Live From SF Sketchfest 2017

Welcome to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week's episode recorded live at San Francisco Sketch Fest in San Francisco, California, with the brilliant musical guest, Sarah Watkins.

Let's go to the stage.

Tonight's case, Hieronymus Quash.

Tierney brings the case against her husband, Zach.

Zach's grandmother made a print that he'd like to hang in their home.

Tierney thinks it looks too dark and unsettling.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise, but not literally,

as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Greetings, New England.

No?

All right.

Here is the obscure cultural reference.

It's not bad enough to have Friday the 13th.

We got to have a full moon, too.

We keep statistics.

We have more accidents, more robberies, more homicides, more comedy festivals, and more podcasts, more of everything when there's a full moon.

It upsets people.

It makes them nuts.

Bailiff Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear the men.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Continue to address the microphones.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

Yes.

Yeah, or whatever.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he has a passion for the dark and disturbing?

Yes.

Wasn't really a joke, just wanted to do that voice.

Very well, Judge Hodg.

Zach and Tierney, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered the courtroom?

Zach, you are the defendant in this case, so you may guess first or force Tierney to guess first, but you will both get to guess.

So, what should it be?

You will guess first or she will guess first?

I'll guess first.

Oh, very bold.

What is your guess, sir?

I I have no idea.

Oh,

you must guess.

But I'm very excited that you have no idea.

Because you were coming at it hard, and I thought you had it down.

Thought this was going to be a Ferris Bueller's Days Off situation

where you're going to guess it right off the bat, and my head explodes, and I go home.

Take a guess.

Was it Judge John Hodgman?

Was it Judge John Hodgman?

Enter that into the guess book.

Judge John Hodgman, the podcast.

Do you know what?

There's precedent for it.

I've quoted myself in the past because I love myself.

Now, Tierney,

it is now your turn to guess.

It is a piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered the courtroom.

I'm going to guess it's from Judy Bloom.

Is it from Judy Bloom?

Any particular work?

Oh, gosh.

All of it.

Her anthology.

Her anthology.

The Judy Bloom, the Judy Bloom Omnibus.

Put that please, into the book.

Dearly noted.

Now, let me look over these guesses here in the guess book.

Oh, guess what I'm wrong?

You are both incorrect.

It was, of course, from the movie Friday the 13th.

It has nothing to do with your case.

It has everything to do with the fact that we're here in the beautiful Kern Theater in San Francisco on Friday the 13th.

And is it a full moon?

No.

But it was last night.

Tonight it is merely a 96.8% full moon,

which is pretty good.

So,

since you are both, I mean, that's close.

I mean, I take it.

Of course, if that were a math test that I had in ninth grade, I would not be proud of myself.

It's got to be 100.

Got to be 100.

How else is everyone in the world going to love me?

It's good enough for me, Judge Hodgman.

I'm 96.8% werewolf.

Like a great, great, great-grandmother who was not a werewolf.

It's true that she was a Frankenstein.

It's true.

It's true that when we did the rehearsal, Jesse was clean-shaven.

All right, so Zach and Tierney, we have to hear your case.

This is a dispute about a painting.

Is that correct?

A piece of art.

About a print.

A print.

And boy, you know, I only got a 96.8% in art class.

So tell me what the difference is.

What is a print?

A print is made with inks

and paintings made with paint.

But it is an original piece of art.

It is.

It's an artist's proof.

And it was created by someone related to Zach.

Is that correct?

Correct.

You can go ahead and take the cue and bring it up.

All right, thank you very much.

Feel free to elaborate and speak more than monosyllabically.

Okay.

That counts.

So

there is a difference of opinion regarding the quality of this painting and where it should be and if it should be in your home.

Do I understand the dispute more or less correctly?

Yes?

Yes.

Yes.

Okay, with the record.

So they said yes.

So, Tierney, you have some expertise in the world of art.

What are your your credentials, if I may ask?

Can I interject?

She's wearing a black turtleneck.

That's true.

In fact, I would argue that her current outfit is sufficient qualifications to be

an artist, an art gallerist, or international art thief.

That's right.

I would certainly prefer the latter.

However, in August, I graduated with my master's degree in art and curatorial practice in the public sphere.

Congratulations!

Thank you.

So, from a

master

of art curation and other words that you said,

how would you describe this print that Zach's grandma made?

It's not to my taste.

Well, what does it portray?

We're going to look at it in a moment using the power of podcast and non-visual media.

But before that, I would like to hear your description of it, both in terms of what it represents, although I realize it's a very pedestrian way to talk about art, and what it means symbolically.

And then, Zach, you're going to say your dumb words about it, too.

What are you a master of, Zach?

Not a whole lot.

I have a fancy degree in making video games, which I do not use.

You don't use the degree, or you don't use the video games you make?

Either.

Mostly because the games don't exist.

Right.

Theoretical video games.

Correct.

Yeah.

That's like me and my degree in literary theory.

I don't like books so much as the idea of books.

All right, Mal, tierne.

I've given you enough time to collect your thoughts.

Let's hear it.

Sure.

My understanding about the piece is that Zach's grandmother created it when Dr.

Seuss died, and that was a profoundly sad thing for her, as I'm sure it was for everybody.

And

it's sort of a depiction of of a vulture that has sort of cartoonishly large feet and sort of big sad eyes.

So

it sort of exists in this weird space between kind of cute and cartoony and kind of sad and mournful and a little bit frightening because vultures are evocative of death.

Yeah, they're carrion eaters.

Yeah.

They're creatures that eat the dead bodies of other things.

How would you change?

As an homage to Dr.

Seuss of Children's Author.

How would you characterize the aesthetic style

or artistic style of the principle?

Good question, Werewolf of the Prince.

Answer.

I don't think it fits into a particular style.

It looks like a lot of her other work.

Was she an artist by training

and by profession?

Yes.

Okay, so this is real art.

This is real.

I mean, you have to acknowledge.

Let the record reflect that the litigant made it face.

No, no, no, no.

I personally disagree with anybody declaring whether or not something is art.

If somebody tells you something is their art, it is, and you can't really argue with them.

It's art.

I just said it.

Zach, is that description accurate?

It is.

What is the name of this painting?

It's called the Frugogalite.

Guzuntai.

I know that you both brought evidence, so I'm going to step back to my viewing area

and instruct our audiovisual person to bring forth the Fragogolite.

Let the podcast listening audience know that the

in-person audience gasped in horror.

Zach, could you describe what we're seeing here on the screen?

Kind of a terrifying vulture creature with large feet.

The feet are almost as large as its body.

Correct.

May I see the next slide, please?

Close-up detail

of its dead doll's eye

and its incredibly sharp beak.

Next one, please.

What is this that I'm looking at?

This is another piece of art.

This is another example of her artwork that we do hang in our house that I have not objected to.

You have not objected?

Let me describe what I see here.

I see two silhouettes of two scuba divers about to be consumed by a terrifying monster of the deep.

A fish that has wings of some kind.

But it has a Rorschach quality, so it might just be a pretty flower.

I don't know.

You like this one, Tierney?

Zach likes it, and I don't find it upsetting.

Okay.

All right.

And the next, well, the next slide we're going to see is,

okay.

This is an image from looks like Google Street View of

another dimension where everything is backwards.

Oh, no, it's backwards because I'm looking from the back.

Sorry.

What is this that I'm looking at right now?

That's a sign in front of a theater that my grandmother and I painted.

We painted the sign, not the theater.

Oh, so you guys painted the,

so it's a theater.

Where is the theater?

Lafayette.

All right.

And it is

the classic comedy and drama masks.

surrounded by falling autumn leaves and it's a very beautiful painting and you and your grandma painted it together.

Yes.

Very nice.

What is this evidence of?

Your love?

I had no idea this was even going to be displayed.

Tierney, did you enter this into evidence?

I did.

I wanted to show examples of her work that didn't frighten me.

Although, to be frank, although this represents the comedy and drama masks, For a painting on the front of a theater in Lafayette, California that represents those things, it is relatively frightening, is it not?

Yeah, I mean, drama looks like it's about to eat me and comedy is clearly laughing at me.

We have one final slide.

I didn't think it could get more horrific.

I don't begin to

describe this.

Did you enter this one into evidence as well, Tierney?

My husband entered it into evidence.

Please, Zach, will you describe what we are seeing here?

I was told that this is a family-friendly show.

I'm not sure how to describe it.

Well, now the podcast-listening audience's imaginations are running wild.

So

it's kind of a glowworm rabbit demon offspring.

It's kind of a, it's almost a sort of cupie doll with a vivid yellow,

a vivid yellow pelt.

Yeah.

And it's got sort of rabbit ears.

But it looks like a sculpture.

Is this something you have in your home?

This is a lamp that was given to my wife by her sister.

Shipped it all the way from England.

So, and the point of the evidence is that your wife's sister has terrible taste, just like your grandma?

Correct.

Or I should say terrifying, not terrible.

Terrible.

No, this is an item that my wife would very much like to be in the house house next to our bed.

I do not want my grandmother's artwork right next to my bed.

I would just like it indoors where it won't get ruined by the wet weather outside.

Where is the Fragogo light currently stored?

It was in the garage.

I brought it in before the show.

My wife actually brought it in, I believe.

So your grandmother is no longer living, I presume.

Correct.

Correct.

And this was passed down to you as a family heirloom?

Yes.

The art was done by my grandmother, and then my grandfather framed it, and he passed away a couple months ago.

So, what does this piece of art mean to you, Zach?

What is its significance to you?

It was a memory I have specifically of my grandmother creating a piece of art and telling me why she did it.

So, I remember it really fondly as a child.

I was probably about 10 or so when

she made it.

And did she wait until you were 18 to show it it to you?

Or have you been scarred since the age of 10?

No, I.

You have to admit, Zach, that's a scary painting.

It's terrifying, I think.

It's a terrifying, scary painting.

Was that typical of her work, would you say?

I don't think most of her work is terrifying.

And, Tierney, are you a scared of the Fergogo light, or do you take issue with it on other aesthetic grounds?

It's purely on a matter of creepiness.

It's just too creepy to have.

And

that's from someone who's wearing all black.

It's slimming.

Plus, it helps you get through those crisscross laser beams.

You're also wearing some sort of skull pendant around your neck as well.

Is that right?

Yeah.

So you've got a Tuesday Adams thing going on.

Is it Tuesday or Wednesday?

I forget.

Wednesday?

Oh, my God.

Real-time pet entry.

Live

from the current theater.

Judge Hodgman, if I could just clarify, his name is The Doctor.

Doctor Who is the name of the show.

Thank you very much, Jessie.

I appreciate that.

So, all right, so you're just creeped out by it.

And you would like it out of the house?

I'd like to offer it back to another family member.

You'd like to foist it off on another family member?

And Zach, how do you feel when you consider handing this thing over to someone else?

Mostly sad.

Sincerely sad or just because you want to win sad?

A little bit of each.

Try to say more words than sad

so that I can judge your sincerity.

I feel like

I should be able to bring some things into the house that maybe she doesn't like so much, and she should be able to bring in some things that I don't like so much.

Such as this terrifying doll lamp.

Or a sister wife.

Yes, as long as the terrifying lamp.

I'm sorry, a sister wife?

Do you live in a single room?

Is there not a place that you could put it that would be out of the way?

Like a den or a creepy basement?

Or

where would you, if I were to find in your favor, where would you have me order that you put it?

In the guest bedroom next to the terrifying lamp that sits above you.

In the guest bedroom next to this terrifying lamp?

Yes.

They could be friends.

But Tierney wants that in your bedroom.

Tierney wants the terrifying cupie doll in your bedroom.

Is that not right, Tierney?

Because it's a lamp and I like to read.

Yeah.

Because it's a lamp.

And she likes to read

and no other lamps exist.

All right, I think I've heard enough to make my decision.

I'm going to retire to my chambers.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman, metaphorically as Judge John Hodgman retires to his chambers.

Tierney,

you've just told us that if someone creates art and they say it's art, then it's art.

You've presented this non-judgmental face to the world.

Yet when it comes to your own husband's grandmother, you want to throw it out on the rubbish pile.

No, I do want to give it back to a family member.

And I believe.

You want to make it more fun to visit your in-laws?

No, I don't want to see it go to a thrift store or anything like that.

I want it to go somewhere where the entire household will appreciate it.

Zach, why can't you just find things for your home that the two of you agree on?

That's a good question.

Have you guys thought about getting a divorce?

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this.

Please rise metaphorically as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

You may be seated.

Zach, I didn't give you a chance to answer the question.

Do you have a basement?

Unfortunately, not.

I see.

I have a crawl space, but it's not quite tall enough to put.

put

First of all, I want to tell you something about the Fragogo Light.

It is the title of a screenplay that I just wrote.

It's a little babadookie.

It's about a terrifying vulture painting that a man inherits from his grandma

that he hangs with pride in his house, slowly driving his wife insane.

And eventually, people stop seeing this couple.

They never leave again.

And after five years,

I didn't write it.

I've got to be honest with you, I'm making it up right now.

Someone goes in there, and all there is in the house is the Fragogo light and an army of these weird QP lamps.

It's not a very satisfying movie.

We must stipulate to the obvious fact.

You do not need a master's in art curation, et cetera, et cetera, to know that this thing is super scary.

Fragogolite is a creature of pure terror.

As an homage to Dr.

Seuss, it is more an homage to the rumor about Dr.

Seuss that I always heard as a kid, which was that Dr.

Seuss hates children.

Something I don't think is true, or at least seemed important when I was a child, not knowing at that time that all adults hate children sometimes.

It is a profoundly disturbing work, and that is almost its incredible merit.

because it is such a weird and compelling thing.

One truly wonders of the motive of the artist and why your grandma seeks to drive you both insane.

Tierney, I appreciate the fact that this is not something that you want to have hanging in your home.

Zach, I appreciate the fact that this weird cupie doll demon lamp is not something you want to have next to your wife's bed.

When you live together and when you get married, these sorts of conflict of taste will come up all the time.

And

there are compromises you can make, but ultimately, there are certain things you just can't compromise on.

The Fragogo Light is one of those things.

I appreciate the cinematic desire of Tyranny to pass the curse of Fragogo Light

onto another member of your family.

But the curse of the Fragogolite, as we all know, is a five-year curse.

Five years you shall have Fragogolite in your home.

Five years Fragogolite shall hide in your crawl space.

You say that it cannot fit in that crawl space, find a way.

And if it can't fit in that crawl space, hang it in a place of prominence for five years

and then choose its next victim.

Tierney,

this may feel unfair to you, but the fact is this is Zach's grandma after all, and there is a true emotional connection that Zach is almost able to articulate.

As compensation for the five-year Fergo-like curse, you may put this weird thing next to your bed.

This is the sound of a gowl.

Judge John Hodgman rules out as all.

Our thanks to Tierney and Zach.

Thanks to Julia Scotchko for naming this week's case.

Thank you, Tierney and Zach.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund.org, and they are all your favorites.

If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic.

Just go to maximumfund.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made Inn.

Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

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But made in isn't just for professional chefs.

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And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with made-in cookware.

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Jesse Thorne,

I believe we have an extremely talented and wonderful musical guest, and this would be an appropriate time to introduce that person.

Would you do it, please?

Seems like the perfect time, folks.

You might know her as one of the founding members of the group Nickel Creek.

She's performed on a Prairie Home Companion on Thrilling Adventure Hour and across this great nation.

Please welcome to this stage our friend and soon-to-be yours, Sarah Watkins.

Sarah Watkins, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you, Judge and Bailiff.

Heavy steps and changed you

like all those years of school.

Said is what you say.

Facebook is what you see.

You're like a clear drawn line.

Partition and define.

So you can rest in knowing everything's as it should be.

But I want you to move me

I want you to move

me

I want you to move me

Oh we've got our back and forth

And always stay the course

Talking quickly doesn't leave much time for questioning

So much is repetition

We mimic old decisions

And walk the same path just because we know we're the full lead

But I want you to move me

I want you to move

me

I want you to move me.

I want you to move

me.

But you just keep

me.

I want to give

you all I've got, but I fear you'll disapprove

the underline,

open

eyes,

the heart will follow through.

Take you up and

bring you back,

but You

will not

make

love.

Want you to move me

I want you to move

me

I want you to move me

I want you to move

me

me

Want you to move me

Sarah Watkins, ladies and gentlemen.

Sarah Watkins, singing.

Singing the theme from Forgoto Likes.

Now, Sarah, we have a lot more justice to dispense this evening, and

we could use a musician's keen mind.

Would you be interested in staying on with us for the next segment?

I would be happy.

Happy to.

Fantastic.

So nice to have you here, Sarah.

Thank you again again for that wonderful song.

When I was backstage and Sarah was singing scales to warm up and it was floating into our dressing room over the transom, I felt like a real entertainer.

When I was backstage just now, Tierney came backstage to collect a tote bag she had left behind, and she turned to me and she said, I forgot I had a bag of cheese.

And even though I am married and so is Zach, I proposed marriage to her on the spot.

The Fragogo Leg got me.

We have a special segment coming up, Jesse.

We have so many fun cases from San Francisco.

We would love to hear them all at length, but we can't.

We have to do it fast.

So we have a segment called Swift Justice.

What's going to happen, Jesse?

Well, we're going to be bringing on three cases in 10 minutes.

That gives us just three minutes and 20 seconds per case to provide our unique brand of insightful and hilarious justice.

Exactly so.

And because...

You would think I would have thought of a thing to say then, but I had.

Because we have Sarah here, I've decided we're going to open up

the judgmentalness to a true tribunal.

We will each give a judgment and it'll be a majority rule.

So if I find in favor of one person and these two find in favor of the other person, I'm overruled.

That's how it's it's going to work.

I've set the timer here.

Let's bring in our first litigants, Tyler and Dawn.

Tyler and Don.

Step forward and step lively, Tyler and Dawn.

You are automatically sworn in.

Tyler and Dawn, who brings this case before this court?

I do.

Tyler, speak.

What is your problem?

We have a disagreement about the use of the closet in our guest bedroom.

I believe it should be a utilitarian space where I can put anything and everything.

Don believes it should be well organized with only certain items in it.

Do you realize something that is well organized is also utilitarian?

But we believe that it should be poorly organized.

Is that correct?

I think it should fit.

What, Dawn, tell me what Tyler is talking about.

So, Tyler wants to fill the closet with things we never use, such as suitcases, a huge AC unit, boxes full of C Ds.

Which I listen to.

No, he does not listen to the C D's.

Boxes full full of records.

It's 2017.

It makes it a non-functional space so that, you know, it's like if you take one thing out, it just all falls into each other.

And, you know, we can't use it for things like that.

What's your favorite CD?

I got it.

I got it.

We only have a limited time.

I apologize.

Crooked Rain, Cricket Rain.

Is it Macy Gray or Huba Stink?

Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain by Pavement.

Uh-huh.

All right.

And why do you want to shove your CDs into the closet if you're going to listen to them in the future?

Good question.

Let the record show.

I got them again.

Let the record show.

Dawn,

what would you do with the pavement CDs and everything else if not shove them into the closet?

So I want to raise the bed in the guest room so we can put those things we don't use every week underneath the bed.

On five-foot stilts?

No, just with two pieces of wood we could raise the bed.

Just so you know, Judge Hodgman, the city of San Francisco has a stilt lending library.

And why don't you want to raise the bed, Tyler?

It's a beautiful bed.

It has sentimental value.

Sentimental value?

What's sentimental value?

How old are you?

Nine?

I just don't want to besmirch the aesthetics of the bed by raising it.

We can have a bed skirt, plus, I mean, the closet that you want is super messy.

So.

What's the sentimental value of the bed?

I've had it.

Is it your baby bed?

Believe it or not, it is my baby bed.

And you're saying raising it up a few inches on planks will be a besmirch?

That would be a bed besmirch?

Yes.

Why?

Because, I mean, you know, it is.

Seven seconds.

Why?

Someone designed it to not be raised.

Your mommy?

All right, we're out of time.

That's three minutes.

We've got to come to a judgment in 20 seconds.

All right, I have my verdict.

I am going to say besmirch the bed because it's time to move on with your life.

I'm sure there's a tasteful way to do it, and you've got to get that stuff out of the closet.

All right, Jesse.

I'm with you, Judge Hodgman.

I say, get a nice bed skirt.

Nice bed skirt.

I trust this woman, Dad.

Get a nice trep bed skirt.

For me, that's the crux of the whole thing.

A nice bed skirt.

Sarah Watkins, even though the justice has been served and the bed will be besmirched, does your verdict differ from ours?

It does not.

I feel that I naturally am more of a Tyler person and I have found that the dawn of my life has been very helpful in these sort of

besmirchings of

baby beds.

Besmirching.

What is your age, Tyler?

35.

35!

I was going to say it's time to besmirch babyish things, but in fact, that was five years ago.

I fight in favor of Dawn.

Our next litigants,

please welcome Dana and Betty.

Step right up.

You're automatically sworn in.

Okay.

Who brings this case to my court?

Who seeks justice for you?

I do, Dana.

Dana.

What is your dispute?

Betty and I are both mothers.

Our children are five years old and they're best friends, but they don't go to the same elementary school.

I see.

Nor do they go to the same elementary school.

No.

And Betty believes in prison rules when it comes to

schooling.

She wants to teach her very short child to befriend the largest child she can find and then do that child's homework.

Maricia, I understand this.

Betty, what is the name?

Don't tell me the name of your child.

We'll call your child, come up with a code name for your child.

Biff.

Biff sounds great.

Biff.

Yeah.

You're counseling Biff

to find

the largest thug in the prison yard

and become that person's friend.

What grade is this?

Okay, so

Biff is

kindergarten.

Yeah!

You're going to be eating alive in kindergarten

if you don't get a protector.

This isn't pre-K.

You're going to have a Montessori preschool.

This is hard time.

I should clarify that my issue is not that she wants her child to befriend the largest child, but that she wants to teach her child to do that kid's homework as a weird transaction, like in exchange for protection.

Seems excessive.

That's my problem with the scenario.

Betty,

did you do this in your childhood?

Did you copy kids?

Did you do homework for kids to get protection?

In junior high, yes.

In junior high.

Yes.

And you were like, I did not start this soon enough.

Do you have any other past experiences with doing other people's work?

Yeah, in junior high, I did befriend somebody and do her homework assignments for her.

But there's an ethical quandary there.

Don't you agree?

You're breaking the rules.

Is that what you want to teach Biff?

Yes.

I like that answer.

Dana?

Yes.

25 seconds.

Why is it any of your business how Betty raises Biff?

I mean, it's not my business, and it just makes me really sad.

Like, I love her child.

Our children are best friends.

We do daycare together.

What is your child's code name?

George.

George.

You're afraid that Biff and Dozer

are going to beat up on George, aren't you?

No, my child is much larger than her child,

but they don't go to the same score.

Would you say George is more of a Lenny?

Yeah, oh yeah.

It makes me sad.

Her child is very smart, and it makes me really sad to think that she would be teaching her that friendship is transactional in that way.

And also, her child goes to...

She's going to have to learn sometimes.

Thanks for doing this podcast with me, Judge Poshman.

Thank you, Jesse.

Would you like a receipt?

All right.

I'm sifting this through.

I agree that teaching your child that friendship is transactional and encouraging your child to break ethical rules in order to

avoid, I would say, highly theoretical

bullying is problematic on every level.

But Biff is Betty's child, and I can't get in the way of that.

I would advise you guys go to the same preschool, and then your thug son

can be the protector of Biff.

But until that happens, I find in Betty's favor.

Sarah,

what is your verdict?

I just, I feel like the first step would be to befriend

the large kid.

I forget his name.

I think by called that.

Befriend the kid that seems like a potential future threat.

And then without any transaction really spelled out, just start with the friendship thing, and maybe it won't ever come to the blows.

So you disagree with my verdict.

All right, Jesse, you're the tiebreaker then.

I mean, again, like,

I'm thinking prison economy first and foremost.

And, you know, since they banned cigarettes in federal prisons, the new thing that is used used as a de facto currency is called MACS.

It's packets of freeze-dried mackerel,

which are used because they're freely available in commissaries and they cost exactly $1.

My first instinct to say, yeah, get them some of that mackerel,

see where they can go from there.

But yeah, I think I'm with Sarah on this one.

I think recommending genuine friendship first and foremost is not a bad idea for a small kid, even in kindergarten.

And yeah,

I would keep the cards close to the vest.

You know, there's no need to let them know you're willing to do homework until they demand it.

Judge Sean Hodgman is overruled.

Finding in Dana's favor.

Please welcome to the stage Jen and Ed.

Jen and Ed.

Jen

and Ed.

You are automatically sworn in.

Who brings this case before my court?

I bring the the case.

What is the dispute?

So our family lives in a 700-square-foot cottage, as you do in San Francisco.

What is the size of the family?

It is currently two grown-ups, 1.7 children, and a dog.

Oh,

I like the kid better.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

So in anticipation of your growing family, what change would you like to make to your cottage?

So in the downstairs of the cottage, we we have a finished extra room that's only accessible by a door outside.

And I would like to add trapdoor stairs to our house so that we can access the downstairs room without having to go outside.

Trapdoor stairs?

That is correct.

Can I ask you a question?

Would you put little rubber things on the corners of the trapdoor stairs so they're safe for babies?

There has been a lot of discussion around this, both in terms of the pneumatic door that I plan to open with

a button and also various safety measures involving netting.

It's going to be super safe.

Do you mean to say?

Have you considered installing a flying trapeze?

We actually have very safe.

Yes, you have considered that.

This is San Francisco.

Let me just understand what you're talking about here.

You're talking about cutting a hole in your floor.

That is correct.

And then you would open it up.

How would you go down?

So there are stairs that would be permanently installed downstairs, and just the access point would be covered by a trapdoor.

Oh, okay, okay.

So it's not like an attic trapdoor where the ladder comes down or anything like that.

No, the stairs are permanent.

Right.

It's just that you have to open the trapdoor.

It's just a death hole.

But your death will be slowed by stairs.

For your baby.

I understand.

Well, Ed, I have to say,

this would be an amazing Fragogo-like chamber

and would certainly free up some extra room in your home.

What

I can't possibly guess

is your problem with this.

So,

as has been alluded to, I think there are safety issues with having a death hole in our hallway.

And I think you've covered those already.

And I think it would be very hard to make safe even with the most advanced netting.

And there's some real good netting out there, folks.

It would also, the trapdoor would mean taking up space upstairs, which is pretty limited because you wouldn't be able to put anything on top of the trapdoor lest it be, you know, and also you wouldn't want kids to get it.

What if you go down there and you close the door and then there's a fire and your dumb dog is sleeping on top of the trapdoor?

We would still have the second exit that would lead directly to the door.

No, no, no, no.

You'd have to brick that up.

Don't you know anything about building codes in San Francisco?

With the trapdoor, you said in the hallway, would it be like something that you would necessarily have to walk over?

Yes.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

How often would you need to get down there?

Is this like a seasonal room?

Is this a...

This would be a, well,

the idea of putting the stairs in would be to use it every day.

Every day.

All the time.

But for what purpose?

As the baby's room?

No, but like what's going to be down there

if not a monster?

So right now we use it as a guest room.

We could use it more frequently as a playroom.

You know what?

You have 700 square feet.

No guests allowed.

Ever.

Ever, ever, ever.

You don't deserve to have guests here.

Eventually,

and you're going to have a baby.

Who's going to come?

If you want a parent?

If you want to.

tell them to get a hotel room, they're grown-ups.

If you want guests, move to Vallejo.

What about a bridge?

Could you put a bridge over like a little curved bridge?

Oh, what about like a dope slide?

Like out the window and he put another window?

Look,

they're putting a hole in the floor, and they got high ceilings.

Why not a fire pole?

Yes.

How long do you intend to stay in the shed that you live in?

Forever.

Really?

You love it?

You want to live there forever?

You're a tiny homes type people?

We kind of have to be.

Yeah, we don't have a choice.

Yeah, no, no, I understand.

But, all right, I got you.

And do you anticipate that this will increase or decrease the value of your home?

I think that it might be, it might, I mean, some people might see it as a feature, but I think most people would find it worrying.

I totally would be into a house with trapdoor.

I think everyone would be into a house with a door.

Have you discussed this with a professional, like a contractor?

Not yet.

I see.

You're going to do it yourself?

You're going to do it yourself, Chuck Bryant style?

No, we always like to get a ruling first before we go through the bid process.

All right.

I think we're out of time on this one.

So

I

totally put a trapdoor in your floor.

I think your anticipation of living in this house forever is highly delusional.

You're going to have to have more space eventually because you have a child coming.

And what kind of dog do you have?

He's a mutt.

He's like 50 pounds.

All right.

Average, right?

Average dog?

Average.

Well, and in the meantime, you're going to be doing something really fun and weird to your home, and maybe you'll get to go on tiny house hunters or something.

So, I think it's fine.

I think eventually you're going to have to sell that house, and people will be going to lad you.

Some dumb-dumb like me is going to go, oh, trapdoor, yay, I'll buy it.

Is there potential for an outside entrance to this as like a separate room that somebody could access from outside?

Yeah,

go around entrance.

Okay, okay, I missed that part.

I see.

It's a finished room, but you have to go out of the house and around back to get into it.

Unless you have a trapdoor in the middle of the floor.

You couldn't just put outside stairs.

That's what I'm thinking.

Covered, like protected outside stairs.

Well, yeah, so we have outside stairs.

No, I guess we could put some sort of canopy over it.

The other thing is, our cottage is in the backyard of someone else's house.

Do they know you live there?

Yes.

Jesse, what is your verdict?

I mean, it sounds dangerous and expensive.

Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, what am I going to say?

No?

All right.

That's two in favor.

Sarah,

your ruling is not binding, but you may issue a minority report.

I have no interest in that.

I feel like there's a great solution to this problem.

There has to be one.

I don't know exactly what it is.

But

I would like to see a mechanism,

like maybe the floor lowers almost like an elevator like a drum riser

drum riser you can't fall

a bunch of drums like Sheila E like

270 degrees of drums

I think there's a lot of ways you could I mean maybe not a lot, but there are options and you should always absolutely call it a trapdoor no matter what.

Whatever it is, it's a trapdoor, so ordered.

Sorry, Ed.

Jen and Ed, thank you so much jen and ed all right sarah watkins thank you sarah watkins thank you

you know we've been doing my brother my brother me for 15 years and maybe

maybe you stopped listening for a while maybe you never listened and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years i know where this has ended up but no No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hargman, shall we bring one last case to the stage?

Let us please dispense a little bit more justice.

Do you want to excuse yourself?

Oh, sorry.

I just want to point out that I developed a heel spur over the past couple of weeks, and all this walking back and forth really hurts.

Please welcome to the stage Vicki, Alyssa, Enaro, and David.

Tonight's case, property bothers.

Vicki, Alyssa, Enaro, and David all live next to each other and share a backyard.

Enaro and David have been stockpiling founda objects for home projects.

Vicki and Alyssa say they've gone too far with what they call eco-hoarding.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers the obscure cultural reference.

The cat is going to the bathroom right in back of my portrait.

You know what?

I'm glad he is.

I'm glad somebody's doing something they want to.

Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, or whatever?

Yes, yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he knows no eco in his hoarding?

Yes,

yes.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

You may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours couple's favors.

Each couple gets to guess the source of the cultural reference that I made as I entered the courtroom.

Let's see, who goes first?

Who is the defendant?

Oh, both of the dudes, right?

All right.

Okay, so it's girls versus guys.

So, guys, you can guess first or force your partners to guess first.

I'm going to go with the full moon theme and your Lycanthrop bailiff and say Team Wolf.

Is it from Teen Wolf?

We'll put that in the guess book now.

Women, do you have a guess?

The Garfield comic.

The Garfield comic.

That would have been the funniest funniest Garfield ever.

Although, you know what?

I was rereading some.

Some of them are pretty good.

Some of those Garfields.

Some of the early years.

Pretty good.

Pretty good.

That cat loves lasagna.

Yeah.

It's like, what about cat food?

But, you know, he's just like, you know.

He's just.

He's really something.

You guys got to see this thing.

Jim Davis, remember that name?

It was when Garfield started standing up on his hind legs, on those cat hind legs that aren't meant to be stood up on that way, that I was like, that's the end for me.

All guesses are wrong.

Of course, I was quoting from the great documentary Grey Gardens about two,

a mother and daughter living in a house full and a property full of garbage, which is what brings you guys here today.

Now.

Vicki and Alyssa, you think that you're, are you both married to these gentlemen?

We are.

So I may refer to them both as your husbands?

Correct.

Your husbands, you guys, this dispute is over a yard, and there is no fence.

You are neighbors, but there is no fence between your yard because of the old common saying: no fences make for future lawsuits.

And here we are.

It happened.

But the issue isn't that you don't have a fence, it's that you guys, Sonaro and David,

keep stuff in the backyard.

How would you describe the stuff that you keep back there?

Gentlemen.

Potential

beautification.

Building materials.

Building.

What kind of building materials are we talking about?

Like bags of Sand Crete and rebar?

Rebar, of course.

There's some of that.

I was not expecting yes to rebar.

Also, Sand Crete.

And Sand Crete, too?

Yeah.

I was worried that there wasn't a thing called Sand Crete and that I was going to get yelled at the way I was about Wednesday Adams.

Judge Hodgman, my neighbor hoards building materials.

Not only does he have rebar, scaffolding, plastic pallets, wooden pallets, all these things in his backyard, I just looked out there and there were just two bowling balls sitting there.

It's like, come on.

Do you have any bowling balls back there?

No bowling balls.

But if you found some bowling balls, realistically.

I have access to bowling balls.

Yeah.

I know where to take them.

How, is is this organized neatly in the backyard?

No.

I see.

I believe there is some evidence, and I think we should look at it.

I'm going back to my viewing station.

May we see some photos, pleased.

Ah.

Well.

Let the record reflect that it's worse than the audience had imagined.

I can't say I completely understand your organizational system.

Neither do we.

There are not two bowling balls, but there is one rotting soccer ball that is abutting a mishmash pile of egg crates and a lot of old wood.

Next slide, please.

There's a child.

I did not realize there was a child.

Like, first of all,

there is a

moldering aquarium full of rotting water.

But I didn't even see that, but I saw this child.

There's a child in this equation.

Is this one of your children or something you found?

That's our older daughter.

How many children are endangered in this backyard?

Five in total.

Five in total.

Whoa.

And for the purposes of the listening audience, this is a child on a rope swing swinging over

a two-basin kitchen sink

that is full of dead leaves.

Next slide, please.

Is this the whole of it?

These pictures are distorted.

These pictures are...

Yes!

Oh, really?

Is it like a magic eye picture that if I sort of unfocus my eyes, I see an actual backyard instead of a junk pile with duck?

Ducks are in here!

That is a clearly man-made pond for ducks.

Are those your ducks or just local ducks that seek refuge?

Because

their backyard looks like a wilderness full of old,

and also it's some old wagons and wheelbarrows in there.

They are our ducks, yeah.

What are their names?

Stormfly and

Windshear.

Did you just make up those names right now?

Stormfly and Balcony.

All right, next.

So it looks like you're holding up your trellis with a stack of old tuna cans.

And this is another terrifying aquarium.

This seems to be indoors.

Is this evidence suggesting that you live in squalor indoors as well as that?

Actually, no, our indoors,

it's workable.

It's nice.

What is this then?

This is a recycled aquarium.

Filled with rare plants that I have acquired from eco-hoarding.

Is this what you call this eco-hoarding?

No, that's what they call it.

Ah, I see.

That's why you made the scare quotes.

I was missing.

When you say that you call it that, do you mean that's your pitch to the New York Times style section?

Because if you're looking for a pitch to the New York Times style section, I mean

adventure playground.

You're set.

You're good as gold.

So this is the product of something you made from the junk that you had out back?

Junk that I found, collected, and brought to my house.

Yeah, Yeah, and

no one disputed it, you're the blame for the junk.

And Naro, this represents a good outcome from the junk?

Again, the pictures are distorted.

How is this distorted?

This one is very nice in person.

It is

not a very good outcome.

There's about a dozen rare plants that few people have in cultivation right now.

I find that very valuable.

maybe not monetarily, but

very valuable for

your wife kicks you out of the house.

What's your favorite rare plant that you've got going up in there?

It's a

philodendron hastatum in the very back under the fish.

Do you see the fish there?

It's a fish mobile.

Yes, that's correct.

All right, gotcha.

And final slide?

No, this isn't the final slide.

Oh, it is.

Nope, one more.

And there, oh, you have chickens as well.

This seems to be a

larger on the inside kind of thing, an interdimensional junk garden that just goes on and on and on.

How did I miss this chicken pen in the first panorama shot?

It's behind the other panorama shot.

You guys.

Do you not acknowledge, gentlemen, that the backyard is currently in disarray to the point of potential danger?

It's always been potential danger.

So just before potential danger.

It's always been dangerous.

It's just prettier now than it was six years ago.

You consider this to be prettier?

Or not this, but the photos that I saw?

Well, we don't have pictures from eight years ago.

What was different then?

Nothing.

There was nothing.

There was nothing there.

It was in your front yard.

It used to be a super fun site.

The difference was

the problem with your garden was not full of junk that I found.

Okay, what are you going to do with this junk, you guys?

Well, this chicken coop.

I don't want to talk about the chicken coop anymore.

We've taken the whole picture.

We all know what you're living with back there.

What is the end game, or is this it?

That's the question.

Is there anything that's going to be done with all this stuff?

Well that was made out of that stuff.

Oh I see that's the point you're making.

Yes.

You made a chicken coop and next you're going to make a tiger sanctuary?

Your honor?

Don't give them any ideas.

There's missing pictures there too.

We've submitted pictures of raised beds that we

constructed.

Raised beds.

Raised beds for growing food.

Yes.

Made out of recycled 4x4s.

Yes.

May I interject?

Yes, you may.

The 4x4s.

How many?

Ten?

Ten, 12?

Ten 4x4s sat between our driveways for three years, riddled with.

Hold on.

Riddled with nails sticking out in all directions.

They're about 15 feet long.

About 15 feet long.

And now.

Wait, wait, wait.

Wait, no, no, no, no, no, you wait.

Okay.

There's more.

There's not a lot you have to say.

Okay.

Alyssa lost her keys there for a year.

I'm not waiting for one of, for either you, Alyssa or you, Vicki, to come in and convince me.

Woo!

In fact,

I'm going to ask one more question, and I'm not even going to retire to chambers because we're short on time.

Inaro, what are you growing in your raised food beds?

Currently, at the moment?

Yes.

Garlic.

Garlic?

That is expensive.

That's an awesome answer.

I have to say,

you won me over a little bit with that one.

Because you baited and switched me.

Because you are delaying.

You're like, currently, at the moment, what I expected you to say is, I have plans for garlic in nine years.

But you're actually making use of the thing.

All right, look,

I admire that you are repurposing obvious garbage

and gradually and eventually terraforming

your backyard into something that I hope

will not be dangerous to humans

in the near future and productive in terms of growing your garlic and rare plants.

The problem is your staging is terrible.

The first thing I saw was all this wood piled up

in complete disorder.

Your Honor?

Yes.

That first picture was actually the storage areas.

The designated storage areas in each backyard.

All of it is a problem.

All of it is a problem.

It needs to be.

If you seriously want to eco-hoard

a bunch of stuff and repurpose it, you have to neaten it up, you guys.

Neaten it up.

You can't have dangerous stuff.

You can't just throw stuff in willy-nilly.

If you got wood, pile your wood.

Stack it up.

You could have shown me.

What do you, what, what?

It is stacked.

I know what I saw, Naram!

Stop telling me that the pictures were doctored.

Okay.

Okay, hold on.

Are they sharing?

Are you telling me these pictures are fake news?

No.

For people in the third balcony or at home, David and Enaro just shared a look like, oh, we've got this thing one.

And then Enaro's like,

the one is stacked.

Ha ha!

No.

Your honor.

We will be back here

next year, I hope.

And I will like to see some photos of a backyard that has been thoroughly cleaned up up and doesn't look like something that's going to show up on a reality show.

Be that hoarders or American pickers.

I want it to look like property brothers, but quick.

I find in favor of Vicki and Alyssa.

This is the sound of a gabble that is.

Vicki, Alyssa, Enaro, and David.

Judge Judge Hodgman, this seems like a perfect time to welcome our friend Sarah Watkins back to the stage.

What do you say?

Ladies and gentlemen, Sarah Watkins has a brand new record album

called Young and All the Wrong Ways and is about to go on tour.

After you listen to this song, go to sarahwatkins.com and find out all about it.

Ladies and gentlemen, Sarah Watkins.

Thank you.

You know, sometimes when

you feel a little overwhelmed by what the judge has ordered that you take on,

the good place to start is just by saying the words, you know, just

gonna get rid of that

non-stack of wood.

So I'm gonna sing this song in encouragement.

Enough is enough.

Come

back to us.

We can't have lost you yet.

We can't have lost you yet.

The flame

in your eyes is dimmed by this disguise

that you've held on too long.

Yeah, you kept it on too long.

But the flame's not gone,

not if you say so.

Hope, hope is is made a safe.

Deep, deep as you can dig for me

when you're ready

to begin.

Just say so,

just say so.

Hands been round the clock,

but one day they will stop

And you're running headlong a

racing to your end

Well time

is yours to burn

But the key is yours to turn

Some will watch and wait

Freedom

what do they know?

Oh, what do they

know?

Hope, hope is where you stay.

Deep, deep as you can deep.

When you're ready

to begin season,

oh, show,

show yourself away

Hear, hear the words from your own lips.

Tell yourself, you're up for this.

Hold, hold as where you say it.

Deep, deep as you can dig for it.

When we're ready

to begin, say so.

Oh, show,

show yourself away to live.

Hear, hear the words from your own lips.

Tell yourself You're up with me.

Say so,

say so.

Say so, say so.

We can't have lost you yet.

We can't have lost you yet.

Just say so, say so.

Our thanks to all of our litigants on the SF Sketchfest stage.

Huge thanks also to our friends from SF Sketchfest, Cole Stratton, Janet Varney, Dave Owen, and Heather Gallagher.

We also want to thank Sarah Watkins for joining us in San Francisco.

She'll be touring the entire United States of America this summer.

You can check out the dates and her music at sarahwatkins.com.

The cases in this week's episode, named by Julia Scotchko and Jen McGillivray.

Sorry, Jen and Julia.

This episode, produced by Jennifer Marmer, we had help in San Francisco from our friend Michelle Mitchell.

Thank you, Michelle.

You can follow Judge John Hodgman on Twitter at Hodgman, and you can follow me at Jesse Thorne.

J-E-S-E-T-H-O-R-N.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H O.

You can also check out the Maximum Fund subreddit at maximumfund.reddit.com.

Lots of great talk there every week.

You can also email us at hodgman at maximumfund.org.

If you've got a case to submit, go to maximumfund.org slash jjho.

That's maximumfund.org slash jjho.

We're particularly looking for cases in the New York City and London, England areas.

So if you're in one of those those places, let us know.

That's all for this week's Judge John Hodgman.

Thanks.

Bye.

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