An Undigested Bit of Beef LIVE in Brookline

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
With me is Judge John Hodgman, and this is a very special episode of our program. Yeah, they say you can't go home again.

I guess that person never heard of trains, planes, or automobiles, because I went home with you to my hometown of Brookline, Massachusetts, and my other home, the Coolidge Corner Theater, where I used to work as a teenager to present this wonderful live episode of Judge John Hodgman in Brookline, Massachusetts.

We heard disputes about leftovers. We heard disputes about pies.
We heard disputes about Charles Dickens' The Christmas Carol, or I'm sorry, a Christmas Carol.

I guess maybe Charles Dickens is going to write another one. Who knows? Yeah.

We also spoke with Sam Couture from the Massachusetts Historical Society about a priceless artifact in the museum's collection.

Let's go to the stage at the John Hodgman Memorial, Coolidge Corner Theater.

People of Brookline, you asked us for live justice and we are here to deliver it. The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Please welcome to the stage Jordan and Sarah.

Jordan brings the case against his wife, Sarah. Jordan says that Sarah leaves a few morsels of food on her plate at dinner, even when she's still hungry.

Then she carefully stores these leftover morsels in the fridge, usually to rot.

Jordan says these morsels are trash. Sarah says she wants her morsels.

And me, I'm just tired of saying the word morsels.

Judge Hodgman. Thank you very much.
Here I am.

Jordan and Sarah, you may be seated welcome to the court of Judge John Hodgman. Who seeks justice in this court? Who brings the case? I do, Your Honor.
And you are Jordan. That's correct.

Tell me about the morsels.

They are quite small, Your Honor. Quite small morsels.
That's correct.

It is often the case that

my lovely wife will leave only the smallest amount of food, even if she is still hungry. She will leave it on the plate.
She will often put it in a Tupperware.

And these will often accumulate to the point that it becomes, I believe it, an inconvenience. An inconvenience.
Your lovely wife, who is a whole human being in her own right.

How do you respond, Sarah?

It's mostly true. Mostly true.

Let's take a look at a typical leftover. I believe that we have an image.
Obviously, the images will be available.

On the Judge John Hodgman show page and our Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. For the audience at home,

we're looking at what might be a pad tie. I might guess it's a pad tie.

And what we're seeing here is

a used

lime.

That's even grosser than the word morsel. A used

lime.

A

tiny piece of chicken. Tiny piece of chicken.
And what, frankly, maybe one noodle. A noodle.

A long, twisty single noodle, but one noodle. Sarah, was this your dinner at one point? Yes.
Did your husband ask to take a picture of your dinner?

Yes. I see.

And were you full at this time?

I believe in this case, yes, I was.

And so you decided to save this? Is this a noodle that you saved?

I don't remember if I saved this. I think Jordan finished this.

And I would say that that's a good amount of the time I don't feel like my morsels are a problem because usually Jordan will just eat them in the moment.

Yeah, Jordan, you're a big old garbage disposal, right? Why is this even an issue? Like, I would eat that noodle right now. I'm frankly reaching towards the screen.

Everything you have said is true, Your Honor.

When we are together at dinner, and if I have the room for a morsel,

I will be still saying this word. How did this even come up?

And this, by the way, this morsel, it's a moist one. It's a moist morsel.

If we are together, but we don't eat every meal together.

And I sometimes eat to the point of being satiated and do not want anymore.

You live here together in Brookline or the Boston area, whatever. Or whatever, yes.
Which is it?

We live in Brighton. In Brighton, very nice.
And okay, so

when Jordan is not home

and you save a morsel, why is it important to save a noodle or a leftover bite or two?

I try to

at least plan on eating it later.

I don't like the idea of it going to waste. Because you don't like food waste.
Yes. Is this something you learned from someone?

I think it's definitely in part a learned behavior.

I have family members who I grew up around who have a similar habit. You come from a morsel-saving family.
Yes. Okay.
Yes. All right.

What's, Jordan, what's the worst rotted morsel you've ever encountered?

It's not the individual rotting morsel, it's the accumulation of rotting morsels. I think it could almost get to the point where a good chunk of the fridge is Tupperware that I imagine is saved,

is eatable food, but is not. It becomes kind of a mold farm at a certain point.
Your whole refrigerator is full of moldy.

I wouldn't say my whole body. Refrigerator, but far too much of it.

Has Sarah ever saved two banana slices?

I was told to ask that by Jennifer Marmor.

She has. Yes or no, sir.
Yes or no? No, sir. The family environment that she grew up in was accustomed to saving such amounts of food.

Sarah, what's the smallest number of banana slices you've ever saved for future?

I don't know if I've ever saved banana slices specifically. Okay.

But I have saved maybe like one and a half meatballs. One and one and a half meatballs.
Like about like golf ball size. Okay, little, little, little meatballs.
Yes. Yes.

And did you end up eating them or did they rot?

I did end up eating those. And in what form did you eat them? I mean, if it were me, it would be 3 o'clock in the morning

standing in front of me. I think I added them to whatever I was making for dinner the next day or the next couple days.
So it's not all going to waste, then, Jordan.

No, it's not a thoroughgoing, pervasive problem. It's a problem often enough that the accumulation grows.

Jordan, in your original petition, you wrote to us describing Sarah's leftover morsels as, quote, an oppressively small amount of food.

Very interesting

co-option of the term oppression.

How, in any way is this oppressing you?

Because I often am the one that ends up dealing with the rotting food in the fridge. Is that true, Sarah? I don't dispute that.

All right, I think I know enough to make my decision. Here's the deal.

I also abhor food waste, and I also save morsels for use later on. And I also very much enjoy throwing away the things that I saved.

I believe that you should continue to save your morsels and continue to be thrifty and endeavor faster to make use of them, but you should also police those containers.

Not that Jordan really has a case here, but for your own peace of mind and tidiness of the refrigerator, Sarah, toss your morsels when it's time. Use your morsels before they're time.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Thank you,

Jordan. And Sarah.

Swift, we got to be Swift. You understand? Swift Justice.

Thank you. Please welcome to the stage, Samantha.

Samantha. Well, that's just one.

That's one person. Samantha.

Samantha brings the case against Judge John Hodgman. What?

This is unprecedented. Jennifer gives me the paper and I read from it.
Okay. Samantha works at the Massachusetts Historical Society.
Last year, she

hang on. Hold for applause for the Historical Society.

Quite right.

Last year, Samantha offered to bring a priceless artifact from the Society for Judge Hodgman to admire on stage. Judge Hodgman agreed to this kind offer, then promptly ghosted Samantha.

Samantha says Judge John Hodgman cheated the audience of its chance to witness this piece of Massachusetts history. John Hodgman says he doesn't even care because he's a heartless monster.

That's not what I.

That's not what I say.

I know that's hard. He's because he's a heartless monster.

That's what it says there.

Judge Hodgman?

Hello, Samantha. Hello.
It's nice to meet you in person. Yeah, I know.

Yeah, well, good.

Smile.

So I do owe you an apology. It is true that you wrote me before our show in Boston last year and you were like, I have this incredible artifact that I think your audience would enjoy.

And I was like, Great idea. And then I never wrote you again.
We did the show, nothing.

I went to the show. I'm sorry.

It was very good. Oh, thank you very much.
I appreciate that.

But it was missing something, wasn't it? Yes. And you very kindly wrote me again and said, What the hell?

And

I apologize. But before we get to the item at hand, please tell me about the work that you do at the Massachusetts Historical Society.
I'm the conservator and preservation librarian for this society.

And

I mean, I think the audio, do you mind sharing your full name with the audience? Oh, yeah, Samantha Couture.

Samantha Couture, when I said the word Samantha Couture is going to be here tonight, do you know who out?

No. Josh Cantor, the organist from Fenway Park.

He was like, oh,

this is Boston nerd royalty coming in here. Like, he just went on and on backstage, like, well, no, she's probably one of the best conservators in the state, if not

the entire region. Well, I haven't met her, but her reputation certainly precedes that.
Exactly.

So what kinds of things do you conserve in the Massachusetts Historical Society? Lots and lots of manuscripts written by people like John Adams, Thomas Jefferson,

and

Carly Stramski. Yeah.

Not yet. But you also, we have a photo of an item, not the item that you want to share with us tonight, but a different item, which we can take a look at now.

This seems to be a glass pig full of dried beans.

Yes.

Did this belong to John Adams? No, it was sent to a fellow named Charles Osgood. It was an invitation to a pork and bean supper, which which was

sent in a little crate,

and it has the little wrapper around the belly gives details on where to go, and the little bean-shaped paper at the bottom there tells the train tables on how to get to the farm where the party was to take place in 1875.

Wow.

And it was also a

15th anniversary party.

I just celebrated my 25th anniversary with my wife who's a whole human being in her own right. I didn't send anyone a glass pig.

Well, John, unlike the 15th anniversary, the 25th anniversary is not the pork and beans anniversary.

True, I forgot.

Speaking of pork and beans, the item that you wanted to share with us is very special. And did you like my transition there? Very well.
Thank you. I appreciate it.

And I don't know whether we should go to the photo or the item. Let's open the item

and then show the photo.

By the way, this is an incredible box that you brought.

You've brought it in

what appears to be a pelican case, which are advertised as being shark-proof.

It's my husband's concertina case. Oh, boy, oh, boy.
Nerd legends of Massachusetts. Power couple.
We should explain.

Her husband is a trained monkey.

Is your concertina playing husband in the audience right now? Yes. Where? Did you bring your concertina? No.

Why not?

Did you know we were having a show tonight?

The concertina does make monkey sounds.

Okay, the concertina does make monkey sounds. Well, hang on a second.

Your wonderful spouse has put on her conservatory gloves, and you're going to remove the item and maybe put it on that little table over there. Yeah, I think that's.

I don't want the oils on my hands to oxidize on the metal.

So we do know it's metal, and we do know that your hands are oily. So, other than that, does anyone have a guess of what it is?

Anyone?

A gavel? Interesting guess.

Cheese, a kazoo.

A kazoo made of cheese. All guesses are wrong.
The answer is

a bronzed hot dog. Let's look at the picture, please.

Would you mind putting it on

that display table there, and then you can come back to the microphone and perhaps explain what it is we're looking at and why we're looking at it.

When I first started at the Society, there was this hot dog on display,

and it was given to the first sentence of many a short story. Yes.

Henry Cabot Lodge, who was running for vice president with Richard Nixon.

And if I may read one paragraph of the letter that was sent to Henry Cabot Lodge with the hot dog. I will allow the hot dog letter to be entered into evidence.

A recent newspaper photo showed you enjoying one of America's favorite foods, the hot dog.

A couple of days later, there appeared a news story that you were giving up the lowly hot dog for a hundred dollar-a-plate dinner. The National Hot Dog Council, that was in caps,

which is sponsored by our company, takes pleasure in presenting you with this memento as assurance that there is nothing lowly about the hot dog.

A million miles of hot dogs will be consumed in the United States this year, and we hope that every one of these hot dog lovers casts a vote for you and Dick Nixon.

See, that's the kind of courage that Jeff Bezos didn't have.

You're really playing with fire. You're really playing

one million miles of hot dogs. That's a lot of morsels.

Well, thank you for sharing this bronzed hot dog. You're welcome.
And is that hot dog a sandwich? Absolutely not. Thank you very much, Samantha Pouteur.

And

would you mind if the hot dog remained on display? That would be great. That would be great.
Yeah. Because it's probably pretty valuable.

It is. Would you like me to assign an audience member to guard it? I think that would be prudent.
Okay, good.

I believe there is a 15-year-old member of the audience.

Would you be willing to guard the hot dog? Well, then please come up here and stand. Come on up.
Stand as a sentry.

What is your name? I'm Foster. Foster.
Foster is guarding the hot dog on behalf.

An apt name. That's true.
On behalf of the Massachusetts Historical Society, thank you very much, Samantha Couture, for sharing that with us. I guarantee you you will get it back.

Thank goodness, or else I can't go back to work on Tuesday.

Well,

maybe you'd like a holiday. I don't know.
But really, such a pleasure. I am sorry about last year.
I'm so glad you could share that with us this year. Thank you.
Thank you, Samantha Couture.

I gavel in favor of Massachusetts history.

Foster, you good over there? Okay, look sharp.

Let's bring out our next litigants. Please welcome to the stage Nikki and Jake.

Nikki and Jake. Nikki brings the case against her husband, Jake.
Nikki is an avid baker and is particularly proud of her award-winning apple pie. But Jake says that's stolen valor.

Nikki doesn't deserve an award for one surprising reason. Judge Hodgman.
Nikki and Jake, you may be seated. Thank you for joining us in the court of Judge John Hodgman.
Have you met Foster?

He's guarding the bronze hot dog. Hello, Foster.

Foster, I forgot to mention,

after we hear this case,

we're going to have a song and then we're going to go into intermission where people can take a break and use the bathroom. You may not leave.
You have to stand there

throughout intermission. Keep an eye on that bronze hot dog.
Okay, thank you very much. Round of applause for Foster, if you don't mind.

All right.

Who seeks justice in my fake court? I do, Your Honor. What is the nature of the justice you seek?

I come here today to ask this court to order Nikki to stop referring to herself as an award-winning apple pie baker. Wow.
This is the person that you love the most in the world. Yes, this is my wife.

You're trying to strip her. Allegedly.
You're

trying to strip her of her award. Nikki, it does seem that you're holding an award in your hands.

This is a plaque. May I read it? If I could enter this into evidence, Your Honor.

It shall be entered.

It says, 2009 East Boston Harvest Festival, Apple Pie Baking Competition, First Place Award. There is a blue ribbon.
Your name is written below it. Everything seems to be in order here.

We'll enter this into the evidence. Foster, just hold this in

front of your body and keep it above your waist. If your arms droop at any time throughout the rest of the night,

there shall be flogging. Now,

Nikki, tell me about the award you won 2009. What happened?

Why did you deserve this award? How did you win this award, I should say? Happily, Your Honor. So the East Boston Harvest Festival, annual tradition held by a wonderful organization named Zoomix.

So I entered.

What is Zoomix all about? So that I can. Zoomix is all about being somewhat less good than the historical society.

We are a round of applause.

It is a youth arts organization. Okay, great.
In East Boston. Terrific.

So I entered into the contest in 2009. Now I had practiced a few test runs to make sure that it was up to snuff.
In fact, I won.

The judges in that court felt that it was an eligible entry, and in fact, it was the best.

And then I entered again in 2013, and I came in second place. Very nice.
So it wasn't a fluke. No, I've actually won two awards for the same apple pie.
So

why would you say that your wife's entry in the apple pie category did not deserve the blue ribbon that is being held by Foster the Child? Excellent question.

While the confection that Nikki entered into the 2009 East Boston Harvest Festival apple pie baking competition was in fact delicious, if memory serves, as I have not tasted it low these 15 years.

It was not a pie. It was, in fact, a cheesecake.

Allegedly. Gasps.

And, Your Honor, I came here prepared to argue two points of fact. One being that she shouldn't call herself an apple pie baker, award-winning apple pie baker.
The other that...

I don't like that you're holding paper right now. A cheesecake.

I came here prepared

to argue that a cheesecake is not a pie, but I hold my hands precedent from this court. I enter into evidence page 19 from the transcript of episode 288 of this podcast.

Will you read from the highlighted portion, sir?

These are my words. Yes, sir.
I'm not the one on trial.

Is a cheesecake really a pie? No. It's a cake.

It's totally a cake.

I mean, it has a crust, which is unusual for a cake, I'll grant you. It is served at crust in classic.
You want to introduce into evidence? Yes, sir. Let me walk over to Foster.

How dare you?

Why have you not tasted this confection, as you call it, for 15 years, sir? Tell me the truth, if you will. Because Nikki won't let me.
Because Nikki won't let you eat.

Because I will not refer to it as a pie, but in fact, truthfully, as a cheesecake, she won't let me me have it. I believe that you have not tried it in 15 years, but I am about to try it tonight.

Do we have,

here we go,

many things.

This is the secret of showbiz.

Bring out things and put them on tables.

Thank you very much. Blair of the Coolidge Corner Movie Theater here,

one of the many wonderful staff members. Thank you.

And

you made this expressly for the evening. Is that correct, Nikki? That's true.
I baked it yesterday. It looks delicious.
And I'll tell you something.

As everyone knows, I don't have a sweet tooth. I have an alcohol molar, especially this week.
But

I do love cheesecake because it is quite savory.

And I also like apple pie.

This, I'll just sort of tilt it so that people can see. Carefully, it's not affixed to that board.

Good enough.

Summary judgment if it falls.

So this is the recipe you entered into the contest. That's correct.
This is the product of the same recipe,

one new blue ribbon that Foster is holding over the bronze hot dog right now.

Yeah,

I would like to say there was a little, there was a different methodology, so there's more topography on the top of this one than there was on those.

Oh, I see here, it's a perfect map of the state of Maine.

What do you mean by topography, though?

It should be a smooth surface on top. You whipped this up for this dumb podcast show.

You're a hero as far as I'm concerned. I used a KitchenAid instead of the hand mixer, and that was the issue.
It looks handsome to me. It looks like a sort of

brutalist

concoction. Yeah, brutalist.
It looks like the Boston City Hall. Brutalist.
Very appropriate.

You want to have a bite, Jesse? I mean, I don't like cheesecake, and you do, but. All right.

I'm going to have a bite. I'm more of a pie guy.
Just going to.

Wow.

this is an apple cheesecake it isn't it has a a crust or on both the bottom and surrounding it looks like a graham cracker crust looks like is it a graham cracker crust would you say yes as is typical in many types of pie and did this recipe like key lime pie

banana cream

i mean coconut custard she's come armed with receipts amongst the papers that were cast onto the the stage floor are some definitions of pie and cheesecake that would only include a filling encased in pastry.

Without your credentials.

You know what? I'm going to go away for 10 minutes

and let you hash it out.

Personally, I'm getting kind of horny.

So your argument before I taste it is that there are many pies like key lime pie that are essentially a custard. or

much like cheesecake, a tart custard within a crust. And that's what you're replicating here.
Is this your own recipe, or did you get it from someplace else?

It's my mother's recipe, and unfortunately, she's no longer with us, so she's not here to defend it herself. No, no, but your husband is here to dance on her grave.

In my own defense, slightly in my own defense, I didn't realize it was her mother's recipe until our screening call with Jennifer Marmor before this show. How long have you been married?

We've been together for 20 years and married for 13? 13. All right.

Close enough. Let me just say that I noticed the gentleman in the front row attempting to pick up the evidence that I threw on the floor.
It's on the floor for a reason. Put it back down on the floor.

Actually pick it up again. Pick it up.

Tear it in half.

Stand up, face the audience, and tear it in half.

No one brings my own words against me. All right, I'm going to taste it now.
Is that all right? Please.

Is there anything that you, if there's anything else you'd like to say, Nikki, while I'm chewing, while I'm having my cake and eating it too?

Well, I would like to say that I don't believe that the case law of this court was binding on the judges of that contest.

And I would hope that as a man of the judiciary that you would respect another judge's decision because Jake was not a judge.

In fact, they saw him standing there and they did not invite him to judge the contest. Jake, while I'm eating this pie, I have to ask you the question I ask all

people who bring the court a case, particularly husbands. What do you care?

Here I go. I'm biting into it now.
My concern is one of accuracy first, because I think the phrasing that she uses in many of her bios, including professional bios. It's a credential.

It's a credential that I earned. It's award-winning apple pie baker.
Sorry, I had to. Just for the at-home listener, just know

that John just very elegantly ate some of the pie successfully.

I opened my mouth

and the pie came out.

I think her phrasing. All right, I'm chewing now.
As Noah's wife in Wayne's World says, I just opened my mouth and out it came.

You talk for a minute. I gotta talk to a boss.

I believe the phrasing award-winning apple pie baker implies the confection that won this award. I don't challenge the fact that she won this award, and the judges, I'm sure, loved her pie.

But I think the implication is that it was a pie that won this award, where I feel like it would be more accurate for her to describe either herself or her

apple pie cheesecake as the judge said

as having won the apple pie contest.

I'm here to tell you, this is a god or whatever damn delicious pie.

That's what I hear. I don't really know.

Several judges thought so.

And what's your name again? Jake. Jake.

I appreciate your impassioned argument on behalf of nothing.

I would say my other argument might be that Nikki has lots of awards and accolades on which to stand and doesn't need to make this one. Corner in this court.

Sir.

Shut your pie or cheesecake hole.

But which hole is it?

I am inclined to say that all the accolades that Nikki has earned have been deserved if she has done her work as well as she has done making this pie.

And I'm not just saying this because you have no case and it's weird and miserly to try to take back, claw back her accomplishment for no reason other than your own pride of pie definition.

I don't know. But I'll tell you what,

this has a cheesecake element on top, but underneath, there are layers of firm whole apple slices that eats like an apple pie. It's delicious.
Who am I to get in the way of the judges of this?

Here, I'll take this back. Thank you very much.
I'll give this back to you where it belongs. And indeed,

yes.

Your Honor, I asked for an emergency injunction? No.

May I have some of the pie? If I have to call it a pie, may I have some of the pieces? You don't deserve to eat it.

I thought I could get away with that one. For those of you listening at home, Jesse just very

delicious. Elegantly smeared pie all over Jake's face.
Jake, I want you to, for this to be clear, I did not do this to you.

And here, let me offer you a couple of napkins. And I think you will agree that it is absolutely delicious.

Wonderful.

I wish that I had had the foresight. to get a trophy from a trophy store to give to you, Nikki.
I can give you my address.

That's okay, because it occurs to me that we already have a very valuable trophy right here.

So let me go ahead and just

excuse me, Foster.

God damn it, the kid's too good.

The kid's too good.

I find in Nikki's favor that Swift Justice.

Thank you, Jake and Nikki.

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I can't wait for a glass to break or a platter to shatter so I can go over to Made In and replace it right there. For full details, visit madeincookware.com.
That's M-A-D-E-I-N Cookware.com.

Brookline, Massachusetts. Are you ready for mega justice?

Let's bring out our litigants. Please welcome to the stage Jesse and Jacob.

Tonight's case, an undigested bit of beef. Jesse brings the case against his younger brother, Jacob.
Jacob loves to read aloud from a Christmas carol during the holiday season.

But Jesse says, bah humbug.

He dislikes a Christmas carol because as a story, it is inefficient.

Too many ghosts.

Which brother is right? Witch brother is a joyless Scrooge who is incapable of realizing he's acting out the plot of the very book he loaths.

Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Brave lodgings for one, brave lodgings for one. A few feet of cold earth when life is done.
A stone at the head, a stone at the feet, a rich, juicy meal for the worms to eat.

Rank grass overhead and damp clay around. Brave lodgings for one, these in holy ground.
Ho, ho, ho. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigans in.

Jesse and Jacob, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God or whatever.

I do. I do.
Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he was sent to this stage to serve as a cautionary ghost for Foster?

Oh, I do. I do.
Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. This is what you have to look forward to, Foster.

Choose another path.

Learn about sports.

Go and be normal. Everything good with the hot dog, by the way? You're doing a wonderful job.
Round of applause for Foster, everybody.

All right, now it's down to you two.

Jesse and Jacob, you may be seated for an immediate summary. Judgment in one of your favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom?

Oh, I don't know. Jacob, which one of you is Jacob? Jacob, why don't you guess first? It sounds like a children's poem written by a very well-known children's author, but I cannot place it.

A children's poem written by a very well-known children's author.

You could say any well-known children's author. Rolled off.

Richard Scary is what I heard. All right.

All right, Jesse, it's your turn. What's your guess?

I really don't know. My prepared guess was Scrooge the Musical, the 1970 film.
So

enter that.

There are many, many adaptations of a Christmas carol that I could have quoted from, but in this case, all guesses are wrong because I was quoting from an earlier story by Charles Dickens, considered to be a precursor to a Christmas carol, called, and say it with me because everyone remembers this one: the story of the goblins who stole a sexton.

You don't remember that one where the gravedigger, Gabriel Grubb, is teased by a goblin?

And they say Hollywood has scraped the bottom of the IP barrel.

There's more gems to be uncovered, show business. In this short story that's part of the Pickwick Papers, there's a gravedigger named Gabriel Grubb who hates Christmas.
The story starts with him.

He's sort of the proto-Scrooge. The story starts with him wandering through town and he hears a child singing a Christmas carol and he beats the child over a head with a lantern.

And then he goes to dig a grave on Christmas Eve, sings that morbid song, gets drunk, and a goblin comes and shows him that there is happiness in life. The end.
You would love it, Jesse.

It's very short.

Finally, John, A24, interprets the classic tale.

In any case, we have to hear this case.

Jesse, you bring the case to court here? Yes, yes, I do.

Are you the older adorable brother or younger adorable brother? I am the older brother. I am eight years older than my brother.

Thank you both for dressing up so nicely and being here today. I appreciate it.

We always appreciate it when our litigants dress in the manner of 10-year-olds who are attending a Judge John Hodgman performance. There you go.

That's what we were going for, yeah. So, Jesse, you're the older brother.
You both live here in Boston, correct? That's correct. Just moved here, actually.
Oh, where'd you move from?

We were living in Michigan.

Where are the view of us out in the audience? Sorry. I'm not thinking about

Michigan anymore.

I love Michigan.

And so, Jacob, tell me about your Christmas Carol tradition. Well, I've read A Christmas Carol myself for many years at Christmas time.
It's a very quick read.

It's a great story. Perfect number of ghosts.
And it's not, may I tell you, it's not as quick as the goblins who stole a sexton.

I'll have to add that to my repertoire. But

so my son was born two years ago. Congratulations.
Thank you very much.

And

last Christmas, he

has moved into his own room. I was starting to read stories to him to go to bed.
Right. And I wanted to share with him one of my favorites around the Christmas time, a Christmas carol.
Wait a minute.

How old is he again? He was one and a half at this point.

Yeah. Okay.
great.

So I say read to him. He doesn't have the attention span for the Christmas Carol.
You got to go with the goblin one. Yeah.

I say read to him. I read it over several nights, and it's more of a way for him to hear my voice so that he can go to sleep.
That's wonderful. And you said that it has the perfect number of ghosts.

Correct. Which of the ghosts of the four ghosts is your favorite?

Personally, I love

Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come.

It's a perfect button to the arc that Scrooge is on. Right.

The first two.

This is the spectral ghost resembling death. Yes.
Who shows Scrooge his own grave. Yes.
And you just skip to that part when reading to your son as he falls asleep?

See, that's my whole point here is that you can't skip to that part.

You can't skip any of it because it all feeds on itself, leading up to the conclusion, which is not earned unless you have seen all four of the ghosts.

Jesse, I know you hate all of the ghosts or some of the ghosts in this book, but before we get to that, do you you believe in ghosts?

Well, Christmas ghosts, I believe in. Yes.
See, because we're heading into the holiday time, and I...

John, hold on.

He said, Christmas ghosts, I believe in. Yes.

Good point. Thank you.
Good catch, Jesse.

Jesse, Jesse. Yes.

You only believe in Christmas ghosts?

Well, I just think that I actually would like to bring up that in the book they're called Spirits. There's actually a difference between the ghosts and the spirits.
Jacob Marley is a ghost.

Is the ghost. Okay, I gotcha.
Yes.

That is a person who was alive and now has unfinished business bound in the chains that he or in life or whatever, blah, blah, blah. Boy, that guy could talk.

And then the others are spirits. They're embodiments of.
Yeah. Okay.
They're more of a Halloween superstar.

So.

We were in Western Massachusetts the other night, and I was visited on stage, I believe, by my own personal ghost of Christmas Future, a guy who embodied many of the things that I am obsessed with, whether it's the Hartford Whalers or members-only jackets.

Can we show a picture of this guy? He just showed up like this.

Can you see him too?

Am I the only one who can see this guy? He really freaked me out. Okay, we'll take him away.
His name's

Andy Royce.

That's his name anyway. All right, let's get back to the case.
So, Jesse, you like one ghost and you hate three spirits. Is that correct? Yeah, I.
What's the story? Why do you hate a Christmas Carol?

The beloved Christmas story.

Well, I just think that, you know,

it's not necessary. I don't think that the Christmas spirits are necessary.
Go on. Is the real problem.

I think that, you know, Scrooge is visited by Jacob Morley, who, you know, convinces him that he's his friend who died and is now a ghost, and that his behavior during his life caused him to have chains and be tormented forever in the afterlife.

And specifically, his behavior of being a greedy monster and being a joyless person. Right.
Yes. This is the social commentary of the book.
You know, Charles Dickens, his father went into debt.

He went to go work in a boot blacking factory. It was miserable child labor, nothing that I would ever partake of.
If I were to hire a child to guard a hot dog,

there would be fair compensation, obviously.

But you're saying that Jacob Marley's message to Scrooge, which is that if you don't change your ways, you will end up like me, an unhappy ghost. Is it enough?

Yeah, I think once you're presented with evidence of the afterlife really existing, like definitive evidence that ghosts exist and your behavior as a greedy miser is going to, like, you should just go save Tiny Tim at that point in the story.

Like, why do we need the other ghosts? I think we should just like stop at that point, like at the end of the first chapter and go to the fifth chapter, right? Like the last part.

There's a plot hole in Charles Dickens that you have discovered. Well, I don't know why no one else has discovered it in like 200 years, but

I think, yes, I think that it should, you know, he should just go to the end. I mean, he's, he, he's, you know, he's presented with evidence.
He believes it.

And I think that at that point, he should just go save tiny Tim. Like, the extra stuff is just the extra spirits.
Well, okay.

It's an interesting reading, and there's something to it, I have to say. But why is it any of your business what goes on between your brother

and my brother? Because, well, so here's the thing. So, so when he was reading, I did not bring this case last year, judge.
So, like, previously, thank you.

What is the point of that?

I completely agree that previously, before I moved here,

it was none of my business, and he should read the story. And, you know,

now my nephew. Now you're here.
Now I'm here. And he's throwing these spirits up in your face.

All the time. He's always talking about the spirits.
This actually has been a philosophical debate for a while between my brother and I, but

nothing actionable.

But now that we live here, we actually go over to his house on a weekly basis. We spend maybe two to three times a week there.
That's very nice. And we're, you know,

babysitting his kids, and we're there at actually at bedtime most of the time.

And so,

you know, what I'm asking for, Judge, is a preliminary injunction, actually,

that we, when we're reading the story this year, because I know that he does this,

I think that we should read the first stave and then the fifth stave, like in that order,

which is the first and then the last part of the book. I know what stave is, sir.
Yeah.

And then, and then,

and then

I don't know my staves. It would be ridiculous if you didn't know staves.

And then, and then move on to other Christmas stories. Hold on.
What's that? I think more logic week and system. Hold on.
Sorry. John, what's this, Dave?

It's like part of a book.

I think it's a book. That's part of a book.
That's what I think.

What do you read to your nephew? Like, the first part of Charlotte's Web, when the father goes out to kill the pig and then stop?

So that's a really good part of that book.

I don't know if you've read Condensed Old Yeller, but that's also a good idea. Yeah,

you read the Velveteen Rabbit up to the scarlet fever part. It's like, well, I think that's all there is.

Kids very very sick, the rabbits in the trash. The end.

90 nights.

Well, it's comforting, right? You know? So you're saying that you have standing in this because now you live here. No, no, no.
I'm saying because I'm now part of the reading project. We've actually,

you know, I do read to him at bedtime. I've put him to bed multiple times.
So when we're there, we take turns to help sort of spell them of like putting their kids. They actually have two kids.

So we often will put

my older nephew. Is he asking you to read the entirety of a Christmas Carol? No, but I am now.

Okay.

That could be my ruling, if that's your ideal ruling. Yes, I suppose so, right.
Yeah, so he is asking me to read parts, at least parts of Christmas Carol.

And I think that we should just be logically consistent and just read the first part and the last part of a Christmas Carol. Jacob,

I love that you're sharing so much of your life with your brother, especially now that I've gotten to know your brother. It takes a lot of patience, I can tell.

You're very close. Have you ever had any other disputes between the two of you? This is,

it's very sad to say this, but honestly, this is the largest one we have.

I think that should be very happy to say. This is years in the making.

We have had this discussion.

We've had to stop having this discussion at family dinners as we get closer and closer to Christmas because both of our wives are very tired of this discussion. Sure.

And it comes up, there's a lot of media that references a Christmas Carol or is is based on a Christmas Carol.

It's a very famous story that people love,

Jesse, and don't seem to have a problem with. They like all the spirits.
They look, it's fun.

Yeah, I mean, it is. Come forth and see me, man.

Ghost of Christmas present, right?

And then there's the willowy ghost of Spirit of Christmas past, right?

And then your favorite, mine is old Scratch himself,

the one that you like to read to your son about.

The ghost of Christmas death.

Sorry, where were we?

We were leading up to the real star of the book, a fine fat goose.

So, I mean,

do you think that it's enough story? You're saying it's enough story if Jacob Marley haunts Scrooge, says, no, I'm not your indigestion. I am actually the ghost of your former partner.

And then Scrooge wakes up and throws a coin out to a kid and buys the cratchets of goose. That's enough? That's enough.
Yes, Yes, I think so. Jacob, you disagree, obviously.

I believe you brought a passage that you wanted to read. So, first, I just want to say that my brother's take on this story is all about the criminal justice system, I believe.

We're talking about rehabilitation versus punishment. My brother here is advocating that Scrooge should be afraid of the punishment, and I am saying that Scrooge should be rehabilitated.
So,

the three ghosts,

so let me make sure that I understand this. What Jesse, in your words, is arguing is that because, and as you said, because

Scrooge has seen that there is an afterlife in which his partner, who was a greedy miser like him, has been punished and is miserable, that that should scare him enough, that that's of, he'd be so afraid of punishment that he should

change his ways. Well, yes.
Good.

Thank you. Glad I got that right.

But you're saying that Scrooge has to go through a journey of rehabilitation.

exactly so i have i have one passage here that i'd like to read great which exemplifies why scrooge cannot just see jacob marley so this is from stave two which is part two chapter two and uh stave that's a part of the book correct part of the book it's the it's the second in this case yeah

stave is the part of the book you use to stab draculus right that's right that's right

go ahead

so this is from uh just prior to the appearance of the ghost of christmas past Scrooge has been told that he is going to meet the ghost at the strike of one.

Scrooge lay in this state until the chime had gone three quarters more, when he remembered on a sudden that the ghost had warned him of a visitation when the bell tolled one.

He resolved to lie awake until the hour was past, and considering that he could no more go to sleep than go to heaven, this was perhaps the wisest resolution in his power.

The quarter was so long that he was more than once convinced he must have sunk into a doze unconsciously and missed the the clock. At length it broke upon his listening ear.

Ding-dong, a quarter past, said Scrooge, counting. Ding-dong, half past, said Scrooge.
Ding-dong, a quarter to it, said Scrooge.

Ding-dong, the hour itself, said Scrooge, triumphantly, and nothing else. Very well read, by the way.
Round of applause, if you don't mind, to Jacob.

So, what does this passage suggest to you in this deep textual energy?

So, at this point, Scrooge has seen Jacob Marley, and he's also, at this point, seen a whole horde of ghosts go past his window, all wearing chains, all wearing the terrible iron saves and things that they forged in life that keep them chained to this mortal world.

And he is still thinking of a way to get out of it. He is still counting the chimes on the clock and saying, at the end, he's triumphant.
He says, it's one o'clock. The ghost isn't here.

I must have gotten away with it. I must have gotten away with it.

And so that's what I'm saying is that he can be scared by the ghosts, but he's still in his head is thinking, how am I going going to get around this?

How am I going to get past this without having to give up any money, without having to change my ways?

So he needs, in essence, all three of the other ghosts, because they each feed him a very specific part of his life story that he needs to know in order to come to the realization, I need to be a better person for myself and for the people around me, the people that I love, the people that I've loved in the past.

Something. Does that make sense to you, Foster? Yeah, it makes sense to Foster.
Makes sense to me, too. How do you respond, Jesse? Well, I think a couple things.

So first, I think that Dickens famously is all very into parallelism where he's always bringing up the same theme over and over again.

And I think that he actually, in an earlier passage, which we don't have to read, but I saw you reaching for your inside pocket.

I was, but the point is... Is that a stave in there? Are you just happy to see me?

It's a stave. Bring out the stave.

Okay.

All right. So

when he meets Morley for the first time,

I hate to do this to you. Yeah.
Marley. Marley.
Okay, yes. Marley.

See,

Jacob, Marley, like your brother, Jacob. Marley.
He's Jacob? Okay.

So he says, Mercy. He says, so he falls to the ground because

Marley appears. He says, Mercy.
Like Marley and me. That's a good

story about that ghost dog.

I don't know what it's about. I don't know what it's about.
Like Bob Marley, the

reggae ghost.

Like Bob Marley, the famous main comedian. Bob Marley.
It's also true. Sorry, go ahead.
I apologize.

Yeah, so he says,

dreadful apparition, why do you trouble me? Man of the worldly mind, replied the ghost, do you believe in me or not? I do, said Scrooge. I must.

But why do spirits walk the earth and why do they come to me?

It is required of every man that goes to return that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow men and travel far and wide.

And if the spirit that goes forth not in life is condemned to do so after death, it is doomed to wander the world through the world, oh woe is me, and witness what it cannot share, but might have shared on earth and turned into happiness.

Now, I would say that he's describing all of the spirits that then visit him, like in just that one sentence.

It is a banger sentence. Yeah, so

but it doesn't take, it doesn't take. He immediately because your passage comes after

Jacob's passage comes after Jesse's snap. I think that Dickens is just used to writing by the word, like being paid by the word.
And so he's just expounding repeatedly.

He was terrified about going into debt. Right.
Like his father. And indeed, his previous work, I can't remember which one it was, but it was financially disappointing.

So he really needed to make some money with a Christmas carol. The story of the goblins who stole a sexton did not do it for him.

I mean, yes, it was not popular. But

let me ask you, you know what? I'm going to put this to Foster.

You've heard both of the arguments so far, right? Yeah.

Now,

Jesse is pointing out that there is a moment where Scrooge is scared out of his mind because he has seen the ghost of his partner. And he has this moment of like, oh, I've got to change my ways.

And then he doesn't. Now, here's my question.

Foster, have you ever gotten ruinously drunk? No.

You've never been hungover? Nope.

Well, let me tell you about something.

Jacob or Jesse, I don't know if either of you are drinkers. Have you ever gotten ruinously drunk, Jesse? No.

Okay.

Sorry,

Jacob.

I'll save you on this one.

Have I talked myself into an intervention?

John, I'm sure you're wondering why we're all here today.

I thought I had an idea. We sold tickets.
My own intervention.

John, you've heard our podcast.

But Jacob, you've been hungover in the morning, and have you ever said, oh, I'm never going to drink again? Yes, more than once. Okay.
And okay, now...

Do you need help? Okay.

After Tuesday, maybe.

But you see the point that I'm making, Jesse, that Scrooge has this moment potentially, arguably, I should say, where he is scared straight for a moment, but then very quickly starts talking himself back into the idea that it was just a dream, that it doesn't mean anything, that he doesn't have to change.

How do you answer that?

Well, I mean, that's because he's written that extra part of the story, right? So, like, if that part didn't exist, like, you could just go to the end and

he would be scared straight, right? Like, he would.

I mean, that program was famously successful, I think.

Jesse, it says here that if I were to rule in your favor, what would you want? You want me to order this book to be banned? That's a fun thing.

That's a great side of history to be on.

I don't want the book to be banned. I want it to be edited.
You want it to be edited.

Yeah, I just think that you know, Dickens needed a more judicious editor. I mean, he was being paid by the word, which is why he wrote so verbosely, right? Like just like a lot of words, right?

And he's always coming back to the same theme because he can get more out of it just repeating it, you know? Tale of two cities, you know, keeping it in the same way.

There should have only been one city.

I mean, it would be a better story.

It was the best of times.

The end.

Everyone loves that story. It's a great story.

Jacob, if I were to to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule?

I would like to continue reading a Christmas Carol to my son and have my brother be forced to read the voices of all of the spirits. Wow, you're asking me.

Oh.

You're asking me to allow you to read what you want to your son. That's correct.
Even if your older brother objects to it.

And he's got to read the spirits in funny voices. Exactly.
Do you do funny voices?

Yeah, probably. Yes, I would for my nephew.
Yes. Okay.
All right. All right.
Very interesting. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my chambers, and I will be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jacob,

how are you feeling about your chances right now? I feel pretty good. Honestly, it was worth it just to watch.

the judge roast my brother. Jesse, how are you feeling?

Well, I was more confident when I came in today.

But I think I made some good points. I mean, I do think that

it could be more concise. Jacob, you said that this was the first real conflict that the two of you had.

At some point, you must have had a conflict over which one of you would wear the white eyeglasses

so that your child could tell which one was his dad.

This is not a joke. Our wives confuse us when we're on the phone.
Yeah, absolutely.

It's a serious problem.

It really is. I had a conversation, not to leave this room.
I had a conversation one time with a comedian Jimmy Pardo about our friends, the Sklar brothers, who are twin brother comedians.

And he and I realized simultaneously that both of us, whenever we're talking to our friends, the Sklar brothers, are repeating in our heads, J glasses, J glasses, J glasses, J glasses.

That won't work with us, though. Okay.
Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

Hello. Hello, I'm calling on behalf of the Beef and Dairy Network podcast.
No, no, I'm sorry. No sales calls.
Goodbye.

It's a multi-award-winning podcast featuring guests such as Ted Danson, Nick Offerman, Josie Long.

I don't know what a Josie Long is, and anyway, I'm about to take my mother into town to see Phantom of the Opera at last. You are wasting my time, and even worse, my mother's time.

She only has so much time left. She's 98 years old.
She's only expected to live for another 20 or 30 years. Mother, get your shoes on.
Yes, the orthopedic ones.

I don't want to have to carry you home again, do I? Right. Well, if you were looking for a podcast.
Mother, you're not wearing that, are you? It's very revealing, Mother.

This is a musical theater, not a Parisian bordello. Simply go to maximumfun.org.
I'm reaching for my Samsung Galaxy 4 as we speak. Mother! Mother, not that hat!

Judge John Hodgman, we're taking a break from the stage at the Coolidge Corner Theater, and we're preparing for the stage at San Francisco Sketch Fest in January. That's right.

We're returning to San Francisco Sketch Fest, not my hometown, but the hometown of someone I know and love,

Jesse Thorne. That's who I'm talking about.
Oh, it was me the whole time. It was me.
Yeah, it was you. It was you, also, Rice Aroney.
Look, we love performing at San Francisco Sketch Fest.

It's one of the first places we ever did a live show. And as you know, if you've ever been to a live show, there's so much more that goes on than what you hear on the podcast.

We have a lot of fun outtakes and asides and moments that you don't get to experience unless you get there to the Marines Memorial Theater on January 18th there in San Francisco.

Why don't you go over to maximumfund.org slash events and get yourself a ticket or get a ticket for a friend who might live over there. And also, we need disputes for the show.
That's how it works.

If you've got a beef that you want to air on stage in San Francisco, let us know, won't you, by going to maximumfund.org slash JJHO and make sure to let us know that you're going to be in San Francisco.

If you're out there, you live in Richmond, California, you're mad at my mom about something. If you went to high school with me, you think I made a bad decision, student body president?

I didn't make any decisions. Student body president doesn't do anything.
That's why I ran for it. Yeah, that's right.
It's a figurehead roll.

And no matter where you live, go to maxfundstore.com because we have lots of wonderful new Judge John Hodgman merch that is perfect for the holidays for the Judge John Hodgman fan in your life, including our right and wrong hats, our new candles, candles, and our cozy goth sweats, along with lots of Judge John Hodgman classics.

All of that is at maxfunstore.com.

If you want a one-of-a-kind treasure, don't forget about the put this on shop at putthisonshop.com, my antique shop, where we also have some beautiful handmade items, including some ball caps and pocket squares made from World War II, Korea-ish era aviators escape masks that are made of silk.

Yeah, isn't that neat?

Put this on shop.com. And if you use the code Justice, you get 10% off.
All right, let's get back to the Coolidge Corner Theater.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

Jesse, I just had the strangest dream. Really?

Tell me about it. I believed I had been visited by two identical spirits

who nonetheless were eight years apart in age. age.

I even felt like, honestly, Jacob, I feel like when Jesse was talking, I saw you mouthing his words.

It was uncanny. Oh, they're real.
This really happened.

Honestly, I must say, Jesse, that I appreciate your take.

As someone who was trained in the minimalist writing boom of the 80s and the early 90s, the fiction writing boom where Raymond Carver and so forth, I believe in efficiency of storytelling. I feel you.

And I found your teasing out of that plot hole to be almost convincing.

Certainly compelling and worth an argument, because, or let's just say, a discussion, a discussion that you have over the dinner table for years and years and years, because it does speak to what motivates people to do good or to be less greedy and miserly and awful.

The fact is that if we did know for sure,

as an individual or as a community, that there was an afterlife in which you would be punished with eternal torment,

perhaps we would change our behavior. We like to believe that when there is possible consequences for our behavior, we will change our behavior.
None of human nature suggests that's true.

Even in religious movements where there's a firm belief in the afterlife, people are talking themselves out of that. They're writing their own indulgences.

I do think that it's an interesting conversation to have, and particularly to have with your son or your nephew or your daughter or your child or whoever it is about why we do good things versus bad things, why we act selflessly versus selfishly.

And I think that, you know, there's a reason that this is a beloved story. First of all, people like extra ghosts.
It's just cool.

I don't care if you got a bunch of them walking out the window, you know, walking past your window or whatever. You want to get,

you know, you got to get a bunch of ghosts in there. You know what I mean? Three.
Rule of threes. There's a rule of three in comedy.
There's a rule of three in Dickens. Three ghosts plus Marley.

That's four.

But you know, that is what gives it its fable-like quality. You have to often learn your lesson again and again and again and again.

And also, by the way, you have no standing to tell your brother what to read to his child.

But as an uncle,

this is an exact kind of weird provocation that you should be bringing to this family. Like, it is entirely appropriate from

a vuncular position to say, you know what, I think your dad's full of beef.

I think your dad's full of poop. I mean, look at this.
This is an afterlife, right?

These are questions that you can be having with your nephew and with your son, and it sparks an interesting conversation. And indeed, I would order you to

continue to have this conversation. But stop berating your brother about it because he's got his own, he's an adult who has his own opinions about this text.

but instead have this conversation separately with your nephew, ideally by waking him up in the middle of the night,

standing over his bed, draped in chains,

and say, nephew, it's me, your uncle.

There is another interpretation of the story.

But otherwise, I must rule in favor of Jacob and you must read to your nephew doing all of the ghost voices in funny ways, but don't just do it in funny ways do it in do really try to give it a performance so that you can maybe understand where the spirits are coming into play and I think it'll be a beautiful holiday as a result in fact I just woke up and I have this this idea like maybe we should start getting it now young man young man

what day is it

Christmas it is Christmas

Here, here's a bronze hot dog. No, come on, it's part of the big

Take that bronze hot dog. Go across the street to Brookline Booksmith.
Trade it for the fattest, biggest copy of a Christmas carol you can find.

Until then, I rule in Jacob's favor. This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all.

Jesse Jacob, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you to Reddit user Hyphem for naming the case in this episode.
Is that the singular of Hyphi? I think that's the singular.

I think it must be. Yeah.
I think it must be. We're on YouTube.

Somebody get Mr. Fab on the phone.
Let them know. We got a singular for Hyphae.
We're on YouTube and TikTok at JudgeJohn Hodgman Pod. Follow us over there.

Don't forget to get tickets to see us at SF Sketchfest in January. That's at sfsketchfest.com or maximumfund.org slash events.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast was created by John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne. This episode, recorded by Matthew Barnhart.
Hey, Matthew. Megan Rosati, our social media specialist.
A.J.

McKeon is our podcast editor. Daniel Speer is our video editor.
Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. And we will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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