Me-maw & Order

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Mima and Order, Julia brings the case against her mother, Donna.

Growing up, Julia and her sister called their grandmother Muka, but Donna believes it was originally Monka and will still refer to her that way.

Julia wants Donna to stop calling her Monka, but Donna says it's not up to Julia.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

I think what we are doing as boomers is trying to sort through all of the language, all of the traditions, and all of the possibilities.

In doing that, we're sorting through how to be grandparents and what to be called.

We don't want to be the matriarch and patriarch of old.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in, please.

Julia, Donna, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he only very recently became a grandmother himself?

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Donna and Julia, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I quoted as I entered this courtroom?

Let's say, Donna, you're the mom.

Why don't you go first?

What was I quoting?

Doesn't sound familiar.

Because you're the mom and I like moms.

I'm going to give you both, and I like daughters too.

I like family members of all kinds.

I'm going to give you both a big hint.

Look,

I do.

It's just how I am.

That's how I was raised, Jesse Thorne.

You don't have to laugh.

Just that kind of guy.

Yeah.

The kind of guy who likes family members.

I'd hate to be Moses around you.

Found in a basket in the reeds.

Nothing could be further from the truth, honestly, because

I was not raised in a family so much as I was raised in a suburban weirdo test tube as an only child by two wonderful human beings that I referred to as mother and father, but really thought of as my older roommates.

So I don't know what I'm talking about.

But I still will give you both a big hint.

John, can I just let you know, you're not the only person here who loves family members.

I also love family members.

And more than that, I hate orphans.

Here's a gift to both of you.

I am quoting from a newspaper.

A newspaper.

That narrows it down a bit, doesn't it, Donna?

What's your guess?

Oh, the New York Times.

The Failing New York Times.

All right.

I'm writing that.

The failing guess with the fake news in it.

The Failing New York Times.

All right.

That's definitely a major hometown newspaper where I live.

Where are you guys, Donna and Julia, in life?

I'm in East Moriches on Long Island.

Okay.

I'm just north of the city.

All right.

Northern Westchester.

You've heard of the New York Times then, right, Julia?

Yes.

All right.

Well, your mom picked the New York Times, so that's not available to you anymore.

What is another newspaper that you could name?

I'm going to go

Wall Street Journal.

Wall Street Journal, another.

Jesse, that's another famous newspaper.

Yep, nailed it.

Jesse, you want to guess a newspaper here?

I mean, the obvious guess here is Christian Science Monitor.

Christian Science Monitor out of Boston, Massachusetts, Commonwealth of New England.

Well, all guesses are wrong.

If you had guessed

the December 7th edition, 2013 of USA Today, one of you would be going home with a prize package of turtle wax and justice.

But

you are wrong.

And specifically, it was an article about baby boomer grandparents not being called granddad or grandma because it makes them feel young.

And that's not fair because as we all know, baby boomers are still the most important and relevant human beings on earth all the time, forever.

And they went on to quote an actor living in Manhattan.

named Russell Horton, who wrote, or he said to the USA Today, the USA Today, do you get the USA Today Today?

Jesse?

I know you live in a hotel room.

Yeah.

Russell Horton, an actor, 70, is quoted in USA Today saying, it turns out grandfatherhood is absolutely terrific.

Everything is cracked up to be, but this was the first time out.

And I was a little queasy about being called Gramps or Grandpa.

Horton, an actor in Manhattan, instead picked Grand Dude.

Oh, no.

Russell Horton is still alive.

Though I wish he were dead for that joke.

No, I don't.

Of course I don't.

Russell Horton, fantastic.

I did some research.

Guys, a long IMDB page.

He was in the movie

Annie Hall, which was a movie that came out that was good and we saw it.

We don't ever need to talk about it again.

But he was in the famous scene where he's spouting off about Marshall McLuhan, the media theorist, and Marshall McLuhan walks into the scene and says, you know nothing of my work.

That was him.

That was Randall Horton, Russell Horton, excuse me, Russell Horton.

He also is in Two Twilight Zones.

So Russell Horton, I'm sorry that I wished your death even briefly there, but grand dude, that's silly.

Come on.

Come on.

I mean, maybe if it's your job to break horses in between visits from your grandkids.

That's true.

He's the grand dude of the ranch.

All right.

So this case is all about grandma, grandpa, and other grandparent names.

And the dispute is between you, Julia, the daughter, and Donna, your mother, as about what is the appropriate thing to call your grandmother, Julia.

And then this would be your mother, Donna.

Is that correct?

No, my mother-in-law.

Your mother-in-law, okay.

So Julia, what did you grow up calling your paternal grandmother?

She has always been and always will be Makkah.

Mukka.

And Donna, you disagree.

Yes, it started out as manka, and then it gradually evolved the way language does, I suppose.

into makka.

Especially when being spoken by small children.

When did you start calling mucca manka?

I will use that as a neutral term for now until I determine which is going to be the final designation.

Julia, when did you start referring to your grandmother, your paternal grandmother, as Mukka?

So I always have because it's actually my older sister who coined the name, and she's four years older.

Okay.

You obviously have a memory of what you have always called your grandmother.

Is she still alive, the grandmother?

She is.

Okay.

Why is this dispute even happening?

I mean, why is there a difference of opinion?

And when did this difference of opinion start?

And why does it lead to a conflict?

Julia, you're bringing this case to the court.

Tell me a little bit about when your mother first said to you, No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

It's manga.

I guess I've noticed that she has always done it, but it never occurred to me to differ with her, I think, until

I mean, I guess I was a teenager or going

as a teenager.

And then when I was in college, I started asking, you know, why do you say munkah?

And then it turned into,

well, my mom would always say, because that's what it was originally.

Just like she's just said to me.

Correct.

And we said, well, it's mucca now.

You know, can we go forward with makkah?

Do the same response.

And I guess it's turned into a bit of a rift where,

you know, she'll write an email and she'll have lots of information and thoughts on things.

And then she'll mention something about Munka.

And I can only get myself to respond by saying,

oh, I'm sorry, I don't know who you're talking about.

Are you talking about Mukka?

Okay.

Wait a minute.

Julia, are you still a teenager?

I might be.

Hanging on to that.

Look, as someone who has teenagers

in his life, and you know I love all family members, Jesse.

All family members.

Absolutely.

But this kind of dispute, like, oh, mom, you're saying munka's name wrong.

You're a terrible person, and you need to get out of my life.

That would be a teenagery thing to say.

That's fine.

You're not a teenager.

No, I am an adult.

So, why does it bother you when your mother calls your grandmother Monka?

I think it's just the sound of it.

It sounds like a foot being stuck in the mud.

Like, monka.

Holy moly.

I don't like the way it looks written on paper or in an email.

And I just like having all things in order as they should be.

And having the whole family aligned on a name sounds good to me.

Sounds like a foot being stuck in the mud.

Yes.

Yeah.

Monka.

Or a fish, yeah.

Or a fish being stuck in the mud?

Yeah.

Monka, monka.

Get me out of this mud, says the fish.

That's very poetic.

And also does not track with any natural sound that I've ever heard in my life.

That's fair.

That's fair.

Are you a surrealist poet?

Not yet, but maybe.

All right.

And Donna, why is it Monka to you?

How did Monka start?

Julia maintains that it was her older sister who coined the term.

Is your daughter a liar?

No.

Her sister, Liz, was a small baby just beginning to speak.

And I was taking Monka

to drop her off to pick up her car at the repair station.

Hold on.

Guys, one second.

Over there in the remote studio, could you get that fish out of the mud?

I heard a fish and it was stuck in the mud.

It's pretty common in recording studios.

That's right.

Yeah, in Manhattan.

Please continue, Donna.

Okay.

So I dropped her grandmother at the repair station station and then drove back to the grandmother's house.

And Liz.

You can call the grandmother by your preferred name until I've ruled against you.

Okay.

So we drove back to Monka's house.

Hang on, hang on.

My foot just got stuck in the mud.

Did you hear that?

Oh, this is going to be a problem.

All right.

I think we've played that one out as much as we can.

Okay.

Of course, if my foot was stuck in the mud, I would be saying Monka.

So it wasn't a good joke, though.

Jesse wins that joke.

Full points for Jesse.

Okay, you dropped Monka off at the repair shop.

And she was going to drive her car back.

So we drove to Monka's house.

And as soon as I took off, Liz started screaming, Monka, Monka.

And, you know, I had no idea what in the world she was talking about.

And we got to the house, pulled in the driveway, and I took her out of the car seat.

And I said, what's I don't know what Monka is.

And then my mother-in-law pulled into the driveway and got out of their car.

Liz threw her arms open and said, Monka!

And she was just trying to tell me not to leave Monka somewhere where she couldn't get back, I guess.

So ever since then, she's always called her Monka.

Well, Julia is clearing her voice in a very perturbed way because Julia would claim that Liz calls her Makka, like Julia.

Correct, Julia?

That is correct.

And I did submit a letter from my sister.

I'll have the court know.

Yes, I do have that affidavit from your sister, and we'll go to that for a moment, but I just want to clarify, Donna.

So let's say for the moment that it is monka and your memory is not faulty whatever this word is it doesn't you don't know what the origin is you don't know why liz called your mother-in-law monka or monk well my mother-in-law had had been prompting her to call her grandmother right and she kept saying i'm your grandmother i'm your grandmother and i think it was her attempt to say grandmother she didn't speak very much at all yet she was too young got it so monka was as close as she could get.

This was her dumb-dumb child imitation of grandmother.

Yes, it was.

And her name isn't Monica by any chance, is it?

No, it isn't.

Or is it Mukaka by any chance?

That's another common name.

No, I've never heard that one, but that's not right either.

Well, the person who obviously would solve this is the person who originated the term.

I don't know why she's not here, but Elizabeth...

your sister, also known as Liz or Mika, did submit an affidavit, and it's very long.

But I'll just read a little bit of it.

This letter is to show my support of my sister Julia's suit against my mother, Donna.

Though I was a mere babe at the time of the naming with limited language skills, I grew up calling my grandmother Mukka, only questioning its origin when I was old enough to realize it was something different from other grandfolk.

The story is it stems from me as a baby attempting to pronounce the word grandmother.

Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba.

I don't remember how the rift began, but I noticed slowly over the years that my mother quite egregiously mispronounced the adorable nickname by saying Monka.

And I would, rather than correct her, I would tend to ignore it.

Continue to call her by the correct and, you must admit, much more pleasing sounding nickname, Mucca, etc., etc.

Yours very sincerely, Elizabeth, last name redacted.

We will redact the last name, but we'll make this affidavit available on the Judge John Hodgman page at maximumfund.org and maybe do a screenshot up on our Instagram at instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman, if only so that you can see that Liz/slash Elizabeth slash Illikaca Illikika put in a very ornate computer signature to sign this advocate.

So, Donna, this seems pretty much dispositive that you are wrong.

And Liz has been enabling you all these years because she's terrified of correcting you.

But Julia does not have that terror, and thus we have this conflict.

Do you think that Liz misremembers her own invention of a name?

I think so because,

you know, I spoke with my husband.

He remembers it being Munka as well, and that it gradually changed over to Mucca.

Did your husband provide an affidavit with a computer signature?

He did not, but he is here as a material witness.

What is his name?

Steve.

I'm afraid that we cannot accept his testimony because we don't have a microphone for him.

And we know what he's going to say.

My wife is correct, and my daughter is a liar.

Yes.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

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Court is back in session.

Let's return to the courtroom to hear more of the case.

Julia, why does this matter?

Why does it bother you when your mother calls her monka?

This is, I mean, unless your mother is a liar,

This is a recollection that she has.

I don't disagree that it started as manka.

That's not an issue at all for me.

I just don't like the way it sounds.

I don't like the way it looks.

I get hibie-jeebies in my belly.

I get uncomfortable when I hear manka.

Mina, when you say it, it does sound gross.

I'll give you that.

Exactly.

What does Monka Munka herself feel about this?

You know, grandparents now are choosing all kinds of different names for themselves.

It came up in my family when we had children.

Neither my father nor my mother-in-law wanted to be called granddad or grandma or whatever for a lot of the same reasons as Russell Horton, the grand dude that we spoke about earlier.

My dad took the Italian, because he is partially Italian-American, the Italian nono for his name, and my mother-in-law took her own name,

which is Gwen, and turned it into Gwenny rather than Granny.

So they're both very affected people.

But, you know, they had that right to choose.

Munka Maka is still living, right?

Am I right?

Yes.

Yeah.

Where is she?

Off with Liz having a grand old time not fighting?

Yes.

Well, I did ask her actually this fall when I saw her earlier.

Oh, I know it was the summer.

And she

very firmly and fully sided with me and Liz that it's Makkah.

Do you have evidence of this conversation?

I did not record the conversation.

No.

Did you force her to sign something?

I tried.

Yeah.

Did you withhold medicine from her?

Yes.

Until she agreed with you?

That's a terrible thing to...

I apologize that I accused you of elder abuse, but it is a little suspicious that you had a private conversation in which she fully affirmed your side of the story, and there is no record of it whatsoever, Julia.

Come on.

Well.

Not admissible.

Okay.

Donna, have you spoken to Munca Mucca about this?

Yes, and she just remembers Mukka.

She doesn't remember Munka.

She is in her 90s.

But she also

was quick to point out that we don't choose our grand names.

She said the children ultimately choose them, the grandchildren.

Oh, Gwenny and Nana would disagree with you on that one.

They might.

And so would Grand Dude.

I believe your mom is of a different era.

Well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Yeah.

But clarify for me.

What did Monka Muka recall to you?

Well, actually, she spoke to my husband, and I was listening in on the conversation,

and she said she remembers Maka, you know,

because we had called her about a Christmas ornament I had made when Liz was a baby, and the Christmas ornament said to Monka and Granddad, and I had embroidered that on it.

So we called to see if she still had that, but she doesn't.

They moved several times.

It got lost.

So all of the hard evidence is mysteriously disappeared.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right, Julia.

Obviously, the two words are very similar, and I'm finding myself

sort of getting a little lost in here.

The embroidery said, what was spelled on the embroidery, Donna?

M-O-N-K-A.

Julia, do you dispute this piece of embroidery?

Well, I'm thinking my mom embroidered it, so of course she did munka.

Right.

One thing I keep coming back to in this case is why?

Why are you fighting about this?

I mean, Julia, I understand you don't like the sound of it, and both you and Liz feel it should be mucca.

But Donna, why won't you make an adjustment so that your daughter

won't be upset?

I have tried, but it is so ingrained that it was manka that sometimes without thinking, and I have written mucca on occasion, but sometimes I forget.

And I, you know, if I'm writing a text or something, I just write manka because that's how I think of it.

And do you have a theory as to why this bothers Julia so much?

Does she always need to be right?

Possibly.

Well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but

that would help me a lot if you agreed with me.

She is very stubborn, as Liz will attest.

She is very stubborn, but then I guess she comes by it naturally.

I'm also stubborn.

Now, Julia, you are yourself a mother, is that correct?

Yes, that's correct.

You have a child?

Yes,

he's just turned one years old about a month ago.

You know, now, of course, Donna, you are a grandmother.

And have you guys figured out what your son will call

your mother, Julia?

Well, no, he's not quite speaking yet.

So I think she's trying to say grandma to him.

His other grandmother is Gaga to her other grandchildren.

So I think everything is on the table except that.

Well, obviously, Donna, you have to be Googoo.

I'm making a note of that.

That might be in order.

We'll see what happens.

Okay.

Oh, no.

You mentioned, Donna, that your mother-in-law, Munka Muka, believes whatever the children choose should be the name.

Yes.

It's a very Parkslopean idea that the children should name us and rule us and tell us who we are and give us our identity.

Do you believe in that or do you want to choose a name for yourself?

Because I'm leaning heavily on Googoo at this point.

I just think of myself as grandma.

My husband wants to be called honored grandfather and I can see that that's going to be a problem.

Would you be okay with honored grand dude?

High honorable grand dude?

He might.

He might.

But we'll have to see when Oliver can speak and

tell us what he, you know, our names are.

Now, Julia, your mom just referred to your son as oliver do you agree that that is that child's name

as far as i know yes do you have an opinion julia on what donna should be called by your son no i i think that's up to you know her and him they can they can figure it out

right now see you know donna if i were you i'd be working on oliver starting now just saying call me monka manka my mother hates this name call me monka I am Monka.

That's a great idea.

And this other woman is Grand Monka, and that is how it shall always be, Oliver.

And then you give him pieces of Turkish delight to bribe him.

That's a great idea.

What a nice suggestion.

It's a pretty good idea.

Yeah.

John, thank you so much for bringing up Turkish Delight.

I had this Turkish Delight.

It's a long story, but I was in this snowy forest, and a woman came up on a sleigh, a spectacular-looking woman, gave me a little bit of Turkish Delight.

It was so good.

Did you look a little like Tilda Swinton?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I said, How can I get some more of this Turkish Delight?

And anyway, she gave me the whole thing, a set of stuff that I have to do.

And I've been working on it,

but I can't stop thinking about that Turkish Delight.

Well, it is a flavorless gelatin

from England.

What child wouldn't do anything?

Even I, a fan of family members, would certainly betray all of my brothers and sisters for just a little bit of Turkish delight held out in a bone-white hand in the middle of winter.

I'm in a cold sweat thinking about those jelly cubes.

This is a reference to the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, Donna and Julia, in case you didn't get it.

No, I got it.

All right, good.

I don't know what people know these days.

You didn't even get my USA Today reference earlier.

That was weird.

I know.

Sorry.

Julia, do you agree that you're stubborn?

Yes.

Are there any damages that are caused to anyone in your family

by your grandmother having two different names that sound a lot alike?

Myself aside?

Well, I mean, what's the damage?

I guess it's just uncomfortable.

I guess I just like things to be nice and sweet and tidy.

You don't like there being ambiguity in this world?

No ambiguity.

Sometimes the cat in the box is named Mucca, and sometimes the cat in the box is named Munka.

Yes.

Schrödinger's?

Oh, it's actually pronounced Munkinger's Cat.

Got it.

It's a different paradox.

It's about what happens if you put a cat in a box and then stick it in the mud with some fish.

You know how common it is that fish get stuck in mud and they make a noise?

It's a similar situation.

So you would have me rule that your mother, what, must police herself constantly?

Yeah, if she could just do that.

Okay.

Or, you know, refer to her as Regina or your grandmother or Maka.

If she could try.

Would you accept she who may not be named?

Sure, yeah.

So it's not consistency you want.

It's really your dislike of the sound of that particular word.

Correct.

And Donna, why is that?

Do you just feel it is unreasonable to be asked to make this change?

I do.

I really don't see the point of having to change it.

It's how I think of her.

It's what I use a lot of the time.

I try to be consistent with Julia and say, I'll try to do that.

But I often forget.

And I just, it just seems so automatic because for years it was automatically manka.

When did this dispute arise when she was a teenager yes

and why do you think it happened what changed in julia's life

that she started picking this fight she became a teenager and uh argumentative

i mean what's interesting to me is that julia took a stand on this

Whereas Liz basically wrote us a letter saying, I long suffered in silence, afraid to contradict my mother.

I'm so intimidated I cannot even appear in the courtroom today.

Please accept this letter.

I'm leaving the country.

I mean,

does that track with your understanding of your two daughters?

That they are different personalities, yes.

But I mean, is this reflective of other ways that she is in life?

In a way.

An example, we always tried to let Julia feel more empowered because she was the second daughter and the second child.

And because she was younger, often things would not go her way.

So one of the things that we were remembering the other day was that

when she was about eight years old, we went to a restaurant, the four of us, and the waiter came to the table and said, Would you like dessert?

And we all turned and looked at Julia as if she was going to make that decision.

And I think that, you know, that's often how

it was with her, how we tried to include her and have her be part of the decision-making, I guess.

And what did Julia choose for dessert for the table?

I don't even remember.

Turkish Delight, perhaps?

Maybe Turkish Delight.

Obviously, you created a monster.

Yes, I think that, yeah, looking back on it, I guess we did.

So, Julia, do you expect that if I were to order in your favor that your mom would even adhere?

to my ruling?

She is a grown human being.

I hate to say that, you know, she is beyond the reach of my authority.

Once we hang up, she could just be monka, monka, monkeying all day long.

And you have not prepared a compelling case other than I don't like the sound of that, that would have an emotional appeal such that your mother

might heed you.

It's just that you want what you want.

Well, I want what I want.

I have requested it politely and I've made jokes about it.

I think that she wants what she wants and we want what we want.

And

I don't have a lot of faith that she'll

adhere.

But I'm hopeful that next time it comes up, if I mention the podcast, she'll be like, okay.

No, I don't think that's going to happen.

Okay.

I've had very

just, you know, a few dozen minutes worth of very nice conversation with your mom.

And I can tell she's, if I order in your favor, she's going to be like, no.

Okay.

You know, she's going to be like, I don't even know what I'm doing.

What is a podcast?

Why am I here?

Who is this stranger?

Why did I ever let you order dessert?

Donna, if I were to find in your favor, you would ask me to order Julia to just stop being bothered by it.

Just to let it go, because it doesn't happen all the time.

Don't

make that noise.

It doesn't happen.

Yeah, speaking of noises, for someone who is so attuned to noises, Julia,

the drama of your gasp

at the simple request to let it go, as though that were the most unimaginable thing possible.

What?

Oh, let it go.

I'm going to ask you to explain that in a moment, but please finish your thought, Donna.

That was pretty much it.

Just to let it go and to let it just slide away, just forget about it.

Julia, do you have trouble letting things go?

Oops.

I I lost my headphones.

Jesse, you gasped so hard that you knocked the headphones off of Donna's head.

That's true.

That's exactly what happened.

Very dramatic.

I know.

I was gasping because she said it doesn't happen all of the time.

Oh, okay.

So you dispute that account.

I dispute that.

Hmm.

Okay.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I am going over the river and through these woods to to Gugu and Gaga's house and I'm going to have myself a gingerbread cookie and I will be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Julia, how are you feeling about your case right now?

Not as confident as when I came in.

Why is that?

I think he has a point that she won't abide by the ruling.

I think my mom made a decent point that, you know, she's just used to it and she thinks of it in her head.

And I don't think I made my case as well as I could have.

Were you intimidated?

A little bit.

Donna, how are you feeling about your chances?

I have no idea.

I have no idea at all.

Have either of you ever actually had Turkish Delight?

Yes.

What did you think of it?

It was good.

I didn't think it was tasteless.

And mine had walnuts in it.

Yeah, well, premium varieties consist largely of chopped dates, pistachios, and hazelnuts or walnuts bound by the gel.

Yes, that's what I remember.

It's a confection based on a gel of starch and sugar.

In the production process, soapwort may be used as an emulsifying additive.

I usually check candy wrappers for soap wort.

If it's soap wart, it's a go.

That's my motto.

Did you know that soap wort is also a plant called bouncing bet?

No, but that's awesome.

You know that.

That is

infinity percent more soapwort knowledge than I expected you to bring to this podcast.

You're welcome.

Well, Julia, Donna, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say in just a minute.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

First of all, I did not go to Gugu Ngaga's house after all.

I took a different route and I forgot all about my ice castle that is full of family members turned to stone because I love family members that much.

I want to keep them with me all the time.

Love them.

Oh, they're Turkish delight.

I'd do anything for it.

I am obviously inclined to rule in Donna's favor because she knows that soapboard is also a bouncing bet.

That was the most incredible thing I've ever heard in my life.

And because this dispute is fairly dumb, I kind of want to.

I would ask Donna to indulge this court and please tell me a little bit more about what bouncing bet is and why you know what you know.

It's a wildflower.

It's in the same family as

I forget the name of the other one.

Crimson something or other.

You can dry it in olden days, in pioneer days, they used to take the dried pods, empty out the seeds, and use them in flower arrangements.

So it's pretty.

It's pretty.

Julia, listen to that.

The wisdom of your elder.

She's a full of knowledge.

I was initially going to say,

how dare you accuse your own mother of misremembering?

Her aged mother.

No, I.

How dare you.

Well, I was going to say, let me finish.

I was going to say, how dare you accuse your own mother of misremembering the story of how the name of the grandmother came to be?

And then she couldn't remember what Crimson whatever was called.

And then I realized, well, maybe she doesn't remember.

I don't know.

Hard to tell.

She knows what bouncing pet is.

That's pretty cool.

Any discussion of grandparent names would be remiss

if I did not mention

the names of my friend Jonathan Colton's paternal grandparents,

Tuffy and BJ.

For a long time knowing Jonathan, that was one of my favorite stories, stories, that his grandfather was known as BJ for Big Jock, and his grandmother was known as Tuffy because she was tough.

But then I learned later on that I had the story wrong.

That in fact they were called Tuffy and BJ, but by Jonathan's father.

The grandchildren did not call them Tuffy and BJ.

That was the grown-ups what they called them.

The grandchildren called them mum and baba, which makes more sense.

Because children aren't very inventive.

And sometimes they don't speak so good.

And instead of grandmother, they say manka.

And sometimes over time, that gets mutated into mucca, which becomes mum, blah, blah, blah, blah, or whatever.

But then, you know, the word, like all living languages, it develops and it evolves.

And it is perfectly understandable and plausible that it might have originally been monka, but even misremembered by Liz, the originator, as mucca, because you guys both grew up calling her maka, right?

We can acknowledge that.

Yes.

So there is no baseline who is right and who is wrong because all the recollections are perfectly plausible given in the mix of time in the marble mouths of toddlers.

It's really just a question of going forward.

You, Julia, do not like the term monkah

because it sounds like what?

A fish in the mud or a foot getting stuck in the mud?

It's one of your little weirdsies, as Linda Holmes, occasional guest bailiff, might say, right?

You just don't like it.

Yes.

I don't understand that because you know what word sounds terrible to me?

Mucca.

No.

That sounds like Turkish delight being dropped into a puddle.

And not even that good pistachio Turkish delight, the cut rate Turkish delight.

Being dropped into a puddle of cold slush and getting ruined.

Sorry, Jesse.

I know that you hate this metaphor because you love Turkish delight so much.

Oh, I gotta get some more of that Turkish delight.

Don't get so upset.

You were about to drop it into that slush puddle.

Mucca.

Mucca sounds like yucca root, which is a terrible name for a root.

It's gross.

That's a gross name.

Sorry, Julia.

Do you disagree?

I don't care.

I'm right.

Munka is much more pleasing to my ear than Mucca.

But ultimately,

my ear isn't what matters here.

Since Munka Makka herself seems to be

neutral on this topic and really perhaps just wants to be left alone in peace at this time about it,

What it comes down to is,

I think,

ultimately the messiness of these names, because they are so often bestowed by children.

And while grandparents strive hard,

according to USA Today and my own experience, to choose names that do not mark them

as old, which is understandable.

I don't like getting older.

And they choose names like grand Dude or

Honorable Grandfather.

That actually makes him sound pretty awesome.

That attempt to hold on to or to forge an identity is often thwarted by kids who just call them, you know, no matter how many times you say I would like to be referred to as toughy, instead they call you mum.

This is the kind of

ambiguity

that you dislike, Julia.

The switching between Munka and Makkah

is precisely the ambiguity that your life has already been flooded with now having a one-year-old agent of chaos in your house.

And all kinds of things are going to get all sorts of strange names.

And you may not even know where they come from.

No discussion of children making up strange names would be complete without another story from Jonathan Colton.

When he was a toddler, he was walking with his mom, and suddenly burst into tears, if I remember the story correctly, and just started saying, Down deumbo bee, down de umbo bee.

And she said, What are you talking about?

And he said, Down deumbo bee, you know, you know,

but she did not know, and still does not know to this day, nor does Jonathan recall.

It is an eternal mystery.

Because of this, I am moved to a rather unusual decision.

On the one hand, I do not wish to

be

in the position of bossing around a grown woman who knows that soapbort is the same thing as bouncy,

who has raised two children.

who has other things to deal with in her life and does not need to be constantly policing herself to say the word that makes her daughter happy when she has a very clear memory of her own memory of the word as it was originated.

But then again,

there is the issue of Julia, you know, who likes what she likes and she simply can't stand hearing that word.

It grosses her out, even though it is well established that mucke is grosser than monkey.

And so,

luckily, there is an arbiter.

It is not Liz.

It is not honorable grand dude.

It is not even Munka Mukka herself.

Let the wisdom of the child speak.

What you're going to do is

you're going to get Oliver.

Oh, no.

You're going to get Oliver to make the final decision.

And I'm trying to think of how to do this because I presume he's one years old.

He can't read, right?

Not yet.

He's almost there.

Honorable grandfather and you and your mom, Julia, are all going to sit with Oliver.

And at one point, the neutral party, honorable grandfather, will say, Oliver, which word do you like better, Munka or Mucca?

Munka or Mukka?

And if he makes a choice, let that choice be the forever name.

Because

growing old is surrendering to some degree to the young.

And while you are accustomed, Julia, to having your mom surrender to you,

or at least desirous of that, now it is your turn to surrender to your own child.

The whims, the weirdnesses, the strange words that Oliver doesn't like to hear, the down-diumbo bees in his life that will puzzle you forever.

All of that is happening now to you.

Your mother's already gone through it.

You want a clear-cut answer.

Oliver shall decide.

And it's a 50-50 that you're going to be hearing Munka for the rest of your life.

That is a remedy that this court will order.

Unless, Julia, you are willing for me now to rule in your mother's favor and that you will tolerate this ambiguity between Munka and Mucca, knowing that your mom is doing her best not to gross you out by saying the wrong word, but will occasionally lapse.

Which do you prefer, Julia?

Which thing out of your control are you willing to accept?

My ruling in your mother's favor or throwing it to the mad wisdom of children?

I think I can get Oliver on my side.

I rule in Donna's favor.

I was going to go through with that Oliver thing until I realized just what a dessert ordering monster you are.

You have to have it your way.

Well, it can't happen anymore.

You just threw the whole case back over to Donna.

I apologize, Julia, but that's the way it goes.

This is the sound of the gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that dissolve.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Julia, how are you feeling right in this moment?

I screwed myself.

I could have worked at him at night for bedtime routine.

Maka, maka, maka.

I was honest.

You could have just hid in the closet whispering that.

Maybe flickering the light a little.

Donna, how are you feeling?

I'm fine.

I just think it's...

It's just silly, but I'll continue to try to use maka if she really likes that.

You're a good mom, Donna, to try and to indulge your daughter even in this.

And you know what else, Googoo?

You're going to be a great goo-goo, grandma.

Thanks.

Donna, Julia, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case.

Papow in the books.

Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Raven Peters for naming this week's episode, Me Maw and Order.

If you want to name a future episode, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

We put out calls for submissions there.

Please also follow us on Twitter at Hodgman and at Jesse Thorne.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho.

And check out the Maximum Fund subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com to chat about this week's episode.

We're also on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman, where you can catch the visual evidence for episodes of the program.

Be sure to follow us there.

This week's episode, recorded by Ben Ellman at the studios of the Radio Foundation in New York.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Are you ready, Judge?

I am ready.

Here's something from Jennifer, who is not our producer.

Wouldn't that be horrible if that was how I told Jennifer Marmor that she was fired?

Well, you've been doing a great job, Jennifer, but since you submitted this case, unfortunately, you have to recuse yourself from producing for the rest of your career.

Every time my husband goes to the grocery store, he buys ketchup.

We have three unopened bottles of ketchup in the pantry.

His reasoning is that we'll eventually need it, and it's better not to be caught empty ketchup-handed.

I don't think it's necessary to have a strategic ketchup reserve.

One backup bottle is enough.

What say you, Judge John Hodgman?

Well, first of all, points against Jennifer, not our producer, for not using the term being caught unread-handed because ketchup is red.

And also, the best way to eat ketchup is to pour it on your hand and lick it off your palm.

That's everyone knows that.

Yeah.

Honestly, I won't even eat a hand that isn't covered with ketchup.

Do you ever have mustard and ketchup on a hand?

Yeah.

You know what?

I'm from San Francisco, so I really don't have strong feelings about this.

I'll take whatever hand condiments you want to give me.

I also just went to the German delicatessen.

Shout out to Tip Top Meats in Carlsbad, California.

And I bought some German ketchup that's very tasty.

It's a little curry-flavored.

Oh, yeah.

That's great.

That's great on a dog.

Do you know what Dave from Antarctica, our listener who spent some time in Antarctica, who's no longer living in Antarctica, but he took us down there with him in his years,

he came to an event of mine in the spring and gave me some, I believe it was Austrian or German dill mayonnaise in a giant toothpaste tube.

Wow.

Big foil tube of European mayonnaise with a dill flavor.

And it was the most delightful thing I've ever had.

I want more, Dave.

And if I forgot the name of the country where you got it, please remind me.

I'm sure you're listening.

And I hope you're staying warm.

But the main thing is, there are certain condiments that I absolutely believe in stocking up on.

Dill mayonnaise, for one, absolutely.

Mayonnaise itself, my favorite condiment, is shelf-stable.

I'll always keep a backup jar.

I mean, it really depends on how much ketchup you use, Jennifer, and how much your husband loves ketchup.

Will he lick it off his own hand?

In which case, you know, his passion for ketchup might be such that he would feel anxious if he didn't have enough ketchup.

It's the classic saying, John, my hand, my rules.

Exactly so.

And I would also say that one of the determining factors for how much ketchup you stockpile is how close we are to civilization collapsing.

And at this moment in history, I'd say we're definitely in a three-bottle situation at minimum.

So I rule in Jennifer's husband's favor.

He can keep up to three bottles of ketchup in reserve if it makes him feel more comfortable and believe that democracy might continue.

And also I do encourage getting those glass bottles of ketchup that we switched over to glass bottles.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with the plastic ones, but it just feels very quintessential to have a big old glass bottle of ketchup.

In other words, it's not ketchup unless it's very difficult to get onto your food.

I would rather go through the extra work of waiting for the ketchup to dribble out of a glass bottle and drip onto your hamburger or whatever with the classic sound of ketchup dripping.

Munka, munku, munku, munku.

I don't really think about it.

That does sound gross.

Then go through the painful experience of having to fart out ketchup from a plastic squeeze bottle.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJHO or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No cases too small.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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