Grand Theft Risotto

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Grand Theft Risoto.

Mike brings the case against his mom, Mary Beth.

He says Mary Beth knowingly took her daughter-in-law's recipes for a family cookbook and passed them off as her own.

Mary Beth says that the attribution was implied and there was no wrongdoing.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents the obscure cultural reference.

You can still live with grace and wisdom, thanks partly to the many people who write about how to do it, and perhaps talk over much about riboflavin and economy, and partly to your own innate sense of what you must do with the resources you have to keep the wolf from snuffing too hungrily through the keyhole.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that when cooking, he never uses recipes, preferring to rely instead on his innate sense of recipe?

I do.

I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

Mike, Emily, Mary Beth, you may be seated.

For an immediate summary judgment in either Mike's or Mary Beth's favor,

can any of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Now, Mike and Emily, you're kind of on the same side, or Emily, you're standing by as a neutral expert witness to this case.

Really, it's Mike taking his mother to court.

Is that correct?

Correct.

All right.

So, Mary Beth, hello.

Hello.

How are you?

Good.

Good.

My name is Judge John Hodgman, and you're on a podcast.

Did your son even tell you what's going on?

Yes, he did.

All right, good.

I don't like it when moms take their sons to court.

It's rather unseemly, if you ask me.

But since you're here against your will, you can either guess the piece of culture that I was quoting as I entered the room,

or you can make your son guess first and hope to glean some information from his, I am sure, to be wrong guess.

And if you guess correctly the origin of the cultural reference, that means God or whatever favors you in this case, and you get automatic divine

justice and the win.

Well, I'll pass it on to him.

All right.

Mike, it goes to you.

Does God or whatever favor you or the mother who raised you and fed you as a child?

What is your guess?

It would seem he does not favor me.

I have to say, what do you mean he?

What do you mean he?

He, she, or whatever would not favor me.

Right, but you have to make a guess.

All right, Mike, would you like to hear the reference again?

Yes, please.

No.

What is your guess?

God, I don't know.

It's hard to guess when you know that you're going to guess wrong.

Suddenly you can't think of anything.

It is.

Did you want to guess The Art of Eating by MFK Fisher?

I was just about to say The Art of Eating by Mr.

Fisher.

Okay.

Now, Mary Beth, it's time for you to guess.

Okay, my guess is going to be James Beard.

That's a very interesting guest.

And Mike's, yours was particularly interesting.

But all guesses are wrong.

I feel a little bit bad, Mary Beth, because

you didn't catch on to what I was doing, which was giving you a big hint.

Oh, I'm usually pretty good at that.

The author of that is, in fact,

MFK Fisher, who is not a Mr., but a Ms., or was.

She was Ms.

Now is was.

But it was not from The Art of Eating.

It was from How to Cook a Wolf, a different book by her, about a subject that we very rarely hear about in food writing terms, which is how to keep your family from starving by

making what little food you have

after the war last longer.

It's not something that we read about a lot anymore.

Now it's more like, how much food can you throw away?

I read

a lot about food.

I used to write about food and online alcohol for Men's Journal magazine.

That's how I met Alton Brown, one of my very favorite food personalities who's been a guest on this program a couple of times.

But MFK Fisher, for me, was the person who really made me understand why food was worth writing about.

And she wrote during the middle of the last century, an incredible prose stylist.

And I would, I, when I took a semester abroad in London during college during a drink abroad program that I designed myself

and was sleeping on the floor of my friend's dormitory at University College of London.

I was of age, children, by the way.

I was legal age for drinking in England at least.

And then I would bathe in the dormitories,

bathing.

Like they didn't have showers very much over there at that time.

So they just had rooms with a single bathtub in it.

And I would lie in that bathtub and I would read this big giant omnibus edition of MFK Fisher.

And it was one of my fondest memories.

Well, I was not going to say this, but there's one time when I woke up and I, for reasons that I still don't know, had vomit in my hair and I had to wash it out.

And

MFK Fisher was the soothing balm

that filled my soul's hunger at a a time when I could not feed myself for fear of vomiting again.

So that's what I that's what I is my that's my takeaway from her and I highly, highly recommend her works.

We have

on this food and recipe related podcast

a new expert witness, though, another food writer, one who

is not dead,

but who yet lives.

And we've been trying to get him on the podcast for a long time and And we're going to bring him on now so he can just get on with the expert witnessing.

And his name is Kenji Lopez-Alt.

He is the Managing Culinary Director of Sirius Eats.

And he's also the author of The Food Lab, which is a book, The Food Lab, Better Home Cooking Through Science, which Mary Beth just won a James Beard Award.

Is that not correct, Kenji?

That's correct.

Congratulations to you and welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Did you recognize my MFK Fisher quote?

You know, I was too busy making sure that my oven wasn't buzzing and my fan wasn't going off and all those things you have to do for radio that I actually didn't even hear your quote when you said it.

Oh.

Not to worry.

I'll repeat the quote for you.

Beans, beans, the wonderful fruit.

The more you eat.

Got it, yes.

MFK Fisher, right?

Absolutely, yeah.

Now, you are an expert in food science.

Sure, we could say that.

Is that not so?

Yeah, you know, I'm an expert in writing about food science.

Right.

And so, what does that, how does that manifest itself then?

Well, you know, my job is basically to take complicated scientific ideas and explain them in ways that your average home cook can understand and to explain how understanding these concepts can make you a better cook.

Now, this dispute is around recipes.

Specifically, Mike accuses Mary Beth of stealing Mike's wife's Emily's recipes for a family cookbook.

And one of the things I like about the work that you're doing and

people who are interested in food science like you is taking this long,

you know, cooking is science, but it is a science that has long existed exclusively in the realm of

essentially folklore, which is what family recipes are.

You know, trial and error honed over time, passed down generation by generation, but never tested rigorously for its scientific properties, right?

And you're taking

cooking, which has long been sort of

an arts and crafts of the home, and examining it from a scientific point of view.

Is that about right?

Yeah, that's pretty fair.

Good.

I like to be fair.

I'm a justice, after all.

So, Mike,

your mom is a thief.

Talk to me about what a terrible person she is.

So,

my mom, you know, I think to start with both me and my mother, and I get it from her, have a very competitive nature.

And as far as that relates to this cookbook, this cookbook was created.

It has a little blurb at the beginning about how all these recipes have history.

And, you know, like some of our families should be able to look at these recipes and dredge up memories and things in times when we've had them.

And there's a lot of these recipes in there, like that my aunt and other people submitted that do just that.

So when I received it.

It is true that food has a real quality of dredging up memories.

I think that's what Proust wrote about, right?

Ugh, these Madelines making me think about my child and dredging up those memories again.

So he said it in French and wrote it down, also.

Well, but let's go, let's back up a little bit and just get to the crime you're accusing her of.

I don't care about your competitive nature.

Okay.

But I know what a family cookbook.

Well, maybe some people don't know what a family cookbook is.

A family cookbook is what, Mary Beth?

It is a compilation of recipes that the family has made over the years, repeatedly made over the years, and brought to family functions and holidays.

And

you Xerox it up for each other?

She made a little spiral-bound book for anyone that wanted one.

She, she, who's she, who's she?

I'm sorry.

My sister, Lynn.

Oh, okay.

You don't want to name check Lynn, huh?

You don't want to give anyone credit for anything, do you, Mary Beth?

No, I try not to.

Excellent.

So, Mike, you claim that Mary Beth took recipes from your wife, Emily,

who is currently suffering in silent shame and mortification.

Exactly.

So I got a copy of this book and started leafing through it.

And as I came across like the first recipe, I recognized that, you know, leafing through it going, how am I going to nail mom this time?

That's probably something.

Exactly.

So the first recipe I came across was like, well, this seems a lot like that one that Emily made.

And then I just didn't really think anything of it.

I kept going.

And as I flipped through these pages, by the time I was done, I realized I think it was about four out of the five recipes that my mom submitted she had wholesale got for my wife and had never once made herself.

She never even married Beth.

Is that true?

True with explanation.

True with explanation usually means not really.

No.

Can I explain?

You may.

I'll allow.

Thank you.

Yes, they were ones I had

tasted that she had made and I loved.

So when my sister did a revised edition of the cookbook and asked if there were any ones we wanted to add, I sent them to her,

not giving any thought, just like the first edition, of submitting them.

So it wasn't to credit.

And let's get specific here.

You sent in some evidence, right, Mike?

And these are pages

from the cookbook.

Correct.

The Brogan Family Cookbook.

There, I name-checked you.

Okay.

Now you'll be found.

Some old, excuse me, some new, some old.

And here's a little, oh, here's a photo on the front from left to right.

Lynn, your sister,

Larry, Kathy, Kathy, some other people.

Then there's Kevin, Tommy, and then there's you, Mary Beth.

The cute one on the end.

You're very adorable.

Thank you.

How old were you in that photo?

14.

Probably about five.

Yeah.

Mike, I know you're very competitive, but let your mom

let your mom assess her own age.

She remembers being there.

14.

I can look at that and know that she wasn't 14 in that photo.

Anyone who wants to see what a dumb-dumb Mike is, go to our website where you can see this.

14.

Man, you're going to get arrested if you're not careful.

I just thought old photos like added 10 years.

And where does the Brogan family make its home?

What part of the world?

We're all kind of about in the suburbs of Detroit.

There's Alan Park.

There's Riverview.

Okay.

Michigan.

Yes.

Michigan around Detroit.

Some new, some old.

First edition, November 2000, revised edition, December 2012.

I presume, Mary Beth, that is this revised edition to which you

added these recipes?

Yes.

All right.

So, Mike,

oh, here we go.

There's some pictures of your home, some specific addresses.

This will be fun for the listeners.

They'll love to come and pay homage to you.

Give me one of these recipes.

I'm looking at page seven.

Is it the recipe for deviled eggs?

One of them is for farm stay and salsa.

Right.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, no, no.

This is perfect because you can really this is where you can really tell

like it really stands out let me walk listeners through this the first recipe

the first recipe is for deviled eggs

which is hard and the and the recipe goes make deviled eggs basically

the second recipe has two ingredients one of which is Lipton's onion soup mix and the other which is

one container regular or light sour cream And guess what that's called?

Lipton brand onion soup dip.

I don't think that that's Emily's own recipe.

And then

we get to farm stand salsa.

One of these things is not like the other.

Because now we got two avocados, cherry tomatoes, three ears of corn, cut off the cob, uncooked, green onions, red onion diced, lemon lime, sea salt.

Holy moly, this is a beautiful, fresh salsa that does not involve onion soup in any way.

Emily, do I guess right that this is your recipe?

It is.

I don't know if I'd call it a recipe, but it is something that I made and brought to some event.

It sounds delicious.

Did you name it Farmstand Salsa?

You know, I don't know.

I don't think would I have named it?

I don't recall.

Well,

how did they get the name Farmstand Salsa?

Because I think that's a pretty good name for a salsa.

It is a pretty good name.

Do you think that did you name it when you sent it, or do you think I named it?

Mary Beth?

No, I did not name it.

Emily, if this is your recipe and you did not name it, and Mary Beth did not name it, who could have named it?

Well, again, it wasn't to credit or discredit.

Maybe Emily got it from somewhere and then she liked it.

And then

you're saying your daughter-in-law is a, it takes a thief to know a thief, and your daughter-in-law is herself a thief.

Well, she's picking up on my traits, yes.

Is this your recipe, Emily, or not?

Yes, and uh, and I must have named it farm stand salsa at some point because I have it on a card.

It's one of the things that over time she'll say, oh, what's in that?

That was great.

I'm going to bring that to a party.

Or, you know, we prepared big amounts of it for summer backyard get-togethers, that kind of stuff.

It's,

I had to have named it at some point along the way.

I think you better stick with that story.

Okay.

Kenji.

Yes.

Here's a question for you.

Okay.

What do you think?

Are recipes intellectual property?

Well, I mean, I can tell you what I think.

I can also tell you what the government thinks.

I'll allow both opinions if they're different.

Well, so my question would be, in the context of this particular recipe book, there are clearly recipes that violate, you know, at least government intellectual property laws, like

famous Lipton onion soup dip.

That's not Mary Beth's recipe.

That's nobody's recipe, but the Lipton Company's recipe.

And so she does seem to be taking liberties anyway,

which to me means that it can be assumed that none of the recipes in this book are truly sort of developed from whole cloth original.

And what does that really mean in a recipe anyway?

I mean, are any recipes developed from whole cloth original?

I would say no.

Even recipes that are newly developed, like the type of recipes that I work on,

they're still based on existing techniques.

Maybe we're modifying the techniques a little bit.

What I can tell you is that if I publish a recipe in a book,

The only claim that someone can make if I, you know, that I stole it from them is if I'm using the exact same language, is if the ingredients list is identical and the wording in the language is identical.

You know, a recipe on its own, just the concept of combining ingredients and cooking them in a certain way, is not something that you can copyright.

The language which you use to express those ideas, that is something that you can copyright.

If I took this farm stand salsa recipe

and I cut and pasted it into my own cookbook,

that would be obviously a violation of copyright.

But if you rewrote it in your own words, like if I said it wouldn't, this is off the hook five or six times.

Like I'm taking this to Flavor Town.

These are, kenji i don't know if you listened to the show but these are judge sean hodgman's famous catchphrases yeah

we're going downtown to flavor town yeah downtown to flavor town which is a smaller town located in a in one district of a larger town it's technically a township yeah but we call it flavor town right

my my question would actually be where did that recipe for farm stand salsa come from in the first place well that's the thing recipes you know are traditionally either adapted from cookbooks or passed down from the mother or father to son or daughter.

They are passed on and improved upon and changed over time.

They are folkloric in that way.

Very rarely does a woman in Michigan wake up in the middle of the night and see glowing in front of her two avocados halved scooped out into chunks, one container of cherry tomatoes halved, three ears of corn cut off cob uncooked, lime, lime, lemon, sea salt, etc.

Emily, did you make this up out of your mind or did you adapt it from some other place?

It didn't appear that way to me in the middle of the night in Michigan.

No, I think actually this is a spin-off of something that I ate at another party.

So other friends of ours that I used to work with,

I think it had black beans in it.

There might have been...

Some variation, but it's probably pretty similar to

something that I had eaten already.

To me, the great innovation is that you or someone called it farm stand salsa.

I think that's the only cool thing.

Now, here we go.

It's not the only cool thing.

It sounds like a delicious salad or a salsa or whatever it is.

But

the true unique intellectual property is this pretty cool name that you gave it.

Not your desire to use avocados in a thing.

Right.

Let's move on here to this next page.

Baked blueberry pecan French toast.

Now, whose recipe is this, Mike?

This is without a doubt my wife's recipe.

All right.

Now, Kenji, we're getting into a different territory here because

when you are making a salsa, which is basically just a lot of junk that's rotting in your fridge, cut up and put into a bowl, you can really improvise.

And really, a recipe is not necessarily required, much like any salad or sandwich.

You just kind of go with what you got.

Right.

Baking,

if you is a science, far more so than making a salad, wouldn't you say?

I would say so.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, you do tend to measure more precisely when you're baking.

Because if you put in, if you, if you just freehand the baking powder,

it's going to affect the outcome.

Yes, that is true.

Definitely true.

Yeah.

Can I add a quick piece of evidence to

the file here?

I'd be glad if you would.

I'm sitting at my computer and I just did a quick Google search for baked blueberry pecan pecan French toast.

Oh my God.

What does it have turned out?

First of all, there are over 600,000 results.

But the very first one from Epicurus is this exact recipe.

Emily.

Takes a thief to know a thief.

Oh, wow.

Law and order sound times 100.

Yep.

And I made it for Mother's Day brunch and then repeated to make it because it was a favorite of my mother-in-law and so she stole it from you you stole it from me stole it from epicurious all right now if i could add one thing in emily's defense no thank you anyway

what is in what is all right i i take it back mike what is it So the way the way I watch her cook is that she will definitely start out with a recipe like this from Epicurus.

And the first time she makes it, she tends to follow, you know, what's here.

And she doesn't always write down the changes that she makes.

But after having done this like four or five times, it's not going to be a dramatically different product when it's done, but she's definitely started to like incorporate her own substitutions and her own just additives so that it's not quite the same.

Be specific, Mike.

What does she change?

Well, I would say there's

less salt.

Does she not grate the nutmeg?

Just throw a whole nutmeg in?

Different fruits and the blueberries and the apples.

Or,

um,

I mean, I'm not, I'm not the one who watched her like really make the recipe.

I'm just, I guess this is her process for most things.

Is you know, when she looks up something to start, she usually tries to follow it pretty closely the first time.

But by the time she's made it five or six times, it's, you know, maybe not drastically so, but it is definitely different than the original recipe off the website.

You heard, expert witness, this recipe reproduced here is directly from the internet.

Well, that would be what she does in practice does not matter to me.

It's what she publishes.

That would be because when my mom asked her for the recipe, this would be the recipe that she forwarded to my mom.

Oh, and the great tradition of older people asking younger people to Google things for them.

But I guarantee, Emily at home has this recipe marked with notes

and her own little changes.

It's a good thing she can't speak for herself.

Well, it also seems to me like right now you're saying that the recipe published in the book is not actually Emily's recipe.

So

then I don't understand

what your problem with including that.

You're saying, first of all, that your mom is stealing recipes from Emily, and now you're saying that this actually isn't her recipe.

You hear that, you guys?

You know what that's the sound of?

That's the sound of our expert witness finding a crux.

Well,

I would agree with you, except that if you go back to the preface of the cookbook, where it says that all of these recipes have like a deeper family history,

and many of them do, like the ones submitted by aunts, like I read these and I can remember my aunt making them.

You know, I remember a Christmas where like lots of these recipes were used, whereas my mom has submitted a recipe she has never made before, has no family history, and she has just taken from Emily to put in this cookbook where it kind of violates that opening

that opening description of what this cookie is supposed to represent.

I'll direct quote: All recipes have a history.

Each one seems to recall some memory of a good meal, a fun time, or a special event.

For example, baking was a favorite pastime growing up in a house full of six kids where food was everything.

And remember that time we opened that packet of Lipton's onion soup and dumped it

into some regular or light sour cream?

It really brings me back.

By the way, Lipton Onion Soup Makes Onion Dip is good.

So I'm not being a snob.

I'm just being silly.

You're saying that reprinting a recipe directly from the internet and putting it in here violates the principle of the preface of the book.

Right.

And even that Lipton recipe that you quoted, like as soon as you said that, I actually have some memories that come with it.

of, you know, of eating that soup or, you know, of it being like a somewhat little mini special occasion where that's come out.

Wait a minute.

So you're saying corporate soup dip means more to you than blueberry pecan

French toast?

As far as like my childhood, and I've never had that like blueberry as part of growing.

Oh, I forgot that everything has to be defined around the significance to your childhood.

Or our family history.

There is no one in my family who's in the history.

There will be order here.

Mike,

this is this inclusion of this recipe.

Could it not be argued that this is Mary an expression of Mary Beth's affection for her daughter-in-law making

a new recipe stolen from the internet, but introduced to your family, and now become a new tradition of your family?

Couldn't that not be an argument?

Yeah, I suppose that's fair.

I just feel like it violates that opening page of saying that this stuff already has a history.

Like, I get your point where maybe

did you write the preface?

No.

What about the note at the bottom of that page, which mentions new

clan members?

Excuse me.

What have I stumbled into?

There's a note at the bottom of page three under the preface that says, since then we have had many new additions to the Brogan clan, so there has been a variety of many new recipes waiting to be shared.

I thought you were talking about a different clan.

Maybe in the 2017 revised edition, you might want to adjust that note on the bottom of page three and just say family.

So your argument, Kenji, is, I'm not sure I...

My argument is that

the original preface, it does say that this is a

family recipe book, and it's all about the recipes we had to bring up.

The note, though, mentions that there's new family members and that these are specific, that the new recipes are specifically new recipes waiting to be shared.

New favorites added to actually Yeah, to build new memories around.

Kenji, you are like the court detective.

And I hope you will always be.

Being a food writer is a little bit like being a detective, isn't it?

A little bit, yeah.

But

I did not like your scoffing laugh.

Do you think I'm wrong or do you think I'm right?

No, it's like being a detective in ways that I can't think of right now.

Well, tracking down the provenance of a recipe requires a little bit of gumshoeing.

It does.

And you do play a little bit of a scientific sleuth in the kitchen.

Right.

Figure out why things work the way they do.

Yeah.

Well, in large part because

most recipes, especially recipes that involve more than just cutting things up and dumping them together, recipes that involve the chemical reaction of cooking,

as I said, were honed through trial and error.

Even the people who invented the recipes probably didn't understand the scientific principles that they were working with and got to something rather mysterious.

Like baking bread is a weird thing that humans made up.

Yeah,

and they've done it so well for so long.

Right.

And

it's almost like since the inventors didn't know the scientific principles, it's an after-the-fact.

It's a,

what you call it there in the CSI?

I don't know what you call it.

No, no, no.

Forensic.

Forensic, right, right, right.

We're looking at existing evidence.

Yeah.

Trying to figure out how that piece of bread got shot to death.

Full of holes.

I think it's really important to look at decay rates in all of these situations.

Oh, sure.

So, Mike,

Kenji just blew a hole through your hole.

It violates the premise of the preface theory.

And analyzing the blood spatter on the wall, you are mortally wounded.

Can I do one rebuttal to that?

Hang on just one second.

Emily, was that you trying to get in there?

Yeah, so I thought maybe to describe it, and maybe this supports what Mike is saying, and maybe it's the same thing that he's saying, but I think this book, more than a cookbook, is like what a photo album is to a family, where it's this collection of, like you said, corporate dips and

other things that people have made that are not original to them, but that's Madam, you do not need to introduce me to

the concept of the self-published

spiral-bound bound family cookbook.

I am an owner,

a proud owner of the self-published spiral bound family cookbook, I believe, from 1989 that was put together by the wives of the 1989 Hartford Whalers.

And it's one of my prized possessions.

I think it involves, I honestly think it involves a recipe, quote unquote, for Franks and Beans, and I love it.

It would fit right in.

Whose side are you on in this one?

Now that you've both been out at his thieves,

you're taking your mother-in-law's side?

Well, I'd kind of like to stay neutral.

That's really, this is between them.

They like to battle.

They like to battle.

They like to battle?

And because I'm an in-law and I'd like to stay on the good side.

Explain to me how they like to battle, Emily.

Well,

I mean, from

placing his mom in the garbage can when she was, I mean,

they have an ongoing Scrabble fight.

If there is an opportunity to compete, to be the first to get something, whether it's

placing his mom in the garbage can?

Yeah, that's the part that I'm asking.

I understand the Scrabble part 100%.

You almost distracted me with the Scrabble thing.

I almost take that bait, but you can't just drop a bomb in a garbage can and just try to move on to Scrabble from there.

What can I explain that?

Please.

Garbage can, mom, go.

Yes.

He was asked me a question, and I gave him an answer.

I don't recall the question.

And I said, okay, that's enough.

Just drop it.

And go, no, no, no.

If you don't, whatever, I'm going to put you in the garbage can.

And I'm like,

no, no, you're not.

He says, yes, I am.

How old was he at this time?

He was in high school.

So you were having a dispute.

And he said, if you don't do X, I'm going to put you in the garbage can.

Correct.

Silence, Mike.

And so he picked me up.

He's, you know, a stocky guy.

So he picked me up and he put me in so that my arms and my legs were like sticking out.

I couldn't get out.

Butt first.

Correct.

Butts first.

Yeah, I'm just describing a thing.

Sorry, you don't like me describing your mom's butt, Mike?

You put her in a garbage can.

No, I'm actually having a lot of fun revisiting this memory.

I know.

It's like you just ate a Madeline

out of the garbage.

And it reminds you of that time you put your mom in a garbage can.

But that is not how it went down.

It seems like it went down somehow.

She

hit a bag of dog poop in my car to get back at me for something else.

And when I got back and I had realized that,

I confronted her on it.

And then she realized that I'm kind of an over-retaliator.

And she realized that she was in trouble.

And I forget what she had said, but I was like, the garbage just happened to be right there.

I was like, listen, I could probably pick you up and put you in that garbage, and you wouldn't be able to get out

until you apologized for putting a bag of dog poop in my car.

So she refused to apologize.

She stood her ground.

So I picked her up and put her in bud first, and she was like a turtle on her back.

And I forget what I asked her to do to get out of it, but

this is intense.

Because

part of me is really enjoying this incredibly weird story

about some

ongoing, increasing prank blood feud between the two of you.

My favorite part was when she just offhandedly mentioned his stockiness as though that was a qualification for putting someone in a garbage can.

I think she meant that he's a strong dude.

Yeah.

She could have said he was a strong dude.

Right.

The conflict has so many layers in there.

Here is my point.

But I just need to say, everybody,

don't assault your mother bodily.

Don't put your mom in the garbage can.

Even if she puts dog poop in your car?

Of course, that is beyond over-retaliation.

Physical assault is not where you want to go with this.

I asked him to clean his car many times and he didn't.

Madam, just because I'm saying you shouldn't be put in a garbage can doesn't mean you have the right to put dog poop in his car.

I am saying that if you put dog poop in his car for whatever reason, a LARF or just a chance to

get back at him for not cleaning his car, the proper response to that, Mike, is increasing level of prank.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

Not shoving people into the garbage.

I thought that was a good prank.

It's not a prank.

You know, it's a fun prank?

Punching someone in the teeth.

Mary Beth, how do you feel about being put in the garbage can?

I wasn't happy.

Did you feel as though you'd been tricked?

Did you realize you were in a garbage can?

Oh, I'm not sure.

I'm trying to get at the prank, essential prankiness of this.

No, I knew where I was, and I couldn't get out.

But when I did,

I came out swinging

in a fun way.

Sure.

I would never hurt Mike.

I have to have a family its own peculiar brand of fun.

But I do need to ask, Mike, are you truly bothered by this misappropriation of your wife's recipes?

Or is this

just the flimsiest of excuses to attempt to figuratively put your mom in a garbage can on my fake justice podcast?

I would be lying if I didn't say it was a pretty close mix of both.

And if I could only add that if the situation were reversed,

she would have no problem doing the same to me.

Emily, do you think that what Mike says is true?

Yes, I do.

I think

had someone else in our family put a recipe of mine in a book, we wouldn't be on this podcast, though.

So that he's just he has he has fun picking on her.

He's just ginned this whole thing up in order order to humiliate her on a podcast.

It's a little exaggerated due to the fact that it is her.

If I could, if I, I don't know if I've already described, like, this has mostly to do with my discovery of how she went about it in the first place, is what led me to actually submit the case.

I think it is more of a very pleasant and entertaining side effect that I get to rub her nose in it.

What would you have me order if I were to find in your favor?

I would like her to have to issue some kind of apology or retraction or some kind of added page to the cookbook to apologize and then give my wife credit

in a future edition.

What about adding head notes to each of the recipes saying exactly what the special moment or celebration they're included for is?

Something that captures the spirit of that preface.

Hold on, Kenji.

This isn't about a family's love.

Yeah, I think it's an inspired idea, Kenji, but it does encourage people to do more writing.

And that's something generally this court frowns upon.

But

what about this?

What if at the beginning of each recipe you put a fond memory of a time you hurt or embarrassed a family member?

That would be wonderful.

Preferably using that recipe, but I guess that would be strictly required.

If she's looking to attach a fond memory to some of those recipes, I think the only fond memory my mom would have of those recipes is of stealing them to include them in the cookbook.

Is that true, Mary Beth?

Is that your fond memory?

No, I love my daughter-in-law.

She's a wonderful cook, and

she cooks quite differently as a lot of people do today from when my mother cooked, which was quite basic.

So the things that Emily makes are a little more involved and they're wonderful.

So when my sister asked me for new recipes, I gave her the ones like these certain four recipes just came off the top of my head as being, these are wonderful, include these.

So I didn't do it to discredit her.

A lot of the recipes are not credited.

We kind of have an understanding, oh, so-and-so makes this.

And that's kind of what spurred the

I don't see any credits.

And I think, though, that

I've heard enough in order to make my decision.

So I'm going to go into my testing kitchen

and whip up a Justice Foam.

But before I do, I just want to read this recipe for chicken salad that is uncredited.

So I will say that it is by me.

It's from the Brogan Family Cookbook.

Two cups cubed chicken, cooked, an important detail.

Two cups celery, one small green pepper, two tablespoons onion, one small jar pimento, ten ounces frozen peas, cooked, one cup Hellman's brand mayonnaise, one small can Chinese noodles.

Mix all ingredients together.

Chill.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom, perhaps to make himself a nice chicken salad.

Here's my question.

Here's my question for Emily and Marybeth.

Have the two of you thought about leaving Mike behind and starting a new family elsewhere?

Yes, it's been considered.

It's been considered.

Why did you decide against it?

Well, I love him.

Yeah.

Emily does too.

And, you know, he's my son.

I tried my best.

I really did.

Mike,

what food

brings the best and deepest family memories for you?

My mom has several recipes, like a potato soup.

She used to make a beef stroganoff.

Several things that do evoke that same kind of historical memory for me, which is why I found it odd that she wouldn't have put those in there instead of stealing recipes from Emily.

You know, and that's what I was going to say in her defense.

Like, she has a few things in her toolbox.

I'm sorry, did I ask you?

I missed the answer to my question there in that little soliloquy.

I was trying to make you human, but I give up.

Many of us have.

You seem like a lovely guy.

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this when we come back in just a second.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

You may be seated.

That chicken salad was delicious.

Good.

How were those noodles in there?

They added a little crunch.

I like the pimento in particular.

Yeah, a whole jar.

The only thing that the whole experience of eating it was haunting because I had no idea who created the recipe.

Kenji.

Yes.

Thank you again so much for being with us.

Before I give you my opinion,

which is, of course, binding by fake internet law,

what's your take?

Should Mary Beth be punished?

My take is: well, I don't think she should be punished for the crime that she is charged with right now.

I think the real crime that she should be punished for, actually, though, is including a recipe where 50% of the ingredients are Cool Whip and Snickers bar in the salads section instead of the desserts section.

But maybe that's a different

I think that's a regionalism.

Which, where was that recipe?

I missed it.

It's right above the chicken salad.

Oh, the apple Snicker salad?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's very misleading because there, oh, there are Snickers.

There's four Snicker bars in there.

Wait, there's apples in there?

Yeah.

I'm out.

When I thought it was just cool whip and Snickers bars, I was on board.

There's a wonderful.

I've been trying to get more vegetables in my diet.

I really think you guys should get this up on as a Kindle single or something soon because this thing is going to fly off the shelves.

Listen to this.

Thank you, Kenji, for bringing my attention to the Apple Snicker salad.

I missed that.

My favorite aspect of Apple Snicker salad, is it the Granny Smith apples, cool whip snicker bars, crushed pineapple, and walnuts that are involved?

No.

Is it the fact that it also encourages you to chill?

No.

My favorite part is, if you have any compliments or problems, call Katie.

The last line of the recipe.

Why?

Because it's credited.

It's credited.

Here's the thing.

There are two crimes here.

One is the crime of theft or plagiarism.

intentional or unintentional, well-intentioned or malintentioned.

There is no question

that when you take a recipe, as with any other piece of writing, and present it without due credit

in a context where it might be reasonably misunderstood to be your original work, that is plagiarism.

And to someone walking through their favorite bookstore and stumbling across this wonderful book,

and opening it and finding this recipe therein, obviously it's not a commercially produced book, But someone finding this at a yard sale or whatever, being sold off with all the rest of your possessions after we all are dead,

would reasonably conclude that this was a recipe from the Brogan family

and not a recipe stolen from Epicurus.

Similarly, if with Farm Stand Salsa,

if indeed Emily did invent that recipe and that name and isn't just a liar who stole it, again,

It would be reasonable to conclude at this yard sale that this was invented by some member of the broken family.

The second crime is, which one?

We don't know.

No one's getting credit, even for the stuff they steal.

Only Katie was brave enough to take responsibility

and willing to offer her help with any problems that might arise with her apple snicker salad.

And there are, I can imagine, many problems might arise from it.

And indeed,

for a family cookbook,

which both in spirit and in letter of the preface is designed to help family members

remember old family recipes and introduce new recipes into an existing and ongoing and growing family tradition, you're leaving out an important part of the exercise, which is helping people remember who made what, whose recipe was what, who was famous for making that Lipton soup onion dip.

And I think, Kenji, you raised a very beautiful point, which is: if it is to collect memories, why not put in the memories?

You have the lovely photos, you hint at the memories,

but crediting these recipes and maybe adding a line or two about what they meant to the family will help make this whole endeavor much more meaningful.

And I don't joke, this will be a service to historians.

Sometime in the future, when we are all dust in the ground and have gone to meet God or whatever, someone will find this thing

and it will, for some reason, be in a locked vault at the bottom of the sea.

And they'll wonder, how did this get here?

But they'll also wonder, who were the Brogans?

What was it like to eat in Michigan?

Where were people stealing recipes from then?

Which is all part of the wonderful detective story that is food history.

And so I therefore

find

in Mike's favor,

Court does not like this, but it is compelled to follow justice.

Mary Beth unknowingly plagiarized both her daughter and Epicurus.

And

she must write a note and organize a revision of the cookbook in which she explains what she did and apologizes, and thereafter

works on her own or with Mike's cooperation, or maybe Emily's help,

poor woman,

to give credit where credit is due for each cookbook and to give a little line of explanation as to why this is a memorable recipe and where it came from.

And for this

pecan blueberry French toast, the line will be, I, Mary Beth, stole this recipe from Emily, who stole it from Epicurus,

but we have made amends by apologizing here and on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

No one would have known without the detective work of Kenji Lopez Alt,

author of The Food Lab,

or words to that effect.

I know you've already given your judgment.

Can I give one more quick piece of

quick, quick little bit of evidence?

I would be very, very glad to.

I would just like to ask Mary Beth.

I just googled the Brogan family, and it turns out they don't exist.

Whether the memory that you're going to write about in that farm stand salsa is maybe about the time that all of you sat down to watch an episode of Food 911, specifically the episode Giddy Up Picnic.

Let me tell gun gun

law and order noise.

Also, the first thing you get when you Google farm stand salsa.

Yeah, Kenji Lopez Alt, I can't tell you how important it has been to have you here and how grateful that you were here.

And maybe you shall be the official court Googler from now on

because I, like any other elderly person, need someone else to do it for me, apparently.

I could have done that.

Emily, how do you answer this new charge?

Oh, Ooh, I don't know, Food 911.

Well, we wish you the best.

Yeah.

Let me tell you something that's not over.

I have not yet pounded the gavel

because thanks to Kenji Lopez-Alt,

this initial

meaningless, harmless violation of reprinting etiquette that was drummed up by Mike in order to hurt his mom,

conscripting my podcast to be part of their ongoing feud,

has,

you know, what you did not count on, which was that the process of discovery would uncover other crimes.

And maybe you should have let this

drop before you even took it up.

You've already learned now that your wife is a thief twice over.

And although you seem very nice, Emily, Kenji Lopez-Alt will forever make me distrust anything that you say.

Guilty as charged.

And second of all, Mike,

it was revealed that you assaulted your mother when you were in high school.

And there has never been justice for that crime.

That's a strong word.

So, no, it's not.

No.

That's pretty much a descriptive word.

Yeah, no, trust me.

She's laughing while it takes place.

Yeah.

I, you know, that's not affirmative consent.

that may that may be fear

or

that may be fear or worry overtaking your better senses but uh yeah you can't pick people up and put them in garbage cans dude i'd say it was likely a sort of inherited madness could be i'm sure everyone had a good time and i did

i did mary beth if you have any ptsd you'd like to discuss later

we can get you to a safe space

thank you but all the same mike

I cannot order anyone to assault you, but I can order you to get in a garbage can.

I'll assist with that.

No, I mean right now.

I can do that.

Get in the garbage can, Mike.

The same garbage can I put her in is still here.

This could not be more perfect.

This is true justice.

This is what making memories is all about.

Pour some guacamole on him and then put that in the book.

Emily.

Emily, are you there?

I want you to describe what Mike is doing.

Oh, man, he is trying to untangle his headphones to go to the garbage can.

Here we go.

Keep going.

I don't know if, because of the stockiness, I don't know if he's going to fit butt first.

I think I mean with strength.

I will fit butt first.

Oh, he's sitting on the garbage.

He didn't even bother to empty it.

He is butt first in the garbage can.

Are his feet off the floor?

They sure are.

And how does that make you feel to see justice served today?

It is a special autumn.

I enjoy it.

It's actually kind of comfy.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules.

That is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the court.

Not you, Mike.

You stay in the garbage.

Emily, how do you feel right now?

You know,

I think it was solved.

I love the idea of adding the memories.

And I think I'm going to take a picture of him in the garbage can right now for the new edition.

And put it in the cookbook.

How do you feel, Mary Beth?

Not the best.

I thought I was going to win.

Well, you know, you didn't not win.

Madam, your son is sitting in a garbage can.

Is that not winning enough for you?

Well, being the one that I raised him, no, it's not.

You guys should expose

to learn to let it go.

I'm trying.

Well, Mike, Emily, Mary, Beth, thank you so much for sharing your unique family with us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you.

I'm losing circulation in my legs.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listen.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

i know where this has ended up but no no you would be wrong we're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing yeah you don't even really know how crypto works The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Kenji Lopez-Ald, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

What a pleasure.

Thanks for having me.

And Kenji's book, The Food Lab, is a book that I own a copy of.

Is that the subtitle?

And I love referring to it and using its recipes and enjoying Kenji's lively writing and his interesting insights.

James Beard Award.

That's not how you sell books, Kenji.

I got a copy of this dang thing.

No, it's it, but it's your writing, and it is delightful.

Yeah.

And

interesting.

And

certainly, I would say, James Beard Award earning

and winning.

Yeah.

So don't I'm congratulating.

Which category did you win in?

General cooking.

That's the big one.

Yeah.

Did you have a good time at the ceremony?

Yeah, I was nervous for the first half of it and then relieved for the second half.

You know what my nickname in the kitchen is?

Nervous and relieved.

Well, I don't know.

What's your general cooking?

General cooking.

How did you know?

Oh, did you Google it?

Too quick.

Thank you so much, Kenji.

You're welcome.

Thanks for having me.

This week's case was named by Jonathan Writer or Reiter.

Thanks to him, if you'd like to name a future Judge John Hodgman case, please do so.

Follow us on Facebook, like Judge John Hodgman, join the Maximum Fun Facebook group, and follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Our producers this week, Jennifer Marmer and Julia Smith, our thanks to them.

Our editor, of course, the great Mark McConville.

Thanks, guys.

We're going to be on tour, Judge Hodgman.

What?

Yeah, we're going to the Pacific Northeast on our first ever tour.

I think you mean the Atlantic Northeast.

Yeah, the Pacific Northeast is that fictional country that doesn't exist.

The Pacific Northeast is part of China.

Yeah, exactly.

Which maybe we'll have some listeners there.

But right now, we are going to be traveling through New England and the mid-Atlantic states, beginning in the great state of Portland, Maine.

Tickets are on pre-sale now.

Go to maximumfun.org for all of the dates, all of the details.

It is going to be a blast.

Dates and deets at maximumfun.org or johnhodgman.com/slash tour.

Yeah, you got it.

That's my new

announcer voice.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Bye-bye.

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