Wrecks Libris

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm your goodtime, wintertime guest bailiff, Monty Belmonte from WRSI 939 the River in Northampton, Massachusetts, in for Jesse Thorne.

This week, Rex Libris, Gina files suit against her husband, Craig.

She insists that Craig mishandles and abuses books.

For instance, a curious incident of dog-earing the pages in the nighttime, using them as a doorstop to create create a room with a view, and to kill mockingbirds.

She claims that Craig should Jane err on the side of caution.

Craig says that insults his pride and she's prejudiced.

He eats, praise, loves books, and will love them forever.

He'll like them for always, and as long as he's living, a bookworm he'll be.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and issues the obscure cultural reference.

I am not sure that I exist, actually.

I am all the writers that I have read, all the people I have met, all the women that I have loved, all the cities I have visited, and all the monsters I have judged.

Fun time, winter time,

guest bailiff/slash punsmith,

literary humorist, Monty Belmonte, will you swear in the litigants?

Gina and Craig, please rise and raise your right hands.

Place it on this six-volume signed first edition of War and Peace.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, Aslan, or whatever?

I do.

I so swear.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his three books, the areas of my expertise, more information than you require, and that is all, buzz marketing, are actually dog ear proof?

Yes.

I guess.

Thank you.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

So first of all, Gina, this is an unprecedented episode of Judge John Hodgman because here we are in the lovely studios of WRSI The River 93.9 FM in Northampton, Massachusetts, with our guest bailiff, Monty Belmonte.

Hello.

Hello, Judge John Hodgman.

But also...

In studio are both the plaintiff and the defendant, Gina and Craig.

This has never happened before.

I have judged people live on stage before,

but not in studio.

And for some weird reason, when you asked them to rise, I motioned to them.

No, don't do that.

Don't actually stand up.

And the reason for that is that we normally would add a sound effect.

And

occasionally...

When people on the podcast are asked to rise and we're talking to them remotely via computers, I hear them actually get up and I'm just like, oh, come on, don't waste our time.

But I don't know why I waved you guys off.

I want you guys to stand up, so please stand.

All right.

Yes.

It's like live holy.

And now, Gina and Craig, you may be seated.

I think you should actually leave the courtroom when it's time to leave the courtroom, too.

This new student.

We'll see.

We'll see when we get it.

We'll see.

You know what?

We're going to win.

We're in completely uncharted territory at this point.

And because this case is so cut and dry, we will probably have to,

you know,

what's it?

Strong gate, stretch it out, stretch it out, pat it out.

We'll probably have to pad it out in a lot of different ways.

So yeah, I might just leave the studio

and go over to

Sylvester's?

Sylvester's for a cup of coffee.

Yeah, more buzz marketing.

Yeah, indeed.

Well, you know what?

I'm a local hero.

You certainly are.

I watch people give you looks when we go in there and get our coffee before when you come to do that.

And as a local hero, what do I do?

I ignore them.

Right.

I do not make eye contact with them.

And if I accidentally do, I blame them.

But it is nice to be back here in my part-time home region of the Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts in the middle of a cold, cold winter.

We're going to talk about that in a moment, but Gina and Craig, welcome to the show for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the person I was quoting as I did not enter the courtroom?

I guess all artifices away.

As I was sitting

here looking at you uncomfortably in person.

I am wearing dark sunglasses

in the antique Chinese court tradition to hide my soul from you guys.

In China, in antiquity,

that's what judges would do.

They would wear tinted glasses.

I didn't even know they had sunglasses back then.

I learned something new every day.

So,

Craig, you have been brought to court by your wife, Gina, so you have the option to guess the person I was quoting or to throw the guess to Gina.

I don't think this is correct, but I was going to guess Harold Bloom and the anxiety of influence.

That is a guess, Gina.

Craig took the guess.

So what are you going to guess?

I don't even have a guess.

You have to guess.

Phil Collins.

All guesses are wrong.

As a caveat, we don't play Phil Collins at 939 the River that much.

There's just a calendar with his face on it from Rhino Records.

Okay.

Nothing against Phil Collins.

Very, very, very defensive.

Maybe early genesis.

So

we should say, look, nothing against Phil Collins fans.

Monty Belmonte

is the morning DJ and I would say chief personality, chief among equals of the many very talented, talented disc jockeys here at WRSI, including Michael Sokol and Joan Holiday and Khaleese Smith Funky Phil Straub, Emily Bork.

Yeah, so many talented folks.

So I don't mean to run them down in any way.

But Monty is concerned that listeners to this podcast might think that somehow this station isn't cool because it's got a Phil Collins calendar on the wall.

And so just to clarify, they do not play Phil Collins very often because that might get in the way of playing Car Wheels in a Gravel Road by Lucinda Williams five times a day.

Right.

We like to fashion ourselves as Sue Sue Studio Cool.

I don't think a day has passed that I have listened to WRSI the River.

Would you like to make a wager?

Where, where I know that you have the logo, the actual data.

It's uncanny to me how often that's a great album.

Deception is reality, but also sometimes wrong.

That is a great album.

Also, taking a little tour of the studio, before I reveal to you what the answer was, I was very excited to see a poster behind Gina and Craig for the Shea Theater,

which is is in Turner's Falls.

Yes.

And you have coming up on March 4th.

Am I reading this correctly?

Friday, March 4th,

Red Barat

is coming to play The Shea.

Playing the Shea Theater.

Little buzz marketing.

I run the board of The Shea.

It's a nonprofit theater owned by the town of Montague.

And we have our grand light up the Shea opening weekend.

And that's what it's starting out with.

Red Barat.

Let me tell you all.

Far from, come from far and near

to go on March 4th, Friday, to see Red Barat play the Shea, because that band is amazing.

Yes.

And Sonny Jane, who is the leader and the lead percussionist, has a much, probably the best mustache to entertainment.

Yours comes close.

Look, I'm no slouch.

But if you guys have seen my mustache, you check out Sonny Jane and Red Barat.

That is going to be a good time, wintertime, fun time.

Yes, it is.

Or early springtime.

Almost.

Summertime and wintertime and other time and this other time.

I love that song.

Where's the ukulele?

I don't have it.

So we're patting this out, you guys.

I don't know how you feel about this.

This is a case about a guy who is willfully damaging.

books from public libraries.

And it seems very hard for me that he can mount a defense of that that will be justifiable to this court.

But first of all, let me explain to you that all guesses are wrong.

The person I was quoting was the author, Jorge Luis Borges, one of my very favorite authors, author of many short stories, I think, that have library in the title, certainly the library Babel.

who was himself a librarian until he fell out of favor with Juan Perron and his wife, Evita Perron,

because he refused to support their regime and was fired from his job as a librarian.

I think it was the Miguel Canet Library.

I might have that wrong.

And instead made the Argentine National Poultry Inspector.

And which was not a great idea because I think he was probably almost blind even by then.

A lot of people died from salmonella in Argentina in 1946.

You can lay it all

at the feet of the master

Jorge Luis Borges.

You said lay it and poultry.

I know that you don't like puns, but you inadvertently created one.

Nope, I don't think so.

Okay.

Wordplay at best.

Then after

Perrone,

both Perrones, were overthrown

in a game of thrones.

That's terrible.

I hate myself.

Then Borges was made the director of the National Library of Argentina, where he was now a completely blind librarian,

one of the greatest writers and bibliophiles of all time.

And I wonder how he would think about Craig dog-earing the books from his library.

He's dead now, so you don't need to worry about him, but you do need to worry about me.

I can see you, unlike Borges.

I am alive and I can see you and I can judge you.

Now, I've pretty well brought the case against Craig.

Gina,

you want to add anything anything to your complaint?

I felt that you might feel that way, not to presume, but

it pains me.

You presume, of course, you make a prez out of you and me.

It pains me to see him.

Happy now, Maja.

It pains me to see him do this because not only does he do this, he will do it

to a high degree, not just the tiny corner of the page, but as far as I would say a quarter of the page, dog-eared, running into the text

with library books.

And I feel that's an important distinction between dog-earing library books and dog-earing books from your own personal collection.

Oh, the humanities.

Oh, the humanities.

And it hurts me to see him do this and pass on this behavior to

minors.

Specifically.

Our son.

Your son.

Who is eight.

Who is not here?

He's not here, no.

We're going to get to why you're here in a minute.

Okay.

But how often, Craig, do you dog ear library books in this way?

Well, I say it's when I have a library book and I need to mark the page.

Whoa.

No apology there.

When?

This is a simple if-then.

If I go to the library book, then some book's going to get dog-eared.

When you're just browsing through the books at the library to dog ear them out of habit?

No, I mean, if I like to save my page, I mean, I usually check those out.

All right, let's talk about this now.

You guys are

not from the Pioneer Valley.

No.

You are?

Where are you from?

Guilford, Connecticut.

Guilford, Connecticut.

What brings you to the region today such that we could be in studio together?

My parents took my children away on vacation, and we thought we would take a mini break ourselves over the school vacation week, so we went to the Berkshires.

Oh, very nice.

What'd you do?

We just hung out.

We went out to dinner and had dinner out.

We like to plug local businesses.

Do you want to say where you had dinner?

The prairie, really?

Yeah.

The prairie whale in Great Barrington?

I don't know that one.

Do they serve prairie whale there?

They do.

Prairie whale sounds like

it sounds like a Rocky Mountain oyster.

It sounds like a euphemism.

A prairie whale is a pig.

Is it?

There you go.

Is that so?

Oh, and I did have a pork dish, so yes.

Well done.

Is that true, Craig?

Yeah, according to their website, that's 19th century slang for a pig.

Oh, boy.

Did you fold over that website after you finished reading it?

No, I tried, but

it didn't work.

Were you at the public library, and when you finished reading that website, did you take a key out of the keyboard?

You're here in the lovely

western part of my home Commonwealth.

Our former home commonwealth as well.

Oh, are you Massachusettsians?

We were for 12 years.

Our children are born Bostonians.

I see.

We're not from there, but we lived there for 12 years, yes.

Where are you from originally?

I'm from Long Island, and he's from Hartford.

Okay.

Oh, nice.

Were you a Whalers fan?

Uh-oh.

He's taking

Hartford Whaler socks.

Oh, Hartford Whalers socks.

He's trying to curry favor.

Do you have Lennox Prairie Whaler sock?

I like it.

Hartford Whalers socks.

Very good.

You know, favor, curried.

You win.

Goodbye.

Told you to be short.

And so what do you do down there in Guilford, Connecticut?

I'm a freelance writer.

Mm-hmm.

And Craig?

I'm a physician.

You're a physician?

All right.

And what library do you frequent in Guilford, Craig?

The Guilford Free Library and

the library at Yale, too, though I don't routinely check out books from there.

You mean Sterling Memorial Library?

Sterling Memorial Library and the Medical Library as well.

I see.

I've never been to the medical library, but Sterling Memorial Library is one of my most favorite places on earth.

How often do you go to the library?

We go to the library weekly, typically.

More to get books for our kids.

The younger one is five, so we go through a lot of picture books.

For the older one, it's books for him to read and usually for me to read with him as well.

Okay.

And so that would be going to the Guilford Free Library.

That's your average everyday lending library.

Yes.

Okay.

And so when you go,

if you go once a week, would you say you dog ear a page in a book every visit?

No, I mean.

Regina is nodding.

Is she

a line otter?

A line otter is another rare species from Western Mountains.

What's a line otter?

It's like an otter that they go in these lines throughout the Mountain River.

Connecticut River.

Damn you, Monty Belmonte.

Even your name is wordplay.

True.

Go on, Craig.

Oh, so answer the accusation, please.

So typically, picture books do not get doggeared.

If I am reading a paper book,

I will doggeare to mark my page.

Well, name a book that you took out of the library.

To read.

Recently, for example, I just read My Side of the Mountain with my older son.

Okay.

Did you dog ear that one up?

Yes.

Okay.

And

so.

Do you doggear at home when you're working through the book, or do you just go into the library and take volumes off the shelf and just say, this one looks like it needs a little pinching up?

Just in the home.

Just in the home.

The privacy of my own home when people aren't watching.

Why are you doing this to books that do not belong to you and are being shared by fellow citizens?

Well, I have a couple of thoughts on this.

I have no doubt.

The first is that

I think it's a little bit precious to

say that books are

so fragile that we can't manipulate them with our our hands.

I mean, that's one of the pleasures of reading a paver book versus an e-book, for example.

Paver books are actually much more durable than electronic documents when you think about it.

Because you've tried to destroy them too.

And you know.

And

I personally enjoy when I get a library book out and there's evidence of people having used them before.

I know when I was an undergrad and I did use Sterling for research, et cetera.

Sure.

It was always actually really nice to look to see when students had checked out the books previously, what had been marked there,

to see the marginalia that students would put there.

And I will say that I don't write in books that aren't my own, but when people underline a passage or

write a marginal note, I actually find that very interesting.

It's sort of an.

It's a very interesting artifact when you find a book that someone else has written in.

I remember, I mean, first of all, you may have found some notes by me in Borges' Fixiones because that's where I first,

Sterling Memorial Library is where I first read Borges.

And then my favorite one was

my friend Christine was dating a dude and we were at his apartment.

This was when we were in our 20s.

And he had a copy of Communion by Whitley Strieber.

And I stole it because I wanted to read it.

And I really enjoyed reading his notes.

You know what Communion is about?

Woodley Streeber documenting his belief that he's been abducted by aliens since he was eight years old.

And in one particularly strong passage of alien abduction narrative, Christine's ex-boyfriend wrote, I really grok this.

I loved that so much.

But you know what was true about me writing in the borders of a library book at Sterling Memorial Library and then Christine's ex-boyfriend writing in the borders of communion is we're both in our late teens and early 20s.

We were dum-dums who thought we were better than everyone else because our natural inclination is to feel that way when we were 19 years old.

So you don't write in books.

Not that aren't books that aren't my own.

Right, okay, no, of course.

So

why

bend over the pages?

Why damage the pages of the book and the collection that the library is trying to keep?

I'm not going to give you the argument that most of the books that I've gotten in the library have already been doggied multiple times.

Sounds like you're giving it to me.

Is it really damaging the book?

It doesn't affect the utility of the book.

It's not like I'm ripping out a page that I want to keep for my collection or

I would never fold over a page of a rare or precious book or a picture book where it would actually affect the images in the book.

I'm simply using it to mark my page.

Do you fold over as much of the page as Gina asserts?

She makes it sound like I'm trying to fold a paper airplane out of the page.

I'd say it's an eighth or a sixteenth of the corner of the page.

Do you have a book with you?

Not on my person, but I could demonstrate for you.

Is that your notebook?

Yes.

Oh, here, let me see it.

Just so that I have a visual sense.

So this is your notebook here.

And let's pretend I'm reading a book and I'm you, and I want to mark my page.

Do I do this?

Yes.

Or do I do

this?

And now I'm like, really, there's like more.

Rodman is really ruining his notebook.

That's amazing to watch.

No, no, no, no.

The first one, just the sort of a right-angle.

Because the way that Gina described it, she said you were doing more like this, like half of the whole page folded over.

Or maybe a whole page just sort of crumpled up.

Like this.

This would mark your place, I think.

Oh, no.

See, I accidentally tore out this page.

So that's not something you do.

Not routine.

But do you ever fold it up from the bottom?

If I do it from the bottom, it's something that I want to come back to, and that's a very small.

Okay, so if you were to do it from the bottom, you would do it kind of like just a tiny one.

A teeny tiny one.

Oh, this one already has it done, so I won't do that page, but I'll do, oh, these all do.

This one is a little teeny tiny one, okay.

Right.

But, but then you never do this.

No, no.

All right, good.

There's your book back.

How did it feel to see me bending up all your pages?

Well, I mean, the way you bent it up is a little bit different from what I do, but I know that you're making a point.

I really was.

It made me feel uncomfortable just watching it.

Gina,

has anything that your husband just said changed your mind about his treatment of library books?

No.

Okay.

No, because...

Explain to him

why you feel it is wrong for him to bend down the corners of library books.

I have two points.

First, I feel that if you take out a library book and there are several pages bent over or put back, even if they're put back to their former position, they're still creased.

They're much more likely to tear.

It weakens the quality of the paper.

These books are supposed to be read theoretically hundreds,

depending on how long they stay on the shelves, thousands of times.

They're supposed to be reading.

Talking about the Da Vinci Code.

Talking about the Da Vinci Code.

And it just compromises the quality of the book.

And if that happens to a library book, the librarian is not going to keep it on the shelf and say, look at all these.

These are the best pages that got turned down because they've been dog-eared.

We can really learn something from these dog-eared pages.

They're going to get rid of the book.

And I just wanted to, I just remember an example, a specific example of when we lived in Boston, we lived in Arlington,

and that has a fantastic library.

And I wanted to read Revolutionary Road.

And I just went to the shelves and I took out the library's copy of Revolutionary Road.

It was a first edition.

And that is an old book.

The first edition of that book with its original cover art was still sitting on the shelves all these years later in the public library.

And it wouldn't be there if people mishandled it.

And now any old

person can go to the library and dog ear that book.

And I feel like we're not talking about any old person.

We're talking about one old person.

Yes.

Your husband.

Yeah.

Would you dog ear a page of Revolutionary Road, Craig?

First edition.

If I looked and I saw that it was a first edition,

again, I said, yeah, but it sounds like you're not the kind of guy who I wouldn't even know how to see it if it was a first edition, and it wouldn't occur to me to look.

So if you saw that it was a first edition, you're saying now you wouldn't.

No, and I am actually curious when you get an older library book.

Do you often look at the copyright page?

Because it is interesting to see how old that edition is.

Yeah.

I mean,

I don't want to give the impression that I feel like books are simply just a tool.

I mean, I love books and I love handling books, but I think that the aging of the book is part of what makes it interesting.

Let me ask you: have you consulted with the librarians at the free library of Guilford about this practice?

I have not.

You haven't asked them, do you mind if I do this?

I have not asked them that.

Why not?

I guess it hasn't come up.

What do you think they would say?

Well, I'm guessing from this line of questioning that...

No,

I don't know.

I haven't.

I'm not holding any cards here.

I don't have a...

Guilford librarian in my pocket,

although they are famous for having pocket-sized librarians there.

It's a very weird system.

I think that, honestly,

I guess would you be getting a librarian who is an idealist, or would you be getting a librarian who says all the books are going to be...

I'm talking about the human being who works in the library that you go to every week and that you have to see in as your fellow neighbor and citizen.

Not a hypothetical librarian.

I think some of them might have strong objections to it.

I think some of them maybe just sort of recognize that this is the way that

either a majority or substantial minority of people handle the library.

Can we call them?

The Guilford Library?

Yeah.

Why not?

Yeah, let's call them.

I'll do the talking.

It's my podcast.

Good afternoon, Guilford Library.

May I help you?

Yeah, hi, my name is John Hodgman, and I'm recording a podcast right now.

Do you mind if I put you on the podcast?

I'm sorry, this is just a circulation desk at the library.

Oh, I just have a really quick question about library policy.

Oh, I need to send Jipstitch to the reference desk.

Okay, great, thanks.

This is going to be a dream come true for this librarian.

Reference, can I help you?

Yeah, hi, my name is John Hodgman, and I'm hosting a podcast, and we're talking about libraries.

And first of all, is it okay if I just have a very simple question to ask you.

Is it okay if I record you?

Can I know the question beforehand?

Sure.

The question is, does the library have a policy about library patrons dog-earing copies of books that they borrow?

Actually, I might not even be the person to ask that.

Okay.

Let me put you on hold.

Mondi, I told you we were going to pad this thing right out.

Yeah, right?

Now we're up.

Now we got hold music.

We should Shazam this and see what it is.

The OFFA Library may help you.

Yeah, hi, my name is John Hodgman, and I was just curious,

I have someone here who is a patron of your library who routinely dog ears pages.

You know, he folds over pages when he wants to mark his place.

Does the library like it when that happens, or would they prefer that he not do that?

I'm not sure.

Could you hold on just a moment?

Sure.

No wonder you have just decided to dog your pages because nobody at this library knows if this is something you should do or not.

You would think they would shoot from the hip as a librarian and just say, yeah, the policy that I've created right now is never do that.

It might be that I have to.

This is Nancy.

Can I help you?

Yeah, I'm very sorry to bother you, Nancy.

My name is John Hodgman, and I'm the host of a podcast.

And I'm talking here with one of your patrons who routinely dog ears, that is to say, folds down the corners of pages of books that he takes out of the library.

And I asked him what he thought the librarians would think of that, and he said he didn't know.

So I thought I would call.

He's on the line now.

I won't tell you his name because I think he's embarrassed.

You'll be able to know by the person that returns all the dog-eared books.

Right.

Well, we think that

you're borrowing public property that's owned by the town, and we try to keep it in good condition.

At time to time, we do have repairs for spines that come loose or loose pages.

But we would ask that no one puts markings or dog ears pages.

It does kind of

not nice for the next person who would be checking it out.

Let's put it that way.

Thank you, Nancy.

That's also my position.

Okay.

I really appreciate talking to you.

And is it okay if we include your comment on the podcast?

Sure.

Thank you very much.

All right.

So

missing another call?

This is the sound of that gamble.

I mean, the truth is, Nancy couldn't have put it more plainly.

It is inconsiderate to the next person, and you can't know that the next person is going to enjoy the dog earing the way you enjoy it.

And so you have to be thoughtful of the next person.

But that is not where the complaint ends, is it, Gene?

It's not.

Let us hear more complaining.

Public property, sorted.

Private book property is another story.

I understand.

I can certainly, it's your book, do what you like with it.

He has a policy of, he likes, in our house, to keep the children's bedrooms slightly ajar so they don't slam when there's a draft.

Oh, the doors.

Yes, the doors.

All right.

That's his thing.

He uses the closest book at hand to put on the floor between the door and the door frame to keep the door from slamming during the night.

And he'll use any book that's closest to the door.

And I have found him using library books to do this.

And if not library books, books from our own personal collection.

And usually it has to be a heavy book, a hardcover book, not a paperback that, you know, is more ephemeral.

So I once found him using my childhood illustrated dictionary that I was given many years ago by a dear neighbor.

That I found was very, very inconsiderate and indeed you sent in some evidence a photo of the dictionary being used

I came up with a solution to stop him from doing this I put a wooden block near the door to suggest Use the block

but I did this I wanted to send you a dramatic reenactment So I put the dictionary there moved the

staged photo staged I admit that well now I don't know what to believe well now this is there's more so I moved the block away to stage the photo photo.

That night, the block wasn't there.

What did I find there?

A library book.

How do you respond to that accusation?

Why didn't you leave the block there if you were so worried about the library books?

I did, but it was slightly a few inches out of place, which you didn't see.

So then you got a library book from the dresser.

Let me say

that in terms of heavy, dense objects in our house, in any context, in any place you're standing, there is likely a book within arm's reach because we have a lot of books.

Okay.

I do not remember taking Gina's

dictionary and putting it there.

I may or may not have.

As, you know, clearly, if the one person...

You're saying it's possible they're an intruder came into your home at some point.

I'm saying the one person that's in there like, oh, tripping over all all these books in here.

So many books in here, it's like garbage.

The one person.

I got to steal this block.

What am I going to replace it with?

Because if the door slams and the kids wake up, I know I'll grab this childhood dictionary.

The one person that admits putting the childhood dictionary there is my wife, just to state for the record.

This whole thing, this is like a whole, speaking of books, this might be a whole gone girl situation.

I think I'm being gaslit here, is what I'm saying.

You're saying you're being painted as a villain, but in fact, your wife is doing it all herself.

She did stage a photo.

I have to say, it undercuts your case a little bit.

I did specify that it was a dramatic reenactment.

What if you did that and a terrible draft came in and smashed up your childhood dictionary?

It doesn't seem to be worth that much to you now.

Can we just come back to the dog earing for one moment?

Well, settled law.

Settled law as of minutes ago.

I asked you,

have you ever asked a librarian what they think?

And you said, no, it never came up.

You know why you never asked them, because you knew exactly what they were going to say.

Because you know

the utterly clear golden rule logic behind not damaging, even in a small way, something you are borrowing from someone else.

Well, I mean, you talked to three librarians and only Nancy rendered an opinion, which sounded like a preference and not a policy.

We're going to provide you a copy of the audio of Nancy, and you can listen to it again and see if she's really that ambiguous.

We're moving on to private home book abuse and use here.

I've made my ruling.

If you bring it up again, I'm going to reveal your name to Nancy

and your photo.

Monty, get a photo of them.

Will do.

Now, this is a fair court, and I will give you a fair hearing, both of you,

for your various various book-related reenactments and

staging and phony evidence and everything.

This is no way

reflects prejudice of any kind of how I'm going to hear the second phase of the trial, which is use of books at home.

Complaint number one, using books, including library books, as doorstops.

Complaint number two.

What's complaint number two?

What other misdeeds are going on at home?

At home.

This is only private books.

We have several very nice hardcover books.

Sure.

And when the

defendant uses hardcover books, if they're his or a picture book, he will just take the jacket off and just toss it wherever it lies.

Craig, do you do what she accuses you of doing?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the use of a dust jacket.

My understanding was that the dust jacket should not be on the book when you're reading it.

It's to make the book look nice on the shelf so you take it off when you read the book and you put it back on.

I don't just throw them in the bathtub or the toilet or anything like that.

I put them on the shelf, often where the book has come from, while I'm in the act of reading the book.

I can't stand to read a hardcover book with a dust jacket on it myself, and I will routinely take them off, though I do not know what the purpose of the dust jacket is.

I mean, it's to protect the volume, right, Monty?

From dust, you would think.

From dust, right, you would think, right?

Okay.

Unless you get the dust-proof paper from Back to the Future Part 2.

Right.

But the accusation,

like, how long will the book not have its ⁇ be separated from its dust jacket, typically?

Forever.

All right, Gina.

You've had it pretty good so far.

But I will ⁇ just because I have to actually look you people in the face for once doesn't mean I can't yell at you.

You just take it easy over there.

I'll have order in this courtroom.

Name a hardcover book that you read and you took the dust jacket off.

First one comes comes to mind

i'm trying to think because i just was do you have do you have one the one that you were when the other night you came into the room it took the dust jacket off and chucked it at me i was sapiens that's the name of the book sapiens what's that sapiens what's that it's um it's a book about an anthropologist writing about the sort of the dawn of civil civilization as people transitioned from uh

sort of how homo sapiens took over

from neanderthals yeah yeah and that was non-fiction or it's non-fiction.

Right, okay.

Sounds good.

It is good.

It is good.

Why'd you throw a book jacket on your wife?

I was just making a joke because we knew we were coming on here to discuss this.

Okay.

I admit that.

Okay.

Once again, fake evidence.

I have a specific example.

Fraud a fraud.

That's fruit from the poison tree.

I never understood what that meant.

I have a very specific example if I'm allowed to.

If you give me a faked photograph or

some other piece of evidence that wouldn't have happened unless you were coming on this podcast,

then I may throw your case out.

Okay.

We have several books, a few books, not even several, that have come down to us from family members.

And my son is reading my father's, again, first edition copy of A Peanuts Treasury.

It's from the 1960s.

And of course,

like all hardcover books in that room, the jacket is removed and tossed aside

and left on the floor.

If I did not pick them up and pile them up and put them somewhere, they would stay there.

But who's doing this?

Craig or your son?

Jacques, both.

Both.

You're about to say jacuzzi.

And then I stopped myself.

Porqui.

I always enjoy a good jacuse.

Jeanne, I don't know.

Je lais accuse.

That means I accuse them.

I think.

I don't know.

I didn't know if I wanted to accuse a minor who can't defend himself, but he's learning.

What are they for if not to be accused of things they can't defend themselves of?

He's learning

at the foot of the master is what is a concern of mine.

This specific case of the peanuts dust jacket, which you have sent a photo of as well.

That's an accurate photograph.

How do I even know at this point?

Fruit of the poisoned tree.

Why are there poisoned trees also, by the way?

Is it biblical?

I don't remember.

Where do you get your poison from?

Bitter almonds.

Okay, so here it is.

Yeah, this dust jacket is pretty torn up.

It's torn.

And I just want to see.

How did it get torn up, Craig?

My father is very meticulous, and he had that book for 50 years with no tears in it, and then it's in our house for 10 minutes, and the jacket's torn up.

In that particular instance, I will say my son was doing this on his own because he reads comics on his own.

Yeah, is this a fight with your son or with your husband?

I think he's modeling bad behavior.

Do you have any proof of that?

The Peanuts Treasury.

Yeah, but how old is the son again?

He's eight.

Yeah.

Guess what?

Guess what?

Maybe, maybe he's maybe he's just eight.

Doesn't know that it's a first edition of a Peanuts Treasury.

But that's just one example.

There are other dust jackets which he removes.

They're all over the place.

I either pile them up and stick them back on the shelf where they tear.

They never read the book and then put the dust jacket back.

And by they, you're talking about

your sons or your husband?

I'll leave the son out, just the husband.

What happens is I just get double clutter because he never says, oh, I'm done with the book.

I'm going to reshelve it.

Let me get the dust jacket.

No, the dust jacket has scattered to the four winds and is lying around someplace.

You have a lot of winds and drafts in your home.

And you have a book doorstop.

Yeah.

See?

So your accusation is that Craig will take the dust jacket off a book such as Sapiens, throw it at his wife, never pick it up, finish the book

and assume that I'll deal with it or just it gets trashed.

Craig, are you mindful of the work you leave for others?

Yes, and I'm very appreciative of the work that my wife does, which is greater than mine to keep the house neat.

I will say sometimes

I can put the book, the jacket back in the book when I'm done with the book, if I don't know where it's been put.

You're accusing your wife of cleaning up after you too much.

Is that right?

Well, I mean, that does sound like that, doesn't it?

Your hands are tied.

You can put the dust jacket that I left on the floor into some other place that I can't find.

I don't know what to do with this book anymore.

I guess I'll leave it in the oven.

My practice is to put the book jacket on the shelf and then retrieve it from it when I put the book away.

Would you say, Craig, that you and your wife have a different relationship with books?

Well, I think that's pretty clear.

I will say we're both lovers of books and avid readers.

When I was a kid,

really reading was my primary escape.

And, you know, I wasn't a kid doing a lot of sports or anything like that.

So I read a ton.

And

do you think as you were growing up that you had a more physical relationship with books in the way you do now that is different from your wife's?

Well, I will say my dad, maybe this is its nature and nurture, but he is an inveterate dog eater of books as well.

That is where I learned it.

Yeah.

And

that

I don't want to give the impression that our books are generally in horrible condition in our house.

We all sometimes are not as careful with our books.

You know, I mean, just like any object which you own,

sometimes.

Your argument is she had an accident once, and therefore you can routinely be rough on books on purpose.

I would say that if you looked through our books in our home,

you would not see a section of books that are in horrible condition, which are mine, and a group of books that are in terrific condition that are hers.

Overall, our books are in excellent condition.

Gina, you disagree that overall your books are in excellent condition?

I think they're in good condition, but I give myself more of the credit for that.

Because you're picking up the dust jackets?

Yes, I'm picking up the dust jackets and I'm putting them away when they otherwise get left on the floor.

Do you guys keep separate libraries?

Not really, no.

Your collection of books is all mixed together on a shelf?

Yes.

How many books would you guess you have, Gina?

In the house?

Yeah.

I would say probably a thousand, a lot.

And you have them all up on shelves?

It sounds to me, from your description,

my goal is for them to be up on shelves, but they're not often always there.

Are they organized in any way?

It's just the children's books are kept separately from the adult books, but they're not otherwise.

I have

a collection of first editions, and I have a lot of signed books from when I used to work in publishing.

I keep those separate.

What did you do in publishing?

I worked in marketing for

your house.

I'm sure that I've heard of it.

It's a big one.

It's nice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I have lots of those that

I keep separate.

And the children's books.

Listen, I don't want to talk about the children's books because the children are monsters to books.

That's just what they do.

Right.

I'm talking about the man-child who's your husband.

That's a different story.

Okay.

Is your house a mess?

No.

Okay.

It's not, and Craig, you agree your house is not a mess?

No, I think our house

is, you know, it has moments of clutter, but I think there aren't many people with small kids that don't have areas of clutter or moments of clutter in their homes.

I'm just trying to discern to what degree this is an issue of

you see clutter where Craig does not.

And is that true

overall?

Yes.

One thing that I'm really enjoying about having you guys in studio, and I'm sorry that we can't share it with you, the home listener, is the reactions from

both litigants, but especially right now, Craig, I've seen this a couple of times, times, where you truly, your head kind of goes back

and your eyes widen a little bit and you start shaking your head like, what are you even talking about?

As the person in the house who does most of the work to keep the house clean and who also cares the most if the house is clean, because for my own sense of well-being and comfort,

There are others in the house that don't see the mess, see the problem,

and so they just ignore it.

But then, when I take step, well, this is a whole other thing, but when I take steps to declutter and move things around, then I'm accused of mishandling and losing their things, which I find unfair.

Are we talking about children or Craig?

Craig.

When did Craig accuse you of mishandling something?

Oh, Craig, do you have any complaints about your wife mishandling your personal items?

No, I appreciate everything that she does for us.

All right.

Now try a non-lying version of it.

Do you know what she's referring to?

Oh, I do.

I do.

You know, unfortunately, and this is, I take some ownership of this, is

we know, my boys and I, that the easiest way to find something is to ask mommy where it is because mommy is likely the person to have put it there.

And it's our own fault for not putting the stuff away

sometimes.

So I will own that.

Well,

what is she talking about where she cleaned something up and you're like,

You moved it?

What?

Give me one example.

Well, I mean, there's certain books,

certain books for work that I've left out that I've had some difficulty locating.

There was a book that you couldn't find recently.

It was a pulmonology book that you couldn't find and accused me of mislaying

that ended up being in a box of books you never unpacked when we moved.

A.

But I first had to be accused of mislaying it.

Second of all,

if you can't find a book and I put it away, where do you think I'm going to put it?

Like in the fridge?

I'm going to put it with other books.

Do you think maybe one of your creepy lying kids stole it in his sleep?

Doctor, heal thy kid.

All right, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to render a decision.

I am going to leave the room.

Wow.

and go into my special guest chambers here at WRSI The River 93.9, Bailiff Monty Belmonte.

Would you ask them to please rise?

Yes, please rise as Judge John Hodgman leaves the radio studio.

Should I rise?

Here I go.

Not a sound effect.

No.

Actually has left the room.

Craig and Gina, that was quite the endeavor there.

You had a a judgment about the library books for sure from a librarian.

Are you comfortable with that decision, Craig?

No more dog-earing library books because librarian says so.

I will abide by the judge's ruling on this.

The judge or the librarian?

Well, I'm going to have a word with Nancy, to be honest, but I would like to actually see if there is an official policy or it's just a preference stated on

you just so doggedly want to dog ear.

When you go to a...

Sorry, I can't hear you.

Normally I can hear you.

Come in, come back in, come back in.

No, No, no, no.

I want to keep this.

But is there any chance that Craig brought up the idea of dog-earing books at the library?

Yes, he did.

I see.

Thank you very much.

Okay.

Monty, get Nancy's email address.

Guilford.

Free library.

We'll do.

As I was saying.

When you rent a parking space, you know, like you put in a couple quarters at a parking space, do you paint that space?

You decorate it the way you want.

It's yours temporarily.

You feel like you can do whatever you want with it?

Well, you know, we did live in Boston where historically you'd put a bureau or a lawn chair there to stay.

And outlawed by the city of Boston, though, I believe.

Which I applaud, by the way.

So you think that is a good decision, but your students should be allowed to use public property to dog here in any way see fit.

Well,

as I said, I'm going to go by the course decision, but I just am seeking clarification.

We'll be back in just a moment with Judge John Hodgman's decision.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back.

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So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

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Same episode, actually.

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Episode 64.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

Why aren't you standing up?

Oh, here we go.

Stand up.

Okay.

This is great.

We should have gotten robes.

Or I could have dressed up like a police officer.

My underwear is robes.

I just can't see it.

Please be seated.

Gina, you're in a bad spot.

You obviously are a very happy couple and have a lot of affection for each other.

You have

spawned progeny.

You guys are in it forever.

But you are a neat person

who

now shares a home with three dudes,

two of whom are children and are just by nature unneat.

And the other one is a guy who not only defaces library property, but defends it even after one is ruled against him.

Willful, willful and intelligent man.

And more to the point, I mean, I think it's, it's,

I asked, you know, is this a larger issue of clutter that you, that you see clutter that your spouse doesn't?

Because that is,

uh, I, you and I are in the same position.

I am an only child.

So I grew up having everything exactly where I wanted it to be.

And it is the psychological bane of my existence that I now live with other human beings who have no regard whatsoever for

my

where I put my things down.

And so things will constantly be moved

like things like pens, Monty.

Pens and books.

Not really books so much.

And more, of course, that, you know,

my wife and I have children who are, they're just a mess.

They don't know.

They're not real humans yet.

And, you know, my wife, whom I adore, also

is in many ways a very tidy person, but she just, I see more clutter than she does.

This is constant, this is constant.

You know, there is a battle that goes on in my house, and I feel you for this, about leaving things at the end of the counter in a

heavily traveled walkway in the kitchen, you know, heavily traveled path.

And it's nobody's fault, but my wife...

believes that leaving things at the end of the counter is putting them away.

Whereas I believe leaving things at the end of the counter is an invitation for me to trip and fall,

especially when it's a banana peel.

And this sounds like I'm complaining about my wife.

I'm not.

I'm just saying she sees the world in an almost congenitally different way when it comes to that.

And leaving shoes out.

You let the record show that Gina pointed at Craig.

Jaccuse.

El accuse Craig.

See, I don't really know French very well.

Yeah.

But I can count in French thanks to Hamilton Musical.

That's our mandatory Hamilton reference for the show.

Oh, yeah.

We'll talk more about that later.

Yes.

And I'm here to tell you that I can rule up, down, and all around town in your favor if I choose to.

But this is never, ever, ever going to change.

Because look, you're the daughter of a man who kept a first edition childhood copy of a peanuts treasury in perfect condition from when he was presumably a child, right?

He didn't mess that thing up the way your dumb kids messed it up in a day.

And you're looking at a situation where, like, you're your, you're your

father's daughter, but Craig is his father's son.

Dog your

second generation dog year,

doggy the second,

Lord Dog Ear II

and

your worry must be bone deep

that your sons are going to get not just his habits but whatever genetically inside of him looks at a piece of public property and says this is mine to destroy.

Let the record show that the plaintiff is nodding sadly.

Since we're here, you may say, you may speak.

This is not just me yelling at you guys.

Okay.

Now, here's the thing, Craig.

I don't want to talk about this library thing anymore.

It's obvious that what you are in the habit of doing

is, in fact, destructive, however, mildly.

What pleasure you take in finding dog eared into Facebooks and the stories that they tell, and I agree that there is pleasure there,

does not empower you to continue the tradition for a future reader whose preferences you don't know.

And as they are shared property of the free library,

consideration insists that you not continue in this habit that you have,

and ideally not pass along this moral lapse to your children by modeling it for them.

Take good care of the books

you take out from the library.

And I don't know if your library accepts donations, but I think you owe them one.

On that note.

Now,

your own books, and I think you obviously agree with this, I mean, you've even stated it, and even Gina said, do whatever you want to your own books.

Take all those dust covers,

beat them up, write in them, dog ear them.

Because I do think that

There is something pleasurable about the physical mangling of a book

that you enjoy.

And especially over time, the book takes on a patina of use.

Just as you perceive clutter differently in the world, though,

I think you also perceive

proper care of books in an almost genetically different way.

The fact that you would continue to defend defacing public property to me suggests like you just you see the world in a

you're a prey you're a sociopath is what i'm saying

in this area you know what i mean You just don't see,

you just don't see things the way they are.

See things the way they are in your own mind.

And

while it is certainly within even a fake court's purview to ban you with potential real-world repercussions of punishment

via Nancy, if you continue to mess up the Guilford Free Library's collection within your own life, the truth is the the court has very little power to change how you read, enjoy, and experience books.

With only the exception of this.

Don't make extra work for other people.

In life, sometimes you can't merge your libraries.

Sometimes you have to keep separate libraries, even in marriage, literally,

because someone has a collection of books that is meaningful to them and they don't want your 35 copies of Communion chunking it up.

And more more figuratively as well, where you have to, you have to mark out territory so that you can come back to that territory and see it in the way you left it.

Craig, map out your own space for your junk.

Do whatever you want to books.

Don't leave book jackets around and don't use books as doorstops.

The only caveat, I mean, obviously I'm finding in Gina's favor on almost all points, if not all points here, but I do, this court does want to say,

and it's not just because we're sitting right in front of each other.

Craig, I do not hate you.

I respect your right to really dig into books physically.

But you have to do that only on books that you own and not make extra work for others.

Let's play brass bonanza as we go out.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all go-whalers.

Gina Craig, how do you feel about Judge John Hodgman's decision?

There's very little repercussion for you, Craig, it seems, except for the library books.

And it seems like you've got nearly everything you wanted, Gina.

I knew he would find the crux.

He found the crux,

and he spoke to exactly what the real issue is that bothers me.

And he said it exactly how I would say it.

Do you believe that you will stop dog-earing library books now that the librarian scolded you on this podcast?

I will abide by the decision of the court and by Nancy.

I will also like to, I'll buzz market two more local hero things.

One, go to the Montague Book Mill in Montague, where one Judge John Hodgman may have actually written a book or two and look in their bathrooms where they have collected all of these found items from books, things that people wrote in books, pictures that were left in books.

So there is a purpose for that.

And there was an exhibit at Mass Mocha, the Museum of Contemporary Art, where you were just nearly at.

We actually

went to that exhibit

and I submitted a photo from that exhibit as part of my evidence

because more false evidence it was not it was real it was your photo or was it a photo from the exhibit from someone else it was a photo I took of an object in an installation in the exhibit but it was not his and you didn't try to portray it as his I did not

I think it's pretty honest I think I'm being honest there right

for some reason I just see this old-timey photo of a cat riding a dog so I don't know what you think this is what fun for me maybe you and I just see things differently.

Maybe, maybe.

Well, thank you both for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast and being here live in the studio.

It's fun to watch all of your nonverbal communication.

I thought you might get divorced there for a little while.

No, I would never divorce these guys, Monty.

Come on.

Thank you guys very much.

Thank you.

Stick around while we do the wrap-up, I guess.

Yeah.

Hi, this is Judge John Hodgman.

I am sometimes a resident of the Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, and we plugged a lot of great things, And I just want to go over them again, Monty, so people don't forget.

Yes, let's.

Sylvester's?

Sylvester's Coffee here in North Carolina.

And where the Graham Cracker was invented by Sylvester Graham, his former housekeeper.

We can do it for every one of them.

Okay, fine.

WRSI The River 93.9 FM and online at WRSI.com.

Where you can listen to Monty Belmonte every morning.

Is that not so?

That's true.

Or you can maybe see him in person on Friday, March 4th to see Red Barat at the Shea Theater in Turner's Falls, which is going to be an amazing concert.

Yes.

Go get your used and defaced books at the Montague Bookmill.

We also plugged Mass Mocha, the Museum of Contemporary Art in North Adams.

Big ups also to the Shelburne Falls Bowling Alley.

We didn't plug them, but they're great too.

Oh,

we went there after going to Nancy Dole's.

Second oldest bowling alley in the country.

Is that so?

Yes.

I don't even know where the first one is.

Candlepin Bowling.

Matt did a great job of sneaking us in between two birthday parties.

Big downs to the West Leiden Road, which was too slick, and so our car spun around.

I hate that.

Turn into the skid.

I know.

Monty, I thought we were going to die.

But if you visit Western Massachusetts, just like Gina and Craig did, did either of you die?

Not yet.

No, we're doing just fine.

And did you have a nice time?

We had a fantastic time.

It was terrific.

All right.

Very good.

Go, Massachusetts.

Thanks to Alex Overall for his suggestion, Rex Libris, for suggesting this week's case name.

To suggest a name for a future case, like us on Facebook, we regularly put out a call for submissions.

If you have a case for the judge, submit it at www.maximumfund.org/slash jjhoe.

The Max Fund Drive is coming up shortly.

That's true.

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I've been your good time, wintertime, bailiff, Monty Belmonte.

Julius Smith produces the show.

Mark McConville is our editor.

Thanks for joining us for the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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