I Was Dreaming When I Wrote This, So Sue Me if I Judge Too Fast LIVE in Portland, ME!

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

With me is the great Judge John Hodgman.

Hello.

We've got a brand new episode recorded live on stage in your neck of the woods, John, Portland, Maine.

We talked about being naked at home, glasses, both drinking and wearing, doing needlecraft in bed, and writing dream sequences in your short stories.

And we were joined by our friends Joel Mann and the night and day jazz trio, right, Joel?

You were there.

I was there.

And it was a good time, right?

Wonderful time.

Thank you.

Let's go to the stage at the State Theater in Portland, Maine.

People of Portland, Maine, you asked us for live justice, and we are here to deliver it.

The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Let's start our first case.

Please welcome to the stage Emily and Nikki.

Emily brings the case against her husband, Nikki.

Emily likes to embroider in bed, but Nikki wants to keep needles as far away from their bed as possible.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

Emily and Nikki may be seated.

Thank you for joining us.

Who seeks justice in my fake court?

I do, Your Honor.

You would be Emily.

That is I.

Well, tell me about your hobby.

It's embroidery, right?

Yes, I embroider, I knit, I quilt, I mend.

I also sell some of the work I make, so it's more than a hobby.

Okay, do you have a website you want to buzz market?

My business is Bellear.

Bellearth.

I don't know what that was, an audio problem.

Try it again.

Bell Earth Studio.

Say it again.

Bell Earth.

No, honestly, I do want to know what.

Bell Earth Studio.

Bell Earth.

My last name is Belle Hearth.

It's German.

It's hard to pronounce, and that's always how it takes.

It's great for a URL.

Yeah.

So Belle Earth is how I teach people to pronounce my last name.

I have a question.

Nikki, you can probably take a walk.

Embroidery versus cross-stitching.

What's the difference?

Super different.

Yeah, go on.

Cross-stitching comes with a sort of interface with a grid on it.

You can sort of work within that grid embroidery.

Oh, right.

It's got a picture on the thing, and so you're filling it in with little, okay, what's the little paint by numbers.

A little paint by numbers.

I should tell that to my wife as a whole human in her own right.

Yeah, embroidery more free form.

What kind of things do you embroider?

I do sashiko embroidering, so it's a Japanese style of embroidering.

I use it to create.

Is that when you smash the pottery and put it together with gold?

Exactly, with the needle.

No,

it's like quilting together different things.

I naturally dye fabric and then I do these patterns on it that I make into pillows or I will use to like mend a quilt in this case.

That's very impressive.

Nikki, I can see why you don't want to share a bed with this person.

Nikki, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to malign you.

You haven't even had a chance to speak for yourself.

What is your side of the story?

I mean,

I just fundamentally don't think that there should be super sharp things in the bed

in case that they escape from her

and end up in me.

I see.

And embroidery, you use a sharp needle.

Well, specifically, the case, the actual incident that led me to bring this case is that I've been mending a quilt that we have.

We have a puppy who would sometimes make holes in our quilt.

And I do the sashiko embroidering patches over these holes.

And I was using pins to hold the patches down before I would embroider.

Okay.

The pins are sharp is what you're saying.

The pins and the needle were sharp.

Yes.

And what style of pin are you using?

Safety pin or danger pin?

Danger pin.

Yeah.

But with the big colorful circle on top.

So

I came up to bed one evening and I was about to get into bed and Emily was like, oh wait, hold on, hold on, hold on.

I lost a needle.

Like, let's find it together.

Sure.

And we can't see it.

And do you sleep in a haystack?

Yes or no?

What did you say?

Do you sleep in a haystack?

Yes or no?

Indeed, no.

All right.

Regular, regular bed.

Yeah.

Probably a mattress you got from a podcast ad.

Probably did, yeah.

I mean, it's a mattress, so you probably did.

Has it happened that you've been stuck then?

Not in bed, but yes, on the couch.

Yes, in life.

I sat on a pin.

You sat on a pin,

one of your pins?

This was many years ago, and I don't have a distinct memory of it.

That's convenient, isn't it?

But for a larger context, I

have suffered a traumatic brain injury in the last five years.

It's caused me to be most to have a lot of bed rest.

So a lot of my craft.

How can I get some of that?

Yeah.

Hit your head super hard.

No, I do not recommend.

I'm sorry that

you do not recognize it.

And I couldn't read.

I'm still rehabbing.

I'm much better, but I was multiple years stuck at home, not allowed to read, not allowed to watch TV.

And so handling.

Nikki wouldn't allow you to read or watch TV.

Nikki, also my doctor.

And so I was stuck in bed, and doing handcrafts was like super important to me.

And I still have times where that's important to me.

So I really want to be able to do my crafts in bed.

And

I knew I'd lost the pin.

We communicated and no one got hurt.

Did Nikki, did you ban needles in bed formally?

I did.

Unfortunately, she has, without my knowledge, been using them in bed since this incident.

And no one's one's been hurt.

This is why we need to eliminate the civil service.

When you banned the needles in bed,

what did you go to the town office or something?

Did you let Emily know that you had banned needles in bed?

I think I asked her.

Yeah.

Well, okay, that's different than banning.

Yeah.

You said, please don't use needles in bed.

Yeah.

And Emily, did you agree at that time?

I did, but I also used some needles to make this sweater, which I would argue is not only

benefiting him, but all of us, because it's so beautiful.

Nikki, do I have...

May I touch your sweater?

Yes, you may.

Ow!

Shit!

It's full of needles.

No, it's a beautiful sweater.

If you were to judge in my favor, I would not ask you to ban knitting needles.

They are not very sharp.

Sure, that's true.

But they gouge pretty good.

Don't ask how I know.

But they're probably less dangerous, right?

Indeed.

So how did you feel when you learned that Emily had gone against your ban?

Or shall we put it more nicely, your request?

I was surprised, but also happy to know that she hadn't lost another one.

Emily, is there anywhere else you can work on these projects other than bed?

Sometimes I work on the couch.

That's a danger zone too.

That's also a danger zone.

And sometimes I have a small little studio space that I work in, but specifically this quilt project, it's the only space in the house I can get the quilt flat on

and work on it.

So you're not using the bed for bedrest in this case, you're using it as a workstation.

It is my mending station.

All right.

I'll tell you what.

I've got to keep this justice swift because we're in bulk justice mode.

I will not deny you

your right to work on projects in bed so long as you patrol the needles.

I will say that your bed is for your marital companionship, not for your arts and crafts.

And I will also say that if your husband asks you not to use needles and you agree, you actually have to agree and not do it.

So I'm going to fine you $1,000.

Oh dear.

Sentence suspended, of course.

You're on probation.

You can work on your crafts in bed, but you absolutely have to patrol those needles.

And what I ask you to do, and no longer put the quilt on the bed, you got to find another work area for that.

Maybe go to someone else's house or something like that.

Someone else's bed.

Yeah, exactly.

Go to someone else's bed.

You've driven her into another person's bed, Nikki.

I hope you're happy.

And I order that your next craft be a little doll of Nikki so you have a place to put your needles when you're done for the night.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Thank you.

Thank you, Emily and Nikki.

Please welcome to the stage Sam and Charlotte.

Sam thinks his wife Charlotte needs glasses, but Charlotte says she has perfect vision.

The eye doctor told her so eight years ago.

Sam wants a second opinion.

Judge Hodgman.

Welcome to the court of Judge Sean Hodgman.

You may be seated, Sam and Charlotte.

Sam,

you bring this case.

I do.

You think that Charlotte needs glasses.

I definitely do.

What is your career, sir?

So when we started learning.

What is your career, sir?

Sorry?

What is your...

Maybe you need a hearing aid.

Maybe.

Is this getting through to you?

Much better.

Do you have an occupation or a vocation?

I do.

I work in politics.

I see.

Yes.

What fun for you?

Yes.

Are you perhaps a part-time ophthalmologist?

I am not.

Can you spell that word?

Probably.

If you can, I will rule in your favor right now.

O-P-T-H-A.

Wrong.

O-P-H-T-H-A-L.

Wow.

M-O-L.

O-G-I-S-T.

It's a tricky one.

That is.

It's a tricky one.

It's a stumper.

Surprising.

All right.

So

you are not medically licensed to diagnose your wife's vision, and yet you have made observations that her vision might be declining, correct?

That is correct.

And I wear glasses for the podcast listeners, so I have a lot of personal experience with how big a difference they make.

Not when listening to podcasts, I'm sure.

For the people who can't see me, I'm saying.

No, no, I understand.

When he says

he wears glasses for the podcast listener, what he means is that he wears glasses so that the four-eyed nerd who listens to podcasts can relate to him.

That's exactly.

What have you observed in Charlotte's vision or lack thereof?

What is it giving you concern, suggesting that she needs vision correction?

Yeah, so what originated all of this was that when we moved in together around eight years ago, it became quickly apparent that Charlotte could not read things on the TV.

Not just the subtitles, those were okay.

But when we were looking at what to watch and there are the different menus and descriptions of things, she couldn't read them at all.

Is that true?

Do you have difficulty reading, not subtitles, but other

captions and stuff?

Netflix blurbs, I couldn't read those on TV.

Right, you're really missing out.

They're really beautiful writing.

It says here that you also have difficulty reading the oven clock.

Is that true?

Yeah, digital clock.

Sometimes she'll ask me what it says when we're both in the kitchen standing next to each other.

That's just laziness.

Okay.

I'll allow that.

We'll dismiss that evidence right away.

You should be lazy.

Have you ever worn glasses?

I had a pair of glasses when I was a teenager.

And then you stopped wearing them.

You saw this eye doctor eight years ago.

What did they say?

The eye doctor, when I told him that I couldn't read the descriptions on Netflix, told him that I had, quote, unreasonable expectations for what the human eye can accomplish.

And

wow.

Imagine if your cardiologist told you that.

Totally.

I would love to hear that from my personal trainer.

If I were paying an eye doctor for that, I might want a bit of a refund.

But you bought this, right?

Well, he also told me to get a bigger TV.

So

we got a bigger TV and the problem is solved, in my opinion.

There's something here about bagging your glasses?

Yeah, I had a very old pair of glasses and I showed them to him and he said, bag them.

Bag them.

Bag them.

That is, throw them away.

Throw them away.

And you've never worn glasses since.

Never, never.

Did you go to an eye doctor or did you go to a character on a police procedural?

When you first heard this story about this eye doctor,

Sam, what did you think?

I definitely think he was a quack.

I don't know how to do it.

Should we do a bus market for him, too?

I don't remember his name.

It was a long time ago.

That's true.

Eight years, that's true.

It's a lifetime.

I mean, it really is.

Charlotte, have you noticed a difference in your vision since you stopped wearing your glasses?

Not particularly.

Really?

I mean, I don't know what your prescription was.

Are you near-sighted, far-sighted?

What?

Well, I have one eye that can see really good distance and one that can see pretty good close-up.

So I solve most problems by closing one of them.

May I recommend an incredible eye patch that you move from eye to eye?

I would love that, yes.

Sam, Charlotte's the one who has to tolerate the discomfort of not reading these things.

How does this affect you?

Why don't you just let her enjoy her vanity eye patch or whatever she's trying to do?

Well, for the record, I would be happy with an order for an eye patch as well.

So ordered.

But I do think it impacts her quality of life.

It is partly that she asks me to read things, and I'd like her to be able to read them for myself.

But recently, we went to see Book of Mormon, and she was unable to see a lot of the people on stage, and I could see them very clearly.

And so, I was thinking that she would enjoy things like plays and also a lot of other things in life better if she could see better.

Could I suggest have you thought about getting a bigger Book of Mormon?

Does it seem like it would be a solution?

Just to be clear, I just couldn't see their faces very well, so I think we should have gotten better seats.

Wow.

Did you see Book of Mormon in New York, or were you watching it from Portsmouth, New Hampshire?

It was here in Portland, Maine.

Oh, in Portland.

Oh, in Portland, Maine.

I see.

Look, I am not an ophthalmologist of any kind, never mind a quack.

And yet I am going to, I do want to evaluate your vision.

So, Charlotte, could you turn to the screen and take a look at this chart?

Oh, no.

Could you read the lines, the letters above the green bar?

Do you see the green bar?

I can see the green bar, yes.

You're not colorblind?

No, I'm not, but he is, actually.

Okay, well, luckily he's not on trial.

Yes, I can see those letters.

Would you read them out for me, please?

P-S-W-O.

From the top, please.

A-G-A-L-L-O-N-O-F-S-C-A-L-L-O-P-S-W-E-R-U.

I'm not sure.

And what does that spell?

All right.

I don't know.

Do you not.

Okay, that's fine.

Can you read the letters?

Oh,

a gallon of

calops?

Scallops.

Scallops.

W-E-R-U, our co-sponsors for the evening.

There we go.

Yes.

Took me a minute there.

Can you read the letters below the green bar, the two lines there?

Bring back scrapple.

At the Hannafords.

At the Hanafords.

Yes, that's...

Sure.

Joel, they used to have Scrapple at the Hannafords near my house.

Then they just took it away for some reason.

Used to have it in the freezer case.

Bring back scrapple.

Does anyone in the audience have a brick of scrapple or an eye patch?

I'll take either one.

Just bring it to the foot of the steak.

Well, Sam, I'm sorry to say that Charlotte nailed that exam pretty well.

Not only did she see all the letters, but she was able to put them together and read my secret messages.

I would say, however, though, Charlotte, you should go and see an eye doctor for real.

It's up to you whether you want to wear glasses, but I would ask you to consult a doctor who actually wants to do their job and make sure that your eye health is good because there have been people in my life who have had detached retinas all of a sudden and you just want to keep on top of that because it's a part of your body that you rely upon.

In that case, I find in Sam's favor.

Thank you, Sam and Charlotte.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Please welcome to the stage Sophia and Shira.

Shira loves to be naked in the privacy of her own home.

Her Her girlfriend Sophia has no problem with this except for one thing.

Sophia can't stand it when Shira sits naked on the couch.

Shira just wants to be free.

Sophia and Shira, welcome.

You may be seated.

May I ask, who here is Shira and who's Sophia?

I'm Sophia.

You are Sophia.

And

you are...

You are the non-naked one.

I mean, you're both clothed for the listeners right now.

We are.

We are clothed.

Shira, you like to lounge in the nude.

Who doesn't?

I think I've heard everything I need to.

Oh, that's true.

Jesse, you do enjoy wearing clothes and knowing about clothes.

Yeah, yeah.

Clothes can be wonderful.

So, Sophaya, you have an issue with Shira's nakedness.

Tell me how this started.

Well, it really starts when Shira comes home from a long, sweaty bike ride.

And she comes in the house and she strips off her bike shorts and she sits right down on the couch

and I just think about all the absorption happening

and I don't love it

what

what kind of couch are we talking about here what is the surface is it plush it's like spongy upholstery like a not leather for example it's not easily wiped it's no from sweat on right okay it's it's also a second-hand couch which

so it's full of secretions already so who cares true

much more intimate secretions than mere bike sweat

possible shira tell us about the pleasure that you get sitting naked on the couch

it's a summertime pleasure yeah go on

i don't know

you go on a bike ride and it's like the bike shorts you got to get them off.

And then, what do you mean?

You sit on like the uncomfortable wooden kitchen chair when you get home?

He's like, no, you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'll say this.

I don't exercise very much,

but I do sweat a lot.

I'm not the party who sweats a lot.

Oh.

This is true.

You sweat more than Shira does.

Way more.

Well, what I was going to say is that when I am very sweaty,

me personally, I don't find it refreshing to get as close to upholstery as possible

is there something about maybe you don't see it this way but is there something about the transgression of being naked in furniture in your own home that just feels fun and empowering to you or is there something else at work Definitely wouldn't have been acceptable in my childhood home too.

Yeah, so maybe there's a freedom there.

Now that you're an adult, you just want to do whatever you want.

Yeah, sure.

And you don't need mommy, Sophia, telling you what to do.

Okay, well, it should be said that when this first came up months ago, and we had this discussion, and then I haven't sat on the couch without any clothes on ever since.

Yeah, but it's wintertime now.

No, it started in the summer.

Oh, okay.

It started in the summer, and we had this conversation, and

I've been at least underwear ever since.

She's been abstaining.

So it sounds like the whole thing has been resolved.

Well, no, I was hoping you'd rule in my favor.

All right.

Sophia, the couch is secondhand.

It's not pristine.

I'm sure it's a lovely piece of furniture, but it's also a piece of junk at this point.

Why not let your partner just enjoy themselves?

Oh, it just icks me out.

And think about anybody else who comes over.

They don't know that Shira's been sitting taking part of the fun.

And they have clothes on.

Just like you didn't know about all the juices that had been placed in the couch before you obtained it.

If She-Ra were freshly showered, would that make a difference,

Savaya?

It's a really good question.

Thank you.

I think it's better.

Someone wrote it down for me.

Thanks, Jennifer Marmer.

Great question.

I think it's better and like less offensive, but I still would wish that Shira would have underwear on.

That's my bare minimum for clothing on the couch.

Is this compromise acceptable to you, Shira?

I can live with it.

Can I just share one other piece of evidence?

Yes, of course, please.

Sophia has shared her deep desire to sit on the couch after a bike ride naked with me before.

But I have.

Is this so?

Yes, it's so.

Sophia, how do you respond to that?

Is that true?

It's true.

I admit I have felt the urge and I have held myself back.

I've sat on the rug instead.

We're gonna

Judge Hodgman,

we're gonna need that

ophthalmologist

from the crime procedural to bring a black light over to their house.

Absolutely.

Was that exciting to sit on the rug, nude?

Maybe a little.

Not too much?

Do you resent Shira, her freedom

and imagination, and just going for it?

I'll let that silence speak.

One last question before I make my verdict.

Do you have a dog or a cat?

Cat.

Desdemona.

Fantastic.

Does Desdemona wear diapers when hanging on the couch?

She does not.

I think it's pretty clear that anyone can be nude on this couch if they want.

Out of consideration for your beloved Shira, I would suggest that you put a towel down on the couch

just to

because you don't want your partner being skeeved.

And by the way, She-Ra, you should sit naked on that couch.

But here's the thing.

Even if you want to and you don't do it, don't let Shira call you a hypocrite.

Because the truth is, we're all fucking hypocrites.

Doesn't prove anything.

I find in Shira's favor plus talent.

Thank you, Sophia and Shira.

Portland, Maine.

Are you ready for

mega justice?

Let's bring out our litigants.

Please welcome to the stage Emily and Judd.

Tonight's case.

I was dreaming when I wrote this, so sue me if I judge too fast.

Emily was previously a litigant at our live show here in Portland in 2016.

Now she's back for more justice.

She and her friend Judd are in a local writing group.

Emily likes to write fiction that includes dream sequences.

Judd thinks thinks dream sequences are cheating.

He wants to ban dream sequences from all writing.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Never talk

about how you slept.

Nobody cares.

Don't talk about your health either.

Nobody cares.

Root talk.

Root talk is when people tell you how they arrived or how they came, how they got on the road, which road, how long it took.

That is the top of my list for what you don't talk about.

And also, your dreams.

Nobody cares about your dreams.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Emily and Judd, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god or whatever

yes i do do you swear to abide by judge john hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he dreams of electric sheep

i do what is it what does it even mean judge hodgman you may proceed emily and judd you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom.

Emily, nice to see you again.

Welcome back to the court.

I'll let Judd guess first because he's new here.

Judd, what's your guess?

That's someone's mother on an episode of This American Life talking about the seven or eight things she doesn't want to hear about.

That's an interesting guess, Judd.

Do you have a guess, Emily?

I think it was Andy Rooney.

No.

And, Judd, I have to say, you got it exactly right.

Almost.

It was specifically seven things, not seven or eight.

And you did not name the year in which this episode came out, which was 2013, a year that I'm feeling very nostalgic for.

You did not mention that it was Maria Matheson as told to her daughter, this American Life and serial producer, Sarah Koenig, in the episode entitled The Seven Things You're Not Supposed to Talk About.

These are the topics, as you identified, in Sarah's mom's world, should be avoided at all costs because they are boring and nobody cares.

You can talk about them among families, perhaps, such as when Sarah asked her mom, well, what if I get sick and I want to talk about my health?

Do you not care?

And she replied, the mom replied, no, I care.

And I'd say, well, I'm terribly sorry, you poor thing.

And then I'd forget about it and go on with my life, as most people would.

That, by the way, spot on, great guess.

I wish I could give it to you, but we got a show to do.

so you will forgive me for not offering you a summary judgment, but I'm going to give you a

bit of a head start to make your case.

What's going on here?

Well, dreams are boring, and no one wants to hear about them.

They're tedious and non-narrative, but I think the my real objection is that all the goodwill you built up just died in my heart.

Let me turn to Emily for a second here, and then I'll give you a chance to make your case.

Yeah.

Emily, last time you were here, you had your friend Danny.

Yeah.

Danny seemed really nice.

What was that case that was involved?

That involved not a writing group, but a

reading series.

A reading series called.

Word Portland.

And that was Ghost Set a Tip Jar, right?

And it was about whether or not to charge for the reading series.

Yes.

And I said, your work is worth money and compensation.

You should charge for it.

Ultimately, yes.

And you won, didn't you?

I won live.

You won live, but not in life?

There was a recorded episode where Danny won and you overturned it

in my favor, in the live.

Well, I don't remember these things.

That's why I'm telling you.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

So now you're back again with Judd, who's very much a smarty pants.

A little intimidated, frankly.

Emily, tell me about this writing group that you and Judd are in.

So we

have been meeting meeting roughly monthly with some gaps, but roughly monthly for about seven years.

A group of about how many people?

Four to five.

It's been four consistently for the past couple years.

And are you writing novels, short stories?

It started out as novel writing, and we've drifted a little, so sometimes it's short stories, sometimes essays, but fiction, narrative.

Remember, for the most part.

Okay, right.

And

are you working on something now?

I am.

And does it involve a dream sequence?

The current project does not involve dreams.

I don't always write about dreams.

No, no, of course.

You have a wide repertoire.

But in some of your work you have

dreams, roots, all of the other things.

Fruit talk, dreams,

right, exactly.

But in some of your work, you do have dream sequences.

Yes.

And Judd, why do you hate Emily's dreams?

Fiction's job is to represent life, to take our reality and skew it somehow, to make it more more visible, more real, more to help us understand the human condition.

And so you have all the tools available to you.

You're saying humans don't dream.

Humans in real life do dream, but on the page, you don't need dreams to do something dreamlike or otherworldly.

Indeed, your whole project is to do something dreamlike or otherworldly.

But wait a minute.

If you have a character in a piece of fiction and that character has a dream and the character talks about the dream, maybe in this a first-person narration.

Oh, that's a dream.

Is that not real life?

The existence of dreams is is different than the portrayal of a dream sequence on the page.

What specifically?

I'll give you an example.

John,

your wife, who of course is a whole human being in her own right, is an English teacher.

That's true.

Has she ever taught the famous short story, The Public Life of Walter Mitty?

Yeah, yeah, so no dream segments.

No dreams, no dreams whatsoever.

No inner life at all.

That's right.

What specifically, what piece of writing of Emily's did you have an issue with?

Well, I mean, look, this is a writing group, right?

You have to speak it.

It is a writing group.

It is a writing group.

In judge defense, this is a long-standing argument.

So it's been a few years since the initial dream sequence pieces.

Oh, he didn't think that he had to do his homework before he came to class today?

Did I think about it?

Did you have a question?

I have a blanket argument.

Emily is a wonderful writer.

I take no objection to her work other than the inclusion of dream sequences, which are unnecessary and pointless.

But

you're not answering the question,

is there a specific dream sequence that Emily wrote, for example, that illustrates bad writing, I guess?

No.

There's not a specific dream sequence.

All right, all right.

It's just the existence of any dream sequence.

Would you say that you are in the majority in the writing group of people who feel like that?

There's a group of four.

We're divided right down the middle.

Right down the middle.

So today we're going to decide

whether to ban dreams from writing group forever.

Well, from all fiction, I think, written by anybody, anywhere.

That's my understanding.

I'm not sure that that's my remit,

but I'll do what I can.

I do have George R.

Martin's telephone number.

I don't know if there are any dreams.

And I mean, I'm sure not.

Okay.

Truly, your assurance is making me very nervous.

But I do take your point in the sense that, you know, I do dream, and all of my dreams are boring and dumb.

In fiction and in film, I presume you are against dream sequences in film as well for the same reason.

Yes.

Those dream sequences often have heavy portent and are highly symbolic of something that's going on in their life, whereas my dreams dreams are mostly like, yeah, I was walking down 7th Avenue and then I went home.

That's the end of my dream.

But, Jesse, you know what I'm talking about, right?

Dreams are rarely representational in the way they are in fiction and so forth.

Exactly, yeah.

I think often they're just sort of like transactional or just processing little things that you're worried about, whatever.

Yeah, like I'm going to have a terrible nightmare about you tonight, Judd.

Yeah.

Do not write about it.

Not even in my dream journal.

Honestly.

That is the appropriate place.

Honestly, what blessed relief it would be if all our nightmares tonight were about Judd.

Yes, it's true.

You're the villain Gotham needs.

No, I'm sorry, Judd.

I don't mean to pick on you.

Emily,

when this comes up in Writing Group,

it's divided.

Judd, when you read a dream sequence, do you offer critique on it or do you just skip over it?

Oh, no, I offer critique.

I think my point is that there's always some other way to do whatever you're trying to accomplish in the dream.

You have all the tools of fiction available to you.

Go on.

Well, again, reality on the page does not have to mirror our reality.

If you want to create something dreamlike or surreal or something.

The work itself is a dream.

Exactly.

That's what we're doing.

We're trying to create an illusion on the page.

So why needlessly bring in in this other illusory element?

Emily, have you ever had a dream within a dream?

Have you ever woken up or thought you woken up?

You've woken up and it's still a dream?

Yes.

Yeah, me too.

Pretty cool.

Was Nathan Lamont in your dream?

I don't know who that is, so maybe.

He's someone I knew in high school.

I think I was in high school and I woke up and Nathan Lamont was standing ominously in my bedroom.

I said, what are you doing here?

And then I woke up again and he wasn't there.

Now, that's that's a dream within a dream or a cover memory for alien abduction.

I don't know.

And would you.

I'm sorry.

I was just going to say, not great story material.

I wouldn't write it down.

I wouldn't write it down.

This is good.

This is good.

When you're a writer, you need thick skin.

You need to be able to take critiques, even on your own show.

All right.

Didn't like the Latham Lamont part.

Didn't work for Judd.

Nathan Lamont's going to be thrilled, but I guess I'm not just writing for him.

I'm just writing to describe the human condition.

Emily, how would you defend the use of dream sequence, not only in your work, but in fiction overall?

For one thing,

humans dream, so why not have that as an option for something to write about?

I don't think all dreams should be written about or that it's always interesting, but I think it should be on the table

of options that we could write about.

Yeah.

And this is Judge Sean Hodgman crowd, first crowd ever to be horny for writing options.

And second, I think if you're doing a good job at writing, you can use a dream as a tool to show something that's happening in the story.

It's not just a

way to show something weird happening, but it can add to the story in various ways.

Is there an example of that that you're thinking of?

Thanks for asking.

I thought of a few examples of

lively celebrities.

You did your homework and brought some examples to the story.

I did.

Thank you.

Appreciate that.

There's a story that a lot of people have heard of called the Christmas Carol.

Largely dreaming.

Okay, easy does it.

It is a Christmas Carol.

You're right.

We're about to have a librarian revolt in here.

A couple examples.

But we're the ones on stage, and we've all been shaken up by Judd.

So just

give us a little grace here.

A couple examples.

Judd's remarkable self-assurance.

Examples of movies that a lot of people have liked.

Inception.

That's a movie about dreams and dreams within dreams.

Nightmare on Elm Street?

That's a movie about dreams, nightmares in particular, yeah.

There's a comic book series called The Sandman.

Moving on.

Yeah.

That's right.

Inception

and the other one you mentioned are the only two I can think of as well.

Yeah, Judd.

What about if you're what about if your character and then there's a fucking river of blood shoots into the air out of that that bed in that movie.

That's nuts.

Nightmare on Elm Street.

Yeah.

That's right.

Holy cow.

It's awesome.

Do you think...

I don't even like that kind of thing.

Judd, do you feel that...

My daughter made me watch that.

It was bananas.

No wonder people like it.

It's wild.

It's a scary movie.

It's like medium scary, but you're just like, how do you think of all this different shit to do?

You're talking about Wes Craven or Freddy Krupp?

Wes Craven.

Yeah, no, he did like a list of of like, if I get to make a movie, I'm going to put this wild shit in it.

Then he was just like, well, if there's like a dream scissor guy, I could probably fit all this stuff into my movie.

That's a little.

Little something called storytelling.

Would you think culture would be better if there was no nightmare on Elm Street, Jeff?

Well, certainly not.

I think in all those examples, actually, it's fairly important that we believe the dream is actually the reality of the fictional world.

Okay.

So in a Christmas carol, like we need to kind of believe this is real.

He's actually being visited by these ghosts.

We can't dismiss it as just a dream.

That's part of the problem is dreams are so easy to dismiss.

If any of the experts out there on a Christmas carol

know, it never occurred to me that that was a dream that Scrooge was having.

Is that true?

Does he wake up?

Oh, he wakes up at the end, but isn't it plausible that?

He actually goes to bed and then sees a ghost and then wakes up.

Yeah, because that's when the ghosts come out.

Think how much less interesting the story would be if it was just a dream.

They're a lot like freaks in that sequence.

I was going to say:

the ghosts and the freaks come out at night.

We all know this.

What I like about ghosts is that they're really good lovers.

It's another thing from the freaks come out at night, John.

Yeah.

Chad, is there an example of a dream sequence in a movie or a book that you find particularly offensive?

All of them.

All right.

So no.

Okay, everybody relax.

Remember, we're all having a good time.

Judd is clearly used to just

traipsing his way through life on his B-grade Hugh Grant charm.

And he thinks he can do a Hugh Grant heel turn, like in that horror movie

Hugh Grant's in right now.

Oh, that one, yeah.

Is there to know what was in that?

You're getting real close to Oompa Loompa territory.

How do you feel about dream sequences in movies, Judd?

Do you find them to be a cheat?

Sometimes they feel that way, right?

I think it is always a kind of cheating.

Yeah.

Movies at least have the visual.

I am struck by the Big Lebowski's dream sequence.

I will admit that.

You are struck by it?

Yeah.

Oh,

turns out there's a guy who likes the Big Lebowski's.

All right.

All right.

I'm going to go a little easier.

Emily,

are you working on something right now that has a dream in it?

I'm not currently working on something with the dream in it, but I do have an example of a dream from

the first time this came up.

Would you be willing to share it with us?

Yes.

Wonderful.

Before we do that, I'd like to ask: if I were to rule in your favor, Judd, what would you have me rule

out to ban all dream sequences from all fiction

for all time?

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Emily, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule?

I think that any dream sequence and a piece of writing should be considered as something that should be read and taken in just as any other part of the writing and be it good or bad,

critiqued appropriately.

But I mean, writing groups are about critiques.

Has anything that Judd has said or other members of the Anti-Dream Coalition within your writing group made you rethink the way you use dreams in fiction?

Has it been helpful at all?

There is another member of the writing group who just

announces that she skims the dream sequences.

And Judd does read them, but I think generally agrees with her that they are less important.

And so just, and how does it feel when you learn that the writing group just skims over your dreams?

Well, it feels like maybe my dreams will be less well written because no one has given me critique on them.

Got it.

Well, we're going to hear from you,

and I will listen carefully.

And Judd, you will as well.

And Jesse, you will as well.

So this is from a novel, so I have to explain what happened first.

Great.

So this is from the beginning of chapter four, and the main character, Patrick, has been taking a mind-altering drug and erasing his memories.

And so

his dreams come into play because

of the memory erasing.

He's recovering memories in his.

He hasn't properly erased the memories, and some of them are reappearing in the dream.

Is there a science fiction element to this?

Yeah, the memory erasing drug.

The memory erasing drug is your own invention.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

It's something you dreamed up.

If you will.

I will.

And by the way, thank you for practicing willingness and sharing.

It's very vulnerable of you, and I appreciate it.

So I look forward to hearing from you.

So there are a few short dreams.

I'm just going to share the one where he realized that he's erased the memory of his mother.

Pretty much everyone's dream.

About a paragraph before this, he acknowledges that he dreamed about being on the beach.

So it was the beach again along the tideline.

Patrick was young, a boy in yellow swim trunks that he pulled all the way tight around his lean frame.

He stood just in the water back to the ocean, letting the waves pass over his feet, pushing at his calves, petering out a foot or two on, and then receding.

It's a game someone taught him, a mother.

The big waves almost knock him over.

When they recede, they pull a little bit of the beach back with them, muddying the water and burying his feet in a wave-made hole that gets a little deeper with every swell.

Or at least that's what's meant to happen.

He watches as each wave passes and leaves his feet still on top of the sand as solid as hardwood.

He looks up to see where the mother is and sees only a growing vastness that scratches at his brain and makes his skin crawl.

A blankness.

A painting painted over smooth before it's dried, no brushstrokes.

But he's only young.

He hasn't erased a memory yet.

How can these ones be gone?

He's never erased his mother.

That's her there.

And he walks up with a small shout.

And then it continues.

Do you mind if I reveal how it continues?

Basically, the bed like turns into like a puckered,

like the stuff goes, and then a freaking geyser of blood comes up out of the bed.

It's amazing.

It's wild.

True.

Family?

Sorry, that was terrible.

No, it was great.

I enjoyed that quite a bit.

Any critiques, Judd?

I love the device of this book, the memory-erasing drug.

I like recovering the memories, trying to hold on to that memory of the mother.

I'm for all of that.

I don't think it needs to be buried in a dream necessarily.

How would he recover the memory if not

going into his subconscious via dreaming?

Well, now I guess we're getting into sort of semantics about what a dream is, but a memory is not necessarily.

A recovered memory is not necessarily a member.

You're saying that if he was like gazing out the window of a bus and in an idol of some kind, that would be an okay way for him to sort of recover the idols.

Judge, you're not against idols, are you?

What about reveries?

Flights of fancy.

Never rolled my tongue that way in my life.

Let's say, for example, your dream came true and I had the power to ban dreaming and dream sequences from all narrative fiction.

What way would you suggest that your

writing group partner, Emily,

portray the recovery of these memories, if not a trip into the nightly unconscious.

What mechanism would you use, plot-wise or otherwise?

I actually don't think it has to be that different.

That's kind of my point.

I think some sort of fragmented mosaic-like structure where these memories are intruding on this guy as he's trying to live his life, and he doesn't know what they are or where they're coming from, these flashes of this other reality, could be quite effective.

Okay, I see what you mean.

Like, okay, gotcha.

Like, you see someone in the corner, oh, it's my mom, but I don't remember my mom, that kind of thing.

All right.

Fragmented mosaic.

Do you write experimental fiction?

Yes.

I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Emily, how are you feeling about your chances?

I'm feeling great.

Why is that?

I came in knowing that I was correct, and I continue to feel that way.

What's giving you that feeling?

The fact that this entire time the crowd's just been chanting, Emily!

Emily!

That's Alta.

Stop!

She's really getting into a Lord of the Flies thing here.

Anyway,

Judd,

or should I say the pig, why should we not kill you and spill your blood?

That's what they say in Lord of the Flies.

How are you feeling about your chances, Chud?

Great.

Now seems like a good time to stake out really absolute positions and just dig in.

Everyone's feeling really receptive to that.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when he returns.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge John Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the stage of the state theater.

What's going on with you?

Well, Jesse, I'm headed back to New York City, where I live in September.

And while it's bittersweet to leave Maine, I am looking forward to seeing perhaps you and all your wonderful faces when I host a special screening of the John Carpenter film They Live at the Nighthawk Prospect Park on September 18th.

That's right.

It's Rowdy Roddy Piper and Keith David having a fist fight in an alleyway for almost 40 minutes over whether one of them is going to put on magic glasses that allow them to see that our world is controlled by an oligarchical alien culture.

That's the best description I have of They Live that I can offer you, and it's pretty accurate.

If you want to learn more, and you should, come and see the movie.

I'm hosting hosting it.

I'll be introducing the screening and hanging around at the bar afterward.

Go get your tickets now at bit.ly slash obeyhodgman.

That's b-i-t.ly-y slash obeyhodgman.

Obey hodgman is all one word, all capital letters, to grab your seats now for a fun night in the early fall at the Nighthawk.

Jesse, what's going on with you?

John, you know, when I first saw They Live?

Yeah.

When?

I saw it in high school in Mr.

Crawford's English class.

Sure.

That's the same English class where Teresa Thorne, then Teresa Hosfeld, decided she had a crush on me.

And that led to us making out and then becoming boyfriend and girlfriend, which we still are to this day.

That's, and even in a legal sense, I believe you're married to one another.

That's correct.

And it's all thanks to Rowdy Roddy Piper.

Unfortunately, I was unable to attend your wedding, but I know that Rowdy Roddy Piper was there, at least in spirit, wearing special glasses.

I have so much new stuff in the Put This On shop.

You know, the autumn is right around the corner.

The autumn is time for

cozy clothes.

Cozy clothes.

Not only do we have a huge new, let's say, shipment of scarves.

I'm a big fan of a colorful rayon scarf from the 1940s, 1950s.

We have a bunch of those in the shop.

We also have a lot of vintage flight jackets.

So you can find those.

If you like a leather jacket, if you're looking for something to just wear all

autumn, all spring, all winter with a sweater underneath, hit the put this on shop.

Plus, a lot of various tweeds.

If you just want to knock around tweed sport coat, go to the put this on shop at putthisonshop.com.

That's in addition to all of the many beautiful ladies' clothing and jewelry that we've added to the shop.

And of course, all of the incredible vintage and antique decor items that we are famous for.

You can find all that online in the Put This On Shop at putthisonshop.com.

What could be more autumnal than a Cooperstown Oakland Oaks fitted baseball cap size seven?

That beautiful red cap with an oak leaf on it.

Oh, Jesse Thorne, I'm going to get it.

Where do I go?

Put thison shop.com.

Where do you go?

Same place.

Put thison shop.com.

Go do it.

I got this, we got this t-shirt

that I really like.

And it says, I can't be overdrawn.

I still have checks left.

That's it.

Put this on shop.com.

Find that there.

That one got a chuckle from Joel, even, right, Joel?

Let's get back to the stage at the state theater.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Once upon a time,

I left my work at the Coolidge Corner Theater in Brookline.

And I went to get my hair cut.

I went to go see the stylist that my mom saw.

His name was Renaud.

He was cutting my hair.

And I said, oh, damn, I think I left my wallet at the movie theater.

I called up the movie theater.

They said, we don't have it.

And then I realized it was in my back pocket.

And the hairdresser said, John,

you are a dreamer.

Keep dreaming.

True story, not a dream sequence.

Care to offer a critique, Judd?

There is part of me that wants your approval.

You come into my courtroom.

Dressing like a sexy creative writing professor from a movie or something.

Let's be honest, a B-level Hugh Grant is still like an A

level us.

It's true.

True.

I mean,

the way you're jauntily sitting on that stool,

I feel like you might be hosting a PBS woodworking program or something.

I mean, I know you're sitting on a stool right now, but in my mind's eye, you definitely are sitting in a chair backwards.

You got that obscure cultural reference correct.

You really cut me off at the knees there.

My own courtroom.

You were very brave, actually, to come here, I must say.

Because your position is unpopular

and

and it is basically indefensible.

And nor did you really defend it.

The supreme confidence of Judd comes in and says,

I think dream sequences are dumb.

And when I ask, you have any examples, you say, no.

They're just dumb.

And the thing that gets me, Judd, is you're not entirely wrong.

Because,

A Nightmare on Elm Street aside,

dream sequences, particularly in film, in my experience, I don't actually read a lot of them in fiction, but then again, I don't read a lot of books.

Surprise.

But they are often cheats.

They are often cheap feeling.

They feel

a little too on the nose.

They often feel and are deployed as trickery when you think something's actually happening to a character and then they go, oh, oh, I'm glad that didn't happen.

And then sometimes they do it again.

Wake up from that dream within a dream, within a dream, or whatever it is.

They can be a little mawkish.

They can be a little clichéd.

And as I, a point that I made, not you, I did,

they often in film and fiction have big, portent, and obvious meaning that our actual dreams don't tend to have, because our actual dreams are a little bit of a mishmash of memory and anxiety and desire or whatever it is and weird combinations and anyone who's ever woken up and tried to explain their dream to even their own mother that person turns to them and says nobody cares and they sound dumb the moment you describe them they can feel really really magical in that moment and when you wake up they're often very mundane and kind of don't connect and everything like that.

So when they have meaning within fiction in the way that they often do, and I'm talking about all narrative here, it often feels a little bit phony and fake.

And I appreciate that you're trying to stand up for a kind of honest fiction writing that is true.

And that's a good impulse to have.

And I would also say that, well,

you know, that any writer...

should take that as a warning before deploying the tool of dream sequence and make sure that it is really serving the story in the most honest way, and also a way that is honest to your own voice.

So, you were brave to take that position and to take the ridicule that went with it.

And you did so very good-naturedly, and I thank you for that.

But you are not as brave as Emily,

who actually read her work,

which takes enormous bravery.

Okay, okay.

Okay, you don't have the conch.

Mob Justice is the next

segment.

Makes very, very

three-part chants like that make me nervous.

But first of all, I just want to thank you for your bravery and I really liked the work that you shared.

And it did not feel cheap to me.

It did not, I mean, I don't know the whole context of the story, but it didn't have the hallmarks of a bad dream sequence.

It seemed like a perfectly reasonable dream sequence.

I mean, I hate to offer you this counsel, but, you know, when you're in a writer's group and people say stuff that really bites at your core, and especially if it's coming from an overconfident dude, you want to reject it.

Lord knows I do, God or whatever knows I do, but usually it's the criticism that bites the hardest that you kind of want to listen to a little bit before you reject it.

Now, I've offered you both a lot of praise.

And now, Judd, I'm going to destroy you.

Because

it's dialectic.

It can be both things.

It's not one or the other.

You deserve praise.

But I mean, I also caution you.

I mean, for reasons that should be very obvious,

one should not be out there in a writer's group or in society advocating the banning of a certain kind of expression.

And even

if we just keep it right within the realm of storytelling and creative writing, you know, the truth is that you've got to be able to use all of the tools, even tools that you have devised that no one else understands.

Yes, you need to learn the rules of storytelling before you can break them and bend them and so forth, but the rule can never be, you must never do this.

If, at best,

You should do it with caution or with care, whatever it is, but you always have to have all of the tools at your disposal because otherwise, we never get anything new.

We never get anything new.

And

we need new stuff in this world.

We need a lot of new viewpoints, and we can't be shutting down just even if the dream sequence is dumb, you got to be able to use it in order to express yourself.

And that's where I land on this.

So perhaps it's obvious you're not dreaming.

I find in Emily's favor.

Judd,

thank you for your good humor

and your winning demeanor.

Though perhaps you deserved a summary judgment in your favor, I find in Emily's favor all the same.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Emily, Judd, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

Thank you to Reddit user Turducken Everest for naming the case in this episode.

Make sure to follow us on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman.

We're on YouTube and TikTok at JudgeJohnHodgman Pod.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast was created by John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne.

This episode was recorded by Matthew Barnhart.

A.J.

McKeon is our podcast editor.

Daniel Spear is our video editor.

Our producers, Jennifer Marmor.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artists-owned shows, supported directly by you.