Judge of Sandwich, Massachusetts

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm summertime,

less fun time.

Guest bailiff, Monty Velmonte, filling in for the actual bailiff, Jesse Thorne.

We are in chambers this week to clear the docket.

And now,

the Webby Award-winning host of the Judge John Hodgman podcast, Judge John Hodgman.

What a thrill it was, Judge John Hodgman, when you included me in that tweet to tell me that this podcast had won a Webby, and then I go online and watch the Zoom Webby Awards, and there is none other than Monica Lewinsky giving you the award.

Yeah, it was, it was really, it was fantastic.

Yeah, Monty, thank you.

That I did not predict.

I did not know that Monica Lewinsky would be.

virtually presenting me with the Webby Award, but the name of the show is Judge John Hodgman.

But as you know, Monty, there are a lot of people on Team Judge John Hodgman.

Obviously, Bailiff Jesse Thornton can't be with us today.

Obviously, you, Monty Belmonte, and Gene Gray, and all the other great guest bailiffs over time.

Of course, Jennifer Marmor.

I can see you guys.

We're in this new

era where, yeah, where we're podcasting and we can see each other.

We could have been doing this the whole time.

I know.

But I see, Monty, you're up there in Northampton, Massachusetts.

Well, Turner's Falls, right?

Right.

It reminds me of when we would do this in the studios of WRSI.

That's right.

And we could see each other, and that was really fun.

And you're sporting, I noticed, your Wagon Wheel t-shirt, the Wagon Wheel being a

great drive-in restaurant, an ice cream place up there in Gill, Massachusetts.

How's the Wagon Wheel doing, Monty?

Doing takeout.

Ice cream.

Takeout?

Yep.

They're figuring out how to do it as safely as they can.

They weren't one of the first adopters of the new model of eating out, but they have made that transition and it's going great, as far as I know.

It's too crowded for me to go there most of the time, so I guess that's a good sign.

And you're still brought, first of all, they make a very good black bean burger.

I'll tell you that.

And they make their excellent homemade ice cream.

Yeah, that's right.

And by the way, how are things up there at WRSI, The River, 93.9 The River in Northampton?

Are you still spinning the wheels of steel every morning, given the news?

I am.

And it has become this strange dystopian future that I've read so much about

in years previous, where I continue to wake up at 2 o'clock in the morning, continue to go in and do my show.

And now people's listening habits have changed.

And also people have

really made it well known how important having this kind of communal campfire of a radio, how important that is to them in a time like this.

And I've adapted to that and changed the way that I do the show.

I'm doing a lot more call-in slash request type stuff.

I develop these Korn themes like every day of the week to help remind us what day of the week it is.

That's one of the hard ones.

So it's like Michigas Monday, where I play like a lot of weird al stuff.

And then it's like Tear It Up Tuesday, a punk and soul dance party.

And then like it goes on from there where

it's a gravitational force that I think people are used to.

And usually, our

slogan is different as good, but we've kind of jokingly said same is good in the midst of all this, where it's like it gives people this sense of familiarity and community when they can't have that in the same way that they've been experiencing it previously.

You don't do weekends, right?

You're only Monday through Friday.

Only when I have to, yeah.

So you can't do

Ska Tur Day.

Well, the all-day Ska programming.

If you want to do it with me on one of these days in the stay-at-home order, John Hodgman, I would do Scott or Day with you.

As somebody who went to go see the Mighty Mighty Boss Stones at every opportunity I could at an under-18 show when I was a kid, I, yeah, let's do it.

I'm afraid 24 hours of Ska would push even Northampton over the edge.

Probably.

And there's Jennifer Marmor, super producer Jennifer Marmor up top, silent as always.

Or are you hooked up to your mic?

I can't remember now.

She's muted.

Nope, silent.

Purely muted.

You're wearing a lovely linen shirt, you mentioned.

And speaking of the news, of course,

we recorded this a week ago.

This is coming out June 10th, 2020.

And of course, a week ago, we were in the midst of now several nights of coast-to-coast

protests against police violence, specifically against people of color, specifically black people in this country and around the world.

And it's upsetting.

And we're not going to dwell on it dramatically in this episode.

And who knows what the situation will look like when you actually hear the sound of our voices.

But

I have been sharing a couple of links that you might find useful.

And we'll have links for them in the show page, maximumfund.org, and on the Judge John Hodgman Instagram.

One is I created a custom bit link for it.

I didn't make it up.

It's bit.ly slash get your friends.

All capital letters, get your friends.

And that's just a link to a Rolling Stone compilation of links to various.

It's a really,

I just happened to find in a Rolling Stone, a really great collection of links to various bail funds,

various local protester support organizations,

various policing reform organizations, including Reclaim the Block in

Minneapolis.

And there are places that you can donate money to if you have the means to do so.

And they also offer you lots of opportunities to

support those organizations in other ways.

It's important that we all be part of this struggle.

one way or the other.

And as well, another link that I've been handing out is a link to on Medium that came out a couple of years ago,

75 Things White People Can Do for Racial Justice.

This was put up on Medium by Corinne Schutak.

And it's an incredibly thoughtful list about all sorts of, if you are a non-non-white person, let's say a white person,

and you want to support and get engaged and make anti-racism part of your life.

Lots and lots of concrete ideas of how, of books you can read, activism that you can train in, and organizations you can reach out to.

And it's a lot of valuable stuff.

So

that said, I just wanted to put that out there before we move and settle some really petty, silly disputes.

Because, like all of us, we deserve from time to time just to wear.

What are you wearing, Jennifer Armor?

Just a simple linen top for yourself?

Yeah, we all need to wear a simple linen top for ourselves sometimes.

Take a little break and wrap our minds around

the bad ideas of weird dads and what things are sandwiches and what aren't sandwiches.

And in this episode, truly one of the most puzzling conundrums about playing the game of 20 questions that I've ever come across.

So summertime, guest bailiff Monty Belmonte,

why don't you start us off?

Speaking of sandwiches, which I think you are now the arbiter of everything sandwich-oriented, here's something from Katie Manny.

I wish that if only that were true.

You're the mayor of Sandwich, Massachusetts, which is not hot dog, Massachusetts.

No, I am not.

I am not.

I'm not the mayor.

I'm not even the select person.

You're the judge of Sandwich, Massachusetts?

Yeah, there is a town in Massachusetts called Sandwich.

I forgot that.

No,

I wish I could get the BLT to the city in Sandwich, Massachusetts, but I am not so honored.

It is still the debate over the sandwichness of hot dogs continues, even though I fully settled it on this podcast years ago.

Bit.ly slash

JJ

Hot Dog.

J-J-H-O-T-D-O-G, all capital letters, if you want to hear my final ruling on why a hot dog is not a sandwich.

But I do love sandwiches, and I love thinking about it and talking about them.

So tell me, what's the dispute?

This comes from Katie Mae.

She has a dispute with her husband about sandwich making.

And she says, one of us thinks mayo and lettuce go on the sandwich before grilling.

The other thinks hot mayo and wilted lettuce are an affront to all that is holy.

Please help.

And you have asked for clarification on what type of sandwiches are in question.

And Katie Mae said,

I'm a vegetarian, so for me, it's cheese and veggies.

For him, it sometimes includes sliced ham or turkey.

So I also dug a little deeper into this question with Katie Mae and determined that the grilling they're talking about, Monty, for your clarification, because I want your take on this.

Okay.

I believe it is a panini press.

Not grilling.

Well, in New England, a grilled cheese is not something that's been pressed in a panini.

Oh, yeah.

It's been something that's been buttered on both sides and

cooked in a skillet.

You know what I mean?

Right.

But this is a panini press situation.

And

would you put mayonnaise

on a panini that you are grilling?

And would you put lettuce on a panini you are grilling?

And while I can see you and I can see the utter disdain on your face, I will remind you: this is an audio-only court.

Audio-only court.

Absolutely not.

I am a huge proponent of mayonnaise.

You want to put mayonnaise on your cereal.

I'm going to back you on that.

We're two white guys from New England, of course.

Of course.

We are mayonnaise.

We are the living embodiment.

You are what you eat.

And we are mayonnaise.

Maybe I am Hellmans.

Because you reach for the Hellmans, you reach for the best.

There's very little distinction from my midsection right now

and what it looks like when you open a fresh jar of Hellmans, that little pasty white swirl of fresh mayonnaise.

If you could take the mayonnaise jar and burn a very small portion of the back of it, that's how I look right now because I went and sat by the Connecticut River over the weekend.

So I'm like burned mayonnaise.

You're just saying mayonnaise burns red like your skin?

No, it doesn't.

But, you know, no analogy you can take so far.

At any rate.

All right.

You love mayonnaise.

Put mayonnaise on things, yes.

Not before grilling, no.

Right.

There shouldn't.

shouldn't.

So if you're making a panini, mayonnaise should not never be a part of it.

Right.

I question whether you should call it that grilling in the first place.

Like, I give you grilled cheese, but if you told me you were going to make a grilled like turkey sandwich, immediately I would think, like, oh, you're going to put it on an open flame on

like a

back.

I don't know.

You're making up a new thing.

All right.

Nobody puts it

on.

Putting it on a grill?

No.

I would never do that, Mom.

No, I wouldn't.

But I do grill a lot.

Like, I grill everything on an actual flame grill in my backyard.

And then, yet, at the same time, my children make grilled cheeses, and I never do that.

Just as east of the Mississippi,

Hellman's mayonnaise is called Hellman's Mayonnaise, and west of the Mississippi, it is called Best Foods.

Oh.

Jennifer Marmor nodding.

In solemn assent.

Nice to know that.

So there is still regionalism within this country.

So some people will say grilled cheese, when others would say toasted cheese for something that is cooked in a skillet.

And I am perfectly willing to allow

Katie Mae and her husband to call panini grilling grilling.

Okay.

Panini pressing grilling.

Just so long as they do not call grilling barbecue.

In which case, get off my podcast.

Absolutely.

Okay,

so

you say no.

Katie Mae is right, husband is wrong.

Yes, but if you want to put mayonnaise on it after the fact, I'm not going to stand in your way.

But how are you going to do that if you're grilling cheese into the panini?

I mean, you love mayonnaise so much that you want to put it on the top of the grilled panini.

Right.

Again, I'm not going to stand in your way.

All right, so here's a solution.

And again,

I'm not making a ruling yet.

Okay.

But if you wish Katie Mae's husband, if you want to follow the Monte Belmonte way and you are making a sliced ham or turkey panini and you're adding cheese to it, because why wouldn't you if you're grill if you're putting anything in a panini?

Come on.

You don't even need to grill it if you're not putting cheese on it.

Right.

But you have to keep one of the sides of the panini uncheesed so that it so that you can take off that bread and add fresh, cool

Monte Belmonte style cold mayonnaise.

What about the this?

The hot, hot, and the cool, cool.

What if you grill the whole sandwich both sides?

Again, I use grilling loosely here.

And then you have, you've made your own fake aioli, which means

mayonnaise that you bought at a store and truffled olive oil that you bought at a store.

And then you dip the grilled sandwich into a bowl of the cold

mayonnaise and truffled aioli.

And then you bite it.

And then maybe

I want that sandwich.

How about this?

This is called the John Hodgman special.

How about you make a ham and cheese sandwich,

get a bowl of cold mayonnaise, throw the sandwich away, and just get a spoon and eat that mayonnaise?

I think just a lot of people just threw up.

Nope, not this person, because you are what you eat.

I have to send a message to

my wife because there was a panini, there was a legit panini that we had in a foreign country that blew our minds.

And I want to know whether it had mayonnaise on it or not.

What was in that panini we liked so much?

Did it have mayonnaise?

I'll let you know what was in that.

It's a little tease.

A little podcast tease.

Stay tuned.

If you want to know what was in the panini, you'll have to listen to the end of the podcast.

And also, have you tried this timeshare in the Cape of Cod?

We don't have, we're not doing any timeshare ads.

Okay.

I don't know what's going on there, WRSI.

No time share.

No time share.

We're really scrapping the bottom of the battlefield.

Here's what I'm going to say.

Here's what I'm going to say, Monty.

Okay.

I agree with you.

99.99999%.

Okay.

But

you have overlooked

one of the greatest

sandwiches in the world that specifically involves hot mayonnaise.

Tuna Melt.

Damn.

Tuna melt.

Can I say that?

Yeah, you can say damn.

Okay.

These are challenging times.

We need to be able to express ourselves.

Damn, you're right.

Hot

tuna.

Hot tuna is a band.

It's also an ingredient in a tuna melt.

And how does it get hot?

You grill it.

And there's mayonnaise in there, man.

There's mayonnaise in that tuna.

Do you like a tuna melt?

Or what you would call a tuna melt?

Tuna melt?

I do.

Maybe your ruling should say that, like, if they would like to hot grill mayonnaise with turkey, that they have to then start a commensurate band with the same name.

So, like, we're the new band, Hot Turkey.

Hot Turkey?

Yeah, no.

I don't want to hear Katie May's and her husband's band Hot Turkey.

I just want them to enjoy themselves.

You're right.

Yeah,

I have to say

that while I agree with Katie Mae

that grilling either in a panini or

skillet

environment

lettuce in a sandwich is gross.

Yeah.

I would admit mayonnaise on a grilled sandwich.

Okay.

Seems fair.

The other day I grilled a sandwich, one of the classic grilled sandwiches.

or what we say pressed sandwiches.

I did a

Kubano sandwich,

which is

the classic South Florida sandwich of

roast pork, ham, Swiss cheese, mustard, pickles.

And I pressed that, because I don't have a sandwich press.

I put it in a skillet, and I put a piece of parchment paper on top, and I slammed a cast iron pan on top of that, and I put a kettle full of water on it.

I love it.

And it worked really well.

And you know what I also did?

I added mayonnaise.

When it was grilling.

Yeah.

Wow.

And

you know what?

Worked.

Worked good.

I don't mind hot mayonnaise.

I get you.

If it's not for you, Katie Mae, that's fine.

But

I think the tuna melt invalidates your argument that it is never allowable.

One more thing before we move on with regard to the grilling of sandwiches, which during pandemic stay at home, I have been doing a lot of, obviously, and thinking a lot about sandwiches.

Do you know the trick, Monty, of making a grilled cheese with mayonnaise instead of butter?

No.

Jennifer Marmor is nodding her head.

Well, well, well.

Knowingly.

My children grill a lot of cheeses, so

eager to hear this.

I think I picked this up from Ken Reed, also a Massachusettsian, host of the TV Guidance Counselor podcast.

But there is a tradition, and perhaps it's a New England one, or perhaps he picked it up just from the internet,

of instead of taking your bread and putting butter on the exterior of the bread and then grilling it with your cheese in a pan, use mayonnaise instead.

And it browns

really well.

And it tastes, it does not taste mayonnaise-y.

It tastes super crispy.

Wow.

When you get that out, so instead of butter, you just put mayonnaise in the pan.

Yeah, it seems very easy, it seems dangerous for somebody who hasn't tried it.

No, but I'm willing to take that risk.

You want to heat up the pan for a while at low heat,

and then I know normally you would put a big lob of butter in there and it would sizzle around.

You know how butter is going to react in there.

What's going to happen if I put mayonnaise in here?

Am I going to set the house on fire?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Monty, calm down.

Heat up your thing, heat up your pan, okay, low, Low to medium heat.

Get it reasonably hot.

It's clean.

Take your piece of bread, you mayonnaise one side of it, put it mayonnaise side down in the pan, put your cheese on that bread, mayonnaise another slice of bread, put that mayonnaise size up,

and walk away,

and then come back, flip it.

You're done.

Oh, one last thing.

Can this podcast be five hours long and only about mayonnaise, Jennifer?

Yes.

I learned this, speaking of Team Judge John Hodgman, from expert witness Kenji Lopez-Alt, the great food writer, the author of Food Lab.

He's got a YouTube channel.

He's got recipes all over the place.

This is the guy who invented the concept of the reverse sear steak.

You know what that is, Monty?

No, but this is a cooking podcast now, so I'm all ears.

No, you have to go back and listen to Judge John Hodgkin verdict number 465: licorice adjacent flavor.

That's a good one.

Kenji Lopez-Alt,

really, really smart, science-based food writer, but not like wonky science, not pure science.

Like he has fun, he mixes things up.

And speaking of mixing things up,

and speaking of mayonnaise and speaking of hot,

Kenji Lopez-Alt has a recipe for chicken breasts marinated in chimichurri, which is a parsley,

garlic, onion, olive oil, sort of pesto that is used as a steak seasoning in Argentina, and mayonnaise.

That's it.

Go find this recipe because it has changed my life.

Is it on the podcast?

No, that's not on that podcast, but it's on the internet.

I discovered it since we recorded.

Kenji Lopez held that back from me.

Damn him.

Which I consider to be a crime.

You pound your chicken breast into the quarter-inch even thickness.

You get your chimichurri, you whip it up,

then you take like a quarter cup of mayonnaise, whip that into it, and then you just let it sit in that mayonnaise-y, garlick-y, parsley marinade for like up to an hour or a day.

And then you just pull it out of there, you don't do anything, you just throw that right on the grill.

You know, whatever,

three, three, five minutes total, depending on the thickness, maybe six.

I've never had a better food, almost, pretty much.

And you know what it's like all thanks to?

Mayonnaise.

If you don't like mayonnaise, don't send me letters.

What did I say?

Okay, so Katie Mae, hot mayonnaise, okay.

Hot lettuce, no good.

Maddie says, my husband Nick and I just bought a house next door to a church with a public Wi-Fi network.

Nick wants to use the church's network instead of purchasing our own Wi-Fi.

I'll also add we've been splitting the cost of Wi-Fi with various neighbors for almost seven years so we have never owned our own Wi-Fi.

I believe that what Nick wants to do is stealing.

It's time for us to be adults and have our own network.

I ask that you issue an injunction against Nick's use of the public church Wi-Fi.

Monty, I just want you and the listeners to know that I have received the information back from my wife with regard to the panino that we had.

Panino, good use of Italian.

That's

because it's one of, it's one panino, it's many panini, one graffito, many graffiti,

and it was one of the greatest sandwiches I ever had in my life.

And I will reveal the details after the break.

But first,

here's what I have to say to Maddie.

Uh, Monty, what do you think?

I think

given a pandemic, you can steal the Wi-Fi until a pandemic pandemic is over.

And then you need to get back to real life and be a grown-up.

Right now,

we are in like beyond Thunderdome land right now.

So it's like every person for themselves and also Tina Turner.

No, no, Monty, no.

Okay, no.

So that's why I'm the bailiff.

It's not every person for themselves.

We have to be together on this.

Oh, yeah, right.

We're all in this together.

Even

this isn't barter town.

Okay.

All right.

You know, this is like when you're...

Two men enter, one man leaves.

No, it's not.

That's not it.

It's an operating beyond the Thunderdome principles this whole time.

What has been happening in Northampton?

No wonder you're wearing that suit of armor made of chicken bones

and a weird doll's mask.

Have you become a lawless raider up there in Northampton?

Yes.

It's not the one I remembered.

You know, these are difficult times.

It's all about doing our best best practices, wearing our masks, keeping our distance, following the science news, learning about anti-racism, supporting each other.

It's not about

getting as much free Wi-Fi as you can, Monty.

But here's the thing: nobody's going to church right now.

So when people start going back to the church,

then yes, you need to get your own Wi-Fi.

But right now.

See,

look, you're counting on a return to normalcy of some kind.

What I'm saying is, we need to forge a new, better normal together based on principles.

All right.

Now, if you want to eat

three tuna melts a day with mayo, that's your business, self-care.

And I understand your argument that no one's at that church right now.

The Wi-Fi is just sitting there.

It's pooling.

It's pooling around the pews.

You want more than they could use.

Yeah.

And maybe the church doesn't mind if you use that Wi-Fi.

It's church.

Right.

But there's a very easy way to find out, and that's to ask

the church.

Not hack the church?

Ask.

Don't hack the church.

Ask the church.

The password is Jesus because I read a bumper sticker that says Jesus is the answer.

So if you're looking for the Wi-Fi password,

Jesus is the answer.

No,

here's the thing:

Maddie and Nick.

Maddie knows what's right.

This is the parable of the soda fountain.

This has come up on Judge John Hodgman

many a time, and it shall come up many a time again.

It is one of the great teaching tools in the liturgy of the Church of Judge John Hodgman.

Monty.

Two pilgrims.

Go.

I mean, this is happening in olden times, right?

Because people could go to restaurants then.

Right.

Two pilgrims go to an In-N-Out burger in California.

There is a soda fountain there offering lo these many sodas.

And then there is a button for water, and then there is a button for seltzer.

Is it acceptable

to fill up your cup with seltzer or water

without paying for it?

Because after all, saith one pilgrim,

the cost

incurred by the in-and-out is the soda syrup, your doctor's pepper, your cokes and cherries, and all of the rest.

And

lo, Judge John Hodgman saith unto the pilgrim,

maybe

it depends.

Just ask them.

Don't ask me.

I don't run an in-and-out.

There are more costs associated than you think of

in a soda fountain than just the cost of the syrup.

There is electricity.

There is maintenance, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And yeah, it's just water or just seltzer water.

And maybe they're like, go for it.

Maybe they're like, here's a cup for you to filleth and slaketh your thirst.

from my soda fountain with just plain seltzer if you wish for I am a good Samaritan.

Or maybe they will say, no, but you can buy a cup for a dollar and have as many free ruffles as you want, or whatever.

The lesson of the parable of the soda fountain, Monty,

is that there is no reason to talk yourself into taking something

that you want for free

when

the proper thing to do is to simply ask.

There is no reason to come up with a system or a scheme or an explanation as to why it is okay to take a thing for free

when the avenue is available to you to simply ask and be told yes or no, especially if the answer is probably yes.

It's church.

You'd probably say fine.

Being a grown-up, Maddie, I appreciate that you're wanting to grow up, Maddie, but being a grown-up does not mean

buying your own Wi-Fi.

A lot of people try to define grown-upness by the fact that they can buy stuff.

Like, I'm a grown-up because I bought a car.

No, being a grown-up means not being a sneak.

Not trying to cheat the system

means going up to the people in your world and say, may I have this for free?

And if they say, no, no, it's mine, then you go, I get it.

No problem.

Thought I'd ask.

We're trying to have a civilization here.

We're trying.

We're trying really hard.

And part of this time

is having conversations that are not always comfortable face-to-face with our neighbors.

And to a lot of people, including me, having a simple face-to-face conversation such as, may I steal Wi-Fi here, can feel a little like

hard to do.

But I'm telling you, the more you go up to the people in your world, no matter who they are, no matter what they look like, no matter what their background is,

and just have the conversation you need to have.

Even if it does not end with the result that you want,

even if they tell you things that are hard for you to hear, you grow as a person from having direct contact with other people

at a safe distance.

That's the other complicating factor.

Don't go the way

of Northampton.

Don't fall into a dystopian Thunderdome Fury Road type situation like Northampton, Massachusetts.

Now let's move on, Monty, because I know you got you're you're taking a run down the Fury Roads to the gas farm later.

So

we don't need another hero.

Let's take a quick break.

More items on the docket coming up in just a minute on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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And whether it's

griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware, I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be getting back to my beloved made-in entree bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable because they sell it directly to you.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made-in,

made-in.

For full details, visit madeincookwear.com.

That's m-a-d-e-i-n cookware.com.

Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

This week, we're clearing the docket, and Leslie says, my partner spends a lot of time listening to comedy podcasts like yours, and I will add the Webby Award-winning Judge John Hodgman podcast, and laughing hysterically.

While it's a minor annoyance at home, it's become a point of debate in public.

I've shushed his cackling on every form of transportation imaginable.

Cross-country flights, overnight bus rides in foreign countries, quiet train cars.

The list goes on.

Am I right that he needs to clam up and stop embarrassing me?

Or is this acceptable behavior that I just happen to find annoying?

How do you tell your loving partner of six years that his face is cute, but not when hyena sounds come out of it?

I'm seeking an injunction to end this behavior for good and save hundreds of innocent people from disruptive giggles.

Is he laughing like that, do you think?

Is that a villain laugh?

I imagine he's laughing like me, and I have a Wicked Witch of the West laugh.

Really?

There are people that can recognize me no matter what the circumstances because they hear this

kind of cackle.

And that's like

my legitimate laugh.

And there's another person that I know that has a very similar laugh.

And so we have actually been confused in public spheres because our cackles are so similar.

I don't like that, Monty.

That brought me right back to when Wizard of Oz was on television once a year.

Stop it.

He goes, what are you going to do?

I feel like Monty's, I can see you, but I still, in my mind's eye, I'm picturing you on top of a thatched hut throwing fireballs at me, trying to set me on fire like a scarecrow.

I don't like that.

Scary.

Which is is more.

I'm going to answer Leslie's question in a second because we actually do have a recording of her partner's laugh.

I think will make a lot of difference.

Okay.

But when it comes to traumatic childhood movies, which is worse?

Wizard of Oz or Watership Down?

The Wiz or the Watt?

I know for you, it's Watership Down because literally anytime I see a picture from Watership Down on social media, I know it is John Hodgman that is posting.

I'm talking about the animated film from 1979 or so.

Not the Netflix remake, which I have not seen because it seems unnecessary.

But if people like it, let me know.

If you're of an age to know what movies I'm talking about,

tell us in the Reddit, the Judge John Hodgman Reddit discussion for this episode, which was more traumatic for you as a child of the 70s and 80s?

Wizard of Oz

Watership Down or the mini-series I Claudius all right now oh

I thought you loved that one I just assumed because I do I do I do but but if you're a kid who accidentally watches it right it's it's got some heavy stuff it's got some it's intense intense scenes

all right I don't want you ever to laugh that way at me ever again, Monty.

But can I stop you from laughing that way?

That's the crux of this issue.

I don't like it,

but do I, even if I were your partner, your romantic partner in life, your husband, which would be a lovely outcome to an alternate timeline.

Absolutely.

Would I have the right

to say that that laugh,

because it scares me so much, causes me damages that you must not do it?

Is it that disruptive?

Because that's really what this comes down to.

In many ways, you know, Leslie sent this in, in, obviously, when travel was still a possibility.

When ideas like,

you know, cross-country flights and overnight bus rides in foreign countries and quiet train cars.

Boy, boy, oh, boy.

Who's Leslie?

Urcule Poirot?

Planes, trains, and automobiles, solving.

Anyway,

everywhere, everywhere they go together.

Leslie's partner laughs, but that's all done now.

However, we are working together, face-to-face, person-to-person, safely, to build a new and better normal.

And will

Leslie's partners laugh be part of that new normal?

Let's take a listen.

And we'll listen to it one more time.

Now see that laugh does not scare or disturb me.

It's loud.

I'll give it that.

But what I find the laugh is not the problem.

It's the weird undermutter.

Did you hear that?

I'll do my imitation of Leslie's partner.

It was the non-laughing but weird kind of like

talking to yourself kind of thing that gave it a kind of joker style menace.

Monty,

if you were on, I don't know, a cross-country flight, an overnight bus ride in a foreign country, or a quiet train car,

and Leslie's partner was over there with earbuds in, making that noise, how would you feel?

I didn't notice the kind of undermurmur, but that now is all of a sudden disturbing to me.

And so the initial outburst of laughing to me seemed very joyful, but you gave it a dark twist.

And now I can't unhear

that under murmur where

they seem like they have reeled in the legitimate expression of joy.

So

I've poisoned the well of your judgment

with my insight, obviously.

So the laugh itself, I'm fine with.

You're fine.

You would be fine if you were in a quiet train car or an overnight bus in a foreign country with a guy listening to even the Judge John Hodgen podcast going,

Like, like, like Christopher Lloyd and who framed Roger Rabbit at the end?

Yeah.

No, actually, no.

Would not be cool.

That would be cool.

In normal circumstances, like, that's like you're at home, you're on a car ride, all of that.

I think, yes, let that bubble up and express itself in the way that it will in your body, but you do need to know your surroundings.

So, even when I'm like in bed watching something funny and and my wife is sleeping next to me and I know she's sleeping, you gotta reel that in.

You gotta try.

Yeah.

Not always successful.

Perfectly honest.

We have had partners who had difficulty with their partners' sneezes, which you think are an involuntary noise, but you can rein in your sneeze in certain public situations.

I can't, actually.

My children have deemed my sneeze the Hamilton sneeze because it sounds like I'm saying the issue.

Like when he says the issue on the table, that is how I sneeze every time, totally without

thinking about it.

Look,

I could stifle it, but I might blow my eardrums out.

They're not going to blow your eardrums out.

I might.

You don't have to laugh like the Wicked Witch of the West.

Fuck you.

But I love you and I allow you to do it.

Thank you.

When you're around friends, Leslie's partner, including Leslie, who frankly,

you know,

you're presumably your partner's best friend,

you laugh, laugh the way you want.

I'm never going to try to stifle laughter, especially not in this time.

But when you're in public,

laughing uproariously, especially with a creepy undermutter,

in a closed cabin of a cross-country flight, overnight bus in a foreign country or quiet train car is not only impolite, but bear in mind, Droplet City.

Oh, yeah.

Listen to something else.

Listen to the fifth season by N.K.

Jemison.

Listen to

a novel.

Listen to a podcast.

Listen to So You Want to Talk About Race by Ijioma Oluho.

Or listen to Minority Corner on Maximum Fun.

That's funny, though.

That's funny.

Can I make a recommendation?

Take some time then to think and think and not laugh so much.

What?

Yeah, you can make a recommendation.

There's a book called This Book is Anti-Racist, 20 Lessons on How to Wake Up, Take Action, and Do the Work by Tiffany Jewell, who happens to live in Northampton, Massachusetts.

And I think it might be an excellent addition to the not laughing out loud and really taking some important self-assessment in these times when we need to be together apart.

That sounds appropriately unhilarious.

Right.

Or, you know, listen to something just

fun and low-key, but not comedic.

Unless you can get that laugh under control, Leslie's partner.

You have an obligation to people in closed spaces around you who are not Leslie and your close friends.

Do not scare them the way that Monty scared me.

Sorry.

All right, let's move on.

Let's take a quick break, and when we come back, we'll hear a case about the game 20 questions.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

This week, we're clearing the docket.

Here's something from Josh.

Okay, here it comes.

This is payoff number one of tease number one.

Top of the show, I teased a conundrum regarding 20 questions.

At the end of the first third of the show, I teased the best panino I ever had.

Here comes payoff one.

Stand by for payoff two.

Go ahead.

Anytime you want to do a show on any of our radio stations in Northampton, Judge John Hodgman, you are more than welcome.

Here is something from Josh.

Please call Call me Chef Tees of Sandwich, Massachusetts.

Cooking up them teases.

There's a little bit of the cackle right there.

I know, I got you.

It's fine.

But see, you got it under control.

Right.

You're professional.

I reeled it in.

I'm seeking the judge's wisdom on a semantic.

You wouldn't laugh that way on the radio.

Oh, I do it all the time.

I cry on the radio.

I'm so unprofessional.

Well,

I know you cry, but you do the wicked witch laugh on the radio?

Sometimes.

Yeah, you reel it in.

You let it go for the podcast.

You reel it in for the radio.

I know you, Monty Belmonty.

You're professional.

I do my best to be professional, but I don't always succeed.

All right, let's hear, let's hear from Josh.

I apologize.

I'm seeking the judge's wisdom on a semantic issue.

My wife and I were playing 20 questions.

My answer was Amazon River.

And my wife asked me, is it on land?

And I answered, yes.

But that didn't go over very well.

How should I have answered?

I love this question so much.

There it is again.

Yeah, there it is.

That's good.

That was good.

That wasn't the same as the one that really scared me where

your whole face turned green, too.

That was weird.

Yeah, I know.

So he was playing with his wife.

20 questions.

The answer that he had prepped in his mind was the Amazon River.

And she's asking, like, is it a famous person?

No, obviously.

Is it a fictional character?

No, obviously.

Is it on land?

And then, according to my reading of his letter, he had a little question mark after yes.

So

I feel like she said, is it on land?

And he said, yes.

Right.

Which, frankly, I think in 20 questions is a fairly fair, that is to say, playable clue that the answer is not, is a little tricky.

And that gives information to the questioner.

Yeah.

So I think that he played fair, right?

If he said, yes.

Yes.

Because then

Josh's wife can start like, well, wait a minute.

How can it sort of be on land?

And then might get to the point where it's like, oh, is it a body of water?

Right?

Yes.

And then you're off to the races.

Then all you have to do is name every river in the world and you're done.

Right.

And luckily, there are only 10 of them.

So

is going to be the first one that you're going to guess and probably try to make an order from in

an inebriated late-night

decision.

So anyway, but that still doesn't settle the question.

Is it on land?

If you were going to answer that question without the question mark, what would you say?

Is it on land?

I have no idea how to answer this question, which is kind of why I was.

Is the Amazon River on

land?

I think the only actual answer is the answer that he probably gave in his testimony, which is yes?

Like,

Jennifer Marmor, I can see you, but you can't speak.

Using only body language is the

she's yes.

She put her hands, palms up in

the international

symbol for either

yes or I really don't care.

Can we move on?

Well, now she's drawing her finger across her throat.

Kill this segment.

No, she's not doing that.

One of my favorite 20-question

answers for other people is 20 questions.

Yes.

So, like, you have to guess that what I'm thinking of is 20 questions.

And that causes all sorts of sorts of conundrums like this, which is part of the reason I really love this particular question.

Like, is it on land?

Yes, it is, I guess.

Oh, Monty,

I'm so glad that I know that so that I never get tricked into playing the game with you.

You're a little bit younger than me.

You're a true child of the 90s.

You got meta in your bones.

Sorry.

The answer to your 20 questions is 20 questions.

Right.

The show is the show of the show.

This is the show of the show.

Here's the answer.

Josh, first of all, I've established played correctly.

But if you want, and frankly, generously, because you gave her

valuable information to teasing out the correct answer.

However, if you wanted to answer without a question mark, a definitive yes or no,

the Amazon River is on land.

Yes.

Because what's at the bottom of the river?

Land.

It's sitting on land.

It's sitting in a valley of land.

It's moving over the riverbed, which is soggy land.

But land.

And you can dispute this if you want in the Reddit, too.

What was the most traumatic, which was more traumatic?

In your childhood, I, Claudius, Watership Down, Wizard of Oz.

And how wrong is John Hodgman on this one?

Go ahead.

I know I'm right.

But the fact is, he played correctly because by going yes,

instead of yes,

saying yes plainly would be a misdirection to her, a real misdirection.

It would be, frankly, as bad as playing the game and the answer being 20 questions.

If only she had asked, is it blue on a map?

I mean, that's actually what we're kind of.

How would she know to ask that question?

She would not.

So

I think your ruling is correct.

Monty, sideshow.

Yes.

All right.

A maximum fun one-off

A live

on Zoom.

20 questions competition between you and me.

I love it.

So we play three rounds, best two out of three.

And then maybe we can figure out a way for viewers to qualify to try to stump us.

Or we could choose in like the comments, like, I'm going to ask this as one of my 20 questions.

No, no, I got to figure it out.

Don't worry about it.

All right, you know how to do this way better than I did.

I'm going to plot it out in my head.

We're going to do this.

It's going to be good.

All right.

Love it.

What's the name of the game going to be?

20 questions?

20, 20 questions.

20.

And it'll be 20 rounds of 20 questions.

No.

Let's move on.

It's only 400 questions.

Come up with a name.

I want to come up with a name.

I'll let everyone know as soon as we can work it out, Monty.

This will be a fun thing to do of an evening.

Absolutely.

With our listeners.

All right, let's move on.

A listener named Hannah wrote in about a recent piece of Swift justice that was issued.

The question was whether or not a book is a device.

The court decided that a book is not a device.

Yeah, Monty, let me read this because obviously I get a lot of pushback on my correct opinions.

And this was one, and I normally just say thank you for your input, but I stand by my decision.

Yes.

But regarding whether or not a book was a device, a lot of people pushed back,

a lot of bookish people in the audience, which I love.

And I started, I read this letter and I started to compose an argument as to why I was still correct,

even though Hannah, you will learn, is a historian and publishing scholar who dedicates a lot of her time to trying to convince students that books are a technology like any other.

But then I realized, you know what?

I'm wrong.

Wow.

Here's what Hannah.

So I'm going to read this for Hannah.

I'm a book historian and publishing scholar who dedicates a lot of my time to trying to convince students that books are a technology like any other.

The desire to distinguish between electronic gizmos

like e-readers and print books, which was my, that was personally my John Hodgman's dividing line.

You wouldn't call a book a gizmo, therefore it's not a device.

The desire to distinguish between gizmos like e-readers and print books not only leads to all sorts of ableism

in that it seems to degrade e-books, but also reflects an ahistorical tendency to pretend that books were never themselves new media.

In fact, there are many moments in history that suggest how device-like

these technologies once were.

My favorite example, this is Hannah.

still,

is that of Johannes Fust,

the business partner of Johannes Gutenberg.

The two Johanneses, they called them.

That was me.

It was two Johanneses and a Baby starring Johannes Gutenberg.

All right, back to Hannah's letter.

Johannes Fust

loaned a significant amount of money to Gutenberg to fund his printed Bible.

Just as the Bible was being completed, Fust brought suit against his business partner and got everything, including the Bibles.

Fust then attempted to sell the printed Bibles in Paris as manuscripts.

The authorities got wind wind of these uncannily identical books, and Foust was charged with witchcraft,

forcing him to reveal the secret of the Bibles that they were, in fact, newfangled devices,

that is to say, mechanically printed books.

Some scholars have speculated that Foust was the inspiration for the legend of Dr.

Faustus and his quest for limitless knowledge.

Given your established preference for historical accuracy over semantic categories,

a preference that I don't think I've established, but anyway, fine.

I may want to reconsider whether books are, in fact, devices, and I do reconsider it.

It is a hair that I splited, right?

That's the best tense of split.

Splitted.

I splitted that hair, that gizmo versus book hair.

I never intended, and I apologize, Hannah, to suggest that books

as a physical object were not indeed absolutely, historically, massively disruptive technology

and they are

you know they are while device tends to

imply in contemporary definitions having an electronic component which books do not at least not printed books

you're absolutely right that even though

A book is content that we refer to as being readable across many different kinds of devices.

The physical thing we call a book is a hinge, it is mechanical, it was an invention, and I apologize.

I got it wrong

first, first time in 10 years.

First time in 10 years, I think,

that I have admitted wrongdoing.

See, I'm growing.

All right.

That was very big of you, Judge John Hodgman.

Well,

it's time for guys who look like me

to to listen to the expertise of others and adjust accordingly.

So,

Hannah, thank you for your research.

Thank you for that great story about Fuss and books being suspected of being

the tools of witchcraft.

Do the laugh now, Monty.

Be a witch.

Oh, Johannes Fuss, you come to haunt me.

No, I'm Johannes Gutenberg.

Too many Johanneses.

That's it.

The docket docket is clear.

Thank you for joining us again on another episode of Judge John Hodgman.

Our producer, of course, is Jennifer Marmer.

Follow us on Twitter.

Monty Belmonte is guess what?

At Monty Belmonte.

M-O-N-T-E.

B-E-L-M-O-N-T-E.

Love it.

It just rolls off its like a cheer.

M-O-N-T-E-B E-L-M-O-N-T-E.

Less like a cheer.

That was better, I thought.

And I am at Hodgman.

H-O-D-G-M-A-N.

H-O-D-G-M-A-N.

We're on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to hashtag your judgejohnhodgman tweets.

Hashtag JJ H O and check out the maximum fun subreddit to discuss this episode.

Remember,

remember to talk about which is more traumatic in childhood, whether it was a watershed down, and how wrong I was about the other thing.

But do not get in that Reddit and complain that I never revealed the best panino I ever had in my life because I saved it now to the very end.

A long time ago.

This is also a story from ancient times.

It's American Pie.

A long, long time ago,

I once had a panino.

Oh, no.

Sorry.

Doubly traumatized.

I'm kind of weird owl territory right there.

Which is more traumatic?

Resident of Oz on TV, Watership Down in the movie theater or on VHS cassette, or listening to your dad at some point sing American Pie.

Anyway, it's not an American Pie because, in fact, we were in Venice, Italy,

the most beautiful city in the world.

Have you ever been, Monty?

No, I have not.

Yeah, well, you can't go.

You can't go.

Plane tickets are real cheap right now.

Yeah,

you can't go.

But I hope that when we forge this new better normal together, part of that new better normal will include finally addressing climate change issues that are currently causing Venice to disappear beneath the ocean forever.

But before that happens, near the Peggy Guggenheim Museum,

there is a little bar called the Corner Pub.

It is...

In English, the name of it is Corner Pub.

I mean, it presents itself as an quote-unquote English pub.

But of course, inside it's very Italian.

They have chicchetti, chicchetti is the Venetian bar snack, which is often just like a little piece of lard on a piece of bread, or like a toothpick and a huge piece of provolone with an anchovy on it.

It's all everything I love.

It's just mayo grilled, yeah, no.

And then they have panini, right?

And this panino, I'm not going to bury the lead, it did not have mayonnaise on it, okay,

but it was

you know, long bread, panini press,

with arugula,

butter,

speck, which is smoked prosciutto,

and hard-boiled eggs.

Oh, my.

And boy, was it good.

So I'm going to make one of those for my dinner tomorrow night, I guess.

But now I'm going to leave you.

And sadly leave you, Jennifer and Monty with great senior faces.

Remember to submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho or email me, John Hodgman.

The email address is hodgman at maximumfun.org.

Hey, Monty, see you again this summertime.

Jennifer, see you again.

And for the rest of you, I will not see you again because it's a podcast on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

MaximumFun.org.

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