oh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I grew up with both.

And

I love both.

I do.

I love dogs and I love cats.

Seattle is a very dog-friendly town.

There's lots of dogs.

Our neighborhood actually has a lot of cats and a lot of outdoor cats.

They come and look at muffins through the window and they stare at them and they walk away.

And I know where this can go.

It could go either my way or it could go Elaine's way.

So it's like, you know, it's when it's, I'm prepared for that type of judgment.

I'm only thinking of, you know, the purpose of why I want to do this was just, I think he's, I think he could use a companion.

I'd love to see him curled up with another cat on the couch playing around.

Yeah, you want what the neighbors have.

What's their last name?

Jones?

Yes, I want to give the Joneses.

Yes, sure.

You want that Jones cat magic.

We have another neighbor that also has a dog and a cat.

Why can we beat those Joneses?

How does that cat and dog get along?

Very well.

Do they cuddle up together?

Yes, they love each other.

And they brought out more love in their children than they've ever known, is what she described it to me.

Oh, more, how so?

Because now they had more poops to pick up?

Yeah, probably.

I think it's just, you know, I think you expand your heart, right?

I mean, I don't think.

I'm going to make a note of that.

Expand your heart.

I mean, that's from the Grinch, right?

Your heart expands to the size of.

What is it?

Yeah,

three times.

Dr.

Seuss, you can bring Dr.

Seuss into this.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

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Who would do the work of taking care of this dog, this hypothetical dog?

Probably the parents.

Us.

Yeah.

Yeah, but I'm talking about between the two of you.

Oh, it's a shared job.

I mean, you know, someone's going to have to take the dog out for the walk at night.

Someone's going to have to get up early in the morning, take the dog up for a walk then.

And

we know it's going to fall onto us for the most part.

And we'll share it evenly.

Alan, do you believe that that's true?

That the dog duties in both spellings of the word duty will be shared equally?

I think so.

Yeah, that I'm not too worried about.

All right.

You're not making a very good case for yourself, Alan.

At this point, you should be saying, Elaine has never had a dog.

She doesn't understand what's involved.

I do.

It's a completely extra level of care.

I don't have three kids.

No, I'm, Elaine, I'm, you don't have, I'm on your side.

Okay, oh, okay.

I'm dutying on Alan right now.

You should be saying that

Elaine doesn't know what a dog entails.

And you, Alan, are going to, it's going to fall to you, and it's not going to be fair.

Not only are you not going to have the pleasure of watching two cats cuddle, but also you're going to be taking care of this dog, and Elaine won't, but you're not making that argument for yourself.

Well, that wouldn't be, no, I'm not.

That wouldn't be fair to Elaine.

And I've listened to this show so much that I hear couples and guys kind of try to make that claim similar.

And I know that's just not true with Elaine.

I know that she'll

split the work.

But yeah, I mean, we'll both have to be out there with the little plastic bag scooping up after the dog.

And it's fine.

You know, it's a thing.

But as far as splitting the duties or who's responsible, yeah,

it would call to us.

You said splitting the duties.

I'd recommend alternating on the duties.

Yeah, that's probably good, rather than cutting them in half.

Yeah.

Well, speaking of duties, there is the case, and I know this because you sent in some evidence, that

you will need to get more litter boxes.

And Elaine, you sent in

one of my favorite images in life, which is a cat sitting in a litter box trying to act like this is normal.

It's one of the great, Jesse.

Have you ever had a cat?

I've never had a cat myself.

I got to say that, you know, there are a lot of rewards to owning a cat.

There are some downsides too.

For example, you have a box of poop in your house.

And when you see that box of poop, you're kind of reminded.

It's like, oh, I am hosting a parasitic creature.

My mind is no longer my own.

But every now and then, you'll wander by and you'll see the cat in that litter box.

And it's the greatest, it's the most hilarious thing because it is this creature that is obsessed with its own dignity being caught in the act of pooping or peeing.

And the look on its face is hilarious.

It just pretends that you're not there.

It's so humiliated.

I don't know where you got this picture, Elaine, but this is exactly what this cat is like.

I'm not here.

But you sent in this picture of a litter box because

why?

Because

when we adopted muffin, I mean, we, you know, like any new parents, right?

Cat or human, you just wing it.

So you get one litter box and you think that's enough for a cat.

Right.

But then muffin starts to not poop in the litter box, but outside of the litter box, which we couldn't figure out why.

Like, is it dirty?

Is it smelly?

But then upon researching and talking to the neighbor with the two cat,

she said, Oh, you didn't know cat needs a plus one box and whatever.

Like, the cat's gonna need to be in VIP.

Yeah, exactly.

Cats always order bottle service.

That's right.

Exactly.

So, apparently, yeah, if you have one cat, you'd have to have two litter boxes.

And if you have two cats, you have to have three litter boxes.

Yeah.

And lo and behold, when we got the second box, Muffin starts being normal and uses the litter box.

Like, weird things about cats, it's ridiculous.

I've never experienced, I've had cats forever.

Sometimes one cat, sometimes two cats.

I've only ever had one litter box.

And you also have some evidence here that suggests that there is a cat expert who confirms this advice.

Yes, if you Google

cat and litter box problems, apparently there's a cat expert named Jackson Galaxy.

Jackson Galaxy

who recommends 1.5

litter box per cat.

I don't know where he derived a 1.5, but you just round it to two, I guess.

I want to go to the pet store and go, yeah, can I get a half litter box, please?

A Demi litter box?

I want to go to the pet store and ask to speak with Jackson Galaxy.

And then they reply, I'll get him.

Also, this isn't a pet store.

It's a bong store.

And then you have a picture of Muffin's litter box, which looks...

What's going on here, Elaine?

Yeah, that's another thing.

He's messy.

Like, cats are,

you know, they'll just kick the litter everywhere in every direction.

I don't know what it is, like, burying or whatever it is, it's everywhere.

So we try to get litter box with covers, but then...

then he wouldn't use the litter box with cover or he would use it and then come out and just stepped in poo, like just has poo on his paw and just steps everywhere.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Cats are weird.

So your solution to the one the one litter box is not enough problem was to take another full-size litter box and shove that in front of the other litter box in a narrow niche?

That's what it looks like.

Plus, it looks like, if I'm interpreting this picture right, you also have a Roby, the Nintendo robot.

Looks like you got a little R2-D2 in there, some kind of robot in there.

It's a diaper.

Well, you guys have kids.

It's diaper genie before cat poop.

So it's called Ped Genie.

Oh, okay.

I got you.

All these photos, of course, will be available at the Judge John Hodgman show page at maximumfund.org and on our Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

But

I'm not sure that you necessarily want to run to check out this photo of this litter hellscape.

Where in your house did you shove all the where is your poop niche in your house that you shoved all these things in or your apartment or whatever?

In our basement.

We have a little extra room where the water heater is, right?

Yeah.

And that's, we built that specifically for Muffin.

So he had his own space.

I mean, I didn't even show you a picture.

We cut out a hole for him because he couldn't use the cat flap.

He would freak out.

And then so we cut a hole in the sliding door just so he could.

He could just go in and.

I mean, this cat is like VIP.

I'm no Jackson Galaxy, though, you guys.

I kind of feel like if I were to add an extra litter box, I might put it in a different part of the basement so that Muffin would have a choice instead of this.

He has to walk through a litter box to get to a litter box.

Yes, yes.

But the good thing is, we can close that door all the way.

And with the little hole cut out, he can go in and out and contain all of that litter box stuff in this little room.

Get rid of the litter boxes and just fill this whole thing with litter.

It seems clear to me that the only answer to this is to get a dog to intimidate the cat.

Yes, thank you.

Exactly.

To put it in its place.

You don't like muffin, do you, Elaine?

I do love muffin.

I adore him, but he's a cat.

I mean, yes, there's a built-in contentious relationship there.

Exactly.

Cats do not enjoy making you happy.

Yeah, when I come home at the end of a long day of work, at least when I was going to work,

There is no better feeling when your children are completely occupied with yelling at each other and your spouse is completely occupied with trying to manage the potential violence between your children to have a dog come up to the door who is absolutely thrilled that you're there.

Yeah, I can see that.

But it looks like on your evidence, Alan, that muffin is into you and at least one of your children, you sent in some very snuggly photos.

Yes.

What is this evidence of?

From the research I did, fairly limited, admittedly, but some of the research is that cats can be pretty clingy if they're in search of companionship.

One of the symptoms could be that they're kind of clingy.

Right.

And Yamuffin likes me.

He likes Elaine, too,

you know, and crawls up with us and sits on us.

And I think I tolerate him a little more than Elaine does.

There's a picture of him just lying on my son because he just wants to be there, wants to be on, you know, get that attention.

Yeah, this is what you, I mean, first of all, this is an enormous cat

yeah the cat is spread out on your son the way that the the batter spreads out when you're pouring it into a pan to make a pancake

to the edges this your son is under a blanket so I cannot see the the specific width of this child, but this cat is stretched way over past either side of this child.

And it does not look like this child could get up if he wanted to.

Yeah, and that is his excuse.

I can do do my homework because Muffin is on me.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm familiar with that.

If in our house,

you're sitting on the couch, the cat, our cat, Lolo, the dum-dum cat, will sort of snuggle in between your legs if you're like, if you have your legs out on the couch, kind of like half lying on the couch.

And that, and that means Lolo has legs, means the person who's on the couch cannot get up to do anything

and must be weighted on hand and foot and legs.

Cat long.

So you want this to stop.

You want your cat to stop cuddling with you.

I only think that that could be a symptom of maybe him being so clingy.

And I do like it.

I don't mind it at all.

He's very sweet, but he will sit right on top of me while I'm trying to do something.

So this is evidence that

he wants a little bit more social interaction than he's getting.

Exactly.

And you send in some pictures of some clawed up chairs and stuff.

What is this evidence of?

Yeah, they can be destructive if they're acting out or they're in need of some social interaction.

He can really go to town on some of the stuff we have that, I don't know if it just feels good to him or he just has this extra energy or whatever it is, but he will scratch away on certain furniture in the house.

And again, it's another thing that could be a sign that

more social interaction, another companion, could be helpful.

Maybe that's why he could be acting out.

It's a cat.

It's going to scratch everything.

Yeah, exactly.

Two cats are going to double the scratches.

Double the scratches, three times the litter box.

Laying on every human being they can find.

That may very well happen.

Yes,

I am not a lawyer, obviously.

There are some holes in this, but I just, I feel that perhaps maybe the scratches would go down.

I don't know.

It's possible they could go up, but maybe with this companionship, he would be more occupied.

Maybe when I'm trying to make dinner, he doesn't do that thing around my legs where I'm trying to open the oven and I don't want to burn him, but he's just got to be all up in there.

You know, maybe when if he has another kitty, you know, he won't be so intent on just ripping through that chair or that mat.

Well, a dog will keep him occupied.

Yeah, I mean, that's an argument as well, Alan.

I mean, a dog.

True.

Yeah, that's correct.

That could do it.

I still think that, I think a cat might be more happy with a cat friend.

And what do your

kids say?

Not that they matter, Elaine.

I agree with you.

Children don't matter.

They've ruined your life.

They've introduced chaos, but you're about to introduce some more chaos.

It's payback time.

All right.

And you would say a dog is greater payback?

They would be angrier about a dog than a cat?

No, they'll have to do chores, right?

They're going to have to go take the dogs out for a walk.

They're going to have to learn responsibility.

Okay.

I think I heard everything that I need to in order to make my decision.

Do you have any other evidence or thoughts that you want to add, Elaine?

Alan?

The only thing I can say is that I do think with cats, sometimes we do go overnight or we'll stay overnight places and we can take off and we can leave for a night with a cat and come back.

You have three children, sir.

No, I mean, we take the kids, obviously.

Where are you going to go overnight?

camping maybe or maybe into a maybe in another five years we'll see yeah there's nothing dogs hate more than camping

okay that was a bad bad example yeah

i was thinking you can leave the cat alone you can't leave a dog alone that was where i was trying to go with that because a dog will go crazy if you leave a dog overnight you know dog is more work dog is more work yeah yeah maybe you should just get a house plant my my son does suggest uh venus flytrap Oh, yeah.

Those are kind of hard to

surprisingly hard to take care of.

Yeah, you have to feed it bugs, I think.

And that's where I draw the line.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Find around the house.

Yeah.

Basically, you become a pet for the Venus flytrap.

I've been there.

A minion.

Then, of course, it starts demanding blood, and

eventually you feed it your boss.

Right, right.

Starts singing songs.

They call it the Dracula plant.

It's a favorite plant of Draculas.

Number one.

Yep.

All right.

Well, I'm going to go climb into my litter room and make my decision.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Elaine, how do you feel about your chances in this case?

I feel pretty good.

I feel like it's a pretty straightforward case.

You know, I think Alan, you know, has a lot of holes in his argument.

So, and luckily, I feel like my arguments are pretty strong.

Alan, how are you feeling?

We'll see.

I feel like I trust whatever he decides will be good.

Again, I know I didn't have like an ironclad case, but I just said what I thought was on my mind.

And I felt like I gave a little bit of evidence and tried to make my point, and I leave it to the court.

Do cats even like other cats?

Sometimes.

We've done some.

From what I read, yes, that's possible.

Let's roll them bones and find out.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So, Alan, you know, first of all, I want to apologize for batting you around like a caught mouse.

You deserve better in my courtroom because I understand

your feeling and your desire.

I've seen cats cuddle up together.

It's incredible.

As a natural cat person, I want this in my life.

I feel you.

And, you know, when you go and check out Wendy Carlos,

she also has a website that I don't think has been updated since 1998, but there are lots of photos of her multiple Siamese cats just hanging out together.

But

they are all related to each other.

And

in my limited experience,

the cats that really love each other tend to be littermates.

Not to say that it can't be done.

We had two cats for a number of years.

When I merged my household

and my cat dowry

with my wife's household and her cat dowry, I had Petey, she had Francis.

They,

over

years, learned to be in the same room with each other.

But it took a long time.

Cats are social, as you pointed out in your evidence, and

in time

can be socialized to be together.

But it does take time.

I mean, we honestly, it took years for Pete and Francis to be able to chill together.

And like, I would bring my wife into the room so we could take a picture if they happened to be on the same bed together, but like five feet apart.

That was a huge, momentous occasion.

Elaine,

you want a dog because you are an agent of chaos.

If you're going to up the chaos, you're going to go all the way and just go cross species.

Like, let's just see what happens.

And a dog, obviously, is a big question mark, you know, because I've seen those Tom and Jerry cartoons.

The dogs hate the cat.

They want to eat the cat with a knife.

That was always a weird thing about Tom and Jerry.

You know that you knew that cats wanted to eat the mouse.

That's what cats do.

But dogs do not go around trying to eat cats.

But every time I still have it in my mind, when that dog would see Tom the cat, the dog would put on a napkin around, tie a napkin around his neck and get a knife and fork.

Gross.

It's a gross image.

There's a bulldog carving into a cat.

That said, when I'm living on a desert island and someone comes to rescue me, when I see them, they do look like a fully dressed turkey.

So either way,

what you are proposing is ruining your existing cat's life

and making it scared and sad and weirded out.

I mean,

I'm going to go ahead and put Margaret on blast.

You don't know Margaret.

Margaret used to work at Books are Magic,

where you can order, sign and personalize copies of all my books for the holiday season.

That's a plug, booksarmagic.net.

Margaret got a cat, named it one of the best cat names of all time, Birthday.

Had that, had the birthday of the cat.

Birthday of the cat was so happy.

I would follow that Instagram, see that happy, big old cat, just enjoying life.

And then Margaret and her roommate went and got another cat, a little boy they call Baby.

Now they only take pictures of baby, except in the background, you just see birthday, sad.

She tries to convince me that it's getting better.

It's not getting better for birthday.

That's an only child who just got a sibling.

The worst.

Dog could be the same.

Dog could ruin Muffin's life.

We don't know.

We don't know.

Oh.

And yet, so much of what life is about is making these choices, not knowing what the outcome is going to be.

When it was suggested to me that we have a second child, I was like, that's impossible.

Who knows what's going to happen?

And then someone said to me, expand your heart, some stupid stuff like that.

We had that second child, and guess what?

My heart expanded.

I trusted the other person with whom I was having children, my wife.

Why didn't I just say that?

I trusted my wife to know better, or to at least know more than I did, because she grew up with siblings.

And and it worked out.

Worked out great.

Not always easy, but it worked out great.

I don't know what moved you guys to have three children.

Come on, that's too much.

Agent of chaos.

Jesse, you know.

Yeah, I agree as the parent of three.

It's very hard for me to appreciate what, but what you're doing is correct.

You both, you want to expand the chaos in your life and see what happens.

You're willing to roll the dice.

Alan, your cases are equally strong

because essentially they're based on kind of nothing.

You kind of just want another cat.

Helene kind of just wants another dog.

You could leave well enough alone and be perfectly happy, but

you want to flip this table over one way or the other.

And the problems with cats and an extra cat or an extra dog in terms of what they are going to

cause to your household to happen, what's going to happen to muffins' quality of life and yours, equally unknown, basically.

I think that the

compromised compromise position here

is a dog.

I think it's the better move.

Here's why, Alan, and I'm sorry.

I want to see two cats cuddling more than anything.

I want that in my life so hard.

But it's so hard to achieve.

I've looked at Muffin.

Muffin is a huge cat.

Muffin clearly can hold his own.

Muffin is not going to be pushed around.

He can push back on that dog.

That dog starts bringing out that knife and fork.

Muffin is at a time in his life when he is extremely playful.

He is a teen cat, as Elaine pointed out.

If he were an elderly cat, I would feel less inclined to go along with this.

I also noticed that your litter situation is a hellhole.

And I don't think you should add to it.

I think it's time that at least one animal in your house poop outside.

Because this is not, it's not going to get better in that litter nook that you've fashioned for muffin.

And I think you need to rethink all of your litter situation.

That's

shoving one box, one litter box in front of another litter box is not.

I've never met Jackson Galaxy, but I'm sure that is not what Jackson Galaxy meant by getting another litter box.

You might as well be putting one on top of the other.

Now, what I would suggest, this is an extra compromise position, is see if in Seattle

you have the opportunity to foster dogs that are waiting to be adopted.

I'm sure you've considered this.

Yes.

You could foster one or two dogs just to see what happens with muffin.

And maybe you'll get lucky, and maybe one of these foster dogs and muffin will have a love connection, and then you enjoy what's called a failed foster.

You just keep it.

You'll be doing good in your community while you do it, and you'll have a real-life on-the-job training of what it will be like, what the emotional and chore landscape is going to be with these two animals.

So I would suggest you look into that.

But then,

you know, look, this is the other part of parenting, right?

Our children grow, they move out, life proceeds, we lose family members, muffin dies, it will happen.

It's all right, Muffin.

That's when you move in, Alan.

Get two cats.

Let Muffin have the greatest life Muffin can have.

You've already made a commitment to this cat.

You can try adding on a foster dog.

That's my recommendation.

See if that enlarges not only your heart, but muffins.

Muffin.

Muffin deserves a chance to enjoy an enlarged heart.

Sounds like a condition.

My dog literally has an enlarged heart.

Which one?

Coco.

She has to take pills.

They're beef-flavored.

Oh, cocoa and her beef-flavored pills sounds like a great Dr.

Seuss book.

Yeah.

Fulfill and honor your commitment to giving him the best life possible.

And And then should a natural transition come along?

I don't care if you have a dog at that point, you can go ahead and get two cats because the dog doesn't even, the dog's going to be thrilled.

Two cats, brother and sister, brother and brother, sister and sister.

Sure.

Right?

Yep.

And then everyone gets what they want, except your children, which is the whole point.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Alan, how are you feeling?

Great.

I knew it would be a good judgment.

I knew it was a good compromise.

And, you know, I think this was a lot of fun.

I like how hard Alan is working not to be a jerky husband on this show.

He has clearly

heard the inflexible, unheeding husbands

in past heterosexual married relationships on Judge John Hodgman and has resolved to take a different path.

Never turns out well for those guys.

Elaine, how are you feeling?

Awesome.

I am so glad he made the right call.

I've not,

I didn't know what to expect coming in because, you know, Alan loves Judge John Hodgman and I felt like I didn't know as much about it, but I feel like he's

wise beyond the role of law.

So I'm very happy.

Well, Alan and Elaine, thanks for joining us on Judge John Hodgman.

It was great to talk to you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

In a moment, Swift Justice.

But first, our thanks to Andrew Epler-Zindel for naming this week's episode Cat or Doggical Imperative.

If you'd like to name a future episode, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, where we regularly put out calls for submissions.

You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H.

O.

and check out the maximum fun subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com to chat about this episode.

We're on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff.

And Judge John Hodgman is produced by Jennifer Marmer with the help from a certain tiny marmer's bubble lawnmower this week.

But no appearance from Leaf Blower.

over at your house.

I know, no leaf blower.

Record on a different day.

No leaf blower.

Now, swift justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Luke says, my wife insists that the park is down the road from us, despite the fact that it is both uphill and northward.

I contend it is up the road.

This is something that

I was always mystified by.

You know, Jesse, that I'm a weird anglophile, among other things.

And how it is convention.

It's a lover of weird angles.

That's right.

I like oblique angles.

I like acute angles.

I like them all.

In England, they would always say up to London, no matter what direction you were coming from.

And I couldn't understand that until I appreciated that, in the imagination of a person living in London, London was above everything else.

It is a centering of itself, such that everything else is below it.

And that, I can only imagine, is why Luke's wife says down the road, because their house is the center of their lives, and everything else leads down from it into some gutter that is not them.

Whereas Luke situates himself in a rational Cartesian grid that includes all points equally and therefore describes where the park is via cardinal direction, north, south, east, west, with the common convention that if it is north of you, you are going up to it.

I prefer the latter.

A relational system where none of us is above the other.

It's easier to understand.

When you put it that way, you're actually creating a rational system of direction that another person could follow.

So I'm going to tell Luke's wife, that park is up the road as the crow flies.

There's so much as the crow flies controversy on Reddit this week.

Oh, my goodness.

People are upset you didn't give drive times, apparently.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJHO or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case is too small.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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