Juris-diction

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, jurisdiction.

Melissa brings the case against her father, Mark.

She complains that in classic weird dad fashion, Mark intentionally mispronounces words and brand names.

Mark says his pronunciations are simply regional dialects.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

The chambers of

We're about to discover that sometimes the product of man's talent and genius can walk amongst us untouched by the normal ravages of time.

This is Judge Hodgman's robot bailiff, Jesse, built to function as well as artistic perfection.

But in a moment, Judge John Hodgman will discover that perfection is relative, that even robot bailiffs have to be paid for, and very shortly will be shown exactly what is the bill.

Robot bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Melissa and Mark, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he insists that in Massachusetts it's pronounced Judge John Hodgman?

Yes.

Sure.

Very well, Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Well, I really enjoyed your flinty New England accent there, Jesse.

What are you doing there?

Gonna go listen to Judge Hogeman.

Yeah, I thought I was there eating scallops in Horvoord Yord.

Melissa and Mark, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours.

Favors, can you name the piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered the courtroom?

Mark, you're the dad.

Or as we would say in New England, a region of the United States, northeast of the United States, Mark.

why don't you guess first?

Well,

the short answer is I don't know, but...

Not acceptable.

Then, given that, I will go with my second choice, which is it's a quote from Rosie the Robot on the Jetsons.

Rosie the what?

Robot.

The robot?

Yes.

Rosie.

She cleaned the house.

She cooked the meals.

No,

I know that character and I know what a robot is, sir.

I'll put that into the guest book.

Rosie the Rogue.

But.

Now, daughter Melissa, it is your turn to guess.

What is your guess?

I'm going to guess that it is from an episode of Futurama.

Futurama.

It's a futuristic show.

And I'll enter that into the guest book.

Robot Bailiff Jesse Thornton, you're not a robot.

You're a wonderful human being.

I'm sorry that I cast that aspersion aspersion upon you.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

I like to think that I have a full range of human emotion.

I'm sure you would like to feel that.

We all want to feel that way.

But only we humans can, Jesse.

I shouldn't call you a robot an aspersion, because in the future, of course, with artificial intelligence reaching the Turing test closer and closer every day, soon enough we'll have artificial beings around us at all times.

But right now, we're all flesh and blood.

I'm an android at worst.

That's right.

But right now, we are all flesh and blood, and humans, like us, make mistakes.

That is why I can say all guesses are wrong.

You were wrong, dad, Mark, and daughter Melissa.

Though you were on a certain track that was not entirely wrong, it was a television show that I was quoting from.

It was The Twilight Zone.

Surprise you guys didn't catch the Twilight.

It's an opening narration by Rod Serling.

That I was watching, and from an episode specifically called

The Lateness of the Hour, which, of course, you will know was episode eight in season number two, airing on December 2nd, 1960.

I had all that information allayed before me, in case one of you actually guessed correctly, so that I could psych you out on some small detail.

But I didn't have to, or detail, I might say,

because

you were all wrongs.

This is one that I watched recently with my son as we were leading up to the Halloween.

We were watching a bunch of Zones.

This is one where there's a dad and a mom and a daughter, and they live in a manor attended by lifelike robots, androids, if you might say, Jesse Thorne,

who feed them and serve them and give them massages and such.

It opens with a rather disturbing massage scene, which not something you can say about many a Twilight Zone.

And I was shocked to my core, Jesse Thorne.

upon watching this particular episode because as listeners may know and surely you know Jesse we've been doing this podcast for now

1500 years.

Only because we are immortal robots are we allowed to continue.

But we've been saying robot as a joke since the beginning.

Isn't that right, Jesse?

Yeah, I mean, I can't even remember a time when I didn't say robot.

And I didn't know where I picked that up from, and I don't know where you got it from, Jesse, but this was one of those moments where you confront the origin of your joke, in this case being Rod Serling would only say robot.

And he said robot twice in that opening narration.

And throughout the episode, it's robot this and robot that.

I feel like anytime we have to clarify points of history with regard to the Twilight Zone, we should be texting with Dana Gould.

No.

Hello, Dana.

I hope you're listening.

I listen to your podcast.

Ours comes out four times a month.

How about yours?

The Dana Gould hour.

Longer than an hour and only once a month.

Take a listen to it.

But now we come to the crux of our matter, which is Mark and Melissa.

And Mark's already displayed a tendency towards alternate pronunciations of things.

Robot is a word that you say.

Is that not so, Mark?

Definitely.

Yeah.

Well, you say a lot of things different than your daughter would like you to say them.

Melissa, you bring the case against your dad.

What's going on?

He has

his own ways of pronouncing certain words that I believe are just

incorrect.

And yet he insists that they are alternate pronunciations when I just, I don't think they're really alternate pronunciations.

I think they're just wrong.

Well, in the case of robot, for example, will you say that word again for me, sir, Mark?

Robot.

Right.

Robot.

Robot.

Yeah, that is an alternate pronunciation.

That

has been defined by usage, Rod Serling.

It is primarily used by podcast half-comedians like me and Jesse to be a drug.

I actually don't think he's saying it the same way you're saying it, sir.

Are you saying I can't believe my own mechanical ears?

I think he's actually saying a different alternate pronunciation that is maybe less well-known than the one you are saying.

Than the archaic sort of jokey pronunciation that I'm using?

Okay.

Well, you're seated there with your dad at Argo Studios in New York City, correct?

Yes, I am.

All right.

Are you within poking distance of him?

Could you poke him in the arm?

I can poke him in the hand.

Okay.

I want you to poke your dad, and each time you poke him, I want him to say the word R-O-B-O-T

and do that two or three times so I can hear it a couple of times.

But you have to poke him to make him do it like he's a robot himself.

Okay.

Robot.

Robot.

Robot.

Robot.

Thank you.

I have my new ringtone.

I appreciate that.

Okay.

There is, you know, I stand corrected as much as I hate to say it, Melissa.

That is a slightly different pronunciation than Jesse's and my robot.

That is, it's more like robot,

robot,

robot.

There's almost a

on the row, even.

Jesse Thorne, how do you pronounce the word

W-H-I-T-E?

Well, I mean, for

theater school, I had to learn to pronounce H's before W's.

H's before W's?

Yeah, if a word starts with a WH in elocution class, they teach you to pronounce the H first, so it would be pronounced white.

White.

Or whom.

To whom are you giving that white scarf?

To Whit Stillman.

Oh, the director of Metropolitan?

Yeah, he loves scarves.

I don't doubt it for a second.

Okay, you did put a little of that elocution school bit on robots, sir.

There are some other words that I have a list of here that Melissa has submitted in her evidence, and I'm going to spell them.

And then, Melissa, poke your father three times and sir, you pronounce the word three times.

Are you ready, you guys?

This is going to be a fun game.

Okay.

R-E-F-U-G-E.

Refuge.

Refuge.

Refuge.

S-A-L-S-A.

Salsa.

Salsa.

Salsa.

P-R-O-G-R-A-M.

Program.

Program.

Program.

O-U-T-S-I-D-E.

Outside.

Outside.

Outside.

D-A-I-R-Y.

Dairy.

Dairy.

Dairy.

Thank you very much.

Jesse, I think we have a whole new Max Fun podcast here.

Yeah.

Learn to speak bad English.

No.

Just hypnotize yourself with Melissa's dad.

I was really into that.

I was, the hairs were starting to rise up on my forearms.

Or as you would say, sir, forearms, forearms, forearms.

Dairy sounded pretty good to me.

Melissa, what's your complaint with that last one?

D-A-I-R-Y?

Instead of dairy, he says dairy, like it would be spelled D-E-R-R-Y.

That sounded pretty good to me.

Okay.

That complaint is stricken from the record.

But there were some other unusual ones there.

And you say that he chooses to do this.

Mark, is that true?

Are you choosing to pronounce these things, or were you raised pronouncing these words in this slightly different way?

Well, I think I've said them that way my whole life.

I don't think I just said one day, let me start changing pronunciations to annoy Melissa.

I mean, not that there's anything wrong with annoying Melissa.

No, of course there aren't.

But I didn't set out with that purpose.

So I think these are the ways I say these words.

So this is not done intentionally.

Melissa, do you believe him?

No.

Oh, all right.

Your dad is a liar.

Go ahead.

I think he's aware that no one else says words that way, and he still chooses to say them that way anyway, because

when I've brought up in the past that I think those are not correct pronunciations, he continues to say them that way.

So I think that that is therefore a choice.

Robot or robot is a little unusual refuge is that seems reasonably uh to be an alternative pronunciation salsa that's a new one on me program is pretty typical why does this bother you so much

it just gets under my skin um i will say that there some of them offend me more than others and salsa is the one that made me decide to take him to court.

Well, I don't blame you there.

As I have X'd out Derry, I am definitely putting a hard double underline under salsa.

We will revisit that in a moment.

Okay.

But is it just pronunciation or are there other language issues that you have with your dad?

So besides some of these words,

it's not exactly the same thing, but I feel like the underlying issue is the same.

There's a brand of soda.

You can say brand names now.

We no longer tie ourselves into canots around that.

Okay.

One of his favorite favorite sodas to drink is Coke Zero.

And he insists on calling it Zero Coke and reversing the order of the words.

It was actually named after Zero Mostel.

It just drives me bonkers.

I mean, because he drinks that a lot and he'll be out and he'll order Zero Coke or he'll say he's going to the fridge to get a Zero Coke.

And that's just not what it's called.

All right.

Would you say that the primary thing about it that drives you bonkers is how much more fun your dad is than you?

Oh,

because zero Coke is a home run.

Oh, you know what?

Harsh but fair, Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

I would not say that that has anything to do with who is more fun.

Well, but here is the thing.

This is a situation where, unlike the mispronunciation of words,

Changing the name of a known brand product could cause slight damage insofar as it might confuse service personnel.

Sir,

why do you call Coke Zero, which is by the way called Coke Zero, Zero Coke?

What is your weird dad theory for why you are right and the rest of the world is wrong, including Coca-Cola?

Well, actually, Coca-Cola would understand that I'm right if they would just ask me about it because they have Diet Coke and they have cherry Coke and they have vanilla Coke and they have zero Coke.

It makes makes total sense.

They're the ones who seem to have accidentally mixed that one up and I'm just trying to set the record straight.

Have you written any sternly worded letters, sir?

Surprisingly, no, because I write lots of letters.

I'm not sure why I haven't, but I think maybe that's my next assignment.

All right.

Sidebar.

What kind of letters does your dad write, Melissa?

He writes letters anytime there's a customer service issue where he thinks he's right, which honestly, for the most part, he is usually right when he does write these letters.

But when he wants to write a wrong, he sends a letter.

Can either of you, Mark or Melissa, name a time when your dad has written and writed a wrong?

Which was a hard sentence to say, by the way.

Yes, I'll tell you one that I recently wrote.

There's a magazine that I subscribe to, and it comes with inserts that they use that sticky glue that's supposed to peel off.

And every month I get the magazine, and there's a very thick envelope glued in.

in and every time I remove it no matter how careful I am it tears the page of the paper so I started with an email to the magazine and actually got a response from somebody in circulation that they're working on the problem and he apologized but he said in the meanwhile can I send you a free book and I said that would be lovely so a few months went by didn't get the book I wrote another email and got a response from somebody else saying that the previous fellow is no longer there and what are you talking about and I sent him the previous correspondence and said it's not even about the book.

I wish it'd fix the problem, but I never did get the book.

Did not hear back from him and then I wrote the publisher and I now have the book.

I have a few follow-up questions.

One, may I presume you are retired?

I'm semi-retired.

You have some time on your hands though, it would seem.

Yes, I do.

I say this with envy, sir, not condensation.

Condensation?

That's a malapropism.

Condescension.

There are working people, Judge Hodgman, who make time to write many letters.

Sea captains on long voyages.

Sure.

Benjamin Franklin in France.

Soldiers in the Civil War, for example.

Yeah, the television documentary, The Civil War.

Next follow-up question.

What was the magazine, please?

The Forward.

The Forward.

The newspaper, right?

Would you say?

Well, it's now a magazine.

Oh, it is, excuse me.

More from the Yiddish paper to an English paper and now a monthly magazine.

Lovely.

And what was the book that was promised to you, which you finally received?

It's basically a history of the forward.

Oh, cool.

My old friend and former client when I was a literary agent, Blake Eskin, used to be a reporter for The Forward.

It's a very storied publication, and I'm glad they take their customer service seriously.

I'm sorry that the Coca-Cola company has not taken advantage of the hotline that you have set up to your desk to ask you what you think of their branding decision, their very clear branding decision, to release a different sugar-free soda called Coke.

Originally, it was Coke Zero, now Coke Zero Sugar.

In fact, I have one of them that I'm going to go get right now.

And believe me, I don't get any money from Coca-Cola, nor would I want any from Coca-Cola for this podcast.

I'm just doing this despite Moxie.

I'll be back in a moment.

Oh, he really did leave.

We'll be back in just a moment on Judge John Hodgman.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

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Yeah, I'm talking about entree bowls, but you know what?

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Welcome back.

Let's get back to the courtroom for more justice.

Okay, I'm back with my own evidence here.

And it is very clearly labeled on the front, Coca-Cola, zero sugar, and then on the back, where they usually have the more diminutive cutesy term, it says Coke Zero.

Sir, can you acknowledge that when you were saying zero Coke that you were doing something simply to wind the world up to watch it spin in front of you?

Well, it's fun to do that.

But you mentioned the new branding that refers to it as Zero Sugar Coca-Cola.

And looking at the can that I'm looking at, that's what it says, Zero Sugar Coca-Cola.

So they're obviously moving in my direction.

In a little while, the word sugar will disappear, and we'll be right into Zero Coke.

Well, language is a living language, after all.

Do you have a can in front of you, sir?

Well, I have a picture of a can.

Not quite as tasty, but.

You sent in an evidence, which is pictures of cans of different kinds of Coke.

And I'm not sure that I'm going to put this picture up on our Instagram at judgejohnhodgman, instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman or on our show page at maximumfund.org because I don't even be posting any advertisements for Coke.

But it is true that you send in a photo of various cans of Coke.

And in this one can of Coke that has zero sugar, Coca-Cola.

Zero sugar is above Coca-Cola.

Now, I don't want to go can to can with you, sir, but I'm holding a can right now, as I say, that I purchased within days ago, and it says Coca-Cola Zero Sugar.

And on the back, it says Coke Zero, and it says copyright 2018.

I think everyone understands that this is supposed to be Coke Zero.

I think you are purposefully doing this to drive people up a tree for your own amusement.

And we'll set this part of the case to rest.

This is the sound of a gavel.

That is all for that.

So that part of the case settled, we now turn to the miss or alternate pronunciations, or that is the decision I have to make.

So, Melissa, you want me to order your dad to say words differently to stop talking funny?

Yes, I do.

Well, obviously, if I determine that he has been using these pronunciations simply to annoy you, Melissa, I will feel an incredible sympathy to Mark, but I will probably rule in your favor.

But if I determine that he uses these pronunciations and he has come to them naturally in his life, Well, then there's nothing I can do.

It might be part of his background.

Sir, are these pronunciations part of your background?

Is this a regionalism?

Where are you from?

I'm from New Orleans.

Oh, all right.

I should have been able to tell from your accent.

Well, there's part of the problem.

Every time since I came up to New York and people find out that I'm from New Orleans, the first thing I get from them is, and definitely got this from all of my wife's family who's from up here, you don't sound like you're from New Orleans because they expect me to sound like I'm from the South because they don't know how we talk in New Orleans.

Where do you live in New York?

Long Island.

Yeah.

I'm sorry, Long Island.

Long Island.

Yeah.

Way I'm supposed to say it now.

There is so little

New Orleans or Louisiana signifiers in your voice.

There is no jambalaya in your voice.

There is no Paul Prudhome magic seasoning in your voice at all.

And there is so much Long Island and New York in your voice.

How long have you lived in New York?

I've lived in New York now

for a little over 30 years.

Wow.

Were you raised in New Orleans or thereabouts?

Yes.

I raised in New Orleans, went to school in New Orleans, and only moved up here after I got married.

What about your family?

Where's your family from?

My mother is from Cajun Country

outside of New Orleans.

My father is from Louisville, Kentucky.

Wow.

All right.

Did you ever have any kind of southern accent at all or any kind of New Orleans accent?

Or do you believe you do?

I believe that I do have a New Orleans accent.

I don't have a Southern accent because you don't get Southern accents in New Orleans.

You You have to go outside of New Orleans to other parts of Louisiana or the South to get the Southern accent.

But that's not typical in New Orleans.

New Orleans is actually, a real New Orleans accent is much closer to a Brooklyn accent.

And there's a theory that it's because the first teachers in New Orleans were the Catholic nuns who came from Brooklyn.

Brooklyn.

Well, I love this theory.

Hey, you guys want to go get some beignets?

I'm walking over here through the french quarter i'm laissezing les bon ton roulette over here hey

melissa i have to say there there's something

so

charming and preposterous and also true seeming about that theory because you know i've spent some time in new orleans and i met some people who grew up there and they don't talk the way you speak mark

But there is a different kind of New Orleans accent that has that kind of Brooklyn patter to it that is not a classic southern drawl.

That's true.

But it is not the way you sound.

I'm not saying that you're faking or lying or anything else.

I just think it's fascinating.

Well, a true New Orleans accent is.

Yeah, give me what you would hear as a true New Orleans accent.

If you were going to go all the way back to your roots and say, I'm going to go to Burgundy and have a muffaletta.

And then I'm going to go play some stickball.

Well, the true New Orleans accent is what they call a yacht accent.

Coming from the phrase where yacht.

And the yachts would say, so this Sunday I'm going down to the choich and after that i'm going to make some groceries and then me and my mom are going to go over by my dad and we're going to have a good time yeah all those things you say are true that the choich and everything and i've heard that down there but it's wow it's uh you've do you do you feel that you've really lost your accent

well i never had a strong yat accent but i have bits and pieces and and i must say i do say y'all

and don't understand the concept of you guys.

So that is part of the South that definitely is part of New Orleans as well.

So you know that I am a fan of heritage and strange regionalisms.

So if you were to claim that your pronunciation of robot and refuge and program are all part of your New Orleans heritage, I would be hard-pressed to rule against you.

Is that what's going on here, sir?

I'll remind you you're under fake oath.

Well, on those kinds of words, I can't specifically say that.

My brother, for some reason, does not say those words that way, and we grew up together.

So I can't tell you specifically that salsa is the way that that word is said in New Orleans, but I think that the way I speak is informed by whatever I heard growing up.

Do you think anyone in New Orleans said the word salsa before 1985?

No, I think they just said ramelade sauce.

All right.

So where did salsa come from?

Not sure how to answer that.

From my brain.

From your brain.

You appreciate that that is not the way anyone says it.

I'm going to get letters for that, I think.

Right, Jesse?

Aren't we going to get some letters for that?

Yeah, that was a pretty general statement.

I would appreciate that it's not a common pronunciation.

Have you ever heard someone else say it in the wild of Long Island?

I can't say that I have.

Salsa.

Salsa.

It's a Spanish word.

Salsa, meaning sauce.

Right.

Yeah.

As long as we're speaking of Spanish words, I would love to mention another brand name that he says incorrectly.

Oh, Porfavor.

Which is the restaurant Chipotle.

Sure.

He likes to say Chipotle.

Is that true?

I do like to say that.

And I will also say that my dad actually does speak some Spanish, so he can't really claim that he just doesn't understand how to pronounce Spanish correctly because he speaks some Spanish and then still will say that the restaurant is called Chipotle.

And indeed, Melissa, you submitted some evidence as well.

Again, a highly branded photograph.

In this case,

it's an ad for Chipotle, as this podcast is rapidly becoming as well.

And what is the most significant part of this ad that you wanted to send me?

It's largely a text copy.

At the bottom of the ad, it actually says it is pronounced chi-pote le, and it divides it into syllables, and it says L-A-Y.

In fact, it says, in case you're wondering, it's chi-pote-le.

And, you know, normally when you're showing a phonetic pronunciation, you would capitalize the portion that is supposed to be accented and print in lowercase the portion that is off the accent.

So normally it would be chi-pote-le, right?

The P-O-A-T in this phonetic pronunciation should be capitalized, but it's all all capitalized as if to reinforce to your dad, this is how you say it.

Chip, pot, le.

Chip, pot, le.

Chip, pot, le.

And no one's poking me right now.

Sir,

you've had some Spanish, I understand.

Is that correct?

That's correct.

Si.

Si, Claro que si.

So you know that salsa is pronounced salsa.

You know that chipotle is pronounced chipotle.

This is a willful mispronunciation, is it not?

I will accept that on the restaurant chipotle that it is

willful.

I find you in condense of court.

Go on.

I wouldn't agree that that's the case with salsa, because that's a word that I've said that way for a very long time.

I don't know why I say chipotle,

and it definitely helps that it got Melissa's attention.

Uh-huh.

Which would bring us back to the zero coke, even though I've apparently been ruled out on that one.

And that's why I'm saying that it's all the same underlying issue.

How old are you, Melissa?

I am 33.

And Mark, you were old enough to have a 33-year-old daughter.

I am 64.

Oh, okay.

And do you have any other children?

Yes, I have a daughter who is 35.

Right.

And 33.

And so Melissa is your youngest child?

Correct.

She's your baby.

That's right.

She's grown and in the world.

Very much.

Are you concerned that if you don't say salsa or zero coke, that Melissa will no longer pay attention to you and drift even further away?

What parent wouldn't be?

Into the dark, as they say in Spain, into the darkness of La Nochi.

Melissa, do you feel that this is being done specifically to capture your attention?

I think to an extent, but I'm sure he says the words this way to other people too.

I know he says words this way in front of my mother.

And you sent in some evidence as well, which is a rather lengthy affidavit from your mother, also decrying these pronunciations.

It is so long that it feels like she's been waiting decades to write this.

So I can't read all of it, but I'll read a little bit.

I've been married for 37 years to a wonderful man who annoys me with his incorrect pronunciation.

Don't get me wrong.

I'm not talking about his charming New Orleans accent, which I love, also, which I'm not sure exists, and which gets much stronger when we visit that fair city.

What annoys me the most is his purposeful changing of either pronunciation or word placement.

Zero Coke instead of Coke Zero.

And I think it's a power and control thing.

He does it because he likes to see people's reactions.

Interesting.

That's your mother, an assigned affidavit.

Is that correct, Melissa?

That is correct.

Do you agree with her?

I do.

All right.

Mark, can I have you pronounce a phrase for me?

Sure.

I'll have the kung pao chicken.

I'll have the kung pao chicken.

It does seem to roll right off his tongue, does it not, Jesse?

It does.

It seems fluid.

Sir, have you ever gone to a restaurant and ordered a zero Coke from a service person?

Well, not at a restaurant, but it comes up frequently on airplanes.

That tends to be the place that I am regularly ordering a zero Coke,

apparently to the chagrin of my family.

Well, also, you know, you appreciate that the person serving you is not a robot and has a full range of human emotions and can also feel chagrin.

Well, that's true, but on the other hand, they've always handed me the zero coke, so it's not a problem.

Have they ever said, I'm sorry, I don't understand.

I'm just trying to wheel this impossibly narrow cart down an aisle full of people who are afraid of dying and keep them as happy as possible until we can land in this incredibly stressful situation.

Well, not exactly in those words, but there was one time when we were flying with Melissa and the flight attendant did seem to have a problem with my request.

What happened, Melissa?

I don't remember all of the details, but I remember that she gave him a very hard time about it and almost didn't give it to him and I think made him ask for the correct drink.

I do remember feeling very vindicated that for once someone kind of put him in his place about it.

Did you ever pick up any of your dad's language growing up, Melissa?

Did you ever say salsa or programming?

I never said salsa, but I did used to say robut.

The way I would, if I was going to be phonetically spelling it, it would be more like R-O-B-U-T, robut.

And I did used to say robut

for my whole childhood.

I just assumed that was the way that the word was pronounced.

And at some point in my 20s, someone pointed out to me that it's an O and not a U and that I was saying it incorrectly.

And I

was trying to figure out why did I say it that way.

And I realized it was the pronunciation my dad always said growing up.

And then I changed the way that I said that word because I realized I was wrong.

To prove as a non-robot that humans can change.

Yes.

Did you find this?

Well, I don't know how you say it, Melissa.

Do you say childhood trauma or childhood trauma?

I would say trauma.

Jason Thorne, have you ever ever heard someone say trauma?

They say it.

Doctors do.

Doctors say that?

I've heard a doctor say trauma.

A real doctor or one of those

like I got an honorary PhD for speaking at a university, doctors.

I've heard trauma before, and I'll bet you I'm going to get some letters saying that salsa is a thing, too.

Why does this bother you so much, Melissa?

I mean, so much that you would take it to a podcast, unless you just feel like being on a podcast.

Because there's an element of my dad just feeling like he wants to be right about it.

And I just don't think he's right about some of these words.

Your mother said that it was about power and control.

Do you agree?

And if so, why?

Honestly, I would say it's more my dad does not like to ever admit he's wrong.

So if you want to say that that has to do with power, maybe, but I think it's just inherently he

does not like to say he's wrong and he will be defensive about it.

Do you have an example of him not willing to admit that he was wrong in the past?

Maybe around language or something else.

So

he very wonderfully cooked me a dinner for my birthday a couple of years ago.

And it was a very complicated recipe.

And

I am not saying this in any way to discount the fact that he is a wonderful cook.

And I love that he made me dinner.

But the recipe called for fresh beans and he used dried beans and then complained how the recipe was faulty because it took way too long for the dish to cook.

And he kept blaming the recipe and saying that the recipe didn't explain things properly.

And he was very disappointed because it was this established cookbook.

And then I looked at the recipe and realized that he just kind of bought the wrong bean product, but he didn't want to admit that.

He was the one that made a mistake.

He just wanted to blame the recipe.

And the weird thing is he was making Oysters Rockefeller, which has no beans in it at all.

Melissa, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule?

I've already ruled in your favor with regard to Coke Zero.

I'll talk more about that in the verdict if I need to.

But

why should I prohibit your dad from saying the words that he wants to say?

He's already traumatized you.

Like he already sent you out into the world with some unusual pronunciations.

You've already had the humiliation and pain of being called out in your 20s about how robot is more typically pronounced.

So now that the damage is done, why change it now?

And how specifically do you want it to change?

I want it to apply to words that he really seems to be the only one pronouncing them that way.

So I'm okay with crossing dairy off the list.

That might be more of an accent thing.

I really just don't think that some of these words are regionalisms.

There are other words he does say differently than I do because they are regionalisms, like the word cauliflower.

I know because I grew up in New York.

I know up north we say cauliflower.

I know down south they say cauliflower.

And that's fine because that to me is just a regionalism accent thing.

But

hold on, hold on one second.

You know that I'm from New England, a region of the northeast of the United States.

Yes.

I've never said cauliflower in my life.

How do you say it, Jesse?

How do you say cauliflower?

I say cauliflower.

Cauliflower.

I don't know what you're talking about.

Maybe it's a New York thing.

I think it's a New York thing.

Okay.

But I do know that there are plenty of people that do say cauliflower like I do.

So it's not something that I made up where I, you know, with my dad, I would, the word salsa, for example, that it's pronounced salsa.

I think he's really the only one.

And so I would ask you to rule that for words like that, where he's really the only one that says it, and he would definitely be wrong by any standards that you rule that he pronounced those words in the way that is generally accepted in this country.

Sir, Sir Mark.

Yes, sir.

How do you respond before my verdict?

How do you respond to this accusation that comes from your wife of 37 years

and your own daughter that you are doing this to create attention and create confusion for your own perverse delight?

I guess I would respond by saying that,

yes, I love my wife of 37 years.

But I find it a little odd that she would

sign an affidavit like this,

she being somebody who pronounces the word D-O-N-K-E-Y

as donkey.

So I feel like she should be disqualified from having any input into this matter.

I think I've heard everything I need to.

Donkey?

Yes, sir.

Ask Melissa.

I have heard it as well.

Mrs.

Mark Melissa's mom.

Donkey.

Donkey.

I've heard everything I need to in order to form my verdict.

I'm going to go into my

donkey pen

and ride around in my donkey of wisdom.

And I'll come up soon with a decision that I'll be back with.

I can't speak anymore, donkey.

Come on.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Melissa, how are you feeling about your chances right now?

I'm feeling pretty good, especially since he already ruled in my favor on the Coke Zero issue.

I'm very happy about that.

So I'm feeling pretty confident.

Mark, is there anything that you'd like to mispronounce now, just to get it out of your system in case you're ordered to never do it again?

I'm going to have to find a place to take refuge on this matter.

But I would also just like to say that I may lose the zero Coke war, but I hope not because Melissa's best friend, when Melissa told her about it, now says the words as zero Coke, and her whole family does.

And I feel like maybe I could start a movement.

Have either of you two seen the Stella Shorts?

No.

Possibly remind me which one that is.

Well, it's three of the members of the state, David Wayne, Michael Ian Black, and Michael Show Walter.

And they say a lot of words wrong.

And every time I need a shower, I think to myself, oh, I need a shower in the worst way.

I have not seen it, no.

I also often ask my wife if I can hold the perpee.

Okay, well, anyway, Jen's excited about that.

We'll be back with Judge John Hodgman's verdict in just a minute.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So if you're a new-ish listener to Judge John Hodgman and haven't gone through the entire back catalog, you may be confused why Jesse Thorne asked Sir Mark the Dad to say, I'll have the kung pao chicken.

That, of course, was a reference to a not so very deep cut back to episode number 265, Dad Nauseum, where an adult son brought his adult dad, they were both grown-ups, that's how we do it here, to court because he would make the same joke over and over again in any kind of service situation, whether it was a restaurant or a drive-thru or a toll booth on a turnpike.

He would ask the service person the same question over and over again, starting out with, I'll have the kung pao chicken, until that person was suitably confused.

And then finally, through his confusion or her confusion, would laugh politely.

And then the dad would think that he had brought joy to the world when, in fact, he was simply sowing confusion among service personnel who have a lot of things to think about and are not there to simply be a captive audience for your dad jokes.

I have already ruled and shall rule even

more fervently at this moment that Zero Coke must stop, sir.

At least, I mean, you can convince Melissa's best friend to say whatever.

If that is all part of your plan to get Melissa's attention by turning her best friend over to Zero Coke and her best friend's family, if that brings you delight, sir, as a dad and irks Melissa to the point that she pays you more attention, by all means.

But you may never, ever, ever, ever say to a flight attendant or a wait staff or a bartender, zero Coke, because those people have a job to do and they don't need to be confused by your theory about how things should be named differently.

So, that verdict stands with that further explanation.

That was episode 265, our entire back catalog, available, of course, at maximumfund.org at the Judge John Hodgman page, and in all the places that you get podcasts.

So, I will also say this:

you are not doing what that dad did, dude.

You are doing something different,

which is much more subtle.

In a way, I must applaud you.

Because

these things,

robot, refuge,

salsa, they are disruptive,

but not openly breaking with reality, as they are, at least two of those three are actual alternate pronunciations of the word.

Salsa remains in high dispute in my mind.

So letter writers get your cards and letters ready to send me all kinds of evidence about how salsa is a very common pronunciation, but I don't believe so.

You are doing exactly what

Jesse Thorne described in his description of the brilliant Stella Shorts by Michael Ian Black, David Wayne, and Michael Schowalter, which is to say using slightly different pronunciation of very common words to create a slightly different reality of which you, sir, are the master and which others travel through in a state of off-put confusion.

Whether you are doing this consciously for power and control, that may be overstating it.

But you know that most people say robot, you know that most people say refuge, and you certainly know that most people say salsa.

I cannot imagine

that you are pronouncing, pronouncing,

you know what, leave it in.

I cannot imagine you're pronouncing these words

on anything but purpose.

But I do not find them

to be so disruptive

as to cause real harm or damage in the world.

The damage that you have done to your daughter by sending her out onto the school ground saying robot instead of robot, that damage has been done.

But I do not see it as being greater damage than most parents inflict upon their kids unknowingly and usually with love.

These are small offenses,

with the exception of salsa.

While I will allow you to skate or scot

on refuge, on robot, on program, on dairy,

on all of those that are just slightly off, such that I cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you are doing it just to gaslight people.

Salsa

is not only confusing and disruptive, but also an insult to the Spanish language.

So I hereby order you to cease salsa-ing and start salsa-ing

from here on out.

And as back damages for the pain and trauma that you caused your daughter for having her say robot, you have to go make her whatever the meal it was that you failed to make correctly for her birthday, but make it right this time and follow the instructions.

And before you think you're getting off skate-free, Melissa,

you got to say cauliflower from now on.

You can't be out there going cauliflower.

Stop it.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Mark, how are you feeling?

I'm really disappointed about the zero Coke.

And maybe that's the last time those words will come out of my mouth.

But I'm glad glad I can at least hold on to refuge and dairy because you still want to have some foundation in your life.

The love of your family isn't enough.

Well, that too.

Melissa, how are you feeling?

I feel pretty good.

I would say Salsa was the...

the most offensive one to me probably out of anything on this list.

He did not actually mention Chipotle versus Chipotle.

So I don't know where he falls on that one.

Chipotle.

It has to be Chipotle.

It has to be Chipotle.

It has to be Chipotle.

Thank you.

So I feel pretty good since, yeah, the other words, if he wants to keep saying them incorrectly in my mind, but they're not as offensive to me.

So I feel good.

And let me just be clear, just to jump back in here, Mark.

Yes.

You can say zero Coke around the house to annoy your wife and daughter.

That's fair.

Just don't say it in a bar or a restaurant.

Okay?

I could handle that.

Or an airplane.

That's a little disappointing.

It's the right of weird dads, Melissa.

You know which court you came to.

I know.

Mark, Melissa, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

In a moment, Swift Justice.

But first, our thanks to Justin Dewey for naming this week's episode Jurisdiction.

If you'd like to name a future episode, please like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

We put out our calls for submissions there.

Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho.

And check out our subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com to chat about this week's episode.

We're also on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman, where you can see evidence for this week's case.

Make sure to follow us there.

This week's episode, recorded by Paul Ruest at Argo Studios in New York, our producer and recordist here in Los Angeles is Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

We're right in the midst of the holiday season.

Here's something from Courtney that could be helpful.

She says, which passenger gets to claim the armrests of a middle seat on a 333 seat plane?

Yeah, the middle passenger gets both armrests.

Obviously, it's their only comfort.

It's the only thing they get.

It's the only compensation or condensation, as the case may be, for sitting between two people who might even be strangers.

who would deny the middle passenger the armrest?

If you're on the aisle, you're on the aisle.

You can go to the bathroom whenever you want.

If you're in the window, you can prop up your coat or whatever and take a nap, and also you get a view.

The person in the middle gets nothing, nothing.

Give them the armrest.

If you take it, you're a monster.

Jesse, did I ever tell you?

You just, you don't disagree with me, do you, Jesse Thorne?

No, of course not.

Okay, thank you.

I have such strong feelings about airplane seating as a 215-pound six-foot, three-inch man.

And one of them is that the middle seat gets the armrests because literally, if I do not have the armrests, that means that my elbows are in front of my stomach.

Yeah.

So if I somehow horribly, nightmare of nightmares, end up in the middle seat, you bet your butt I'm taking those armrests.

As well, you should.

If you're in the middle seat, those armrests should be engraved with your name on both of them.

That should be a precondition to you getting on the airplane.

Jesse, have you ever flown an airline called JetBlue, since we're now mentioning brand names?

And on JetBlue,

I noticed on the front row of a regular plane where they don't have that new first class area.

It's just all, you know, all the single class of seating or whatever, or there's maybe some extra legroom at the front of the plane.

But that front row where you're right at that bulkhead, have you ever flown up there?

Yeah, absolutely.

I frequently fly in that row on JetBlue.

That's a great row for a person with long legs as you have to sit in.

Don't you agree?

Yes, I pay extra for the privilege gladly.

Sometimes I've been up on that front row and I might have an aisle or a window seat and the middle seat is empty for whatever reason because people don't like them.

And that's like secret business class, basically.

If you're in that front row on a JetBlue seat plane and you have all that space in front of you on that bulkhead, it's like you have a little pond to yourself.

One time I was on my way to that great San Francisco Sketch Fest.

Where we're appearing in 2019.

Where we are, yes.

At the Castro Theater on January 18th.

But they very kindly bought me a ticket on the plane.

And I was like, please put me in that front row.

And I discovered that you can buy an extra seat, say if you have a pet or something, right?

You can buy an extra seat.

And so I did it.

I bought that middle seat as well as the window seat for myself.

Because, you know, Sketchfest was compensating me for part of the flight.

And I decided to treat myself.

And when I arrived on the plane with my ukulele, they're like, wait a minute, you have two seats?

I'm like, yes.

And all of a sudden, I started to feel very embarrassed about it because I couldn't understand why I had done this.

And they said, is one of the seats for your instrument?

And at that point, I was so embarrassed that I had done this unusual thing that I just had to say,

yes, it's for my ukulele.

It's very.

It's a strativarius.

It's a strativarious ukulele.

And she was like, oh, of course.

And so I sat in the middle seat, and then she said, you're going to have to buckle your ukulele into that seat.

And so I buckled the ukulele into the middle seat as though it were my child.

And it was no longer a fun trip at that point.

That ukulele was my dark passenger of shame as I flew across the country in the middle of La Noche.

But in any case, you're darn right that that ukulele got both armrests.

I did not touch them.

That's about it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

Your complaints about Hodgman's profligate airplane lifestyle to at Hodgman on Twitter.

You can also email your cases to us at hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case is too small,

just as no instrument is too small to earn the protection of an entire extra seat on an airplane.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Well, well, now wait a minute, Jesse Thorne.

If I bought that

for a little dog named Coco, you would be happy about that.

Man, the last time I flew on JetBlue, I missed my flight.

The first time I've ever missed a flight in my life.

Got stuck on the subway in New York City, missed my flight, got a migraine, had to fly to Boston to get another flight.

And they made that announcement.

You can give us $350 and we'll upgrade you to your own pod.

Yeah.

And I texted my wife.

I'm like, am I allowed to spend $350 to upgrade to a pod?

And she said, do it now.

Yeah.

So I just, man, was I living it up in that pod.

They offered me the option to buy that extra seat.

It was a drop-down option.

I just had to see what it was like.

Sometimes you have to get the pod.

I'm glad you did it, Jesse.

I would have given you the exact same advice.

We'll talk to everybody next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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