Swipe Right to Remain Silent

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
Judge John Hodgman is away from court this week, having a summer vacation. Our guest judge is Cristella Alonso.

This week, swipe right to remain silent. Philip brings the case against his girlfriend, Rachel.
The two of them met on an online dating app. Rachel wants to tell people they met another way.

Philip thinks they should just be honest. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one woman can decide.
Please rise as Judge Cristella Alonso enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

A beautiful girl named Lily loves Jack with all her heart. In their innocence, they believe only goodness exists in the world.

Together, they will learn there can be no good without evil, no love without hate, no heaven without hell, no light without darkness.

Philip and Rachel, please rise. Raise your right hands.
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God, or whatever. Yes.
Yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge Cristella Alonso's ruling, despite the fact that she's not even a real fake judge? Yes. Yes.

Judge Alonso, you may proceed.

Philip and Rachel, you may be seated. Now, first of all, I know that we're in a courtroom, but I want to let you know, look, I'm the substitute teacher of the judge world.
You know what I mean?

Like, I am here. Like, you know,

if we could, I would just show you a movie and just count down to lunch. But, you know,

I'm not here to be stuffy pants, you know. Good news, guys.
We're watching Square One.

MathNet, MathNet, MathNet. I used to love MathNet one.
Oh, MathNet was the greatest.

Oh, MathNet was the first murder show I ever saw, like the murder type show where it's just, it's criminals and we're finding them out with fractions. I love that.
So just lay back.

We're going to have some fun.

Judge Alonso. What? Is this a cold beer in the courtroom?

Ah, you didn't say I couldn't.

Are these otter pops?

Are we almost done inflating that cactus-shaped pool float?

So really quick for an immediate summary, judgment, and one of your favors. Can either of you name the awesome piece of pop culture I referenced when I entered the courtroom?

No judgment, only know that if you don't get it, you're not cool in my eyes. Philip, let's start with you.
Can you take a guess? My guess is the notebook.

Uh, the book.

The notebook. Fun fact, in Spanish, it would be El Cuaderno.
This is also a Rosetta Stone version. Oh, wow.

It's an English-Spanish immersion program. Here we go.
Got it. And Rachel, what is your guess? I'm going to guess the movie You've Got Mail.

Ooh, we have to go to the next one. That would have been apropos.
Yes. They both had sort of romantic guesses locked in the chamber already.
Yes, actually, yes.

You know, what's funny is that I have never seen The Notebook and I have never seen You've Got Mail. And guess what, you guys? Both of you were wrong.
Ooh.

You guys, I was worried about this quote because honestly, I thought that everybody would know this quote because I love this movie. And you don't have a lot of perspective on the world.

Which is actually why I totally misjudged it. I thought that my quote was going to be so obvious.
And now I realize that I am probably not cool myself. So here is the answer.

Where is the pop culture reference from? It's from a smash hit movie back in 1985 starring Tom Cruise. It's called Legend.
Oh, wow. Do you remember?

Did you see Legend? I have never seen Legend, but that does seem like something that Judge John Hodgman litigants should know.

Well, you know, for me, I love fantasy. I like sci-fi.
And when I was a kid in the 80s, not to date myself, but I just did. It was a really big genre back then.
You actually had fantasy.

You had unicorns. You had devils.

I love that because in those movies, that was actually very relevant to love. There was always a love story, whether it was between men, women, the lead character, and the universe.

There was always some kind of mission about love, which I completely love because I think that

this case specifically, what I like about it is that it actually covers a different version of love, yet still the same version of love. The approach might be different.

Computer love.

Roger Troutman, go.

I love it. So let's see.
Philip, we'll start with you. Tell me a little bit about the dispute we're here to talk about with Rachel.
What can you give me? What's the beef?

Okay, well, Rachel and I met through an online dating app called Bumble.

Wow, buzz marketing right out of the gate.

The goose is away. Fun fact, Philip's last name is Bumble.
His family created the business. Well, his family created both Bumble and Bumble and Bumble.

I know. They're like, you know what? Why fix it if your name broke.
The bumble and bumble and bumble bumbles?

Oh, you know, they're from bumble.

So, Philip, okay, you met on an online dating site, app. Continue.

Yes, so we met on the app about a year ago.

And

we have been asked, you know, just out in public or among our friends or people we meet at various events how we met.

I think people ask this to

a lot of couples and

I feel comfortable telling them that we met through this app.

That has been the status quo so far.

Rachel feels that

I don't think she's totally comfortable telling people we met through the app. Philip, have you online dated before? No.

Okay, so this is a first for you. And Rachel, have you tried online dating before? No, this was also a first for me.
It was the first person I ever actually went on a date with from an

online dating.

Actually, I went on one date before

Rachel. It was just one.

Was it on the same generic not named app that we're talking about or a different one? The same one. Oh, okay.
Wait a minute. We're talking about apps? Let's get some for the table.

I'm here. How about some queso?

All right. Rachel, this sounds normal.
It's mainstream now. I want to know what makes you uncomfortable about telling people how you guys met.

So a lot of it has to do with my job or trying to get a job. I just finished graduate school in ministry and looking for a job in a church.

So while the online dating may be less stigmatized in other places, it definitely still has stigma when I'm looking for a job.

And they ask very personal questions in church interviews and they want to know about my love life and when I tell them that I met someone on an app they seem very hesitant and they don't really know what to do with it and I definitely feel judged.

Well here's a question though. I mean I know that there's actually faith-based dating apps.

So if you had told them that you met on those apps, do you think that the members of the church that you are interviewing with, would they have a problem with that or would they accept it because it's faith-based?

I don't think it would have mattered too much to them. I think it's just kind of of a foreign idea to them in general.

So basically, your concern is more about professional reasons, career-wise, right?

Other than that, if your prospects, your job prospects didn't include having to work with religious entities, would that mean that you would be okay with the story being told to people?

Would you be more comfortable? I think somewhat.

I think part of me still feels a little hesitant to tell people, even in social situations, because I feel like they may think that we're social outcasts or we don't have any social skills.

I know, like lots of my friends, when I tell them how we met, they're like, oh, okay.

And then they don't really want to ask me anything else about my relationship with Philip, which I think is sad because he's a great person. I'd like to share him, tell them more.

But they just kind of, maybe it's just the area we live in or something, but they just kind of ends up being a conversation ender.

Rachel,

what would you prefer to to tell the priest that you're job interviewing with? I have thought of just saying something bland like we went to the same college or that we have a mutual friend.

Well, in a way, I mean, you're actually not far from the truth. I mean, really, you know, if you said

we met by bumping into each other, I mean, that's actually technically not a lie because you did. You just don't have to say what platform.

And if you kind of ease the pronunciation to like bumping into each other,

then it's even more true.

Because bumbing is what young people call meeting each other on a bumble.

I don't know if you've thought of this, Rachel, but you could potentially give them like a more religious explanation, like you met at a wafer store

or

a rogue rental house.

We were both thirsty and we wanted to take communion.

We broke up in a bottle of communion and we just got fun.

Really quick side note, I just wanted to let you know that I have personally never tried online dating.

So I like hearing both of these perspectives because you are actually introducing me into a lot of different areas that I myself have wondered about yet never talked to people about.

And it's very interesting and great to have different perspectives on this because I'm learning a lot. So thank you guys for that.

Philip. What is your opinion about Rachel's idea? Do you understand it? How do you take that in? I understand where she's coming from.

I guess my difference is just that I don't feel there's a really a stigma there,

especially around people our age.

I know that both of us have several friends who have met through

this app or an app.

And

again, we've never really had a negative reaction

to it. At least I haven't.

So I don't have that firsthand experience that she has

so I'm sure that

contributes to why she holds this opinion what do you do for a living I'm a journalist I write for the newspaper here

ah so you have the freedom of speech on your side so the freedom of speech allows you to be open with everybody and tell them how you met because that's really inside you that's a part of your fiber that's you know plus he's got that press card tucked into the hat band of his fedora

You know, we all have those visors, fedoras, everything. He can park wherever he wants.

So he just has a carefree lifestyle. He has

that super ultra-important.

He's got that giant flashbulb on his camera. Yes.
The kind where every time he takes a picture, he has to replace the bulb. That's how great it is.

Let's take a quick recess to hear about this week's sponsor. When we come back, more with Judge Cristella Alonso.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Well, you know that the pros love to use Made In because it's pro-quality cookware, tableware, glassware, everythingware.

We're talking about Tom Calicio, Brooke Williamson, the pros, but many, many other people who are not professional chefs, but avid home cooks, like maybe Jesse Thorne and maybe me, Judge John Hodgman, love made-in too.

Judge Hodgman, I was at a store the other day. I saw some made-in stuff.
I gave it a hug. Yeah.

You were at a store and you saw some made-in stuff and you gave it a hug.

Look, I'm glad you're hugging made-in carbon steel pans, or entree bowls, or carbon steel griddles, or their beautiful nonstick line of pans, or their stock pots, or their knives.

Be careful hugging the knives because they're really sharp. They're pro quality.
But the fun thing about made-in is you don't have to go to a store to get it.

In fact, they're so reasonably priced in part because they're available to you online right now at madeincookware.com. And not only that,

they're made from professionals and a company that has evolved from a 100-year-old kitchen supply business. And craftspeople have been working in this for multiple generations.

I'm telling you, the stuff is really good. I cook with it every day.
And

I can't wait for a glass to break or a platter to shatter so I can go over to Made In and replace it right there. For full details, visit madeincookware.com.

That's M-A-D-E-I-N m-a-d-e-i-ncookware.com. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Aura Frames.
Now, John, as we sit here and discuss this right now,

my mother, Judith,

has just entered my house. My delight, by the way.
She is an absolute audience. Oh, let me say hi to her.
No,

she's in the house. It's like 80 feet away.
But the good news is she's always connected with my family, not just when she's in my house, because of the Aura frame that I gave her.

Even my 80-year-old mother,

who is

no great shakes with technology,

is able to operate that Aura frame. She just plugged it in, connected it to the Wi-Fi.
It was full of pictures of family members that she loves.

All I have to do, if we take a cute new picture of Let's say my dog Jr.

I'm mostly taking pictures. Sorry of my children.

All you do is hit that send button, that same send button on your phone that you would use to text message it to somebody, and you can just shoot it straight into an aura frame.

Honestly, I'm thinking about getting an aura frame right now just dedicated to pictures of your dogs. Yeah, I think that's a good call.

Mabel's in there looking all little, little and cute. You know how much you love sending photos to your friends and family, things that you see, people that you know, things that you do.

I mean, you love it. It's a gift that you give every day, probably.
But I mean, no one loves to look at their phone to see those photos.

What they really enjoy, I really enjoy because I have an Aura frame, is seeing all those memories pop up on a beautiful high-resolution screen and knowing that my family can see the photos that I share with them exactly the same way.

You don't need to download anything. You don't need to download your photos to a SIM card and then drive all the way to Brookline to see my dad to put your photos on his Aura frame.

All you need to do is select your photos, send them to the app, and they're on their way. You could get an Aura frame for a loved one today.

You don't even even need to take it out of the box before you load it up with photos that they're going to love. There's a code you scan, you do it without basically no human hands involved.

By the time they open it, it's preloaded with all the photos that you've chosen for them. It's delightful.

I was just saying to my wife as a whole human being in her own right, why have we not given your dad an aura frame? Guess what we're going to do? Sorry, I don't mean to spoil the secret, Brad.

You're getting an aura.

This is good news for you and for Brad.

For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte frames, named number one by Wirecutter, by using promo code Hodgman at checkout.

That's A-U-R-AFrames.com, promo code Hodgman. Now, this deal is exclusive to listeners, and frames do sell out fast.
So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays.

And support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

Court is back in session. You're listening to Swipe Right to Remain Silent with guest judge Cristella Alonzo.
Let's get back into the courtroom to hear more from our litigants, Philip and Rachel.

Rachel, I want to know: have you actually told anybody where they accept it and made you feel more confident? Or is that just an assumption?

Do your friends tell you that it's weird, or do you think they tell you by actions?

Yeah, I think it's more about body language and just the conversation ending very quickly. They'll ask me how we met and I'll say we met through this app and they're like, oh, that's cool.

And that kind of they maybe ask one follow-up question and maybe it's that I feel a little uncomfortable and so my response to them is awkward, but it just kind of ends the conversation quickly.

Now with your friends when they start dating somebody, is there more of a conversation? Like, do you start getting into details? You know, like what kind of car does he drive?

You know, all the important things that speak from the heart. Do you have a conversation or is it a similar situation that you experience?

I think I generally try to ask people

as much details as they're wanting to give.

I don't want to overwhelm them or ask too much or get in their way or something, but I think it's fun to just talk to your girlfriends about their dating life. Well, sure, that's friendship, right?

I mean, you have to talk about everything, you know, and feel comfortable in speaking that. Of course, that's what friends are for.
Rachel, what kind of follow-up questions are you imagining will come

after we met on an app? Other than maybe which app?

Yeah,

that's pretty much it. So, what do you feel like is missing? Like, why do you feel like people are shutting down and not just that that's a boring answer?

Do you think that they're going to say, like, oh, is the guy a robot? You know, are you dating a laptop? What is that? Were you catfished?

If you were catfished, then it would be immediately be a great story that would require a lot of follow-up. Absolutely.

I'm worried for you, Rachel, that you might be presuming that people are shutting down when, in fact, there's just no good follow-up questions to answer.

Like, what did you guys chat about in the chat window?

What's your favorite emoji?

What did you like about a tiny picture of him?

I guess I want them to ask about what it was like when we finally met. What was our first date like? How did we decide to keep going on dates? Things like that.
Rachel, what was your first date?

We went to a Thai restaurant and we ate really quickly, I remember. And then we went to an ice cream shop.
That's where we saw our mutual friend.

And that was it. It was on a Wednesday night.
It was kind of strange. Is your mutual friend Mr.
Softy?

Softy bumble.

So, wait a minute. So your first date, you had Thai.
Then you went to ice cream and you saw a mutual friend on your first date? We did.

Oh, that's interesting. Was the friend romantic at all?

No.

No, someone that I worked at my school and that Philip knew as a friend. And I think we both just really respect this person and we both knew them.

And that made us feel more confident about us hanging out again. Oh, you took it as a sign.
Yes. That's good.
And Philip, you know, you seem very open about it.

So do you worry about anything that people might say to you when you tell them that you met on this app?

I don't really have any worries. The several times that I've talked to my friends about it or that they have asked,

and I say we met on this app, almost every time a friend has said that, oh, I met

my girlfriend or boyfriend through this app, or I've been thinking about joining this app. What can you tell me about it? How was your experience? They ask you for a Yelp review in a way.
Yeah. Yes.

How long have the two of you been together? Almost a year. So here's an interesting question.
You met on that specific app and I want to... Let's just say it.
Mozzarella sticks.

You met on the same app and I want to know, you know, what drew you both to that specific app? What made you think, you know, I'm going to bite the bullet, go in and try it out?

So for me, this app, this specific app, it lets the girls message the guys first. Sure.

So I guess to cut down on maybe like skeezy messages that you get or

bad pictures or something.

So you can swipe on people still, but the girl has to be the first person to reach out to the guy. And they're very adamant, I think, about blocking people who behave badly on the app.

things like that.

You know, what I find interesting actually is that you are seeking a job in, you know, a faith-based field and yet what you did, your choices, are actually a little the opposite of what you expect in someone in that world.

You know, just speaking from myself, I grew up in a very,

very religious household, you know, where, you know, my mom used to always tell me, like, you do not date until you get married.

So actually, it's very interesting that you are kind of, in a way, you're kind of a a rule breaker, but like a groundbreaker too, just by even deciding to use the app because it's completely different from the world that you're seeking to find a place in.

And now, which brings my question to Philip, what made you decide to sign up for that app knowing that this app actually puts the woman making the first move?

Because I would imagine, as a guy, wouldn't that make you feel vulnerable?

Because really, the first step, she's got all the power. So why this app?

I actually prefer it that way.

I joined it for pretty much the same reason that she did. I know it had

a pretty decent reputation among dating apps. And,

you know, I joined it because I was ready to meet someone, and I felt like I probably wouldn't meet someone

in another setting. And again, I feel like it's been destigmatized, and I don't feel embarrassed or ashamed about it.
So that's why I joined. Rachel, what do you imagine people are thinking

if you say to them, we met on a dating app? Yeah, I imagine that they think, well, why couldn't you just find someone a normal way?

Or what's wrong with you? Why did you have to go to online dating? Or

maybe if I was someone in my... potential church community, I'd think, well, online dating is only for people who

have loose morals or something. I don't know.
I mean, I think you do know, right? I mean, you're imagining something in particular. Is that what you're thinking that people are thinking about you?

Yeah, in some ways. Philip, I'm going over the case right now.
I'm trying to see all the evidence. Exhibit A.

Philip, can you provide me with exhibit A?

Thank you. Can you describe what we're looking at here?

It's really just merely a screenshot of a article from Pew Research Center from a couple years ago and they did some studies on online dating and how people feel about it.

I think I think it was like 59% of adults in America said online dating is a good way to meet people

and that was a couple years ago so I feel like that number has even risen in the last couple years probably.

Also I think it said about half of America has known someone who used online dating or had found success in that way. So I feel like that illustrates that there's really nothing to be embarrassed or

ashamed of just for using online dating. Philip, it does say that 23% of Americans, which is about one in four,

think that people who use online dating sites are desperate. How would you feel about taking a one in four chance when you're talking to somebody that they will think that you are desperate or were?

I feel that those are probably people who we wouldn't be great friends with anyway.

So

I would just kind of disregard their opinion. Hopefully they wouldn't vocalize that opinion to us because that would just be rude, I feel.
Rachel, has Philip shown you this study?

I mean, you know, given these facts that he submitted, where 60%, almost 60% of people think that online dating is a good way to meet people. What do you think about that? Yeah, I have seen it.

And I've also heard that the church generally is about 20 years behind whatever is going on in regular culture, in like our modern culture.

So if I had statistics of what online dating stigma was 20 years ago, then that's what I would want to go by for my job. Do the two of you live in an urban area, a suburban area, a rural area?

I would call it a small city. In the center of the United States on a coast? Oh, oh, oh, yeah, sorry.
Yeah, we live in Texas. Okay.

Crisela, Chrislla, you know something about small cities here in Texas. Yes, yes.
I know many things about small cities in Texas, like football is the law.

If you said that you guys met at a high school or college football game, everybody would just pick you up on their shoulders and just say, yes, these were meant to be soulmates.

They would say, fourth down, one yard to go, touch down, all those other football words that I know. As I understand it, and I don't have a chart for this,

but my understanding from our producer, Jen, is the top dating app in Texas is Queso.

So I know, Philip, you submitted that wonderful piece of evidence, and Rachel, I know that you submitted your own piece of evidence as well. Can you please explain what this is? Oh, yeah.

The first one is a picture of our dog, or my dog, Marshall. And he's just listening to the John Hodgman podcast on our road trip from Tennessee to Texas.

So that's that one. He's also wearing a dog seat belt.
Yes, he is. And he looks very perturbed that he's in the car.

I got to tell you, Judge Alonso,

I'm looking at this picture. Yes.
And I'm hearing this was on a road trip where they were all listening to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Yes.
And I'm smelling pandering.

Here's the thing.

Joke is on Rachel. Because sure, Judge John Hodgman would have been impressed by this.
It's his podcast.

What she didn't know was that she was going to come on a guest judge episode, and you and I both hate the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Oh, despise it.
I'm here just to infiltrate from the inside.

So this is a reverse evidence. This is like we're playing Uno, and we're just like, reverse the direction.
There we go.

So you've also submitted here what looks like a text conversation. Can you tell me what we're looking at here, Rachel? So these are the very first messages sent between me and Philip.

And

just to summarize, it was very strange, and I'm not sure how we got past these first few messages back and forth. I'm not going to ask you to summarize, Rachel.

Do the two of you have this evidence in front of you? Yes. I'm going to ask the two of you to reenact this conversation in the audio media.

Starting with the 15th of July 2017, I'm going to guess, Rachel, this is you, with the killer opening line, hi Philip, how are you?

Okay.

Hi Philip, how are you? Hey Rachel, I'm doing well, thanks. What's the story behind the lion taming?

I just went to Zambia and we went on a safari and walked with lions. Also saw Victoria Falls.
That's really cool. Seems like an out-of-body experience.

Not sure I could handle that having seen planet Earth. I haven't seen that.
Yeah, I'd say it was morally questionable. We realized after we left that the Lions were probably heavily sedated.

I wouldn't do it again. Ah, gotcha.
Planet E is kind of brutal, but does a good job explaining importance of life cycles. Really fascinating.

I mean, it was a little awkward before that, but when you pulled the number one cool guy move, which is referring to Planet Earth as Planet E.

I i know it's like planet e and i go way back we we played we played ball together in high school the next message is just please come over

i just love

i love that you're opening it like your oh your first conversation your first exchange mentioned sedating lions

I mean, you thought it was a good idea.

Like, if Philip was like, yes, I agree, and let's build on this. I love that.
Rachel, I noticed you're laughing.

Philip, I've noticed a moment of silence from your side. And you have been the one that says, oh, I don't care.
I tell people all the time how we met and blah, blah, blah.

Yet, when we made you reenact our community theater version of your first conversation on this app, you are silent.

I just wanted to note that because it's interesting that Rachel, who is somewhat apprehensive of telling your story, actually really went along with it pretty easily and laughed at it.

So, but Rachel, now that that we've actually reenacted the whole thing and it's out in the ether, it has gone down in history, you have relived your first moments here in the podcast world, which let me tell you is forever eternal.

Are you at least embarrassed a little bit or anything? Or was it actually kind of

a relief for you to do it?

It was funny. I just, I don't know how we made it past these first few messages, honestly,

looking back at them. And it makes me think, maybe I was a little desperate, but I'm so glad that we went on a date because I really like him now.

But I'm not sure how we made it out of this. Since you've been together, had you actually had moments where you went back to look at the first exchange?

Or is this one of the first times with this issue coming up?

Is this the first time that you actually went back to do your research and bring it up and look, you know, and think, oh my, what was I thinking?

I think I screenshotted some of our messages before we both deleted the app and just now looked back at this. That is sentimental.
I love it.

See, that, that is the first page of the photo album. You know, it's just talking about safaris and lions being sedated and everything.

Planet E makes an appearance, like all tote school, as the kids say.

Philip, what is your reaction to having done this now and actually seeing Rachel's reaction? I mean, she's actually, she's really embracing it. She's embracing this reenactment.
How about you?

How do you feel about having to actually verbally say what you wrote when you first met?

Well,

it's a little embarrassing, I must admit.

I don't know. I think I was just trying to start a conversation and she had a photo, obviously.

that included a lion.

Oh, I thought you were just guessing.

I thought you were just guessing. Hey, girl, how do you feel about lions? That's your standard opening line.

I wonder why that didn't work outside of the app world. But why is it embarrassing? Because, you know, it's funny.

We actually already discussed how you guys met and how, you know, telling everybody that you met through the app isn't embarrassing for you.

But actually, like, reenacting this and kind of going back into the history, you find that you were embarrassed. Why?

I guess just saying it out loud sounds a little...

dumb or obviously this is not if I were to meet someone in a social situation we would probably exchange more general pleasantries and not,

you know, talk about the most brutal parts of planet Earth. But

regardless,

you know, I'm obviously glad that it worked out. And I don't think we've ever been in a conversation, both of us, when someone has asked a follow-up question like, what did you first talk about?

when you were in the app and that would probably be a little embarrassing for me. Look, you're working with what you have, so this is great.
I mean, this is actually really interesting.

And I actually, thank you, Rachel. This is actually a really cool piece of evidence.
And I'll say cool why? Because I'm surprised that you're the one that submitted it.

Because I think it actually goes against a lot of what we've been talking about. Rachel, are you worried about a judgment that's happening in the other person's head?

Or are you embarrassed for yourself? Are you worried about consequences, actual consequences in your career or whatever?

Or are you worried because it is uncomfortable for you to say out loud that you were in this position? There may be some of both. I think both things are real.

It makes me sad to think that we may have never met without the help of like this technology. We actually live on the same street, but like about a mile apart from each other.

And we've lived in the same city for years and it's not that big. So it makes me sad that I would have never maybe met him without a dating app.

Do you ever like look up at the sky at night and think, whoa, there's a lot of stars? You can't see the very many here.

Okay, well, here's a question. And we'll start with Philip because I think I've asked Rachel a lot of questions.
So, Philip, how would you like me to rule if I rule in your favor?

What would you expect?

I would hope that you would rule that we

maintain the status quo of just being honest

of

how we met. We don't have to delve into details

like necessarily our first conversation or

what we did on our first date or second date or anything like that. I just think it's important that we generally be honest.
with people. And if that person doesn't like it, then

I don't think that's really our problem to deal with. So basically, just honesty.
You're the person that thinks if someone says no to my journey, then they don't belong in my journey.

That's a good journey analogy. I know.
It's literally journey. Like, you know, like, I guess what I'm saying, an even better journey analogy is don't stop believing.
Yeah. Right?

I mean, that's what we're all about. Rachel, same thing.

You and I have gotten to know each other, and now I feel like you're like my sister. And I want to know, what would you like me to rule if I ruled in your favor? What would you expect?

So I've thought about a lot about this. And I think I would want,

I don't want to say permission, but that we could agree that in more professional situations, that I would be able to say something a little bit different, like we went to the same school

or we had a mutual friend in those professional situations and interviews, only because I think in churches, there may call upon him at some point to be a part of the church, and it's really important to them that

their relationship with him be built on a foundation of lies?

That's religion.

Just that whenever you work in a church or something, you're kind of almost like this figurehead. And unfortunately, he has to be part of my job in ways that I don't have to be a part of his job.

And then in more personal situations or like just friend situations, maybe we can just work together, create a way to more romanticize our meeting story that's not just, hey, we met on this app.

So maybe you could say we met on an app and there was one of those big wine bottles with a candle stuck into it where all the wax is dripping down the side.

Something, yeah.

Yes, you know, a scene from an animated film, you know, exactly. Well, Philip and Rachel, I think I've heard everything I need to make a decision.
I,

the cool substitute judge of the judge world,

I will go into my substitute chambers now, and I will be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as cool substitute judge Christelle Alonso retires to her chambers, probably to smoke cigarettes or something.

Rachel, I have one unanswered question that is burning me up inside.

I presume given that you use the word minister, that this is some sort of Christian faith that you've studied. Is that true? Yes.

What does the Bible have to say about lying to other religious leaders?

Probably

not great things.

Does the Bible have anything to say about apps?

No. I mean, there's a little bit about shellfish in there, I know, but

that might be more of an intermezzo. There's some gray area.

Philip, how do you feel about your chances in the case? I feel pretty good. I feel I presented my case pretty well.
I hope my statistical evidence will play a role in the verdict.

And yeah, I feel okay. How do you think your chances are improved or damaged by the fact that we have cool substitute Judge Cristello Alonso here?

I don't know.

It might be helpful.

Rachel, how do you feel about your chances in the case? I'm feeling pretty confident that I'll gain some ground here. You'll gain some ground? How much ground are we talking about?

I think Christelle will help us come up with some kind of compromise that will help us get through this situation. Not straight-up lies, but more like misleading, maybe.
Sure.

We'll be back in just a second with Judge Cristella Alonso's decision on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello. Hello, I'm calling on behalf of the Beef and Dairy Network podcast.
Oh, no, I'm sorry. No sales calls.
Goodbye.

It's a multi-award-winning podcast featuring guests such as Ted Danson, Nick Offerman, Josie Long.

I don't know what a Josie Long is, and anyway, I'm about to take my mother into town to see Phantom of the Opera at last. You are wasting my time, and even worse, my mother's time.

She only has so much time left. She's 98 years old.
She's only expected to live for another 20 or 30 years. Mother, get your shoes on.
Yes, the orthopaedic ones.

I don't want to have to carry you home again, do I? Right, well, if you were looking for a podcast. Mother, you're not wearing that, are you? It's very revealing, Mother.

This is musical theater, not a Parisian bordello. Simply go to maximum fun.org.
I'm reaching for my Samsung Galaxy 4 as we speak. Mother! Mother, not that hat!

Please rise as cool substitute judge Cristella Alonso re-enters the courtroom and presents her verdict.

Now, I've thought about this a lot, and I think both of you actually bring in great points. Might I say fantastic points? And I I think that there's actually a way to,

for the lack of a better word, marry both ideas. Like I said previously, I have never tried a dating app, so this is all new ground, and you have given me a lot to think about.

Now, before I give you my verdict, I'm going to give you an analogy that I think is actually pretty appropriate for this. Now, let's say that both of you win the lottery.

And with that money from the lottery, you get to buy a big mansion. And next to the mansion, you live to an A-list celebrity that has an equally luxurious mansion.

Let's say Tom Cruise. Well, let's say Tom Cruise, because you know.
If people don't know who Tom Cruise is, he's the star of the universally known 1985 fantasy film legend.

We all know it. You didn't even have to say it because I think we all agreed without you mentioning it, but thank you.

Now, let's say that you live next to Tom Cruise and you have an equally luxurious mansion.

When people asked you how you got this mansion, would you be apprehensive in telling them that you won the lottery?

Even though Tom Cruise, A-list celebrity, has worked decades, starred in many hit movies in Hollywood to get that mansion while you guys just bought a ticket and you got lucky and you got the mansion.

I believe that it doesn't really matter how you got the mansion because you have the same house. The backstory doesn't matter.
All you know is that what matters is the present.

And the present is, is that you and Tom Cruise have the same mansion.

Having said that, Philip, I think that your openness about the app, I think it goes exactly with the thinking that Rachel would have coming from such a religious background, you know, where it's like in your perspective, it's about honesty.

It's about being open, which, you know, ideally, I think that having grown up in a religious household myself, I was taught that that's what religion was about, having the faith, being open.

So it's strange to me that your reaction, your opinion really aligns with her world.

But Rachel, at the same time, having grown up in a devout religious background, you know, household, I completely understand what you're saying. Because, you know, one thing that struck me earlier

in the case was when you were talking about how church is usually an average of 20 years behind. Now, you and I are obviously not the same religion because my religion is about 2,000 years behind.

So you guys are very progressive in your faith. Having said that, I understand.
You know, I, like I said previously, I'm from Texas. I'm from South Texas.

I'm from a little town that is actually dominated by the Catholic Church. So I understand how you have to live a life under certain guidelines, some unspoken rules.

And even, you know, Bailiff Jesse had asked about these questions about religion and asking about what's in the holy book.

we have to understand that a lot of things that we understand to be true are just opinions that have been handed down. There is no evidence to support it or to not support it.

So this is what I think you guys should do. First of all, I want both of you to realize that

you are both the first ones that found each other on this app. And you have been together for a year.
That itself dispels most of the notions that I think, Rachel,

around you, you might think that they have because you've already broken that. You've already shown that that's not true.

You have been together for a year, and that's highly commendable because in a year, it surpasses an app. It surpasses the internet.

The internet served as the meeting ground. But what you've built in the past year, that's you and Philip as people getting to know each other.
And so I think that's great.

Philip, I love how you constantly say that the people that don't get it just don't get it.

And that actually shows that you are so supportive of Rachel and that you understand her, but yet you still want that openness. So here's what I'm suggesting.

I suggest that because you've been together for a year, you don't tell people how you met because you've already have a relationship. You can let it come out.

later on, but for first impressions, I think that it's actually important that you guys just show each other and show other people, friends and family, how you feel about each other.

Because really, I'll tell you from personal experience, I was in a long-term relationship and we were together for over 10 years.

And I'll tell you, when people met us, they never asked us how we met because we were just obviously so close to each other and we cared about each other so much and we loved each other so much that no one ever questioned it.

So I think that we put too much pressure in giving that ideal story of how we all met. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.

You know, and actually, I'll tell you that I have a circle of friends that have all gotten married from dating apps.

And at first, I was actually, I think, more along the circle of, you know, friends that you have, Rachel, in that because it was foreign to me, it just seemed like there's no way this could happen.

But I actually saw a relationship unfold before my eyes. They met on that same app.
and they just got married about a month ago. And that just goes to show you that that's what life is now.

And think about it, Rachel, you said it yourself. You live on the same street, a mile away from each other, in a small city.

The chances that you guys never met in that close proximity, that's insane to me, but that's life. You know, the fact that you can have the soulmate,

your perfect match, live down the street. across the world, that's amazing.
That's incredible. And I think that that's something that we have to give credit to the internet and dating apps.

So for me, I actually like the first conversation. When you guys reenacted it and talked about the lions and everything, I loved that because it's specific.
It's a great story to tell.

You don't have to tell everybody off the bat that you met on an app, but you can tell them, we had a great conversation about lions.

And that, I think, is more important. I think that that's how you guys

can find a bridge between both of you.

And honestly, Rachel, I think that the more you focus on this and actually focus on showing friends how connected you guys are and how you feel about each other, that'll slowly make you more comfortable in maybe revealing more as it comes up.

Because let's face it, it doesn't matter how you met.

What matters is that you met.

This is the sound of my inflatable cool gavel.

Cool, Judge Cristella Alonso rules. That is all.

Judge Alonso.

Your idea of a cool gavel is one that's inflatable.

You're out of order, Balaam Jesse Norn. Oh,

how could I be out of order when I have this cool inflatable banana? Oh, that's the only thing that's cooler than my inflatable gavel.

Please rise as cool Judge Christelle Alonso leaves the courtroom. Rachel, how do you feel about this ruling? I feel great.

I feel like I was definitely heard by the judge, and I'm feeling really good about the ruling. Philip, how do you feel? I feel the same way.
I think it's a great

point that it's more important that we did meet and not how we met. So I appreciate the ruling a lot.
Plus, it gives you a chance to talk more about Planet E.

Yes. Rachel Phillip, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books. Before we get to Swift Justice, we want to thank Anne Mandola Jones for naming this week's episode, Swipe Right to Remain Silent.

If you'd like to name a future Judge John Hodgman episode, like us on Facebook. That's where we regularly put out calls for submissions.

You should hashtag your tweets about Judge John Hodgman, hashtag JJ H O and chat with us on the MaxFun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com. Christelle Alonso, you are a brilliant stand-up comic.

You have a hilarious special on the Netflix streaming content service, which is called Lower Classy, that I recommend to all of our listeners. Christelle is a real genius of stand-up comedy.

And you're one of the stars of Bubble. Bubble, yes.
This week's episode, recorded by Will Burney at KWBUFM in Waco, Texas. Our producer is the ever-capable and today be necker chiff, Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment. Are you ready for this, Cool Judge, Cristella? Let's bring it on, man, in a cool way.

Barrett says, let me inflate this question.

Barrett says, my fellow Thespian has a scripted line that uses the word aroma.

But he inserts the word smell in its place. I think if the author wanted the character to say smell, he would have written it that way.
Are lines in a play open to actor interpretation?

Christella, have you ever acted on stage?

For years.

Yes.

You were a theater actress? Yes, and I actually have a quick story about this. Because I know you're in Cars 3.

I know you're in the sitcom, Cristella. I know you're in other things.

The et cetera part is where you get them.

No, actually, you know, this is a story, a really quick story. In my freshman year in high school,

we were all predominantly Mexican-American students. So we did a Mexican-American version of the diary of Anne Frank.
And my teacher tried to bend it to make it more, you know, Mexican-American.

And I told him. Was your teacher Mexican-American? Yes.
Okay. Yes.
And it seems like you could get into trouble real quick. Yes.
But, you know, I told him, you can't do that.

It's based on the diary of Anne Frank. You can't change history about one of the biggest events to happen in this lifetime, you know? So I told him no.
And I feel that, look,

any big play like The Crucible, it was written a long time ago. It's not your job to come in and say, you know what, this needs no.
Just interpret it as is.

Bring your own flavor in the acting, but the words, leave them alone, especially in a play. That is historical record.
So that's my thing. I feel like

it's very different on stage and on camera. I mean, there are people who on camera are very serious about the script.
Sometimes there might be a time constraint or something.

But at the very least, at least when I've acted on camera once on Comedy Bang Bang, there was a little bit of...

I know.

Yeah, that's right.

I've noticed that while fealty to the script is very important in stage acting, in on-camera acting, often the script can be a starting place and a kind of a safety. Yes.

But that's because you can edit on film, right? Like you can do a couple different takes and see which one works best. Absolutely.

I was a writer on my show, and anytime that the actors didn't feel comfortable with a word, I would actually let them change it because that's them. They're actually creating this character.

You know, in theater, the world has already been set up. They're building their own life on screen and they get a say.
That's what I believe.

But in theater, I mean, can you imagine Romeo and Juliet and someone just say,

you know, I think this is what they meant. Like, no, it's part of history.
Yeah.

Can I suggest just like an alternate ruling if they want to do it in addition to your ruling? Yes. Judge Alonso.

I was just thinking, like, if you take a word out of the script in one place, you got to put it back in somewhere else. It's got to be net neutral.
And there's no like offsets you can buy.

So when you take aroma out, you got to put aroma in somewhere else. Like, hey, what's up, Aroma?

Or whatever. Oh, that sounds, I want that to be my middle name, is the cool judge, Cristella Aroma Alonso.

That's done. Oh, he's sweet.
That's it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at maximumfund.org/slash JJ H.O.
or email hodgman at maximumfund.org. No case is too small.

Our thanks to superstar, super cool guest judge Cristella Alonso.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture.
Artist-owned. Listener-supported.