Across State Felines

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, across state felines, Adrian brings the case against her boyfriend David.

They're both going to be attending graduate school in different states and can't agree on how to handle custody of their two cats.

Adrian says it's more practical for David to take care of them.

David thinks Adrian will miss them too much.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

I fear the man who drinks water and so remembers this morning what the rest of us said last night.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he hasn't had a sip of water in over over 22 years, preferring instead to drink gin?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman?

Adrian and David, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name not the cultural reference, in fact, the direct quote from culture that I said as I entered the courtroom.

David, we'll start with you.

I'm going to guess the Japanese new wave horror film Jigoku.

Jigoku.

I know how to spell it.

J-I-G-O-K-U?

That is correct.

Fantastic.

I'll let the listener in on a little secret.

The first time we recorded this, there was a problem with my mic.

I've fixed it now, but David was very kind and spelled Jigoku for me and then explained what this Japanese New Wave horror movie is all about.

What is it about?

It's about hell, and there's a scene where a bunch of very bad people toast to each other and drink some poisoned alcohol and die and spend the rest of the movie in Japanese hell.

I've engraved that now in the Peter Guest book.

It's a good guess, I have to say, David, because there is obviously a drinking/slash toast theme to the quote.

Did you just have that in your back pocket?

You had Jugoku in the chamber there?

No, I didn't.

But it was the first thing that occurred to me.

Oh, okay.

I love a guy who thinks of deep cuts first.

Adrian,

it is now your turn to guess.

You may not guess Jigoku.

the Japanese new wave horror film that we are all fans of.

What is your guess?

It sounds kind of like something Ernest Hemingway might say.

So I'm just going to say the only Ernest Hemingway book I've read, which is The Sun Also Rises.

Well, you don't even have to say the name of the title.

I'm only looking for the person who is being quoted.

So we'll say Ernest Hemingway.

And is that your final answer?

Good.

All guesses are wrong.

Didn't want to wait for that one.

Because if you thought about it for even a further second, either one of you might have come to the conclusion that the speaker was Benjamin Franklin, famous American aphorist and electrician,

specifically a Benjamin Franklin quote that is engraved itself upon pewter on a tankard that is for sale for $83 in the online gift shop for Colonial Williamsburg.

where I believe you both work.

Is that correct?

That is true.

Yes.

So, A, I am so delighted to have you both here because I have many questions for you.

And B, you should be very ashamed of yourselves that you don't know your inventory as well as you should.

Pewter beer tankered with Ben Franklin quote, $83.

And you may have your own custom engraving as well if you wish, hand engraving or machine engraving.

It's up to you.

This has been Buzz Marketing for Colonial Williamsburg.

But this is not what your case is all about.

Your case is about custody over some cats.

I I was going to read a quote from the famous sad child custody movie, Kramer vs.

Kramer.

Too depressing.

Last minute, found the Benjamin Franklin quote.

Feel better about it.

You guys currently cohabitate.

Is that correct, Adrian?

Yes.

And you are not married?

That is correct.

All right, that's fine.

I'm fine with it.

But you do have two cats.

And in fact, you are going to decohabitate.

And the question is, who is going to keep the cats?

Do I understand this dispute correctly, Adrian?

Yes.

I mean, for the period of time that you are non-this is not a permanent decohabitation, you're not breaking up.

Do I understand that correctly?

Yes, it's just for the next two years.

Okay, now, Adrian, you bring the case.

What is the situation?

Why are you guys

splitting up your household?

Well,

so David is moving down to Georgia, and I am going up to New Haven.

And so the cats that we have,

we adopted them together as not siblings, but they're best friends.

And so,

well, we need to keep them together.

And so we have to decide which of us is going to take them both.

And I think that David should take them.

Now, I do not know if there are any

sort of weird, Westworldy historical reenactment parks like Colonial Williamsburg in Georgia.

I do know in New Haven, they have an old-timey university world called Yale.

But if you're not leaving Colonial Williamsburg to go be robots in another pretend old-timey park, why are you guys leaving your colonial home, Adrian?

We are both going to graduate school.

So I'm going to the aforementioned weird old-timey college in New Haven, and David is going to the University of Georgia.

I'm doing a master's program, so it'll just be two years, and David is going to do a PhD, so he'll be there for longer, And so I'm going to move down to Georgia when I'm finished with my program.

And I applaud you both for furthering your education and getting secondary degrees.

Given that you both work in Colonial Williamsburg, may I presume that one of you is getting a master's degree in blacksmithing and the other is getting a PhD in town crying?

It would be a fair guess, but I am getting my master's degree in early music, and David is going for his PhD in history.

Fantastic.

All right.

Well, congratulations to you both.

You're going to be apart for two years studying your obsession with the past, your mutual obsession with the past.

Before we talk about your delightful cats and look at pictures of them and make Jesse respond to that,

what?

I presume that there are pictures of the cats in the evidence.

Yes, I see.

All right, I'm already seeing them.

Okay, Jesse, you're going to have a good time.

Oh, there's one that's worth.

Oh, my goodness.

Okay.

At this point, I'm basically one of those salivating rats or whatever it was.

Like, you just think you can ring a bell and all start being delighted by an animal.

All right, let's put it to the test.

Jesse, will you please scroll down to the evidence submitted by Adrian?

What are the names of these cats?

The mostly white one who has become known in the past few years.

Hang on, Adrian.

Let's let the bailiff get this out of the system.

Is it gonna

The cat put his head in the glass.

It's the kind of glass with a bump three-quarters of the way up, you know.

And so it looks like a funny space cat.

And I think that glass is going to get stuck on the head.

And then it's going to walk around with a glass on its head like, ooh, I'm a cat.

I want the listeners to know that Jesse is still on the first of several photos that have been submitted by Adrian into evidence.

And these photos, of course, are available at the JudgeJohn Hodgman page at maximumfund.org and on our Instagram at Instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

This one, the cat, is looking very fat.

Yeah.

Oh, trash cat.

Trash cat.

There's a trash cat picture.

It's a cat in the trash.

Don't put your cat in the trash.

You can put it in the cat house.

Okay.

So there you go.

The Pavlovian experiment worked again.

Jesse did drool when I rang the bell to all of our delights.

Can we address that in all of these pictures, Adrian and David are wearing colonial garb?

Except for this one where David is wearing, it looks like a colonial ruff and coat and shirt.

Yes.

And then maybe blue jeans.

Yes.

Yeah, there's a little bit of denim in his colonial Williamsburg garb, it looks like to me.

But yes, Jesse, you have revealed

this is the big third act reveal of the evidence section is that not only do we have a number of incredibly cute cats, that number being two specifically, but also two incredibly cute owners wearing their colonial Williamsburg garb in the evidence submitted to this courtroom.

I don't know if it's possible to judge between these two.

May I judge them both winners?

Because it's incredible.

It's incredible what you guys have brought to us today.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Now, I have some questions about these photos that will guide our discussion further.

First of all, there is a photo of a very curious cat that is

white with tabby highlights.

This cat is named Claudio.

Claudio, and

Claudio identifies as a he.

Yes.

And he is putting his head into a water glass to drink some water, and it does look a little perilous.

Claudio likes to get into things because the next photo is Claudio inside a kitty condo,

a berugged kitty condo.

And then there's also this photo of Claudio inside the trash can, which is a delight.

And there's also a photo of Claudio just hanging out on a wall-to-wall carpet with his mouth just hanging open like a big old dum-dum.

I love that one.

Can we let the record reflect that as a dog person,

I

don't respond in a ridiculous manner to pictures of cats doing normal cat things.

I have a higher standard that requires them to be in a funny thing.

or to be trying to do a funny thing.

Right.

Dogs are cute, but cats are proud.

And the best part is a photo of a cat that has gotten itself into a garbage can and is looking up and it's like, I know, this is humiliating to me.

What is the name of this delightfully fat black cat with tuxedo highlights?

That is Callisto.

She is a female cat.

Callisto or Callista?

Callisto.

Callisto Flockhart?

The famous wife of Harrisina Ford?

That's right.

Claudio and Callisto, they do seem to be a delight.

They do seem to be best friends.

By the way, all over the country, people are driving their cars, listening to this podcast, going, do you remember when the Judge John Hodgman podcast heard disputes between people instead of just looking at pets and laughing?

Like, what happened to that podcast?

It's just about people laughing at cats now.

It's like, yeah, well, you know, Hodgman got toxoplasmosis about a year ago, and it's all he does.

He does a podcast where he narrates pictures of animals.

Probably, you know what?

It would be very successful, Jesse.

We should think about doing that as a spin-off.

The Meow Boys.

All right, so

these two, you adopted them together or separately?

Together.

And you guys are how old?

We're both 24.

All right.

Oh, wow.

You're young people.

How long have you guys been living together in old-timey Williamsburg, Virginia?

Coming up on two years.

Oh, wow.

And now it is time to part.

And the question before this court is,

who shall take the cats with them?

And if I've read this brief correctly, you're both trying to pawn these two delightful cats off on the other.

Is that correct, David?

Yes, that is correct.

I wouldn't put it like that, but yes.

David, why don't you love these cats?

And why don't you want to live with them?

Are they shedding all over your frock coat?

Well, yes, but that's not the reason why I

want Adrian to take them.

So I love these cats very, very much.

But we did get them in part because Adrian needed to have cats in her life, which is a desire that I very much respect and support.

And

when we are apart, we're going to do our best to see each other as much as possible.

But because of Adrian's schedule with rehearsals and performances and all of that stuff, I'm going to be the one visiting her for the most part, which means that if I give up the cats, I'm still going to see them all the time.

If she gives up, well, not all the time, but semi-frequently.

Right.

If she gives up the cats and I take them, then for two years, a tenth of their life, assuming that they're going to live at least to 20, she's not going to see them.

And I think that she would be very sad to part with them.

I think she is in some ways in denial about how sad she'd be to be without the cats.

And so I think she should take them for the next two years and then bring them down so that we can all be together in Georgia.

And that is the end game of your master's in PhD programs, correct?

You'll end up in Georgia together while you finish your PhD in history.

Yes.

And what area of history are you studying, a Japanese New Wave horror cinema or what?

I'm going to be studying 19th century American history.

and southern history.

I can go into more detail on that, but that's what it is, Broadway.

I have every confidence you could go into more detail, but we will save that for the nonce.

It's a little old-timey talk that I just dropped in there, Jesse, to make David delighted.

Set him at ease.

Thank you.

I'm thanking you on behalf of David.

Well, actually, I would prefer that you say thank you.

By the way, I am wearing my powdered wig and my

breeches.

We'll say that.

Okay, David,

are you being totally honest with this court?

Or is it that you just don't want to clean out this litter box anymore and you want to go down to Georgia and study up your

wild 18th century American history while the cats are away,

David will play?

Be honest.

I am being honest, Your Honor, and I think you can ask Adrian and she will confirm that I delight.

Oh, I will ask Adrian, sir.

Sorry, I just needed to

establish my my dominance in this courtroom.

If I ask Adrian, she'll say the same.

Yes.

All right.

Watch this.

Stand by.

Adrian?

Yes.

I'm asking you now.

Does David want you to take these cats because he's a lazy cat-taker careover?

No.

He loves the cats very much.

And

in fact, I think that he himself may be underestimating how much he would miss them.

That is not my main.

So is that the main reason you don't want these cats either?

You think he's going to miss them too much?

No,

that's supplemental.

All right.

What's your main reason for not wanting these cats around while you go to Yale University to study early music and play your plink plunk music on your string bow or whatever it is?

What's an old-timey instrument, Jesse?

Glass harp?

Yeah, glass harp.

That sounds really good.

Yeah, are you going to learn to play a glass harp or a glass harmonica as invented by Benjamin Franklin?

It's a bunch of little wine glasses full of different levels of water, and they go, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo.

Is that what you're going to do?

No, I think I missed my opportunity in doing that while I was at Colonial Williamsburg.

Oh, you got a glass harmonica down there?

Yeah, there's a visiting artist.

There's no in-house glass harmonica player, but there is a guy who comes in and frequently performs on this instrument.

Is that a historically accurate instrument?

Did Benjamin Franklin really invent that thing?

Yes, he did.

And there was another gentleman in town named Robert Carter.

He also owned one of these.

So it was quite the rage for a very short period of time.

Well, no, I still

see some street musicians playing them from time to time.

They're really cool.

And if you haven't seen one, go look up.

Would you call it a glass harp or a glass harmonica?

Glass harmonica.

And I've seen it without the H in harmonica too, so just harmonica.

All right.

Go have some fun with your autocorrect and try to put Glass Armonica into your Google and see what comes up.

Judge Hodgman, would you agree that in a way Benjamin Franklin is the creator of the Judge John Hodgman podcast in that he was the man who established the

American tradition of coming up with your own weird system that is better than the system that everyone else around you has agreed upon?

He is the very model of monstrous male exceptionalism.

It's true.

Let's take a quick break to hear about one of the other awesome shows here at Maximum Fun.

We'll be back in just a second on Judge John Hodgman.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me me ask you a question.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Court is back in session.

Let's get back into the courtroom.

Adrienne,

you've alluded to the fact that you think David will miss these cats, but that's not the main reason you don't want them.

Yes.

What is the main reason you don't want your delightful cats, Claudio and Callisto?

So it's mainly a practical thing.

First of all,

David is going to be able to afford...

a bigger place for a lot less money than I will in New Haven.

And And that's the place that we're going to both end up in eventually.

So it'll be big enough for all of us.

The cats are kind of a handful, which is something that I wanted to illustrate in the evidence that I sent in.

So

they kind of need a lot of space.

Oh, you legit don't want these cats around while you're taking your master's degree in New Haven.

Why?

Because cats are terrible apartment dwellers and they usually require a separate room to theirselves?

Well, not

I guess, well.

Neither of those things are true, obviously.

They're amazing apartment animals, and also they can't speak English, so they can't make any demands.

Well, they can't speak English, but they can meow very loudly.

Especially Claudio.

He's deaf, so he is extra loud and extra talkative and extra rambunctious.

So I just don't see them doing very well in a small studio apartment,

which I think would be all that I could afford on my own.

Yeah, do you have a place picked out already?

No, I was waiting for this decision to be made for me before I start doing some more in-depth searching.

But I already see that it's going to be more expensive than it will be for David.

As someone who has lived in New Haven, admittedly, in the colonial period myself, because it was a long time ago,

with a cat, I can tell you that it can be done, with more than one cat, in fact.

Can be done.

Just going to say that.

But you don't want them around because you think they're going to take up a lot of your time and attention.

And Claudio, in particular, is going to be loud and meowing it up while you're trying to play your bass viol or whatever you're going to do.

What ancient music are you interested in studying?

What's your life going to be like there in New Haven?

So I'm a singer, and I'm particularly interested in early music.

So I'm going to be a member of a small vocal group and

yeah, singing mostly.

Is that what you're going to be getting your professional training in at the School of Music at Yale or what?

Yes.

Early music voice.

Early music voice.

Yeah, well, let's hear something.

Adrian, I can't hear this case unless I know whether or not you actually have a future in the music of the the past.

Oh, geez.

Okay.

I'll give you a verse of

one of John Dowland, the famous lutinists, one of his more famous songs.

I wouldn't say he's the most famous lutinist, but go ahead.

Okay.

I got a few lutenists in mind, but go ahead.

All right.

Come again,

sweet love doth now

invite

thy graces that refrain

to do me due delight

to see,

to hear, to touch, to kiss, to dine

with thee again in sweetest simply.

Whoa, bravo.

That was amazing.

You'll be setting the small churches and and living rooms of the Northeast on fire in your career as an early music vocalist.

And arsonist.

Thank you.

It's a perfect cover for a dual career.

Adrian, that was truly amazing.

And thank you so much for sharing that with us.

I mean, my only regret is I didn't ask you to sing that song only using the words meow, meow, meow, for my own personal reasons.

But thank you very much.

David, can you sing?

Yes.

Oh, it's amazing how your voice changed, David.

I can sing, but nothing like that.

Because I'm about to saddle you with some cats you don't want, because Adrian just killed it.

Well,

Adrian and I occasionally at work

sing duets, usually from a book of two-part madrigals by an English composer named Thomas Morley, though she definitely carries the ensemble.

Second most famous madrigalist.

After Al Madrigal.

Yeah, Al Madrigal is really the famousest.

Yeah.

Showtime show about the comedy stores.

Okay, well, I would order you both now to sing a duet, but I think it would get so adorable that cars would be driving off the road and it would endanger everyone's lives.

So instead, I'm going to ask more questions about your work together and how you met.

First of all, David, tell us about, for those who may not know, what is colonial Williamsburg?

So Williamsburg in the colonial era, up through 1781, was the capital of the colony and early state of Virginia.

The capital moved west to Richmond in 1781, and the city sort of fell out of use, but a lot of buildings were very, very well preserved.

And so

in the 20s, thanks to a generous gift of blood money from John D.

Rockefeller Jr.,

a group of archaeologists, historians, and architects restored the city.

So now it's a restored colonial capital.

It sits on about a mile of land, several hundred acres.

People wear 18th-century clothing and give tours of houses, demonstrate 18th-century skills and material culture,

stage scenes from historical events, and things like that.

And occasionally fall in love.

Well, we were actually in love when we got there.

Adrienne and I met in college in Pittsburgh and actually both got jobs at Colonial Williamsburg at the same time when we were already in a relationship and already had been for a few years.

So we both moved down there together.

Were you always interested in history?

Was it your goal to move together to this replica of the past and just wear frock coats and sing madrigals together?

Well, I majored in history in my undergrad.

Adrian

started focusing on early music around the same time.

I was interested in working in museums, and when we realized that

there were musician jobs at Colonial Williamsburg that actually perfectly suited Adrian's skill set,

we decided to both apply in the hopes that we would both get jobs and both be able to move down there.

And so, what do you guys do at Colonial Williamsburg?

What is your job?

My job is I'm called a site interpreter, which means that I give tours of houses, historic sites,

things like that.

In costume and in character?

I am not in character, but I am in costume.

All right.

I only half approve.

Adrian, what's your gig?

I am a music interpreter, and

more specifically, I'm a member of the group known as the Governor's Music Ensemble.

We're sort of the resident Baroque Ensemble at Colonial Williamsburg.

And so we do a range of different

levels of formality of performance.

So we'll do one formal evening concert once a week.

And then throughout the rest of the week, I'll be sitting in a house practicing on the harpsichord, answering people's questions as they wander through a building.

When you're plunking on the harpsichord and people are asking you questions, when you answer them, do you talk in old-timey language?

Are you in character or no?

No, I'm not in character.

Is anyone in character down there?

Yes, there are character interpreters.

They portray specific people from history.

And there are what's known as the nation builders.

That's the

Thomas Jefferson, George Washington people.

Can you guys leave and get some of those weirdos on my podcast?

Because I wanted to talk to them.

They are very interesting and talented.

So I'm sorry that I'm not.

No, you guys are very interesting and talented as well.

And when is your last day there?

Well, my last day, appropriately enough, is the 4th of July.

Little on the nose, Adrian.

Yes.

All right, so we got to decide what's going to happen quite soon.

Will you do me this favor, though, Adrian?

I know that you don't play a particular character, and you're not even technically in character when you're doing your harpsichord, but at some point when before you quit, maybe on your last day, when someone asks you a question, no matter what the question is, just whisper in their ear, these violent delights will have violent ends.

I can

promise to think about it.

I'm ordering you to do it, unless you want some cats you don't want so much

that you claim to love.

All right.

Who takes care of the cats the most now?

I think it's pretty equal.

We both have certain things that we tend to do more of.

I do more of the feeding of the cats.

David

cleans out the litter boxes.

David also plays with the cats more than I do,

and I would say that I cuddle or attempt to cuddle with them more than he does.

So I would say it's a pretty even split of both

responsibilities and enjoyment of the cats.

Have you considered a kind of a split custody agreement where you feed the cats in New Haven in the morning and then drive them down to Georgia for them to poop in the evening?

I can honestly say we have not considered that.

Well, why not another kind of split custody arrangement, such as separating the cats or having the cats for a year in New Haven and

having the cats for a year in Georgia, and then you all are reunited after two years in Georgia.

Well, I'm all about

spending as little money as possible.

So if I'm going to get an apartment that I have to pay some kind of, well, either pay to get a larger apartment to house the cats or to have to pay some kind of pet fee.

I'm not going to do that if we're both going to have them at some point.

Okay, I got you.

And after all, you're only paid in copper pennies, after all.

Of course.

What kind of place are you going to have in Georgia?

Are you going to Atlanta, Georgia, David, or somewhere else in Georgia?

I'm going to be living in Athens, Georgia.

And

Athens, Georgia is very cheap.

I'm currently looking at potentially living in a small townhouse for less than we currently pay now for our smallish apartment.

So

it is true that I'm going to have more space for a lot less money than Adrian is going to have.

Yeah, that sounds like a really good deal because that way the cats can probably have their own floor.

And some stairs to run up and down and stuff.

That all is true.

So where do you think, honestly, David, the cats would have a better quality of life?

That's a very piercing question.

I suppose

that I'd be forced to admit that they'd probably have a higher quality of life living with me for the next two years, in part because it would spare them several very lengthy moves.

They do not like being in the car.

They do not like being in their boxes.

So if they came down with me, they'd only have to do that once.

They would have more space.

But while I do prize the well-being of my cats and the happiness of my cats very much,

they also are animals, and Adrian and I are humans.

And

I believe that inconveniencing the cats in as much as

having to move them several times and maybe giving them a little less space for the next two years would be worth it for Adrian's quality of life and quality of frequent cat interactions.

You're saying that Adrian's quality of life and happiness is more important than the cat's emotions, and that she would suffer without the cats.

Is that so?

Yes.

But you have heard her argument.

She says she doesn't want these cats.

She doesn't want the cats because they're going to interfere with her historical music lifestyle in New Haven, Connecticut.

How do you answer that?

Well,

I believe that that in part she's in a little bit of denial.

When we go on vacation,

if we're a part of the break,

you think that she doesn't know her own emotions.

I'm not sure I'd go that far.

Yes, in this case,

not that she doesn't know, but that she knows and that she's buried that awareness under layers of practicality

and

concern about having to move the cats around and have them live in a small space for two years.

So, you see, Jesse, the dudes thinking that they know their spouses' minds better than their own spouses.

That goes back to at least the 18th century.

We know that now as a part of history.

I knew this was going to happen.

On this day, David does not get a check in his virtue box.

Adrian, how do you feel?

I mean, I want you to be honest.

Do you think you might be underestimating the emotional trauma of not being near Claudio and Callisto?

Maybe,

but I also think I could get over it.

I also think that

it's not that I think they will interfere with my activities, it's that I just think I won't be home as frequently as they would want me to be.

I might not even get to see them that much if they were living with me, except in the morning and when I get home at night.

I just, I mean, I don't know this for sure, but I think I'm going to have a very busy daytime schedule, whereas David, of course he will be busy, but I think a lot of his work

could be done at home.

He'll be, you know, grading papers and the cats can come and sit on the papers and enjoy that.

And in Athens, Georgia,

life is lived more slowly than in the hustled bustle of New Haven, Connecticut.

where you're going to be singing in your apartment and those cats are going to be meowing along with you and all your neighbors are going to be hitting the ceilings with brooms, saying quiet.

But none of that matters to me, Adrian.

I asked David a piercing question.

Thank you, David.

I appreciate that compliment.

Which was, where does he believe the cats will have a better quality of life?

Now I'm going to ask you a piercing question, and I order you to tell the truth.

Whom between you do these cats love more?

Well,

I really don't know.

They definitely allow me to get closer

to them, but I think that's also because of my cat parenting style.

I'm very much into picking them up, and David is not.

I think that they could grow to allow David to pick them up if he just tried to do it.

So I think it really depends on their mood.

If they're in a cuddly mood, they show more affection to me, but But I don't know.

You should see them playing with their bird and mouse toys with David.

That's that picture of Claudio with his mouth hanging open.

That is a cat panting, which I never knew cats could do, but David really gets him worked up.

And

I think they would miss out on that.

You never knew cats could do that.

Did you not grow up with cats?

I did, but I've

I guess I've never gotten a cat to leap through the air so well as David can.

It's a lot of words for a simple question.

It seems like you're evading the answer.

That's fine.

I have one more question to ask before I go into my own carpeted kitty condo, judge-size, that I call my chambers and make my decision.

Who has had cats longer in their lives?

David?

Or Adrian?

I think probably me.

Mm-hmm.

David, would you disagree with that?

No, I'd agree.

Did you have cats growing up?

I did, but not until my middle school years.

And I believe Adrian grew up with cats from very early on.

Adrian, have you ever had a time when you haven't had a cat in your life?

When I was away at college.

Okay.

Gotcha.

All right, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I will be back in a moment.

Do what the bailiff says while I'm gone.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Adrian, how are you feeling about your chances in the case?

I guess I still feel pretty good from a practical standpoint, but I don't know.

I never really know which way these are going to go.

David, how do you feel?

I feel fairly confident.

I feel like that last question might have tipped the scale slightly in my favor, but of course I'll have to wait and see.

David, will you please, in the interest of fairness, sing a public domain song for us?

The Old Gray Mare or.

Okay,

I'll sing a little bit of Down by the Sally Gardens, an ancient English folk song which had words written for it by Yeats in the early 19th century.

Oh, boy.

Down by

the Sally

Gardens,

my love

and I

did meet.

She passed the Sally

Gard.

All right, that's enough.

We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgkin podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back.

It goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and offers his verdict.

In a field bound by

the river,

my love and I

did stand,

and on my leaning

shoulder, she laid her snow-white hand.

She bid me take life easy as the grass grows.

Come on, David, grows on the wheels.

Here, I can help, guys.

She ain't what she used to be, ain't what she used to be, ain't what she used to be.

Oh, David.

Ooh, goosebumps on that one.

That's one of my favorite songs.

Well done.

Judge Hodgman, it's pronounced Jesse.

J-E-S-E, Jesse.

I do apologize.

Jesse, you sang my second favorite madrigal.

You know, I did not expect this when I was in my chambers hearing down by the Sally Gardens.

That one's been getting me since my old college days when I heard them whiff and poof sing it.

So you really, you really know how to manipulate a judge there, David.

But I'm trying to be impartial.

Here's this weird situation because what we have here are two truly adorable people in the care of two truly adorable cats.

And I am in the unenviable position of trying to decide which one of these people hates these cats more.

I do not believe any of this Tom foolery about, I think that he'll miss them more.

Oh, I think she'll miss them more.

Someone doesn't want these cats around.

And I feel it.

You know, I grew up with cats.

I rescued a cat in 1997 that lived until 2014, at which time, as I've discussed on the podcast before, Petey, the cat, began to fail and passed away, basically by my hand, because I brought poor Petey to a professional cat dispatcher at the veterinarian.

And after that, I had a long period where I was like, I do not, I mean, I loved my cats, the ones that I've had over the years, but I do not want a cat anymore.

And I had to come to terms with my own cat loathing because as wonderful as they are and as adorable as they are, whether they are panting, whether they are cuddling, whether they are in the garbage, whether they

have their heads in a glass.

Eventually, sometimes you just want that cat to be in the garbage.

Sorry, cats.

They take a lot out of you.

They have a lot of personality.

They have a lot of demands.

And what's more,

they poop in a box in your house, and you got to take care of that.

It's not a lot of fun.

And one does reach a certain area of cat fatigue.

And I need to take that into consideration when I am trying to tease out the truth behind your competing altruistic claims.

There's one of you that doesn't want these cats more, and indeed, one of you who deserves to be catless more for a period of time.

Second consideration: David believes that we are gifted by God with mastery over the beasts of the field.

And therefore, the emotional considerations of these cats should not be taken into account when determining where they should live.

Now, I don't disagree completely.

I believe in all human-animal partnerships, the human's needs have to come first because they're the ones dealing with all the feces.

I think a certain consideration has to be given to the human mind and the human needs before the animal's needs.

But your argument, David, does not exactly stack up because if you truly did not care about these cats, you would be considering separating them, for example, because there's one for each of you and spreading the pleasure and the pain of cat ownership in that way.

But you wouldn't do it because it would presumably break these cats' little hearts.

to be apart from each other.

They're going to go through a big change in their lives, and you want them to have a certain amount of continuity.

There is no question that these cats are going to be happier in a townhouse in Athens, Georgia, a cool college town,

than living in an apartment on Howe Street or Chapel Street or Temple Street or Grove Street in New Haven.

I've been in those apartments.

They're cramped, they're smaller, they're northeastern, and that town is less cool.

Frankly, no offense, New Haven.

But I don't know who's coming around Toad's Place these days, but it's never going to be as cool as Athens, Georgia.

And you know what cats like?

Cool.

That's why they're cool cats.

So ultimately, I have to make a decision based on the welfare of the cats as well as the welfare of the cat owner who wants to be away from them in the deepest possible way.

And in this case, when I consider those two inflection points, they line up pretty clearly.

That

it's been acknowledged that David's place will be better,

that they will have a wider range of exploration and more and more different corners and closets in which to poop.

And what's more, it has been acknowledged that Adrian

has had cats for more of her life and therefore has earned the catlessness that she seeks more than David has.

Is it possible that David is correct, that she will miss the cats more than she anticipates, and maybe that the cats will miss her more than she assesses?

Of course, and I think he's probably right in this case, because when I asked Adrian, who do the cats love more, I got to tell you, Adrian, you prevaricated.

You jumped around, all kinds of things.

He makes them laugh and jump and whatever else.

But you know, you knew that answer, because if you knew that they loved David more, you would have just said David.

But the reality is, cats are fickle, they love one person more than the other, and maybe they love you-you know, they have differences of love for each of you.

But I think the answer was obviously clear by the way you did not answer quickly, which is, yeah, they love you more, and maybe you love them more than you think.

But I do feel that you've earned this experiment of 24 months of catlessness based on time previously served,

and also the circumstances of your life being less good for the cats.

My prediction, perhaps,

you will go to New Haven, you will install yourself in your little apartment, and the ancient music song that you will be singing will be one of sadness, lament, and mourning for the cats that you shipped off to Georgia for your own comfort.

But this court does not litigate against regret.

This court only litigates fairness, in this case, fairness to the cats.

Though I predict, predict, as per the final lines of the song Down by the Sally Gardens, that you will conclude eventually that you were young and foolish and now are full of tears, Adrian.

I nonetheless find in your favor this is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Adrian, the judge is found in your favor.

How do you feel?

I feel good.

I know that I might be full of tears at first, but I think it's for the best.

Do you think you'll ever be full of tears again?

Sure.

I mean,

specifically with regard to the cats.

I should be clearer.

Obviously, tragedy happens to all of us, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I wouldn't want to ask you to completely shut down your emotional life, specifically with regard to the cats.

Yes, I think they will probably, I'm sure they will give me lots of reasons to cry throughout my life.

David, how do you feel about the judge's decision?

Not too surprised.

I think this was always a bit of a long shot

on my part.

And that, you know, I would have had to justify really

making the cats' lives difficult and Adrian's life difficult.

So I guess I'd say I'm feeling pretty sanguine.

People in the 18th century didn't believe in the four humors, by the way.

No, they definitely did.

I'm 100% on that one.

They were way into humors.

The bilious humor was their greatest concern.

I'm not 100% sure what the bilious humor is, by the way.

Adrian David, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

Now, before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Charles Lewis Richter for naming this week's episode Across State Feel Lines.

If you'd like to name a future episode, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

We regularly put out a call for submissions there.

You can follow us on Twitter, at Jesse Thorne, and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H.

O.

I always enjoy seeing those.

And if you want to chat about the case, you can do it on the MaxFund subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com.

This week's episode, recorded by Steve Clark at WCVE Public Radio in Richmond, Virginia, our producer and recordist here in Los Angeles, Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Matthew asks, can you save a street parking space after you have shoveled it clear of snow?

This has caused many arguments between my friend and me.

The answer, of course, is yes.

You can save the street parking space after you've shoveled it clear of snow using one specific method, leaving your car there.

I guarantee you, very few people will take your space if your car is there.

If you leave your space,

then

ethically, reasonably, it is fair game for someone else to take it.

Now, I understand

that in the city of Boston, Massachusetts, my home Commonwealth in the region of New England, this is a contentious issue in particular, particularly a couple years ago when the city and the whole region was pummeled by snow.

People would dig out their spaces, and they were so exhausted from digging out their car spaces that there was a violent expectation that no one would come and park in their space while they were away.

And I think by violent, I mean if you did it, you might face the kind of justice that no podcast can touch, vigilante justice.

And I would say that if you are the one taking the space, you are doing so at the risk of, at the very least, wrath.

But so long as you are going in with your eyes open and an understanding of that risk, you are within your reasonable ethical, moral, and legal bounds to park in that space.

I just wouldn't expect your car to be in good shape.

It'll probably end up with a cone full of snow through the windshield.

But, you know, there you go.

I don't think it's fair to reserve a space once you have vacated it, no matter what the meteorological conditions are.

Judge Hodgman, there is a street here in Los Angeles, right near our office, a few blocks from where I sit now, Alvarado Boulevard, where residents of the small apartment buildings that abut the street will use

chairs and particularly fruit crates

to reserve parking spaces.

It is the only street in Los Angeles or indeed in California where I have ever seen this practice practiced.

And it leaves my jaw agape every time I drive past at its sheer temerity.

I know, but you know, when you're in a neighborhood where that happens, whether it is Alvarado Boulevard in Los Angeles or street name undisclosed in Boston, I can't think of one.

I mean, you would never take one of those spaces, would you, Jesse?

No, because I'd I'd be afraid that someone would mess up my car.

Yeah, basically, that's a signal that, like, the neighborhood is watching.

And if you take a space that is occupied by a fruit crate, then you have broken the neighborhood code.

And even though that is pure vigilanteism, extra-legal vigilanteism, I think their enforcement methods are probably pretty sophisticated.

And while

you would be within your legal rights to take that space, I wouldn't risk your car.

By sophisticated, you mean that they're not just throwing one punch, punch, they're throwing combos?

Exactly so.

XXY, XXY, up, down, left, right, two.

Yeah, that's what I meant when I said combo.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

But

I was young and foolish.

Now Adrian is full of fear.

The old gray mare, she ain't what she used to be.

Ain't what she used to be.

Haint what she used to be.

The old gray mayor, she ain't what she used to be.

What's the last part?

And now the podcast in a bowl of blood.

Sure,

that's that's actually the plot of Jigoku, the famous Japanese New Wave horror movie.

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