A Betrayal of Crust

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Betrayal of Crust.

Sam brings the case against his wife, Valerie.

They gave Sam's mother a pie of the month subscription for her birthday last year, but were secretly baking the pies themselves.

Sam's mom still doesn't know they are the bakers behind her beloved pies.

Valerie wants to come clean.

Sam thinks they should keep it a secret.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents the obscure cultural reference.

And the judge, well, he just would not listen.

But then listening ain't what he's paid for.

Because he's paid for just getting his butt sore forever and evermore.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please rise, raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

Yes.

Yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he eats many more than one pie in a given month?

Yes.

Yes.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

Sam and Valerie, you may be seated.

By the way, Bailiff Jesse, only savory pies.

You know that I hate all sweets.

So I just eat, I just eat bacon and sausage pies, bacon, egg, and cheese pies, I call them.

You know, I just saw my old friend Mike Mitchell from the sketch comedy group The Birthday Boys in the great podcast, The Dough Boys podcast.

Sure.

And

I had a nice conversation with him about a sketch the Birthday Boys used to do where they would put a pie on top of a ladder and they would all come in.

There was like nine of them.

They would all come in together dressed like 1950s 12-year-olds.

And then one of them would just go, oh, gotta get that pie.

That would have been a good obscure cultural reference.

I also passed over the great, indeed legendary, Paul F.

Tompkins routine, Cake vs.

Pie.

Too obvious.

From his amazing album, Freak Wharf,

though everyone should go out and buy it and listen to Spontania Nation, his podcast.

But you hit the nail on the pie head.

That doesn't make any sense.

But you're right, Jesse.

That would be too obvious.

I'm sure Sam and Valerie would have gotten that.

But we have given you both an incredible advantage.

We have ruled out two pieces of culture.

I think there are, in life, 75 pieces of culture, at least on this podcast there are.

We've ruled out two.

Now, can you guess for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, Sam or Valerie,

what was the origin of the piece of culture that I quoted as I entered the fake courtroom?

Valerie, you have been brought to this court by your husband, Sam, so you get to guess first or, if you wish, make Sam guess first.

Which shall you do?

I will make Sam guess first.

Classic coward's option, Valerie.

I'm sorry.

Sorry to call you a coward, but that's the way it goes.

Sam,

you have to guess first.

What is your guess?

I don't think this is it, but I'm going to guess the John Travolta movie Michael.

Interesting.

And why that?

There's a scene in it where one of the characters,

oh, I'm blinking on the actor's name right now, sings a song about Pi.

I see.

And you're the human who saw that movie?

Yes.

I always wanted to meet you.

All right, we'll put that guess in the guest book.

Valerie,

you have heard your husband's guess.

What is your guess?

I have no idea.

Some form of Lewis Carroll literature, perhaps?

Lewis Carroll literature.

Right continent, wrong answer.

Indeed, all guesses are wrong, because I was quoting a song that I have now heard exactly one time

called Only a Roach

by the band Humble Pie from their 1970 album, Humble Pie.

And I would have read more of the lyrics, but guess what?

Rock and Roll is...

dirty.

And this is a family-friendly podcast.

And I think

there was no other part of this this song that I could read to you.

Rock and roll is very dirty, you guys, and that's why I never listened to it as a kid, and I don't listen to it now.

I only listened, my favorite, you know what my favorite rock song was growing up, Bailiff Jesse Thorne?

What's that?

Eye in the Sky by the Alan Parsons Project.

Oh, wow.

I'm not going to sing it because I might want to use it for a cultural reference.

later on, or maybe I'll sing it at the end of this podcast.

Well, I don't think you need to sing it.

I think everyone is already singing it inside their hearts.

Everyone knows that one?

Yeah, it's one of those songs heard around the world.

You know,

I like that band because he named the project after himself.

He was the project.

Yeah.

Aren't we all a work in progress?

Exactly so.

Well, certainly that band is.

All right, Valerie and Sam.

You guys are both, you are nefarious.

You are nefarious liars.

You have lied

to your slash mother-in-law, Valerie.

Is it your mom who is being betrayed or your mother-in-law?

It is my mother-in-law, Sam's mom.

And Sam, you have brought this case to me

because your wife has been lying to your mom about pies.

Tell me a little bit about that.

All right.

So my mom's birthday is in the summer.

Last year, we wanted to get her a pie of the month club.

Hang on, Sam.

Hang on.

What specifically is her birthday?

It is June 17th.

June

17th.

I just want to put that in my calendar.

In case I rule in one of your favors, I'm going to, well, either way, I'm going to send her a card.

I've decided.

Baked inside a pie.

All right, go on.

Yeah, so we wanted to get her a pie of the month club, but we couldn't really find one in our price range.

Valerie had the idea that we could bake the pies ourselves and give them to her.

I

was on board with this and thought that we were going to be able to do that.

Very thoughtful.

Classic child gift to parent.

This card entitles you to one hug.

I can't afford to get that electric foot massager for you, so this card entitles you to one free foot massage.

Can't buy the thing?

You make it yourself.

That's wonderful.

And you guys are 13?

No, no, a bit older than that.

I'm 30.

You're 30 years old.

All right, lovely.

And by the way, it's a wonderful gesture.

And in preparation for this podcast, I did price some pie of the month clubs, and they are quite pricey.

So I am not surprised you went this way.

It's a wonderful gesture that

you suggested, Valerie.

And are you a baker?

We both are.

We're both bakers.

Both amateur bakers.

All right.

And who cooked up the idea to lie to your mom and say that it was not you who was doing this?

That would be Valerie.

I thought that we would be forthright and say, hey, we're going to bake you a pie each month.

She said that my mom, being overly polite, might refuse that.

So her words were, and I quote, if we're going to do it, we're going to heist it.

And that's where we came up with the name Heist Pies.

Heist Pies is the name of your fictitious pie company.

And Valerie, you thought that she would be too polite or you just wanted to lie to your mother-in-law?

You just wanted to trick her?

I thought she would be too polite and she would just refuse it.

Oh, who would turn away a pie?

Is there any reason

for you to suspect that if you gave her a homemade pie once a month, she would go,

I refuse.

I cannot accept your generosity.

I don't want your pie charity.

It's a gift.

We have offered to bake things for her previously, and she said, no, no, don't take the trouble out of your day to do that.

I can just do it myself, or we don't really need it.

Quick question about her politely turning down your baked goods.

Are you guys terrible bakers?

I don't think so.

No, she seemed to really enjoy the pies.

Okay.

All right.

So she's not politely turning you down because you're making garbage pies?

No, not that as we're as far as we're aware.

Sam, is your mom a baker?

Sort of an amateur baker, yeah.

Like she cooked a lot

as we were growing up.

She doesn't quite have the time or energy these days to make a whole lot, but she's still, she's really gotten into cupcakes lately.

So she still does that quite often.

And where do we find you in the world?

Where do you guys live?

We're in Utah.

And your mom is too?

Yes, she is.

She's about 20 minutes away from us.

And she baked a little bit, but it's not like a huge point of pride for her to be baking.

It's not as though there's some rivalry between you and your mom or Valerie and your mom as to who makes the better pies.

No, no, nothing like that's ever come up.

Okay.

So Valerie, truly, you just felt that your mother-in-law would just throw those pies out the window if you tried to shove them out yourself.

You had to come up with a whole scheme, a heist, as you say.

Whose idea was it to call it heist pies?

That would be me as well.

Would you say, Valerie, that Sam did not go along with any of this?

This is all your deception?

No, I think he jumped on board as soon as I said it.

Is that true, Sam?

I think that I took a little bit more convincing than that, but yes, I was on board from an early stage.

So you admit your culpability.

Absolutely.

All right.

And so once the pies started arriving, month by month, starting on June 17th, your mom's birthday, what kind of pies were you making?

What was pie one?

I think it was a peach pie.

No, that was the second month.

The first month was a cherry pie.

Oh, Sam, you've got the log.

You've got the pie log.

Classic pie explaining.

Well, Sam actually sent in some evidence, which is a slide presentation presentation of all of the different,

I guess this is all the fake literature that you included with the pies when they arrived.

Yeah, we wanted to include instructions for how to prepare them, how to thaw them and such.

Right, and this is a pretty professional-looking piece of literature that you included.

It's nicely designed.

And I have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven pies altogether.

Is that correct?

No, the first one is just sort of a certificate that says that she will be receiving pies, and then the other six.

Oh, I see her.

You have been enrolled in our Pie of the Month Club.

You will receive dangerously delicious, fresh, baked pies baked with fresh seasonal ingredients.

And there's a wonderful illustration of a pie chef holding two pies with a little chef's head on and a robber's mask because it's heist pies.

Who drew that little thing?

Honestly, it's the baker's clip art.

I just sort of

did the mask around the eyes.

Oh, okay, cool.

Well, it looks great.

Thank you.

Very good.

And so the pies that I see registered here in the log, Valerie, in case your memory needs some jogging.

Cherry pie made with hand-picked locally grown morello cherries.

Then came peach pie, specifically diamond peach pie, made with super sweet locally grown Utah's own diamond princess peaches.

And then an apple pie.

and then a ginger jack-o'-lantern pie and then

uh

what's the oh pecan utah grown pecan pie and then finally a holiday pie which is a chocolate caramel torte i noticed no satsuma pie in there of the favorite of the court those are not local to utah so you made them all with local fruits except the chocolate one yes except right good uh these are some pretty cool sounding pies and some pretty professional looking literature and well-done copy.

What do you guys do for a living aside from deceive older women?

I'm a social worker at a community and mental health center.

And I do regulatory affairs.

Regulatory affairs.

What is that?

So that means I look at labels and formulas and register.

cosmetics and supplements in other countries.

Oh, you're charged with keeping them honest.

Yes.

Making sure that a company isn't illegally selling foodstuffs, for example, unless they're properly regulated.

Yes.

Seems like you're acting out a bandit fantasy of illegally selling some pies.

Finally, getting your transgressive fantasy out.

by foisting pies on your mom or in-law.

Something like that.

So this ruse was never discovered?

Not exactly, no.

My dad suspected it from the beginning, that we were the ones behind it.

But other than that, no one really suspected it now.

Are you sure that no one really suspected it?

How did your dad express his suspicion?

So he asked if we made the pies.

He asked a lot about heist pies and said that he couldn't find anything about them online,

which made sense since we made it up entirely and bothered to create a website for it.

Yeah, just repeatedly, pretty much every month, he would ask us if we were behind it or who was behind it.

You didn't even create a website?

I'm a social worker.

I don't know how to create a website.

Valerie,

are you like one of those serial killers that's trying to get caught?

We did have a Google page for it, for what that's worth.

What do you mean, a Google Hangout town, whatever?

We had an email.

Oh, yeah, you do have an email here.

If you have any questions or comments, send them to heistpies at gmail.com.

By the way, I hope you're still monitoring that email address because I suspect you're going to get a lot of emails now.

I'm aware of that.

Did you ever receive an email from your dad, Sam, saying, who is this really?

No, my mom did send an email after the apple caramel pie cookies saying that she really enjoyed those and responded back to that in character.

And that was the only thing that we've ever gotten in that email account.

Who responded back in character?

That was me.

What was the character you created?

Just basically said that we're glad that she enjoyed them and keep on looking forward to more dangerously delicious baked goods and I don't remember the exact wording, but something along those lines.

Valerie, do you really think your mother-in-law doesn't know that this is you too?

I don't think she does.

I think her husband knows that it's us, but I think that she wants to believe that it's another company.

And she's recommended it to other people as well, so I don't think she thinks it's us out of our kitchen.

And what happens when those people come back to your mother-in-law and go, you know, we sent them an email and they never replied.

They don't have...

a website.

Even worse, they don't have a website, but they have a Google Plus page, which sounds terrifying.

Have you lost your mind, old woman?

What's wrong with you?

There's no such place.

Well, so far that hasn't been an issue.

I think Sam told her that they went out of business, and so that's how he's been handling any questions that come to him about where the pie makers are.

Sam, you're the one who wants to come clean.

Is that correct?

That is not correct.

Oh, excuse me.

I misunderstood.

That makes more sense because you are not only not coming clean, but twisting yourself into knots to keep this illusion going and lying to your father's face.

And my mother's face, yes.

And your mother's face.

And Valerie, you want to come clean at this point.

Is that correct?

Yes, I do.

What is motivating you now

to

undo what you have done?

Well, from the beginning, I thought we would just tell her at the end of it because she couldn't reject it anymore.

And we also have Thanksgiving coming up, and we are hosting Thanksgiving, and we'd like to make some pies.

Well, I'd liked us to make some pies.

And also,

his father is getting more and more mocked by the other members of his family for being like senile.

So, I think it would be good for us to say something.

Specifically, around the issue of being suspicious about you guys making these pies?

Yeah.

So, so this is now turned into a vast inadvertent gaslighting of your father-in-law because he knows the truth, but everyone around him is going like, no, no, pop-pop, you're wrong.

And

he knows there's poison in those chemtrails up there, but no one will believe him.

And you,

you, Sam, are keeping it from him.

Yes, we both are, yes.

I know right now, but in a moment,

I'm going to reach a verdict about whether or not to rule in your favor, Sam, and to keep the deception going, or rule in Valerie's favor and make you call your mom right now.

So if you don't want to do that,

what is your reason for wanting to continue the lie?

I mean, my main reason is that I feel like the damage is already done.

We've already committed to the lie.

We talked about this when things ended, and we both mutually decided

to

continue the lie and not tell them

just because my mom was so overjoyed when she found out that she was getting a pie at the month club and was sad to see it go.

And

frankly, I never really lied to my mom on this large of a scale by far.

So I feel like that would be really

upsetting for her.

So, Sam, what's the biggest lie you've told your mom before?

Oh, geez.

I think there was one time in high school where

I was

doing a play with

like going around to elementary schools talking about how to cope with death.

And then we got home much earlier than expected.

And instead of going back to school, I just sort of hung out at the house for a while.

And yeah, deceived her about that as well.

Were you some kind of

junior social worker?

That's what I was going going to say.

At any time, were you a member of the social workers teen auxiliary?

Pretty much.

My name's Sam of Utah.

I'm a child social worker.

Hello, everyone.

It's Sam of Utah.

Children, I'm your child grievance counselor.

Wow, that's some heavy stuff that you did.

Yeah, lied about playing hookie for a whole afternoon.

Well, wait a minute.

Did you actually go to schools as part of a theater project to talk about dealing with death, or was that your invention?

No, I did do that in high school for a year or so.

Right.

But then you used that as an excuse to blow off an entire afternoon.

Yes.

Okay.

What did you do during the afternoon?

Hard drugs?

I honestly don't remember.

I think I was terrified of anyone coming home, so I was probably just hiding in my room and being very quiet, reading maybe.

I don't know.

This all sounds really lame in retrospect.

You didn't take the opportunity to drink a glass of rosé and listen to some dirty rock and roll like humble pie?

I did not know.

And did your mom ever find out that you had blown off that day?

No, I don't think she did.

I wonder whether she'll find out today.

Are you an only child?

No, no, I'm the youngest of seven children.

Right.

I forgot you were in Utah.

I apologize.

So what are you afraid your mom will say or feel when or if you tell her that you lied about pie.

You told a pie lie

I think that she'll be really sad that I lied to her and didn't tell her the truth earlier, I guess.

Valerie, let's say that she is really sad and hurt and betrayed.

Is there a greater good that is served by revealing the lie to her now?

I don't know if it's a greater good per se, but we could actually start the company Heist Pies and sell pies.

So we could just say, you were kind of our first test subject and we just didn't want to talk about it, so it wasn't a big deal.

So I feel like there are ways that we can present it, that it won't hurt her feelings.

You're going to lie about the lie?

It's not lying.

It's just kind of saying that we were thinking about it.

We did think about maybe doing it as a business.

Valerie, is it the case that you feel that you need to unburden yourself emotionally or you just want to start cooking some Diamond Peaches pies up for the Thanksgiving and not get caught?

Both of those things.

I'm actually not a great liar.

I mostly just avoid things if I can.

And I feel like if we have a pie that's distinctive, like the pumpkin ginger pie at Thanksgiving and anybody asks me any questions, I'm going to get flustered and just, it's just going to be a bad thing.

And she's going to find out anyway.

And I feel like if we plan to tell her, it will be less hurtful than if it just comes out somehow.

So you're afraid that you'll be sitting there at Thanksgiving and your father-in-law is going to be like,

you made this pie, didn't you?

And then what will you say?

And then I'll be flustered.

He's done that last time and I was like, no, I don't know what you're talking about.

And basically had to run away, but I can't run away from my own Thanksgiving dinner.

He accused you at dinner?

He has accused me at dinner before.

Tell me what he said.

We bought her a new pie of the month from an actual company this last year, and he was like,

did you win the lottery or something no we just saved up this year

okay

so you there's a whole new pie of the month thing and she started noticing hey there's a difference these pies are actually coming in packaging

and actually in the mail and not just showing up on my windowsill with a postcard attached to them

something like that except His father still thinks that we're the ones who made them.

And so every once in a while after she gets a pie, she'll be like, hey, Sam.

Hey, Valerie, did you guys make this pie?

I still think you made this pie.

Have you guys thought at all about switching fully over to home run brand hand pies?

I think that would be sustainable in the long term.

I mean, you could just do that indefinitely.

Those things cost like 25 cents at the corner store.

We hadn't really considered that.

We were looking for something of a more elegant pie to present her with.

Well, what about that?

But you put a ribbon on it.

Jesse, you sure do know how to pretty up a hand pie.

I've always said that about you.

I learned in prison.

Did she notice a difference between the

new pie of the month and old homemade?

I did it in shop class myself, Ma Pie of the Month Club.

She did.

She says they aren't as good as the last ones.

Yeah, and these ones aren't presented as heist pie.

There's a different company.

Yeah, a real company.

Right.

Yeah.

Were you pleased with their quality?

I've only tried one of them.

It was pretty good, yeah.

Does your father, Sam, think that you're that you made the second round of pies as well?

Valerie's nodding yes.

I'm not sure on that.

He might.

Valerie, let me just remind you this is a non-visual medium, so if you want to jump in with a yes, you can go ahead and say it.

Okay.

Valerie.

Is your gaslighting of your father-in-law now extend to him thinking that professional pies are being made by you?

He does think that, yes.

Circles within circles.

You're driving your father-in-law mad, you realize.

I do realize that, which is why I think we should tell them the truth.

Do you think he's very distressed, or do you think he actually gets some pleasure, Sam, on his little detective hunt?

I think he's very pleased with himself that he thinks that he has this, well, has this all figured out, basically, except for the part where he thinks that we're making the new batch of pies, but

he seems very smug whenever he accuses us.

Why don't you just take him aside and and say, Dad, don't tell mom, but you're right.

He's not good at keeping secrets.

I see.

How long will this deception last, Sam, if I were defined in your favor?

Could it ever be revealed or would it go with you to your graves?

We had specifically discussed taking it with us to our graves.

I mean, maybe years from now.

We could bring it up if like the issue has died down and we could say at some distant holiday, hey, here's a pie.

And by the way, we baked all those pies years ago for the heist pies that you received for your birthday.

But don't you think

letting the deception linger longer makes the betrayal greater?

Possibly, yes.

I sort of feel, though, that if it's in the more distant past, then it won't really matter as much.

Like, they'll have forgotten about it.

You have to decide right now.

It's grave or nothing.

You already are adept at thinking about death and processing grief.

It's take it to the grave or nothing, Sam.

Which is it going to be?

And I would prefer to take it to the grave.

Take it to the grave.

Except it's not possible.

Valerie, why is it not possible?

Because we have too many people who know about it.

We used friends to deliver the pies.

We bake pies all the time.

At some point, one of us is going to slip up and they're going to find out.

We live in the world of like internet.

Like it's not going to go with us to our graves.

Someone is going to say something.

But you know what you have to do, Valerie.

You have to murder all those people.

That's what you and if I find in Sam's favor, you're going to have to go out and murder

all of the people who helped or know in any way.

Can I just concede?

Concede?

Yes.

Once a teenage social worker, always a teenage social worker.

You know the teenage social worker's first pledge.

We shan't murder to keep a secret.

No, you may not concede, Sam.

You may not concede.

All right, Valerie.

You ready?

You ready to go all the way?

No, you're not ready to go all the way.

You want to reveal it before

one of your so-called friends rats you out to get something.

Yes.

Snitches.

One of those pie snitches.

I I understand your motivation now.

I understand the crux of this.

You know it's going to come out.

You know it's going to come out and your mother-in-law is going to hate you.

Yes.

You want to get out in front of this thing.

I'm telling you, you want to get out in front of this thing.

That's what they always say in police interrogations.

The longer you don't confess,

the worse it's going to go for you.

You understand that.

You have a cell phone with you?

Not with me right now, no.

Does anyone?

I have one here, yeah.

All right.

You know your mom's telephone number?

I do, yes, but she doesn't really get signal at her workplace, and I'm not, I think I have her work phone number, but I'm not 100% sure.

Well, you can leave a voicemail for her?

Yes.

All right.

I haven't made up my mind yet,

but I want to be ready when I do.

So now I'm going to go into my gingerbread chambers and eat a Jamaican beef patty and ponder your case.

In a moment, I'll be back with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Valerie, how are you feeling about your chances?

I don't know.

I think Sam may have some good arguments for not telling anybody.

So, not great.

Are you prepared to commit the murders if Sam refuses?

I'm not prepared to commit the murders, but I feel like if he's the one who's dedicated to taking it to the grave, he should be in charge of any and all murders.

I mean, the truth is, you guys aren't even doing your own dirty work anyway.

Just get the friends who delivered the pies to murder each other.

Set them up against each other down by the wharf.

I guess the wharf is on the Great Salt Lake or something.

And just have them crossfire until everybody's dead.

And then if there's anybody left, just give them some of that radioactive dust that they use to kill Russian spies.

That's an option.

Sam, how do you feel about your chances?

Not great.

I feel like the fact that the judge is asking if I can leave my mom a voicemail is very foreboding.

But on the other hand, I am trying to defend lying to my mother indefinitely, so I'm really okay with, well, more or less okay with not winning in this case.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

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It was made in, made in.

But made in isn't just for professional chefs.

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And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with made-in cookware.

It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable than some of the other high-end brands.

We're both big fans of the carbon steel.

I have a little carbon steel skillet.

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And I know that she can, you know, she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot.

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It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

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I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be getting back to my beloved made-in entree bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable because they sell it directly to you.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made in, made in.

For full details, visit madeincookware.com.

That's M-A-D-E-I-N Cookware.com.

Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

Hey, I'm back.

You know what the best policy is, you guys?

Lying to your mom's face?

Oh, no, that's not how that saying goes.

Honesty.

Honesty is the best policy.

Why?

Because lies don't get kept.

Pies tell the tale.

That's not a saying.

Yeah, it is.

That's the the second rule of the junior social workers.

Well, I will say

that as impressive

as the materials that you designed to go along with heist pies,

the pies

and the pie literature do tell the tale for these reasons.

One,

it's called heist pies.

It's right there in the name.

Thievery of trust.

trust.

Two,

this looks good.

This is nicely designed.

It's got a cute illustration.

And I looked up, as I say, some Pie of the Month Club stuff.

And let me tell you, people are selling Pies of the Month, whether it's a big company or a small company, they have terrible, terrible taste in graphic design.

No one would ever buy this as a professional operation.

It looks too good.

Three, those pies

probably,

you know, have the beautiful irregularity of homemade

baked goods.

The lack of uniformity,

the rough edges, the sunken centers, the little bits of burn on the edge that remind you that a human being that you know made this for you, not some corporate bakery somewhere else in the world.

I'm going to tell you this.

If your mom

does not already know that you made these pies, she's lying to herself

in order to spare your feelings.

And meanwhile,

Sam's poor dad

is in his den with a huge bulletin board

full of index cards with threads connecting them, one to the other.

How far does this thing go?

He's trying to get up on the wire, but he can't get the warrants.

He's got your names.

He's got on him one bulletin board.

He's got heist pies in another bulletin board he's got the names of all your friends and another bulletin board

and there are two possibilities either your dad is slowly going to descend into madness as what is obviously true

is told

to his face as untrue by his own blood and blood by law

and sadness and depression knowing that he's being lied to, but being unable to prove it.

Or

dad's going to crack this case.

He's going to break one of your friends.

Take him for a ride one day down along with Salt Lake.

Threaten them or maybe just intimidate them.

They're going to freak out and they're going to rat on you guys.

And then the gig will be up.

It's going to come out.

You never should have lied.

Well, I kind of think it's cute that you lied.

You should have revealed up the last one like you planned.

There's no reason not to.

It is a harmless, fun,

and on its face, obvious deception.

Only since you've kept it, since last holiday season, has it grown and festered and deranged your family and turned you against one another.

And it cannot go on.

It cannot.

be revealed a year from now like Sam suggested.

It either has to go to your graves or come out into the open right now.

And I think you understand where I'm going with this, Sam.

Yes, I do.

You don't want to keep a secret from your mom like this

for the rest of your life and murder all your friends?

Come on.

There's no way it can happen.

So obviously, I mean, I don't, you've presented no compelling evidence that this would be so upsetting to your mom that she would not forgive you.

And to prove it, you're going to call her right now.

You're going to tell her the truth.

And you're also going to tell her that you played hookie that day

when you were supposed to be helping teenagers deal with death.

And worst of all, we're going to make you admit the bottom-line truth.

While you were playing hookie, you were reading in your room.

You you just have to admit i drank a whole glass of milk and i liked it

i wasn't helping kids deal with death ma because i was dealing with my life

you don't have to phrase it exactly that way but valerie are you is your husband in your eyes eye line right now can you see him i can

all right i want you to tell me what he's doing

Go ahead, Sam.

He's reaching for his phone right now.

He looks like he's unlocking it.

I think he's looking for his mother's phone number.

Should I put it on the speaker?

Sure.

Wait, Kill on Twitter.

This is Claudia.

Hi, Mom.

This is Sam.

Hey, Sam, how are you?

Pretty good.

How are you doing?

I am fine, thank you.

He makes me a little nervous when you

Is everything okay?

Yeah, so mom, so the reason that we're calling is that I have a confession to make.

So Valerie and I were the ones that were behind heist pies.

We baked the pies ourselves and had our friends deliver them to you.

Because we love you and we want you to be able to do that.

You mean dad was right all this time?

Dad was right all this time.

Tim, we're not telling him.

It's hard to live with him when he is, you know, right.

Really?

They were just so amazing.

Thank you.

Yeah, it was us the entire time.

Yeah.

And I'm also

have to confess that at one point in high school, when I was doing the

play for elementary school kids about how to cope with death, We got done early and I played hookie and read quietly in my room for the afternoon.

Okay, so is this truth or gear that you have to make all these confessions?

No, I'm on a podcast, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, and I have been ruled against, so I am having to confess all of this to you.

Ah, okay.

Okay, sounds fascinating.

Alrighty.

Well, good.

Thanks for sharing.

But I would, I really, those apple pie thingies, those were amazing.

You're going to have to make me some more of those, just saying.

I will gladly make you some more as pennants.

Oh, my gosh.

So amazing.

I'm so impressed.

But like I say, we're not telling dad.

Okay.

I know that your mom can't hear me, but just tell her.

Tell her I love her.

All right.

We love you, mom, and Judge John Hodgman loves you, too.

Oh, thanks, Judge.

Nice of you to have my son confess.

All right.

Love you a lot, Sam.

All right, we got to go.

I'll let you get back to work.

Okay, thank you.

Bye-bye.

First of all, so your mom is fantastic.

Do you feel better?

I do, yeah.

She took that better than I was imagining she would.

So that's nice.

Yeah.

And

that wasn't, that wasn't, you hadn't set her up in any way.

No, no, I had tried my darndest to make sure that she would never know this.

Yeah, you know what?

Moms are resilient creatures.

They know they she probably knew that you had cut high school that day.

Let me tell you.

Valerie, how do you feel?

I know this is normally, Jess, you can jump in, but we all shared this moment.

I kind of feel like I want to hear what they have to say now.

Yeah, this is really beautiful.

I feel good.

I'm a little afraid that she's going to be upset at us forever now, but I'm glad she knows.

Yeah.

She just wanted to get back to her work and tell you guys you made good pies.

And you know what, you guys?

You made good pies.

And you know what else?

Your mom doesn't want your father to know, Sam, so you have to keep that lie forever.

Take it to your grave.

Honor thy mother.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Sam Valerie, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you for having us.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years i know where this has ended up but no

no you would be wrong we're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing yeah you don't even really know how crypto works The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcast.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So, let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lom.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

What is a Jack-O'Lantern pie?

I think that is a pumpkin pie,

but with triangles cut out of the middle?

Maybe it's a pie cooked in a jack-o'-lantern and it's leaking out of the eye holes.

You know how there's this constant autumn debate over what's better, a pumpkin pie or a sweet potato pie?

There is no debate.

What are you talking about?

There is a debate.

I think it breaks down along cultural lines.

Okay.

But I'm going to go ahead and say don't like either of those pies.

Both gross to me.

Pumpkin pie is one of the rare, I mean,

with great deference to Paul F.

Tompkins, who comes to a different conclusion.

I like pie much more than cake because, as you know, I abhor all sweets.

I'm currently in my gingerbread chambers, which I hate.

I hate having these dessert cases where I have to sit in here in my icing chair.

But pumpkin pie is pretty savory.

It's pretty spicy and savory.

And pie in general has that,

I'll eat that crust all the live-long day, but give me a Jamaican beef patty maybe split that open put some mozzarella cheese on top pizza parlor style and I'm very happy I'd like to have that for my dinner will you make it for me Jesse man I had a banana cream pie from pie and burger in Pasadena California the other day

man did I enjoy that I like banana things now apparently

Is that a new thing for you?

As an adult, I think I've come to like banana foods.

I mean, I've always liked bananas fine, but I like banana-flavored things like banana pudding and banana cream pies, banana meringue pies.

I like a banana cream pie with it's got some nail wafers on top.

The only thing I don't like is

banana bread, for which I got into a ton of trouble on Twitter the other day.

Yeah, you know, I noticed that.

I don't understand.

Like,

banana bread to me just...

looks and tastes like compacted rotten garbage.

Yes, that's exactly how I feel.

I feel like it literally is other people's garbage.

Like it's like a reaction to people who have a stack of bananas and they're like, oh, these are going to, these are going to go completely bad.

I better use them for something.

I couldn't get my act together to eat this food before it's spoiled.

I'm going to trick myself into eating it by adding sugar and flour.

Many a time in my home, I'll come across a pile of rotting bananas and I'm like, may I throw this garbage away?

And one of the people who lives with me in my home says, No, I'm going to turn that into banana bread.

I'm like, Oh, and then five days later, it still hasn't happened.

Peel the bananas and put them in your freezer and use them for smoothies.

That's what I say.

Yeah, there you go.

But I was, I, it really took me by surprise.

People like what they like, and I can understand why some people like banana bread, but the level of vitriol that you experienced on Twitter, people defending that garbage brick, really takes me by surprise.

Judge Hodgman, I want to do some follow-ups on a past case.

However, before we do that, let's talk about where we're going to be across the country because we've got some exciting stuff to talk about.

Before we talk about us, Jesse, I'd like to talk about our friend Josie Long, the great comedian.

We just saw her warm up her new one-person show in London when we were at the London Podcast Festival.

It's called Something Better, and it's coming now to New York City, to the Barrow Street Theater.

It's a big off-Broadway run.

I cannot wait to see it, and nor should you.

And you don't have to wait much longer.

It starts on November 19th, and you can check out the dates and ticket links at josielong.com.

I highly recommend this show.

The day after this podcast comes out, you are doing your Vacation Land show in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

That's November 17th.

This must be one of the very last Vacation Lands.

There's very few on the docket right now, right?

Yeah, Vacation Land is the one-man show that I've been doing all around the country

of the United States and Canada, and I'm very proud of it.

But this is the last performance for the foreseeable future.

I've got some Vacation Land news that I cannot yet reveal, but will soon.

But I'm not going to be performing it for the foreseeable future.

And indeed, this is my last public appearance this year.

So I hope you'll come and see me in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania tomorrow night if you're listening on the day of this release.

No matter where you are in this great nation, Max FunCon tickets go on sale the day after Thanksgiving, the Friday after Thanksgiving, and not just Max FunCon tickets for Lake Arrowhead here in Southern California, but also for Max FunCon East in the Poconos.

You can find more information on that at maxfuncon.com.

They do tend to sell out, so

mark your calendar for the day after Thanksgiving to get your Max FunCon tickets.

And we also have two exciting things coming up in Chicago, Illinois.

For one thing, on the 17th, which is also the day after this comes out, I will be bringing Bullseye along with our sister podcast in the maximumfun.org network, Lady to Lady, to the Promontory Theater in Chicago.

Dwayne Kennedy, who's one of my favorite stand-up comics in the world, is going to do some stand-up.

And we will have some music from Split Single featuring members of the Bob Mould Band and Superchunk.

Oh, wow.

Tickets and information at maximumfun.org.

And here's a big announcement for Chicagoans.

You and I are coming February 11th,

along with the Flop House, Stop Podcast Yourself, Jordan Jesse Go, and Tites and Fights.

It is going to be an extravaganza.

It's called Very, Very Fun Day, February 11th in Chicago.

Mark your calendars, tell your friends, fly in from across this great nation, a one-day super spectacular festival at Talya Hall in Chicago, February 11th.

Now, Jesse, I didn't even know that it was at Talia Hall, which is a beautiful venue.

Have you been there?

I know you have been there, right?

Haven't you performed there?

I did Vacation Land there.

It was one of my favorite stops on the tour.

Chicago audiences are fantastic, but that hall is

a wonderful place to perform.

I'm very excited about seeing everyone on February 11th in Chicago.

We also have a letter here.

So episode 283, Pile of Pits, generated a lot of mail.

And that was in part because one of the cases

was about whether or not it was okay to throw biodegradable food waste into nature from a car window.

Your ruling, Judge Hodgman, I don't know if you remember this, was that it was okay as long as the driver wasn't throwing it.

Yeah.

But a lot of people said I was wrong.

A number of listeners have said that you were wrong, that there was danger that we didn't consider.

For one thing, it puts animals in danger of being hit by a car.

And Megan from Ottawa sent us a passage from an article on the Humane Society's website called The Deadly Truth About Trash.

Here's what it says.

Litter is also an indirect killer.

Tossed from car windows, it puts curious animals in the path of oncoming vehicles.

Robbie Fern, director of the Humane Society's Wildlife Center in Cape Cod, Massachusetts, says, for years I would throw my apple cores and other food out of the window of my car, thinking it's going to compost and go back into the wild.

I never considered the fact that it's actually drawing animals who might then get hit by a car.

The roadside garbage has a domino effect, Fern says.

Quote, in the case of raptors, the garbage attracts rodents and then the bird goes after this prey and gets hit by a car.

Thank you, Megan, everybody else who wrote in to help make this important point.

And frankly, anything that's going to attract raptors uh is a concern for me um i say dinos should stay in the past uh

i i may i put vaseline on all my doorknobs for this very reason let me say i'm i appreciate everyone writing in i'm sorry that robbie fern had difficulty throwing apple cores far enough from his car you should Sorry, you can't throw real far, Robbie.

Let me specify that when I'm in a passenger seat and I'm getting rid of an apple core, I am hucking that thing far into the woods.

That's the fun of it.

I'm not laying it down gently by the roadside,

but

I understand what everyone is saying.

And if you want to be extremely cautious and do what the Humane Society tells you to do, yeah, okay, keep your foods inside.

And then you can chuck them into the woods on a hike or whatever.

Is that going to attract dinosaurs, Jesse?

Well, I mean, there's woodsy dinosaurs.

And then, of course, you've got to consider the flying lizards and bird-like dinosaurs of the skies.

And then ichthyosaurs, that's fish-type lizards.

I think overall, the best thing to do is just grease up those doorknobs and stay home.

That, I think, is the new sign-off for this podcast.

Let's give it a try.

You go ahead, Jesse.

Special thanks this week to David Devony.

And we think that's how it's pronounced.

Sorry, David, if we just messed it up, at Audio West in Oram, Utah for engineering part of this week's show.

Thanks to Craig Price and Jacob Mallett for naming this week's episode A Betrayal of Crust.

Thanks, guys.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

If you've got a case for Judge John Hodgman, big or small, we judges them all.

Go to maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

That's maximumfund.org slash jjho.

You can find judge john hodgman as well in the new york times magazine, and you can find us online.

Follow us on Twitter at Hodgman and at Jesse Thorne.

Join us on Facebook in the Maximum Fund Facebook group and by liking the Judge John Hodgman page and on Reddit at maximumfund.reddit.com.

And always remember, grease up those doorknobs and stay home.

And don't grease up doorknobs like my brother.

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