Waffle House Arrest

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Maeve Higgins, filling in for Jesse Thorne.

This week, Waffle House Arrest.

Shen Lin brings the case against her husband, Martin.

Shenlin loves to go out for breakfast with family and friends, but Martin prefers breakfast at home.

He thinks that he can cook breakfast at home better and for less money.

She wishes he would participate in her breakfast outings.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Every one of my podcasts means something.

The network, the producer, the year it was made, who was copying whose style, who's expanding on that.

Don't you understand?

When I listen to my podcasts, they take me back to certain points in my life, okay?

Just don't touch my podcasts ever.

You!

The first time I met you, Modell Sisters High School graduation party, right?

2011.

And Judge John Hodgman was playing when I walked in the door.

Guest Bailiff Maeve Higgins, please swear them in.

Shenlin and Martin, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he only eats breakfast served to him in a Griswold cast iron skillet.

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Shenlin and Martin, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced when I entered the courtroom.

Shenlin, let's start with you.

For some reason, I imagine John Cusack saying it.

And I am not familiar with much of his work, so

I don't really have a guess on which movie it would be.

John Cusack saying something.

I'm going to put that into the guest book.

A highly intuitive guess.

The risk of giving Martin information.

You're close.

Good to know.

I guess I just delivered it very cusacky.

I think so.

All right.

Maybe that's an error on my part.

Martin, what's your guess?

Opening lines from a

famous song written by one of New England's most

legendary jazz quintets night and day.

Their song, Breakfast in Bed.

That's my guess.

Whoa.

That is some

profoundly high-level deep-cut pandering.

Because Martin is making reference.

to the fact that I am recording right now in Judge John Hodgman's Summertime Chambers, W-E-R-U, in Orland, Maine, 89.9 FM,

where I am always joined by our guest producer and local DJ and bass playing legend, Joel Mann.

Hello, Joel.

Good afternoon, Judge.

Do I guess correctly that Martin is making reference to your jazz combo that plays at the Pentagoa Inn every Tuesday evening?

One can only hope.

But that's right.

That's night and day, isn't it?

That's night and day.

Night and day.

And what was the name of the song that he referenced?

Breakfast in Bed?

Yes.

Never heard of it.

No.

I thought Martin was maybe really deep into your back catalog.

Martin, that's pretty advanced.

I got to give you credit for that.

I'm almost about to rule in your favor.

But all guesses are wrong.

I was, in fact, quoting with some liberties from a famous line from the movie Diner

by Barry Levinson, specifically Daniel Stern's monologue about how his wife should never touch his records,

defending the the sanctity of his record collection.

It is essentially the quintessential portrayal of controlling husband who has a system, something that we have some familiarity with here on the Judge John Hodgin podcast.

And of course, a lot of it takes place in a diner,

hence the name of the movie.

And we're talking about going out for breakfast here.

But before we go out for breakfast together, which is something all humans love to do except for Martin, apparently.

I will say hello not only to Joel Mann, who is a special guest this episode.

Hello, Hello, Joel.

Hello, Judge.

And as well to our guest bailiff.

She's back again, the wonderful Maeve Higgins.

Hello, Maeve.

Good morning, John.

Get it?

Because it's breakfast.

I would like to give a shout-out to those of you who were listening last week.

Maeve made a joke, which was one of the greatest weird dad jokes of all time.

that went unheralded in its moment.

And it was not a weird dad joke.

It was just a Maeve Higgins joke.

We were talking about a movie that was directed by Vim Vendors.

And she said to the litigants at the end, when I ruled in favor of the husband, in this case, saying to Colleen, what do you think, Colleen?

Is this a win-win or a Vim Vendors?

That made me so happy.

I'm so glad to be here, though.

I'm, you know, I eat breakfast.

You know, I start.

Everybody talks about how important it is and something that I do.

So I feel like I fit in, you know.

Folks, if you weren't listening last time and you don't know Maeve Higgins, it's a horrible mistake in your life because she's one of the loveliest comedians and storytellers and personalities.

Co-hosting a really great comedy show in Brooklyn, New York, where I live most of the time, called Butterboy, co-hosting with the great Aparna Nanchirla and Joe Firestone.

And she also has a terrific podcast with the former president of Ireland called Mothers of Invention and a book out right now called Maeve in America, which is available for sale anywhere you might buy a book.

And I urge you to do so.

We'll talk a little bit more about that later.

But thanks for being back here with us again, Maeve.

Oh, thanks, John.

I'm thrilled.

So, Maeve, you like breakfast, right?

Yeah, it's one of my favorite meals.

It's like in my top three favorite meals.

And Joel?

Breakfast is good.

Yeah, breakfast is good.

You like going out for breakfast?

Yes.

Where do you go out for breakfast here in the Blue Hill Peninsula?

There's a little place called the Rise and Shine on Verona Island.

Over Verona Island.

Yeah, I'll go over there.

You like going out for breakfast, right?

I do.

Everyone in the world likes going out for breakfast.

It's one of the greatest things you can do.

I'm just going to say.

One time, years and years ago, I was in Amherst, Massachusetts, visiting my friend Charles Diggs and his then-wife, and a bunch of old high school friends were all together.

And we all went out for breakfast, and we had a great time.

And then when we came back, Pauline, who was also visiting, who was sleeping when we went out, came down.

She said, where'd you guys go?

So we went to breakfast.

She said, what What the hell?

I like breakfast.

You're like, You were sleeping.

She said, Everyone likes going out for breakfast.

You should have woken me up.

But someone doesn't.

Someone doesn't like going out for breakfast.

Martin, obviously, I'm biased here.

Biased for breakfast.

I should recuse myself, but I'm not going to because I'm curious, Martin.

Are you an android?

Are you a visitor from another planet pretending to be a human?

Could we get the engineer to scrape Martin's skin to see if it's real?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nolan in the studios in Chico, California.

You can just reach over and do what Maeve says.

Give him a little scratch.

I know Martin's human.

He's also a great basketball player.

That was Nolan talking just then, Maeve?

Is that correct?

Yeah, that was Nolan saying that he's human.

I didn't like that.

He sounded a little robotic, too.

I think there are a couple of Cylons.

Cylons always vouch for each other.

All right.

Martin, before we hear from you, Shenlin brings this case.

I want her to be able to make her case.

What's the issue?

You like to go out for breakfast and Martin stays home.

Is this what's going on?

Tell me more.

Yeah.

So I just, in general, like going out for breakfast as well as to breakfast places to have even something as simple as coffee and pastries.

And that's typically something that I do with my family and sometimes my friends.

And most of the time, it's an outing that I can invite Martin to that I would like if he came.

And then also, if we or I am bringing our children, it's just nice that we're like all there as a family, and I just enjoy starting my day that way.

All right, let me clarify a couple of things.

You live in Chico, California?

Yes.

Or thereabouts?

Yes.

The breakfast capital of California.

Yes, that's correct.

You guys are married or in a partnership of some kind?

Married, yes.

All right.

And you have two children?

You mentioned children?

Yeah, we have two children.

Our daughter is four and a half, and our son is two and a half.

And their names are fried egg and turkey sausage.

Yeah, we fought over that, but that's what we landed on.

Why would you name a child after the blight of turkey sausage?

Shinlin, you mentioned you like to go out for breakfast.

How often are you going out for breakfast there, Chico?

Like, how many days a week are you talking about?

I would say at the most once a week.

Okay.

And once a week, and you say you go out with family, you're speaking of more than just your nuclear family.

Yeah, so that's typically my mom and dad.

Sometimes Martin's mom is involved.

And every once in a while, when we have our sisters visiting,

they're obviously included.

Now, I'll tell you, if my wife were going out to breakfast with her mom or her dad,

And my mom is no longer living, so I'm like, and my dad, and maybe her sisters, I would totally want to stay home in any of those configurations.

I'm with Martin on that one.

But you're saying that when you take your children out to breakfast,

sometimes Martin doesn't come out of principle?

Yeah, it's kind of one of those things where if it's typically my parents are initiating that, they're like, okay, we're going to, you know, you want to come out to breakfast with us and, you know, or a coffee shop and just come join us.

And it's usually like maybe either the night before or that morning they, you know, text me and send an invitation.

And then it's not a special occasion.

It's just kind of like, let's hang out.

You know, we haven't seen you in like three days.

So let's get together

and enjoy coffee and things like that.

I'm not to interrupt you.

You're going to great lengths and prose to describe the procedure by which people invite each other to have a meal.

I know that you live in a household where one person, Martin, has been gaslighting you for years, obviously, in order to trick you into thinking that maybe someone saying, Let's go to breakfast is a weird thing that shouldn't happen and needs to be explained.

I'm trying to tell you, Shenlin, that the reality you experience is normal.

Everything's fine.

Your mom or your dad says, Let's go to breakfast.

I get it.

I understand.

All humans get it.

It's only Martin who acts like this is some weird thing that is beyond human comprehension.

Martin, now it is your turn.

I'm going to give you a fair hearing.

And here's why.

One, everyone deserves one.

Two,

Shenlin did say that she likes to go out for pastries.

I almost threw this out right there.

I do not like pastries.

And I think there is a risk here that when Shenlin says breakfast,

something everyone wants to go out for.

When she said pastries, it started making me think, maybe she's actually talking about brunch, which is something no one wants and should everyone should avoid.

Why don't you go out for a morning meal with your own family, Martin?

Your Honor, I want to start by saying that breakfast never did anything bad to me.

That's not the problem.

I love breakfast just as any other human does.

There's a couple issues that I have that keeps me from going out on a regular basis with them.

And that's kind of the totality of my argument is that I have

about five different angles I'm working with here.

The first being

that you can sit tight.

Stop for a second.

I want you to look at all those five angles and think to yourself, do you think maybe three is enough?

I could pare it down to three.

The first one is that I believe that going out to eat is a special occasion and not a regular event for a number of reasons.

One, as being a young family, financially, it's sort of just unsustainable for us to be able to just kind of go out every Saturday just because it's a nice, nice thing to do.

What age are your children?

Four and a half and two and a half.

Oh, so they're not working or not yet.

You have to understand, Maeve is from Ireland.

They're not sleeping chimneys in Chico, California.

No, no.

Next year, I think.

Dining out should be a special occasion.

That's angle one.

Sub-angle one is because it's financially difficult.

Correct.

Are we still in angle one, though?

Sub-angle two.

Sorry, sub-angle one,

part B.

is that I can make it for a fraction of the cost at even better quality than your average breakfast joint.

And I believe as Shin is shaking her head right now.

It's so disrespectful joint.

Okay, there's angle one.

Sub-angle one is it's expensive.

Sub-angle two is you can make a better breakfast at home for less money.

Correct.

Right.

And I do so with

now, forgive me for pandering again, but I use cast iron pans

and I love making homestyle potatoes, which Shinlin loves to enjoy.

I believe that I perfected them and I have evidence for that that was submitted just as a picture.

Yeah, we'll take a look at your evidence in just a moment.

I just want to warn you, sir, that you did put the word pandering very close to the word pan.

And you approached a pun pretty hard.

I don't want to have have any more of that.

I apologize.

All right.

How many more angles do we have to go?

Like, do I have time to get a cup of coffee and you can just roll for a while?

I'd prefer to make you coffee than go out for coffee.

Which brings me to my next point.

Okay.

Well, sorry.

Go ahead.

Next angle or sub-angle.

Is that coffee and pastries now from a health aspect?

I'm going to the health aspect now.

I am not a coffee drinker.

I'm a high-energy guy.

I get super jittery.

Yeah, no one would ever mistake you for a low-energy guy.

I mean, it's just quick talk, quick talk, quick talk.

Look, I'm from the East Coast.

Maybe it's different in Chico, but I would say you're plain laconic dude.

All right,

you don't want to have coffee.

You get jitters.

I want you to answer honestly now.

Is this health angle a serious concern of yours or are you you just patting your case?

Well, this is where it gets more serious.

I am gluten-free by necessity.

And as we can all agree, is the typical American breakfast is a barrage of gluten on the body.

And to me,

it's a little intimidating to be around.

And if I am going to buy anything that's gluten-free, it usually comes at an extra cost going back to sub-angle one.

But your kids are little gluten monsters.

They can feast on it happily?

One of them is, yes.

So gluten-free by medical necessity, I gather, right?

Yes.

Okay.

Before we go to the evidence, I just want to know if there are any other lurking angles.

Yes, I have one last lurking angle.

I guess I do want to tidy up one other thing,

is the cost factor.

I am, and so is Shinlin, a very good tipper.

And I know that this important piece of,

I guess, testimony in this process.

But my final tip, sir, stop pandering.

You already dropped a Joel Mann reference, a cast iron reference, and now a reference to our famous tipping episode.

I get it.

You're a fan of the podcast.

Believe me, the fact that you know Joel Mann's band name at the Pentago at Inn every Tuesday night till the end of September is incredible to me.

You got all the credit you're going to get out of that.

I do do apologize for the opening pandering session.

No, don't apologize.

That was a delight.

So you're a wonderful tipper.

You're a great podcast listener.

And to complete this thought is what?

To complete this is that Shinlin is a fantastic ice cream maker.

And bear with me just for 30 seconds as I wrap up this point.

She's a fantastic ice cream maker, budding entrepreneur.

I would never in a million years.

Everybody in America loves to go out and enjoy ice cream.

Who doesn't in America?

Me.

Why?

Because I would never ask my family to go out and enjoy an ice cream experience when my wife makes delicious ice cream at home.

It would be an insult.

And so in that same vein, I feel as though, with all of my points made,

why not stay at home when your husband makes a delicious breakfast that satisfies your needs?

And on special occasions, yes, we can go out.

And I believe it's totally reasonable to go out and enjoy a breakfast outing free of effort and dishes.

I rest my case.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org/slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Court is back in session.

Let's get back into the courtroom to hear more about Shenlin and Martin's breakfast dispute.

That case was well made and padded out.

I liked it.

The crux of what you're saying is, why go out when I'm a better cook?

I don't have to worry about gluten.

And also, Shenlin makes good ice cream.

I

couldn't follow that one because I was responding to a text because I got bored.

Sorry.

I'm sure it was great establishing that you're not a monster.

I got it.

And you're not.

I want to clarify, though.

You say that going out for breakfast should be a sometime choice, a special occasion.

And that going out once a week is too much.

Yes.

Was Shenlin lying when she says she wants to go out for breakfast about once a week?

No, she was not lying.

Okay.

It's not like she's trying to sneak out, you know, social breakfasts and rope you in three times a week or four times a week.

No, not at all.

Like on a what, on a Saturday or Sunday, Shenlin?

Yeah.

It's usually the weekends because Martin is a teacher and he works every morning.

What do you teach, Martin?

I teach in Live Oak, California at an elementary school.

I'm the computer teacher, kindergarten through fourth grade.

Oh, cool.

And Shenlin, you are an aspiring entrepreneur?

Yeah, I'm hoping to do

just ice cream in the community, like at markets, and maybe selling to local stores and then eventually having an ice cream shop.

Fantastic.

Well, I won't ask you for any of your flavors because that's IP.

I don't want anyone to steal your ideas.

Okay, thank you.

But are you insulted when you guys go out for ice cream, even though you make better ice cream at home?

That's also a personal dilemma because I love the ice cream shop experience.

In general, I like going out to eat.

I like being with friends and family and going out and having, you know, the atmosphere, the

service experience, and just knowing that you're going somewhere where you want to go and you want to eat and enjoy.

that moment with someone.

Yeah, I didn't hear Martin addressing that at all, that you can't recreate like the buzz and the kind of energy and the like, hey, check, please.

And like, over here, give me a coffee.

You know, that's so fun.

That was an amazing interpretation of an American diner lingo.

You want more coffee, hon?

Oh, I'm excited.

Even though that was a terrible accent.

There is part of me that is feeling like, maybe I'm in a diner right now.

That's great.

It's the place I always want to be.

I mean, she's right, Martin.

I mean, I'm about to look at some pictures of your food here, and I hope that I like what I see because you've made a serious claim that you're making home fries

better than a dude at a diner who makes home fries five hours a morning every morning of his life.

Or hers.

So that's a high bar.

I'm going to take a look at your food.

But how do you answer the complaint that at your home, you don't have the experience of going, you don't have an Irish woman saying check hun

and all the other, like, maybe you'll run into someone.

Maybe, you know, I like that waiter.

I don't, that guy doesn't give me enough whipped cream or whatever.

Like the fun of being out in the world a little and also not having to do the dishes and so on.

You can't recreate that in your house, can you?

No, and I'm certainly not blind to this fact.

And I guess my counter to that is that there are also aspects of the home experience that can't be recreated out either.

And we're building lifelong memories of dad making breakfast on Saturday or Sunday mornings, playing piano for us after breakfast, and then going and jumping out in our pool on a hot summer morning.

You don't need to recreate the home experience outside the home because you're at home a lot.

although i'm going to pre-rule that um

next time you go to the diner offer to bring along a keyboard so you can play piano

believe me

that will make some memories for your kids

all right let's go to the evidence let's take a look here let's see what you guys sent in oh look so good first of all we have evidence submitted by shenlin including testimony from your mom, Shen Lin.

Yes.

Saying, I enjoy going out for breakfast with my daughter because it's a relaxing time of the morning to sit, talk, and share our feelings, ideas, and what we've been up to lately, all while we are enjoying the goodies that we have chosen out of all the other food that is offered at a breakfast cafe, goodies that I would not normally have at home.

Breakfast cafes also offer a wider choice of coffee types and toppings I would not have at home either.

A good morning cup of coffee is such a relaxing experience that is more enjoyable spent drinking with my loved ones.

Now, let me just say something.

Oh, these outings are special and memorable family times together.

Your mom is adorable.

Yes, she is.

I now see where you get your wonderful trait of explaining what is patently obvious to all humans.

Going out to breakfast with your family is fun and it's nice.

These outings are special and memorable family times together.

That's exactly right.

Exactly right.

Shenlin's mom did not need to say it, but I'm glad that she did.

And she sent in a photo.

This is a photo of you, Shenlin.

Yes, that was at Jack's wife, Frida, in

New York.

Oh, Jack's wife's Frida.

I've been there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My friend Brittany lives in Brooklyn.

And after we got back from a long trip to France, that's where she took me for breakfast when I knew we were going to be on the show.

And I needed a really good evidence photo of a delicious breakfast.

And it did not disappoint.

I've been there and everybody was wearing a fedora.

This photo and all photos, of course, will be posted to the Judge John Hodgman page on maximumfund.org and also on our Instagram, which is at judgejohnhodgman.

And in case you don't have time to go there right now to take a look, I'm just going to explain that there's a picture of Shenlin sitting at Jack's wife Frida, a place in New York that does not advertise on the podcast, but we're chilling for it anyway.

And she's got what looks like a fried egg on toast and a little side salad and some avocado and some cream cheese and a cup of coffee.

And her hands are outstretched, sort of palm up, and she regards her breakfast breakfast lovingly.

And I think this photo was taken in the middle of her explaining what breakfast is to the table.

Your breakfast looks great.

Looks like you're having a good time.

There is no photo of Martin in here because I presume he was not.

No, he wasn't there.

Now,

Martin has submitted evidence, which consists of testimony from a friend, Daniel, that I will get to in a moment, and testimony from himself, and photos of a breakfast that he has made

for Shenlin and also photos of your home, your breakfast nook,

which is a nice clean-looking breakfast nook and a kitchen, which is a nice clean kitchen.

Setting aside, this is not an interior decor fight.

This is a breakfast fight.

Look at these potatoes and these eggs that Martin made.

Martin says, here is an example of a typical full-course breakfast, Martin.

You're the one speaking here, right, Martin?

Yes.

Right?

This is your testimony.

This is your affidavit.

So when you say Martin, you're referring to yourself in the third person?

Yes.

Uh-huh.

Well, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'll be going.

I mean, he is a robot.

Here is an example of a typical full course breakfast human designate Martin makes at least once a week,

which illustrates why going out is undesirable and unnecessary.

You, meaning me, Judge John Hodgwin, will notice in this picture, at the forefront are perfectly prepared homestyle potatoes seasoned with salt, coriander, fennel, and garlic, crispy on the outside, soft and sweet in the middle.

These are those homestyle potatoes.

In the background are scrambled eggs topped with a shaved aged cheddar, garden-fresh basil, also used as a garnish, and a balsamic reduction glaze at home.

This all-organic meal costs, May Viggins, you want to take a guess?

How much does this cost at home?

$13?

At home?

Oh,

$13?

$3.

Martin's done the math.

When you say garden fresh, is that basil coming from your garden?

Plucked from our own garden.

Right.

Three bucks.

He amortized it somehow with second helpings of potatoes available to the human heart's content.

You know what?

It looks good.

It looks good, Martin.

I like it.

The homestyle potatoes look very nicely crisped.

The eggs look a little overdone.

I would not put balsamic glaze on my eggs, but to each his or her or their own.

Clearly, you take great pleasure and pride.

And Shenlin, the proof is in the eating, right?

How are those potatoes?

Are they good or what?

Because they look good.

They are absolutely delicious.

Yeah.

That looks like a meal that would be served at a restaurant.

Jack's wife's Trita, you know what that would cost, Shenlin?

Oh, yeah, probably.

$135.

Plus tax and tip.

But you're right.

I think probably $17.

You can't be dropping that cash all the time.

Question.

I understand from the court documents, Shanlin, that though you are an aspiring ice cream empress, you currently are at home with the kids, right?

You have income coming in.

Yes.

And I'm also a part-time preschool teacher.

Should I be sensitive to Martin's argument that this is perhaps going out to breakfast once a week is perhaps a strain on the budget of two teachers and parents?

Yes, that is a valid argument.

And I think that is.

I mean, obviously it's a valid argument in life, right?

That we all have to live within our budgets.

But is it a valid argument in your life?

Yes.

Okay.

All right.

I thought he was saying it's going to cost too much money because you can't afford it, but he doesn't want to.

But it does, you're saying that it you could save some money in this area and it would probably be a good thing, right?

Yeah, I think

we

are conscious of how much we're spending outside of our monthly food budget and just knowing that we can make,

you know, certain.

He actually broke down the number for me of however, I do not remember the number.

He actually might, but it was some sort of like

number calculating if we went out to breakfast once, how many home breakfasts we would not be able to have.

Now, why did you not present this mathematical evidence, Martin?

Were you concerned of how it might make you look and seem?

I was waiting to close with that, Your Honor.

All right.

I'll allow it.

I was wondering, like, what you were teaching these very young children about computers, and now I'm like, oh, they were feeding in the stats.

Kids, I have a hypothetical problem I'd like you to solve.

But on the money thing, I just want to push back a little because of course all of us could save money.

Like it's hard to justify spending money on something that you could be doing at home.

That's always tough, especially if you have little smallies.

But the things that you that are hard to put a, you know, value on, like, you know, a tradition with your children or like having your children know how to, you know, dine out and, you know, meeting your family in a low pressure situation where you can leave and also you're not stuck with your family all day sticking around your home.

Like there's other things that are harder to cost.

And so, those should be taken into account as well.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

And, and I would say, in terms of the experience that you are creating and sharing and ideally enjoying, you know, going to the wrong place to eat out of the house can be a real drag if you go to a place that you have high hopes for and it turns out to be a junk hole.

Yeah.

Martin, is it this situation here that Shenlin and her mom are picking trash holes to go to?

That's definitely a big part of it.

They're not picking trash holes.

However,

as you probably can imagine based on some of my

statements so far, I'm

becoming more aware that I'm a foodie.

I'm a little bit of a food snob.

And there is really only one place here in Chico that I really enjoy going out to breakfast.

And I'm not, again, I'm not blind to the enjoyment of going out.

I love lunch and dinner because it's a much more diverse, and that's what I actually promote more is, hey, why don't we go out to lunch and dinner later today instead?

Because it's a much more diverse meal.

But, and there's, there's more options in the Chico area that I believe are really high-quality foods in the lunch and dinner area.

But breakfast, there's one place that I really enjoy, but it does cost a little more.

It's a little bit more like the Jack's wife Frida sort of vibe, which I enjoy.

Go ahead and tell us the name of the Jack's wife Frida of Chico.

Jack's cousin Ashanti.

It's called Roots Catering.

Roots Catering and Chico.

Yeah, they originally started as a catering company and then opened up their space.

And they venture a little bit away from the typical, you know, gluten fest, and they have a little bit more creativity.

And like, again, there's nothing wrong.

I enjoy a good pancake every now and then, but to have it regularly during the breakfast and then have the pancake coma afterwards, you know, it just kind of leaves me saying I could start my day a little bit better a different way.

All right, I think something's coming into focus here and I'd like to explore it.

But first of all, can you have a pancake or are you just like chomping down on it with an EpiPen in your hand?

I thought you couldn't eat gluten.

You can make gluten-free ones pretty easy these days.

So when you say, I enjoy a gluten-free pancake as much as anybody, what you're basically saying is, I don't like pancakes.

But I mean, this might be part of the issue here, because what is breakfast to you, Shenlin?

What does breakfast mean?

What is the food you're going to have?

Earlier, there was that question about if I was talking about brunch and or just pastries and coffee.

And I should clarify, as well as the testimony my mom made, that

usually the places we pick for breakfast have all of it.

It's like a cafe/slash breakfast.

So there's they have like eggs scrambled, which I like, omelets, some sort of like sausage option,

like maybe a side of fruit.

I mean, I'm pretty much describing the American, exactly what Mario was saying he doesn't like,

which I enjoyed.

You're describing a restaurant.

I was just going to say that, like, I think, Shannon, your case would be a bit stronger if if you liked to eat, you know, like special things to go out for breakfast for like French toast with blueberries or I don't even like huevos rancheros or like something a little bit different than the kind of you know eggs and

just like eggs and potatoes that you're so fixed on.

How dare you?

How dare you, Maeve?

Eggs and potatoes are the only thing that matters in life.

Well, I can say that for my birthday this year, which is the same as Judge John Hodgman's birthday.

She can pander too.

All right.

I can.

I've been waiting to pull that one up.

I went to a place in Chico called Sin of Cortez, and they do a lot of gluten-free options.

And one of them, they did a strawberry and cream pancake, which was out of this world.

It was really delicious to me.

And so that has kind of lived on in my memory in the last two months.

What did Martin think of this strawberry and cream pancake?

Or was he not there to try it?

Because he didn't come out on your birthday because he disapproves.

Well, he did not attend,

but

there is a very good reason for it.

He was actually at home coordinating something.

Yeah, I can't go.

I've got to finish making these potatoes.

Sorry, what was the excuse?

He was coordinating something for you, a party?

He was coordinating a surprise party for me,

as well as coordinating child care with both our kids at home.

That must have been a day of emotional lows and highs where you're having breakfast

on your birthday boycotted by your own husband for reasons unknown, and then you come home.

He's like, surprise.

Surprise, I do love you after all.

I just want to get to Martin's letter from Daniel before I go to make my decision, because I feel as though

I've pretty much heard what I need to, but Daniel wrote two full paragraphs about

Martin's cooking.

I'm beginning to feel that Daniel,

Daniel might be a human, or he might be another one of these Cylon compatriots.

It's weird that he starts human designate Martin.

His eggs are perfectly cooked with just the right amount of tenderness to the yolk.

His gluten-free toast is crisp yet doughy

and generously lavished with high-quality butter.

The greens come right from the garden, which he painstakingly cares for like his third child.

His plating is highly Instagrammable, often demanding upwards of five whole minutes of everyone taking pictures before we are ready to dive in.

The condiments are abundant.

And perfectly, this guy should get a job writing menus for bed and breakfasts.

The condiments are abundant.

I like that.

Teasy prepares iced in the summer, hot and winter always result in an argument on the car ride home between my fiancé and I, as she requests I bring more to the arena in terms of being a domestic baristo.

I've gotten so caught up in this extravagant food, I almost forgot to mention the decor.

And then we talk about your house, whites, and perfectly blended pastels.

Compliment, this is what I wanted to get to.

The immaculate cast iron cookware.

Martin, I don't see any pictures of your cast iron in here.

You come to this game

dropping references to night and day, Joel Mann's jazz band in Kastine, Maine.

You're not even taking a picture of your cast iron to show me and try to sway me?

What are you rocking in the cast iron department?

What do you got?

I wish that I had the cast iron,

the USA cast iron, but it's it's a typical cast iron that you would find at a big box store and one that's named after a notable cook.

Oh.

There's a TV chef who's shilling for cast iron now.

He's got a brand of cast iron.

Oh, is it

the Italian guy?

Yep.

That's the one.

What's him?

Emerald.

Emeril Agasi is a cast iron brand.

Hold the roll.

I'm going to check it out.

I don't mean to like pile on, but isn't that the case that your cast iron shouldn't be immaculate?

It should be kind of seasoned and messy.

Yeah, they're well seasoned.

Oh, they're well seasoned.

Okay, so when he says immaculate, he doesn't mean like clean and new.

And what was the cast iron that you wished that you had?

I'm blanking on the American brand

that's kind of the gold standard for cast iron.

Well,

Lodge

is the most common cast iron brand in the United States.

Yes, Lodge, that's the one.

But you know what it is.

It's just cast iron.

I don't care if it's got Emerald's name on it.

He's a good chef.

People forget.

Emerald knows what he's doing.

One of the best meals I ever had was at Emerald's in New Orleans.

He's good.

He's a real good chef.

And this material, of course, is

almost the definition of a blunt instrument.

It is just iron that has been cast in the shape of a pan.

And it just is raw iron, and you take care of it.

I'm guarantee you that you're cooking with something that is absolutely comparable to anything you would buy from Lodge.

And this is a real aside here to this whole podcast because I'm gradually transforming this podcast into a cast iron podcast.

But if you want Lodge, dude, you go out and get it, boyfriend.

Just, it's not expensive.

I mean, I appreciate that you're both teachers, but I can't imagine that it would be more expensive than Emerald, although, unless you got this super on sale.

And of course, the real cast iron you want to get, as I've said time and time again, is you go to a yard sale, you go to a garage sale, you go to a junk store or whatever, and you look for those old brands that they they don't make anymore.

Your Griswolds, your Wagner, I bet you would have out there in California, be a Wagner town.

That's like the Midwestern, Western brand.

And you get those, and they're thinner and they're lighter because they make them in a different way now.

And you can just strip it down and refinish it.

Check out my Instagram stories to figure out how to do that.

I don't get any money from that.

I don't put my name on that.

The real question is: are you taking care of it well enough?

Do you scrape off all the food and put a a little bit more oil on?

Are they well seasoned?

You feel good about your cast iron pans?

I'm very good to them.

I think Shinlin could confirm that.

Don't ever let Emeral Lagasse's name get in the way of your bragging on your cast iron pants.

There's nothing wrong with Emerald Lagasse.

And, you know, like you said earlier on that you're discovering that you're a bit of a foodie.

Don't malign yourself that way.

Foodieism is a preoccupation preoccupation with food as status as much as it is with food as food.

It's like hipsterism, where

you use the thing you love as a cudgel to prove your superiority over other people.

So when hipsters are talking about bands, they're really trying to show off their taste rather than actually sharing in the enjoyment of a thing.

That's what I think of foodieism.

Obviously, I think about food a lot.

I need it to live.

I enjoy it.

It's what I would default want to be doing all the time.

I mean, I think you and I have something in common here in that all I ever want to be doing is making eggs.

It's all I ever want to be doing.

I want to be making eggs right now.

Me too.

You know, it's a beautiful meditative process where you are taking insane chaos and turning it into delicious order.

And I'll do it, find excuses to make an egg all the time.

Loving food in that way, you have to appreciate, A, that that's not foodism, and B, that Emerald Lagasse, I think, did almost as much as Julia Child did in her time for for bringing a cognizance to good ingredients and different techniques to the home kitchen and is overall a force for good.

You know, obviously he also pioneered a kind of celebrity chefdom which can be taken to toxic extremes, right?

But

a lot of people who had never heard the term Radikia before heard it first from Emerald Gassi in the 90s, and that's good.

It put pressure on our supermarkets to carry better, more quality ingredients.

And ideally, it put pressure or an impetus into American households to cook more at home, which is of profound value, not just to the way we live our lives and share our lives, but the way we treat our bodies.

I think you might think

you know where I'm going with my verdict in saying these things.

But before I reveal my verdict, I'll leave you in suspense and say, I'm now going to go into my emerald LaGlossy-branded cast iron chambers to think this over.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Shanlin, how are you feeling?

I think surely that last

bit was a blow for you.

Or what do you think?

Yeah, that caught me off guard.

But up until that point, I was feeling pretty good about

my

case.

And I actually was going to thank you.

I think you made a lot of points for me inadvertently.

I don't know.

But in general, I think it's kind of a hard case to make for Martin, but I feel like he presented it well.

Martin, how are you feeling about the case?

You know, I'm.

I'm kind of torn about it as general listening of the case, but I feel like I've been reasonable and I don't want to come across like I hate breakfast or I hate going out.

I love my family.

I love Shin's parents.

It's, you know, I think that the judge has heard where I'm coming from and I'm hoping that there's a well-rounded, very well-being.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show, Let's Learn Everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Well-seasoned verdict that he comes up with.

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we return in just a moment.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

First of all, I had some scrapple while thinking this over.

I make scrapple really well.

If you guys don't know what scrapple is out there in Chico, California, I can tell you that it is

exactly as advertised loaf of scrap pig meat that is formed together into a loaf with cornmeal, traditionally by the Pennsylvania Dutch, as a way of using every part of the hog that they had raised.

And you take the snouts and the ears and the leftovers and you season them with sage and, as I say, add cornmeal and then refrigerate it as a loaf.

And then you cut the loaf and you fry it.

It is a staple of diner food in the mid-Atlantic states, in Philadelphia, in Baltimore.

And weirdly, you can get it here in Blue Hill, Maine at the Trade Winds Market.

Joel, you ever get Scrapple at the Trade Winds?

No.

I am still befuddled by how how it was that Scrapple found its way to Maine.

Do you have any thoughts?

They have it in the world section, right?

No, it's in the frozen foods.

It's hidden next to the waffles.

But let me tell you something.

As I say, it is a staple of diners all up and down the mid-Atlantic coast.

I know how to make it perfectly at home.

It's not the same.

as eating it at the late lamented Little Pete's diner in Philadelphia.

It's not there anymore.

You can't go there anymore.

And you know what?

You're sad that you can't go there anymore because some experiences are not replicable.

Because, as Maeve pointed out, and as Shenlin agreed, there is something about going out to eat that is different from staying home to eat.

And they are both valuable experiences.

No matter what the comparative cost is,

they both have a distinct value.

Neither one is better than the other necessarily.

Of course, it all goes down to what you can afford, you know, in terms of your time and your finances, in terms of how much you value the going out to eat experience, that social experience of going out and finding a place that you love and inserting yourself into a community of regulars and people who go there or the neighborhood that it exists in, making a night of it, making a morning of it, getting to see friends that you don't normally see or the same friends in a different context.

And of course, not having to do the work and enjoying the inspiration of someone else cooking.

At both high-fine dining and low, you know, hash house dining.

You find the right place.

It's a wonderful experience that is not replicable at home.

And home, of course, offers things that cannot ever be replicated in a going-out environment.

You know, not merely the control of the ingredients and the minute control of the texture of your potatoes and the obvious benefit of savings for your pocketbook, but also the fact that, you know, someone in your home is cooking for other people in your home, that it is a different kind of generosity and sharing.

You know, it's just a different thing.

And then Martin plays the piano or whatever.

We all put up with that because he thinks it's special and it gets in making a memory for his children.

You know, all we can really do in life is make memories, you know, whether you're making them for your children or for yourself.

And I wouldn't want to live a life where the only memory you had was one or the other of these two different kind of breakfast experiences.

You know, you have to have

a diverse menu within your means, a diverse menu of both kinds of experiences, you know, and it's just really a question of how often a going out or staying home works for you.

And this is one of those things where it works more for one individual than another individual in this particular marriage.

So, hang on, there was another thing.

Maybe it's lost forever.

Like tears in the rain.

That's a quote from a famous android in Blade Runner.

Martin, you might enjoy the.

You might get that reference.

Whatever it is, I was going to say, it's gone now.

But I like all the things I said so far.

And it might surprise you now to hear that I'm going to rule in Martin's favor.

Martin's concern about cost is a reasonable one,

but it is a concern that solves itself.

When he does not want to waste his money on food that he finds to be junky or bad or not to his liking, he doesn't go.

He stays home.

And guess what?

The bill is less.

I would say

it's profoundly awkward.

There's a natural check on spending in that situation.

Shen Lin likes to go out more.

She places more value on that experience.

And she should be able to go out more without feelings of shame or guilt to the places that she likes.

I think that it is a case case that Shen Lin is probably willing to accept sub-par food for better company.

No offense, Shen Lin.

I assume you have great tastes.

But I mean, there are a lot of restaurants out there, particularly, you know, in a sort of mid-range family dining where, you know,

the food isn't so great, or maybe they do one or two things well, and that's all you can eat there.

You know what I mean?

And Martin is getting to be a snob over here about the food that he puts in his body.

He doesn't want to spend his time or his money on the ballast of bad pancakes.

And I think that's a respectable position to take.

And I think it's fine for him to stay home more often than he goes out.

If he doesn't want to go out, he should not be compelled to do so, with some exceptions.

One being,

Shenlin deserves to go out to a restaurant with her family.

And I'm talking about

her husband and children

a couple of times a month.

That's nice to do.

So if the baseline for Shenlin is four outside breakfasts per month, right, one per weekend, which I think is, if it's within your means, a totally normal thing for a family to do,

Martin, I think, is on the hook for two of those.

I think that's fair.

Shenlin, I think you're fair to go out

those other two weekends for sure.

See your mom.

see your friends, bring kids or whatever.

But if Martin's not feeling it, it's fine.

It's fine for him to stay home, guilt-free.

And I think you should take advantage of Martin's willingness to make breakfast.

I mean, there are two breakfasts in every weekend.

There's no zero-sum game here.

You can have the best of both worlds.

And Martin, you do need to go out two times.

This is not just to be equitable with your wife and the things that she values in her life and to not be the weirdo who stays home while your wife and children go out and eat alone.

It is also because you're not a foodie, but you're interested in food.

So you should be out out there tasting it, exploring the places that make food in your area that you like, taking chances on weird, out-of-the-way places that you didn't ever think to try, going to places and evaluating what they're doing right and what they're not doing right, and getting inspiration for stuff that you might go back and make at home.

If you're someone who wants to take food seriously as a hobby and as a very nourishing hobby at that, this is part of your repertoire is to go out there, even at breakfast, even a bad meal is an instruction to you about what to avoid.

So, insofar as I was asked in the court documents to absolve Martin from any guilt for staying home,

I am ruling in his favor with the caveat that he needs to join you for two outside breakfasts a month and otherwise continue to feed each other well, you guys.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Shanlin, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling really good.

That felt

like

I

was heard and also that

Martin is now tied to coming out twice a month with me to breakfast.

And I think it's interesting that there was not only that note about going wherever but to embrace it and just see what can come from that.

That's not something I was expecting at all.

And so I'm looking forward to where we end up going.

Yeah, I think we were all thrown by just so much talk about the cast iron pan, but like we didn't know what was going to happen.

Martin, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling really good about it, too.

I feel like I was also equally heard in this case, and that

my strongest points and my core beliefs were not compromised in this verdict, I feel like I can easily support it.

Well, Shenlin and Martin, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another case is in the books.

Before we dispense on Swift Justice, we want to thank Gavin Pouliat for naming this week's episode Waffle House Arrest.

If you would like to name a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

We regularly put out a call for submissions there.

Hashtag your JudgeJohnHodgman tweets, hashtag JJHO, and check out the Maximum Fund subreddit to discuss this episode.

You can find evidence from this week's episode on our Instagram, which is at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

This week's episode was recorded by Nolan Ford at North State Public Radio in Chico, California, Ivan Kuriev at Argo Studios in New York City, and by Joel Mann at WERU Radio in Orland, Maine.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmor.

Now let's get to Swift Justice where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Kelly says, my husband gives me guff when I use the word malleable to describe something other than metal.

I am in capital letters.

I'm sorry.

Wait,

let me understand this.

Her husband gives her guff when she uses the term malleable to describe something other than literally manipulating metal.

Yes.

Blacksmithing.

She goes on to say,

I am an English teacher.

And she shouts that.

It's in all caps and there's a double exclamation point.

Please make my engineer husband stop being a bigger pedant than me.

Judge Hodgman, what do you say?

Well, it is true that our former friend, the Marion Webster Dictionary, and I do say former, while I remain,

fond and cordial friendship with Emily Brewster, who works for the Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

Do not think I haven't noticed, Merriam-Webster, your constant trolling of this podcast by defining a hot dog as a sandwich.

I know what you're doing on Twitter.

I know that you're doing that to annoy me.

And guess what?

Mission accomplished.

Hot dog is not a sandwich.

But the first definition in Merriam-Webster, you know what it is, Joel Mann?

I do not judge.

First definition of malleable?

No.

Capable of being extended or shaped by beating with a hammer or by the pressure of rollers, specifically metal being shaped with a hammer, blacksmithing.

But definition two is also something like being easily swayed,

in your opinion.

Being malleable, right?

Malleable.

It's a word we all use.

Flexible.

Yeah, flexible.

Right.

I don't insist that you use the word flexible only when talking about tendons.

So I would suggest that Kelly's husband be more malleable.

Specifically, I think he needs to be shaped by beating with a hammer.

I got Joel Mann on that one.

I got a chuckle from Joel.

Taciturn Joel breaks.

Maeve, I just want to thank you for being our guest bailiff these past two weeks.

You're there in New York where I live, and I enjoy seeing you all the time there.

And we've talked about it a lot, but I'm just going to say it again.

Everyone should go check out Maeve Higgins.

If you don't know who she is, you've made a terrible mistake in your life.

MaeveHiggins.com will tell you about her new book, Maeve in America, which you should buy in print and in audio.

It'll tell you about her new podcast, Mothers of Invention, a podcast about climate change and feminism that she's been recording with the former president of Ireland, consorting with presidents.

I appreciate it so much, but you know, I've learned a lot like recording these two weeks with you, John, and your

keen sense of fairness.

You know, I hope that it rubs off on me.

I hope so because

you're very charming, but you've always been extremely unfair.

It's one of the things we've all been saying about you for a long time.

I know, it's just me.

That's just me.

I'm unfair.

All right, for the Judge John Hodgman Show here in Maine, New York, and beyond to Chico, California, this is see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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