Shut Your Spy Hole!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Shut Your Spy Hole.

TJ brings the case against Rachel.

TJ has set up a few security cameras in their home.

He likes being able to see the kids without bothering Rachel, but Rachel doesn't like feeling watched.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Who's this lady?

Who's this lady that drives me so insane?

Sneaking, peeking, sneaking, peeking outside my window pane.

I don't know who she is or where she's from,

but she's my meow meow meow.

TJ and Rachel please.

She hides in shadows, she hides in shadows, and never comes too close.

My mystery lady, my mystery lady, haunts me like a ghost.

I don't know who she is or where she's from.

But she's my meow, meow, meow.

One more verse.

Wow.

What she's seeking

when she's speaking is kind of the bridge.

Will she find it?

Because I don't mind it, even though I question

her obsession.

She's still my meum, yum, meow.

Oh,

she's still my meow, yum, yow.

Belf Jesse, swear them in.

TJ and Rachel, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, or whatever?

Yes.

Yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he himself has no need for security cameras because he's capable of remote viewing?

Yes.

Yes.

Very well.

Judge Hodgman.

Sorry I revealed your powers, by the way.

That's fine.

That's fine.

TJ and Rachel, I can see remotely that you are standing.

You may be seated.

Very well.

First of all, I had a great time.

So far, can we stop the podcast now?

No, we want to hear this case.

But first, for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, TJ or Rachel, Rachel, can either of you name the piece of culture that I not only

paraphrased, but quoted and performed and killed as I entered the courtroom.

Let's see.

How about Rachel?

You go first.

What's your guess?

Well, this one's going to favor TJ as he is the obscure music fan here.

But I'm going to guess

Mystery Girl by...

I'm going to go with a Japanese band.

Some

Japanese pop.

Do you have a name of the band?

I don't know.

Just J-pop in general.

Just J-pop, yeah.

Yeah, now I should have started by saying the name of the song is not Meow Meow Meow.

That was what I was singing instead of the name of the song, so that you wouldn't guess it.

So, your version of Myeow Meow Meow is

She's Still My Mystery Girl, okay, by some Japanese band.

Putting that into the musical guess book.

TJ,

time for you to guess.

I have no idea, but I'm going to guess that it is an 80s band, either Hollow Notes or in Excess, and it is Stalker Girl.

Stalker Girl by Hollow Notes or in Excess.

Or both.

Kind of a vague guess.

We'll call that three guesses so that I can say grammatically correctly, all guesses are wrong.

You are closer, though, TJ.

It was not an 80s band, but it was an 80s performer.

TJ, or Rachel, I don't know.

What are your ages, if I may ask?

I'm 25.

I'm 28.

Oh, so you're young people.

So if I had said, I'm just an average man with an average life.

I work from nine to five.

Hey, hell, I pay the price.

All I want is to be left alone in my average home.

But why do I always feel like I'm in the twilight zone?

Would you have gotten it then?

No.

No.

Oh.

Oh, sad dads listening to this podcast right now are even sadder that you do not recognize.

I always feel like somebody's watching me by Rockwell.

I was afraid to quote that one

because I thought you might get it.

I recognize it now that you say the chorus, but not the verse.

Sorry.

Yeah, maybe no one remembers the Rockwell parts.

They only remember the fact that Rockwell, who is one of the children of Barry Gordy of Motown Records, got his childhood friend Michael Jackson to sing the chorus, and thus it became a number one hit song.

Otherwise, it would have just been yet another Motown fake British accent song about paranoia.

Rockwell went on to have two hits of decreasing hittitude,

also dealing with paranoia of one kind or another and surveillance.

The second hit was called Obscene Phone Caller.

Not a joke.

I had no idea that Rockwell had more than one song until this moment came out, I think, later that same year, 1980,

sometime in the mid-80s, we'll say.

And then the third and final in his Panopticon trilogy is called Peeping Tom.

She's Still My Peeping Tom.

It is his ode to a woman who is staring at him through the window that he falls in love with, that he refers to as a peeping Tom.

All of this stuff is incredible.

In its romanticization of stalking and harassment, it's as bad as I'm always watching you by the police, except it's reverse, because Rockwell has this bizarre fantasy that beautiful women are calling up and breathing heavily into his phone and staring at him through the window, which is not, I don't think, true, at least not these days.

I do hope that he comes back.

He has been promising to come back with a new record.

But meanwhile, TJ and Rachel, here we are together.

I am peeping on you.

You are peeping on me.

And you have a dispute about peeping.

Let's not say peeping anymore.

It sounds gross now, but you know what I'm talking about.

TJ, you're surveilling your wife at home using cameras.

Rachel, you don't want it anymore.

But the case is being brought weirdly by TJ.

So TJ, make your case.

Well,

the case is brought so that the petty argument can come to a conclusion.

I brought it on both of our behalfs, but more on my wife's behalf.

My argument would be that I spend a lot of time at work, and while I'm away from work, I recognize that I'm missing time with my family.

I really enjoy our two children, who are a four-year-old girl named Guinevere and a two-year-old boy named William.

And I also love my wife.

So when I'm at work and feeling stressed out or bored or just want to escape for a couple seconds, I like to be able to pull up the cameras and see what they're doing.

And so you've set up, how many cameras have you set up in your home to monitor your family?

We started with one camera in the living room, and that kind of snowballed into four cameras.

one in the living room one in a dining room that's been converted into a play area for our kids one in our son's bedroom and one in our daughter's bedroom and

where do you work

I

uh have

myriad jobs I am a manager of four college bookstores and also a part owner of some fast food restaurants that I will not name for buzz marketing purposes.

Oh yeah, well this is not the Doughboys.

We don't care about your fast food restaurants here.

I really do care about them, actually.

I really want to know.

How many fast food restaurants do you co-own?

11.

Oh, Rachel?

Yes.

I don't know where you guys are, but you might want to take a walk around the block because it's going to take a while.

Okay, 11.

You co-own 11 fast food franchises?

Yes.

In what part of the world?

One in Arkansas and 10 in Alabama, around the Birmingham area of Alabama.

And do you live, where do you live?

In Arkansas.

I thought you were going to say Brookline, Massachusetts.

Why?

Just buy up franchises in other parts of the country.

And is it a recognizable national chain?

Yes, it's one of the top five fast food QSR restaurants.

It's Arby's, isn't it?

Is it Arby's?

It's Arby's.

I do not like Arby's.

It's disgusting.

No, it's Arby's.

You know, I gave Arby's one fork on them Doughboys.

I mean, I can tell you.

I don't know if you want to edit it out or anything.

How many forks did you get on the Doughboys?

I don't know what a Doughboys is.

Ah, jeez.

Oh, Jesse, this is the one.

This is the guy who knows our podcast but doesn't know their podcast.

Thank God there's someone.

It's a very popular podcast where two lovable fellows named Mitch and Nick review fast food chains.

All right, if it's top five and we've eliminated Arby's.

Is Arby's top five?

Is it chicken?

We do serve chicken.

We also serve like 80 other things.

John, you might not really know this franchise because they're not in the Northeast very much.

Is it regional?

That was what I was going to ask.

Is it regional?

It is not regional, but it does favor the south as it

thrives better in warmer climates.

Oh.

Is it Gatorburger?

Thank you.

Is it Swampseys?

Is it Sweat Dogs?

Ice Pile.

All right.

All guesses are wrong, obviously.

I lose.

What is it?

It is Sonic, America's Drive-In.

Sonic?

I got Sonic.

I drive by a Sonic all the time in Connecticut.

That's not the South.

But I see what you're saying because it's outdoorsy.

Yeah.

So you're a business person.

You're the Ray Kroc of Arkansas.

and you manage five college textbook stores.

And so how do you monitor your family?

Are you in an office all day long or are you on the road hustling milkshake machines out of a trunk and occasionally looking at your smartphone to stare at your children and wondering,

is this what I'm doing it all for?

Well, not wondering, knowing that this is what you're doing it for.

I'm mostly in bookstores

and mostly in two or three that are within 40 minutes of each other.

So I'm not spending a ton of time on the road.

So how do you surveil your family?

What are you using?

A smartphone.

Okay, and you flip through camera to camera.

That's good.

You don't see them in the living room.

You look in your son's bedroom.

You look in the various nooks and crannies.

And then you have your secret other hidden cameras that your wife doesn't even know about.

John, don't tell her.

All right.

Rachel, this all sounds fun for him and horrifying for you.

But I'll let you speak for yourself.

What is your quarrel with this idea?

Um, well, I'm I'm fine with the ones in the kids' room.

Um,'cause, you know, we have baby monitors that are the new video cameras, so I check on them when they're in their rooms for quiet time and stuff.

I don't like the one in the living room.

It's right across from where I tend to sit when I'm fielding our

two incredibly adorable but challenging children.

And uh I I just don't like feeling like I'm

being watched.

Really?

That's such an unusual human feeling.

You might be the one person who kind of feels uncomfortable being monitored at all times in their own home by their husband.

So I'm surprised you don't like that.

Yeah, I'm

strange.

Just to explain it to the rest of us who would feel perfectly comfortable with our spouse keeping a camera trained on us at all times, what makes you feel uncomfortable about it?

Well, one, I do battle depression and anxiety.

And one of my biggest challenges is I tend to feel guilty about things that aren't actually a big deal.

You know, and the pressures on stay-at-home moms of being able to do everything.

The house should be spotless, dinner should be ready, kids should be angels, you know, is not very realistic.

And

so I don't like the idea of him looking in and seeing me sitting on the couch and then looking in an hour later, not seeing that I've

split up a fight and I've changed two poopy diapers and I've

gotten snacks.

And again, seeing me sitting on the couch, I feel like it's going to

give the impression that I don't do much all day.

Right, because you're afraid that he's going to see all of the couch sitting and not any of the work in between.

Yeah.

Depending on when he checks in.

Yeah.

But on the plus side, I mean, I appreciate your struggle with anxiety and depression, did you say?

Yes.

Yeah.

But knowing that your husband might be randomly monitoring you at any given moment, that might help you keep it all together, right?

That might help you push it all down inside and act like a normal person.

I don't think so.

I just tend to escape to the bedroom where there is no camera.

Yet.

For now.

For now.

For now.

You appreciate that I am joking.

It is a horrifying thing

for anybody, TJ,

for anybody who isn't struggling with anxiety and depression to feel as though they are being monitored and perhaps judged by their loved one.

And especially if it's someone like Rachel who feels anxiety, how do you feel when she expresses her concern that you might be judging her and not only that, but judging her poorly?

Well, we've been married for seven years and you know, the

sounds bad to say it this way, but the depression and anxiety kind of started around the time that we got engaged, which she will attest to that is true.

I don't think it's my fault.

But

it's a moment of high emotional intensity.

I think it's because there's too much goddamn Arby's around the house.

That's true.

I was going to ask TJ if you ever catch her slacking off, but a better question, you ever catch her like eating some Arby's on the sly?

Eating some non-sonic.

You know, all fast food is welcome in our house.

Whatever makes her feel better.

But I was going to say, we've been married for seven years.

And, you know, in that time, she's had the depression and expressed anxiety and worries that, you know, that I would judge her for not getting stuff done around the house pre-cameras.

And I just always do my best to assure her that, you know, I love her and I know that sometimes she struggles and sometimes she has days where she needs to not do anything and that's fine.

And I also recognize that we have two kids and no matter how much you clean the house, it will be a wreck 10 minutes later.

So when I come home and there's toys all over the place, that's okay because, you know, she probably cleaned the house 30 minutes before I got home.

And you also, I think, understand to some extent that no matter how much cleaning she does, the house will always smell like roast beef.

Let's take a quick recess so we can hear about this week's sponsor.

When we come back, we'll get into the evidence.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

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Court is back in session on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Shut Your Spy Hole.

Let's get back into the courtroom to hear more about TJ's home cameras.

You're using

probably some popular brand of web-based surveillance camera.

I use a Nest,

or I have used a Nest in the past.

Do you want to name your brand?

My brand is WiseCam.

Okay.

There you go.

You got your money.

Good job.

They're actually these really cheap cameras.

So I don't know, you know, I don't know if the brand will ever get big, but they were $20.

They have smoke detectors and carbon monoxide

detectors and two-way communication.

So when you're watching your wife creepily from your phone in the stockroom of one of your bookstores, you can go, hey, honey.

Hey, honey.

I see you.

And she can hear you?

He could.

He's only done it a couple times.

And not quite that creepily.

It's usually just, hi, Rachel.

Oh, he does it.

He actually says stuff?

Occasionally, not often.

I don't think I've ever said anything directly to you.

I think it was always to the kids.

You've said something to me.

But I mean, the kids were in the room.

What do you say to the kids?

Just, hey, Guinevere, I miss you.

Aw.

I love you, my beautiful daughter.

Don't misbehave.

I am the ghost daddy who used to live in this house.

All right.

Luckily, you've sent in some evidence so we can evaluate not only your surveillance practices, but also whether or not Rachel deserves to feel as guilty as she does about how she keeps house.

I don't want to cause you anxiety, Rachel.

I think probably you're going to come out okay.

All these images, of course, are going to be available on the showpage at maximumfund.org, Judge John Hodgman showpage, and also at our Instagram account at JudgeJohnHodgman.

Okay, first image is

the playroom.

We have a picture of the playroom.

Is that a...

But I see the camera in the picture.

Do you have a camera looking at the camera or is this just a photo of the placement of the camera?

That is just a photo of the placement of the camera.

Okay, circles within circles.

The watchers are watching the watchers.

Got it.

And then we have another one here of your daughter Guinevere's room, I see, and you have the camera mounted.

What are you trying to show in these photos, TJ?

You're the one who submitted this evidence, correct?

I just wanted you to be aware that the cameras are not like hidden in teddy bears on dressers or anything clandestine.

They are in the open.

When we have guests, they are able to see them and have a conversation about them.

And presumably your kids know that they're growing up.

They can see the cameras so that they know that they're growing up in a total surveillance state at all times.

I've made my four-year-old aware of that.

We've watched ourselves from my phone.

That's right.

Our two-year-old doesn't quite understand.

Right.

That's why in Guinevere's room you have this hand-stitched

primer that says dystopia, sweet dystopia on it.

She picked that out.

No, really?

That's cute.

It's very cute.

No, it looks very nice.

By the way, your home looks really nice.

These rooms look like a lot of fun, very comfortable.

I love it.

If I were a kid growing up in Arkansas, I would want to sit in that big comfy chair, and I I would like to climb into that

pink, adorable tent.

Thank you.

So now we get to the real stuff here.

And I urge all of you listening to the podcast to now pull over in your cars and follow along as we look at the video footage of Rachel and your son, William, under surveillance.

Because we have a pledge drive coming up, and because as a donors-only special, we're going to be releasing a super cut of Jesse reacting to animals

while I'm watching Rachel and your son William I will ask Jesse to direct his attention to the left of the screen where you will see a cat okay you see the cat there Jesse yeah it looks like a little bit of a fat cat yeah it looks like a little bit of a fat cat right

what's the name of that cat that's Junebug

Junebug how many cats do you have two

What's the cat?

The other one is Ellie, and she is much more skittish.

And thinner.

And a lot thinner.

Yes.

All right, Jesse, I'm going to press play on mine.

Are you ready to press play on yours and react to Junebug?

I have one quick question about the freeze frame that I'm looking at before I press play.

Okay.

I presume that's an iguana in a safety vest in front of the fireplace.

Oh, no.

I think that that's a,

since we're just talking brands here, that looks like a Dyson hand vac to me.

Is that a vacuum cleaner?

It could be our son has a miniature toddler-sized Dyson vacuum.

That's exactly what it is.

It's pretty amazing.

I didn't know such a thing existed.

Could also be a very skinny armadillo, though.

That's true.

So to set the scene, for those of you listening along who can't pull over and watch immediately on the show page at maximumfun.org or Instagram, we see a lovely suburban living room, a beautiful brown couch, a great comfy-looking recliner.

Rachel is sitting on the corner of the couch, looking through some papers with what looks like a very comfy throw over her legs.

I can tell that it is around Christmas time based on the stockings above the hearth and also the time stamp of 12-4-2017, 10 a.m., 25 minutes, and 48 seconds.

And now we play.

Jesse Thorne, keep an eye on that cat.

Very high-quality image.

I'm watching William.

There goes.

What's he doing?

Where's he going?

Let's go back for instant replay.

Play again.

Okay.

He's just lying there at the beginning.

And I'm like, oh, here comes the little babies doing cute baby stuff.

I don't need to really look at the cat.

Woo!

Over he goes over the little white fence.

Where are you headed, buddy?

That's Junebug hopping over a child room divider.

Nothing stops Junebug.

Yes, he's escaping the crazy toddler.

There we go.

That's one for the super cut.

But now let's get back into what we're seeing here.

First of all, very high quality image here, TJ.

I don't want to stump for wise because I'm a Nest guy, but it's a very high quality image.

I can appreciate how tuning in to this lovely domestic scene would brighten up my day if I were out there checking in on almasonics or doing inventory at one of my four bookstores that I manage.

Is that what you're getting out of this, TJ?

Yeah, it's a nice escape.

I mean, you know, I...

It doesn't sound super stressful, but a college bookstore environment during at least four months of the year is pretty high stress, a lot of hours.

And so it's nice to have just a brief escape where I can see my cat jump over a gate and my son throw stuff and my wife be beautiful no matter what she's doing.

Yeah, no.

I mean, it's really charming and it's really,

you know, it relieves my stress.

So I do look forward to whatever I rule, I do look forward to getting the password.

to your cams so I can keep an eye on things.

Thank you very much.

But Rachel, was this a situation where you knew you were being watched?

Nope.

I never know when he's checking in or when he's not.

How do you feel about the fact that he was able to collect this footage of you in

a moment of rest and

quiet work in your home, vulnerable on the couch, just covered with nothing but a throw?

can capture this image and send it to a perfect stranger in Brooklyn to watch you.

It's a little little awkward.

That actually I was really stressed out doing that paperwork

because paperwork.

What were you working on?

It was some different bills and

some insurance stuff, which is always unpleasant.

So I was just, I was really stressed out.

So it is sort of like, huh.

He caught that moment, but he didn't know

that I was really stressed right there because you can't see that on the video.

I was stressed too.

What were you stressed out about?

Probably some bookstore thing.

That's why I peeked in.

Gotcha.

Because it gives you a little, a little,

what's it?

What's what am I looking for, Jesse?

Serotonin?

Oxytocin.

Some kind of good feeling is released in your brain when you see your cute kid and your cute cat and your cute wife, right?

Yeah.

And that pleasure that you get

overrides her human right to privacy.

I mean,

I'll let that silence surface answer.

Rachel, do you ever do anything to avoid the cameras?

Does your

lifestyle change in the living room, knowing that you could be watched at any time?

It actually has a little bit.

I've always been,

we've got kind of a nice big bathroom.

And that's always I'm I'm always cold, hence the throw.

Um, and the space heaters just we keep them in the bathroom.

And so that's always kind of been one of my

places.

But your refuge?

Yeah.

But I I used to sit on the couch sometimes, um, like at quiet time when the kids are

enclosed, um,

and and take a breather there.

Sure, I know what that means.

Getting them into hyperbaric chambers.

Are any of these cameras pointed at the cages?

Just their rooms, very, very large cages.

But now I do feel a little like I can't just relax in the living room.

So I,

at quiet time, I'm almost never in the living room.

Do you ever consider just putting a post-it note over the camera the way my father-in-law puts a post-it note over the

camera in his computer because he's convinced convinced that the government is watching him and he's probably right.

It's occurred to me I could easily move the camera to behind the TV,

but it seems sort of rude.

I don't know.

You ever think about getting a dry erase board or a chalkboard that you could put in front of the camera that just says

we're experiencing technical difficulties?

Check back again later.

No, but I might keep that in mind.

I did receive a message.

Can I tell them about the message?

Yeah, go for it.

I received a message.

Can I read them the message?

Go.

Okay.

Yeah.

I received a message.

I will allow it.

Thank you, Rachel.

I will allow it.

It's probably in her favor.

I think I've probably already lost.

Let me find it.

She sent me a message yesterday at 1.10, which is about when nap time starts.

That's what...

quiet time, nap time.

She said...

I'll make a note in my log so that I won't tune in at that time, knowing there will be no action.

Go on.

The message says, please don't watch me on the camera.

I'm watching This Is Us.

The bedroom TV wouldn't play it.

And William has my iPad.

I don't need you watching me ugly cry.

Oh, wow.

How did you send him this message?

Was this a text or did you just hold it up over your head?

I texted him.

As it was opening, I started crying pretty quickly, and I was like, wait, this is why I didn't want to watch it in the living room.

I got to tell him not to watch me.

Which I totally respected.

I do understand a desire for privacy, and when she expresses specifically, don't watch me at this time, I'm definitely not going to watch her.

So, Rachel, in addition to this message that you sent him, any other attempts you've given him to throw him off, to say no thanks?

I've made kind of a lot of passive-aggressive comments.

I have also flat out said I don't like the camera in the living room.

And how does he respond when you say that?

I submitted a request to be on a silly podcast.

And here we are.

So if I were to rule in your favor, would that living room cam go away?

Yes, it would.

Uh-huh.

And TJ, obviously, if I were to rule in your favor,

not only would the living room cam stay, but what, you would add cams in every room?

not every room.

I there is uh definitely

the bedroom is off limits, the laundry room is unnecessary, uh, bathrooms are off limits, but yeah, every other inch of the house would be covered in these nice $20 cameras.

Why not add the laundry room as well?

You never know when

Rachel is going to wander in there, and you can catch her crying,

crying softly to herself i just need to be alone

you know she wants to take refuge in that bathroom where you keep the space heaters you could put a couple in there have you thought about gluing one of these to her forehead for a first-person effect

what you could do is you could tie gopros to each of your children's foreheads and then instruct them to stare at each other so you can watch them back and forth

Or you could even go virtual reality and do that incredible thing that I haven't tried, but I've heard so much about, where you put one virtual reality helmet on one person, or in this case, one of your children, and you put the other virtual reality helmet on the other one of your children, and you show them their own bodies so they feel like they're inhabiting the other person's bodies.

Oh my God.

I haven't heard about that.

That's wild.

If I weren't so afraid of spiders, I'd do that in a second.

That is terrifying.

Yeah, that sounds emotionally scarring.

If I ordered that double VR helmets for your kids, would that at least bring your mad scientist impulses to an end?

Or would you want to go further?

Well, I mean, I did say that I would uphold your ruling no matter what, so I guess I would have to go through with the double VR experiment, and then depending on how I feel afterwards,

we might go further.

I mean, a two-year-old has a tenuous sense of self at best.

You could really tear these kids up.

Please, John, do not make us do that.

I will decide, but I do appreciate your commitment to the rule of fake law.

So now I have seen moving image, really crisp moving image.

This is a pretty powerful camera, pretty powerful tool.

Now that I have seen images of your wife and your son, I notice that you didn't put your daughter in there, maybe because you just didn't catch her.

And I also noticed you didn't include any spy cam images of yourself.

I did consider sending in a picture of me and the kids sitting in that big, comfy brown chair in the living room.

It's a great picture.

They're hugging each other and I'm on my phone taking a snapshot of the camera.

But I considered that to be pandering and I wanted this to be a fair case.

Why would that be pandering?

Because he's so goddang handsome.

Because you're so goddang handsome and because it would have been so goddang cute and on top of that it would have been so god dang meta to have a picture of you taking a picture.

Yeah.

I might have found in your favor, if only because you were applying the same surveillance state techniques to yourself as well as to Rachel.

But with the evidence that you provided, it only suggests that she and your children are the ones who are being spied upon.

Rachel, you never watch him on the cam, do you?

No.

You can't, can you?

I do actually have the passwords, and we've checked in on the kids on dates before when they're with a babysitter and we always tell tell the babysitters, there's a camera there, just so you're aware.

So, you know, I could, but.

Oh, when you guys are on dates.

I was going to say, those kids are too young to be dating.

Whether or not you've got a camera on them.

Kids, just wear these GoPros and go on out to Sonic.

Let me ask you this question, then I think I'm going to be ready to go into my bathroom full of space heaters that I call my chambers and ponder my decision and come back with my verdict.

At any time monitoring the cameras in your home, have you ever watched a crow attack your window?

No.

Rachel, has a crow ever attacked your window that you've seen it in person, not on camera?

No.

I think I've heard everything I need to.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

TJ, are you familiar with any other technology that could connect you remotely with your family besides surveillance cameras?

Well, you know,

I am aware of certain technologies, but I think something that I didn't mention to the judge that is probably going to come back and haunt me is

the point of the cameras is to not bother my wife.

You know, I want to see the kids, but I don't want to make an ordeal out of FaceTiming them and then them getting upset when it's time for me to go or anything like that.

I just, you know, want to be unobtrusive in my wife's life and still be able to, you know, peek in and see what they're doing.

So yes, a telephone or FaceTime or, you know, any other number of mobile devices could allow me to talk to them, but it feels obtrusive.

So you want to not bother slash continuously bother your wife?

Any more than I already am.

Rachel, how are you feeling about your chances in this case?

Aaron Ross Powell,

I'm feeling pretty good.

Although I would like to reiterate,

we have been married seven years, very happily, and I don't think that he is like consciously judging everything I do.

My concern is more with subconscious judging.

Like if every time he looks at the camera,

it looks like I'm not doing anything.

Eventually, subconsciously, that's the impression he's going to have of what I do all day.

So, but yeah, I'm feeling pretty good.

I mean, I think you're all set.

Your husband's a creeper.

You should get rid of him.

No.

I'm just pulling your leg, Rachel.

He seems great.

I kind of like him.

I think I'll keep him.

Well, we'll see if Judge John Hodgman lets you.

We'll be back in just a second with the verdict on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

So, in violation of my own court's orders, I've been brand marketing Nest pretty hard.

as well as Sonic.

And I invite both of these corporations to sponsor our podcast.

I use one of the products,

and I have driven by the other product many times, because it's not just in the south.

But the nest cans we have, you might not be surprised to learn, are

in Maine,

where we have a home that is far away from us.

And we have one in the kitchen to monitor the temperature of the house when we are away, because it gets cold.

And we have one in the basement

because sometimes we get water in the basement and we want to see if there's water getting in

so that we can call a neighbor to go check out and see if it needs more attention.

And it has been a really interesting, and I can appreciate from TJ's point of view, addictive

habit

to check in on a place where you live when you are not there.

There is a reason why

there are a whole subgenre of horror movies

set around watching surveillance footage of your own home when you're not there.

Because there is something uncanny about it.

I did not appreciate until I started surveilling my own home how much your psychology just kind of erases the memory of that home.

And you kind of feel like, even if there are loved ones inside of it, you go out into the world and you're in a different world and everything else ceases to exist until you get home.

Like it goes into another dimension, the Greyhouse universe from one of our earliest episodes, where it's kind of there, but not really there.

And then snapping back and seeing a picture of it when you're not there has a real psychological component that I did not anticipate when I first saw it for myself.

It is this combination of how, you know, an only child impulse, how can this exist without me there?

Or in your case, TJ, how can this life be going on without me there to observe it?

And it also makes you feel empowered in a way, like a ghost haunting your own house, seeing and observing without ever being seen or observed.

This is why it was so incredible

whenever we would get emotion alert, we would rush to the computer to see what it was.

And it was always just someone plowing the drive or whatever.

It was never anything interesting.

Until,

until

a crow attacked our window.

Ladies and gentlemen, probably the most exciting day of my life.

Not merely because

I got to watch a crow attack our window,

but it confirmed with hard evidence a theory that I had put together over a long time as to why

crows were attacking my son's window and terrorizing him every morning.

Someone in the neighborhood said, probably that crow is seeing itself in the reflection of the window.

And crows are very smart, but also

they hate themselves.

So

they territorially will attack their own reflection in the window.

And I thought that was a fine hypothesis.

And then thanks to camera technology, I watched it happening.

And it was scary.

because crows are scary in a delightful Stephen Kingy way.

But also very exciting because it was confirmation of my thesis.

It was confirmation of the scientific method.

I had ruled out the idea that the crow was haunted by one of my ancestors who was coming to kill my son to inhabit his body or whatever, and instead confirmed the theory that crows attacked their own reflection in the window.

And it was all brought to me by this science, the science that is bringing us an image that we couldn't have had just a generation ago.

So, TJ, I get it.

I get why you want to see your adorable family in action.

I love watching them, and I look forward to watching them for months to come.

Your child, William, is very cute.

Your wife, Rachel, is adorable.

Junebug is terrific.

Guinevere and Ellie the Cat are too skittish to show up on camera.

They're hiding out in a crawl space somewhere, trying to avoid constant scrutiny.

But you have to imagine what it is like to be on the other side of the camera.

Rachel is home.

Your work is hard, and her work is super hard.

You got to take care of those kids and those cats and clean up all those chokeables off the floor and grab up that Dyson vacuum or whatever and do it all before 7 p.m.

or whatever when you get home to make it look like everything's under control.

I was at home with my kids for a long time.

When my wife would go and teach high school, I would stay home with our daughter when she was little.

And it gets rough.

It gets rough during the day.

And, you know, tempers flare in both directions.

My daughter, my infant daughter and I would get get into tussles, psychological battles.

I will say, you know, voices were raised in both directions from time to time when one person's nap time or refusal to take a nap was interfering with my nap time.

I'll leave you to figure out who is bothering whom.

I wouldn't have wanted any of that to be seen by my wife.

I don't want...

my inadvertent traumatizing of our children to be recorded, to be shown on a podcast somewhere.

This is hard, complex work that a parent does when they are at home with the kids.

And from time to time, they got to watch this is us and just have a cry

and know that they're able to do that without being peeked in on by even the most well-meaning of spouses going, hello, it's me, but not even saying hello, it's me, just going like, mm,

I'm watching.

Now,

I wouldn't want to rob TJ of the ability to check in on his cute little house and his cute little family.

And I like that picture

of that living room.

I wouldn't want to have denied the universe

the pleasure of Jesse Thorne laughing at Junebug leaping over a barrier.

There is unquestionable good that comes out of of this technology.

But just as in photos and videos of children that used to be sparse when we were kids, or when I was a kid,

now

everything is documented within an inch of his life.

Is that necessary?

Do you need this archival footage in order to feel the connection to your family that you want?

Do you need the ability to check in at any time?

Or

does Rachel deserve some moments of her life that are not potentially being surveilled?

I mean, obviously, this court

believes that Rachel deserves the basic dignity of not being watched without her consent.

And unfortunately, tuning in and watching for a little bit and then going, hey, honey, I'm here, is not significant enough consent.

Now, it probably won't surprise you to learn that I was monitoring all of your communications while I was in my chambers.

And I heard you say, TJ, that the whole point of watching silently is to not bother Rachel,

which is, you are absolutely right.

I will hold that against you.

Because what you are doing is you are adding a level of constant bother

because it will always be a question in our mind: am I being watched or am I not being watched?

So,

I think that it's fine for you to to have the cameras in your kids' rooms.

Parents surveilling children is a time-honored tradition and a necessity of modern life, even when they're little kids.

But spouses surveilling spouses is a no-go area, I think,

for all sorts of reasons within a relationship, even without kids.

And by surveilling, I mean monitoring without

notice or consent.

So, I don't mind if you have a camera in that living room

for occasional check-ins,

but you need to send Rachel a text saying, do you mind if I check in right now?

That's not bothering her.

That's giving her agency to say, of course, we're just hanging around.

We'd love to hear your disembodied ghostly voice and know that you are seeing us from far away.

Equally, Rachel should have the right to put a post-it note over that thing.

But constant open channel in that living room is not cool.

And while I will not necessarily order Rachel's specific request that that camera be removed completely, because TJ, I want to give you a chance to modify your behavior.

I find in Rachel's favor, this is the sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Rachel, you are confident going into the verdict.

How do you feel now?

I'm happy with that.

You got post-its already?

Are you headed to Staples or whatever?

I think we've got them somewhere.

I'll have to find them.

TJ, how are you feeling?

I'm pretty bummed out.

I,

you know, my wife is not the quickest to respond to messages, so I think having to message her kind of ruins the ability to just pop in at a small break moment at work.

Maybe we'll come up with some rules where I message her and let her know, hey, is it okay in the next hour to peek in?

Can I recommend something to you?

Yeah, of course.

You know, there's a dog kennel near my house called Wagville.

And they got webcams right there on their website.

You can watch all these dogs running around.

There's like a big dog area and a small dog area.

So if you need a quick hit, just check out them doggies.

Rough, rough.

TJ Rachel, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

What a pleasure to get to know you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

Before we get to Swift Justice, our thanks to Joel Martin for naming this week's episode, Shut Your Spy Hole.

If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho, and check out the MaxFun subreddit to discuss this episode.

That's at maximumfun.reddit.com.

This week's episode, recorded by Scott Minor at Lucky Dog Audio in Little Rock, Arkansas, our producer and recordist here in Los Angeles is Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

You ready, Judge Hodgman?

I am am ready.

Travis asks: Should you apologize if a person insists that you have to?

I think it defeats the purpose.

Well,

as someone who has been asked to apologize

by the dozens upon dozens of pedants who write into the email telling me that I misspoke, got a grammatical issue wrong, or ruled unfairly based on prior precedent, or whatever else, To you all I say,

I'm sorry, okay, I'm sorry.

The fact is that I like everyone writing in and complaining about the show almost as much as I like people writing in and complimenting the show, because complaining is just another form of compliment.

And if someone requests an apology from you,

I think that it is good form to presume that their request is in good faith.

And even if you cannot possibly fathom why they were offended by something you said or did, take it at face value that they feel that way and go through the entirely painless and, in fact, somewhat purifying and humbling process of simply saying, I'm sorry.

Not I'm sorry, but, or I'm sorry, if, or I'm sorry,

just say, I'm sorry.

Thank you for...

saying your words.

I'm sorry.

Jesse, I'm sorry it took so long to say that.

Judge Hodgman, I'm sorry I helped start this podcast.

I'm not sorry at all.

I'm glad.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I'm sorry I made that joke.

I'm sorry we're out of time.

That's about it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJHO or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case is too small.

Maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Sorry.

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