Law Cucaracha

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm your summertime, fun-time guest bailiff, Monty Belmonte from 939 the River, WRSI Radio in Northampton, Massachusetts.

This week, law cucaracha.

Renee brings the case against your boyfriend, Patrick.

Patrick has been bugging Renee.

She thinks her mantis too intense about his approach to insect prevention in their house and has used ter might to ask the judge to let her be.

But her fly boyfriend, Patrick, has spied her, not being serious enough about the insects and would larva more serious commitment to help make the insects flee.

Whose pest control idea is the lesser of two weevils?

And how long will it be till these insect puns are over?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

No, I quit.

Sorry.

That's it.

This is the last episode.

Monty Belmonte broke me with his puns, his insect puns.

Joel Mann?

Yes, Judge.

Can you call me a cab?

You're a cab.

Oh, how dare you.

The two of you turn on me, dad jokers.

Dad jokers, both sides.

You're surrounded.

I haven't even done the cultural reference yet, but just to put everything in perspective, if this isn't the show that you that you remember that's because it's summertime and arguable fun time with guest bailiff monty belmonte of wrsi the river in northampton and guest producer joel man here at weru 89.9 in orland maine where i have taken residence for the summer not in the radio station joel i'm i'm i'm going home later okay all right okay here comes the cultural reference

I want to know what are we going to do about the bugs?

Because last time we turned it into a street street fight, we smooshed all the bugs, made the kitchen floor look like dirt, but now the bugs are back.

And it scares me, Burry.

It really does.

Now we can turn it into a street fight again, if you will, but that's not experience, Barry.

And that's not qualified.

And it scares me, Burry.

It really does.

You have to understand my position.

Is this experience?

Is this qualification?

We are scared over here about these bugs.

And now we have to think about the possibility of retaliation, if you will.

And that scares me, Burry.

It really does.

Monty Belmonte, swear them in.

Renee and Patrick, please rise and raise all of the right hands on your thorax.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, Mothra, or whatever.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that the judge has, until recently, had a reoccurring role on a show about an anthropomorphized insect?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Thank you very much, Summertime, Funtime Guest Bailiff Monty Belmonte of WRSI the River.

Renee and Patrick, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

How about we start with Renee?

My guess is going to be an episode of King of the Hill.

An episode of King of the Hill.

Without giving too much away, I will say that is a guess.

I am putting that into the guess book.

Interesting.

Which episode did you have in mind, Renee?

One where Hank has an issue with bugs, but Bobby really enjoys it.

And he finds a way to make money off of the bugs.

Uh-huh.

All right, Patrick, what's your guess?

My guess is a streetcar named Desire.

A streetcar named Desire.

Okay, by Tennessee Williams.

Right, Joel?

Is that correct?

Correct.

Yeah, Joel is my Google today.

All right, I'll put that guess in.

Joel, you want to take a guess?

Mr.

Smith goes to Washington.

Mr.

Smith goes to Washington because it sounded like a filibuster because it was really long?

A lot of bugs.

Oh, yeah, I got you.

Okay.

Monty, you had a guess?

I kept picturing scenes from Raising Arizona.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

It's not that, but that would be good.

I love that movie.

Me too.

Okay, all guesses are wrong.

A lot of Judge John Hodgman listeners are mad at all of you now because, of course, some years ago, I don't remember which episode it was,

I talked about a duped cassette tape of a variety of prank phone calls that was put in my hands by one Charles William Diggs III, my best friend from high school.

And this cassette tape from the early 1990s contained all of the jerky boys prank calls before the jerky boys existed, then became a thing, then became a movie, then were rightly forgotten.

Joel, you know who the jerky boys are?

Vaguely.

Yeah, right, exactly.

Good.

I hope it only gets vaguer.

But But there was one prank call on this thing where a guy called an exterminator and he said, I want to know what we're going to do about the bugs and this kind of weird Louisiana accent.

And it was to me the absolute funniest thing.

And I told the story about this tape on the podcast because for years I'd lost the tape and I had searched everywhere for it, here, there, and everywhere, Monte Belmonte, including all the boxes that were in storage.

in our home in western Massachusetts where I was sure that it existed.

But I had lost it completely.

And I asked anyone within the sound of my voice, if you know what I'm talking about,

get back to me because I was sure it was online somewhere, but I could never find it.

And good Judge John Hodgman listeners flooded my inbox, and I mean flooded them, with suggestions and links to prank calls that might be, some of them were calls to exterminators, but the guy didn't have a southern accent.

Some of the guy with a southern accent, but he was calling someone else, was never this person, was never this call.

And then a couple of months ago, I was in that basement in that house in Western Massachusetts.

And do you know why I was in there, Monty?

Yes, I do.

I was cleaning it out.

Getting ready to move.

And it was a bittersweet event because, of course, I love Western Massachusetts and I love Monte Belmonte.

And I have betrayed him, Western Massachusetts, WRSI the river, and all of its people

to come here to Maine and sit at WERU in front of Joel Mann.

And it's just not the same.

Sorry, Joel.

Well, we'll try and do better, Judge.

Well, yes, you'd best try.

But the bittersweetness was tempered by my wife reaching into a box saying, What's this?

And this is a box that I had searched before.

It was like magic.

And it was the tape.

And I was so excited.

I was so excited to listen to it again that I drove immediately to Staples to get a cassette tape player.

Nowhere in the Greenfield, Massachusetts area did they have one.

I had to order one online online to be delivered to Maine, which is where we were going next.

And I drove from Western Massachusetts.

I'm going to be honest with you, Monty.

I exceeded the speed limit by about five miles per hour because I was so excited to get to that tape cassette player.

I got there.

We put the tape in.

We listened to it.

I was concerned that it wasn't going to hold up.

Joel and Monty, it holds up.

It's still the funniest thing I've ever heard.

And our daughter also thought it was the funniest thing.

Like, it it was generationally funny.

I mean, you're a couple of dad jokers.

You make puns and you tell growners you're a cab.

You know what I mean?

You don't expect children to find the things you find funny to be funny.

But it worked.

It's like this connection between me and a young person.

And she loved it so much that the next day she said, Can we listen to that again tonight?

And I said, Of course we can.

And I put it in there.

I started playing it.

And the player ate the tape.

Oh, chewed it up.

Bummer.

Chewed it right up.

Heartbreaking.

And I was like, this is a short story right here.

And that turned out actually to be a fairly long story, and I just told it.

So who's here?

Sorry, Renee and Patrick.

You still there?

Still here.

Still here.

All right.

We're going to decide what we're going to do about the bugs in your home.

You live, it says here in Austin, Texas.

And you have a bug problem at your house?

I mean, I don't think so.

Okay.

I hear your point of view, Rene.

Good.

Renee doesn't think you have a bug problem, but Patrick is the one who sees bugs everywhere, right?

So let's hear his deluded point of view.

Okay.

So it's summer season, and roaches are coming back in because it's getting hot outside.

And if there's a few crumbs around, that is an open invitation.

And I'm just trying to be precautionary or just trying to

not

give them any kind of incentive to come in any further.

Wait, are you saying roaches are are coming back?

Yeah, they're coming back.

Where are they coming back from?

They've been on vacation?

You know, I don't know if that's their terminology, but I assume they were outside and now they're coming back inside or else they were just hanging out.

Oh, I see.

Okay, I got you.

Because in New York City, we don't have roach seasons.

It's always roach season in New York City.

Ever roach.

Ever roach, yeah.

You're saying, Patrick, that when it gets hot out in Austin, that's when you start seeing seeing roaches inside your house because they are seeking a cooler environment.

Do I understand that correctly?

Yes, it gets extremely hot.

Yeah, I get it.

Texas.

Everything is hotter in Texas.

That's what they say.

You know, we have your regular, what are called German cockroaches.

That's the species or whatever.

They don't have nationalities.

But they're about the size, I would say, about an inch.

to maybe

an inch and a half.

What size bugs do you get down there in Texas?

Bigger, I bet, right?

Yeah, we get a little bit of everything.

It's kind of hard to tell because they move so fast.

But do you get those big water bugs?

Do you know what I'm talking about?

Those super big cockroaches?

Not like the June bugs, right?

No, I'm not talking about a June bug, but

you don't have those in your house, do you?

I would say,

you know, I would never seen one bigger than three inches, probably.

That's a big cockroach.

Well, maybe that's a little bit too big.

You have fulfilled your Texan obligation to brag about the size of a thing.

So good job.

I set it up for you.

It took you a little while to get there, but now we know.

Everything's bigger in Texas.

Renee, you say that you don't have a bug problem.

I mean,

talking to Patrick, I'm not even sure that he has seen a cockroach.

He's having a hard time telling me about what's going on.

I think that he's definitely afraid of a potential cockroach, but he's having a hard time describing describing what they look like.

So maybe

you don't have a real problem.

What is the situation from your point of view?

It's my situation.

I mean, we're in Texas.

We have a house.

We have a backyard.

There will be bugs.

You know, eventually, if you open the door at the right time, maybe like one gets in.

But I don't think that we have any more issue than anybody else.

And I think

it's not necessary to see the bugs as an enemy.

It's just something that like there, it's a part of life.

Sometimes you get a bug in your house and you like pick it up and you put it outside and that's that.

And I think that's just accepting part of life.

No, you don't.

You don't do that.

You don't pick up a cockroach and put it outside.

We totally do though.

We totally do that.

No.

What?

Who does?

You do?

No.

We don't.

I mean, all right.

So here's the thing.

Patrick is the type of person where we'll be walking around town and I'll see a June bug like upside down kind of look doing like the flipped over turtle move and he'll go with the stick and like flip the dune bug back over.

So

we don't, well, I mean, I don't know, I would try and probably save the roach.

What would you do, Renee, if you saw a June bug flipped over?

I mean, I'd probably,

if I felt like it could still go on to live a really happy life, after and it wasn't like on its way out, I would flip it over.

I'd try and find a little patch of grass for it.

And if you determined that it was on its way out, what would you do?

Put it out of its misery?

Oh, I mean, I wouldn't like curb some roach or anything, but I probably would just walk by.

Wow.

Let me ask you this question.

Renee, if someone gives you a calf skin wallet for your birthday, how would you react?

A calf skin wallet?

Yeah.

Like a baby cow.

Yeah, that's right.

How would you react?

Would you accept it?

I think that, I mean, see, here's the thing.

Like, I have a leather wallet.

So am I to say that like the death of an adult cow is worse than the death of a calf?

Like right now, like my immediate reaction is to be like appalled at the idea of a calf skin, but then I feel like I'm just like a hypocrite for not opposing.

Like if you're not going to kill a bug, how can you not be vegetarian?

That's how I guess we're getting to here.

Okay.

A little boy shows you his butterfly collection plus the killing jar.

What do you say?

Plus the what jar?

The killing jar?

He kills butterflies in a jar?

Yeah, you suffocate them in a jar.

You put them in a jar and you close it and they die.

Your honor, is this actually a thing that happens in our our society?

You're watching television and suddenly you spot a wasp crawling on your arm.

How do you react?

I would try and save it and brush it away so that it can.

Well, are we inside?

I try and put it in a cup instead of outside.

All right.

I'm going to stop this now.

I've been toying with you a little bit today.

I apologize.

I mean, I felt like I was in, what's it, Blade Rider?

Yeah.

I can't believe that Joel.

I don't know whether Monty was following along this because I can't see him, but Joel recognized what I was doing, right?

I eat veal five times a day.

What is that from?

Wait a minute.

Maybe you don't.

I thought you got my very obscure cultural reference.

Too obscure for me, Judge.

Okay, so what happened there, this is not fair, Rene, and I apologize.

But when you posited the idea that you're walking along and you see a June bug on its back, do you flip it over?

That reminded me that it is almost exactly one of the questions in the vote comp

test.

that is a series of questions at the beginning of the movie Blade Runner that humans use to determine if someone is an android or not.

And guess what?

You're a human.

Nice.

You're not an android.

That run will confuse 99.9% of these listeners to this podcast, and I think has made Jennifer Marmor very upset now.

But it's all going to be in.

It's all going to be in.

But Renee, you did reveal information to me, which is that you're someone who wishes to be kind to animals, does not wish to destroy them, just because they're there, that you want to live in harmony with them whenever it is possible, correct?

Yeah, I'd say so.

Yeah, because you're a human, not an android.

You have empathy.

Whereas, Patrick, you are a replicant, right?

From the outer rim.

Judge, I didn't lay the foundation of my case, I think, appropriately.

When we first moved into our house a year ago in the summertime, we were seeing probably two or three roaches a night.

And Renee was saying to me that it was one roach, it was the same roach coming back and forth.

And I said, how can this be if they're at the same different places at the same time?

Renee, you are an optimistic soul.

I mean, I still stand by that it was the same roach because we never killed it because that's not really how we handle these situations.

We have built-in cabinets in our kitchen.

And I think the roach would hide underneath the cabinets or most likely underneath the dishwasher or the washer and dryer and hide for a day or two.

And then we'd see him scurrying across.

I think it was, I mean, maybe there was a max of two, but that was also right when we had moved into our house.

So they were flying around.

Oh, they're flying around.

I do not recall that.

They're flying cockroaches, palmettos?

There was one that flew.

The other ones were just roadrunners.

I mean, they were flying.

Oh, okay.

They were going fast.

They weren't actually flying, but you had one that flew.

Those are scary.

Monte Belmonte, you ever see a palmetto bug, a giant cockroach that flies at you?

Not to my knowledge.

Joel, you were just down in Florida.

You've seen one, right?

A lot of bugs in Florida.

Yeah, yeah.

That's where I saw a palmetto bug once, and it really freaked me out.

How about the love bugs?

What are they like?

Well, it's a family show, but

they're flying bugs that are joined.

Oh, okay.

And then they're just terrible.

They land all over you.

Wow.

That's no fun.

No.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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Renee, what is your dispute with Patrick about exactly?

He wants to kill all the bugs?

He wants to turn it into a street fight, or has he already turned it into a street fight?

What precautions is he taking that you do not like?

Patrick is even more

against killing bugs than I am, perhaps.

I know that's probably something that I've actually taken on from being with him, but my thing is that

the fear or the dislike of bugs is a kind of like constant presence in our household.

Oh.

So I have three main issues, I'd say, that impact our life.

So the first one was probably the first issue from when we started dating two years ago, before we lived together.

Patrick sets these like roach motels, large or small, throughout the house.

He lived on, was it the second floor?

He lived on the second floor of like an interior apartment.

And he still had these like giant roach motels in the kitchen, but they didn't do anything.

Like the cats would just, Patrick's nodding his head, but the cats would just play with them and mess around with them and i just tried to say let's just get rid of these traps you're not doing anything but patrick wanted to keep them we still currently have traps in our kitchen the cats were playing with the bugs or with the roach motels i mean both but most annoyingly was the roach motel because we'd be like watching tv and the cats would be like batting around these cardboard boxes and i just wanted to throw them away

I hope you sent in some pictures of these cats.

We did.

Two of our three we sent in.

All right, there's some evidence here.

I'm checking it now.

And obviously, these photos will all be posted at the Judge John Hodgman showpage at maximumfun.org on our Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

And so Renee, you sent in a picture of Calvin, a lovely cat.

It says here, Calvin with two of our kitchen roach traps.

I only see one roach trap in this picture, but the rule of thumb with roach traps is if you see one, that means there are hundreds of them.

So there's one by, like if you look to the right of the main roach trap that you see, there's kind of one in between our cabinet and our refrigerator.

It's in the dark corner.

oh over there in that dark corner there's another one

there's four

in their kitchen who put these roach traps down that's very poor spacing patrick did too close patrick did patrick you should blame it on calvin for batting them out of place

oh

yeah um and i just don't think we've ever caught a bug what evidence do you have that these roach traps are not working.

Are you looking inside of them?

Are you giving them a

I give them a shake, and I hear nothing.

Patrick, do you think that these roach traps are helping at all or not?

I have seen the roaches stuck in the motel and it's a very unpleasant sight.

If it's the trap I'm thinking about, it's a, yeah, it's a cardboard box with a, like a faux wood panel.

Our current ones.

Oh, that's a different trap than the one I'm looking at in the photo.

Okay, I'm sorry.

I've got that wrong.

I have never seen a roach in that trap because it is sealed.

You really changed your story there.

This is like the Godfather Part 2 all of a sudden.

I never said nothing to nobody.

You're recanting your testimony in real time.

You never saw, I understand you never, because these kinds of, they look like little plastic hockey pucks, and the roaches go in there, and you can't see them once they go in there.

But you have a different kind of roach trap where you have seen at least one roach trapped, right?

Yes.

So there's a trap called a roach motel, which is just, it's open on on two sides.

It's like a cardboard brick, but the floor and the roof are glue.

It's like glue.

And I would see roaches in there, and it was, I mean, at that point, it seemed like you're keeping a roach as a pet because, I mean, they're in there for weeks.

I mean, roaches can live for a long time, and I felt very badly about that.

So I had to choose an alternative.

You prefer the trap where you can't see them die slowly?

Yeah.

I feel like I'm having a hard time getting to the crux of this thing, so I'm just going to talk to Patrick for a second.

You currently currently share a house, correct?

Correct.

How long have you lived in this house?

We've lived in this house for about a year now.

How many roaches have you seen in the wild that is not dying slowly in a glue trap?

And I'm talking about individual sightings.

I'm not going to get into the debate whether it's the same roach

coming and going and

because little Frankie cockroach has got it in for you.

Right.

If you see the roach one day and then you see maybe it's the same roach, but you you see the next day, that counts as two sightings, okay?

So how many sightings of individual roaches have you seen?

So when we first moved in the house, I probably saw three days in a row.

I mean, that's when you first move in a house, you don't want that's not the kind of welcoming you want.

And so after three nights of seeing multiple roaches, I called a pest service.

And I believe Renee's problem with me is that I get onto her about dropping crumbs or stuff.

I like to be preemptive because I like a multi-pronged attack of defense.

And Renee believes that I'm being too strong, too fastidious, really.

So you are saying you saw multiple roaches on multiple days.

I don't need you chiming in, Renee, to say, no, that was only one roach, and he was just waving through the window.

I'm going to believe what Patrick is saying right now.

Do you dispute what Patrick is saying?

Multiple roaches multiple days when you first moved in?

No, when we first moved in a year ago, I'd say we did see a couple in the house for the first week or so that we were there.

And Patrick, is that what spurred putting down the roach motels and the other traps?

The roach sightings that I was seeing, I didn't feel like the roach traps were going to take care of it.

I mean, I just thought they were out about having a great time.

And I thought it was time to call pest control because I just didn't want, I wanted to nip it in the bud.

And did you?

I did, yes.

And what happened?

You know, it's been pretty good, but I don't believe that the spraying alone will take care of all the problems.

I believe in kind of a larger plan to contain the situation, just to prevent.

And this is where we get into the conversation about you trying to police Renee's behavior.

Yes, that's probably about right.

All right.

So this is what I'm hearing.

You saw roaches.

You had roaches.

You called pest control.

They've been spraying.

Also, there are roach motels.

through that combination.

The problem as it existed when you first moved in has been mitigated, but Renee doesn't like the cats playing with the roach motels as toys.

They find that distracting.

And also, you are telling Renee to not drop a bunch of crumbs around because she's trying to, I don't know, find her way back home.

Renee, what's the crumbs issue?

Trying to find a way out of this place.

The bug service, though, it did help us initially.

I don't, we signed up for a monthly, quarterly service service when I'm like, I haven't seen any bugs since that initial time, but now we're back to the crumbs.

So the crumbs,

like I said, I don't think we have a bug problem, but Patrick, he's a very meticulous man and he likes the house, you know, to like run a certain way, which I get, I understand that.

So let's say that I'm watching a show on TV and I feel like having a granola bar.

So I will like grab my granola bar from the pantry.

I'll sit on my couch, you know, like open up, enjoy this granola bar.

And Patrick will ask me, he'll say that that may create crumbs, which the bugs will smell and raid the house, and then we'll have a bug problem again.

My argument is that, I mean, I have lived my entire life not eating a granola bar over a plate, and I have never had a bug problem that wasn't related to the house itself, like already having an issue.

Is there other kinds of food eating and crumb making besides the granola bar on the couch issue that Patrick takes issue with in your behavior?

Very much so.

So, even yesterday, I think, no, it was two days ago or yesterday, we were sitting on the couch, and Patrick had a slice of pizza that he had just reheated.

And so, you know, you have to add a little bit of like Parmesan cheese on top of it.

And I was sitting next to him and I laughed.

I don't know if it was a guffaw, but it was just that, you know, quick exhalation of air out of my nose.

And a little bit of Parmesan cheese hopped off the plate because of the air of my laughter and Patrick was like Renee and he was thinking and like because now there's like tiny little parmesan cheese that is now on the carpet so like this is a pretty regular thing that's like that you breathed heavily out of your nose causing a crumb of parmesan to leap off the pizza onto the carpet and Patrick got upset I mean he wasn't upset it definitely wasn't like we actually had an issue but he you know he brought it up like oh you just spilled crumbs onto the carpet we vacuum pretty regularly i'm like you know what like we'll be good when when we vacuum today like you know it takes care of itself over time i just have this image patrick of you on your hands and knees immediately after that like scouring the carpet as though you lost a contact lens trying to find that palm crumb it can be that way sometimes

you know renee tells a story from her point of view you say i saw multiple roaches over multiple days she says there was one roach that was just gaslighting us you say that pest control and the roach motels have mitigated the bug problem.

Renee says there never was a bug problem.

Renee now says that you police her crumbs.

From your point of view, is what Renee describing accurate?

Did she breathe slightly out of her nose, causing a single Parmesan crumb to leap onto the carpet?

Or did she guffaw in your face and purposefully blow a full half cup of parmesan all over the shag carpeting?

Yeah, yeah, it was more like the ladder a little bit.

It was definitely not a crumb.

I would say it was flying powder.

It went everywhere.

It went everywhere.

I feel like I show restraint though.

I don't necessarily point out all the crumbs that I see flying around.

I'll find coffee beans around and I say to myself, a roach would eat that.

And we have a recycling bin and, you know, I think it's good practice to, you know, clean out pretty well the recyclable and put it in the bin.

And Renee has left ice cream residue, sticky, sugary ice cream residue in the recycling bin.

Where is the recycling bin?

Inside your house or outside?

Like to be taken to the curb?

It's initially in our pantry.

Have you ever seen a roach in there?

I have not.

Have you ever seen a roach notching on a coffee bean that's on the floor?

I have not.

I don't know what happens during the night, though.

So I tried to be on the cautious side.

It seems that way.

Is Renee an untidy person?

I wouldn't say that.

That seems a little too strong.

I would say that she doesn't notice

when things drop on the floor.

For her, it's not that big of a deal.

And for me, I just notice it.

I'm like, wow, there's a piece of...

I don't like, I notice, like, oats and

English muffin crumbs and like pieces of egg.

But, I mean, it's just, like, small stuff.

Do you own plates?

Yes.

You know, it's one thing if you're walking through the house eating an English muffin just, you know, out of your hand, but I'm not sure how you would get a piece of egg on the floor.

It's more so falling from the stove and like sitting under the

stove top, like a little piece.

Mm-hmm.

How often do you clean the kitchen, would you say?

I probably vacuum every day.

Five times a day.

Depends on the day.

I vacuum five times a day and then I bleach everything three times a day while muttering to myself clean clean clean clean

i mean patrick's defense we got a new vacuum i guess a couple months ago and it's one of the really nice handheld like wireless cord free ones not to buzz market or anything like that well you're already buzz marketed roach motel oh that's true go ahead tell us what the vacuum cleaner is because i'm in the market for one i mean the vacuum is it's the best like i enjoy vacuuming just because you know it's powerful it actually works and it just we all have a little wall mount that we put it on and you can vacuum the whole house not remote battery so i think we do vacuum

your the brand you want to know yeah i do oh it's one of the new dysons like we have the little handheld walmart dyson we have the animal one since we have the cats and it'll work and i guess that's why i'm not really worried because we do vacuum so much we do keep a pretty clean house so like for instance the English muffin dust that Patrick's talking about like I eat English muffins for breakfast and so in between me taking it out of the container and putting it into the toaster and then putting it on a plate.

It sounds like you have something against English muffins.

I eat English muffins like

breakfast.

I mean they're great.

It's protein and it's great.

But the little, like what I don't know what it's called, but the little certain

dust, it's like cornflower saying that goes on top of the head.

Cornmeal.

Yeah, like, you know, that kind of will sometimes, I don't notice it because it's so small, but it'll, you know, a couple little dust pieces will sit below below the toaster and I just don't notice them because I don't, you know, I don't think to check.

And Patrick says that not being

more aware of those type of like very small messes will lead to bug problems.

I think we wipe down the kitchen counters fairly often.

Like, I think it'll,

you know, that's what the point of cleaning up is because you make a mess and then you clean it up.

I'm going to be blunt with you, Renee.

The whole thing about you eating a granola bar without a plate on the sofa, that grosses me out personally.

Really?

that sofa is full of granola now, for sure.

No doubt.

I'm coming around to defend you now.

I'm just saying that that's just me, okay?

But like having a few crumbs of English muffin under the toaster, that's kind of standard operating procedure for toasters, pretty much.

Wouldn't you say, Joel?

I got dust on mine.

Yeah, right?

By the way, it's not dust, crumbs.

Crumbs, right.

Let's use words.

Okay, sorry.

Dust is a different thing.

Bread dust.

Yeah, if you have dust coming off of your English muffins, you need to get some new English muffins.

What kind of English muffins do you like?

Thomas's or Bayes?

Or a different brand, Renee?

Thomas's.

Thomas's.

Yeah.

Classic.

Classic.

Classic English muffin.

Bays is pretty good, though.

I like them.

So I would say that that's just standard operating procedure for a toaster area.

It's going to get a little crummy after a while.

You do a little wipe up.

So I guess what I'm asking, Renee is...

You know, I asked Patrick if you were an untidy person, to his point of view.

And he was kind of like, he didn't want to be mean, but yeah, like he's noticing bits of egg.

Would you say that Patrick is a particularly tidy person, Renee?

I would say he's exceptionally tidy.

Yeah, I mean, everybody, you know, we're both human.

There's both times that, I mean, right now, Patrick's been working on a bike project, so our living room right now is like unorganized, but I'd say he's very clean, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying.

I guess I'm trying to determine if Patrick is really scared of bugs or of crumbs and is using bugs as an excuse.

I would have to ask Patrick.

I really don't know.

I'd have to ask.

Well, if only he were here.

Oh no, Patrick, you're here.

Do you find your fear of bugs intrudes on your enjoyment of your day-to-day life?

I actually don't have a fear of bugs.

I just don't like to kill roaches and I do find them.

Well, okay, let me take that back.

Roaches are terrifying.

Now we're getting some.

Complete 180.

Did Renee get you again?

Second recanted testimony.

I just, in general, I try to save bugs.

Like, we have a ton of ladybugs that come in the house, and I'll put them on a paper towel and take them out.

Yeah.

But the problem with a roach is that they're really fast.

They're disgusting.

They're disgusting.

They can go up to three miles per hour.

I looked up facts about roaches whenever I called the bug service, and the facts about roaches are terrifying and I don't think Renee realizes how formidable of an insect they are.

Give me some terrifying roach facts right now.

Okay, I will.

So a roach can eat and will eat anything.

They will eat the glue off the back of a stamp.

They will eat hair.

They eat dust.

They eat anything.

They can live without a head for a week because...

Okay, we're talking about real dust here, right?

Not English muffin dust?

Legit dust?

Yeah.

Yeah, just from off the road.

And you just said that they can live without a head?

For a week, and then they die from not having any water.

But

they can live for a month without any food, but only a week without water.

And I mean, it's just terrifying.

I don't think she realizes that.

Yeah, the coffee bean, the English muffin dust, the oats, the mozzarella dust flying around.

I mean, the roaches, they could be into it.

I mean, they'll eat anything.

It's true.

Stop calling food dust, both of you.

Also in the evidence here, there is a couple of photos.

Here is a photo of one cockroach on the exterior of your house from about five days ago.

Did you submit that, Patrick, I presume, to prove that there's still a threat, a looming threat?

Yes.

When we were walking down the street and right when we walked out of our house,

we saw two roaches just making their way up to our house.

And I mean, just the weather's getting there.

I mean, it could happen.

There's also some photos of art, which I believe is your art, Patrick?

Yes, yes, it is.

And these are, they're beautiful collages that incorporate what look like dead mounted moths.

Yes.

I think it's really cool.

What's going on here?

How long have you made this art?

What are you trying to say?

Tell me about it.

So I think roaches are terrifying, but I do find it interesting that a life form like that exists.

And I do find the different forms of insects to be interesting and beautiful.

And I don't really have a problem with bugs that are deceased and unmoving.

They have these very short lifespans, very fragile things, and I find that kind of a beautiful sentiment.

But roaches are, they're different.

I can't explain it really, except for the harsh facts.

I think the art is very beautiful,

and it expresses to some degree your ambiguity about the insect world.

Would it be fair to say that?

Yes, very much so.

Right.

Your ambiguous feelings about the insect world, I should have said.

Renee, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule?

I would like you to rule that we do not worry about bugs unless there's actually an issue.

And I don't consider seeing a roach in our patio an issue.

And one roach in the kitchen every

four months, I think that comes with the territory of having a home that has a backyard.

So I think unless we actually have like an issue, I don't think we should worry, whether it be paying for routine bug services, setting out traps, and having that anxiety in mind.

I'd rather just not think about it until it actually becomes an issue.

So you would want me to order not only that Patrick calm down, but also that you cease having the quarterly sprayings and get rid of the Roach Motels and just wait until it becomes an issue again?

Get rid of the Roach Motels for sure.

I would like us to reevaluate the bug spray because it is quite a bit of money and I just wonder if it actually helps.

So, re-evaluate the bug spray, potentially tame that down, and then not have like the stress of the crumbs leading to bugs.

Just assume we'll clean it up, it's not going to cause a bug issue.

And Patrick, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me order?

I would just like some acknowledgement of, you know, that it could cause bugs to come out, you know, and that also I think that the spray is worth it.

How much does a spray cost per application?

It's about $4.50 a year.

So it's like a hundred and change.

100 and change per application.

Got it.

Okay.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my glue trap that is my chambers and have a little snack of human hair and dust.

And I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Patrick, did you kill the bugs in your artwork yourself?

I did not, but I rehydrated them and then moved their limbs around.

Okay.

So you're not afraid to touch bugs.

Well, actually, it was an experience.

I wasn't really that into it.

It's not particularly pleasant to feel a dead bug, but I was trying it out.

Renee, are there other pet peeves besides frequent crumbing that Patrick has against you?

Like you don't load the dishwasher correctly, things of that nature.

One of many is that if you're loading the dishwasher and it's an empty dishwasher, you have to load from the back forward.

So whenever you, it gets progressively easier to load.

And also he wants to make sure that the dish sponge drips into the sink and not onto the sink.

Is he trying to like micromanage your life?

Well, no, I mean, it's our life.

So I think it's finding something that works for both of us.

Well, we'll see what the judge has to say about it all in his verdict.

We'll be back in just a minute on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news, we still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lawman.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman emerges from his cocoon into the courtroom and presents his verdict.

I'm all sticky now from that glue trap.

I don't know why I put glue on the floor and ceiling of my chambers.

But I was in that glue trap and I was...

The walls are very thin.

And I could hear you say, Patrick, that you had rehydrated these moths for your artwork?

Yes.

Could you explain a little bit more about where you're getting dehydrated moths to begin with?

So I just get them off the internet.

I'm not really sure.

It's from like a third party.

Yeah,

I get it.

I just didn't know that there was a

market for dehydrated insects that you could then rehydrate and I guess display and use and look kind of like taxidermy, right?

I guess, right?

Yeah, a little bit.

And what's the rehydration process?

Sorry, I'm just fascinated by this.

Yeah, it's pretty simple, actually.

So you can get like just any kind of Tupperware, anything that kind of like holds in the air, and you get like a little piece of wire mesh, and you

so you set down the wire mesh inside, and then you set the bug on top of the wire mesh, and

yeah, and maybe you put like a little bit of Dawn or something so it doesn't get mold.

And then you just wait like 24 hours and the moisture, oh, I'm sorry, you wet the paper towel in in there, and the moisture is trapped, and it rehydrates them, and then their limbs are flexible again.

Wow.

I am glad that my world has now been made larger, knowing that what I should have known all along is that there are people mailing dehydrated bugs from the internet all the time.

That's fantastic.

That's a world I want to live in.

And I get why this exists, right?

Because bugs are fascinating.

They are profoundly alien from us almost more than any other animal, not only because they take so many gross forms, but because they can live without a head for a week.

They have spiracles and stuff.

They take so many forms, and for some reason, we naturally, kind of as a species, appreciate that a ladybug is a beautiful bug that should be saved on a paper towel and let free.

And we even call it a ladybug, which is patriarchal, but it is a suggestion of a compliment, of a figure of beauty.

Whereas a cockroach is a cockroach, and we just all instinctively understand they're disgusting, and they want to eat your hair and your dust, and they're going to crawl into your ears and eat your earwax, which is another true thing about cockroaches.

Didn't even bother to tell Renee, who I frankly find to be quite blasé about the cockroaches.

I was trying to get at some form of the crux here, you know, whether this was an issue of an unhealthy fear of contaminants or a disruptive, irrational fear of cockroaches, how those things tied in together with tidiness and cleanliness, whether Patrick was being unhealthily driven to distraction by his fear.

But the fact that he is, you know, rehydrating moths from the internet and putting them in artwork suggests that he has a healthy appreciation for the insect world, as well as a completely natural revulsion, especially to the cockroach, which are gross creatures that eat garbage and

are unclean.

And you don't want to have them around in a perfectly natural way.

At no point could I find any hint, and again, I'm not a mental health professional, and I don't claim to be, but I didn't even find even an intuitive red flag being raised towards a kind of disruptive phobia, or that Patrick was somehow suffering from his preoccupation.

I think he has a rational and reasonable desire to not have cockroaches around.

And I think that I'm also not a pest control professional, but the rule of thumb is that if you see one roach or you see one mouse, there are lots more around that you do not see.

They're not all the same mouse or cockroach.

I say mouse because I have dealt with two major mouse infestations and it is not fun to deal with and they are not fun to have around the house and it is not fun to be sitting, you know, and in the kitchen and watching a mouse stride through your pantry like it owns the place.

That is gross.

And similarly, I've dealt as a resident of New York City

most of the the time.

I dealt with a serious cockroach issue in my studio apartment when I was a second apartment I lived in in New York.

Where one time I came home and found my cat yowling with alarm at the closed bathroom door.

And I opened the bathroom door and there were six palmetto bugs just crawling around in the bathtub that the cat sensed somehow.

It was terrifying and disgusting.

And it felt as though I was in the movie Aliens and it is not cool.

And I know what it takes to get rid of an infestation, even a minor infestation, and to maintain barriers to keep pests from coming back.

I don't think that Patrick has done anything out of the ordinary when it comes to mitigating bugs.

He has not turned it into a street fight.

He has not smushed them all over the floor, making it look like dirt.

He has, in fact, done the pretty typical thing, call pest control, have a regular spraying happen, supplement that with roach traps.

None of this seems to be particularly out of the ordinary.

Now, Renee, I would say that your tolerance of cockroaches is a little bit higher than Patrick's.

Not abnormally so.

I think that there is something healthy in the way that you accept that when you live in a house that has a backyard, you recognize that human civilization is arbitrary.

Nature hates you, does not recognize the boundaries you have set, and the bugs will try to get in.

Because they know that's where the crumbs are.

I wouldn't say that you necessarily have more crumbs than anyone else in the world.

It does seem to me, Rene, that your English muffin dust issue around the toaster is not unusual.

I personally have something of a peccadillo about eating food on a couch without a plate.

I think that that is an invitation to grossness, never mind bugs.

But I don't think that your house sounds like it's out of control with the food dust.

But in no way, I'm afraid to say, Renee, would I ever suggest

that the solution solution to this conflict is to stop spraying and get rid of other supplemental pest control?

This is not in Patrick's imagination.

You saw the bugs, you decided what you're going to do about them, you did it, and you see fewer bugs.

That's success.

I will say that those roach motels should not necessarily be out there on the floor where the cats can play with them.

That doesn't seem good.

It's distracting and annoying.

You should put them in the backs of those cupboards.

Put them in the dark where the cockroaches are likely to be.

And maybe you catch some or maybe you don't.

But whatever it is you're doing is working.

So that now leads me to the question of can I order Patrick to be less anxious about this?

That is more difficult because, of course, Patrick is not in charge of his own anxiety.

I'm glad to say that I don't think his anxiety is totally in charge of him, but he's going to feel anxious about the things he's going to feel anxious about.

I can't order him to not feel anxious about that stuff, but I can order him to not take it out on you.

And I think that it's important in a cohabitating relationship that one person not be policing the other person's habits too much.

That said, I think you should eat your granola bars over a plate.

Make an effort.

You know that drives him to distraction, so it's okay to make an occasional gesture of, I see and feel your pain.

I'm going to eat this granola bar over a plate or a bowl.

And make sure that I don't laugh too hard at your pizza and spray the parmesan all over the place.

The challenge of living with Patrick, he's an adorable guy, and he loves making bug art and he sometimes loves other bugs, but sometimes hates cockroaches and sometimes will say one thing and then turn around in the same sentence and say a completely different thing and recant his testimony.

He's a gentle soul who lives in the moment and doesn't quite know his own mind all the time.

But there's one thing I do think, which is that he hates those bugs.

He hates those cockroaches in particular.

So I have to find in Patrick's favor.

I'm going to say, keep the pest control service.

I would consult with the pest control service about where those traps should go.

I would get them out of the cat's way.

I would eat a granola bar on a plate.

But Patrick, you need to be chill about food dust around the toaster and that sort of thing.

And if you see something you don't like, do something about it.

Don't complain to Renee about it.

Just wipe it up.

Take care of it.

That's your anxiety management.

You don't have to put your anxiety on her.

And that is my ruling.

This is the sound of a gavel.

And that scares me, Burry.

It really does.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Patrick, you get to keep your bug spray and your roach motels, but you're willing to move the roach motel to a more discreet, less cat-friendly location?

I absolutely am.

They are hideous.

Are you pleased with the ruling?

Yes, I thought it was a strong and fair ruling.

What about you, Renee?

Are you willing to use a plate when you eat your granola bars?

I will use a plate.

It can be an experiment and see how many crumbs they catch on this plate.

But yes, especially if it's something that is a relatively small thing, we can find a, you know, the traps and the bug service.

It's a small part of our day-to-day lives.

But if we can find a way to make our day-to-day bug battles a little bit more fair and even, then I'm okay with that.

I mean, what if you had like an apple or a banana?

Do you need a plate then?

Patrick, what do you think?

Grapes?

Fruit's pretty safe.

It's not very crumbly.

I say that's plate-free.

Okay.

We'll figure that out.

You know, we can kind of chill out about everything.

That's an easy thing for me to implement, especially if it leads to a more relaxed living environment.

Renee, Patrick, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another case securely trapped in a roach motel.

Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Matthew Tolzman for naming this week's episode La Cucaracha.

If you'd like to name a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out a call for submissions.

Follow us on Twitter.

I'm at Monte Belmonte.

Hodgman's at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets.

Hashtag JJ Ho.

And check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode.

And we're on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman.

Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff.

This week's episode was recorded by two Joels, Joel Block at the Blockhouse in Austin, Texas, and by Joel Mann at WERU in Orland, Maine.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

You ready for some swift justice, Hodgman?

I am absolutely ready.

Give it to me.

Shannon says, my husband refuses to put away my clothes Marie Kondo style and just smashes them in the drawer, even though we've condoed the rest of the house.

Oh, now, Monty Belmonte, I know that you know what this person is talking about.

Yes, I do.

What about you, Joel Man?

Do you follow Marie?

No.

Marie Kondo?

Do not understand.

She wrote a book called The Everyday Magic of Tidying Up Up and has a show on Netflix about how to get rid of clutter in your life.

And a lot of it is about folding clothes in a particular way.

So he's just cramming them in the drawer.

But apparently he's just smashing them in the drawer.

That's not right.

You should fold them.

You might not have to fold them away kondo style.

Why is he folding her clothes?

I fold my wife's clothes.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, people divide labor in different ways.

I don't know how it is here in Maine.

We fold our own clothes.

That's exactly right.

Maine is so thoroughly misanthropic that no one lets anyone else touch anybody else's clothes.

They hand wash them all on washboards and hang them out to dry, but the sun never comes out there to dry them.

That's right.

We live together, but it doesn't mean we fold each other's clothes, do anything for each other, or speak to each other.

Just don't touch my clothes.

That's the everyday magic of manning it up, the Joel Mann method.

I would say this.

On the one hand, yes, you should not smash clothes into a drawer.

But on the other hand, I'm not sure that Shannon is a reliable narrator here.

That's such a loaded word that it seems to me that she is using some poetic license there to influence me to rule against her husband.

When, from my point of view, the Mari Kondo method of folding clothes, and particularly socks, is needlessly fussy.

It also requires you to thank the clothing for its service, I believe.

And I don't have time for that.

They're just my socks.

And the other point is, he's putting away your clothes.

It's a rule of the Judge John Hodgman podcast that the person doing the work gets to choose how the work is done.

But that's kind of passive-aggressive, isn't it?

Well, if he is actually mashing the clothes into the drawer, that should stop.

That should stop.

If he is folding the clothes more or less neatly, but not using the Mari Kondo style of folding, then Shannon should not be complaining.

She should be grateful that her husband is doing this work.

And if she would like her clothes folded Mari Kondo style, then she should do it herself rather than insist he do it.

I commandeered all household laundry in the Belmonte household because I did not like how it was being done by other members of the household.

And now it has become my like weekend ritual.

Yeah.

And I'm sure you do a great job.

And the point is, you saw something in the house that you wanted done a certain way and you just did it yourself rather than complaining about the other person

or taking them.

I did that.

You did it?

What did you tell me about it?

You cook food.

You cook food, right?

Because no one else would cook it for me.

That's right.

And who knows why?

Joe Mann lives alone.

Sad.

What's your favorite thing to go sad?

That's not true.

Crab cakes.

Crab cakes, right?

Crab cakes.

I make them great crab cake.

What's your secret?

Crab.

You have to come over and have a crab cake, and then you'll know the secret.

That's never going to happen.

Then hamburgers for you.

The secret is I murder you.

As soon as you come over for one of my famous crab cakes, you'll learn my secret.

And never tell it.

Monty Belmonte, you're coming back with us this summer, right?

You're going to be back on the podcast this summer.

Yes, I am.

Very excited.

So there's Nod Goodbye.

We'll come back with Monty Belmonte of WRSI The River 93.9 FM in Northampton, Massachusetts.

Monty, anything coming up at the Shea Theater in Turner's Falls that we need to know about for the summer?

There's all sorts of fun stuff happening there.

We got a new movie projector, so we're going to do like a sing-along at the Shea movie thing.

We've got Natalie Merchant playing at the end of July, but that's already sold out.

Sadly, for you.

And Lori McKenna, who's a great Massachusetts singer-songwriter, written a lot of huge country hits, but a great singer-songwriter in her own right, will be performing there, as well as a celebration of Native American culture with Joanna Shenandoah and the Nolambika Project in August.

Listen to Monty every morning on WRSI The River.

Can you listen to it online?

Yes, you can.

And can I shamelessly plug my own podcast?

Please.

If you go to where podcasts are available and look up Monty Belmonte, I call it a week of mornings.

It's like my show without all the annoying music and commercials.

It's my conversations with people who I've interviewed and listeners and things like that.

Fantastic.

And Joel Mann, do you have a podcast?

No.

Okay.

But I am down at the Pentagoet every Tuesday with my jazz group night and day.

Hope you can make it.

That's right.

The Pentagoet Inn in Castine, Maine.

Try the crab cakes.

Try the crab cakes.

And of course,

you DJ here at WERU once in a while.

Community radio.

I'm a program director, Brooklyn.

Oh, excuse me.

I'm so sorry.

Congratulations.

That's why the station is now 100% Joe Bird and the field hippies.

Got it.

Were you.org?

If you don't happen to live in the Orland Pangor area, you can go to weru.org and check out what's happening here.

This is one of the last true freeform community radio stations.

Sadly, but that's true.

Always end on a high note.

Thanks, Joel.

Thanks, Monty.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodman podcast.

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