Chips Annoy!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
This week, Chips Annoy. Jeremy brings the case against his partner, Christine.
Christine bakes a lot of chocolate chip cookies.

Jeremy thinks she overbakes them, but she says they're always perfectly done. Who's right, who's wrong? Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference, we sat under a tree on a broken bench with nails sticking out of it, drinking beer and whiskey and eating some pretty darn fine barbecue with a couple of mongrel dogs hanging around.

I think we just had a real authentic podcast experience. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.
Jeremy and Christine, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he prefers lemon bars?

Yes.

Yes. Very well.
Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Jeremy and Christine, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the cultural reference that I made as I entered the courtroom?

Jeremy, why don't we start with you? What's your guess?

All I can come up with is North Carolina barbecue. Those are three words.
I mean, that is a type of barbecue, to be fair, to Jeremy. Yes.
Yep. It is a type of barbecue.
It's not a.

Well, it is a piece of culture, of course. It's an integral piece of culture to North Carolina, and there's the Eastern version of North Carolina barbecue.
There's the Western version.

We'll talk about that in a moment. John, would you say that you typically allude to foodways in your obscure cultural reference?

I think if you went back over the seven plus years, I've referred to quite a few foodways. Yes, it's true.
I'm going to put in North Carolina barbecue. And since I, well, you know what?

Here are your options, Christine. You can either guess a piece of culture that I was quoting from or

name any other style of barbecue.

Memphis. Memphis, all right.

Which is, I think, also probably a movie, right?

Anyone got eyes on Google at this time? It's probably a TV show or a movie. I'm probably forgetting what it is, but we'll call that both a piece of culture and a style of barbecue.

And since you made two guesses, Christine, and you made one, Jeremy, I can therefore say grammatically correctly, all guesses are wrong.

Of course, I was quoting from August 2003's issue of Men's Journal magazine.

You know, Men's Journal, of course, is being the preeminent monthly magazine of men who like to journal, specifically a piece called

The Hungry Man's Highway, written by me, John Hodgman, but quoting in that case, famous raconteur,

food expert, television personality, and all-around fascinating and kind human being, Alton Brown, who is with us here right now, our special

expert with him here. Hello, Alton.
How are you? I'm very well, and I remember that day very well, and it was in Mississippi.

And it was on a Sunday. Yes.

I believe when we got there, and people came to that particular place, which was called Betty Davis, if I remember, the Betty Davis grocery.

And people were coming across the county line because they sold beer there

on Sunday next to a dry county. That's right.
We saw many a 17-year-old wearing his dad's seersucker suit come to Betty Davis to buy a case of beer, as though that suit was going to fool anyone.

Absolutely.

There was a pretty bad

checkered kind of plaid combo that I remember one gentleman buying a 12-pack was wearing. But these are memories that you just can't get rid of.

I'm just excited to know that funk legend Betty Davis, when she quit the music industry famously in the late 1970s, went ahead and started a barbecue joint in North Carolina.

He was also a gas station. Yeah, also a gas station in Mississippi.
Well, I would love to get lost in your memory palace forever, Alton. You have an incredible memory.

And if you're not familiar with Alton Brown, first of all, shame on you.

Of course, he is the best-selling author, the host of Food Network's Cutthroat Kitchen, Iron Chef Gauntlet, which is beginning its second season this very night as of the release of this podcast.

And his album, Bitter Like Me, is newly available on all digital formats. I want to hear more about that.
But for now, please welcome back friend of the court, Alton Brown. Hi, Alton.

Thank you very much for having me, Judge. Well, now we've talked about barbecue.
We've talked about styles of barbecue. We've talked about cultural references.
We've talked about TV shows.

But now we're going to talk about chocolate chip cookies. Jeremy and Christine have a chocolate chip cookie dispute.
Jeremy, you bring the case against Christine, who is your partner.

Do I understand that correctly? That's that's correct and your cohabitant and my cohabitant at the moment

that's right we could depending on what happens here it could all be over what is your uh your chocolate chip cookie dispute with christine

well i i'm a a firm believer that you need to pull to take out the chocolate chip cookies before they're done. They have sort of an undone appearance in the oven.

And you take them out and then you have to sort of quickly move them to a cooling rack and and they should be so underdone that when you quickly put a spatula underneath them they should sort of scrunch up some and the chocolate chips should just be oozing

and that has the advantage of both providing a really wonderful chocolate chip cookie immediately and then if you make so many chocolate chip cookies you can't eat them all

and i mean a lot of chocolate chip cookies,

then a day later they're still really, really soft.

And what is it that Christine does wrong? She finishes cooking them? She doesn't just warm up the dough for you?

In a nutshell, yes.

On the bag, it will always say 9 to 11 minutes, and she errs towards the 11.

And I probably err towards about 8 and a half.

So, Christine, what is your ideal chocolate chip cookie? Aside from yours,

describe your chocolate chip cookie to me.

It's got a golden brown edge around

the edge.

It can be a little bit soft in the middle, but it's got to be crispy when it's cool.

Okay.

And what's wrong with Jeremy's warm dough idea?

They're just not as good.

Okay.

Ouch.

Do you guys both bake? You both take turns baking? It's not just like you're making these cookies all the time, Christine, and Jeremy's just going there. Nope, nope, still wrong.
Nope.

Well, I usually make dough and we keep it in the refrigerator. And then if we have an evening of watching TV, we'll bake a tray.
So sometimes he does, but usually I do.

Wow, you guys have the, I mean, you guys just have cookie dough in the fridge.

You're both grown-ups, right?

Right? You're adults. Do either of you have children? Yes.
I have two in their 20s. Yeah, they're grown.
They're out of the house.

This is a second relationship for both of you, I understand.

Yes.

I have to confess it's my third.

Thank you. Thank you for putting that into the record.

So basically, you're announcing you're ready to move on if this doesn't get fixed.

No,

I'm set for life now. Okay, good.
So you're all grown up. You have adult kids.
If you have them at all, they're out of the house. You got cookie dough in the fridge.

And just to watch TV, you're going to make a batch of cookies and just eat them. Oh my goodness.
This is what everyone should be aspiring to. There are a lot of kids who listen to this.

Teenagers, make this your only aspiration.

Alton Brown, you have heard the two descriptions of these cookies. There's a lot of variety in in how people like their chocolate chip cookie.

What is your expert opinion so far and what's going on here?

Well, Judge, you know, the thing about chocolate chip cookies is that once we agree on the actual dough composition or the batter composition, there is, of course, the question of the actual baking of the cookie, which can be done at a myriad of temperatures, to a myriad of donenesses, to a myriad of likings.

So what we really have here is that, you know, there is no absolute right way to bake a chocolate chip cookie. It is to each his own cookie.
From what I understand is that there's one batch of dough.

There is a communal issue here. So the dough, the batter, is actually communal property, is it not? Is this something that is created by the two of you as a team?

I would describe it as communal property.

You would describe it as communal property. You're already fairly suspect.

Your general tone and lack of gratefulness.

Madam, I would ask you, do you consider this dough to be communal property? I guess so. The refrigerator is a shared space.

Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, did he, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Who makes the dough? I do.

Okay, okay, okay. This is an important, just a little piece.
Now, you make the dough. Now, all true chocolate chip cookie connoisseurs consume the dough in its raw form.
Do you do that? I do.

Jeremy doesn't.

What about you, sir? Jeremy, you do not consume the dough.

I do not. And just to clarify the record, I do at times make the dough.
Not as often as Christine. Define at times for us, just so we get a picture of the domestic bliss that's clearly at play here.

I mean, several times a year. Two times.
Several times a year. Two times.

And Madam, you would say that you make the cookie dough how often, Ian? Well, every night.

The whole thing I was trying to point out, Alt, and they're having chocolate chip cookies every night. Yeah.

But she's not making the dough every night.

No, I understand.

The The ratio of dough making squarely falls on the side of the lady. Yeah, no, I would imagine that both of their vegetable crispers are packed full of dough.

They've got dough falling out of that refrigerator. If they're going to Netflix and chocolate chip cookie every night.

Yeah, I understand. Chocolate chip, Netflix, and chill.
I get it.

So it seems to me that the answer here is quite obvious.

Whoever makes the dough gets to bake off the cookies however they see fit.

Yeah. If, sir, you don't like her cookies, make more dough.

You can have separate dough batches. Now, madam, when he does bake the cookies, do you like them or do you find them to be underdone?

They're a little underdone, but I always say I like them.

You always say you like them because, see, you're a kind-hearted person. Right.
And a lot of that has come from the fact that you have experience of being loving and selfless from having two children.

Sir, how many children have you had in your three relationships? I had two stepsons that I helped raise. You got two stepsons.
But you've been too selfish to actually lend your sperm to an ovary.

And I'm getting that.

And I'm seeing a trend here. This guy's not making any batter is what you're saying.

Yeah, exactly. Clearly, he's been withholding all kinds of batter.
There's a rare double entendre for this podcast.

Well, I've been able to put a reproductive pun in with a clear joke, which actually just shows off the fact that I should have a Nobel Prize.

So basically, the only answer here is that, you know, is that we have a woman who's loving and hospitable and selfless, who not only bakes a metric crap ton of freaking cookies, but also eats cookies she doesn't actually 100% like and yet says she does.

So the only answer is for everybody to make their own cookies. That's it.

And then, ma'am, that releases you from the obligation of actually consuming said cookies, leaving more for him when he makes them because he doesn't like your cookies.

Hey, let's step away from the courtroom courtroom for a second and into chambers because it is Max FunDrive time. Here to tell you all about it, Judge Hodgman and me.

Judge Hodgman, welcome to Max FunDrive 2018. Woo-hoo! What is it?

You know this.

I know, but for the sake of this pledge break, I'm going to pretend that I'm a dum-dum who doesn't know

what Max FunDrive is, how much fun it is, how important it is to Maximum Fun, and Judge John Hodgman the program, and allow you to explain it a little bit to me. So go ahead, hit me.
What is it?

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Please make the thing that you enjoy happen. And in return, in addition to our regular great programming, we offer you some really special, amazing episodes with very special guests.

Like this one with Alton Brown. Exactly.
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Oh, yes.

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This is very unusual, but then you're a very unusual person, Jesse. Go ahead.
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Jeremy and Christine, can I ask a question about the way that you are making these cookies? Are you always working from the same recipe?

Or do each of you, when you make the dough, which I understand that both of you do from time to time,

use your own recipe oriented towards your own preferred style of cookie.

Very important question. Answer truthfully, if you please.
I follow whatever on the bag that's available.

We tend to have lots of bags of chips because when we're not eating cookies, we're just eating chips.

A time-honored American tradition.

Chocolate chip cookies are one of those foods designed to be eaten at every stage of the production process. That's right.

From completely unproduced, you simply eat their constituent ingredients in handfuls to mixed but not cooked, at which point you eat it with a spoon, and so on and so forth. That's right.

Sometimes Jeremy even just shovels handfuls of brown sugar into his mouth and chases it with a shot of vanilla.

So, Christine, do you use whatever recipe is on the bag? I almost always use the Toll House recipe.

The classic. That is the classic recipe.

Alton,

you're a television chef and have probably tested many recipes for making the classic American baked good of the chocolate chip cookie.

Hundreds of times. I'm not mistaken in thinking that

the recipe often varies significantly based on whether the desired result is a thin, crispy cookie or a thick, chewy cookie, in addition to the preparation method or the amount of time that's spent in the oven varying.

This is absolutely accurate.

There's chewy, there's cakey, there's thin and crisp. Mostly all revolve around either the various ways of mixing,

either using the creaming method or something we call the muffin method, or in altering different ingredients such as percentage of eggs and egg whites, butter to shortening,

regular flour to bread flour, and of course different types of sugar or using baking soda as opposed to baking powder. There are a lot of different variations on this.

But I'm just curious, if everyone here agrees that the dough is good, Jeremy, why don't you just go in there with a spatula when they're done to your liking and take out your share of the cookies?

Listen to King Solomon over here. That's a good question.

I'm sorry. Just go in.
Yeah, exactly. Just go in and get your cookies.
When they're ready, go in and get them. Let her stay in there.
Then she can go get her cookies when she's ready.

Because he can't get out of his vat of Nestle's morsels at that time.

Well, it arguably would disrupt the baking process of her cookies to take them out of the oven and to remove some from

the pan to a cooling rack. So, I mean, that's not a bad option, but there are issues.
How many cookies are typically being baked at a time? Well, if we're making just a nightly batch, 10 to 12. Okay.

Well, have you ever heard of this stuff called parchment paper?

Yes.

Okay. So put half of them on one piece of parchment paper on the pan and the others on the other side of another piece of parchment paper.

So you can simply reach in, grab the ends of one piece of parchment paper and lift out the entire half set of cookies and close the door before any thermal depletion can be allowed to happen.

Ingenious.

Or get two little pans. Yes.
Two little pans and make six each.

Well, or you could simply make more than 12 at a time, doubling up to 24 on two different pans, in which case you'd also have a very, very viable solution.

It seems like you could get two ovens, put 24 in each, and then you would have 48 total cookies, which is probably more than you could eat.

But hear me out, you could bring them to my office where I would test them and decide which one I prefer. The answer to which is both.
See, there is room.

This is an important point because there is lots of room for a lot of different variations of cookie here. And I think that everyone needs to perhaps be a little bit more accepting of the deviation

in cookies that are available in this household. Well, not everyone, one person.

Because Christine is already very acceptable.

I am trying to be diplomatic. I am trying.

I mean, Christine, you have a lovely voice. I imagine you to be an attractive woman.

And listen, there are a great many opportunities for you out in the world. I myself, you know, for a woman that makes cookies every night.
Elton, this is a podcast, not an Elton Brown dating service.

Personally, I mean, if you want to drop me your phone number over to my website, I've been looking for a woman who can bake some cookies. And I like them a little crunchy around the edge, dear.

So, you know, just keep that in mind, would you?

You know, if you want to go to a two-oven option, oftentimes separate homes have separate ovens.

Just Just something I discovered in my history. No, no, no, no.

The two-oven solution, though, very often leads to other problems because then there become ownership issues of who gets to use what oven when.

It can be a slippery slope for a couple who is already clearly on the edge of disillusionment. How long have you guys been together?

We've lived together for almost two years.

Okay. And why? Like, this is a court of fake law.
Like,

you know, like,

it seems to me that there that there must be some injustice that you are perceiving here, Jeremy, or else we wouldn't even be here.

Why are Christine's chocolate chip cookies unfair to you?

We just wanted to be on the podcast. Oh.

No, he always complains about the cookies.

So you would like me to rule that he stop complaining.

Yes.

Do you think that that's realistic in your relationship?

It is actually. Well,

maybe.

Judge, could I ask one more question that might be considered here in the

middle of the day? Jeremy. Yes.
Which would be better? Christine's cookies or no cookies?

Oh,

that's an easy one. Christine's cookies any day.

Thank you.

So they use the same batter. It's simply a matter of cooking time.
It does seem that this could be resolved very easily by taking your cookies out a little bit earlier.

But I would also have to order, Jeremy, that you acknowledge that Christine's cookies are valid cookies. Are you prepared to make that acknowledgement?

Yes, Sonia. I never claimed they weren't valid.

They are cookies. They definitely are cookies.
All right, that's fine.

Alton, is it, you know, they are both following a recipe from the back of a bag.

And I'm presuming that that bag, not to buzz market a brand on my podcast, but that bag is probably Nestle's Morsels, the Toll House Cookie, sort of quintessential, if not original, chocolate chip cookie recipe dating back to 1938, the Toll House Inn in Whitman, Massachusetts.

Jesse, that's a state in New England.

The cookie was developed by Ruth Graves Wakefield and her chef Sue Brides there at the Toll House Inn.

It's obviously basically everyone's de facto chocolate chip cookie recipe. Is there anything? That means ground zero.
There are many variations.

I myself have built multiple variations based on individual tastes,

but all deriving using that recipe as ground zero.

But the issue here isn't so much the recipe that is being argued over. I don't hear anyone saying this tastes bad.
No, right. The texture is bad.
This seems to be just 100% an issue of dumbness.

Right.

But given that the dumbness obviously affects the texture and everything else, I'm just trying to think, since you are as wise as King Solomon, is there any way to split this baby and suggest an addition to the recipe that might make both parties happy?

Or are they just doomed to sadness?

Well, here's the thing. Obviously, the lady of the house wants contrast.
She wants variety. She may not be getting it in other parts of her life.
So she's trying to get it from cookies.

And that's completely understandable. What she's looking for is, you know, it's a lot like what I've heard a lot of women say they want from a man.

You want something that's soft and texturally complex in the middle, but you want something that's kind of hard on the outside. And that's completely understandable.
She's getting what she wants.

And I think that the bigger message here is that she's kind of, you know, transmitting a larger desire here. And I think that maybe Jeremy's just not picking it up.

you know, of what she's saying she needs out of this relationship.

You know, it would be easy for me to say, you know, maybe just chilling this dough, but they're already chilling it before it's coming out.

So maybe letting it come to room temperature so that the thermal trip for the inner mass isn't quite as lengthy as what the outer edges are getting.

But then that's really just going to be giving in to Jeremy's more clearly kind of petty desires and just suggests that, you know, the shallow approach to the relationship can continue, which I kind of doubt.

I could also say that they could change to a moister sugar or that they could remove an egg white, which is technically a drying agent, or that they could shift the pH of the dough itself by using a different ratio of tartaric acid and baking soda instead of using commercial baking powder in order to change the overall brownness.

But in the end, judge, I don't think that that is actually the issue. I think that the issue is he simply needs to get up and go get his damn cookies out of the oven when he wants them.

Yeah, no, I hear you. It's as simple as that.

Or how about this? How about this? How about what he does is when Christine brings him a cookie, he says, damn it, woman, that's the finest chocolate chip cookie I've ever had in my life.

I love you, and leave it at that.

I do think that you've isolated something very clear here, which is this is not a culinary issue so much as it is a psychological issue.

You have found the crux out in Brown, and I am not surprised that you did. Before I go to my biologically pure clean room where I make all of my cookies in a lab, sous-vied,

and consider my verdict. I have only one question for both of you.
When you are eating these cookies and watching your stories, when you are Netflix and chipping, as it were,

what are you watching?

We watch Colbert a lot.

Good taste. We've been watching Victoria.
All right.

No disagreements on that? No. None at all.
All right. I have a recommendation for you that I will make when I come back from my chambers.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Christine, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

I feel really good about my chances.

Here's a more important question. Why do you think chocolate chip cookies should be crispy? That's the worst kind of chocolate chip cookie.

No, I correct it.

I want to correct what I just said because Alton Brown brought up cakey chocolate chip cookies, which are by far the worst chocolate chip cookie.

Among the legitimate types of chocolate chip cookie, crispy ones are by far the worst. No, but they need to be crispy on the edge, and then they can be softer in the center.
That's

what I seek.

I'm your man. I just want to say that.

Jeremy, how do you feel about your chances in the case? I feel that Christine's chances are really good.

Alton,

you must have prepared many kinds of chocolate chip cookies on television and for books of recipes in the past.

Do you have one that you consider the canonical, it has been decided, Alton Brown chocolate chip cookie recipe?

What I did is quite a few years ago, I did a television program

called Good Eats, where I took the bag of Toll House, I took the recipe off the back and devised three variations and then allowed my fans to decide.

One was called the cakey, one was called the chewy, and the other was called the thin. And the chewy was chosen by a ratio of about 6,971 to 1.

Nobody likes cakey chocolate chip cream.

But when I execute that recipe myself, what I do is I boost the oven temperature just a little bit so that I get not quite as much spread and I assure myself a crispy circumference to have as a contrast to the chewier interior.

Fascinating. Do you find them as satisfying straight out of the oven as they might be after,

you know, having cooled half an hour or an hour later? No, I do not eat them directly from the oven. I do not like them, Sam I am.

I actually, my preferred way of consuming chocolate chip cookies is frozen. Oh, wait, frozen after they've been cooked? Yes.

I freeze them them in bags, and when they're good and hard and crunchy and cold, then I eat them. You know, this is Judge John Hodgman.
I couldn't help but hear you in my chambers. And

the moment I heard that,

I spilled sous-vied water all over my pants. I was so shocked.
Oh, God,

I hope you're not scalded, sir.

No,

I'm baking my cookies at a very low underwater temperature, not to worry.

Wow. It's more of a poaching, but okay.
I'll take my drenched pants back into my lab, but

I didn't think Alton Brown could get more contrarian than I already knew him to be. That's incredible.
Not contrarian, but envelope pushing in his thinking.

You're essentially presenting us with an opinion that rises to the standard of like buzzfeed clickbait article. This technology is so astonishing and counterintuitive.

This happened because when I was quite young and my mom worked, she would bake chocolate chip cookies and then put them in a bag in the freezer so that they would keep.

And I would come home from school alone and be comforted by a chocolate chip cookie, but I didn't wait for them to warm up.

So I ate them cold and that's put me in an emotional, given me emotional connection to cold chocolate chip cookies. I do the same thing to Girl Scout Fin Mints.
Don't judge me. That makes sense.

Wait a minute, Alton Brown.

Are you telling me that food is intimately connected with the emotional narratives of our lives?

No, of course not. I would never admit that.
Okay.

Yes. Yes.
Of course it is. Food is love.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all of this when we come back in just a second.

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I'm mostly taking pictures. Sorry of my children.

All you do is hit that send button, that same send button on your phone that you would use to text message it to somebody, and you can just shoot it straight into an aura frame.

Honestly, I'm thinking about getting an aura frame right now just dedicated to pictures of your dogs. Yeah, I think that's a good call.

Mabel's in there looking all little and cute. You know how much you love sending photos to your friends and family, things that you see, people that you know, things that you do.
I mean, you love it.

It's a gift that you give every day, probably. But I mean, no one loves to look at their phone to see those photos.

What they really enjoy, I really enjoy because I have an Aura frame, is seeing all those memories pop up on a beautiful high-resolution screen and knowing that my family can see the photos that I share with them exactly the same way.

You don't need to download anything. You don't need to download your photos to a SIM card.
and then drive all the way to Brookline to see my dad to put your photos on his Aura frame.

All you need to do is select your photos, send them to the app, and they're on their way. You could get an aura frame for a loved one today.

You don't even need to take it out of the box before you load it up with photos that they're going to love. There's a code you scan, you do it without basically no human hands involved.

By the time they open it, it's preloaded with all the photos that you've chosen for them. It's delightful.
I was just saying to my wife as a whole human being in her own right.

Why have we not given your dad an aura frame? Guess what we're going to do? Sorry, I don't mean to spoil the secret, Brad. You're getting an aura.

This is good news for you and for Brad.

For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte frames, named number one by Wirecutter, by using promo code Hodgman at checkout.

That's A-U-R-AFrames.com. Promo code Hodgman.
Now, this deal is exclusive to listeners, and frames do sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays.

And support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.
The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Well, you know that the pros love to use Made In because it's pro quality cookware, tableware, glassware, everythingware.

We're talking about Tom Calicchio, Brooke Williamson, the pros, but many, many other people who are not professional chefs, but avid home cooks, like maybe Jesse Thorne and maybe me, Judge John Hodgman, love Made In too.

Judge Hodgman, I was at a store the other day. I saw some made-in stuff.
I gave it a hug. Yeah.

You were at a store and you saw some made-in stuff and you gave it a hug. Look, I'm glad you're hugging made-in carbon steel pans or entree bowls or carbon steel griddles or their beautiful non-stick.

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Hello. Hello, I'm calling on behalf of the Beef and Dairy Network podcast.
Oh, no, I'm sorry. No sales calls.
Goodbye.

It's a multi-award-winning podcast featuring guests such as Ted Danson, Nick Offerman, Josie Long. I don't know what a Josie Long is.

And anyway, I'm about to take my mother into town to see Phantom of the Opera at last. You are wasting my time, and even worse, my mother's time.
She only has so much time left. She's 98 years old.

She's only expected to live for another 20 or 30 years. Mother, get your shoes on.
Yes, the orthopaedic ones. I don't want to have to carry you home again, do I?

Right, well, if you were looking for a podcast. Mother, you're not wearing that, are you? It's very revealing, Mother.
This is a musical theatre, not a Parisian bordello. Simply go to maximumfun.org.

I'm reaching for my Samsung Galaxy 4 as we speak. Mother! Mother, not that Hat!

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

You may be seated. First of all, I want to thank our expert witness, Alton Brown, for all of his expertise, obviously, and getting to that crux.

And I'm going to get to that crux in a moment of this case. But Alton Brown, it's such a pleasure.
And, you know, I didn't mean to call you a contrarian. As I say, you're someone who's constantly.

I am. Oh, no, I am.

I'm absolutely a contrarian, sir. I am not offended by that in the least.
Well, I guess you just proved it, didn't you? You literally just contradicted me. Absolutely.

But I remember, I think it was on that same trip that we were driving to Mississippi that you were trying to work out some solution.

for how to cool down stock so that it didn't heat up your refrigerator or something. And you're like, I got it.
Put it in an ice cream maker. And I almost drove off the road.

I was so amazed by the workings of your mind. Thank you for bringing it to bear here.
Thank you. You know, I think that we've learned a lot of things from Alton's expertise and from this conversation.

And thank you, Christine and Jeremy, for lending your experience to what I think is actually kind of an unexpectedly important issue. First of all,

as Alton Brown pointed out, we have a deep emotional connection to the food that we eat.

We enjoy the food that we had before as a kid. Christine, how long have you been making the cookies this way?

About 40 years.

40 years, which is amazing because you're only 32 years old.

I started young. Yeah.
And Christine, you also, you had a previous relationship, I understand, that you were widowed. Is that correct? Yes.

Were these the cookies that you made for your late husband, I presume? Yes, and he loved them. Yeah.

Jeremy, are you too small a person to enjoy another man's cookies?

You see what I'm getting at. No, no,

I enjoy many aspects, actually all aspects of Christine, and I know her deceased husband did as well.

Good.

Yeah, beyond an emotional connection, though, I mean, there is the question, is there a correct chocolate chip cookie? And Jeremy, you have acknowledged that Christine's cookies are valid.

And I would say that Alton has acknowledged that there are varieties of different kinds of chocolate chip cookies and that there is a subjective taste between the crispy and the chewy.

But we all hate the cake. The cake is for gas stations.
Leave that away. No cakey chocolate chip cookies.
But between that continuum of crispy to chewy,

there is a lot of variation and they are all valid. None of them are wrong.
Therefore, what am I to rule on here since this is merely a matter of subjective taste?

And as well, as Alton obviously pointed out right from the beginning, it's easily resolved.

If there is no injustice being done here, just go and get those cookies out of the oven a little bit earlier, Jeremy, and I hope you burn your fingers while you do it.

Then Alton Brown

had another point that he made. He realized

that there is a deeper psychological significance to this cookie that Christine has been making.

It is, first of all, I think it sounds culinarily, even though all cookies are valid, it sounds culinarily more interesting in that it is somewhere in the midst between

the chewy and the crispy, that there is a crispy edge, that there is a texture, that there is a journey you're going through with this cookie.

It's not just a hunk of warm dough that's gotten scrunched up by the spatula before it gets pushed into Jeremy's mouth.

And that Alton identified that maybe that's what she's looking for in another human being.

And we definitely know that Jeremy has a crispy edge, to say the least. And I trust that he is a warm, molten gooey inside as well.

And it made me think, well, what is Jeremy looking for in a cookie and a partner? He's looking for a mush,

a mushy, malleable,

nothing that will just be molded by his whims and eventually by his teeth.

And I don't think that Christine is that person, Jeremy. She's been going along with your cookie thing for a while saying, yeah, these are good.
These are good.

No, Christine, it's time to develop that crispy edge and bite right back at them.

You don't want someone who just says you're right about your bad cookie just because you live together and like to watch Victoria.

She's found the cookie that she's looking for. And I think, Jeremy, you got to look for a better cookie because you already got one.
And metaphorically, this woman in your life is a great cookie.

She's one hot cookie. And

the ones that she makes you are the cookies that you should appreciate.

And so even though all cookies are valid, some cookies are more valid than others for psychological reasons, emotional reasons, and also it sounds like it tastes better.

So I not only find in favor of Christine,

I order you, Jeremy, to change your taste.

Do not go and get those cookies from the oven. You're right.
That will disturb the making of this perfect cookie. When Christine makes a batch of cookies, eat them the way she makes them.

And as Alton Brown says, tell her the truth. They're the best cookies you've ever eaten in your life.
This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all. Also, I recommend you watch Detectorists on Netflix, Amazon Prime, or Acorn.
Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Christine, how do you feel? I feel great. Are you vindicated?

I am vindicated. I'm very happy.
Does your partner partner still get cookies?

Yes.

Jeremy, how are you feeling? I'm okay.

I mean, Jeremy, I think we can both agree as chewy chocolate chip cookie enthusiasts that there are worse punishments than being forced to eat the second best form of the world's greatest baked good.

Agreed. Hey, Jeremy, have you ever tried, here's my hot tip for you.

I really like using, there are two chocolate chip cookie recipes in the America's Test Kitchen slash Cooks Illustrated canon.

They're both in, I think, Best Recipe and in the baking book. One for crispy cookies and one for chewy cookies.
And the chewy one involves melting the butter and allowing it to cool before

incorporating it into the batter. And also using, if I remember correctly, both baking soda and baking powder.

And it creates really great chewy cookie results that you can take out uncomfortably early, then let cool on the counter into chewy deliciousness.

Or you could skip buying the expensive books and just download the Good Eats chewy chocolate chip cookie from foodnetwork.com and you wouldn't have to pay money for it.

It's the same procedure, which I'm pretty sure I invented.

Jeremy, Christine, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We've got a very special mini docket to clear with our friend Alton Brown.

But first, we want to thank Tom Early for naming this week's episode Chips Annoy. If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, that's where we ask for your suggestions.

And it's worth doing just to see other people's wonderful/slash terrible suggestions. Our thanks to Alton for joining us on this week's episode.

His album, Bitter Like Me, is available now in all digital formats. You can also follow him on Twitter at Alton Brown.
And you can catch him on Iron Chef Gauntlet, premiering tonight at 9 p.m.

on the Food Network. You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.
We're also on Instagram where you can see pictures of evidence at judgejohnhodgman.

Hashtag your judgejohnhodgman tweets, hashtag jjho.

And check out the maximum fund subreddit to discuss this episode.

This week's week's episode recorded by Stephen Frank at Baltimore Studios in Baltimore, Maryland, and our brilliant producer is Jennifer Marmer. Thanks, Jennifer.

Now, on to our mini docket.

So these are a couple of disputes that we thought, Alton, you might be well qualified to help us with. Are you ready for this? I will do what I can.

Okay, here's something from Philip. My wife and I host our friends weekly and provide the main dish.
I'm a hunter and I enjoy cooking wild game.

Some people are against eating wild game or shy away from it. We generally cook something easy for a group, like tacos, lasagna, or chili.

My sister thinks I should let our guests know beforehand that there will be wild game in the dinner.

Should I do that or should I only offer up the ingredient list when asked and leave the meat a mystery? Mystery meat, out in brown. What's your take?

I think this is actually an important question because it plays into a kind of a larger food culture issue, which is diversity.

You know, it's funny, we talk about diversity in so many parts of our cultural life, and yet sometimes the very people that will demand it when racial equality is an issue or sexual equality is an issue, don't want to kind of hold that out to culinary issues.

I think that the answer is to definitely tell people what you are serving because it's going to make a lot of of people feel great. They're going to look forward to it.

They're going to be yum, venison. And you know what? If they don't want it, they don't have to come.
I think that you are being extremely hospitable to offer

the fruits of your hunting labor.

I like wild game for a lot of reasons, not to mention the fact that it's an animal that wasn't raised in a feedlot.

So I think that it's culinarily responsible to say we're having venison that I hunted. But but I would not shy from who you are.

And I think you're offering true hospitality by even offering it to begin with. I totally agree with Alton Brown.
Expertise earned once more. This is the sound of a gavel on that one.

Can we get a secondary verdict that I could get some of this venison lasagna? Because that sounds really good to me. I've never had venison.
Do you know that? I had almost everything else.

Venison is pretty gosh damn wonderful stuff as long as you don't expect it to taste like anything else because it's so lean.

But grinding it up and putting it in lasagna, I think, is pretty genius. I make jerky out of it.
Fantastic. Here's something from Matthew.

My roommate Sean and I use a pizza stone regularly in our kitchen. Sean doesn't like to clean the stone after he uses it.
He says he's seasoning the stone.

I think he just doesn't want to wait for it to cool, then clean it. Alden, is Sean a monster or is there something to this?

Judge, Sean may indeed be a monster because his motivation may be simply to avoid doing any cleaning, but he is actually correct.

The stone should not be washed unless something truly hideous happens to it.

Pizza stones are porous and they tend to take on a fair amount of water, some of which can be trapped in the interstices, so to speak, between the granules of the concrete, which could turn to steam and actually rupture the stone upon its next cooking.

I believe that a pizza stone, in fact, should be simply left in the oven and scraped from time to time. So although he may be lazy and he may be the worst roommate on earth, he is in fact correct.

Yeah, you just want to scrape off the bits, right?

You don't want to wash at all.

Right, God. Absolutely.
You do not. I would wash a pizza stone one time, and that's when I buy it just because I don't know where it's been.

And then after it dries and you cure it in the oven, I wouldn't even take it out. Does it serve a purpose in there? Other than cooking pizza? Well, in fact, it does.

And it's interesting that you bring that up, Judge, because if you have a flat floor on your oven and it's not in the way of any venting, I actually like to leave the stone on the floor of the oven because it acts as a thermal load.

Ovens can range quite a bit in temperature as they turn on and turn off.

And having a thermal load in there, something to heat up, actually increases the mass of the oven overall and can help even out those ups and downs. Well, there you go, Matthew.

You thought you were so smart. Alton Brown is smarter.

Not only did he tell you how wrong you were and how a pizza stone should not be cleaned, but he also used the term thermal load, thus delighting our many 14-year-old listeners.

Alton Brown, I am so grateful to you for being here. This is a sound of a gavel.
I judge you fantastic.

Thank you. Always an honor to be in your court, sir.
Justice is sweet

and savory and a little umami.

That's about it for this week's episode. Our thanks to our litigants and Alton Brown.
We'll talk to you next time here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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