In Combat Chambers

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne with my good friend, Judge John Hodgman.

How are you, friend?

I'm looking you right in the eyes.

Yeah, let's lock it in.

Oh, my goodness.

This is one of those wonderful in-chambers episodes where I'm actually literally in a chamber in Los Angeles with my bailiff, Jesse Thorne, a chamber that is lined with styrofoam egg crate stuff.

And

there's a wonderful carpet on the floor and all of it absorbs sound.

And a lot of hidden blades.

What?

What?

Sorry.

I guess I blew it.

Is this one of those combat chambers?

One of those half public radio style podcasting, half fight to the death octagons?

No, this is where we train talented young mutants.

Oh,

it's a danger chamber.

Yes.

Oh, all right, good.

Welcome to the danger chambers.

Okay, let's clear the docket.

We got a case here from Jennifer.

I'd like to file suit against my husband, Tony.

Judge, please rule that our family of three can listen to the Hamilton soundtrack at least once during our upcoming drive from Columbia, Missouri to Yellowstone National Park this summer.

By the way, I decided halfway through the word Missouri to say Missouri.

I naturally say Missouri because my dad, who is from Missouri, says Missouri.

Yep.

And my relatives from Missouri say Missouri.

But every time I say that, a bunch of people from Missouri get mad at me.

So now I'm worried that people who say Missouri instead of Missouri are gonna get mad at me.

You want me to solve this problem for you?

Yeah.

Call it Mousery.

Got it.

During our upcoming drive from Columbia Mousery to Yellowstone National Park this summer, I discovered the musical on your recommendation, and my 12-year-old daughter and I are now obsessed.

Tony refuses to listen to the soundtrack while we're on the wait list for tickets in Chicago.

He thinks it will take away from the experience.

I think a previewing listen is almost mandatory to understand the depth of the lyrics.

Some background.

Tony is a huge Springsteen fan.

I've gone with him to see the boss 20 out of the 30 times he's gone.

Do you know what he does when we take a friend who's never been?

He sends them a CD to listen to beforehand.

And you yelled there because it was in all caps.

I have gone all in on the Springsteen front.

Well, two-thirds in.

It's something great that we share together and is a big part of our marriage.

I ask him to give Hamilton the same chance before we see it.

Please issue a ruling.

This is a very deeply personal case for me, Judge Hodgman.

It is because you are in the Tony camp.

I am

saving yourself.

I am at the eye of a Hamilton hurricane here.

And it's quiet.

Lynn Manuel Miranda, the creator of Hamilton, is a Max Fun supporter.

Yes, he is.

He's a listener to this podcast and my brother, my brother, and me, and many others.

Yeah, he's a personal friend.

And I say that, just saying that, I get butterflies in my stomach.

He might be listening right now.

Yeah, and we're so grateful to have his support, and proud we are of all of them.

Right.

And I

am excited to see the musical Hamilton

at such time as I am in New York, which I have not been except for one.

Basically, what happened is there was just this one tiny brief window where I was in New York.

Yeah.

And Lynn was like, oh, I'll get you tickets, no problem.

But it was just as the first reviews came out, and then it was totally a mess.

He had to call you back.

Yeah, and be like, sorry, I can't get you tickets because I'm, even though I'm the creator of the show, that's how sold out it is right now.

Yeah.

He was very gracious about it.

I'm not complaining.

He's one of the sweetest humans I've ever encountered.

I'm just saying that was the one time I was in New York, and I really want to see the show, but I feel like I want to see the show.

I don't want to hear the show.

And this is something that comes up quite a bit since

I was talking to a fantasy author, I guess it's fair to say, author N.K.

Jemison, who writes in the fantasy genre.

She's got a great book out called The Fifth Season that I Love.

And she was saying to me the other day,

what's your job these days?

And I have a lot of jobs.

I do a little acting.

I do some podcasting here.

Pandemic.

Pandemia.

I do a little light painting and window repair.

But when I really thought about it, I'm like, you know, honestly, N.K.

Jemison, author of the fifth season, for the past four months, my main job has been listening to, thinking about, and talking about Hamilton.

It's pretty much a full-time job.

I get up every morning.

I'm like, what am I going to do about Hamilton today?

I feel like that's the entire cultural establishment of America, right?

Like, I was surprised to hear that she had heard about Hamilton from you, just because I feel like everyone at this point has heard about Hamilton from their toaster.

Oh, yeah, did you get that new Hamilton?

Yeah, exactly.

Toaster's done.

Yeah.

I presume that's a Hamilton joke that I would get if I had seen

or listened to that.

It should have been toast is done.

Got it.

That's for

the hamheads.

That's for the hamheads.

If it were Lafayette, it would be toast is done.

Got it.

The point is, in some ways, I envy you, Jesse,

because this this has been quite a journey for me.

Being in your shoes and being a little bit of a Hamilton skeptic, going, I think I know what this is all about.

Then being told by Trayvon Free,

but when he was still at the Daily Show, saying to me, no, you don't know what it's about.

And I said,

I'll listen to it when I see it.

But then the moment I listened to it, I got caught up in this thing and it has truly been a day-to-day job for me, thinking about it, caring about it.

In some ways, I'm so glad that I've had this in my life, but it would be nice to be as unburdened as you so I could get some of my own work done.

Do you know what I mean?

Right.

That said, I still feel

you do what you want, and Tony, too.

This is what we do in lives.

We do what we want.

That you are making a mistake

in not listening to it for two reasons.

And I'll address this to Tony, and you can decide whether it's applicable to you, Bailiff Jesse.

One is that it's a very lyrically dense show

that grows the more you listen to it in your appreciation of the story.

And that processing all of what's coming at you musically

is

work, pleasurable work enough, especially since you don't have to.

It's good to process that a little bit beforehand so then when you see the show, you can take in a new experience, which is seeing how the music matches up to the movings around parts, which is called acting.

Right.

And what you're doing thereby is doubling your pleasure and doubling your fun like a kind of special gum.

I know what you're talking about.

You're talking about big red.

That's right.

What is it?

Double mint.

No, I know, but the big red jingles in my head now.

Duh, a little closer.

Da-da-da, a little closer.

Something, something, something closer with big red.

Big red freshness lasts right through it.

Your fresh breath goes on and on while you chew it.

Say goodbye a little longer.

Make it last a little longer.

Have fresh breath a little longer with Big Red.

Hamilton.

Yeah, you got it.

Perfect.

You're the new weirdo Yankivic.

The other reason that you can enjoy it before seeing this show is that it's really enjoyable.

Denying yourself that enjoyment in order to preserve it for seeing the show

is, in my mind, the equivalent of saying, I'm not going to listen to the white album until the Beatles are here to perform it for me.

But the white album is not narratively driven.

This is not just the music from the show.

There is nothing in the recording that isn't in the show.

The primal document,

the central document.

That's not entirely true what I said, but it's mostly.

The text in question is a stage performance.

The album is a portion of the stage performance.

That's different from a studio music album.

That is not a document of a live theatrical experience.

But I will say that the album is a very, it's one of the best studio albums that exists, the cast album.

And it is capturing a particular moment in theatrical history that will not exist by the time this thing comes to Chicago.

It will be different.

And it's not just the moment, it's the movement.

It's a Hamilton reference.

Okay.

Because this is a big moment in cultural history as far as I'm concerned.

I thought you had just gotten exponentially more clever.

I'm not as clever as Lynn.

But like, I'm going to tell you right now, and I don't know what your opinion of it is.

Okay.

I feel an obligation to listen to Lemonade.

Right.

Because formation was incredible.

Right.

And it seems to be culturally very important.

Right.

And this is something that I think on many levels, not just creative achievement, but in the moment of theatrical history, in the moment of storytelling, and how stories are being

retold by a new and very different looking generation of our American history.

I think

it's just something that's very special.

I just like it, you guys.

I just like it.

And I don't abide people

who don't want pleasure in their lives.

Now, here's what I'm going to say to Jennifer.

You cannot make your husband listen to it if he wants to preserve himself.

Even if he is a rampant hypocrite for forcing Springsteen lyrics on you before you get to see Springsteen.

Not comparable.

What?

I don't think they're comparable.

Certainly, she's compared them.

Here's what I can say.

You should be grateful at the same time to Hamilton and to your husband because it has revealed just what a narcissist you have married.

People who refuse to listen to Hamilton until they see it are a kind of person who believes that culture doesn't properly exist until they are there to validate it.

This thing can't really be happening until I go and see it.

And what Hamilton in particular is about for me as a creative person

is realizing this doesn't belong to me.

This is so far beyond what I can do creatively, I have to get out of the way.

And that's a hard place for me, the judge, to be, but it is truly a humbling creative enterprise that I am so happy to have put aside my own, I'll see it when I see it, attitude, and instead listened to it, and then listened to it again and again and again and shared it with my family and then spent my children's college education on getting to go see it and then thinking about it all the time.

And it's now my whole life.

You know what this question really made me think about?

Nope.

How come I've never seen Bruce Bringstein?

This seems like he would be great.

I like Bruce Springsteen.

I'm not like a Bruce Bringstein fan, but I think Bruce Bringstein's great.

So I'm making this offer.

Okay.

If anybody wants to take me with them to see Bruce Springsteen, I'll go.

I'll go too.

Really?

Yeah.

But we live 3,000 miles apart.

So it could logistically be complicated.

All we're asking is for one listener

to get tickets to a Bruce Springsteen concert,

fly us both in.

Right.

I would say economy comfort would be fine, but I'd prefer business.

Yeah, no, I'm comfortable with economy plus.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Four three and a half to four star hotel, separate rooms, continental breakfast.

At least like a Hilton.

Yeah.

And tickets on the floor, and we'll go see Bruce Bringstein with you.

Yeah, absolutely.

Pretty good deal.

I'm in.

You know what?

I'd consider just going to see little Stevie.

You got a little Stevie Solo show?

I'll think about it.

I'm not saying I will, but I'm saying I'll think about it.

You're on your own.

Sorry, little Steven.

Here's something from Emily.

I'm a public librarian who helps plan an annual literary festival.

We're at a point now where publishers sometimes send bigger name authors to participate, something our budget wouldn't allow on its own.

Outside of work, I use a popular website to track and rate the books I read.

This helps me remember books I've read, and the ratings help me get catered recommendations of what to pick up next.

I don't use the social media plug-in to the site, but my account still shows my full name.

I read one of the authors, festival authors' latest books and did not particularly care for it.

I recorded that I read it and rated it 2 out of 5.

It was not a bad book, just not for me, and I don't want to be recommended similar literary thrillers.

A month later, I got an email from said author's publicist.

The author had seen my low rating of the book on his website and recognized my name from the festival and felt hurt and not wanted.

They asked me to take down my rating, which I did.

Judge, was it wrong of me to post a low rating of his book, whether or not I knew the author would see it for the record?

I did not.

Should he have thicker skin about these things?

So she's a librarian, and she's begun planning this book festival.

And she invited an author to be at the book festival, and he or she attended the festival, and then she went on a popular reading website and trashed this person's book.

Well, just gave it two out of five stars.

Yeah, that's a failing grade.

And it's the star system.

I wouldn't say that she's planning the festival.

She participates in the planning of the festival.

So what did she say?

Who helps plan an annual literary festival?

It wasn't necessarily that clear of a progression of events.

Yeah.

Well,

what do you think I'm going to say?

Hmm.

That's an interesting question.

I kind of felt like I don't know if the questions were the right questions.

Oh.

That was my feeling about it.

What do you mean?

Well,

I don't know whether these are the two choices, that either the author should have thicker skin or it was wrong of her to post that review.

Oh, no, I think one of those things is true.

Really?

Mm-hmm.

It's a 50-50 now.

Jesse, you know what happens if you guess correctly.

Nothing.

Springsteen tickets.

Oh, wow.

I don't think it was wrong of her to post a low rating of that book,

especially given that she didn't realize that.

Guesses are wrong.

No, well, look,

she knew it was public.

She was putting it out there on the web, and she assigned her name to it.

And I would say that now that the festival is getting bigger and attracting bigger name authors, she learned a lesson, which is that if you are in the job, partly, even if it's not your full-time job, of inviting people to do things,

you have to be careful about trashing them online during your day.

Now, Jesse.

You host a wonderful retreat called the Max Fun Con.

There's one in the West and there's one coming up in the East.

Tickets are on sale for it now.

And your life is inviting people to a combat chamber, a foam-encased chamber of conversation and blade combat, where we are sitting right now.

And then sometimes to these retreats.

Would you go go on to Amazon or this book reading?

We're talking about Goodreads, right?

Let's just say

we're not talking about Goodreads.

Like, you know, if you invited me to Max FunCon and I came, let's say we didn't know each other.

I should interject here.

We presume we're talking about Goodreads.

We could be talking about amiibos, but I'm not 100% sure what amiibos are.

So just want to make that clear.

I'm sure there are many great book websites we could be talking about.

Right.

But I'll tell you, from my point of view, if you invite,

before we really knew each other and you invited me to Max FunCon, and then I discovered that you or someone you worked with gave my book two stars on Goodreads or whatever, I would be like, why did I do this?

Like, no, thank you.

Like, why are you doing this to me?

And I think that it's true we can all have thicker skins, and certainly in the age of the internet, we need to develop it.

I'm not saying the author shouldn't have more of a thicker skin, but Emily, as a librarian, you are a curator of taste and you can recommend or disrecommend books to your patrons in person as much as you like.

But now you are moving into a world of booking of talent.

And I think in general, it's not simply a matter of cowardly self-preservation.

I appreciate that you want to

rate this book low so that you don't get an automatic recommendation of another book like it.

But you were able to find books that you like and disliked before there was Goodreads and algorithms that recommended books to you.

You know, I find that a lot of librarians are really unfamiliar with the book world.

Yeah.

And generally speaking, I use, I'm not going to use the name of this corporation, but it's one of several popular ride-sharing services where you are asked to rate the driver.

It's Dell.

It's amiibos.

But generally speaking, it's like five stars all the the time.

That's how I feel about cultural recommendation karma, or driver recommendation karma.

Because five stars costs you nothing.

And two stars costs somebody something, even if it just causes them pain if they find it.

But it can also, in terms of those drivers, can really affect their livelihood.

And it still costs you nothing.

So while I'm not suggesting that everyone deserves 100% praise all the time, I think that in this world where we're always being constantly asked to rate something, rating something low really accomplishes very little other than putting bad feelings out there in the world.

So, and it's much easier to not rate it at all.

Rating something high accomplishes a lot.

And if you feel genuinely that a book or a movie or whatever requires, has moved you so much that you want to shout about it, that's when five stars is the way to go.

But below that, who cares?

I mean, who cares?

Just you didn't like it.

You don't need to leave a lasting testament of your not liking a thing, unless maybe you have to warn readers against the fact that there's something about this that's so profoundly wrong or disturbing or off-putting that you're willing to place your reputation behind it and write an essay saying, I think this is a messed up piece of work that people shouldn't be near, you know?

That's something that I can really connect with you on because it's something that I've tried to keep in mind in my own work, even as my own work as a cultural critic, that as I've worked on things,

you know, television shows and other collaborative things, I realize how difficult it is to get them right and how a group of super talented, brilliant people can come up with something that's okay

in some cases and how little is gained by saying it's okay.

And I've, for that reason, focused on

trying to think that if I'm going to be critical of something, it should be for a real reason, not just because it didn't do it for me.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean,

mostly everyone's mostly, yeah, publicly.

I mean, what you talk about with your friends.

Yeah, my wife asks me what I thought of a television program that I wasn't nuts about.

I'll just say, hey, you know.

Emily, when you're hanging around

after hours at the library, you know,

having a few martinis in the children's room with your fellow librarians,

just two starry

cool children.

Yeah, just like, you know, midnight rap sessions by the microfiche, by all means, means, say whatever's on your mind.

But when you take a public position,

the thing is that people who make culture and people who make anything generally are just trying to do the best they can, and sometimes it doesn't exactly come together, and sometimes a thing is just not someone's cup of tea.

So when I come across stuff that isn't for me, I just go, not for me, walk away, you know.

That's very fair.

Hey,

maybe this isn't for you, Emily, anymore.

Nate writes, my friend Malcolm and I frequently use the sound from the title of Law and Order to acknowledge dicey situations.

Let's hear that sound.

This would include observing someone being caught in a lie

or running into another person that they've been avoiding.

We've attempted to write the sound out when text messaging, sometimes using asterisks, as in asterisk law and order sound asterisk, but this seems cumbersome.

I would say so.

It's Benedict cumbersome.

What is the correct phonetic spelling of of this sound?

Is it gong gong, dun dun, or should we stick with the trusty law and order sound in asterisks?

Yeah, it's not gong gong.

No.

And it's not dun dun.

It's really not pronounceable.

You know, my friend Brandon Bird,

known as the Internet's painter of light, very gifted painter

from from college.

When we were shortly out of college, he organized an art exhibition on the theme of law and order.

There was a submission by an artist collective out of Europe that I can't remember the name of that was one of the most effective and moving art pieces that I've seen.

It was an extended video montage

of non-narrative moments in Law and Order.

So it was basically just people taking off their eyeglasses.

And it was the most hypnotic, like beautiful, amazing thing that really had something to say about Law and Order.

And anyway, I just feel like I can't think about Law and Order without thinking about that piece.

Two stars.

Okay, fair enough.

I say

there's got to be,

here's what you do.

There's no way to spell it phonetically.

And Law and Order sound is too cumbersome.

So

police car emoji, gavel emoji.

Yeah, that's pretty solid.

Yeah.

I was going to suggest some slashes and then his vocal fry rails.

Yes.

No, but those have a very specific

usage in Judge John Hodgman hieroglyphic language.

If there's not a gavel emoji, someone make one.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfun.org, and they are all your favorites.

If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic.

Just go to maximumfund.org/slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

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It's true.

The brace short ribs, made in, made in.

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That heritage pork chop that you love so much, you got it.

It was made in, made in.

But made in isn't just for professional chefs.

It's for home cooks too.

And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with made in cookware.

It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable than some of the other high-end brands.

We're both big fans of the carbon steel.

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It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

And it will last a long time.

And whether it's griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware, I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be coming back.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

Jesse, the reviews are in

My new super soft hoodie from Quince that I got at the beginning of the summer is indeed super soft.

People cannot stop touching me and going, that is a soft sweatshirt.

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Everything I've ordered from Quince has been nothing but solid, and I will go back there again and buy that stuff with my own money.

John, you know what I got from Quince?

I got this beautiful linen double flap pocket shirt that's sort of like an adventure shirt.

And I also got a merino wool polo shirt.

Oh, it's like a it's like a mid-gray, looks good underneath anything, perfect for traveling.

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You know what I mean?

It's a stink-rejecting technology, John.

It says, get thee behind me, stink.

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Here's something from Greg.

My wife, Krista, is a prodigious car sleeper and generally falls asleep as soon as we hit the highway.

I don't usually mind.

However, if we're making a long drive at night and I begin to be lulled to sleep by the monotony of the Ohio Turnpike, one of the most monotonous of turnpikes,

I don't have anyone around to keep me awake.

My wife doesn't drive, so I'm responsible for 100% of the driving duties.

I I feel that it is the passenger's sworn duty to help keep the driver awake.

Please compel my otherwise thoughtful and caring partner to stay awake.

The monotony of the Ohio turnpike.

Picturing this guy in the car driving in the dead of night on the Ohio turnpike and falling asleep and killing himself and his wife

is

the image I will fall asleep to tonight.

I have a feeling.

Dude.

It helps me to go to sleep to go to my happy place.

Yeah, right.

My God.

So what do you do?

Where are you going in the middle of the night in Ohio anyway?

Yeah.

Akron?

Could be.

Yeah, it's possible.

Columbus?

Yep.

Columbus is the capital.

The natty?

Don't know that.

Cincinnati?

Oh, Cincinnati.

Is that what it's called?

The natty?

Yeah.

You ever have the natty five-way chili?

Is it really good?

No, I've never had it.

I've never had it.

Do you know what the five-way chili is?

You've never been to the great state of Ohio.

You've never been to Ohio, home state of Rhea Butcher, our car expert?

I know.

You would think that I would have been there, if only, to visit Bootsy Collins, but no.

Ohio is a pretty special place.

I've been to Columbus many times.

I've been to Akron.

I've been to.

That may be it, actually.

I've driven through it on the way to Pittsburgh.

Have you been to the natty?

I've never been to the natty.

I've never been to the Vland.

The Natty, they put chili on spaghetti.

That's right.

That's the natty five-way chili.

Oh, that's not.

Spaghetti, chili, and three other things.

What are the other things?

I don't know.

Spaghetti on chilies.

It's chili on spaghetti.

That sounds kind of good.

I can see that.

Yeah, I could probably see it as well.

Wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

What are we talking about, Craig?

We're putting drivers across America to sleep with you.

Yeah, while you're driving, yeah.

Here's the solution, dude.

Podcasts.

Listen to podcasts.

You can't, if you're driving late at night through Ohio,

staying awake for that is

not a reasonable thing to ask of your wife.

In fact,

it's a terrible thing to inflict upon her.

If you are driving, it is your responsibility to be awake and alert and no one else's.

It is a sacred responsibility and one that this court is offended that you would try to foist off upon your narcoleptic wife.

So pick some interesting podcasts, drink some coffee, and maybe plan your travel better.

I like to listen to, I like to alternate on road trips between our friend Tom Sharpling's show, The Best Show, which I like because it's lively and long.

I just listened to that on a road trip on Sunday, and it made my day.

Yeah, it really makes the hours fly by.

And then I listened to maximumfun.org's own Stop Podcasting Yourself,

which is gentle and hilarious.

Yes, indeed.

So I find it very comforting.

That's Dave and Graham of Vancouver

British Columbia.

Talking to all kinds of Canadians.

I'd say that if people want to

give that show a try, why not download the John Hodgman guest episode?

You know, one thing that's great about that show, I think about my time visiting them a lot.

I had a really wonderful time hanging out with them.

They're so funny.

They're really, really funny.

And Dave and his little family are so sweet.

Except for Dave being such a cranky grumpus.

Well, go ahead.

Somehow, my my wife started following Dave's wife's Instagram feed that largely features photos of their adorable

dog grandpa and child.

Yeah, the child's gorgeous too.

And my wife is now a huge fan of a baby on Instagram.

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of their baby too.

Hey, I'm a fan of Dave's Aunt Sheila.

Yeah.

Like, and my wife keeps saying, Can we plan a trip out to, do you have any reason to go to Vancouver?

Yeah.

I'm like, no, I don't have any, I don't have any plans to go there for any reason.

Maybe we could come up with something.

Go visit them later.

Like, you just want to go see that.

You just want to go see that baby.

You want to make a pilgrimage to an Instagram baby?

Yeah.

I want to.

Yeah.

I follow Abby on Instagram.

Let's hit Springsteen and then go and then go see the Shemkas.

Yeah.

Perfect.

Okay, here's something from Al.

This case has me versus my wife and the world.

I'm just going to, this is something,

a new technique I have, Jesse, called pre-judging.

Uh-huh.

It's the use of pre-justice, I think.

I haven't decided what I'm going to call it yet.

Well, you have to submerge yourself in that green gel that you're inside of a playman.

That's right.

And then you get visions of justice.

That's right.

I get some out of a machine, this avocado pit rolls down a chute with the name of the winner on it.

Right.

And I'm going to go with my wife and the world on this one.

I think they win.

I don't know what this is about at all.

Let's see if I'm wrong.

This is a classic nerds and their schemes.

I believe that cheerleading is not a sport and neither is baseball.

Cheerleading is art and baseball is a game.

What?

My wife thinks I'm just being an a-hole and that I'm not qualified to make this judgment because I've never participated in organized sport.

Oh, there's a shocker.

Here's my logic.

Cheerleading, dance, gymnastics, BMX stunts are art forms because the participants perform a routine and are judged on the quality and accuracy of their performance.

Now, number one, that does not apply to dance, but unless you're in some kind of weird dancing contest.

Yeah, there are a lot of dancing contests.

Well, certainly to save the community center.

Well, it's been a fixture of the neighborhood for so many years.

I know, but those developers want to tear it down to build condos

for yuppies like Michael J.

Fox.

It's called expanding the tech space.

Just say, football, basketball, hockey, racing, these are definitely sport.

Players are put in direct physical confrontation with each other.

There are clear contests of strength, conditioning, and teamwork.

Not racing.

Baseball is not a game.

I think you mean sport, though.

Yeah.

Baseball is not a sport since it is not a direct physical contest.

Players take turns trying to perform a particular skill.

Well, that's just not the case.

Sorry, that was me editorializing.

Oh, sorry, right.

I want my wife to accept that baseball is not a sport, but a game, and that does not diminish it in any way.

It's just the most appropriate label.

Well, number one, in addition to having never participated in an organized sport, you've never watched a baseball game which is completely built around direct physical confrontations.

Not people hitting each other, but it's not coach pitch softball

that six-year-olds play.

You are pitting your skill against a thing that is coming at you.

And that thing that is coming at you is coming at you from a member of the opposing team who is using his physical prowess, his or her physical prowess,

to defeat you.

Right.

And often you are engaged in a foot race or you're being tagged by a glove that is

touching is what you need.

A baseballer is chasing you and trying to touch you.

Usually people who say this, it's about one team,

it's about how only one team can act on the ball at any given time.

It's like soccer is a sport because anybody can kick it.

Wait a minute, you've heard this before?

I've heard this before, yeah.

People have all kinds of cockamists.

See, because what I was going to say is, even though this guy's

assessment of baseball is utterly faulty, and even I, a non-sportsman, knows this.

But

I reject the whole premise because the definition of game versus sports is

so pointless and pedantic as to be ephemeral and meaningless.

Who cares?

No.

Not me.

Nope.

Cheerleading is not a sport.

At least it's not a sport on the sidelines of a football game, but I think it's probably

a sport when a cheerleading competition.

Sure.

All right.

I'll go along with that.

Yeah.

I think on the sidelines of a football game, it's an art that's demonstrated to

have these goals,

you know, to entertainment and excitement and all these things.

And in a competition, it's a sport.

It's a physical contest.

Yeah.

Ah, it's crazy.

Al.

Yeah.

You know what?

I've never thought it would come to this.

On the Judge John Hodgman podcast,

I'm sentencing Al.

Take up a sport, specifically baseball.

Learn what you're talking about.

Yeah.

If not baseball,

slow-pitched softball.

Defunct hockey.

Wow.

Either I'm playing for the Hartford Whalers.

Or

the Quebec Nordiques.

You know what I think he should take up?

Old-timey baseball.

Have you ever seen people play old-timey baseball?

You mean

where they wear their leather, I mean their woolen robes or whatever?

Yeah, they wear like uh they wear like these kind of like some of them have no glove and some of them have these kind of like finger gloves like a

you know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no,

no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcast.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news, we still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else, too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Taxi cab driver would wear.

Yeah.

And they say Leggett and Striker to the line.

No, they don't.

Yes, they do.

Cooperstown style.

Cooperstown style.

It's amazing and hilarious.

These people travel from minor league ballpark to Civil War reenactors.

Are you talking about baseball LARPers?

These are baseball Civil War reenactors.

I like it.

Yeah.

I would go.

That's the Nerd Jock Convergence.

It's a powerful Nerdjock convergence.

I will not say where I have seen it, but it was at a convention of the Society for American Baseball Research.

Speaking of Nerdjock convergences.

Whoever gets me Springsteen tickets in Vancouver may also invite me to that thing.

Okay, we actually have a number of things about vaping and motorcycles, which was the subject of a recent case called Enmoto Parentis.

Yeah.

By the way, vaping is not a sport.

Here's something from Rob S.

Advanced rider training, meaning several days with an experienced instructor talking to you via radio as you negotiate traffic, should be considered mandatory for any rider, especially a teenaged one.

Right.

So this is in response to the recent episode where a

16-year-old wanted to convince his mom to sell the car that they had bought for him, which was a Kia Soul.

Because he wanted to convince his mom to save some money.

Save some money by selling the car

so that he could get a motorcycle and also buy him a vape pin.

And we ruled decidedly no on both counts.

That guy was so sweet.

I want to make it clear how much I support this young man and his dreams.

Oh, yeah, look.

I don't think he should pursue these dreams, these particular ones.

But

I think I thought he was a really lovely guy.

The issue that bothered this court so much was that he was asking his mom to subsidize the goofball dream of, and potentially very very dangerous dream of

getting a super fast motorcycle and then looking like a dumb-dumb vaping on it.

Yeah.

That's something that you have to pay for yourself.

Maybe with your life.

He also wanted to get the vape pen of motorcycles.

That's right, exactly.

Okay, nobody should get a true sports bike as their first bike.

They require a lot of experience to ride.

I think that makes a lot of sense.

And protective gear is a must.

He says, if my child managed to buy a motorcycle, I'd probably post facto help him pay for enough gear to keep him alive, and I'd do everything I could to make sure he wore all of it every single time he took out the bike.

Now, that said, no amount of gear will keep you alive in some motorcycle accidents, but it's certainly better than not wearing it.

Is he gonna get him a suit of armor, like a medieval suit of armor?

I would like to, but

you have to insulate it.

What you do is you fill it with that pink spray foam.

So

you get in the suit of armor, and you put that expanding insulation foam in there,

and it fills up.

You use a putty knife to cut off the excess, and you put him down on that sport bike and let let him go.

Gung gung.

Kawasaki ninja time.

Okay, here's an offer from Chris C.

As a young man, I had a cool dad who got me a motorcycle at eight.

I had an insane dad.

I had my motorcycle license at 15 and my first street bike at 15.

Please feel free to put Duncan in touch with me.

I'd be happy to give him some advice.

Also, he should know that Mr.

Alton Brown once broke his arm while riding one of the safest motorcycles wearing maximum safety gear.

Yeah.

Yeah, lots of people die on motorcycles all the time, time, way more than in cars.

Or just break their arms.

It's a dangerous thing to do that you must engage with very responsibly if you're going to do it.

Here's something from David in case you need some reasons not to vape besides it being literally the least cool thing that anyone has ever done.

He writes, vape pens are known to explode.

That actually would make it cooler.

People are getting really bad burns and losing their vision and so forth from exploding vape pens.

Often the culprit is using an improper USB charger.

It's the lithium-ion batteries that explode.

Recently, a kid at the mall was demoing one and got really hurt.

Lawsuits all around.

Yeah, well, the way around that is

you get one of those steam-powered vape pens from the Renaissance fair.

Yeah.

And then you ride around on your motorcycle wearing medieval armor.

That's what you do.

Here's one final thought from Alex.

I wanted to drop you a short note because the subject of this episode was so close to my own experience.

I went to college in 19 across the country.

I'd always wanted a motorcycle, and my folks told me the exact same thing as Duncan's mom.

They wouldn't allow it as long as they were paying my bills.

They refused to let me buy it with my own money.

I lied to them and bought one anyway.

A few weeks after I graduated from college, my dad died suddenly of a stroke.

A little while after the funeral, I sat talking with my mom and brother.

The tragedy had one silver lining as it brought us much closer than we'd been before.

I told my mom that I wanted to tell her something, that I'd owned a motorcycle for several years.

My older brother also had a bike that he had kept secret, and he confessed right after I did.

We all shared a laugh at how this was so meaningless to us all now that we had harshly discovered the things that really mattered, like being loving and honest with each other.

I hope Duncan and his mom won't ever have to go through what we did, but I would wager that he's going to buy a bike when he gets to college too and hide it from his folks.

What a touching story.

I'm very sorry to hear of your dad passing away.

I think you may be.

Look, I wasn't there when you were laughing it up with your mom at the funeral, having revealed that you had been telling her lies for many years.

About your personal safety.

About your personal safety.

I'm not sure I completely understand how your father passing away unexpectedly and tragically from a stroke reminded you that the important things in life

were to ride a motorcycle.

Yeah.

I mean, unless the story ended with you guys burying your motorcycles because you realized how short life is and you want to live to enjoy it.

But look, it's not for me to judge.

Oh, yes, it is.

It's exactly what it is for me to do.

But

because I appreciate the honesty and sincerity of your letter and recognize the tragedy of you losing your father, I hope your family is doing okay, and I appreciate your sharing that memory with us.

Another thrilling Judge John Hodgman podcast comes to its conclusion, Judge Hodgman.

Hamill toast.

Still thinking about it.

Yeah, we should talk to our friends at Breville and see what they can do.

Oh, man.

If they made a toaster that toasted the Hamilton logo into a toast,

I'm just telling you guys, that's how you toast money.

What if they made a ham-for-ham

toaster oven that could make Hamilton toast, but you could also cook a ham in?

You're talking about a ham-for-ham toaster oven.

Yeah.

That you can make Hamilton toast, but also make a ham-for-ham and cheese

croque monsieur.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it just, in general, it goes hard as a so-and-so.

That's right.

Non-stop.

Yeah.

I think that's a great idea.

Let's talk to them.

Okay.

Because we don't know what they will do.

We know that they won't sponsor our show,

but we don't know yet what they will do.

We'll just keep at it, Breville.

We're just going to keep giving you opportunities to support our show and toast your own money.

Our show produced by Julia Smith and Jennifer Marmer this week.

You can find us on Reddit at maximumfund.reddit.com.

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