Shut Your Payhole

Speaker 1 Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
This week, Shut Your Payhole. Genevieve brings the case against her dad, Mike.
Mike won't let her pay for him when they go out.

Speaker 1 If Genevieve does manage to pay, Mike keeps track so he can restore the balance later. As the father, he believes he should always pay his own way.

Speaker 1 Genevieve wants to be able to pick up the tab without Mike adding the transaction to his mental ledger. Who's right, who's wrong? Only one can decide.

Speaker 1 Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Speaker 2 In extreme cases, when different people start shoving credit cards in my face, saying everything but, pick me, pick me, I am polite, but firm.

Speaker 2 I tell the contenders something akin to, oh, you're all so wonderful to want to pay for dinner. I wish I could pick all of you.

Speaker 2 And then I take a step back from the table saying, I cannot wait to see who wins. And then I walk away.
Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Speaker 1 Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God or whatever.

Speaker 2 I do. I do.

Speaker 1 Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he always makes Jennifer Marmor pick up the tab?

Speaker 2 I do.

Speaker 1 That's not true. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Speaker 2 Yes, thank you very much. Jesse Thorne and Genevieve and Mr.
Genevieve's dad, aka Mike, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Speaker 2 Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this internet courtroom?

Speaker 2 Let's start with dad.

Speaker 2 Mr. Mike, what is your guess? I would guess it was

Speaker 2 from Pawn Sacrifice,

Speaker 2 movie made in about 2000. Pawn Sacrifice, that a chess movie? Yes, it is.

Speaker 2 Pawn Sacrifice is on the board.

Speaker 4 Well, that sounded to me like a quote from the lyrics of the song, Everything is Exactly What It Seems, by the band Slowrunner off of their album, No Disassemble.

Speaker 2 Sounds exactly like lyrics from that song. Yes.

Speaker 2 Wow. Check and mate,

Speaker 2 dad.

Speaker 2 But advantage, Hodgman, because all guesses are wrong. I'm sorry.
There's no way that you might have guessed it. This came from

Speaker 2 an essay printed by KQED in San Francisco on their website back in 2008, I believe it was, excuse me, 2009, written by professional Bay Area waiter at the time and now a food writer, a guy named Michael Procopio, about the etiquette.

Speaker 2 of multiple people trying to pay for the chick and how annoying it is to servers when that happens. And then people and the two people or more than two people fight and won't, won't let it go.

Speaker 2 And then the server has to adjudicate. And no one hired them to be a judge.
Let me come in and I'll figure it out. That's what we're going to do today.

Speaker 2 I had not heard of Michael Procopio before discovering his writing. Why, just today,

Speaker 2 he currently has a sub stack, which is called Spatchcock, where he continues to write about food.

Speaker 2 And in fact, just a few days ago, he wrote a very moving essay about his own parent, or I should say, sadly, the loss of his mom, who died at the age of 82, not really being able to eat or drink anything in the later parts of her lives.

Speaker 2 And the meal that he and his family had to honor her afterward and was a very indulgent meal that began with one of her favorite foods when she was able to eat anything she wanted, which was an iceberg wedge salad, which I know you enjoy very much, Jesse, right?

Speaker 2 An iceberg wedge salad?

Speaker 1 I love an iceberg wedge salad.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's just a chunk of iceberg lettuce smothered usually in blue cheese dressing and often bacon bits.

Speaker 2 And the bacon bits reminded him of a phrase, a German phrase that he knew and I just learned today. And that German phrase is kummer specks.
Kummer specks.

Speaker 2 And Kummer Specks is a German word. Do either of you or any of you know what that means?

Speaker 4 I don't.

Speaker 2 It refers to the tendency to overeat during times of emotional crisis, or let's just say to indulge.

Speaker 2 But it literally translates, speaking of bacon bits, Kumar Spex literally translates to grief bacon, which is a concept that I'm very familiar with. So anyway, Michael Procopio, good essay

Speaker 2 and some insight into how servers feel when people fight for the check, which is what brings you here. You are the father-daughter fight for the check, and one of you is going to pay the bill forever.

Speaker 2 Sounds very ominous.

Speaker 2 Who brings this case to my court?

Speaker 4 I do, Your Honor.

Speaker 2 Genevieve. That's correct.
What is the nature of this? This is a class action case, it sounds like to me, because you are one of some number of siblings who have the same dispute with your dad, Mike.

Speaker 2 Is that correct?

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 4 There are many interested parties in how this case turns out.

Speaker 4 I am bringing my dad to

Speaker 4 your court

Speaker 4 because because

Speaker 2 he

Speaker 4 will not accept me paying for anything.

Speaker 4 Seems like whether it is even on the car right here, he said that for this trip, he would pay for the gas. He wanted to buy some Hodgman merch.

Speaker 4 He

Speaker 2 said that.

Speaker 2 Stay tuned for some updates on some holiday merch.

Speaker 2 A little later in this program, we're announcing some brand new Hodgman, Judge John Hodgman holiday merch. So be very excited about that.
Yes, Mike. Yeah,

Speaker 4 ready for Christmas.

Speaker 4 He also wanted to pay for lunch on the way back. And

Speaker 4 this is recurring through, I mean, pretty much anything that we do together that costs any money whatsoever.

Speaker 4 He will not allow. me to pay him without

Speaker 4 money then also coming out of his his wallet. So

Speaker 2 So it's not just meals. It's anything that you might, I mean, Mike, when Christmas comes around, I take it you celebrate Christmas? Yes.

Speaker 2 And your children give you gifts, do you then give them the retail value of those gifts in cash back?

Speaker 2 No, not Christmas,

Speaker 2 but I have to reciprocate with a gift of equal value. Oh, so you have to see the receipts.
Well,

Speaker 2 I celebrate Christmas after I've gotten my gifts. Then I know how much I have to give to each child.
You're saying that there's a special holiday after Christmas called Mike Smith's

Speaker 2 when restitution is made. Yes, I think it's the fair way to go about things.
And we're joining you both in North Carolina, where you are from, the Tarheel state. That's right.

Speaker 2 Specifically, well, I know you're recording in Mount Erie, but where all are you from in North Carolina, Mike?

Speaker 2 I'm from Wilkesboro. Genevieve is from Boone.

Speaker 4 I live in Boone, North Carolina.

Speaker 2 It's 30 miles apart. That's pretty close.
That's Northwestern-ish, right? Yes. Yes, yes.
West North Carolina. That's right.
Beautiful country. Yes.
Beautiful country there.

Speaker 2 I hope that we will be able to return there. Maybe play the Appalachian Theater in Boone, North Carolina.

Speaker 4 Yes, please do.

Speaker 4 We would love to have you.

Speaker 2 You guys listen to a little podcast about the states called Eplluribus Motto? That's just a plug. I have not heard that podcast.
No.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 But I will. It's another podcast in the Maximum Fun family of podcasts.

Speaker 1 Really good friend of mine hosts that.

Speaker 2 Well, Janet Barney, but I also do it. Yeah.
Yeah. That's true.

Speaker 2 And it says here, Genevieve, that you're a baker and Mike, you are a retired driver. Is that correct? That's correct.
Yes. That's right.
And full-time granddad now.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
And

Speaker 2 with

Speaker 2 part-time stints as a convenience store clerk. Oh, wonderful.

Speaker 2 And do you bring your grandchildren to work? It's been known to happen, yes.

Speaker 2 How many grandchildren do you have? One more?

Speaker 2 Seven.

Speaker 2 Whoa, that is more.

Speaker 2 And what is your grandfatherly name? What do they refer to you as? Pop-pop. Pop-pop.
That's what I called my granddad. Pop-pop.
Well, I called my maternal grandfather Pop-Pop.

Speaker 2 My paternal grandfather, I called grandfather.

Speaker 2 Don't know how that happened.

Speaker 2 But Pop Pop was married to Nan Nan or Nan.

Speaker 2 And my great-grandmother, who lived to 102, was known as Big Nan.

Speaker 1 John, you laugh and joke about having a grandfather that works part-time at a convenience store. That's basically a dream for a kid to go to their grandpa's work at the convenience store, right?

Speaker 1 Like just absolutely

Speaker 2 unlimited Slim Jameson now and later. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 That's true. Your grandchildren come in and

Speaker 2 you slip them some free Zagnut bars? Well, no, I teach them to

Speaker 2 work the register.

Speaker 2 I was going to say, we're not going to get you fired here, but maybe we are. Yeah, well, no, they already knew it.
And

Speaker 2 they just scratched their head about it. And Genevieve, you're a baker?

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 2 You're a professional baker or a home baker or a mix? A mix.

Speaker 4 I'm a home baker, but I have my home kitchen certified to bake out of and I sell at farmers markets.

Speaker 2 What is your favorite thing to bake? Breads or pastries? Pastries. Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Genevieve, you represent your siblings. How many siblings do you have?

Speaker 4 So I am one of six children.

Speaker 4 I am five of six.

Speaker 2 Where are you in the order?

Speaker 4 Number five. Yep.
I'm five out of six. Yep.
I'm the penultimate child.

Speaker 2 The penultimate child.

Speaker 2 Great title for your memoir. Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2 And obviously, you couldn't get the baby to represent the family because they're too busy being the baby. That's right.
They're getting everything.

Speaker 2 So, how did you get nominated to bring your dad to court?

Speaker 4 Well, we've all had this issue with my dad

Speaker 4 for,

Speaker 4 well, how old are you, Dad?

Speaker 2 How old are you?

Speaker 4 Yeah, for the entirety of my life.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 4 I'm the one who brought the case

Speaker 4 because of

Speaker 4 an inciting incident at a concert that we went to that I bought us tickets for. And at that show, I mentioned to my dad that if he had guests that he wanted to bring with us, he could have done so.

Speaker 4 And he completely rejected the idea of me paying for guests that he invited,

Speaker 4 thinking that would be just, I mean, if he won't even let me pay for him, then obviously he won't let me pay for an extra guest that is

Speaker 2 how many people does your dad normally roll in with when he's going to a concert? Well, normally

Speaker 4 normally just him, but it might be like his grandsons, my nephews

Speaker 4 could be possible attendees. And so I just mentioned that as a possibility.

Speaker 2 So you said to your dad, what was the concert?

Speaker 4 It was a Michael Flynn concert,

Speaker 4 the same band that I referenced in my guests earlier in the show.

Speaker 2 Got it.

Speaker 2 Say the name of that band again.

Speaker 4 The band's name is Slowrunner.

Speaker 4 And I have turned my dad into a fan of his music. And

Speaker 4 he agrees with me that artists work hard at their craft and they deserve to be paid.

Speaker 4 And yet, he

Speaker 4 won't allow me to bring more fans into the fold by bringing his other family members that might be with him along to the show on my dime.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 let me understand. You were like, if you want to bring some of your 23 nephews or whatever.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 You're like, if you want to bring any of the nephews, I'll pay for them. And your dad was like, no, they don't deserve music.
Correct. Or he was like, I will bring them, but I will pay for them.

Speaker 4 I'm not sure how the conversation ended. It just seemed that he felt like he couldn't invite them at all.
So I guess just not even bringing them.

Speaker 2 Reality.

Speaker 4 So let's see. I have in my notes here, I believe this concert was

Speaker 4 January 24th of this year.

Speaker 2 Oh, do you know what? That's the

Speaker 2 birthday of my human daughter.

Speaker 4 Oh.

Speaker 2 I didn't, I'm surprised you didn't invite her.

Speaker 4 She could have come. I would have been happy to pay his

Speaker 2 tickets. I would have been happy to pay for her.
Oh, I wouldn't allow it. I wouldn't allow it.

Speaker 4 His tickets are very reasonable. So I'm happy to bring along more friends.

Speaker 4 And his reluctance to have any money flow in his direction has been a problem across the board as we've talked about restaurants, theater, productions, anything like that.

Speaker 4 And it has always been annoying, but

Speaker 4 what

Speaker 4 pushed me over the edge to bring this to court was

Speaker 4 him not allowing those tickets to the concert because,

Speaker 4 in my mind, now that is an artist losing out on potential money for that first concert ticket.

Speaker 4 And then if that person becomes a fan, the merch that they might buy, the future concert tickets that they might buy, friends that they might then bring it, who knows what the end result is.

Speaker 4 And I think that

Speaker 4 the artist

Speaker 4 needs as

Speaker 4 much fan excitement as they can get.

Speaker 2 And so you're really not bringing this case against your dad on behalf of you and your siblings, but on the behalf of Slow Runner, the band.

Speaker 4 That is my original intention. That's correct.

Speaker 2 They lost out on some major nephew income. That's right.
You are seeking damage. That's right.

Speaker 1 They would be the E Street band at this point if it weren't for this butterfly flapping in China.

Speaker 2 That is correct.

Speaker 4 And as when I then told the family about bringing this case, a lot of them piled on saying, oh, yes, finally, someone's going to get dad for this because he's been doing

Speaker 4 the same thing in other arenas. So my main concern is artist pay and how his behavior is impacting the artist performances that we might go to.

Speaker 2 But it...

Speaker 4 that behavior does spill over into other areas and

Speaker 4 my siblings are

Speaker 4 concerned or would like to see change

Speaker 4 more broadly speaking.

Speaker 5 You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Speaker 5 Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org slash join. And you can join them by going to maximumfund.org slash join.

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Speaker 2 Mike, your daughter has accused you of not wanting to have any money flow in your direction. We've discussed this concert.

Speaker 2 Tell the story of Slowrunner and the invitation to the concert from your point of view.

Speaker 2 I will not invite anyone if I'm not prepared to pay.

Speaker 2 My grandsons are not. I was able to go to the concert and I bought the merch.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 by the way, there is an upcoming concert in early December. And both of my grandsons are invited, were invited by me without your input.
Yeah, Genevieve.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I am prepared to pay. Who paid for your ticket to the concert in January? Well, I don't see anything on my ledger, so I suppose that I paid.
Did I pay for gas down there? Yes, you did. Oh, I did.

Speaker 4 And you left a 20 in my car.

Speaker 2 No, I left a 20 in your car.

Speaker 2 Left a 20 in your car. What a nice dad, Genevieve.
Why are you taking your dad to task for being such a nice and respectful?

Speaker 2 That's what dads like to do if they're lucky enough to be able to be generous. Just

Speaker 2 let him pay his way and also freeze out your nephews and his grandsons as he wishes, apparently.

Speaker 1 And also get your car windows broken.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Right.

Speaker 4 In my 20s and even.

Speaker 2 You're making this argument. You're making this argument about Slowrunner losing out on income.

Speaker 2 And I'm just going to, I'm just throwing that out of court right now because I feel like you wouldn't be here if this were not something that you and your siblings also have a personal feeling about, not just a fan feeling about in terms of slow runners in government.

Speaker 2 Well, that is correct.

Speaker 4 That concert was what I call the inciting incident. And that is what

Speaker 4 led me to make the claim against him. And that is, that's what just tipped me over the edge.
But this has been problem behavior,

Speaker 4 as I said, my whole life.

Speaker 2 I don't know. Why is it a problem? Is it a problem for you, Mike?

Speaker 2 No. I mean, when you say you work at the convenience store, it's not a situation where you're secretly living in the convenience store because you can't afford to live anywhere else.

Speaker 2 No, no.

Speaker 2 I have a nice home and I live alone. And

Speaker 2 my grandson, one of my grandsons, is a frequent guest there. As long as he pays his own way, I say.

Speaker 2 Cleans up after himself would be better. Okay.

Speaker 2 19 years old.

Speaker 2 You would pay for him because he's your grandson. That's part of the job of being a pop-pop.

Speaker 2 I have an obligation as

Speaker 2 the father and as the grandfather. And

Speaker 2 my

Speaker 2 daughter's insisting on

Speaker 2 paying for me is a way. It's a secret power struggle that she's into.

Speaker 2 She wants me to owe her something.

Speaker 2 And I'm not not going to owe.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. I'm not going to pay her.
But that's not correct.

Speaker 2 Well, she may not know that.

Speaker 2 Mike, I apologize. I interrupted you.

Speaker 2 You said your daughter wants me to owe her something. And then you started to say, I'm not going to owe.
Please finish that sentence.

Speaker 2 I am not going to have an obligation, legal, social, moral, to anyone.

Speaker 2 I am going to pay my own way. And if I invite guests, I will offer to pay their way

Speaker 2 and if

Speaker 2 we go out for a meal i don't always win but i usually can pick up the check

Speaker 2 and uh and it's my status as the head of the family pater familias yes this is like

Speaker 1 This is like a scene George R.R. Martin cut from the Game of Thrones books.

Speaker 2 The stakes are so high here.

Speaker 1 Protect Mike's honor.

Speaker 4 Jesse, you just used one of my dad's favorite words. I just want you to know that.
Honor is very big with him.

Speaker 2 Oh, sure. I can imagine.
I mean, I would, with that in mind, like

Speaker 2 when you pay for dinner or when you pay for gas or when you leave a 20 behind in the car,

Speaker 2 how does that make you feel? Father Mike pop-up. Like I have performed my duty.
And when you lose at a game of who pays pays the dinner check, how does that make you feel?

Speaker 2 Like I have to enter it on my ledger.

Speaker 2 Is this a literal ledger or just a black mark in your soul? I can generally, it's a black mark in my soul, but when I need to write it out, it's there.

Speaker 2 I guess it would be a red mark on your soul because

Speaker 2 debt.

Speaker 2 That's right. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And does it weigh on you afterwards, you think about it? Generally, the ledger has two columns.

Speaker 2 There's what is right for me to pay. I have limited means.
So then there is reality of what I can pay.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the balance is generosity that they have, my children have for me.

Speaker 2 And I graciously accept because I've done all that I can. which is all that duty requires.

Speaker 2 You're retired, and you mentioned that you live in a nice home, but I presume that you have a fixed income or you have to be careful about your budgeting as we all do these days, right?

Speaker 2 Even more careful right now. Yes.
Right. And

Speaker 2 how many of the siblings live in North Carolina, Genevieve? That would be

Speaker 2 four of us.

Speaker 2 And then where's the other one?

Speaker 4 One is in Germany. One is in California.

Speaker 2 They're eating that grief bacon in Germany.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I was embarrassed not to know that word for that reason.

Speaker 2 I don't know that you should know. Me too.

Speaker 2 It's wonderful, Mike, that so, you know, the majority, it would seem of your children, and I presume grandchildren. You know, it's a lot of, a lot of

Speaker 2 parents

Speaker 2 pay for their children for various things in order to bribe them to spend time with them.

Speaker 2 Do you worry that if you're not carrying your weight and or treating them financially, you know, to a little to, you know, dropping to 20 in the car, car that your penultimate child, Genevieve, will stop showing up?

Speaker 2 Well, I'm a hoarder. Okay.

Speaker 2 That's understandable. I hoard things.
I don't like to throw things away, even if it's old. I'm old.

Speaker 2 And I do know that the time is coming when I will be pushed aside, and I don't wish to be pushed aside. Pushed aside by your children or by the grim hand of death? Sorry to be blunt.

Speaker 2 I'm just trying to understand. By my children uh death has nothing to do with it i want them coming to visit my grave

Speaker 2 well just you know make sure that there's a stack of 20s on top i bet you they'll come

Speaker 2 genevieve when your dad says he's a hoarder i i'm sure he doesn't mean that in a clinical sense like there's not a problem in his house is there

Speaker 4 I mean, I think the,

Speaker 4 I think some of my siblings would like to see certain things cleared up.

Speaker 2 But it's not like the master bedroom is full floor to ceiling with rotting pumpkins or anything. No, no.
Okay. And Genevieve, do you provide a grandchild to pop up or

Speaker 2 are you a child-free person?

Speaker 4 I do not have children.

Speaker 4 So I get to be a fun aunt.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's a heck of a lot of fun.

Speaker 4 It's a good position to be in.

Speaker 2 When your dad says that he feels like if you pay for him, he'll be in debt. How does that make you feel?

Speaker 2 Sad

Speaker 4 because

Speaker 4 I would like him to just be able to receive

Speaker 4 something without

Speaker 4 having that burden of debt foisted upon his psyche.

Speaker 2 Well, debt is an anxious state. That's not something that you want for your dad.
Correct. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But you know, when I talk about parents bribing their adult children to spend time with them by paying for meals or whatever it might be, I mean, that's something I know very well.

Speaker 2 One thing I know less well is the feeling that adult children have for their mom and dad, a feeling that they're in debt to them and maybe they should pay for me for once.

Speaker 2 Maybe that will come in time. But Mike, I mean, look, I love, I love both of my adult children and they're very generous people.

Speaker 2 I don't mean to throw them under the bus the way you iced out your grandchildren from that concert. But,

Speaker 2 you know, is there another way of looking at it, Mike, perhaps that Genevieve feels that she loves you and owes you a lot for her upbringing and I presume kindness and love, and that it might bring her pleasure to treat you for once?

Speaker 2 I feel that bringing Genevieve and her siblings face to face with the fact that there is a business side to every relationship

Speaker 2 is the

Speaker 2 wonderful gift I can give her, despite whatever sadness

Speaker 2 it might bring.

Speaker 2 There's a business side to every relationship. Do you want to tell me a little bit more about that philosophy?

Speaker 2 Would you mind telling me where I can buy some

Speaker 2 Judge John Hodgman merch, please? I don't mind at all, Jesse.

Speaker 2 What's the URL for

Speaker 2 the store that's www.maxfunstore.com and i might i might i might also say there's another url that i enjoy bit.ly slash dicktown an animated a cartoon for adults and young adults uh it's pg13 set in north carolina itself want to become a member of maximum fun go to maximum fun.org slash join we'll like you better

Speaker 2 i think I think we've settled a lot of debts right there, Mike. Thank you very much for letting us get the plugs out.

Speaker 2 Certainly will.

Speaker 2 Genevieve, have you ever paid for? I mean, you paid for these concert tickets for your dad, right? Yes? That's correct.

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 4 I am the one who purchased the tickets, but I don't know that I would say that I paid for them because I believe my father reimbursed me in the end. So

Speaker 4 I think I would still consider that he bought his own ticket and then some,

Speaker 4 but I was the one who initially purchased and put down the funds for getting those tickets initially.

Speaker 2 Has there ever been a time when you've paid for something and actually gotten away with it?

Speaker 4 Yes. We went also earlier this year to

Speaker 2 a

Speaker 4 I guess it wasn't a performance. I'm not sure what to call it.
It was an event that the Wilkes Playmakers were having. My dad lives very close to the theater that the

Speaker 4 county theater group performs at.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 we went to, they had like a Renaissance evening

Speaker 4 that we went to earlier this year. And I did pay for those tickets.
However, the only way that I successfully paid for those was by fibbing just a little bit.

Speaker 4 When my dad tried to reimburse me, I told him that a mysterious benefactor had already taken care of it,

Speaker 4 which he took to mean my older sister. And I let him believe that.

Speaker 4 But in fact, the mysterious benefactor was me.

Speaker 2 Is this the first time you're hearing of this deception, Mike? Yes, it is.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 Let the record show that if you're watching on our YouTube channel at judgejohnashu Pod, there's a plug. Mike is very clearly and visibly shook at this moment to understand that

Speaker 2 the sisters got together to deceive. Like, I'm mysterious.
Why didn't you just tell him, oh, no, the tickets were free? Don't worry about it. I want him in a raffle.

Speaker 4 Oh, there's just he, he wouldn't have believed that tickets were free and he would have been able to very easily check on that.

Speaker 4 I think he'd, I wouldn't have put it past him to when we'd walked through the door into our tickets for him to have asked the ticket taker what what tickets cost so that he could have gotten that information i

Speaker 4 i didn't want to lie in a way that would be found out so easily

Speaker 2 i'm already deeply in debt to your older sister by the way yeah

Speaker 2 in in financial debt or sort of moral ethical debt uh moral ethical debt

Speaker 2 what what do you owe uh genevieve can you say the name of your older sister sister? Yes, Teresa.

Speaker 2 Teresa is the mysterious benefactor.

Speaker 4 Yes, our mysterious benefactor.

Speaker 4 And I told her

Speaker 4 to accept this

Speaker 4 little twisting of the truth. She accepted it.
And I knew that my dad would accept that because

Speaker 4 he had already run up a debt with my sister. So I knew that he could just kind of let that go.
And that would be a way I could kind of slip in an event that I paid for.

Speaker 2 Mike, how much do you owe mysterious Teresa in moral money? Two or three years' rent.

Speaker 2 Oh, because you lived with her for a time? No, because she

Speaker 2 has and her husband have bought a house in North Wilkesboro where I reside.

Speaker 2 I see.

Speaker 2 You reside in the house. That is correct, and I'm paying no rent.
Oh, yeah. And she complains when I try to pay some upkeep.
Okay, I get it then. That is a fair amount of

Speaker 2 moral money. But going back to you, Genevieve,

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm sure Teresa, mysterious Teresa, and her partner are very happy to have you living in a comfortable home nearby.

Speaker 2 But I can understand why you might feel a little bit of, well, debt, indebtedness. Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Genevieve, have you bought a house for your dad yet or what?

Speaker 4 I've not got quite that far in my financial journey.

Speaker 2 Why don't you build him a garden shed out of banana bread? Just a thought.

Speaker 4 I'll look into that. Thank you for the suggestion.

Speaker 2 Just a thought. I did pay for the tool shed on the property.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 Mike, you don't mind my saying, drop in the bucket, okay?

Speaker 2 True, true. Yeah.
You're never, yeah. You're going to be clawing your way out of this one, this hole for a long time.

Speaker 2 Sorry.

Speaker 2 I'm winding you up a little bit. I apologize.
Well, thank you. I mean, obviously, neither of you want to be a hardship to the other.

Speaker 2 Do you feel, Mike, and maybe you won't want to comment on this as a dad, but like, do you feel, are you worried that you are causing your own kids to

Speaker 2 overextend themselves financially?

Speaker 2 Yes, with an explanation. The explanation is I I don't take anything for granted.
Her older sister, all of my children are doing quite well. Great.

Speaker 2 But I don't believe that's the picture for tomorrow necessarily. I mean, I hope I try to be optimistic.
Yeah, well, we're all trying. Yes, but

Speaker 2 I don't take anything for granted. But on the other hand, when you got away with foisting the dead off to Mysterious Teresa, how did you feel?

Speaker 4 Glad to

Speaker 2 have that settled and to have

Speaker 4 moved forward in a way that would not result with him trying to leave a 20 in my car at the end of the night

Speaker 4 and put him out any, but also a bit sad that I

Speaker 4 had to

Speaker 4 bend the truth in order to do so.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 also wondering how long my older sister might let me use her as the scapegoat for future outings.

Speaker 2 Several other siblings. You can burn through all of them slowly over several years.

Speaker 4 But my dad will only really accept

Speaker 4 that from the oldest sister because of already being maybe so far in the red. So he wouldn't necessarily accept, I don't think, if I told him.

Speaker 2 I'll do kickbacks for the older sister. Okay.
What I can afford.

Speaker 4 Yes, I do know that.

Speaker 2 So, why do you feel like it's difficult to accept generosity from Genevieve specifically? Since she's sitting right there, and this is probably the most uncomfortable question I could ask

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 she

Speaker 2 needs to understand that the sadness that she feels for not being able to

Speaker 2 give to me is the sadness of life, it's what life is.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 Wow. I mean, don't think my wow is disbelief.
Like, that's,

Speaker 2 that's, there's something there that I really need to take in and process. I might be thinking.
I can loan you my copy of Philosophy for Don't. No, no, no, no.
I don't want to be in debt to you, Mike.

Speaker 2 Don't loan me anything.

Speaker 2 Genevieve, it says here that if I were to rule in your favor, you would like me to rule that your father might quote get over it, unquote, and

Speaker 2 think that's ever going to happen. And let you invite whoever you want to invite to the upcoming Slowrunner concert and pay for it.
Is that right? Is that what you would like me to rule?

Speaker 2 Tell your dad, get over it.

Speaker 4 So, I would like for him to not

Speaker 4 be allowed to pay any

Speaker 4 through any means

Speaker 4 uh for tickets to um experiences that I invite him to that he accepts but don't you think your dad enjoys being sneaky in the payback department

Speaker 2 well

Speaker 2 let me ask you Mike when you hid that $20 bill in her car where'd you hide it just on the passenger seat I think

Speaker 2 where it would be easily seen yeah

Speaker 2 so it wasn't hidden exactly. It was hidden in plain sight.

Speaker 2 It's like I dropped it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It's one of my favorites.
I had to drop a 20.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I like that. I like that game a lot, Mike.
I was just at the bell house last night

Speaker 2 performing with the Thrilling Adventure Hour, another plug. And the bartender.

Speaker 2 gave me a drink for free. And I said, oh, well, thank you very much.
By the way, I found this money on the ground. You know who it belongs to.

Speaker 1 At least you didn't leave it in his car.

Speaker 1 The leaving it in the car part is as a lifetime urban resident, the idea of leaving a 20 in a car is so upsetting to me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm sorry, Jesse. This is not the Bay Area or Los Angeles.
This is North Carolina.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, I gave her a laptop.

Speaker 1 I left it on the driver's seat.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I was down a catalytic converter, so I put it on the dashboard.

Speaker 2 I bought her a diamond brooch, and I left it on the rear left tire next to the car keys.

Speaker 2 Don't drive away.

Speaker 2 You're a man after my own heart.

Speaker 2 I know you love buying diamond brooches.

Speaker 2 In a week or two.

Speaker 2 I love that. I love this.
I mean, look, your dad just wants to be generous. He's a,

Speaker 2 it's, you know, I know you're both being coy about your age. He's a, he's a, he's a vibrant, retired gentleman who keeps a ledger.

Speaker 2 How do you expect me to force this this gentleman to change, Genevieve?

Speaker 4 Well, that through sheer willpower?

Speaker 2 My hope is that

Speaker 4 a ruling from your court, because my dad does believe in honor

Speaker 4 and he did agree to abide by your ruling. I

Speaker 4 I think that if you were to rule that he must accept

Speaker 4 me paying for some of these outings, that he would abide by that.

Speaker 2 So, this is like a trick. You've tricked your, he's sneaking money into your car, and you're tricking him into

Speaker 2 a fake oath on a dumb podcast that you know out of a sheer sense of honor, he will take seriously, even though it's it's all a joke.

Speaker 4 i i learned from the best

Speaker 2 how do you do you feel proud of your sneaky daughter your pen your sneaky penultimate uh i i have a certain admiration for that response yes that all that all depends on if i rule in her favor mike i could still rule in your favor yes and uh i would suppose of course i would think that was the correct ruling and if i were to rule in your favor it would be to tell genevieve to get over it it and just let you do whatever you're going to do yes and

Speaker 2 reality

Speaker 2 my continuing

Speaker 2 uh age and frailty and uh

Speaker 2 will uh make this sentence correct soon enough

Speaker 2 sooner than i would like you want Genevieve and your and your other kids to just leave you alone and let you pay and balance your books.

Speaker 2 That is correct. And

Speaker 2 they're missing one part

Speaker 2 of this whole thing. Business is a part of every relationship, and so is the con.
I'm running a con here. Wow.

Speaker 2 I'm running a con because when the inevitable begins to take away my abilities to go to the gym and to take care of myself and I need to be shuffled off to

Speaker 2 an assisted living facility.

Speaker 2 Right. They will feel obligated.

Speaker 2 And so I am running a con here.

Speaker 2 But there's also honor,

Speaker 2 there's con,

Speaker 2 and there's

Speaker 2 business.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's honor, con, and business. Yes.

Speaker 2 I understand.

Speaker 2 Very specifically, Genevieve. We have this upcoming show,

Speaker 2 the Slowrunners Show.

Speaker 2 If I were to rule in your favor, what would you propose? You pay for the tickets?

Speaker 4 Well, so I actually was really surprised to hear my dad bring up this show as an example because I think it's the worst example he could have brought up. Because the Slowrunner show that's happening,

Speaker 4 I specifically am paying for already.

Speaker 2 I'm

Speaker 4 bringing this artist in for a birthday party that I have privately paid for as like a private.

Speaker 2 party. Yeah.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 there's no tickets involved for people to possibly buy in that case. And it's a party that I am paying for.

Speaker 4 I guess it's a sneaky way to get my dad to a show that he really can't even possibly pay for.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 you've got Slowrunner coming to your house for your birthday?

Speaker 4 Well, my house is not big enough for the party that I wanted to, so we rented a private space. But yes, I do have Michael Flynn of Slowrunner coming to Boone for a private show for my birthday.

Speaker 2 I'm turning

Speaker 4 because I'm turning 40 this year, so kind of doing a bigger party than I normally would.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 welcome to the race to the grave.

Speaker 2 Pop off and Jesse and I are already enjoying. Thank you.

Speaker 2 Do you think that

Speaker 2 a financial donation to Michael Flynn slash Slowrunner,

Speaker 2 Mike, would be sufficient clearing of the books for you at this birthday party?

Speaker 2 I will contribute anything that's left over after buying my Judge John Hodgman merch.

Speaker 2 Well, I think I've heard everything I need to make my decision.

Speaker 2 Looks like those plugs paid off. I'm going to go into my chambers and I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Speaker 1 Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Speaker 1 Genevieve, how are you feeling about your chances right now?

Speaker 4 Pretty nervous. I thought that I had a slam dunk case, and

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 4 think that my dad actually maybe prepared

Speaker 4 more strongly than I anticipated. And I didn't maybe get to make some of the points that

Speaker 4 I had

Speaker 4 against him. So I'm a bit nervous that he's going to be allowed to continue in his ways.

Speaker 1 Mike, how are you feeling about your your chances?

Speaker 2 I was surprised at

Speaker 2 how

Speaker 2 strong my daughter's accusations were.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I think that

Speaker 2 last one

Speaker 2 when I invited your nephews,

Speaker 2 I thought that I was going to be paying, but I didn't know.

Speaker 2 And there is one concert. that Slowrunner is giving where if the invitations are accepted, I will be paying for

Speaker 2 Asher.

Speaker 4 But there's no tickets to buy.

Speaker 2 But no, there are going two performances. But I'm paying for them both.
And you're paying for them both. Correct.
Oh, no.

Speaker 2 Okay. It's happening in the time.

Speaker 2 As for continuance and be able to prepare.

Speaker 1 Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when he comes back with his verdict.

Speaker 6 Wonderful is a podcast where we talk about things we like.

Speaker 6 That's hard to sell in a promo like this, so we've enlisted the help of piano rock superstar Billy Joel to tell you about some of the topics we've covered. Take it away, real Billy Joel.

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Speaker 7 Keep me up, eat time capsules, Wayne's World Cheese Bulls, Wallace, Stevens, Donkey Gone, Fun Size, Alman.

Speaker 7 They didn't start the podcast, except that's not true. They didn't want to.

Speaker 7 They didn't start the podcast.

Speaker 7 No, they actually did. That was in fact a fib.

Speaker 6 Listen to Wonderful Every Wednesday on maximumfun.org or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks, Real Billy Joel.

Speaker 8 No problem, Griffin.

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Speaker 9 With more continuity than comic books?

Speaker 8 And more reality than reality television?

Speaker 8 It's professional wrestling.

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Speaker 9 Listen to Tites and Fights every Saturday on maximum fun.

Speaker 1 Judge Hodgman, we have brand new holiday merch.

Speaker 2 That's right. We promised it to Mike and Genevieve, and we're promising it to you now.
Available for you in the Max Fun store.

Speaker 2 We have brand new holiday merch, starting with a scented candle, right, Jesse?

Speaker 1 Oh, I love this scented candle. The scent of this candle, pure justice smell.

Speaker 2 That's what it says on the Aaron Draplin-designed, beautiful label. It's like a fresh cotton scent.
It's like a fresh scented candle,

Speaker 2 and it comes in a glass and it's 100% soy wax that has been fairly dispensed in this year, 2025, for the season. And you can get it right now, as well as our brand new corduroy caps.

Speaker 2 Now, corduroy, that's the court of the king. Tell us about these caps, Jesse.

Speaker 1 John, for years and years and years, over 75 years, I've been opening this program by asserting that only one can say who is right and who is wrong that's right but with our new caps you can decide yes that's right one of our new caps says right and one of our new caps says wrong so whether you're buying one for yourself or as a gift for someone else you can really make a point about where you or they stand who's wearing the right hat who's wearing the wrong hat only you can decide by uh going to the max fun store and as well, we have Cozy Goth merch.

Speaker 2 People have been asking about this for a long time.

Speaker 2 We have a matching sweatpant, sweatshirt, at leisure loungewear featuring a brand new and very adorable cozy goth illustration of a cozy goth couple getting cozy for the season created for us expressly by the wonderful Tom DJ of Boss Man Graphics.

Speaker 2 It's an oversized crew neck and sweatpants set only available at the Maximum Maximum Fun Store. What's the URL to get there, Jesse?

Speaker 1 That's maxfunstore.com. MaxFunStore.com for our new cozy goth sweatsets, those really cool right and wrong corduroy caps, and our brand new holiday candle featuring Pure Justice Smell.

Speaker 1 Also, I got a big show coming up in New York City. John's going to be there.
He won't be on stage, but he's going to be there November 15th at the People's Improv Theater.

Speaker 1 I will be joined by Jad Abamrod, H. John Benjamin, Tony Shaloub, Kristen Anderson Lopez, and Bobby Lopez and Josh Gondelman.
It is a 25th anniversary show for Bullseye. So excited to be doing that.

Speaker 1 Hopefully there are still a few tickets left for you, but they are going fast. So go to maximumfund.org slash events to get those tickets.

Speaker 1 And make sure that you're subscribed to Bullseye with Jesse Thorne for all the great interviews that I will conduct on that stage.

Speaker 2 Happy anniversary, Bullseye. We love love you.

Speaker 1 Thank you, buddy. Let's get back to the case.

Speaker 1 Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Speaker 2 You may be seated. Before I render my judgment, there was one question that I realized that I forgot to ask Genevieve.

Speaker 2 You heard your father explain that

Speaker 2 part of the reason that he wants to continue to be financially generous to all of his kids and grandkids is that he anticipates a time

Speaker 2 when later he's going to need some more and fairly expense, presumably expensive or more expensive, you know, assistance as he gets older and is less independent.

Speaker 2 And I think he's concerned that when that time comes,

Speaker 2 maybe he'll be out of money because he spent it all on

Speaker 2 slow runner concerts or something. And I guess my question to you is, can you assure your dad, do you think, that

Speaker 2 if and when he needs

Speaker 2 more help,

Speaker 2 more generosity, more, well, not generosity, but more help financially and otherwise,

Speaker 2 as he gets older, are you going to freeze him out or are you going to be there for him?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 4 it's hard to.

Speaker 2 I don't think you should really be going um well at this point. I mean, it doesn't matter.
You could say, yes, it's going to be fine. And even if you're lying, that's okay.

Speaker 4 Yes, it's going to be fine.

Speaker 2 Doesn't matter. I'm not going to leave you anyway.

Speaker 2 Well, I don't blame you, Mike.

Speaker 4 No,

Speaker 4 my hesitation is not in trying to decide my answer.

Speaker 4 It is merely,

Speaker 4 I guess, being hit with the realities of parents getting older and thinking that through. And it is something that I've discussed in my household with my husband.

Speaker 4 I know that some of my other siblings have already been

Speaker 4 somewhat involved in care for older parents. And I'll just say that while I don't have this to offer currently and the real estate market in Boone is quite tough when I am looking for

Speaker 4 the next house to buy that could have a bit more room in it,

Speaker 4 it is the plan to have a second living space for

Speaker 4 any of our parents that might need that, should that be a situation

Speaker 4 that would work out for

Speaker 2 my dad or other older people in our lives. Other older people.

Speaker 2 You're not going to cut them loose just because you bought them concert tickets at one point.

Speaker 4 Absolutely not.

Speaker 2 You know where I hear they have free universal health care is in Germany.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 2 It's interesting. It's a developed country and it's a wealthy country that for some reason they provide for universal health care.
I don't know what you're talking about. My son loves it there.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, maybe they don't understand that there's a business side to every that all human relationships are financial and transactional.
That was maybe the most controversial thing.

Speaker 2 Perhaps that it's, it sounded more controversial, though, Mike, than I think that it is, because I do think that you're on to something there.

Speaker 2 and it's something that i've observed in this court as well and now i'm segueing into the verdict i suppose but you know like i've said on the podcast before that um you know you get a lot of advice often from parents that it doesn't hurt to ask you know like you know it doesn't hurt to ask go ahead and ask that friend for a favor or go ahead and ask that former teacher for a recommendation or go ahead and ask if you can go to that party for free or whatever it is.

Speaker 2 Like parents

Speaker 2 normally are often saying to their kids, it doesn't hurt to ask. Whereas, Mike, I think you know what I have come to understand, which is it always hurts to ask.
That

Speaker 2 when you are asking of

Speaker 2 a relationship, you are, in a sense, spending down

Speaker 2 a little bit of goodwill, a little bit of investment of goodwill. And

Speaker 2 some asks are necessary. Sometimes you have to ask.

Speaker 2 for financial help or support in certain ways. And sometimes you got to do it.
And oftentimes, people will be very happy to provide it.

Speaker 2 But it's true that you want to be cognizant, right, of keeping the books balanced. You don't want to be a person who accepts favors and accepts favors and accepts favors and never offers them back.

Speaker 2 Favors in terms of money, of course, but also in terms of time and consideration. You want to, I mean, everyone should to some degree perhaps keep a ledger and perhaps not one that is as

Speaker 2 mulled over internally as Mike's is, but you know,

Speaker 2 keep things more or less in balance so that you, you know, you can accept help and

Speaker 2 generosity from people in your life and know that you're also in a position to return it. Being generous is,

Speaker 2 you know, I wrote in

Speaker 2 my penultimate book so far, Vacation Land, that's a plug,

Speaker 2 That, you know,

Speaker 2 because I essentially won the lottery of going on television and making money that I never intended to make as a freelance writer, what I realized was that this freed me from a lot of anxiety.

Speaker 2 And so much of what is so insidious about the system in which we live.

Speaker 2 is the perpetual anxiety that we feel because of financial pressure, not least because we have to think of and pay for health care.

Speaker 2 But having money that allows you to support yourself and having a little bit more

Speaker 2 than you perhaps need is such a great,

Speaker 2 such an amazing feeling because it allows you to be generous. And that's such a good feeling that everyone honestly should be able to have.
People should have a little bit more

Speaker 2 than just getting by so that they can be generous.

Speaker 2 to other folks and people. It's a wonderful feeling.

Speaker 2 And to some degree,

Speaker 2 I appreciate the feeling that

Speaker 2 you have, Mike, and the pride and honor that you take in being able to provide for your kids. That's a very good feeling, but you're denying them the reciprocal feeling of being generous with you,

Speaker 2 with money, perhaps, or in other ways. You know,

Speaker 2 oftentimes the greatest generosity. is being generous in your acceptance of other people's generosity.
You see what I mean? It's a real paradox there.

Speaker 2 You may need to go up to your attic and find paradoxes for dummies,

Speaker 2 you know, because that's part of graciousness, right? To be able to accept as well as to provide. That is, I think that while you are busy, very busy indeed, keeping your ledger balanced.

Speaker 2 You're not appreciating that everyone's got their own ledgers and

Speaker 2 some of your children would like to give back to you and will continue to give back to you

Speaker 2 when it's even more necessary. But even now, they want to give back to you.
And it's not that they're spending down whatever savings they might have for your later needs.

Speaker 2 They want to give back to you now financially and in other gestures that are meaningful to them. Now, that's not Genevieve.
Genevieve just wants to give all of her money to this slow runner dude.

Speaker 2 I don't get it.

Speaker 2 I honestly don't get it.

Speaker 2 Insofar, insofar Insofar as I feel

Speaker 2 having an unbalanced ledger is going to weigh on you,

Speaker 2 Mike,

Speaker 2 emotionally a little bit more than I think it weighs on your kids. I am going to essentially advise Genevieve: do not expect major changes in Mike's worldview

Speaker 2 in terms of paying. It gives him pleasure

Speaker 2 and it satisfies a sense of pride to be able to provide for his kids. That's how I feel, too, about our kids, insofar as we are able to help them.

Speaker 2 But I also advise you, Mike, to be gracious in appreciating that it gives them pleasure too,

Speaker 2 to help you, right? There are books that are balanced that are not purely financial. And sometimes you need to do a little bit of a different kind of math to keep the balance even.

Speaker 2 But that said, Genevieve, I am going to advise you that I do not expect, nor should you, that not even a ruling from the esteemed fake judge John Hodgman

Speaker 2 would ease the psychic burden of feeling out of feeling in debt that Mike feels. And I think that Mike needs to work through that on his own and takes pleasure in sneaking money into your car.

Speaker 2 And maybe he'll even, you know, what I would perhaps order is that

Speaker 2 instead of sneaking money into your car

Speaker 2 for your birthday, to balance the debt and the ledger that is in Genevieve's heart, Mike, that you let Genevieve pay for this birthday party for herself.

Speaker 2 You let her

Speaker 2 give all of the money that she can to this stranger.

Speaker 2 And that if you want to give her a gift and be generous,

Speaker 2 not that you've necessarily threatened to come in and take over the payment of the rental hall or wherever this is happening, but that instead you go and you enjoy it and you let her pay.

Speaker 2 And if you're going to sneak any money in, you're going to sneak money into Michael Flynn's pocket, literally.

Speaker 2 What I want you to do, Mike, is I want you to take $100.

Speaker 2 I know it's a lot, Mike.

Speaker 2 I want you to take $100 bill and slip it into the back pocket

Speaker 2 of

Speaker 2 Michael Flynn of Slowrunners jeans or whatever on the night and just tell him this comes from a mysterious benefactor. And guess what? That's me.
I'm going to venge on you, Mike.

Speaker 2 So it's all even Steven.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 in the overall,

Speaker 2 I have to honor Mike's honor, and Mike's going to fight you tooth and nail to let you pay for stuff. And that's just the way it's going to be overall.

Speaker 2 But in the particular, for your birthday, I rule in your favor, Genevieve. The Slowrunner concert is all on you.
This is the sound of a gavel. You pay.
Learn. Judge John Hodgman rules.
That is all.

Speaker 1 Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Speaker 1 Mike, how do you feel right now?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 I feel that I have a job to do come Genevieve's birthday,

Speaker 2 and that judgment will be honored.

Speaker 1 Genevieve, how are you feeling?

Speaker 4 I'm feeling pretty good. I think that

Speaker 4 the judge is correct that there's only so much we can expect from

Speaker 4 changing the habits

Speaker 4 and mentality that my dad brings to the table.

Speaker 4 But I am glad that in this case, at least,

Speaker 4 he will be able to come and enjoy the show and have a role

Speaker 4 at the party without being out of pocket.

Speaker 1 Mike, can I have some now and laters and a home run pie?

Speaker 2 I'll leave the money on your dashboard.

Speaker 2 Yes, that would be fine.

Speaker 1 Mike Genevieve, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Speaker 4 Thank you for having us.

Speaker 2 Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We've got Swift Justice in just a second.
First, our thanks to Redditor Something Foul for naming this week's episode Shut Your Payhole.

Speaker 1 We usually name those episodes over on the maximum fun Reddit. That's Reddit.com slash R slash Maximum Fun.
So go join up and join in the fun.

Speaker 1 If you want to see evidence from our program, join us on Instagram at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman. I'm on Instagram at Jesse Thorne, very famous.

Speaker 3 John is on Instagram at johnhodgman.

Speaker 1 We're also on TikTok and YouTube at judgejohnhodgman pod. We post full episodes of every program on YouTube.
So go over there and share it with a friend who might enjoy it.

Speaker 1 And also smash those like and subscribe buttons.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, over on YouTube, we have a chance for you to leave comments. and we always pick one comment.

Speaker 2 The YouTube comment of the week this week comes from user Alan Holm-HV9QB, as in boy, that's Alan Holm

Speaker 2 HV9QB.

Speaker 2 Alan Holm-HV9QB says, I don't want to cause anyone any pain, but Jesse's reactions made me laugh very hard. This was in reaction to our recent case about a couple playing 20 questions.

Speaker 2 That was wild. I like them a lot.
And there were many comments, not just from Alan Holm, hyphen HV9QB, commenting on the incredible facial reactions to some of the stumpers

Speaker 2 that were offered in that 20 Questions game. And it's true.
It's something that you can enjoy on the YouTube that you can't enjoy anywhere else.

Speaker 2 And indeed, Alan Holm, hyphen H V9QB says, I hope we get more of this energy in the future. And you absolutely do.

Speaker 2 Anytime if you've enjoyed listening to an episode, it might make sense to go to the YouTube just to see how it plays out in

Speaker 2 a visual context.

Speaker 1 Our thanks to Robert Vogler at 274 Podcast Hub in Mount Airy, North Carolina, for engineering the North Carolina side of our conversation. Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

Speaker 1 Social media help this week from Natty Lopez. Our podcast is edited by A.J.
McKeon. Our video editor is Daniel Spear.
Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Okay, you ready for Swift Justice, John?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm ready for Swift Justice. Yes.

Speaker 1 Okay. Joan Arkham, classic Reddit username,

Speaker 1 asks on the MaxFun subreddit, is it okay to hang dish towels on the handle of the oven or should you ball them up and squish them into the corner of the countertop on top of the spices?

Speaker 2 Well, that sounds like a trick. This doesn't sound

Speaker 2 well.

Speaker 2 This is a question asked in medium faith. I think that Joan Arkham has someone in their life who balls them up.

Speaker 1 The obvious answer here is porque no no los tos.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, I mean, I certainly do both. I certainly do both.
Yes, it is okay, obviously, to hang dish towels in the handle of the oven.

Speaker 2 Joan Arkham, I get the sense that perhaps you don't like a person in your life balling them up and squishing them in the corner. Maybe that's you.

Speaker 2 Maybe that's someone you share a home with or whatever.

Speaker 2 I do both.

Speaker 2 But yes, I would say the ones in the oven tend to be decorative. in my house and the ones that are sort of out on the counter and squished up are the ones that are in use.

Speaker 2 The important thing is that if you're a person who likes to have a balled up dish towel that you're using, when you're done using it, go put it in the laundry or something. Don't just leave it there.

Speaker 2 It's fine to have it out in use, but

Speaker 2 once it's done, go take care of it. Okay, Joan Arkham?

Speaker 1 I love dish towels, John. Did you know that?

Speaker 2 They're terrific.

Speaker 1 I love dish towel. I got a buddy at the flea market who's a textile dealer, a rag dealer.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I'll buy these gorgeous dish towels from her. Ooh, I'll use them so absorbent like old linen dish towels.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Just give her, I'll give her $5 for those all day long. Ooh, I love it.
Greatest pleasure in my life.

Speaker 2 I just bought a pack of three brand new flower sack style dish towels.

Speaker 2 And I honestly, you know, I share a life with someone. So, you know,

Speaker 2 we have differences of preference. For example,

Speaker 2 the way Joan Arkham does, like someone hangs towels, someone smushes them around. If I were living alone, I would only have flower sack white dish towels, and I would have a hundred of them.

Speaker 2 That would give me so much pleasure.

Speaker 1 Come to my house, John.

Speaker 1 You wouldn't believe how great my dish towels are.

Speaker 2 Just a pile of the exact same dish towels to me is very pleasurable, even though I appreciate decorative dish towels too.

Speaker 2 Most of all, though, I'm really, really happy to share my life with someone, even though it means compromise. I hope that helps Joan Arkham.
Meanwhile, we are inching closer to the holiday season.

Speaker 2 We are probably already hearing about Black Friday sales as we speak as of this recording at the end of October.

Speaker 2 We haven't even had Halloween yet, but Christmas is trickling into every big box store. And I want some winter holiday cases.
Do you want to change your friend group's white elephant gift exchange?

Speaker 2 Are you trying to rent an Airbnb that looks like Kate Winslet's house from Nancy Meyer's The Holiday, but your family is over that movie? This feels very specific to Jennifer Marmor here.

Speaker 2 This feels like a real Jennifer Marmor situation. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Has your professional colleague not seen The Holiday and you want them to?

Speaker 2 Any of these holiday submissions. Jennifer Marmor's favorite movie is The Holiday and we want holiday submissions.
Now is the time to send us your family holiday recipes as well.

Speaker 2 Now, you know, we always have our holiday leftovers episode, usually in January, where we collect strange holiday recipes for hors d'oeuvres or even main courses, whether it's tomato soup cake or eggnog mixed with Fanta orange soda.

Speaker 2 We want your strange, your unique, your customary, your regional holiday recipes. Anything gelatinous is something that we want to try.
Send them into us now.

Speaker 2 We'll get them ready for our annual holiday leftovers party that we have, usually in January. We can't wait to see what we all come up with this year.

Speaker 2 Send your holiday cases and your recipes, as always, to maximumfund.org/slash JJHO, or you can email me directly at hodgman at maximumfund.org.

Speaker 1 And of course, we love hearing about all your disputes. Maximumfund.org slash JJHO is the place to go to submit them.
We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Speaker 8 Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artists-owned shows, supported directly by you.