Little Weirdsies

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

We're in chambers this week, clearing the docket.

With me, as always, the man, the myth, the legend, the one in the robe, Judge John Hodgman.

Hi, John.

Yep, a lot of people do think that I am a myth.

That's why there is a whole section devoted to me in the International Museum of Cryptozoology in Portland, Maine, owned by Lauren Coleman.

Look for it

in the former factory or maybe warehouse that has now been transformed into a brewery, a chicken shack, and a cryptozoology museum, all there in Portland, Maine.

You're welcome, Lauren.

I hear, Judge Hodgman, I don't know if this is true, that Rob Lowe and his sons run into you in the woods in their new television program, and then you get in a fight.

No, if I were to ever run into Rob Lowe and his sons in the woods, even as a Sasquatch, I would fall in love with Rob Lowe.

That's

the only possible response to a human interaction with Rob Lowe.

Well, we have a special guest who is absolutely concrete, not mythical, an actual human being here to help us through these cases.

She's the writer and editor of NPR's entertainment blog, Monkey Sea.

She's also the host of pop culture happy hour, Linda Holmes.

Hello, Linda.

Hello, Jesse.

Hello, Your Honor.

And Linda, I have seen pictures on Twitter of the manuscript for a novel.

That is true.

I did complete that, and we will have news hopefully at some point that I can share.

Ooh, well, let's kick things off with some news from Dan.

Dan writes, my wife and I have a dispute about whether drinking water gets old.

She won't drink last night's glass of water.

She says it's old.

To me, room temperature, old water, and right from the tap water are the same.

She will, however, drink bottled water that has been in the car unopened for weeks.

I know there's some gas exchange with open containers, especially with you around town, but I feel her aversion is psychological, not chemical.

I would like you to order my wife to not order me to go get her fresh water.

Another fight between a husband and wife.

Linda, you listen to this podcast.

Have you ever heard such a thing?

I have heard such a thing before.

It is true.

And very often I think to myself, singlehood is not a bad thing.

No, it's fantastic.

You're doing your water your way.

It's true.

It's true.

Linda, you've heard Dan's complaint about his wife here.

Whose side do you take?

Who's right?

Who's wrong, in your opinion?

If this were Dan's wife saying, I prefer to get myself a fresh glass of water and my husband makes fun of me because he says it's the same, please tell my husband to stop making fun of me, I would be for her.

but in this case he is suggesting that she wants him to go get her a glass of water that is fresh and different water and my reaction to that is there is a standard of rationality that you have to meet if you want to go up and get a glass of water for yourself and there is a standard of rationality that you have to meet if you want somebody else to get you a glass of water i believe she does not meet that heightened standard of stricter scrutiny and therefore

uh you know she can get the water herself but this is one of the reasons to live alone is you can get your own glass of water and indulge all your own little weirdsies that you have

without anybody standing in, as we say, judgment.

Linda, when you were a practicing attorney, did you ever have occasion in a brief, perhaps, to use the phrase little weirdsies?

I did not, and I wish I had.

I should have.

I should have.

Little weirdsies, that's probably a good t-shirt.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, what's your weigh in on this?

Well, I think that while it is a specious argument intended as a distraction from the main issue, I am bothered by her drinking water in plastic bottles that have been rolling around in the car for weeks.

Yes.

Because

while there is some cloudiness, no pun intended, around the question of to what extent chemicals leaching into water is a problem for our health, the one thing that people do seem to agree on who know about such things, including scientists, is that there is some concern about the plastics used in disposable water when they are left for a long time in heated environments, such as the interiors of cars.

Like that is the one thing that they say, like BPA-free water bottles, they're like, yeah, maybe, probably.

We don't know 100% yet, I think.

But with disposable water bottles in heated environments, it's like why you're not supposed to microwave

wet food in disposable Tupperwares.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

They also taste bad.

You can taste the mutations.

Yeah, it does taste bad.

Yeah.

It definitely tastes bad.

So that bothers me.

But that left aside, I'm willing to buy into

Linda's distinction between the lower and higher standards of weirdsies

in that while I would be upset with this man for complaining to his wife about this or mocking his wife about this, a moderately reasonable position, but not completely reasonable position.

I do think it's a little weird for

him to have to replace a glass of water that's sitting in front of her to get her a new glass of water.

But that said, I don't like room temperature water, and I do in my head sometimes think maybe it gets dusty.

All right, we are actually in the state of Maine where the Cryptozoology Museum is located, but we are in the studios of W-E-R-U-F-M here in Orland, Maine with guest engineer Joel Mann.

Joel, you're a tall drink of water.

In your traditional taciturn way, will you tell me in one word, do you side with Dan or wife?

I have to go with Dan.

Dan.

I don't even remember what Dan wanted.

Oh, right.

Stop.

He doesn't want to be ordered to get his wife a fresh glass of water.

All right, listen to this.

Jesse Thorne, you know what you are?

What am I?

Fresh.

You dress fresh.

You act fresh.

You rock fresh.

Fresh is good, right, Jesse?

Absolutely.

You know what I would never say about you?

What's that?

That Jesse Thorne, he's last night's glass of water.

That's what the entertainment industry says about me.

I know that that's intrinsically gross.

And Dan, I don't know what you're talking about regarding gas exchange.

Also gross, but the reason that your wife will drink old bottled water, even though it's probably killing her, is that it's covered up.

So she knows, unlike the water on her bedside, no dust has fallen into it, as Jesse Thorne suggested as a concern.

And my great concern,

she knows that there are no night moths that have fallen into her water before she has a drink.

That said, I side both with my bailiff and my expert, Linda Holmes, and against my guest engineer, Joel Mann,

and say that, yes, it is inappropriate for Dan to make fun of his wife's little weirdsies.

But as it is in the Judge John Hodgman home, as it shall be in the rest of the world, all kids get their own glasses of water.

I've gotten you enough glasses of water already.

It's not that hard.

Get up there and get your own fresh bottle of water or a glass of water or whatever it is.

And here's my suggestion for Dan's wife.

I'm not going to name a brand, but I found one.

You know, I'm going to say it.

Yeti.

Those Yeti coolers, Joel.

They're all over the place up here in Maine, right?

That's right, Judge.

That's right.

Yeti coolers.

Everyone has them.

I decided to break down and get one.

It's fantastic.

I also got a Yeti insulated thermos mug, and it's covered.

You put some ice water in there.

You cover it up.

You're going to have cold.

delicious water all night long and no night moths.

So that's just one for free, Yeti.

You already got my money, but send send me some Yetis.

Can I put some Moxie in my Yeti?

You can chill some Moxie in your Yeti, and I love them because...

Objection, Your Honor.

Pandering.

Pandering to the judge.

Linda Holmes is not on trial here.

That's what I keep telling everybody.

The only thing on trial here is Yeti's willingness to give us some free swag.

And I hope that they do not come out guilty on this one.

If Eli Roth, the famous low-budget horror film director and and producer, is listening.

I've got a pitch for you.

I'm not going to give you the whole thing on the air.

You can email me.

I'll just say it's called Gas Exchange.

Here's something from art.

My daughter Sally has tried to no avail to bring together her high school friends who have the surnames Rice and Bean.

From what I've heard, they do indeed like each other, but so far there's been no movement on the relationship front.

I've grown tired of eavesdropping on their conversations while I carpool.

Please order these teens to go out so that we can get the ball rolling on the future wedding of rice and bean.

Oh, man.

You have practitioned law.

Mm-hmm.

Do I have any standing to order teenagers to date?

Is that something that is allowable under the U.S.

Constitution?

I don't think you do have standing to order teenagers to date.

Moreover, the bigger issue is: I don't think this parent has any standing to bring this case as, in order to have standing, you basically have to have some sort of stakes on the line for yourself.

If I am understanding this correctly,

the child of the parent wants to meddle in the friend's lives, and now the parent wants to meddle in the meddling of the child.

And I, look, I like a complete protein.

I think we all do.

But

I still think

rice and bean have to be left to their own devices.

Hold on, Linda.

I am an adult.

We are talking about teens.

Yes.

I can tell teens to do anything.

It's my right as an adult.

No.

It's not your right as an adult.

Also, it won't work.

You got to respect the fact that rice and beans.

What do these teens think?

That they're going to live forever?

You know, you know what they're going to do?

Eventually, they're going to find the perfect thing to do together.

You know what it is?

Salsa dancing.

I could not hear that joke because you were already laughing at your own.

Sorry, sorry.

It's terrible.

What was it?

Say it again.

So I order you to say it again.

I will say it again.

Salsa dancing.

Salsa dancing.

Are these kids really named Rice and Bean?

Do I understand that?

It appears so.

I just presume that that was a pseudonym because we didn't want to reveal teenage names on the podcast.

It appears that they're actually named Rice and Bean, but we can just assume those are pseudonyms.

That's also fine.

Well, I want to know what the truth is.

Bailiff Jesse, are their last names actually Rice and Bean?

Yes, they have distinctive and distinctively post-millennial first names, which have been included in the letter but redacted for purposes of anonymity,

that are so alarmingly particular that there is no way that these names are made up.

Got it.

It's Condoleezza Rice and Orson Bean.

That

is a dating show that I would like to see.

Me too.

I just assumed that the bean was LL bean or ladies love bean.

Yes.

Hey, Linda Holmes, you enjoy puns and plays on words?

I do.

This is going to be another buzz marketing up here, Joel.

I guess I got to support my local businesses, but guess what the name of the Mexican restaurant in Sedgwick, Maine is called.

Oh, you got to tell me.

Okay, here it is.

LL Freejoles.

And the L's are EL, right?

Right, of course.

It's the, the beans.

Grammatically incorrect.

It's a play on LL Bean, the famous Maine outfitting organization.

I like it.

All right, here's what's what.

The restaurateur in New York City, where I normally live, when I clean myself up and go back to civilization, I'm going to go have some free holes

at the knee of Kenny Shopson of Shopson's.

I don't even, just called Shopson's now.

I don't know what used to be Shopson's general store, now it's just Shopson's.

Legendary, improvisational, coolinarian, and professional, foul-mouthed, cantankerous, wise soul, gave me and my wife some two pieces of the best

parenting advice I've ever received.

And one was that you have to allow your kids to have a private life, especially as they transition into adolescence.

You have to let them leave your site, not just in real life, but sort of emotionally too.

Even though it's very, very, very challenging to do that, to acknowledge that A, your children are going to have an emotional life that does not take you into consideration whatsoever, which was very, very challenging for me as a narcissist-only child to accept.

But they have to.

They have to get away from you.

And then the other piece of advice, and this is a family-friendly podcast, but at the same time, I must do honor to the loquacious Kenny Shopson and authentically report that he told us to shut the f up.

If you want kids to talk to you, stop talking.

We can bleep it out.

You can figure it out yourself, children, what I'm talking about.

Kids, I'll tell you what, Bail Jesse Thorn, teens these days, they know all the swear words.

They don't need Kenny Shopson to teach them anymore.

So, in any case, yeah, art, Linda Holmes is absolutely right.

Art, stay out of your teenage daughter's and her friends' loves' lives.

And stop eavesdropping while you're driving them around.

You should be preparing for later weird daddy by simply spacing out and thinking about movies you saw when you were a kid.

Enjoy that private mental space on your own.

Here's my message for teens.

You think you're indestructible?

You're not.

Teens.

That said, now that I know that their names are actually Rice and Bean,

they do have to go on at least one date.

And I don't care whether I have standing or authority or whatever.

It's my fake court.

It's my fake rules.

And the rules is Rice and Bean.

Go out and have dinner together, you guys.

Pick a nice non-chain restaurant

and and have dinner and take a picture of yourselves.

And if you send it into our new Instagram account, instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman, we'll post it and it'll be adorable.

And I'll send you something from my office.

Rice and bean, you have been ordered.

Don't fall, you don't have to fall in love.

If it happens, I'm not going to stop it.

But go out on at least one date at a place of your choosing.

And I'll pay.

You know what?

I'll pay.

I'll pick up the tab.

And that's out of my own pocket, Jesse.

Not the Judge John Hodgman safe that you have over there at maximumfund.org.

My own pocket.

I'll PayPal you guys.

Go out to dinner.

Send me the receipt.

I'll PayPal it.

Look, now I'm buzz marketing PayPal.

Maybe I'll Venmo.

I'm not, look,

I'll get it to you.

I think teens send money with Snapchat.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'll Instagram story you some money back.

And we'll have something for Instagram, and I'll send you something for my office as well.

So get on it, Ryzen Bean.

We're going to take a quick break.

More items on the docket and more with our pal Linda Holmes coming up in just a minute on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org/slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org/slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

This week, we're clearing the docket with our guest and deputy judge, Linda Holmes.

Linda, is that the highest rank you achieved in the legal profession?

It is.

I'm enjoying.

I've got the short robe.

I've got the knee-length robe.

That's junior.

Yeah,

Hodgman's got three stripes on one arm and six stripes on the other arm because he saw two productions of the Pirates of Penzance or whatever that was about.

A great William Rehnquist sub-reference.

I really appreciate that.

Thank you very much.

Here's a letter from Kim.

I convinced my husband to switch to deodorant from antiperspirant for health and laundry reasons.

Because the brand I use is imported and slightly pricey, he decided it made economic sense for us to share the same stick.

The issue is that he winds the deodorant up too high, which leads to premature cracking and breaking.

He also forces the stick to conform to the shape of his armpit instead of adjusting the angle and stroke of his application.

I ask the judge to order him to raise the level of the deodorant no higher than my preset height.

All right.

Well, since I am still here in coastal Maine, I have no idea.

I have forgotten what deodorant is.

We just rub some clamshells under our pits and get on about our day.

So I'm going to defer to your wisdoms first,

Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

I mean, is there anything defensible about this guy stealing his wife's deodorant and then wrecking it with his pits?

There's nothing defensible about this entire situation.

This entire arrangement is indefensible.

The fact is

that

whether or not the deodorant is imported is irrelevant.

Do they lack the capital to purchase two sticks of deodorant?

Because the running costs will be the same.

Deodorant is fungible.

Yeah, you don't consume less deodorant by sharing one stick of deodorant.

You just use it twice as fast.

That's the fundamental building block on which this whole question is built.

And it's a cracked building block.

It does not make sense.

Yeah, I agree.

This is disgusting.

This is terrible.

So the thing is, so everybody's got their weirdsies, right?

We've already established weirdsies are real.

I am a person who really would not want to use another person's deodorant stick.

That sounds gross to me.

I understand they're married.

They're probably touching more intimately than deodorant sticks.

However, still gross.

They could just get two.

How expensive could it be that it strains their capital acquisitions budget to acquire a second one?

Well, like, do they have to take out a home equity loan?

And also, I am trying to understand

when

writer of the letter says, my husband forces the deodorant to conform to the shape of his armpit.

What are you doing with this?

Is it like Superman turning coal into diamonds?

What are you doing with this deodorant stick?

You just rub it on there.

You're not supposed to be like

shaping anything.

You're not a lathe for your deodorant.

I don't know.

Well, you know, on the one hand, hang on, I'll change that.

On the one pit, you make some very compelling points.

It's weird that they're sharing.

It seems spiteful to me that this dude, after Kim has pressured him to give up antiperspirant, that now he's like, okay, I'll do it, but I'm going to take your thing and I'm going to wreck it.

I'm going to wreck it with my pits.

That seems like there's something else going on under the surface.

And then I think that it is intrinsically gross that they...

Look, I'm not going to lie to you.

I've used other other people's deodorant before in a pinch,

primarily someone I live with, but it's a private application to a private part of your body.

I consider pits to be private parts.

Yet under the other armpit, it's hard for me to really determine this.

I think I need some more evidence.

So, Kim, here's what I'm going to suggest you do.

Take the deodorant that has been reshaped by your husband's armpit and use it as a mold, as a reverse cast to create

a sculpture, a perfect replica of your husband's armpit, and send it to the court and I will stare into that abyss.

And if I don't become the abyss, I think I will have some insight enough to judge.

But in the meantime, I'm ordering a temporary order to, yeah, buy two, buy two of these things if he's going to use it.

Look, people have make their own budgets and people struggle with money in their own way, but sometimes the argument like we just can't afford it, means I don't want to confront the fact that my husband is a spiteful jerk.

Be straightforward,

stop being a spiteful jerk, order two of these

incredibly.

Where do you think they're from, Jesse?

Italy?

Where do you think this deodorant is coming from?

Imported deodorant.

It's important.

It's not like there are deodorant tariffs.

This isn't blue jeans in Russia in 1978.

And I don't really think of there as being like

the best deodorant regions.

Like

it's not a French grape.

I only use Pyrenees

deodorant.

Yeah, but I will say I think the judge raises a good point, which is that if you've always wanted to know how to get a plaster cast of your husband's armpit, we have now determined how you would go about doing that.

Yeah.

So we need a cast of the pit.

And then in the meantime, temporary order, buy two of these things and keep one for yourself or just hide yours and let him do do whatever he's going to do.

Here's something from Alexi.

My partner and I were invited to a neighbor's potluck dinner.

My partner wanted to bring some sort of dip.

I was against the idea.

I believe it's improper to bring dip to a potluck.

A potluck is meant to be a buffet in which each attendee brings a substantial food item, ideally an entree or a main course.

But appetizers and desserts are welcome in addition.

Also, since these are our neighbors who we see often, we need to represent ourselves better than, oh, that couple who brought French onion dip and a bag of potato chips to the potluck.

So, Judge, I ask you, is it okay to bring dip to a potluck meal?

Well, you may ask me, but I'm going to ask Linda Holmes first.

Is it okay to bring dip to a potluck dinner?

Your opinion?

I think there are variations of dip that might be okay.

If you're making like a lovely baked artichoke dip, for example.

you're stealing the words out of my mouth.

I think that would be okay.

What you can't do is bring a dip because

you don't want to put any effort, thought, or contribution of any kind into what you are bringing to the potluck.

If you are bringing a dip to the potluck because you want to be in and out of the safeway in five minutes, then it will show in what you're bringing to the potluck.

But I am not necessarily against bringing appetizers or desserts or salads in lieu of bringing a main course for the simple reason that if you've ever been to a potluck with like 12 people, you know that if there are 12 entrees, everybody is going to bring home a vast amount of what they made and the food will not get eaten.

Whereas if, you know, a few people bring entrees, a few people bring an appetizer, a couple people bring brownies and cookies or whatever, then you wind up with a...

nice balanced spread where the food gets eaten and everyone is happy.

But that does require sometimes a little bit of planning on the part of the host.

Maybe you just

got to manipulate the system.

Right.

You got to find certain people.

Right.

You say to everybody, like, hey, could you bring a salad?

Could you bring a something?

Or you just say to the host, hey, is it okay if I bring an appetizer?

And if they say yes, then you're fine.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being the couple who brought chips and dip, but I do think you have to watch out for being the couple who brings chips and dip, if that makes sense.

Oh, yeah.

And I think there's, I think, a sub-question you could ask, and one that I would ask of Alexi, were Alexi here, how many layers in this dip?

Exactly.

I say five layers or more.

He's not standard.

A six-layer dip, a seven-layer dip, you're great.

A four-layer dip, come on, let's get guacamole in there.

Linda, you're an avid baker.

Have you ever brought baked goods to a potluck?

Most definitely.

I often bring brownies to my friend Stephen Thompson's Super Bowl party slash friend and co-host on Pop Culture Happy Hour.

Stephen has an annual Super Bowl party/slash fried chicken eating contest.

Wow.

To which I usually bring possibly brownies and also a little thing where you make little corn dog little muffins and then you put little pieces of hot dog in them.

They're like little corn dog mini muffins.

They're very good.

And nobody has ever been unhappy that they weren't entrees.

Well, they're too busy.

Oh, and I have one more piece of fried chicken eating contest.

And I have one more piece of advice about Potlucks, which is do not be the vegan who brings the vegan food that you won't eat and then eats all the chicken wings.

That sounds like a personal experience.

You sound like you're airing a beef more than giving advice.

I was raised around Quakers.

Well, all guesses are right.

All the principles espoused so far in this discussion seem right and judicious to this internet judge.

I would agree that there are layers, so to speak, to dips.

If you are bringing some store-bought dip and chips, obviously you're terrible.

If you are bringing a labor-intensive and filling and substantial dip, such as a hot dip, like a heartachoke dip, or a five-to-nine layer dip, such as Jesse has suggested, that involves some actual time and care of preparation, I think that that is much more substantive and something that is very welcome, I would say, at a potluck.

Even French onion dip, if you're making that French onion dip from scratch, if you actually caramelizing some onions,

as my friend Libri Chamberlain does when she makes her French onion dip, you know, I just went to her birthday party at her house that I went to last year, and she served that French onion dip.

And the first thing I thought of when I got the invitation to come back is, yeah, I got to eat that dip again.

Like, there's French onion dip can be pretty amazing.

So don't sell that short.

You will show your host

your level of investment based not on

the course of food, entree, appetizer, dessert, that you bring, so much as the care that you take in choosing and preparing and presenting it, right?

So that's all true.

And I think the argument that has been made quite wisely by Linda that you need to mix in there.

And if anything, a potluck dinner, which is usually

cold and congealed around a table that everyone's standing around because you can't sit that many people, you want more appetizers than entrees.

You're not going to be able to eat a whole roast chicken while you're standing up in the living room of someone in your condo talking about common charges, which is that's to me what a potluck is.

All of that said,

to the host of the potluck,

it's not called pot design.

It's called pot you take your chances.

I absolutely forbid any organizer of a potluck from calling up friends and saying, you bring appetizers, you bring desserts, you bring main courses, because it violates, not only does it violate the spirit, but you're creating a huge possible controversy because the people who are making a main course might resent the fact that someone else is making an appetizer and then you're going to have to keep track of who you pegged for mains last year.

And it just gets to be too much.

It's potluck.

You take your chances.

You have to just let people bring whatever they're going to bring.

Because if you're the host of a potluck and your friends show up with a tub of store-bought dip and a package of chips, then you know that your friends are terrible.

And you don't ever have to be friends with them anymore.

It reveals them to you.

So

that's my order.

You can bring an appetizer.

You probably should bring an appetizer.

Put some effort into it.

And don't bring a bag of chips and some store-bought dip.

Let's take a quick break when we come back.

A case about flaky friends.

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

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Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're clearing the docket with our guest, Deputy Judge Linda Holmes from NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour and Monkey Sea blog.

here's something from steph my husband and i have a disagreement on how to deal with flaky friends the particular issue is when we invite friends for an activity and they either a don't respond back via text or email or b give a maybe response then don't show My husband says we should ban flaky friends until they reach out to us to get together.

My view is that we should continue to invite them to activities despite them being wishy-washy.

I don't think these friends think we're boring and don't want to hang out.

I think they just forget to respond and then feel embarrassed for not getting back to us in a timely manner.

Where do you stand?

Should we continue to reach out or make them come crawling back to us?

Well, I can't make a judgment because after that whole potluck discussion, when I hear flaky friends, I just think of a big basket of flaky biscuits, and then I sort of wander off for a while.

So I'm going to let depth judge Linda Holmes weigh in, and then I want to to hear from my bailiff, too.

My bias in answering this question is that I am sometimes the flaky friend.

I have a spotty track record

with things that are less bad, like people I forget to get back to, and things that are more bad, like notes I forget to write.

I have been guilty of that at different times.

It is not a reflection of emotional investment, but of bad organizational skills and a certain amount of procrastination.

At the same time, when there are people in my life who have stopped inviting me to things or the like because I have not fulfilled what they consider to be

my side of those kinds of social

interactions, I have never resented it because it is my fault.

And so, on the one hand, I Linda,

let me interrupt you here for a second because specificity is the soul of narrative.

Yeah.

What's a situation where you flaked out

that you feel particularly bad about?

Like what's the level of your crime?

Oh, when I was in my 20s in particular and attending friends.

Overruled all 20s are flakes.

When I was in my 20s and attending,

you know, friends' weddings, there are definitely a gift or two that I forgot

to send.

I feel monstrous about it.

I still worry about it.

Whose wedding did you forgot to give a gift to?

A couple of college friends.

A couple of college friends.

Are you still friends with them?

Yeah.

Yeah.

They forgave me.

Are they mad at you?

Probably.

Probably.

I have been told people never forget, and that is fine.

I accept my responsibility for it.

So I guess my response is I think it is always a lovely thing if you can overlook people's flaws.

I think this goes under the category of flaws and not necessarily that the people don't like you or think you're boring.

I think it's always good to do that.

I question why the husband, it's the husband, right, Jesse?

Wants to cut off.

Linda, Linda, it's always the husband.

I question what the husband's motivation is for completely cutting people off.

If you think that that's going to like force them to feel terrible and come chasing after you, it's probably not.

So that's not going to get you what you want.

At the same time, if you don't want to invite those people on anything, I think that's your right as as well.

So I tend to side with the idea of showing people mercy and it does, it's no skin off of your nose to keep including them in an email, you know, that says this is what we're doing.

But Linda, it could be skin.

It could be skin off their nose.

It could be.

What if they're organizing a nose skinning party?

Damn.

And they only have a limited number of

nose skinners to hand around and they need to know whether or not these people are coming in order to reserve them from the nose skinning company.

You know, you're right.

This is why they pay you the big bucks.

This is why you have the full-length judge's robe.

What if it's a dinner reservation, something a little bit more common than a nose skinning party?

What if you're going to a restaurant?

Oh.

And you have to reserve a table for four or four six, and you need to know whether they're coming, and they say, maybe, and then they never say anything else.

What if that happens time and time again?

Yeah, I would never do that.

I think that at that point, you'd definitely stop inviting the people because if you're actually putting people out in terms of like they're trying to make a plan and you're not answering, that is unambiguously bad friending.

And they should apologize profusely the next time they see you.

And you should only have to tell them once, hey, maybe remind them, hey, we're trying to make a plan for this thing.

And if you don't hear from them, you assume they're not coming.

And if they show up, you say, that's fine, you can sit on the table.

Yeah, I think that you can create.

Listen, I grew up as the only child of two parents who actively hated each other and were in court my entire childhood.

So I know a little something about creating boundaries to avoid interpersonal conflict.

And my suggestion here is that if you are participating in an activity that requires an answer, that you build that answer into the invitation.

So let's say you are, as in your example, John, going to a restaurant

and you say,

we're putting together a group of friends to go to Kenny Shopkin's restaurant in New York on Friday night.

Would you like to come?

I'm making the reservation on Wednesday.

There, it's settled.

If they don't say yes by Wednesday, they're out.

They're not coming.

They're out.

Up your nose.

And I agree with Linda very much that there is a difference between the amount of effort involved in sending an invitation and the amount of effort involved in participating in an activity in which someone has flaked.

So my definition of flake is someone who says they're going to do something and then immediately beforehand says they're not going to show up or doesn't show up at all after saying they're doing something.

Including them in an invitation isn't a big deal, but that is a big deal.

Yeah, agreed.

If somebody doesn't show.

So like I like to go to the flea market, and I'm willing to go to the flea market myself or with friends.

Sometimes on Saturday, I'll send out a text message.

Hey, anybody want to go to the flea market?

If nobody responds, that's fine.

I go by myself.

If somebody responds, maybe, there's an obvious deadline there, and I know what the stakes are.

I would only be upset with someone for not coming if they responded yes, then didn't show up.

Because there I am standing at the flea market with two hot dogs in my hand, one for each of us, and then I have to eat eat both.

So I guess that's actually a situation I would prefer.

That worked out okay for you, didn't that hypothetical?

Yeah, but I think you follow where I'm going.

Well, you know, obviously there are a million different circumstances in which friends let each other down.

So many flavors of letting each other down.

And they each have different stakes, and they each have different levels of betrayal.

And not one of us in this tribunal, not you, Jesse, or you, Linda Holmes of Pop Culture Happy Hour, or you, Joel Mann at WRUFM here in Orland, Maine, or me, even Judge John Hodgman, know exactly the trials and tribulations that Steph

and her husband have gone through that have led husband to say, these people are dead to me forever.

And Steph saying, let's keep them alive one more time.

But here's what I'm going to say.

First of all, blanket amnesty to all people who did flaky stuff in their 20s.

Linda Holmes, that includes you.

Linda Holmes, I absolve you.

All people in their 20s are flakes.

They don't know how to be grown-ups yet.

And I guarantee you, if those friends out there are holding a grudge against you because you didn't get them a food processor or whatever, it's better, you're better off without them.

But more likely than not, they never put it together that you didn't give them a gift.

And if they did, they've long since forgiven you.

And more importantly, so do I, Judge John Hodgman.

When you're in your 30s, you have no more excuse to be a bad grown-up.

You have to be a pretty good grown-up.

And that means responding promptly to invitations,

being honest about your ability to attend or not to attend, and not flaking, not saying you're going to do something when you're not going to do something.

Then when you

start to get into your 40s, like me,

or maybe late 40s like Joel, I'm not going to even ask you, Joel.

Joel's a pretty wise Gandalf up here.

That's all I'm going to say.

You know, then social interaction doesn't matter anymore because now you're allowed to be just a weird old.

Frankly, you don't want to see anyone and they don't want to see you.

Isn't that right, Joel?

No friends.

Yes, that's right.

I have a number of friends who are my age who have ceased responding to emails and texts altogether.

And it's something glorious about it.

It's like, yeah, I'm with you on that one.

Just because I had the idea to ask you to have a cup of coffee, now you have homework.

And if you blow that homework off, I respect that.

Who cares?

I think, but you have to wait until you're in your mid-40s or later.

And ideally, in a misanthropic location, a natively misanthropic location like Maine, to pull off that, like, maybe you'll see me, maybe you won't deal.

But if you're going to be a grown-up who's in the world, you got to, you got to reply.

You got to do the homework of being a grown-up and reply and don't say you're gonna do things and then not do things.

And I mean, I appreciate that there's mercy in the world,

but not today on my podcast.

I'm with the husband on this one.

If he's mad enough to cut them off, cut them off.

Forget those friends.

Literally, they forget they existed.

That's probably what they want you to do.

Treat them the way they treat you and don't contact them for a little while.

See what happens?

It's not about getting revenge and having them crawl back to you.

Everyone has to accept the limits of everyone else's virtue.

And some people just aren't up to

being good people all the time.

Doesn't mean you can't love them.

If you accept their limits and their limits are they can't make plans, don't make plans with them.

You'll see them when you see them.

Trust me.

Let's go to a follow-up now.

Teresa wrote in about a docket dispute regarding trash disposal at the movie theater from episode 312.

We ruled that when going to the movies, you should be responsible for picking up your own garbage.

This is what Teresa says.

I grew up in Richmond, Virginia.

The Byrd Theater is a national landmark, one of the oldest movie theaters in the country, and is open every day for just $2 a ticket.

I've seen countless films in the tiny, uncomfortable seats.

If you get there on a Saturday night, they've got a special performance on a Wurlitzer organ.

My favorite thing about going to the bird is the anti-litter PSA they show before every performance.

Ask anyone in Richmond, and they'll be able to perform the entire thing by heart.

I suggest you forward it to the guys who decided that leaving trash around is an acceptable thing to do in life.

We'll post this video on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Can we get a taste of it right now, Jennifer?

It's showing in theaters everywhere, and moviegoers are all saying the same thing.

It was horrifying.

I couldn't believe my eyes.

Watch for it in this theater.

Here comes my favorite part.

Not the screen.

This guy eating popcorn.

Pretty gross.

Pretty gross.

Litter.

Oh.

Can I just say how completely horrifying I thought that docket case was when there was someone who was basically like, I want to enjoy the luxury of leaving a mess that someone else has to clean up.

Horrifying.

I could not believe it that there was someone arguing that you can leave your

trash all over the movie theater.

You know what?

People get their kicks in weird ways.

But folks, everyone should go and watch this video.

Thank you, Teresa, for sending it in.

It'll be at the JudgeJohn Hodgman page at maximumfund.org, which you can always get to quickly by going to bit.ly slash judgejohodgman.

Make sure to stay till the end to see this incredible logo for the Virginia Division of Litter Control and Recycling.

This is the most gorgeous 70s style logo in not just sports, but also all divisions of litter control.

What if there are uniforms?

I would love to see them.

Jesse Thorne.

Tell us all about who made this podcast and who Linda Holmes is and what's going on in our lives.

Well, Linda Holmes is the host of NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour, a delightful and hilarious show alongside, as you mentioned, Linda Stephen Thompson and another big Judge John Hodgman booster.

We appreciate it very much, Glenn Weldon, and a rotating cast of thousands

of delightful personalities from NPR and elsewhere talking about popular culture.

It is a fun, funny,

charming show that when you listen to it, you will quickly become best friends with its hosts, as I have.

Linda is also my friend at NPR.

When I go to Washington, D.C., I interrupt her work to complain about whatever meeting I've just come out of and commiserate over what it's like to work at a gargantuan, faceless nonprofit.

It's always a pleasure.

Even a wonderful one like National Public Radio.

You can also find Linda on Twitter at NPRMonkey Sea, and you can find her blog on npr.org.

It's called Monkey Sea.

She and Judge Hodgman will be appearing together live on the Vacation Land Book Tour in Washington, D.C.,

October 28th.

You can find all the information about that tour at johnhodgman.com/slash tour.

This episode was recorded by Joel Mann at WERU in East Orland, Maine.

The show is produced and recorded here at MaxFun headquarters in Los Angeles by the great Jennifer Marmer.

Thanks for watching.

You can find us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

We're on Instagram now at JudgeJohnHodgman, where you can find all the evidence for our cases as well as other casual snaps, as I like to call them.

And where I hope to see romantic selfies from Rice and Bean on their date that I am paying for.

If you want to send in that picture, Rice and Bean, just email it to me at hodgman at maximumfund.org.

Yeah, that prospect is very exciting to me.

You can also check out the maxfun subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com if you are a redditor.

I would characterize the maxfund subreddit as Reddit's home for non-monsters.

You can submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJHO or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

We are particularly, I emphasize this, particularly seeking cases in the New York, New York metropolitan area and in the London, England area.

If you are in one of those two places, be sure to tell us that you are in one of those two places.

And if you have a case and you live in one of those two places, even if you think it's marginal, even if you think it might be a bad idea,

send it to us anyway.

We will decide.

We are the judges.

Maximumfund.org/slash JJHO.

Okay.

Thanks, Linda Holmes.

You're the best.

Thanks, Jesse.

Thanks, Linda Holmes.

Thank you.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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