Trash Can Detective

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm guest Bailiff Trevell Anderson, filling in for Jesse.

We are in chambers this week to clear the docket.

How is life going for you, Judge?

Well, you know, we started doing this thing where we can see each other.

You've been a guest on the show before.

We did a docket clearing with Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Yes.

If you don't know, and you really should,

Trevell is the co-host with Jarrett Hill of the Fantai podcast on the Maximum Fun Network, which is a great conversation.

I mean, it started all the way back on the 6th of February.

Oh, yes.

Right?

And it started as basically a fun pop culture-fueled podcast of you and Jarrett talking about problematic faves.

Very much so.

Yes.

Things in culture that you like, but I mean, first episode, of course, being Kevin Hart, problematic faves.

Right?

Well, it was about the whole podcast, right, is about having our tagline is having these complex and complicated conversations about the gray areas in our lives.

The people you love, but also have anti-feelings toward.

Right.

You are a fan of and anti.

There we go.

And that's the reason the show is called Fonty.

Fonty, yes.

You did one on why white people love Wakanda, which cut a little bit close to the bone, I'll tell you.

And,

you know, so you've been leading complicated complicated and hard conversations for a long time.

And now that has naturally intersected with this moment of profound protest and reckoning with systemic anti-blackness

and injustice.

And I just have to say, you know, last couple of episodes that I listened to, the conversations were really bracing and inspiring and smart and funny.

I like all those words.

And, you know, like everyone, the deal is like, you got to have these conversations,

but it's so hard and it's so emotional.

I mean, even for me, a guy who has benefited from 400 years of systematic racism,

that the goal is to keep the conversation going so people don't turn it off and keep the pressure on this moment so that some real structural change happens instead of just some window dressing and we all go home.

That's what we're hoping for.

Right.

I think the way that you have been addressing and leading those conversations over at Fantai, that's how I actually pronounce the podcast.

I know how it's pronounced.

Just so great.

So I really urge Judge John Hodgman listeners, if they are not already subscribing to Fantai, do it.

Don't do it.

Do do it.

Today is July the first rabbit rabbit.

Of course, June was Pride month.

Trevell, how is your Pride month?

It's a weird one.

It was a very weird one, a different one,

but also one that was very much the same.

You know, we saw all of the protests and the unrest happening.

and, you know, Pride

at its inception was a protest.

And so for me, it wasn't that much different.

I think we were able to see a lot more conversations being had within the LGBTQ community that took into account intersectionality and took into account how it was, you know, black and brown, queer and trans folks who got this stuff started in the first place.

And so for me, it's been really great to see people coming to that realization who might not have known that information prior.

Now, look, I don't mean to be a know-it-all, but I know all about that history of Pride and its roots in actual direct action protests.

And you know why I know?

Because I read your piece.

Oh.

I read your piece about it in Esquire magazine.

Yes.

You know, been doing some writing about the moment as well.

And so

I can't hate what Pride Month has been like.

We also got some great news recently from the Supreme Court as it relates to LGBTQ people not being able to be fired for just being LGBTQ.

And it affirms a whole bunch of other rights for LGBTQ people, just like moving through the world.

And so I think that was a really great moment to happen during Pride Month, during these conversations we're having about social unrest and accountability.

It's been, it's been okay.

It's been okay.

It's been a lot of downs.

Yes,

but some ups, a couple ups.

But some ups and some mediums.

Very much so.

You don't get big ups without some real downs.

That's what they tell me.

That is what they tell me.

If we just kept it at medium all the time, I mean,

that was part of the problem.

Very much so.

And, you know, there is, I do want to be clear to say there's still much more work to be done.

Yes.

There's still so much more

to be won and to be fought for, but it's good to celebrate the wins when we get them.

Yeah.

Well,

this, as you know, is a a podcast about wins.

I'll be honest with you.

It's a hard time to do a podcast that is based on the criminal justice system hosted by a white man pretending to be a judge.

A little complicated.

A little complicated.

A little fantastic for my, you know what I mean?

Life is complicated.

Hey, that's right.

But what we do here is we hear disputes.

It is not criminal court.

It is more

court of the human heart and some small claims thrown in.

And we have disputes,

someone will win.

And someone will lose in each dispute.

And you're going to help me clear the docket today.

Trevelle, thank you for doing it.

Let's get into it.

Let's get into it.

First up, we have something from Andrea or Andrea, you know, depending on where she's from.

Yeah, Fantai or Fanti.

She says, I don't like being tickled, but my husband, Shane, refuses to listen to me about this.

Over the 11 years that we've been together, we've had countless conversations about this issue, but he has yet to stop.

He thinks that tickling is fun, even if I don't enjoy it.

What's more, he'll use tickling as a dread, as a threat.

For example, he'll say, if you don't move, I'll tickle you.

I would appreciate an order that he stop tickling me.

Let me just say, first of all,

super producer Jennifer Marmor, you know what name I'm a fan of?

No.

Shane.

Oh, me too.

Yeah.

Really like that name.

I know some good Shanes.

I do as well.

Yeah.

Is Shane a good Shane or a bad Shane for tickling without consent?

Okay, I think the obvious is that you should always have consent of your partner for whatever activity is taking place.

That's what my, that's what I think my gut is saying.

However, I have some questions.

Please.

And one of my questions is...

Maybe Shane has a thing for tickling?

Yes.

Oh.

Yes, one of those things.

Yes.

and so i wonder if it's you know there's a really great weird documentary called tickled that came out a couple years ago and i just wonder if you know shane might be you know a perfect candidate for that documentary and therefore there's something more to him being interested in tickling andrea than just you know

making her making her mad or making her upset you know now i did not see that documentary

i hear it takes a strange turn.

Have you seen it?

Yes, I have.

It does take

a very peculiar turn.

Yeah, okay.

Which makes me think of it and bring it up in this moment because, you know, some people really like tickling.

Yeah.

So you're saying that Shane is perhaps expressing

a kink.

Yes.

That for Shane has no name as yet.

Shane does not know or feel comfortable enough to say to Andrea or Andrea,

maybe he doesn't even know how to pronounce her name.

Maybe that's the level of their communication is so bad.

You would hope it was better 11 years in, but

you never know.

Maybe Shane is wanting to say, like, this, I really,

this makes me, I'm just going to say this because we have a lot of precocious, weird 13-year-olds who listen.

So, you know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about sex.

I also read about it once.

This may be a a sexy thing for Shane.

It might be.

It might be.

That's the immediate thought that I have when I read this, read this question, this statement.

So I think we're in agreement.

The Shane needs to, Shane needs consent to do things to another person's body.

Yes.

And it's pretty clear that Andrea or Andrea.

is not into this currently.

At all.

If it's the case, the Shane is listening to this podcast and he's like, Yeah, you know what?

I really do.

I get it now.

I just, this makes me excited in a special way.

I would like to enjoy this with my partner.

I don't want to violate her space.

So I'm going to talk to her about it and I'm going to say,

first of all,

wife, would you remind me how you pronounce your name?

And I get that right finally.

And then I'm going to say,

this kind of makes me feel special and excited.

Can I do it anyway?

Does that change the equation?

Well, no, because she's made it clear that she don't like it.

Right.

Right.

And so maybe this is an opportunity for them to have a conversation about a way for him to, you know, if this is something that he really enjoys, a way for, I don't know, I'm sure there are other toys or other apparatuses that might be available to help, you know, allow him to carry out his feelings.

The Judge John Hodgman show should go to eBay and buy a 25-year-old Tickle Nielmo and send it to this guy.

Look.

Jennifer Marmor, do we have it in the budget?

I think we can find some room for it.

Yeah, that's

think of us whenever Max FunCon happens.

I see what you're saying, because I think that it is unlikely, though it is possible.

I do not know Andrea's mind.

That's the whole point of this.

Is that people in a relationship, a loving relationship, need to communicate.

They need to be straightforward.

They need to have uncomfortable conversations.

Yes.

It is, I would think, unlikely if I were Andrea and Shane said to me, I want to tickle you because it makes me feel good,

that I would be like, oh, that changes everything.

Go for it.

Here are my armpits.

I love you and I want you to be happy.

It could happen that way.

Maybe.

But you'll never know unless you have that conversation and it might open up, as, you know, Trevell, you say,

an avenue towards more conversations about a way to get out one's healthy, fun, special, intimate things.

Could be.

My wife and I have a son, 14 years old.

And you know what you do with kids is you tickle them from time to time.

And then I had to have a hard think about that, you know, because they're human beings.

I used to hate being tickled.

But it's fun to tickle little kids.

Yes.

And they seem to enjoy it.

I almost went over and tickled my 14-year-old son today while he was playing Apex Legends or whatever.

He's been doing his computer school work, but otherwise he's just in his PlayStation world.

And I reached down.

I was just going to shove my fingers under his armpit.

I just wanted to tickle that guy again.

I was like, this is a, he is as tall as I am.

And by the way, he's 14.

I don't want to be anywhere near his armpit.

You know what I mean?

But also, he is and has always been a whole human being

who deserves the right to not be tickled if they don't feel like it.

So, I'm not saying parents never tickle your kids, but I think it starts even earlier than before than marriage.

I mean, I don't think you tickle, you tickle.

It's obviously it's a form of intimacy, right?

But I mean, you know, read the room.

It's not your right to tickle anyone in your world.

Have a conversation about it.

All right.

Trevell, what's next?

What's next?

All right, we have Johan says one one of my best friends, let's call him Ragnarok, claims he has never farted in his life.

All of us in the Freight group have never heard him fart.

Surely a quality to envy.

But we have all smelt it and said nothing.

It's the Nordic non-confrontational silent way.

My evidence in this case is twofold.

One, I googled search.

I googled, is it possible to not fart?

And it led to undisputed results in my favor.

And two, Ragnarok's mother confirmed her son's natural flatulence.

My requests may arise from envy, but nevertheless, I seek justice for claims against the laws of nature, mother nature, and mother.

Thank you for reading my case.

Thank you, Trevelle, for reading Johan's case.

Out loud.

Out loud.

Never said fart at that much in my life.

Ragnarok, by the way, Trevelle, I believe, is Johan's attempt to bribe this court by secretly buzz marketing my 2012 Netflix stand-up special called Ragnarok,

which then got ditched off of Netflix and is not available anywhere in the world except,

and I would imagine 50 or so deluxe DVD sets that are moldering on a pallet in East Hampton, Massachusetts in the Tapatico warehouse there.

You can buy them.

The special sets, if you still have a DVD player, that's how you can see my thing.

And the Ragnarok comes with

the special set comes not only with the DVD, but also

Hodgman-branded non-gendered cologne, a scent.

And as well, a jar of custom blended mayonnaise that

now is just poison.

Don't open it.

That's just a little plug.

Go to the MaxFun store or to patico.com and check me out.

Does Fantai have merch, by the way?

We don't, not yet.

Yeah.

So stay tuned.

Don't lurch, get merch.

Don't lurch, get merch.

There we go.

But everyone was like, I saw that Netflix took it off.

And people were saying, why did they take it off?

And I was like, I had no idea.

And then a theory developed.

It's like, well, they took Ragnarok off because...

They had released the Thor Ragnarok movie.

I was going to suggest that.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I let people believe that for a long period of time.

i really wanted to believe that you know phineas netflix the ceo of netflix was there like this really pains me i want to preserve john hodgman's work for the ages and it costs us literally nothing to not press the button to delete it it could be there it's like we have unlimited resources but we have my hands are tied marvel studios is telling me i have to cancel john hodgman's ragnarok that's hilarious

and then obviously it was not true because Disney Plus came in and grabbed up all that Marvel property off of Netflix and they did not call me up going, at last, John, Ragnarok is available now.

No, Netflix will never have it on again.

Netflix, if you're listening, I don't want you.

I don't want you to put it back on.

Oh.

Anyway.

That's called reverse psychology.

I see what you're doing there.

Anyway, that was all my plug.

I just wanted to explain.

I really wanted to thank everyone on Twitter and the rest of the world who came up with that fantasy that my special wasn't wasn't on Netflix anymore because Marvel even knows who I am.

They were trying to silence you.

Yeah,

that was a very self-protective fantasy that I needed for a while.

But you know, this is a time to throw to cast off self-protective fantasies and see the real truth.

Yes.

Anyway, Trevelle, what do you think about Johan's fight with his friend Ragnarok?

You know,

I

think that

we know that everyone, you know, has flatulence.

It's just, it's just natural.

I think that it is interesting, though, because no one wants to, no one wants anyone to know that they have flatulence when they are flatulating.

I think that's the right conjugation of that word.

And so I don't know if I blame Ragnarok for denying.

You know, because, you know,

you don't want people to know that it smells like somebody, you know, or something crawled up inside of you and died when it came out.

Right.

You know, that's not comforting.

Yeah, that's not friendship, you know, an allyship.

Yeah.

And so I think it's one of those just like open secrets.

We all know that everyone farts, but like no one actually talks about it.

Yeah, if someone farts in the room, the polite thing to do is be like, quietly agree.

We all do this from time to time.

Let's not pick on the person.

Exactly.

We are no longer in fifth grade or whatever.

Exactly.

He, she, they, who dealt it?

What is it?

He dealt it.

You smelt it, dealt it.

If you smelt it, you dealt it.

Oh, right, right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Here's my feeling about that.

Who cares who smelt it?

Who cares who dealt it?

We've got bigger things to do.

Yes.

Open the window.

That's right.

Get your priorities straight, you know?

Ragnarok, however, is making a ludicrous claim that he has never farted in his life.

Yes.

And I have only ever met one other person who made that claim.

And that person made that claim to me.

And that person is my wife

with the first year of our dating.

And I would say that I believed her for 10 years before she finally said, no, I was just joking.

I believed that there could be a human who could not fart.

And that person was my wife.

And then I learned a decade later, you're dumb, John.

Of course, everyone farts.

That's what I learned, Ragnarok.

That's what I learned, Johan.

I think that it's fine to deny farting.

I think that it's fine to not bring it up, to sin, to lie by omission by not saying every time you farted, that was me.

That was me.

You don't have to do that.

But when I asked directly, did you fart?

I think a principle of human interaction should be to tell the truth as much as possible.

Yes, or at least not lie.

Right.

And definitely never farted in his life is a lie.

Very much so.

Ragnarok, this is what it comes down to.

Everyone's a farter.

Don't be a liar.

You have choice over one, and you don't have choice over the other.

I'll let you figure it out.

I love that.

Well, let's take a quick break.

More items on the docket coming up in just a minute on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

Jesse, the reviews are in.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm guest Bailiff Trevell Anderson, filling in for Jesse.

This week, we are clearing the docket.

Next case we have is from Allison.

She says, Derek and I are former partners and co-owners of two dogs.

Well, sitcom.

During our dog walks together, Derek frequently rants and complains about pointless things that he can't control.

I'd like you to order Derek to be more considerate of my experience during our walks and limit his complaining.

I am terminally ill,

but still well enough to walk through nature with my friend and dogs.

I would like to spend this time having pleasant conversations or enjoying the sounds of nature.

I think it's unfair that Derek hijacks the air so frequently and I want him to tone it down.

Wow.

Well, that is not a sitcom, Allison.

That is an incredibly hard human drama.

I'm so, so

sorry to hear that news.

And as someone, and I think many people have who have lived and supported terminally ill people in the past, it's an extremely hard experience.

And I really am grateful that

you are handling it well enough to bring Derek before this case to do me the honor of telling him to shut the F up.

Yes.

Whew!

Yes.

What else is there to say, Trevell?

There isn't really much to say.

And I do want to be clear that I think this goes beyond even Allison being terminally ill.

Of course.

And

it goes just into like friendships and relationships and communication.

And you can't take up all the air.

You can't throw your problems on other people for them to shoulder without also being willing to have them throw their problems on you.

You've got to share the space.

You've got to share the air.

And it's compounded because she is terminally ill.

You really need to shut your mouth and allow Allison to be able to enjoy the things that give her joy.

Yeah.

I mean, Derek, you shouldn't have to wait until your friend is dying to shut up for once and listen.

Exactly.

You know, because, I mean, not to be blunt, but our friends will not always be there.

And when you're there with them, you want to share that time with them.

People think they're immortal.

And, you know, there are no silver linings to what's been going on over the past two months.

But I think, and this one's for the kids too.

Kids, you're going to die.

We all are.

It's an idea to people and only an idea to people until they go through a process like Allison and her family is going through.

And it's necessary for our survival to put that idea to the back of our head.

But it's necessary for our humanity to grab that idea and look at it every once in a while and realize, I don't know what happens after this, but I know that this is limited.

Yes.

And, you know, you can't treat your time and other people's time

like time is endless.

That's the most

nice way I can put what Derek is doing.

He's just a little bone-headedness.

Doesn't get it.

Doesn't get it.

Maybe doesn't.

And you know what, to be fair to Derek, probably doesn't want to get it.

Probably doesn't want to stop talking because he knows that if he stops talking, he's going to be contemplating silence that is going to come.

But we've got to get comfortable with the silence and the thoughts that come in said silence, right?

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

As much as I'm doing it right now,

you can't avoid your problems by filling up silence with a lot of talk.

So be there for your former partner and your current dog co-parent.

Yes.

Derek.

And I know that you're hurting,

but making things feel like they always do.

And obviously

in your relationship with Alice and Derek, the tradition is that you just complain and moan all the time.

And

you want to cling to that normalcy.

But we don't get to go back to normal.

All we can do is build a new and better normal.

And that means being aware of what's going on.

But I feel for, I really, truly, truly feel for both of you.

And Allison, thank you for being a listener.

You know, when people are going through hard times, it is my hope that this podcast can be a distraction.

And I hope that this is a happy distraction for you.

And I hope that you enjoy this win.

Enjoy it so much, Allison.

Because I am really, really judging in your favor.

Lovely.

All right.

So we, next up, we have something from Kira, and she says, this is not necessarily a case, as there is not really a second party.

However, the tale is such.

A few months ago, my trash can was stolen from my sidewalk.

I reported it and was delivered a new trash can.

Last Friday, my old trash can was out at the curb.

I added the new one.

The trash was picked up.

Is this a story or a logic puzzle?

A little bit of both, maybe.

Three trash cans were on the sidewalk.

Red, white, and green.

Two were flying at 15 miles per hour.

One could never tell a lie.

The other was a vampire and could only lie.

What continent am I on?

And it's hard to cut.

Yeah.

Okay, so I added the new one.

The trash is picked up, and then I took both trash cans back to my house.

Two days later, I realized that someone had come around and taken one of the trash cans from the side of my house.

What should I do?

I'm sure I could find the trash can at someone else's place, but I suspect it would just be stolen right back.

But it doesn't seem fair that they're not paying for trash pickup by using my trash can.

Okay.

Should Kira become trash can detective

and find her trash can,

we'll figure it out.

Trevell, first of all, you live in Los Angeles, correct?

I do, yes.

Did I hear, and I don't want to triangulate where you live, but I think you mentioned on Fantai.

Yes.

You live on Fountain in Los Angeles?

I probably did mention that.

Yes, I live on Fountain in Los Angeles in the middle of Hollywood.

Fountain's one of the best avenues.

That's all I'm saying.

It's a great one.

I love Fountain.

Thank you.

What's trash collection like on Fountain?

So I live in an apartment complex, and so we have like a dumpster type situation right um however what it seems like kira is saying is that

she she pays for trash collection and they provide an actual what you call it a trash can um

in exchange for the payment got it and someone

stole hers

Because I guess by the very nature of having a trash can, it means that you're paying for trash collection.

And so the person, because now they have a trash can, doesn't have to pay, which I want to just say seems a very kind of ingenuitive, innovative approach to, you know, circumventing some of these, you know, systems at play.

It's a crime of opportunity.

You know, I'm just like, hmm, if someone who is paying for trash collection can just call up and say, hey, don't know where my trash can is.

Can you bring me another one?

Why would I not be interested in

circumventing the system in that way?

I'm not advocating for it.

I'm just saying.

No, of course.

Right.

Simply having the trash can, therefore, is physical proof that you have paid for trash collection.

So this, the thief took the trash can and got some free trash collection, but then brought it back.

And then brought it back.

Because I wonder if they were like, you know what?

What if it's a thief with a heart?

And they were like, you know what?

I don't want to prevent you from being able to take out your trash all the time.

So what if their idea was like, we'll just share it, you know?

Yeah.

I'll do it one week, you do your trash the next week, and we could just flip-flop like that.

Yeah, to me, it feels like this is either a misunderstanding.

Yeah.

Once again, due to lack of good human communication,

or it's a kink.

You know?

I mean, I don't know.

I don't know anything about the thief.

They just love messing with Kira's mind.

Maybe that is what it is.

Grab that can,

steal it for a little while, bring it back in the middle of the night with a rose on top.

Actually, I'm going to challenge you.

What if this is somebody's ruse

to get Kira to come looking for the trash can, and then they fall madly in love when they find out who's been taking the trash can.

Right.

But guess what?

Trash can thief?

Life is not a movie.

You sure?

Well, I believe we're in a simulation.

I'm definitely on that.

Okay.

Definitely feeling that.

But life is not a rom-com.

True.

Where stealing someone's stuff and returning it and manipulating a way to run into the other person

results in a beautiful romance.

Trevell, you have imagined the best possible, the most sympathetic explanation.

Yes.

Is that

Kira has a stalker

who's using the trash cans, the trash can play, to provoke some kind of meet cute.

But even that's no good.

Because in the real world,

people don't like to be manipulated into meeting you.

Have mutual respect, have conversation.

Yes.

Whether you're a neighbor who has a crush on Kira

or whether you're Kira and you just don't know what's going on, leave a note on the trash can.

Say, please don't steal this.

I don't know why you're doing this.

That's a good idea.

You know, like, I know that this is happening and I don't want it to happen.

Please don't.

And I would suggest if it's, I don't know what community that you live in that has this weird pay-for-trash collection system.

But if it's allowed, Kira, you should, you know, label your trash cans with your address.

Spray paint.

I don't know how you would do it.

Stencil.

Yeah.

People don't do enough stenciling.

This is a great opportunity to stencil.

Get a custom stencil stencil of your address and spray paint your trash cans and let garbage collection know that someone is swiping trash cans in your block and let them send out the professional trash can detectives.

You don't have to be an amateur sleuth.

We've had trash cans disputes on this podcast before.

And the answer, as always, is if you don't know what's going on with your neighbors, try talking to them.

Yeah.

Very simple.

Just talk to them.

Yeah.

Get yourself a night vision camera, put it up in front of your house, monitor the trash cans,

catch the person in the act,

confront them, fall in love, have children.

Voila.

Let's take a quick break.

When we come back, we'll hear a case about noisy neighbors.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

This week we are clearing the docket.

Here's something from Sarah.

Trevell, I just want to warn you and the listeners that I have previewed this case and it is an astonishing journey.

Oh, I'm excited.

There's a lot of spatial questions about where things are arranged and how this living situation can possibly be.

And then there is a deep, I think, an underlying moral crux to it that we're going to unpack.

This is a content warning for you, Trevell.

Incredible journey coming up.

Okay, I'm preparing myself.

Wusah, wusah, wusa.

Okay, Okay, I'm ready.

I may have oversold it, but let's see.

Okay, so Sarah says, this dispute is between my boyfriend Bart and me over my handling of a situation with my landlord.

Our apartments are connected through the building's laundry room, which is also the entrance to my apartment.

We are in a small building with one washer and dryer.

The landlord cleans this room two to three times a week for about two to four hours.

That's extensive?

Okay.

It's a lot.

It's a lot.

But it's clean.

Hey.

Yeah.

But also, their apartments are connected by the laundry room.

Yes.

Now you live in an apartment complex on Fountain Avenue in Hollywood, Los Angeles, California.

I do, yes.

Do you have a laundry room?

We do have a laundry room.

It's no one's apartment door is inside.

How many apartments lead off of that laundry room?

Zero, because that's normal.

So this is weird.

Look, nothing is normal.

This is unusual.

Let's say that.

Very much so.

So Sarah says that as my door is basically cardboard, when she does this, it's like she's almost in my living room.

During quarantine, this has become a regular nightmare for my introverted self.

She refused to reduce cleaning time or frequency when I asked.

Judge, how sassy should I get?

I say very.

Bart says no.

So, Trevell, I asked Sarah for an example of her proposed sassiness.

Some of the things that she was thinking to do to express her displeasure to the landlord.

Here they are.

One,

I'm quoting her.

I'm thinking that after a half hour or an hour of her being outside my apartment, I should start playing loud audio from my living room, such as It's a Small World on a Loop, or episodes of Sex in the City, or YouTube playlists of the vagina monologues, or Backstreet Boys, or MSNBC, or loud personal phone calls.

Essentially, this is Sonic Warfare, she's proposing.

I think my landlord would not want to stick around to hear it.

Trevell, what do you feel about this escalation policy?

Well,

you know, so one thing that's important to note is that Sarah apparently has spoken to the landlord already once before about communication.

Has happened.

Yes, it has happened.

And the landlord has said, okay, girl, who cares?

I got to keep this laundry room clean.

Two to four hours of cleaning twice a week.

Which makes very little sense to me because the laundry room at my apartment gets cleaned by a service that cleans the common areas in the apartment complex twice a week.

I have never

seen it take even an hour for them to clean our laundry room.

Yeah.

And we have two washers and two dryers.

Right.

So I'm confused.

Maybe this is a very large laundry room, room, but even so, you know, Sarah has said that her door is cardboard.

I think that's hyperbole.

I hope so.

What I'm picturing is that this is, you know, she and her boyfriend are living in the basement apartments of this building because that's usually where a laundry room is.

Yes.

This is what their budget can afford to them.

I've lived in a share of basements myself.

The best deal they could get is these apartments off the laundry room.

And therefore, I think that it's

to imagine that the laundry room itself has not

got a lot of beautiful wood paneling that requires special dusting,

applications of lemon pledge, probably doesn't have hardwood floors that need to be mopped and have special treatments, probably doesn't have shag carpeting on the walls or the ceiling.

It's probably a pretty rudimentary space.

Yes.

So I don't know what the landlord is doing down there for two to four hours twice a week.

Maybe she's she's doing what we're all doing, which is like hiding from the world.

You know what I mean?

Maybe she's listening to podcasts.

Maybe, maybe, maybe she's listening to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

While I appreciate that, particularly during these times of economic crisis,

landlords are not always the good guys, and they do not feel like they are to a lot of people who are being asked to pay full rent,

especially from real estate companies with large holdings who can absorb a hit from time to time.

Yes.

But, you know, ultimately, it's like, this, why should I rule against her?

How's her rules in this case?

You know?

You know, but the quiet, so but he's taking care of that, taking care of that laundry room so much.

I just, my thoughts is, I don't know if these even proposed forms of sassiness would be effective.

That's my thought.

Because the idea is that, you know, Sarah wants to just play things very loudly that will hopefully drive the landlord to shorten, you know, the cleaning time.

But

I'm not sure that that's going to be as effective as Sarah thinks it's going to be.

Well, reason one being that she's punishing herself, too.

Exactly.

Reason two being it's escalation.

And escalation, as we have seen in the streets of the United States,

tends to not resolve conflict.

Yes.

But lead to worse and worse outcomes.

Very much so.

I wonder if, as a possible solution, you know, Sarah says that she spoke to the landlord.

Perhaps Bart, the boyfriend, should try speaking to the landlord.

Maybe that is another form of communication that can take place before this escalation.

Maybe for whatever reason, Sarah just, you know, couldn't get through to the landlord, and Bart might be able to.

Well, we know one thing for sure, because Sarah professes it herself.

She's sassy.

Yes.

She's got sassiness on reserve.

She's got sassiness ready to deploy.

She's got sassy schemes ready to go.

And

I wonder if

she...

Look, I don't know what the nature of their communication was.

Yeah.

But if she sassed the landlord.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

When she was talking to the landlord, if she approached in an entitled, sassy way, as opposed to a, hey, I'm a human being, too, kind of way,

maybe that was its own sort of form of escalation.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And there may be

cultural and language barriers in play here.

We don't know, and I don't necessarily presume, but

you know,

there might be other reasons that the initial communication was rejected.

Yeah.

So are we suggesting that she just tries again?

I would suggest she examine.

I mean, I'm making no presumptions over her initial communication.

I'm inviting her to review it and maybe talk about it with Bart and some of her other friends and

see if they have some feedback for her.

Yeah.

And

when you are reviewing your own behavior and, you know, stress testing it with your friends, the important thing is to not be defensive.

Like, if they say, yeah, that was wrong, or you're out of line, don't be like,

and then just start playing, just start playing, it's a small world on a loop loud in their face.

That was my reactionary criticism.

Nope, not hearing it.

It's a small world after all.

Just hold up my phone in their face.

By the way, Disney, please don't sue this podcast out of existence.

You already already took away Ragnarok from me.

Please don't take my podcast away.

Yeah, so Sarah, I would talk to some people and really think about how

you communicated with your landlord and see if there might be another way to re-approach.

And if the landlord is still unresponsive,

then I think you have to buy some earplugs.

And deal with this phase in your life, this phase in your life where

you live in a basement and next to a laundry room.

Boy, must be really convenient to do the laundry, though, right?

Very much so.

Yeah, I guess, yeah.

You don't have to walk down the street to go to the laundromat.

You don't even have to put on pants, really.

You know, just

take a step, a big step outside of your door and drop the things in the washing machine and dryer.

That, yeah.

She could probably just throw the laundry out of the door into the washer if it's a top loader.

Yes.

And I bet, you know what?

I bet if she wanted to make a little game of it, she could probably get really good at tossing the quarters into the slots

from her door.

Anyway,

you live.

Sassy Sarah,

this is a phase in your life.

You will not always live in this apartment.

And someday you will tell the story about how you could throw quarters in a slot and do your laundry.

and they and it was the cleanest laundry room of all time, and no one will believe you.

And they'll be like, Two apartments went into one laundry room?

That was the entryway to the people will not know.

You'll have a fun time telling the story at minimum.

But if you, if you start, you start blasting music and escalating,

it's just going to make it worse.

It's never a good escalation, is not

never works out.

That's my feeling.

And there it is.

Trevell, do you like to do laundry or do you not like to do laundry?

Who likes to do laundry?

I will say I did once go to a place that cleans your clothes for you, does your laundry for you.

You just drop it off and you pick it back up and it's folded already.

It was entirely too expensive, but I enjoyed that.

Yeah, very,

I have only, literally only done it once, but I have it.

I did enjoy it that one time, having someone else do my laundry for me.

Hey, Jennifer Marmor,

does that tickle Elmo bust our bank?

Oh, no, we're good to go.

Do we have some more money to get Trevell's laundry, one week of pound laundry for Trevell?

Yeah.

So they don't have to do their own laundry?

Absolutely.

Just as a token.

For sure.

I mean, just as a small gesture of our appreciation for your being here, Trevell, because you're amazing.

I so appreciate it.

Yeah.

Figure out what it costs, Trevell, and we'll then mow it to you.

I'll let you know.

We're going to hodge money it to you.

It's one I guess made up.

Oh, we have a letter.

Yes.

All right.

We have something here from a listener named Jennifer who wrote in about a case regarding pies from the episode that was recorded on stage in Brooklyn.

All right.

So, yes,

there was a time when we could do live shows, Treville.

Fantai ever do a live show, live podcast?

Not yet.

You know, know, we started like a couple, like a month before quarantined.

Right.

I hope that you get a chance to do live podcasts

in the future.

I really hope you do.

I mean, obviously, because that will indicate, because you would never do it irresponsibly, and it would indicate that we can all get back together in a room together, which is something I miss a lot.

Yes.

And obviously, because you and Jarrett would be great on stage.

Oh, I thank you.

And also, it's a chance to sell that merch, lurch to the merch.

The lurch to the merch.

So we do live podcasts, or we used to do live podcasts, and they're a lot of fun.

And we did one in January here in Brooklyn, where I live.

And this was a live dispute on stage.

It was about how many pies were necessary for one Thanksgiving dinner.

The plaintiff, Karen,

her husband, Jamie, is a pie freak, loves to make pies.

I think he made something like 15 pies for one dinner.

Wow.

And I told him to cut it back back because the time that he was spending on those pies, particularly for a big holiday dinner, that's time that he could be

helping other people in other ways rather than focusing on his project.

14, 15 pies were too many.

Right.

So this person, Jennifer, wrote in, having listened to that live case.

And she writes, My daughter Hannah is an avid baker.

When she heard the pie case, she declared that she would not abide by your judgment.

My judgment, Trevell.

Hannah's a scoff law.

Oh, no.

Last fall, Hannah baked at least 11 pies, one cake, and a batch of tartlets for the Thanksgiving.

11 pies, one cake, and a batch of tartlets.

Guess how many guests they were having?

That's a lot, so I'm going to say like 30.

14.

Oh.

14.

That is, look, I refuse to do math, but that feels like almost a pie per person.

Almost, yes, that's a lot of pie.

Jennifer goes on to say, it could have been worse.

I refused to purchase the 125 eggs and 56 sticks of butter that she requested.

Wow.

Two of her friends staged an intervention and viciously cut down her baking plan before she came home for the holiday.

Even though it will apparently have no effect in our kitchen, your ruling is appreciated by the families of fanatical bakers everywhere.

I gotta say, Trevell,

this is a time when unjust laws need to be pushed and challenged.

Yes, very much so.

But my ruling

that 15 pies for one normal-sized holiday dinner is too much, that shall never be challenged.

Because it is very just.

Yeah.

That's too many pies and cake and tartlets for 14 people.

You know this.

Again, the time that you're spending on your project, particularly since baking, do you bake at at Ultraville?

I love baking, yes.

I do not bake, but I live with a baker.

So you understand.

Oh, well, the thing is, I love it because you know what I love?

What?

I mean, I don't eat cake.

I don't eat sweets.

It's just not part of my life.

So you would think baking would have no appeal to me, particularly if someone else is doing it.

But the thing is, I just love

surfaces coated in flour.

Love it.

Love it.

I love cleaning the kitchen in the morning

after making everyone breakfast.

Yes.

And then start thinking about what I'm going to make for dinner

in my nice clean kitchen that I cleaned after cooking.

And then turn away for two seconds and all of a sudden find

a grown woman who lives in our house

is suddenly in the midst of a, I don't know, I don't even know what, what's a kind of cake?

Like a pound cake.

A pound cake?

That one's okay, though.

I like, I like pound cake because it's basically all butter.

Oh, so you like butter?

Yeah, well, yeah.

I mean, look, when, when Jennifer said she refused, like, I don't want 11 pies and one cake, et cetera, et cetera.

But when she said that it was going to take 125 eggs and 56 sticks of butter, the first thing I did was picture my refrigerator full of 125 eggs and 56 sticks of butter, and I got really happy.

I'm talking about a kink.

Yes.

Yes.

Pack my fridge with eggs and butter.

That sounds like a saying.

Well, pack my fridge with eggs and butter.

Could not be happier to see you.

That's actually really amazing.

Well, the point was, I don't like counters covered in flour.

It really,

especially when I just got it clean.

Baking is messy.

It's involved.

Hannah, when you go home for Thanksgiving, you may notice there are other people in the kitchen making other foods.

As much as I love the eggs and butter in your fridge, cut it in half.

And use that extra time to help out your mom, Jennifer.

She sent in some photos of a dessert spread from Thanksgiving.

It is a beautiful spread.

I'm not going to lie.

Yeah, we're going to put this photo up on the Judge John Hodgman Instagram page and also our show page at maximumfund.org.

So this is Hannah's spread.

And it looks like one, two, three.

Look, it's beautiful.

There's an incredible pumpkin cake in the shape of a pumpkin.

Yeah, that's actually really amazing.

So, I guess we have to give Hannah some credit for the innovativeness and the ingenuity and the creativity.

Yeah, she's great.

And there are the tartlets up there on top of the cooler.

You see them on that wall?

Oh, yes, I do.

Yeah, great tartlets.

And then, oh, there's a whole other field of pies behind me.

Oh, wait, we didn't even see the other pies.

Yes, dude.

Y'all, there's like, I guess, 11 pies

in this picture.

I mean, pack my fridge with eggs and butter.

This is too much.

Beautiful.

And they each look like a different pie, too, like a different flavor, a different set of.

That's just too much.

It's a great looking spread.

Cut it in half.

All right.

I think the docket is clear.

Is that correct, Trevell?

It is very much so clear, yes.

All right.

That is it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Thank you, Trevell, for joining us again on the show, Trevelle.

You're on Twitter at Trevelle Anderson.

That's T-R-E-V-E-L-L

Anderson, spelled in the common way.

All one word,

no underscore, by the way, and good for you.

You know what I mean?

No offense to David Rees, but that first name, underscore, last name looks like garbage.

Avoid that.

If you haven't listened to their podcast, Fanta, yet, get on it for all the reasons.

It's every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you listen to podcasts.

I'm on Twitter, of course, at Hodgman, and I'm on Instagram personally at JohnHodgman.

But make sure to hashtag your tweets and your Instas and all your socials, hashtag JJHO, and follow the show on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

And check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode at maximumfund.reddit.com.

Finally, if that's not enough interaction for you, submit your cases.

We need cases all the time.

Submit them to maximumfund.org/slash JJ Ho.

If you like filling out forms, that's where you go.

If you like composing an email, just send one to me at hodgman at maximumfun.org.

That's all for now.

We will not see you next time.

How does this keep happening?

This is a podcast.

I can't see you, listener.

But I will enjoy talking to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thanks, Trevell.

Thank you.

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