Public Befriender

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, public befriender,

Heather brings the case against her husband, Larry.

Heather says that when they're out running errands, Larry spends too much time chatting with whomever he meets.

Larry says Heather should embrace people in her community more freely.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Fairly or unfairly, many people are tried in life.

The mistake people make is that they think the trial is a sign of failure.

It's not.

It's only a doorway that leads to who you really are,

which is to say, a litigant in the court of Judge John Hodgman.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite his cold northeastern heart?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman.

You're right, Jesse.

Now, I don't even want to talk to either of these nice Texans.

I just want to say, how do you do?

And keep walking on.

But I will not.

Larry and Heather, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I quoted, and it was a direct quote until the very end when I made reference to the podcast.

As I entered the courtroom, let's start with you, Larry.

You love to chat.

Chat with me.

I do.

I have a very little idea.

I'm going to go with it's from Walden.

Ah, Walden?

By

Henry David Thoreau.

Yeah, but do you know what I heard on NPR the other day?

Tell me.

I think it was the anniversary of his 100th birthday or death day or something.

They had a different pronunciation for Thoreau.

And they said the family pronounces it Thurau.

Did you know that?

I did not, but I like it.

You think public radio is having a joke on me?

I'm a big fan of public radio.

Good work.

I'm going to call him Henry David Thurau.

We'll put that in the guest book.

Of course, Henry David Thurau was a famous New Englander who built a cabin on Walden Pond in Concord, Massachusetts, in order to experience solitude.

Not often recorded that his cabin was about a five-minute walk from his friend's house, Ralph Waldo Emerson, where he would frequently go to get pie to bring back to his cabin.

Did he just steal it from the windowsill, hobo-style?

Pretty much, yeah.

But I think that Emerson was in on it.

He's like, oh, here comes old Neckbeard with a pie out.

He's trying to be self-sufficient.

Let him think he stole it.

All right, Heather.

Now it's time for you to make a guess.

Why are you guessing Walden?

What are you going to guess?

I do not know, unfortunately, so I'm going to go with my prepared guess, which is the passage by Justin Cronin, in which

introvert and weird-only child Amy Harper Belafonte saves the world from the brink of extinction.

I think you're talking about Vacation Land by John Hodgman.

True stories from painful beaches.

Very similar.

No, but Heather, I like our new segment, Book Talk with Heather.

I've never heard of this book.

Tell me more.

Oh, my gosh.

You've never heard of this?

Oh,

it's fantastic.

Yes, you must read it.

I believe they're working on a television series as well.

It's my understanding.

Heather, this could be your only chance to secure the career you've always wanted.

Local public radio, public affairs show book critic.

Dare to dream.

Justin Cronin is a

literature professor at Rice University, and I've seen him speak a couple of times.

He's fantastic.

Check it out.

And the name of the book is The Passage.

The Passage is the first one, the second is The Twelve, and the third is The City of Mirrors.

So it's a trilogy.

So am I presuming that this is a piece of speculative fiction, science fiction fantasy genre?

It is, and it spans 1,000 years.

That's a lot of years.

It's a lot of years, but it's great.

Well, I encourage all of our Judge John Hodgman listeners to check out the book that Heather has buzz marketed since I have never heard of it.

No, that's all right.

Look, put some money in another author's pocket.

Also, check out Vacation Land by John Hodgman, bit.lea slash painful beaches for pre-order.

Or now, I think it's probably available in stores or about to be, so check it out.

But yes, because I've never heard of this book, it is unlikely that I chose it as the up it would be a profoundly obscure cultural reference to me so we can say that one guess is definitely wrong we'll go over what did you say again larry walden yes well that's wrong too so not only both but all guesses are wrong would i give you a hint if i gave you another quote late on us yeah how about this hey hey

now don't tell me you don't remember me because i sure as heck fire remember you

that does ring a bell that rings a bell right Ned Ryerson, Needle Nose Ned, Ned the Head.

Come on, buddy.

Case Western, hi, Ned Ryerson.

I did the whistling belly button trick at the high school talent show.

Bing.

Do you get it now?

Okay.

Groundhog's Day.

Right.

Bing.

All right.

So who is the character, Ned Ryerson?

Who is the actor who played him?

You know, I think I've heard you reference him previously in another episode.

And I think he recently

recently passed away.

I don't know.

You know, he's a character actor.

You've seen a hundred different things, but I couldn't tell you his name.

Wait a minute.

Now I'm doing a very frantic Google search to

see if that's true.

No, he is not.

He did not pass away, I'm glad to say.

I made that up then.

Oh, my heart was beating pretty fast there.

My celebration was about to become an in-memoriam for Stephen Tobolowski.

Stephen Tobolowski.

Great character actor who played Ned Ryerson in Groundhog Day and has a second and very successful career as a storyteller and writer.

He has a podcast called The Tobolowski Files that's been going on for a long time, and he tells very funny stories that often are very deep.

And that particular quote was from his first book, which is called The Dangerous Animals Club.

And I've heard this guy talk.

He's amazing.

And let me make a recommendation to you, Heather.

Check out any book by Stephen Tobolowski, My Adventures with God, The Dangerous Animals Club.

And there's a third one that I can't remember at the moment.

So use your machine and look it up, everybody.

I've got no book recommendations for you, Larry.

Sorry.

So you are a maths teacher there in Texas?

I teach maths indeed.

Okay.

And what do the students call you?

Mr.

Richard?

Mr.

Richmond.

Do they say, well, you've revealed your last name.

Is that okay?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That'll be fine.

I'm pretty sure that

they will be eagerly listening to this podcast.

Are you a cool teacher?

Are you one of the cool teachers the kids love?

Huh.

Yes.

They call you Mr.

R.

Yeah, no,

no, not I'm not cool like that for sure.

I'm

probably,

I try to be pretty firm with them, but they understand that

I'm interested in them, but I express my,

I guess, love for them through

the mathematics.

I want them to come and work hard every day and

improve on the math.

If they can just focus on getting better at the math for a little while, then that's my gift to them.

And if that's cool to them, this is not your annual review, by the way.

This is a podcast.

Don't worry.

You get to keep your job.

I'm not worried about keeping my job.

I was looking for one when I found this one.

But in terms of my students,

I think most of them

probably think I'm a decent human being.

Heather, is he a cool teacher?

He is, yes.

They really admire him.

They look up to him.

And does he chat with them all the time?

Absolutely.

Yes, he definitely does.

Does he ever sit backwards in his chair with his arms over the back?

Yeah, real time.

He does not do that.

No, he's standing 100% of the time.

Doesn't sound that cool to me.

Heather,

you guys are married.

How long have you been married?

It will be eight years on Valentine's Day.

Oh, that's nice.

Which is also my birthday.

Happy.

Oh, I see.

Happy double anniversary.

A little bit on the nose, but I love it.

And it says here you live outside of Dallas?

We do.

Southeast of Dallas, about 100 miles.

It's a

town about 12,000, 14,000.

All right.

So we have your first and last name, and now we have your coordinates.

Good job, Mr.

R.

Heather, what do you do down there southeast of Dallas by

whatever?

We teach at the same school.

I teach high school English.

Oh, very nice.

And did you guys meet as colleagues or what?

We did.

We met at our contract signing, actually.

Also on Valentine's Day, I presume?

No, but that was...

Pretty standard in the state of Texas.

Yes.

No.

We met at the beginning of the school year signing our contract.

So we've taught together my entire teaching career, 10 years, at two different schools.

Well, this could not be more adorable.

So Heather, tell me why you you hate your husband all of a sudden.

Okay, so essentially, like I said, we've taught together 10 years

and we live in the same community in which we teach.

And so, when we...

Don't worry, I've got it.

I've got it on Google satellite right now.

I can see both of you.

Great.

Keep going.

And so, as you might imagine,

it is very difficult for us to leave our homes and

not run into either a current or a former student or a parent,

which can sometimes be a little tedious and make tasks.

They're boring and you hate your neighbors and you hate your students and everything.

I do.

He doesn't.

Oh,

candid.

No, I don't hate anyone.

It's just that I am definitely more introverted.

And I'm pretty task-oriented.

And so my goal is to go in the store and get my items and return home.

So what kind of store are we talking about here?

Like a grocery store, stationery store, sheet music?

I think no matter what kind of store it is, I just want to thank you for describing your trip there like you were teaching a robot to do it.

Give me an example of a store you go into where you and Larry are just buying your Pyanna sheet music for Bicycle Built for Two, and all of a sudden you get cornered by a student or a parent or whatever.

Like, what store are you going into?

Generally, that's going to be the big box chain stores.

Okay.

So, what happens?

Do me a little role play.

What does Larry say?

I'll be a parent, all right?

Okay.

And you be Larry.

Okay.

So you make eye contact with you're the parent or I'm the parent.

I'm the parent.

You're Larry.

I'm Larry.

Okay.

So I'm going to come on to.

Quick question.

Who am I?

Jesse,

you're head of security in this store.

Head of security.

And then Jennifer is who?

Jennifer Marmer.

Yeah.

She's an efficiency consultant that's been hired to observe checkout procedures.

Yeah, and she's got like cool but slightly stern eyeglasses and her hair's up in the fun.

That's right.

And we've all been trapped in this big box store

for five years because the Earth has become uninhabitable.

Oh, wow.

What happened?

Well, you're going to have to ask, what's the name of your favorite author again?

Justin Cronin.

Justin Cronin, because he's spinning the science fiction and fantasy tales.

I'm here in a fake court of law trying to run a role play.

So I make eye contact with you.

I walk over.

There you are.

Hey, Mr.

R.

It's me, John.

I'm Bobby's dad.

It doesn't necessarily happen like that.

All right.

Tell me how it happened.

Really what would happen is the parents or the students don't necessarily approach us

because they, I mean, they will sometimes, but they respect your privacy.

Generally speaking.

It's just that Larry doesn't respect your privacy.

Exactly.

So normally a smile and a nod would suffice, but if I'm Larry, I'm making eye contact with this person, the parent

in our example.

And so

I I will

go over to the parent, no matter what they may be engaged in, and go over, shake their hand, and proceed to go into a monologue about said students' performance in

mathematics, which is very nice.

He says lots of complimentary things.

It's never anything negative.

But he goes into, you know,

specifics about their performance and what a great kid they are and how,

you know, the student is their favorite and that sort of thing.

Wait a minute.

He says that to everyone?

Yeah, yeah.

Every parent, he's like, I just want to tell you.

He doesn't literally say that they're his favorite, but he says that they're, you know.

One of my best.

One of his, yes, that's one of his key phrases.

Boy, but he, but the thing is, he's not, he believes that.

Like, he really does view every kid as one of his best.

So

it just makes the shopping trips a little,

it slows them down.

And what do the parents say?

Like, just please leave me alone.

I'm trying to buy this cantaloupe.

No,

not everybody's like me.

I mean, they're, you know, they usually appreciate it, I think.

So, you know, I can see the value in it.

Larry, do you dispute anything that your wife Heather is saying?

Do you approach parents and students and other people you know and engage in some uh conversational jawing with them

specifically with students i

everything she said is accurate and parents of students parents of students yeah i i make an i make an effort to um

particularly if i've never met the parent i try to reach out to the parents in the beginning of the school year just via email or hopefully a phone call to say hey um your kid is uh my student i look forward to working with them i think you don't just show up in their house and go, hey.

I've done that.

You wait for them to come home and you sit in their living room until they come home.

Not that

I have knocked on doors before.

I try to reach out to them in the beginning just to say, hey, I'm going to be your kid's teacher because if things do go bad, it's nice that

you've had some contact with them beforehand.

You know, the first time you're talking to them is not what an awful thing that their child has done in your room.

This is, again, this is not your annual review.

You talking to a fake internet judge and revealing personal details about where you live and what your last name is and how your wife hates all of your students.

And,

you know, we're just getting real here for a second.

Do you go up to people in the big box

because you feel a professional obligation when you see a parent or a student to touch base with them, or do you like it?

I enjoy it, Judge, because, I mean,

you have a child.

Don't you like hearing good things about your kid?

Well, you know, Larry, I enjoy you a lot.

So if you came up to me

and started chatting me up when I was trying to buy a pallet full of Utz cheese balls or whatever,

I would enjoy a little chit chat with you.

What would you talk about with me?

It takes 45 seconds.

Judge, your daughter is in my class.

She is a great kid.

She's working hard.

She's always respectful.

She's kind to her peers.

I wish I had a hundred more students just like her.

And that's what it would be.

Thank you, Mr.

R.

First of all, I love you.

Second of all,

are you sure you don't say that to all the parents?

Because that's what I'm hearing.

I was listening to a podcast where I heard your wife say she hates me and that you tell all the parents this.

I say something like that, but the thing is, I truly mean it.

She does.

I really, truly

like

all of my students, I really, truly like like them.

So there it is.

You know what?

Nice comeback.

Nice comeback, Mr.

R.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about some of the other great shows for maximumfund.org.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

The brace short ribs, made in, made in.

The Rohan Duck Riders of Rohan, made in, made in.

That heritage pork chop that you love so much.

You got it.

It was made in, made in.

But Made In isn't just for professional chefs.

It's for home cooks, too.

And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with made-in cookware.

It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable.

uh than some of the other high-end brands we're both big fans of the carbon steel uh i have a little carbon steel skillet that my mother-in-law loves to use because cast iron is too heavy for her, but she wants that non-stick.

And I know that she can, you know, she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot.

She can use it to braise if she wants to use it to braise.

It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

And it will last a long time.

And whether it's griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware, I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be getting back to my beloved made-in entree bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable because they sell it directly to you.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made in, made in.

For full details, visit madeincookwear.com.

That's M-A-D-E-I-N Cookware.com.

Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Court is back in session.

This episode, Public Befriender.

Larry enjoys socializing with people he runs into while he's running errands.

Heather thinks it takes up too much time.

What is going on, Heather, that this bothers you so much?

How long has this dispute been going on with you guys?

It's been going on our entire marriage.

And I would say

it really is a difference in our worldview, honestly.

He grew up in southern Louisiana in a town even smaller than where we're at currently.

So, for instance, when we are driving

along our street or wherever and he sees someone walking down the road, he is going to wave at that person 100% of the time.

So it's just, he has this

idea that everyone.

Wait a minute, Heather.

Yes.

Wait a minute.

You hate waving?

Waving is bad, too?

I thought you were going to say that every time he saw someone on the street, he would pull over and go, hey, person's first name that I remember because I remember everyone's name.

How are you?

But no, he's just waving, and you're sitting there next to him going, don't wave, don't wave, you're wasting time.

I'm trying to teach this robot to grocery shop.

If we're walking somewhere, he will speak to them no matter who they are, even if they're a stranger.

But yes, with the waving specifically, it does not matter if this person is riding a bicycle and both of their hands are occupied.

If they are broken down on the side of the road and they are attempting to fix their vehicle.

I would stop and help those.

Yeah, of course.

Of course Larry would.

I've seen you wave at those people.

He just jollily sticks his hand out the window and waves at these people.

So I just think that he doesn't really pay attention to that.

What do they say in Texas about big phonies?

They're all wave, no, stop and help.

I think that's a saying, yes.

Heather, you and I are having a nice time talking.

Do you have difficulty making small talk?

You said you're introverted.

Yes, I'm terrible at chit-chat, small talk.

So, I would not approach it.

You're great at it.

You're great at it.

Not generally.

Is it that you're not good at it or you just don't want to bother with it?

Hmm.

Sometimes, you know, it can be either.

If I am on my own time, I devote a lot of time to my students, and I love my students.

But if I'm on my own free time,

I just want to handle my own business honestly right okay I understand is the only thing that's holding you in America's friendly south and keeping you from moving to America's cold and hateful northeast

that you love your husband so much yes that's the only thing

wait you're saying you would move to a less friendly place?

No, I don't know.

Maybe, probably.

What's your unfriendly dream city that you would love to move to where no one knows your name?

Moscow, St.

Petersburg.

I mean, people talk about how in New York, I've never been to New York City, but people discuss how, you know,

when you're walking down the street, that no one acknowledges your presence.

I would be okay with that.

That's fine with me.

That's awesome.

That sounds great.

It's not exactly the utopia you dream of.

Occasionally

we will greet each other if we have met before, occasionally.

And when I moved to New York, having previously lived my life in Boston,

you know, I had a friend, Charles Diggs, who had grown up in Jefferson City, Missouri.

And he talked about how you smiled, waved, and said hello to everyone you passed on the street.

Right.

Whether you knew them or not.

Right.

And

growing up in Boston, I was like,

my mind was broken in half by this information.

If someone had told me that when I was in college, I would have been like, right, but how do you know their gang affiliation before you greet them?

Yeah, because if you were to say hello to someone in Boston,

you're inviting a smack, and that's even within your own family.

But in New York, by comparison, I found to be extremely chatty and friendly.

And, you know,

that's the old cliche of the old

Brooklyn cab driver.

You've got to have some conversation going at all times.

That's still true, I think.

I don't think this is exactly where you want to live.

Though you're welcome to visit anytime and check it out.

You can't stay with me, but, you know.

Well, maybe I'll have to rethink that then.

I don't know.

I'm just, I'm not opposed to certainly greeting people that I know, but briefly and moving on.

When you're out and about on your own and you're going to the old mom and pop big box and you see the parent of a student and you're by yourself, what do you do?

Almost always I will simply wave at them and smile.

And I might, if I'm within hearing distance, I might say, hey, how are you?

And

continue on my way.

Hey,

how are you?

This is over now.

Goodbye.

Yes.

Larry, does that strike you as rude?

No, Judge.

My wife is the ultimate only child.

She is an only child, and both of her parents are...

How dare you?

How dare you?

I know you're an only child.

I'm not assailing only children.

I'm saying my wife, listen, my wife, she's- As an only child, how can I even believe there are other only children in the world?

I know.

I am the only one and the best.

It gets better.

My wife, both of her parents are only children.

She has no cousins, no aunts, no uncles, no anything.

Right.

Yeah, she has books.

Yeah, exactly.

And she had cats.

She was like, she was born an old woman, basically.

Yes, just like all only children.

And I adore that.

She was basically raised in a Skinner box full of fantasy novels.

That is exactly right.

And so, and

she talked about, you know,

not really talking with

the parents.

She doesn't really talk with the students.

In the hallway, she walks at

Usain Bolt sprint speed so that people will think that she's in a hurry, so they won't dare stop her.

Well, all right, but you're always bringing this back down to, you know, like professional obligation.

Maybe she's just trying to maintain an appropriate professional distance.

She finds it difficult to engage in,

it makes her uncomfortable.

She doesn't do the casual contact very well.

She has some deep, meaningful friendships with a few people, but the casual interaction is a difficult thing for her to do.

Thus, she avoids it.

Do you see this as a fault that she needs to fix?

Fault to fix, sir.

That's my question.

Fault to fix.

And as you answer this question, I want you to bear in mind:

podcast audiences are known for being extroverted.

Yeah.

I don't see it as a fault to fix.

It's just not her style.

Yeah,

I know that it's too deep.

It's not something that's going to be fixed.

So I embrace that about her.

Yeah, you love her, right?

And I would imagine every now and then she waves at you fondly

occasionally yes on on the good days so obviously you guys have different styles

boy oh boy

i like that i've now i feel like i'm a preacher

obviously you guys have different styles and

heather to me it seems like the primary complaint is that your husband larry is wasting wasting your time in the store.

Can you give me an example

of a time when there were real damages caused by Larry's ceaseless chit-chatting with the people in the store?

Like, you guys were trying to get some cornflakes or whatever, or, you know, you got to get a quick dinner back because you have kids, right?

We do.

Right.

And all of a sudden, you know, what should have been a 20-minute trip has now turned into a five-hour trip, and your kids have fainted from malnutrition by the time you got home or any other thing like that.

Unfortunately, I cannot give you an example in which it has been truly detrimental or caused any real damages.

No.

Externally.

Externally, I mean.

Do you know what I mean?

Yes, I think so.

Internally, you're damaged because your husband

is not respecting the fact that you want to get on with your life.

Correct.

Yes.

And how does it make you feel

when you're tapping your toes there and he's going on and on with the students' parents or whatever?

It's

a moderate annoyance.

I mean, it's nothing I get truly upset about.

Oh, there's no fight at all.

It was just something you cooked up in order to get on a podcast.

You could buzz market this Rice Professor's Fantasy trilogy.

I just don't want him to think that I am truly upset, mad,

mad about it, but

it is an inconvenience.

I will put it that way.

I do value efficiency and using my time wisely.

And so

anything that slows and honestly, I do see social interaction as as mostly inefficient and wasting of you know of my time.

That's why you're training the robots to shop at the supermarket because you are also a robot.

This interaction is inefficient.

Has there ever been a time when Larry has hit not one, not two, but upwards of three conversations at one big box stop?

Oh, sure.

Probably.

Oh, yes.

I'm certain of that.

Yes.

Yeah, for sure.

Larry, what's like sort of the av average?

That's my suite de breve for average.

I'm going to say it's a right skewed distribution, but the average is 2.7.

2.7?

Oh, wow.

Just because

I'm always forgetting and always wondering, what's the difference between a mean and an average and a median?

Okay, mean and average are basically synonyms.

They're, you know, what adding together and dividing by the number of numbers.

Got it.

Median is strictly the middle number if you place them in order.

Yeah.

All right.

What's a right-skewed distribution?

A right-skewed distribution would be one where most of the observations are on the low end and occasionally you get some on the high end.

Like if you looked at salaries, for instance, you know, most people are going to be around one area and then a few would have very large ones.

In this case, most of the time I'm going to be around one or two encounters, three encounters, but occasionally it might be seven, eight, or nine where I'm.

Oh, my God.

If I were shopping big box with you, Larry, and you, and you hit up nine convos,

I would have gone home.

I would have just pulled in a car.

That entire thing will be less than,

a typical one will be less than one minute.

I presume you have a spreadsheet to back this up.

You can keep in your stats.

As a matter of fact, no, I don't.

It's probably a dot plot somewhere, but I probably do have some data somewhere to support that.

Did you just say there's probably a dot plot somewhere?

Yeah, I did.

That's, yeah.

How is that different from a scatter graph?

And how is that, in turn, different from scattergories?

A dot plot is one variable data, which would be like this, and a scatter plot would be two variable data like time spent studying in grades.

You know, how you could look at how two variables respond to each other.

Here it would just be number of encounters.

That's one variable, one thing that you're counting.

Do you agree with the right-skew distribution average of 2.7 encounters per big box visit, Heather?

Does that feel about right to you, or does that feel low or high?

I would say that's pretty accurate, yes.

That's pretty accurate.

Well, you know, you put this judge in an interesting position because on the one hand,

I have to consider finding in favor of Heather and shutting this down

or at least setting a limit.

But on the other hand, I feel like letting this experiment run, but do some really heavy statistical analysis.

I like it.

Like ordering you to have a stopwatch with you.

I like it.

I just have a couple more questions to ask before I go into the walk-in freezer of my big box chambers and shop for some frozen cow halves.

Heather, when he's hitting up these 2.7 convos in a visit,

are you forced to chat with the other people too?

Or what do you do with your lost time in that moment?

Sometimes I am kind of roped into the conversation, particularly if it's a student that we share.

So I would feel very awkward if I didn't participate and throw in some commentary.

So he'll say something like, this is one of the best students I've got.

And then you'll say, I also have him.

That's about the size of it, yes.

Okay, so sometimes you feel roped in, and what if you don't feel roped in?

Sometimes I'll just continue shopping and leave him standing there,

or sometimes I'll just wait idly by.

I don't think you'd be here unless you found both of those imperfect solutions to your husband's behavior.

So what would you like me to order if I find in your favor?

So,

I'm certainly not asking for him to cease having these interactions with people,

but I would like for him to perhaps

cut them down substantially.

I don't know how he picks and chooses those, but

you know

if the average is two, what, 2.5 to 3, then maybe just pick out one per big box chain store visit.

You want him to choose winners and losers in the conversation game?

Well, perhaps.

Yes.

Larry, your wife just told me,

I know she said certain words, but I read between the lines.

Your wife just told me that she wants you to wear a handmade-style hat that blocks out all of your peripheral vision so that you can only see directly in front of you and no one can gaze upon your face.

Right.

So that you can never speak to another human again and to make it illegal for you to read.

What would you have me order if I were to find in your favor?

I mean, because obviously she's uncomfortable with your behavior.

How do you respond to her discomfort?

How does that make you feel?

I do take my wife's feelings into account whenever I

do things.

I think it's...

Jesse Thorne, for the record, mark that down as the first time a husband has ever said that on the George John Hudson podcast.

And not only did he say it, I honestly think he means it.

So I'll allow it.

I'm worried you interrupted him in the middle of the sentence, and the second half of the sentence will be, however, I have an elaborate point system that I'd like to explain now.

No,

no, I don't.

I think we are just fundamentally different with

how we view our fellow man.

My wife sees other people as a mild inconvenience to the things that she needs to get done.

And I

am probably maybe a little too gregarious and I want to

reach out and

say hi and hopefully bring a little joy into your life.

Going to whatever the store is and getting whatever the thing that I'm getting, that to me is not nearly as important, not nearly as meaningful as some encounter I may have with a person and something I might say about their kid that just might

make their life better for a little while.

That is not as important as getting the eggs or the milk or whatever.

So, if what am I asking for?

I'm asking, I hope that my wife understands that

I'm trying,

I won't even say trying to lift people up.

I just, I enjoy talking with other people.

And if a

you would rather starve than not get your chats in.

That's it.

You have, you have pinned it down.

But basically what you're saying is you don't want

no change of behavior.

If I find in your favor, would you stay the same?

Status quo is a judgment in my favor.

Status quo is a judgment in Larry's favor.

One last question, Heather.

I enjoy talking to your husband.

You know,

I have something of the gift of gab,

but I'm curious about whether, in observing him cornering these parents and students,

whether you've ever seen a situation where they're not enjoying it, that they're sort of like you, and they're kind of like, please end this human interaction.

Stop talking and being nice.

I would say occasionally,

particularly with former students,

they might feel a little bit, you know, like if they haven't seen us in a while, they might feel a little uncomfortable and not just not know how to respond.

Like he'll ask what they're doing now,

and they might think that what they're doing isn't impressive enough,

you know, and so they might feel a little uncomfortable about that, perhaps.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into that walk-in freezer now.

I'm putting on my little vest in order to not freeze to death, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Heather, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

I'm moderately confident.

I think that Judge John is, you know, I know he's an only child as well, and he's married to a teacher, so perhaps that will

give me some increased empathy for my plight, perhaps.

Larry, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

Better than the Giants' chances of making the NLCS this year.

Wait, so you're taunting me now?

That's what this is about?

God.

How's the whatever team you like doing?

Oh, probably well.

Poorly.

No, I'm a Rangers fan, so while we had a better year than the Giants,

of course, I'm a Rangers fan, so there you go.

I'm throwing myself at your mercy because the Giants did defeat the Rangers in the World Series a few years ago, so you have me there.

The Rangers are also the team that stole my childhood hero away from the Giants, William Neusler-Clark.

Hey, it's Judge Sean Hodgman just poking in from my chambers to ask, what the hell's going on here?

Why have you taken my podcast over and turned it into a sports talk?

Ha ha, sports nerds rules, nerd nerds, drool.

We'll find out what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's Learn Everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lawrence.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom to present the winners of the 2017 Major League Baseball World Series.

It's quite an honor to have this trophy to hand over to a playing team, especially since

I don't know who won.

So one of you guys is going to get it,

and I guess I'll choose.

No, Larry and Heather, you may be seated.

Larry, you would think that Heather might have an advantage here because we're both only children.

But Larry, you misunderstand two things,

which is that only children don't believe that other only children exist.

And therefore, Heather is obviously a fantasy, worthy of Justin Cronin,

fantasy author and official sponsor of this podcast.

And you also misjudge because

I am an extrovert.

I have a podcast.

I like talking to people.

That's why I do this podcast.

I love John,

especially when I don't have to see them, and it is within my rights to tell them to shut up when they're boring me, which is the way this power structure is arranged for my amusement.

But in general, I am in a situation that is not dissimilar from yours in that I, even though I am an only child,

I enjoy social contact, I enjoy chatting with people, and my wife is much more introverted than I am in terms of casual chatting.

She has several very close friends, and she'll enjoy talking to them, even if she runs into them on the street.

But in terms of casual hellos and whatnots, she would rather move on with her life with robotic efficiency.

And when I speak of my wife, I am speaking, of course, of my wife, Bridget Fonda, the famous actress who is so introverted, she hasn't worked in a long time, and we all miss her very much.

My real-life wife is a teacher.

Thank you both for what you do is one of those things that teachers always hear all the time to the point that it is meaningless, almost to the point of the same sort of meaningless, which is that your child is one of my favorite students.

An empty platitude.

But I do mean it.

I do mean it.

I also know from observing her experience that teaching is theater, right?

When you are in the classroom and you are doing your job, you are performing.

And as a performer, I respect

how when the curtain has called and the show is over, that you want to just walk down the hall.

and have some time to yourself and not interact with the audience any further.

Different performers are different in this way.

Some enjoy the meet and greet after the show, and I do because I am one of these gregarious people.

And some just want to walk right off the stage and get into their cars and drive right to the airport and go away as quickly as possible.

And both attitudes are reasonable and correct.

It is fine to do it either way.

And where I find the crux of this dispute is not

so much that Larry is over-gregarious,

but that

Heather feels a social pressure and an internal pressure

to feel

obliged to take part in some of this meaningless conversation with these faceless mannequins that are her student body

and their parents,

and isn't willing to simply walk away and do her own thing.

When I walk down the street in New York City,

it is not the antisocial paradise that you imagine it to be, Heather.

People say, Hi, we live in a neighborhood, we know our neighbors,

we wave at them,

we might stop and chat with them,

if they have been in a car accident, we might actually

stoop to help them one time out of twenty.

And

it can be, even for a gregarious, outgoing feller like me, it can be a bother if you're trying to get somewhere and to be stopped along the way.

You know that I am a fan of the television show I Claudius.

And one of the greatest social lessons I ever learned was from Brian Blessed's performance of the Emperor Augustus in I Claudius,

the man whom everyone wanted to talk to because he was the Emperor of Rome, and who had an obligation to speak to these people, even when he didn't particularly feel like it.

And he would be polite and listen to them a little bit and talk to them a little bit, and then he would smile and then he would say, We'll talk more later, and then walk away.

It was the greatest, the most gracious brush off ever devised because it leaves everyone feeling good.

And so without using those exact words, because people would realize it, I learned from that moment that there are times when it is appropriate to stop the conversation in respect of your own time.

And this is especially true if you are on the subway and you are reading a book.

and someone comes up to you and you know them from the neighborhood and they start talking to you.

It is okay to say, it's really nice to see you, but this is my only time that I get to read, so I hope you won't mind if I just continue reading.

And if they do mind, they're monsters, but they won't mind because they're human.

Laying down that line of where the conversation stops in a casual setting is different for everybody.

Obviously, you know, because you have different places where you draw the line.

And

what I would encourage you to do, Heather,

is to determine where your line is, draw it, and do not shy away from drawing it.

Now, I'm not saying you should go around saying, we'll talk more later in a Brian-blessed British accent because that would be weird and that would be a lie, as insincere as your husband telling every parent that parent students are his favorite.

But instead,

when your husband gets into the 2.7th conversation of that evening,

even if it's a parent of a student that you have or a student that you have, it is okay for you to say, it's nice to see you, Bobby, or Sally, or mother or father of Bobby or Sally.

I'm going to go look at Brussels sprouts now.

You guys talk while I go get what needs to be done in this life to move things forward.

And walk away.

Just walk away.

Walk away from it.

Enjoy the pleasant alone time of an only child wandering through a store that has otherwise been robbed of you by being married to another human.

First mistake.

Now,

status quo is not enough here

because

you have to pay a price, Larry,

for wasting your wife's time with your warm human interactions with the members of your community.

And I totally want to see some dot plots on this.

Okay.

So

when you engage in a convo, I want you to carry a stopwatch with you

or find some other way to discreetly time your interaction and obviously make a record of the number of interactions

and keep it to two.

Obviously, they're going to be outliers.

This is a right-skewing distribution.

Indeed.

But I feel like two convos,

if it gets above 2.7, you've got to dial it back a little bit.

Fair enough.

And Heather, I want you to have a policy

with yourself and with your husband,

which is that you're not going to take part in any of this foolishness and you're not going to be ashamed of it.

And no one in the school is going to blame you if Larry starts chatting over in the produce aisle and you say politely hello and goodbye and take a walk over to the dry goods aisle or whatever

because you already got a rep for walking through the hallways in school and not talking to anybody.

Everyone knows

Heather doesn't talk.

Yes.

Because Heather doesn't talk.

And you won't feel guilty about it, and I know that Larry won't make you feel guilty about it.

And you don't have to keep track of how long his conversations are, because I've ordered him to do that scientifically.

But if you start feeling that it's going on too long,

You have the right to text him and say wrap it up

Because we got to get going and when if you get a text saying wrap it up, you have to say your own version of we'll talk more later, Larry, and wrap it up.

It's rare that this court will essentially rule a compromise and I don't like it.

So I am going to find in one person's favors.

But these are the orders.

These are the processes that I am ordering be put into place for this problem.

to disappear.

But that said, this is a court of fake internet law.

I can't just say everybody wins.

I have to say one person loses.

As my ruling is closer to the status quo than no,

officially and in the books, I find in favor of Larry.

Yes.

Go chat it up, Larry.

And Heather,

you walk away.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Can we infer, Larry, from your reaction that you're happy about this verdict?

I am indeed.

Victory is sweet.

How do you think it will feel the first time that you choose the parent of a child who you've recently met over your own wife?

It won't even occur to me in that context.

I'm just going to continue doing what I do.

You'll get that kind of tunnel blindness that you get whenever you spot potential new social interactions.

That is exactly right.

Heather, how are you feeling?

I feel empowered.

I have permission to walk away and not participate and be by myself.

So I feel great.

Do you think that you could possibly install in the grocery store a nice reading chair like they have outside the women's changing room in a department store for husbands to sit in?

I never thought about that, but that is a fantastic idea.

That could be revolutionary.

Well, Well, Heather, Larry, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Well, that's another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

Before we get to some swift justice, we want to thank Tim Malos for naming this week's episode Public Befriender.

If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out a call for submissions there.

If you want to chat about the show, you can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets.

Hashtag J J H O.

You can also join us in the Maximum Fund group on Facebook, and there are awesome local Max Fund groups for you pretty much no matter where you live.

You can also join us on Reddit, maximumfund.reddit.com.

This week's episode recorded by Drew Hall at Rosewood Studios in Tyler, Texas, our producer, the illustrious Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes disputes with a quick judgment.

Here's something from Dave.

My mom and I constantly argue about whether you can say the word funner.

Is it only acceptable to say more fun?

Yes, it is only acceptable to say more fun.

I'm glad, Dave, that you hid which one of you says the horrible word funner.

Your mom or you.

So one of you should feel tremendous shame and the other should feel righteous self-congratulation, which is always more fun than the other.

If me and Jordan had made that decision, it would have been funner.

I know, I know, and I'm not even going to talk about how you just said me and Jordan.

That's like your saying me and Jordan

does the same thing to me as my making a reference to New England does to you.

And yet it's always funner when we tease each other.

That's about it for this week's episode.

You can submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash jjho or email us at hodgman at maximumfun.org.

John, is there such a thing as a case too big or small for the Judge John Hodgman courtroom?

No case too big nor too small.

We reads them all.

Judge Hodgman, I'm on the fence about submitting my case.

I'm not sure whether it would be good for the show.

Should I keep it to myself?

Here's an idea.

Let me be the judge.

Send it right to me, and I'll read it and I will respond or move it along into the system so that you may be properly judged here on the podcast or in the pages of the New York Times or on the docket or wherever it may be.

MaximumFund.org/slash JJ H O or Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That is all.

MaximumFund.org.

Comedy and culture.

Artist-owned.

Listener-supported.