German Engine Hearing

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, German engine hearing.

Bethany files suit against her husband, Jeff.

They have an old minivan that will need to be replaced soon.

Bethany wants to buy her dream car, a vintage VW bus.

Jeff believes these vehicles are unsafe and would like to purchase a more practical one.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hopkins enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

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Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Bethany, Jeff, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever?

Yes, I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his dream vehicle is a Japanese import Mitsubishi Delica?

Yes.

Yes, indeed.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Bethany and Jeff, you may be seated.

Jesse, what's a Mitsubishi Delica?

What's that one?

Oh, it's the best kind of van.

You know, Ben Harrison, the host of Greatest Generation on our network, and I text each other pictures of cool vans we see.

And occasionally we'll see a delica, which is a lifted, all-wheel-drive Japanese van that usually has like, you know, a roof rack and fog lights and is weirdly square.

Looks a little bit like a transporter vehicle from Star Trek.

You're talking about something from the 80s, though, because the new ones don't look good, as nothing new ever does.

Yeah, I think it has to be from the 80s in order to be imported.

It has to be a certain age in order to be imported from Japan into the United States.

So I've actually never seen a new one.

Well, I know just what I'm getting you for the 10th anniversary of this podcast this November.

Yes.

Probably some snacks.

Probably tinnick popcorn.

Oh, I hope it's fiddle-faddle.

Welcome to Cool Van Kids, the new podcast about vans, because that's what we're talking about today.

But Bethany and Jeff, before we can get into your van van discussion, it's van talk, right?

This is van talk.

Is that what this has become?

For an immediate summary judgment, one of yours favors, can either you, Bethany, or you, Jeff, name the piece of culture I referenced when I entered the courtroom.

And I'll give you a hint: the term podcast is standing in for something else in the actual quote.

Bethany, let's start with you.

What's your guess?

Oh, gosh.

Okay, well, it sounds like an eBay ad for a VW bus.

Sounds like an eBay ad for a VW bus.

Interesting, all right.

Any particular model of VW bus?

I'm totally blanking on what you were saying.

If I told you the model year was 1985, would you be able to tell me what iteration of the VW bus I was talking about?

Well, that's after generation two.

And

I am so not interested in the VW buses from the 80s that I don't even have their different names memorized.

So sorry.

No.

If you had a little bit more information about this bus you wanted to get as part of this case, you might be going home with one right now.

But instead, I'm going to put your vague guess into the guess book to see if Jeff can do any better.

Jeff, what is your guess?

Well, if it's a 1980s Volkswagen bus, it's a Vannegan.

I do not have a good guess, so I'm going to guess Unsafe at Any Speed by Ralph Nader.

A very pointed guess.

Why don't you guess the other thing?

Jeff is about to argue that instead of the Volkswagen van, they should get a Chevy Corvair.

You could have taken it away, Jeff, if you followed your instincts.

You know that it's not Ralph Nader's book.

This just reveals to me that you want this to be heard because maybe subconsciously you want Bethany to get this van.

He wants to make a point.

What's the point he wants to make?

I love it when Jeff wants to make a point.

Oh, so do I.

Oh, well, there are a number of points.

There are safety points, and there are environmental points, and there are practicality points.

You want the case to be heard so that you can go through all of your talking points.

I've heard the show before, and when people get the answers right, it doesn't make for a very good show.

Well, as it happens, you got it wrong.

Sorry.

We're off to a good start then.

It is a 1985 VW Vannegan, but specifically the Westphalia model.

Oh, right.

And the piece of culture that I was quoting from is the Instagram account of Bill Thomas.

You know Bill Thomas, don't you?

I will after today.

Bill is a woodworker and a boat builder in New England, which is a region of the northeast United States.

I don't know Bill very well, but I do know his wife, Jane.

Jane Allfeldt is my wife's sailing teacher and personal hero.

And together they roam around New England building things and teaching things and living in this 1985 Westphalia camping van that Bill himself tricked out with all kinds of incredible radios and seats and little like compartments and a portable shower.

It's an incredible feat of human imagination and engineering.

And he is selling it.

So if you want to check it out, go to his Instagram account, Instagram.com slash at B-I-L-L-T-H-O-M-A-S-M-A-K-E-R.

Bill Thomas Maker.

So Judge John Hodgman van fans, go check it out.

And here's the car.

So it's a car, and it's not a boat.

They didn't make it into a boat.

That would be pretty cool if they made it, you know, into like a duck boat.

It's just a land van.

You know, they tricked it out, and you can live in it and everything else.

And after many, many years, they're selling it because he's going to go rebuild a Delica or something, I think, is next.

So they're selling this Westphalia.

So I'm plugging it.

Maybe you can buy it.

Maybe.

You don't want an 85 Westphalia camper van.

Bethany's eyes are lighting up, but she's pretty hardcore about the 60s versions of the bus.

Right.

So, Bethany, your minivan is dying or becoming outmoded in your life.

Yes.

You'd like to get a 60s Volkswagen mini-bus, aka hippie bus, aka bully, aka camper van, aka Samba, aka combie.

You're killing it with the akas, Bethany.

You know your stuff.

You thinking about joining the Wu-Tang clan?

Maybe.

So 60s or 70s.

Yeah.

Yeah, and Jeff, you don't want anything to do with this.

We'll get into your reasons in a moment, Jeff, because I know you are a loaded forbear.

But first, we'll talk to Bethany.

Right now, you have a minivan.

What is it, a Honda Odyssey?

Is that correct?

Right.

11 years old.

It's fine.

It's a fine car.

The doors don't exactly open anymore or lock.

Well.

Oh.

Yeah.

Well, they do now.

They've been fixed.

It's showing us age.

Okay.

Have they been fixed with some kind of interior like wire hanger wrapped around two handles?

Not this time.

So Bethany, is the Odyssey dying or are you just emotionally done with it?

We could probably drive it into the ground for a couple more years, but you know, it is hard when the side doors weren't opening properly because I fill it to the brim.

pretty much a couple times a week with plants and mulch and straw and tools and fertilizer and flowers.

Are you doing this for any particular reason?

Yeah, so

she's a smuggler, sir.

Yeah, I started a couple years ago.

I grow flowers for my own flower design business.

Oh, wonderful.

Yeah, so I apprenticed at a flower farm about two years ago, and last year I started my own little gig in Tacoma Park.

I've taken over my yard and my neighbor's yard and a few other people's yards.

And I rent space.

I'm actually not renting.

I'm being generously given space at a flower farm close by.

So, you know, I travel between all these different places and I plant and I hoe and I weed and I come home with buckets and buckets of flowers.

And buckets and buckets of flowers in a VW bus would be about the most adorable thing ever.

Oh, okay, I see.

It's also very on-brand for Tacoma Park, Maryland, I say, as a former Tacoma Park, Maryland resident, once you're...

No, really?

Yeah, that's true.

That's real.

What street?

Oh, yeah, listen to Jeff.

Jeff hasn't taken any of this cuff.

I don't have anything to prove to you, sir.

I worked at Borders in downtown Washington, D.C.

Across the street from J Press.

That was the summer where I thought I had been offered an internship at National Public Radio, but as it turned turned out, had not.

Oh, no.

You went to DC and you realized you didn't have this internship, so you worked at Borders and lived in Tacoma Park.

Exactly.

You could do worse.

What street, Jesse?

What street?

I don't remember the name of the street.

Oh, really?

Hmm.

Seems like there's a hole in your story.

I took care of a little boy who wasn't allowed to swear, so when he was angry, he would call me a firehead.

One time, as I was recording some voiceover, and the voice director who I was working with remotely was this wonderful woman, and instead of swearing, she would say frogs.

She'd go, oh, frogs.

What's Tacoma Park like, Jesse Thorne, when you say that it's the perfect place for a VW bus full of flowers?

Tacoma Park is a close neighbor of Washington, D.C.

It's an immediate suburb.

It's accessible via metro.

And for, you know, button-down Washington, D.C., it has a reputation as the hippie suburb.

Oh, okay, I got you.

It is the Berkeley of the East Coast.

Ah.

As someone who has spent a lot of time in both places, I would say that's a bit of a stretch, but relative to other suburbs of Washington, D.C., it's a little smaller than Berkeley.

Certainly more so than, say, Silver Spring, Maryland.

Yeah, right.

Silver Spring is the big city, and Tacoma Park is the suburb.

It's a very sweet place.

It was a very nice place to live.

And how long have you lived there, Jeff?

We have lived there since 1997, so 22 years.

All in the same place?

Yes, yeah, same house.

Wait a minute.

What street?

Checks out, Jesse.

You're going to get a bunch of Judge John Hodgman listeners strolling up and down your blocks looking for you guys.

It's a pretty busy street.

They can join the crowd.

It's the one with all the flowers out front.

In what you call your yard, but it's the yard that you share with Jeff.

Oh, yeah, our yard.

Who is your husband, correct?

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

And Jeff, what do you do all day long?

I'm

a journalist.

I work for Consumer Reports, which is a publication known for its no-nonsense approach to choosing cars or anything else that you are spending a lot of money on.

Judge Hodgman, I should explain, as someone who has formerly lived in the Washington, D.C.

area, when someone says they are a journalist, that means they're an international hitman.

You could be an international super spy and also be writing car reviews for Consumer Reports.

Yeah, I think that's a good cover.

That's right.

But before we get on to Jeff's no-nonsense, let's get back to your nonsense, Bethany.

Yes.

What specific kind of VW bus do you want and why do you want it?

I mean, what you describe sounds pretty adorable, a bus full of flowers.

Is there more to it than that?

Oh, yeah, there's lots more.

So the dream one, of course, is that kind of iconic 60s bus with the little peak nose, I think they call it, and the VW emblem on the front.

I mean, those are just adorable.

But the ones in the 70s have a couple of improvements, like a fender, which my husband seems to think is a bumper.

He seems to think that's important.

But, you know, it has about as much room as our minivan does so that I can stow things.

I would really love a camper, like your friend that you just talked about.

I'm just amazed at how ingenious the interiors are in these buses.

And I have seen on eBay the way people do trick them out.

And I mean, I just am charmed to death by the ingenuity in there.

They're like little tiny houses and besides that I think it's a mark of ingenuity that they can even get a large motor vehicle like that to drive with a moped engine.

Sometimes they come with canopies.

So my one goal this year is to set up at a local farm market.

And so instead of setting up a tent, I would just roll up all adorable in my VW van and then open up the side door and pull out the canopy set up underneath that.

And I'm sorry, it's stinking cute.

Bethany, is this the family's only motor vehicle?

No, we have a Honda Accord as well.

And, you know, our kids are grown, so we don't really need, we don't need them anymore.

They don't need us anymore.

Are they out of the house?

Almost.

Some of them.

Yeah, two-thirds are out of the house.

And how many do you have?

30?

Three.

One getting ready to leave the nest.

That's right.

And you've got this Honda Odyssey, and you also got the Honda Accord, aka the Consumer Reports Special.

Yes.

Jeff, why don't you love this idea of your adorable wife hauling all of her adorable flowers around in her adorable van?

First, I want to say it is adorable.

The vision is great.

And I think if we could afford a vehicle that we would only drive to the farmer's market and the flower shows, I think it would be okay.

But Bethany needs this as a work vehicle, and she puts a lot of miles on the minivan right now because she drives to the flower farm that's about 20 miles away from our house.

Sometimes she drives to other flower farms around Maryland.

Sometimes she goes down to the Amish flower auction in southern Maryland.

Sometimes she drives on the Beltway.

And that's really the,

you know, as I think about this, that's why

this doesn't work.

Because you're concerned for her safety on this vehicle.

Yes.

Yes.

I don't want Bethany to become

a crash statistic.

You know, Jeff, I once was driving on the Beltway

in an Acura coupe, maybe a 10-year-old, 15-year-old Acura coupe, and it just stopped working.

That sounds pretty scary.

It was the most terrifying thing that's ever happened to me in my life.

Yeah.

I pulled off the road into what turned out to be a parkway

with no power.

I had to muscle it to the side of the road, no power steering, pulled off the road, and then luckily I had a cell phone.

This was early in my cell phone life.

I called my Aunt Debbie and just

explained what the trees around me looked like until she figured out what exit I had pulled off on.

It was free GPS.

Luckily, Aunt Debbie and Uncle Wayne came and rescued me from the side of the road.

God bless them.

My wife, Teresa, was with me as well.

Your consumer report would be, stay away from accurate goops.

My consumer report would be, take care with what vehicle you drive on the beltway around Washington, D.C., because it is a wide, fast highway.

So, Jeff, you sent in some evidence.

We're going to take a look at that now.

Specifically, you sent in a couple of videos, and we're going to feature links to these videos on our show page at maximumfund.org.

And as always, you can check out all our evidence on the Instagram page at JudgeJohn Hodgman.

You make the point in your evidence that, quote, crash testing as it is known today didn't exist in the VW bus era.

You'd be missing out on several generations of automotive engineering and a public health revolution if you were going to drive one of these buses.

To make the point, you sent me some videos of a bunch of VW buses crashing and falling over.

Yep.

The first one is a rather dramatic slow-motion crash test of a VW bus type T3 third generation, the Vannigan generation, going head-on into a wall, correct?

Yeah, I guess it is.

If it's 70s, that means it should be more engineered than a 60s one.

Whatever generation it was, the crash test is pretty convincing.

Oh, my God.

Holy cow.

It's clearly a third generation, an 80s generation.

Is it?

It looks older to me.

Yeah, it looked older to me, too.

Yeah, it actually looks like a truck as well.

Yeah.

It's okay, so it is a really cool-looking truck.

As you mentioned, it's a pickup version, but a four-door pickup.

And as it crashes into the wall, not only does what would be the engine compartment collapse, not only does the driver's compartment collapse, but the passenger's compartment behind the driver's compartment also collapses.

And in fact, part of the bed of the truck collapses basically two-thirds of the vehicle ends up as a pancake but it is cute i'm not gonna lie yeah and there's some controversy about this video right like if you read the the comments on it whether the volkswagen van that bethany chooses would be that model or not whatever model she chooses I mean, I've seen these crash tests with these older 60s vehicles and they're never good.

The way modern cars are designed in a frontal crash, the engine compartment is designed to absorb most of the impact.

And then the goal in engineering is that the passenger compartment kind of remains intact.

And I am confident that whatever 60s model Bethany chooses, it would be a disaster in a frontal crash.

Definitely the passenger compartment in this video, at least, is non-existent pretty quickly after this head-on crash.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Court is back in session.

Let's return to the courtroom for more justice.

You also sent in a video of a very wobbly VW micro bus showing its tendency to roll over.

This is a black and white video that I'm looking at right now.

This is clearly a T, a first generation micro bus because I can see it's got that split windshield, which is its original design.

It's got extra wheels like strapped out on arms to the side so that it doesn't roll over

all the way.

But when it makes turns, it's clearly going over.

When it makes sharp turns, it's clearly going to roll over.

If it didn't have those little wheels on the side,

it would be rolling all over that old field.

It's basically a catamaran.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

It's like got two pontoons on either side.

The wheels on the side side are because they know it's going to roll over.

Right.

So why don't you just let Bethany get her van and put some extra wheels on it like that?

If you tried to drive that on the beltway,

you would get some upset drivers, so she might get killed by the revolutionaries who are getting out of their car.

Yeah, Road Rage will kill her before the van does in that case, I suppose.

It sure is cute.

Now, Bethany, you also sent in some evidence.

And again, these photos will be on the Instagram and the Maximum Fun show page.

You sent in some pictures.

There's you in the Honda Odyssey with a bunch of flowers.

It's a terrifying sight.

I mean, the flowers look beautiful and you are as adorable as you sound.

But just this Honda Odyssey packed to the brim with flowers, it looks like a post-apocalyptic novel of an abandoned Odyssey that's been reclaimed by nature.

I try.

You can't be using the Odyssey for anything but dirt and flowers at this point, right?

I brought home the Christmas tree.

We brought home the Christmas tree.

I'm I'm excited to see, Bethany, that you're packing this thing full of vegetal matter without removing any of the seats in the back.

That

your kids are grown.

You have no reason to have seats in the back.

And yet you've decided that these flowers would be happiest if they had their own little captain's seat to sit on.

They can get buckled in that way.

These are her new children, Jesse.

It's a while before you're going to reach where Bethany and Jeff are and where my wife and I are soon.

One of our kids is about to turn 18.

The other one is in high school as well.

And so we're looking forward to our empty nest years where we replace our children with mannequins and wicker men.

That's our plan.

Crash test dummies.

No, that's more Jeff's thing.

He loves those crash test dummies.

He does.

And then you send in a picture of an old micro bus that has this canopy that you're showing.

You don't use this Odyssey for anything else but transporting various kinds of foliage.

It's a real utility vehicle at this point, not a sports utility.

It is my sports vehicle, yes.

We use it when we go to the beach.

We use it if we have visitors and we're going out as a group with more than five people.

But it's a mess.

But that's what it's for.

Yeah, we're not trying to impress people with it anymore.

Right.

Not like you're trying to impress people with your Honda Accord.

That's right.

That's the fancy car.

It sure is.

Although it also carries flowers from time to time.

So

it is also covered in debris and plant matter.

And you also sent in some photos of your intern, which is a cat.

Jesse Thorne, you want to take a look at this cat?

Yeah, I do.

So there's a couple pictures of the cat.

The first picture of the cat I'm seeing here, it's next to some tastefully arranged flowers.

It looks like a pretty kind of peachy-colored cat.

Tan-peach kind of combination.

And then it's eating.

It looks so dumb.

It's trying to eat a leaf.

But it's like,

it really encapsulates his whole personality in that one photo.

He looks like a stuffed polar bear.

Yeah, he's trying to eat that one long fronde.

What kind of plant is he trying to eat?

I think it's a piece of grass.

Yeah.

He loves grass.

Loves grass.

Oh, God.

And you also send in some links to various websites, including the samba.com, which is a discussion board for people who share your strange obsession.

I sent you guys that because, of course, you know, I don't know a lot about buses, but I feel like we have resources.

So there's this website where we can do some research into, you know, what does it take to fix up a van so that it's a little more roadworthy.

So yeah, there's just gearheads talking on samba.com.

We also have close in, we have our mechanic friend, Marty,

who is kind of my enabler in this whole thing.

So we have a couple of different experts that we could turn to.

The key word is enabler.

Bethany, you're willing to consider the possibility of, among other things, putting a modern engine into a classic Volkswagen body so that it might be more reliable.

Right.

And per Marty and per the gearheads that, you know, what I've gleaned from the Samba, and they get pretty technical, so I get...

you know, it's out of my depth pretty quickly on the Samba, but per our mechanic friend Marty, the prudent thing to do is to replace the engine, put in a Subaru water-cooled engine so that you get more power, more reliability, and better mileage, and

better emissions.

So, that you know, I feel like

Marty says, Yeah, that's what Marty says.

Hang on a second.

Bethany, let me interrupt here.

Yes,

Jeff.

Yes.

Who the frog is Marty?

Marty is our friend in Tacoma Park who works as a mechanic and also shares the same obsession as Bethany.

And he loves Volkswagen buses.

He used to own one, but I think it's a little different proposition if you're a mechanic and you own one of these things because you can fix it.

And then we happened to see Marty at a party over the weekend, and I cross-examined him

about this Subaru plan.

And

he tells me that it would cost maybe $40,000 to get a retrofitted Super Volkswagen bus.

Bethany, you're willing to consider putting a contemporary engine and possibly transmission inside the vehicle to make it more reliable.

Have you considered putting a contemporary vehicle inside the Volkswagen to make it safer?

Now, that's a thought.

We could get some Takata airbags, too, and put that in there.

Maybe not Takata airbags.

There's a shortcut to making the vehicle as safe and reliable as a modern vehicle, which is getting a modern vehicle.

Jeff, what kind of vehicle would you like to replace the minivan with?

What would you suggest as a consumer reporter?

Yeah.

So about six months ago, we had a discussion whether we should sell the Odyssey and get like a smaller SUV.

But then Bethany,

when she looked at...

her space requirements because flower like individual flowers don't take up a lot of space but but when she makes giant arrangements for a wedding or something like that she needs a lot of space so she needs sort of a cavernous interior i think like a uh yeah you need a you need a lot of space for the plants and flowers especially if one of them's a like an audrey two type situation

yeah

so like a toyota highlander something like that i think might be a good option because of the cargo space yeah so you need like a slightly larger suv jeff i'm going to tell you something right now.

Yep.

You just made a powerful enemy.

I do not like a Toyota Highlander.

Sorry, Jonathan Colton.

I do not care for it.

They are not fun to ride in.

They are hard to ride in.

When I see it, you know, sometimes calves are Highlanders, and when I get in one, I'm like, this is very uncomfortable.

And the plants, and I don't like it.

That's all I have to say.

What do you think about that, Jesse?

Bethany, have you considered either a somewhat more contemporary Volkswagen van, like a Euro van from the 80s or 90s?

Or have you considered a contemporary commercial vehicle like a Sprinter or a Transit Connect?

And

I've looked at them and dismissed them out of hand?

Out of hand, really.

She's frowning.

Yeah, I just, I don't know why it's so hard for the automotive industry to create cars with personality.

I just feel like the Volkswagen buses and Bug are the only two so far that have any semblance of a personality or charm to them.

And

every other car out there is sort of designed for a guy personality,

a torque and horsepower sort of personality.

I would say that's true.

Most cars today are designed with the same style and Brio as pleated Dockers.

Right.

I agree.

Have you seen the new micro bus that Volkswagen concepted?

And our CDC is supposed to.

The all-electric one.

Yeah, the ID buzz, they call it.

Yeah.

That's not bad.

It comes close.

We had a conversation about that.

It comes close to having a little bit of some of the charm.

I think they've tried to create the front as much as possible to look like the first generation, second generation.

That's not what you said when we talked about it.

Okay.

What did she say when you talked about it?

She just shook her head and she said, yeah, it doesn't, it's not the same.

It's not the same.

And then I actually, as part of my job, I go to

auto shows, the big auto shows sometimes.

And at Detroit a couple years ago, I met with the top Volkswagen executives in America, and they had just unveiled that ID buzz.

And so I got a chance to talk to him, and I explained to him my wife's Volkswagen bus obsession.

And I asked him, like, why they don't make the new electric bus more like the 60s bus.

He nodded his head, and he understood the question.

He said they get that a lot, but they could not make a bus look like the 60s bus and be able to pass a modern crash test.

This bus is an impractical death trap that, unfortunately, your wife happens to have her heart set on.

Jeff, you write for Consumer Reports.

How do you feel when your own wife and partner doesn't take your advice?

I mean, you're talking to the head of Volkswagen and he's saying, yeah, we can't make a death trap.

Yeah, I mean, I thought that this argument would have been settled a long time ago because it's on the merits of the usual things that you consider when you, you know, you make a big business car decision, it fails on all these tests.

The other, there is one other argument.

Jeff, Jeff, no.

Yes.

Order in this court.

Shut your pie hole, sir.

Thank you, Jesse.

How does it make you feel

when your wife and friend and partner in this life doesn't take your advice about stuff that you know a lot about.

It makes me feel like she doesn't understand what I do for a living.

Do you think that you would ever feel at peace knowing that she's driving around in this rickety tin death box?

Yeah, I would have some concerns given how many miles she puts on her work vehicle.

Yeah, I would definitely have some concerns.

Would you ever feel a moment's peace?

Yes or no?

I wouldn't obsess about it, but it would concern me.

Well, it's consumer reports for you.

There are things you can do to make them safer.

You can lower the body.

That really funny video about the

one bus rolling over, you can lower the body to stabilize it.

People have

done things to make these things a little safer, a little more efficient.

Bethany, I know that you and Marty have got a scheme,

all kinds of schemes, to throw tens of thousands of dollars to make this thing marginally safer and more efficient and reliable.

Do you have this VW tricked out bus money just lying around?

How are you going to pay for it all?

Well, you know, what I said when I brought the case is I just wanted to start discussions and think about it.

So yeah, no, we don't have this money.

But I'd like to know, I'd like to, I just, I'm actually, I'm more curious than anything, what does it take?

I have seen on eBay, of course, there are the ones that have had everything done to them, and they are just like $150,000, just precious and wonderfully kept up.

And then there are others that are more in our price range that are rusted out Hulks.

So I bet you there's a medium in there somewhere.

And I just would, I'm just curious to know, is there?

I just would like to discuss it.

And Jeff really doesn't want to discuss it.

He just wants to hit me over the head with facts and and videos.

Yeah, yeah, he's Consumer Reports, sees who you married.

I know.

Jeff, do you want to respond to that?

Well, I would respond to the point that you can make these things safer.

I don't think you can't.

I mean, you can't re-engineer the front end of a 60s Volkswagen bus.

You can't add airbags to it.

You could make it less environmentally catastrophic.

Because, I mean, the other thing that we haven't talked about, and I'll make it short, is that, you know, the 60s buses were designed before there were any kind of pollution controls.

So there were no catalytic converters or anything.

The amount of tailpipe smog pollution coming out of a Volkswagen bus is about 100 times what is coming out of a car today.

And so one way to think about that is you could drive a...

a Toyota whatever, not a Highlander.

I'm about to hang up the podcast on you, sir, if you mention that again.

But you could drive a Honda Odyssey for 100 years and emit the same amount of pollution driving a Volkswagen bus for one year.

I object.

As an organic, locally grown flower farmer, I would think Bethany should be concerned about something like that.

Bethany?

Yes.

How far away is a farmer's market?

Petworth, that's about 10 miles away.

No, five?

Five.

Five miles away.

Walkable.

Walkable.

Sure, with buckets of flowers.

I could do that.

No, no, no, no.

I'm not suggesting that.

Come on, Bethany.

Give me some credit.

Okay.

I'm trying to help you here.

It's close.

Carry the flowers milkmaid style.

What kind of roads would you be taking between there and the farmer's market?

Oh, back roads, you know, through,

you know,

D.C.

neighborhoods, you know.

Surface streets, not highways.

Exactly.

Right.

Jeff, quick question.

Consumer Reports knows, how much more life do you have in that Honda Odyssey?

Three to five years.

Three to five years.

Okay.

And what's your parking situation there?

We have a driveway.

We live on a busy street, so there's no street parking.

We have a long driveway.

When our two cars are in the driveway, there's room for other cars.

It's pretty tough to maneuver when there's more than two cars there.

Okay.

And where does Marty live?

A couple blocks away.

Yeah, a couple blocks away.

All right.

And he's got a garage?

He picks his cars.

He works at a garage.

He doesn't have room to store an extra car.

Also, I should say Marty, Marty says that he won't work on, or his office wouldn't work on the Volkswagen bus, that we would have to go to a Volkswagen specialist.

Okay, fair enough.

And now, Bethany, if you already rule in your favor, you want me to just let the conversation continue?

Yeah, really.

Maybe let's go see some.

Can I just drive around around in one, please?

Can I just get it out of my system?

And also, can I say one last bit of evidence that I forgot to send you guys?

Jeff used to drive a 1965,

what was it, LeSabre?

He had a vintage car back in the day.

Old Cutlass.

Oldmobile Cutlass, yeah.

So he got it out of his system.

He got to have the fun of a cute, fun car like that.

And I just would like to get it out of my system, too.

A 1965 Oldsmobile Cutlass, Jeff?

You got to get yours, but she can't get hers?

Yeah, when I was 16,

I drove one of those things.

Oh, right.

Back when you were a real safe driver.

Back before we knew what we know now about automotive safety or environmental impact of cars.

If I were to rule in your favor, Jeff, we just crush the dream and move on.

I would ask that we do a

cost-benefit analysis of like how much this is going to cost

and whether her business since it's a business vehicle whether her business can afford this

in other words jeff you'd like to crush her dream through your dream which is to create a cost benefit analysis right a cost benefit analysis that's also known as a consumer reports holiday party

Are you making money in this business?

No.

No.

This is a new thing for you.

Did you leave a career?

Yeah, I used to teach English as a second language, but

I had a mid-life career change about 10 years ago.

Right.

All right.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I am going to go into my restored 1949 Mercedes Unimog, and I'll be back in a moment to render my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgkin exits the courtroom.

Jeff, Bethany, how come you're not getting a Unimog?

I'm going to look it up.

Don't think I haven't texted my friend Ben a picture of a Unimog I walked past on the street.

Bethany, how are you feeling about your chances?

Oh, not very good.

No, everyone's against me.

Everyone hates the bus.

Do you think everyone hates the bus?

Or do you think everyone loves you and doesn't want you to die?

Okay, I guess that may have something to do with it.

Yeah.

And I understand that.

Jeff, how are you feeling?

I'm not feeling that great, actually, because,

yeah, I don't think the judge is going to rule to kill Bethany's dreams.

Jeff, what's the least practical thing you've ever done of a medium or large scale in this relationship?

Marry me.

Yeah, marrying Bethany, I think.

It's enough for one man.

Enabling Bethany's flower farm.

Yeah.

That is not very practical.

No, but he's there for me for that, so that's cool.

Well, I'm glad the two of you still love each other.

We'll see if that's still the case when Judge John Hodgman returns in just a minute with the verdict.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

I'm really happy that Jesse got to the crux there in helping Jeff to acknowledge that Bethany is not a consumer reports person.

Jeff is practical and pragmatic.

I mean, he's the living embodiment of consumer reports.

I went to go look at what a 1965 Oldsmobile Cutlass looks like.

The vintage, cool car that Jeff had when he was 16 years old.

This is like the most anodyne old car I've ever seen in my life.

It's just a two-door sedan, I guess, or would that be, I don't know what the terms are.

It's a coupe.

It's a coupe.

I know that you love it, but it also looks like a pair of pleated dockers.

Like it's the most practical and pragmatic vintage car I feel like someone could own.

It's deeply ingrained in your personality, and that is a worthy thing to be practical and pragmatic.

And I appreciate the fact that you have opened your life also, Jeff, against your nature to the sheer chaos that is Bethany.

The dreaming, impractical, idealistic, let's shove a bunch of flowers into an Odyssey minivan and see what happens kind of person

that she is.

I mean, obviously, Bethany

is not thinking practically at all.

And this is what makes this case so hard, right?

Because this is a dream.

The dream is to cart around flowers in a beautiful bus.

And generally speaking, the Judge John Hodgman podcast does not like to step on dreams, does not like to squash dreams, Jeff style.

We like to acknowledge that people have dreams for a reason, that people have impractical desires for reasons.

I mean, Bethany has started a new career raising flowers because you guys are almost all done raising kids.

This is a classic time to take stock of your life and realize, oh, this is not a dress rehearsal.

This is all I got.

If I don't get to have this bus, you know, then I'm going to feel something empty in my life.

Or at least to have the chance to chase the dream a little bit and do her own internal irrational cost-benefit analysis and come to the conclusion that makes sense for her as to whether or not it was really going to work.

The fact of the matter is, though, Bethany, that though I fully intended to rule in favor of the dreamers, I don't think you should be driving this thing on the beltway at all.

Now I'm scared.

My own wife, anticipating our empty nest days, decided that she was going to get a Vespa scooter because she thought it would be fun and romantic and exciting to scoot to work every morning across the Brooklyn Bridge to where she works in lower Manhattan.

And I said, that is an incredible dream and one that I will support if you want it.

On the other hand, I also like you being alive because I don't think it's very safe to ride a Vespa scooter every day across the Brooklyn Bridge.

I don't feel it's very safe to drive on the Brooklyn Bridge, but I understand the power that these particular dreams have.

And if she does go and get one, I will support her.

But so far, I'm glad to say she hasn't.

I think that what should happen here is this.

You've got three to five years left on your Homeric journey, known as the Odyssey,

before you come home to find your wife being courted by many suitors.

There's a whole Homeric

thing here, too, I just realized, because Jeff is coming home to find you, like like odysseus's wife being paid suit to being courted by other voices like marty the guy who loves to fix cars and destroy marriages

i think that you should follow your dream but i think your dream should be different the micro bus cannot replace the odyssey the odyssey is a safe

dirty workhorse full of mud.

That's exactly what it needs to be.

The micro bus that you want to buy is a collector's work of art.

It would be terrible to fill your beautiful work of art and your dream full of dirt and mud and mulch and all the gross stuff of your business.

That's what a Honda Odyssey is for, to be full of garbage.

Just like a Honda Accord is, its design is to be full of unimaginative humans.

Sorry, Jiff.

Got to respect that design.

You got got to respect the work you're doing.

So as a replacement for the Odyssey, that's a hard no on the micro bus.

But as a farm stand,

it's a hard yes.

You have one that can just drive five miles.

Don't worry about putting a Subaru engine in her

five miles to the farm stand and five miles back once a week with a canopy.

You're going to be selling so many flowers.

So many people are going to be coming over there.

That's a business investment.

I know that Jeff was trying to make the argument that it's a little hard to maneuver with extra vehicles in your driveway.

And Jeff knew why I was asking it.

He figured it out.

He was like, yeah, but Marty can't store a vehicle.

I was thinking that.

I was thinking of stowing it over at Marty's.

He should be punished with that.

I think that you and Marty should get together and find a pretty good, cheap version of your dream.

Do not trick it out with a Subaru water engine and use it as your farm stand.

Only on those weekends when you're only going five miles or whatever, wherever you're going to set up to do your flower selling.

That way you get your dream and I think you sell a bunch more flowers

on the condition that you sit down with your husband Jeff and do a genuine cost-benefit analysis of what it would cost to buy a pretty good but not perfect vintage VW bus that would never, ever, ever go on a highway.

And what it would cost to find a place to store it if it's not not practical to store it at your place or at Marty's place.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules out as all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Bethany, is five miles a week each way good enough for you?

Absolutely.

I think that was sheer genius.

I love that ruling.

Jeff, how do you feel?

I feel okay.

It gives us something to work on and perhaps a way out of this Gordian knot.

I'm seeing stuff on this website you sent me, Bethany, like that these cars are going for like $5,000, $10,000.

Like here's one, a 1982 all-original Vanigan for $4,700.

I mean, it's not $0,

but I think it'll get your flowers to where they need to go.

And it'll give you guys a project and a hobby and something to talk about and something to work on together, which is exactly what you need at this stage in your life.

Something to live for and something to die in.

Ooh, dang.

That's solid.

I like it.

Bethany, Jeff, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Justin Gibson for naming this week's episode, German Engine Hearing.

Let me just say, Jesse, this is one of my favorite ones of all time.

German Engine Hearing.

Thank you, Justin.

You You know, Judge Hodgman, I actually technically should have recused myself from that entire case because one could make a pretty sound argument that I funded this entire operation, all of maximum fun,

with seed money provided when I sold my own death trap, a 1965 Dodge Dart that not only didn't have anti-lock brakes, but didn't have disc brakes, it had drum brakes, and it only had lap belts.

It was basically just like an impalement vehicle.

I sold it for, I think, $1,600 to a man and his son.

The man wanted to fix it up with his son.

It was running and everything.

It was in pretty good shape.

And I used that money to buy the telephone hybrid on which I first spoke to you, John.

Oh, wow.

A telephone hybrid is an old kind of mobile phone?

It's the machine that connects a telephone line to a soundboard because a telephone line is always carrying both sides of a conversation.

They're not separate.

They're not two channels.

So you need a machine that filters out one of the sides of the conversation to edit and mix them separately.

Anyway, if you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out calls for submissions there.

We are on Twitter at Hodgman and at Jesse Thorne, J-E-S-E-T-H-O-R-N.

Maximum Fun is on Twitter, by the way, at MaxFunHQ.

Should probably follow that.

Great feed.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho, and check out the maximum fun subreddit.

That's at maximumfun.reddit.com.

We're on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff.

And our thanks this week to Robert Frazier at Monitor Studios.

The episode was edited by Jesus Ambrosio and produced by the ever-capable Ms.

Hannah Smith.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Allie asks, silverware, handle up or handle down in the dishwasher?

You know, it really depends on your dishwasher, how well it washes the dishes, how efficiently it washes the silverware, and how cool you are with getting stabbed in the hand while reaching down to unload it.

I respect people's different opinions about how the silverware should go in.

We have, for example, we have a tray at the very top of the dishwasher cavity or whatever it is, and you lay the silverware in on its side, which solves this problem.

And when you lay it in on its side, the knives have to be on the left, then the large forks, then the small forks, then the small spoons, and then the large spoons, all in the same direction.

But otherwise, I'm not picky.

What do you do, Jesse?

I have a portable dishwasher.

Although it is a very effective cleaner, this portable dishwasher, thanks to my friends at Consumer Reports, I always load facing down because that is the direction that the water is coming from.

And the part part that needs cleaning is uh the business end and that i put closest to the water it has like a little grid overlay that you can flip down over the silverware tray and i use that to keep my knives from bumping into each other which is good because knives bumping into each other will dull the blade exactly jonathan colton once got into a it was actually on the first jonathan colton cruise where i adjudicated a dispute between him and his wife christine she wanted to separate the different forks and knives into the different compartments.

But Jonathan's like, you can't put the spoons together because then they'll just spoon.

They'll clump together.

Yeah, they'll nest.

They'll nest and they won't get clean.

I guess you should just throw that stuff in randomly.

So that's my ruling.

Whatever gets your dishes clean.

That's about it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJ Ho or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case is too small.

I hope we'll see you in San Francisco and next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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