Michael Tubbs: Governing with Heart, Elevating Stockton, and Fostering Inclusive Urban Progress

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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of Mick Unplug.

And today, we've got someone that I call a hero.

He became Stockton's youngest and first black mayor.

He's a national leader in universal income, and he's a change maker redefining what's possible in American American cities.

We're talking about from poverty to policy, from vision to impact.

He's bold, he's visionary, he's relentless.

He is Stanford's finest.

We're talking to none other than Michael Tubbs.

Michael, how are you doing today, brother?

Wait, first of all, that was way too kind.

Thank you.

I'm good.

I appreciate the kind word.

Well, I had to be kind because, you know, I'm a UNC Tar Hill grad, and for whatever reason, stanford now plays in the acc

so the kind words just kind of stopped right there because i'm going back into my acc roots and um i don't like stanford anymore

but where are we now we're like but as long as

oh i was just gonna say as long as you beat duke i'm okay

what's funny growing up i went to go to duke because i loved coach k i know it's sacrilegious for you but i was a went to be a cameron crazy um but didn't get in so that's part of the reason why I ended up at Stanford.

Ladies and gentlemen, the shortest podcast we ever had.

No one has ever come on here and said they wanted to go to Duke, and I've let them stay on this podcast.

That is amazing.

Oh, man.

Oh, man.

But no, Michael, again, just honored to have you on.

I know you're a busy man, busy schedule.

So just taking a few moments with us means more to me than literally you'll ever know.

Man, for me, a question I've always wanted to ask you is, you know, what's your because?

That thing that's deeper than your why?

Like knowing the journey of your youth and how you grew up and all the things that you've accomplished when, if I'm being honest, right?

Like the odds were stacked against you.

Like the Michael Tubbs that's before me today might not have should have been here, right?

Like what's your because?

What's your purpose?

What's your passion that keeps you going, brother?

I appreciate the question.

And I think it's

part of it was in the question you asked.

And I think I just feel so blessed in knowing that my story is so unlikely, that everything I've been able to do is so

not what statistics or not what even like wisdom would tell you is possible.

So I just really feel a big responsibility to make stories like mine less rare.

So to really illustrate to people that you can find talent, you can find intelligence everywhere.

if we create more opportunity.

So that's really sort of

my because.

it's really because and i think it's just having really deep proximate experiences with the issues i work on having an incarcerated father being born in poverty having loved ones um be be murdered and victims of gun violence have and it's like well to have all those experiences and then to have the ability or the opportunity to go to a stanford it just felt like it had to be for something bigger than me being successful or it had to be for something bigger than me being comfortable that maybe obviously i'm here for a reason and i truly believe that reason is to just make it so that our government works for everyone that we live in a society that respects the dignity and the potential of all people that allows people to just have a shot a chance

i love it man i love it i like to say michael one of the reasons you're my hero right even though i'm a little bit older than you is you got to live what I call like the true American dream, right?

Like, it's rare.

I mean, we could probably count on digits how many people

can go through what they've gone through in their hometown and then become the leader of their hometown, right?

And can make changes to impact lives

and hopefully help people not go through some of the things that you went through.

What was that like for you?

when you could sit at the desk and say, wow, I'm the mayor.

I'm the leader of my hometown, right?

Because that's something that I've envisioned, but it's like, I don't think I can fathom it, man.

You know, honestly, I've only been able to reflect on it since not being mayor.

And I'm like, wow, what a gift.

Wow.

What an honor.

Wow.

What an awesome responsibility.

But while being mayor,

I think for better or for worse, just was laser focused on like the really real problems we were trying to solve.

And I think part of it was a

maybe a defense mechanism because the problems were so big, I was worried that if I spent too much time

thinking

about me in the seat, it would be paralyzing and caused me not to do anything for fear of making a mistake or fear of doing the wrong thing or fear of getting it wrong.

But now looking back, I'm like, wow, like to sit in the seat and talk about the street I grew up on, to talk about the schools I went to, to talk about,

to do things for the coaches and

the mentors and the church ladies that mentored me

was such a gift.

But I would say, to answer your question, I do believe that while I was mayor, I was cognizant of what an awesome opportunity it was and how many people who've experienced the worst of a city, of a community, very rarely get to be in a position of authority to fix that.

So I think I carried a,

it was a, not a burden, but a real responsibility and a real focus on like, no, this is not for some other people.

It's for me.

It's for my family.

It's for my neighborhood.

And how do we govern in a way where it also feels different?

I would tell my staff all the time that folks are expecting something different.

They voted for a young person.

They voted for a black person that's married for the first time ever.

They voted for someone who came from the not the best school and on the wrong side of the track.

So the way we govern, the way we talk, the way we prioritize has to be different.

It can't just be the same.

And I think that mandate also gave us the courage to be bold in some of the things we try to do.

Yeah, I totally agree, man.

And, you know, I told you offline I have family that's from there and still lives out that way through marriage.

I'd love for you to tell the listeners and viewers who don't know Stockton, California, like describe Stockton when when you were growing up and then describe it now, right?

Just so that people get a sense of what Stockton was like for Michael Tubbs growing up and then the impact and change you were able to make to where Stockton is today.

Yes, Stockton is a very interesting place.

It's the most diverse city in the entire country.

You have over 100 languages spoken in our public schools.

You have

refugees from Laos, refugees from the Chimera genocide in Cambodia, refugees from Vietnam, you have Sikh folks and folks from Pakistan, you have Chinese folks who've been in the city for hundreds of years, you have Japanese folks, you have 10% of the population is black, 9% of the population is Filipino.

At one point, Stockton had more Filipino people living there outside of more than any other city outside the Philippines.

You have

Larry Itliang, one of the great Filipino-American Union organizers from stockton lived in stockton the lois horta met larry itilong and cesar chavez in stockton like maya angelo spent part of her childhood in stockton so it's a it's an amazing place where

worlds cross intersect but also a place with real challenges it's a um

city that historically has been agricultural with a lot of migrant farm workers was also very urban or very urban city problems.

Growing up, my neighbors were Latino on this side, Hmong on this side, Indian across the street, like Cambodia.

The shared experience was like poverty, but there were such different cultures all intersecting and interacting in a very interesting way.

And growing up, Stockton also had its challenges.

I remember in high school, being a high school junior.

And we had to read the newspaper every day.

I remember reading an article that said, lowest in literacy, highest in crime.

And it talked about how Stockton had the lowest literacy rate in the country of the top 100 cities and also the highest crime rate per capita.

I remember

a lot of my classmates internalizing that.

And a lot of us writing our college essays about what it's like to aspire for a higher education in a place where it's lowest literacy, highest in crime.

I remember my senior year in high school.

we were declared the most miserable city in the country.

And I remember just signs our, and being a young person, like, I'm not miserable.

I'm 17 years old.

I'm getting ready for prom.

So that was Stockton growing up.

It was, it, but it was still home.

So there's a lot of love, a lot of best friends, a lot of like culture, a lot of who I am comes from that experience.

But I remember being a young person thinking like, wow, why does everyone think it's so bad?

Like, why is it, like, why is it so bad?

And then going to college and learning about policy and learning about sort of government actions and decisions and how those have a big influence on the environments people grow up in.

So I stockton then.

Stockton now still isn't perfect, but I mean, we were named an all-American city two of the four years when I was mayor.

We

were in Forbes, not for being miserable, but as part of Forbes 30 under 30 and also for the innovative work we did.

We were being known for solutions instead of problems.

So people were like coming to Stockton not to study the pathology of poverty or the pathology of violence, but they were coming to see like, how do we reduce homicides by 40% like we did when I was mayor?

Or how did we do this guaranteed basic income thing and emulate it when I was mayor?

Or how do we do this universal scholarship program so that every kid in the city that has the lowest literacy rate in the country that graduates from high school is now guaranteed a two-year, four-year, or trade school scholarship?

So we didn't.

I mean, still work to be done, but just the narrative of the city shifted.

And like, I was most proud of again what i mentioned and that folks were finally coming to look to us for solutions and not just for problems um and the city is about 300 000 people so um 330 000 people know actually it's fastest the fastest growing community in california with bakersfield um currently and it has um about the same size as cincinnati same size as newark new jersey But oftentimes at a very smaller town mentality that we did a lot of work to try to change.

That's deep, man.

That's deep.

And, you know, I have a couple of questions that I want to ask you specifically to give insight to our viewers and our listeners, because I'm a big, huge proponent as a business leader, as an influencer, as someone that's in the media of being a part of your hometown or whatever the town is that you live and being a part.

You don't have to be in government,

but partnering with your city officials and understanding understanding how government and policy truly works because a lot of times man like people hear noise and they they say oh well i would do this and i would do that but the reality is man like even the mayor yeah you can make decisions but it takes people rallying with you it takes people supporting you to to get things done talk to the viewers and listeners about the importance of that of partnering with your local government, your city officials, and what that means for you as a city official.

Yo, first of all, thank you.

Where were you four years ago, right?

This is like super important.

Yeah, first of all,

like you're, for every elected leader, but particularly like your mayors, your council members, your school board members, those are just folks.

Those are literally just folks from your neighborhood.

Like senators, congress people, that's a little bit different.

They're folks too, but they're like really in the beast of like national policymaking.

But your mayor,

your school board member your council people those are regular folks who go to your schools who go to the grocery store who are really part of your community i think people lose sight of that because like they're in politics like yeah but they're literally a person from your neighborhood who a bunch of people your neighborhood voted for and i say that because i think it's a it's freeing in that you can do that too Like you can also do that role if you wanted to, but B, also like these folks are not all knowing.

like we need help like we're doing the best we can we see the same stuff we you see we're not in dc we see the homeless encampments we see the tents we we we we we hear the gunshots we we we are aware of the problems the issue is not having awareness the problem the issue is to your point needing help in activating solutions because the stats quotes the way it is because a lot of people with influence have decided it's okay, that it's tenable.

In some cases, it's profitable, right?

And it's going to take a, when you,

when you make change, there's always a pushback.

There's always a cost.

And you need your folks and community to come with you and say, I'm not doing this change just because I want to see it change by myself.

I'm accountable to all these folks who are rolling with me, who are like, no, this has to change.

But that only happens if you're activated.

And people just aren't engaged locally.

They don't go to city council meetings.

They don't even vote in local elections.

And they complain on Facebook.

And then you have folks who want to make change, but they're going up against folks that don't want change.

And there's no one backing them up.

And the easiest to do once you're elected is to do nothing.

There's no pushback when you do nothing.

There's no,

in fact, you oftentimes get promoted because you ain't made no one mad.

If you get in the seat and just go to all the chicken dinners and ribbon cuttings, you're good.

But when you actually try to do things, there's a pushback.

So you need community with you so that folks realize you're not pushing by yourself.

And then,

like I said earlier, you don't have to do it for your whole life, but

I do think democracy is a team sport.

I do think there's a role for everyone.

So maybe it's not an elected office, but can you be a planning commissioner?

Can you be on whatever the boards of commission in your community are?

Or maybe you don't want to be mayor forever, but can you be a mayor for four years or a school board member for four years or a city council person?

Like these roles aren't like forever roles.

They're just roles for a particular amount of time.

So find a way to engage.

And again, it's scary to put yourself out there again it feels very opaque and unknown but i'm not saying run for president that does require like a lot but you can run for school board and i think and i'll be quiet after this and deep love to all my local electeds that are good but a lot of them aren't that impressive a lot of them aren't like

the folks you like they don't know like a lot of them just were put there by some interest group sometimes so that should just free people and you recognize and realize that if you have a heart to to serve, a willingness to listen and to read, you are above 99% of folks in local office.

And you should be a part of the ecosystem.

You don't just have to complain.

You could do something about it.

No, I totally agree.

And I tell every new entrepreneur, every young entrepreneur,

the quickest way to success, at least for me, was partnering with my local government and my city officials because I could do events and invite them there.

And And then what would happen is, hey, Mick, we're having this meeting.

We'd love for you to attend.

We'd love your insight.

And even if you're trying, if you're not a local serving business, right?

Because for me, I started my career as an insurance agent, right?

And I wrote all over the country, but I tell you, I dominated where I lived, right?

Not from an insurance perspective, but I was very visible in my community because here's why, right?

If

Michael's in Stockton, right?

And I'm in, I don't know, let's just say I'm in New Orleans or whatever.

And I want to do business with someone in Stockton, I might reach out to Michael and get his expertise or his criticism or what is it like working with Mick, right?

Like people actually do that.

You would be surprised how many people reach out to other officials of other cities and towns and counties to see what you're doing.

Right.

And so like, I tell every young business, dominate your hometown or wherever it is you live, dominate there because by you supporting, and you don't have to support politically, right?

But by you supporting your city officials, that love comes back to you at some point, some kind of way, like every time.

So smart.

Or also, since being mayor, I've done some startup investing in government technology startups and just letting people recognize that.

There's so much wealth created through government contracting.

Like the government contracts for the garbage, for like for a variety of things.

And there's people who have built their wealth off having a relationship and providing a service to the government they pay taxes to.

And I think a lot of people miss that opportunity as well.

That if

you should just want to do good for your community to your point is to do good.

But if you need another motive besides sort of the reputational currency you gain, there's literally government contracts and those contracts go through an RFP process.

But you'll know about the RFP if they know you.

So, literally, I didn't want to say it, but since you went there,

being an insurance, that's what I did, right?

Like, I worked with, you know, franchise restaurants, I worked with construction companies that worked with a lot of municipalities.

And so, I knew that the municipality in Dallas, Texas was probably going to call where I live just to validate me, right?

So, I, but then I could put Michael as a reference on the RFP that I'm filling out because there's no greater reference for municipality than the municipality where you live, right?

There is no better reference.

It's like Michael can fact check and say, oh, yeah, I do know that guy.

He's good.

He's doing some things for us too.

And so again, every new, every young business, even the existing businesses, one, and Michael, I love your insight on this too.

You would be surprised at how many government RFPs that are out there for a plethora of different businesses, right?

Like a lot of times we think of banks, financial insurance, you know, contracting, that's where all the bids are.

There are technology bids.

There are, you know, community economic development bids that can bring in a bunch of people together.

Like there are so many RFPs.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I'm going to throw something out there that people don't know too, because now podcasting is a thing.

I've seen some media specifically wanting podcasters for certain events and it's like, hey, what's your fee?

And I'm like, oh, I do this for free.

And they're like, what?

No, it's a whole

opportunity.

And part of why I'm passionate about government, besides like the policy piece, is that I've just seen so many families in Stockton have become wealthy and generationally wealthy because of government contracts.

But they're not the only people that pay taxes.

Like we all pay taxes.

Right.

And we all should benefit or have an opportunity as shack to be part of the wealth that's created through the government spending our taxpayer dollars.

Yeah.

And just making sure that process is equal.

Yep.

Yeah.

You know, Michael, another reason you're my hero is this.

You know,

sitting in political climate, right?

You're going to face resistance.

You're going to face public scrutiny.

I don't care if you're Republican, Democrat, Independent, you're never pleasing 100% of the people.

And it's the people that sit on the other side.

Again, I don't care what it is that you're going to face the public scrutiny from.

How do you deal with that?

Or how did you deal with that piece?

Because for me, I'm going to tell you, I don't know if I have the patience.

I shouldn't say that.

I don't know if I have the peace within all the time.

but I just want to say, Look, it's not my fault, but I can't say that publicly, right?

Like, how do you deal with that, or how did you deal with that piece of the political world?

Definitely not perfectly, but

I think having a um

not as robust as it probably needed to be, but having some sort of mindfulness and spiritual practice.

Like, I would read like Psalms 37

before city council meetings, particularly tough ones

that says, fret not because of evildoers, for they will soon wither.

Just like reminding myself that this is a moment, but this is not like a forever, forever thing.

And then I also think just being very focused on what it was I was trying to get done and keeping the focus there.

And thirdly, I would say also I didn't, not a perfect job, but I would try not to read the comments on social media.

I would try not to um

I was like I want to hear criticisms that's fine like we could be doing better but anything personal I don't want to hear yeah that's when you get your ego so if I talk about like then you'd be like I'm wrong so I'm like no no no like share with me critiques of the work I would tell my team but don't if it's like I'm this I'm that I'm this I'm that I don't want to hear all that because that's not going to help me do what I want like we need to focus on work that and then I mean having a group of people you could like talk with though and talk mess with and and and crack jokes and and say how you really feel with before you go out into the arena was also helpful um yeah the group chats were very helpful

so you know another thing

that i'd love for you to to kind of debunk or the myth is public policy and innovation right like what's What's one myth that you could debunk about the perception of public policy and innovation?

Yeah, I think there's several.

I think one myth is that

government can't be innovative.

Like government is by design it can't be.

And that's just not true.

It's not easy to do, but it's possible.

It just takes catalysts.

It takes leadership.

It takes like activation, energy to push.

I think the second myth about public policy, innovation is that all innovation is good.

Right.

And I think as someone who likes change, who values innovation, I think being in government taught me that, no, innovation could be good or bad.

Like innovation in and of itself isn't a virtue.

Like change in and of itself isn't like virtuous.

What's it for?

What's it doing?

What are the impacts?

I think the third sort of myth around public policy and innovation is

I think some people think

our policymaking system is rooted based off like rigorous debates and data and like the smartest people on a particular topic coming together to devise a solution.

And it's literally the opposite of that.

Like actually I would submit our public policy is

based off like vibes

and biases

and folks didn't have coffee this day.

Like there's all type of weird non-objective data driven things that create policy.

And I think people should know that, no, like question everything, like research everything, because a lot of what we hold as true

or a lot of things, like, well, someone thought about this.

Like, of course it's like this.

Like someone smart thought this was the right thing to do.

99% of the time, no one thought about it.

Folks just voted or folks just made, or folks just made a decision based off their limited knowledge or based off what their friend who has a friend told them.

versus like actually like thinking it through,

which is why we do need innovation innovation for sure.

Yeah.

So for the young leaders that are out there, because you're one of the best leaders that I know, you're one of the best change makers that I know.

So for a young leader that is inspired to make change in their business and their community and their network, what's one piece of advice you have for that leader?

My grandma taught me this scripture that's super helpful.

And it is

in like the book, no one reads, the book of Zechariah, and it says, do not despise small beginnings because the Lord rejoices in seeing the work start, like work begin, the beginning of a process.

And I think oftentimes, particularly when there's so much need, and particularly when you're young and energetic and have a real vision, there is a

desire to start at the top.

It's funny coming for me because I was mayor at 26.

But before I was mayor, I spent four years on city council.

Like I spent time learning local government.

So despite the fact I was young, no one who was running had more local government experience than me because I had spent four years

in the political system understanding how it worked and treated that job like it was mayor.

like it was the most important political job in the world.

Like I was the president.

And

I think before that,

as a high schooler, I was a youth advisory commissioner.

I was a volunteer teen on the city commission like city council teen city council and i would prepare the meetings and i would read robert's rules of order and like treated that job very seriously and it's funny because the scale changed from youth commissioner to council person from council person to mayor but the fundamentals of the job didn't change and it was like that the skills i learned at the beginning at the start when there wasn't a lot of spotlight, when there wasn't a lot of pressure, when there wasn't, when the stakes weren't as high, I learned how to run a meeting, I learned how to build coalitions, I learned how to speak in public, like all those things became prerequisite skills for the next promotion and the next promotion.

But had I treated it that first thing like it was dumb, like no one cares, I should be the mayor already, then I wouldn't have been ready when I got to that seat.

So I would just tell folks, like, having, and, and

the corollary to that, and it's going to sound mean and kind of grouchy, but it's true.

Like, passion without competence is irrelevant.

Like being passionate about something isn't enough.

Like passion's good though, like, but you have to marry it with like some discipline, some study, some understanding.

You can't just be like fired up.

Or even

a little bit more mean, a little bit, even lived experience

by itself.

Isn't necessarily enough.

It's important.

Like if you experience something, that's good, but we have to marry that with some knowledge, with some understanding, with some,

yeah, just you have to know how it, like, I think so many people jump into things and put it into leadership just from passion.

And passion is necessary, but not sufficient.

Like, you have to marry that passion with like some knowledge, like some reading, like some understanding of what it is you're trying to do, or else

you may make a bad problem worse.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

So, again, Michael, I know a lot's going on.

I'm very gracious of your time.

What all are you up to now?

Yeah,

I'm running for lieutenant governor of California.

So like the vice president of the second largest, fourth largest economy in the world.

So that's taking up a lot of time.

And then I run a group called In Poverty in California, where we're focused on sort of we have some policies in California that can make the California dream real for everyone and not just the people lucky enough to go to San Francisco.

And then I also run a group called Mayors for a Guaranteed Income, which is a group of mayors and county officials now and legislators, over 230 elected officials across the country who are trying to figure out sort of how do we make it so that everyone has a floor to stand upon.

I think oftentimes people talk about ceilings.

All right, before we talk about a ceiling or a cap, let's just talk about the floor.

And actually, if we have, if everyone has a floor, we won't need caps.

Like if everyone has a floor to stand on, then people can build as high as they want to build.

But right now, we don't, don't, some people don't have a floor.

So like, how do you just build a floor for everyone?

Like a baseline level of a bare minimum standard of living that no one goes underneath so that folks can build on top of that as much as they want.

So that's, and I have three kids

and a wife.

So all that is what keeps me busy.

So you got nothing going on is what you're saying, huh?

Yeah, really nothing.

Just hanging out.

I love it, man.

Well, if I can support you in any way, I definitely want to.

Where can people find and follow you and connect with you?

Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram or on X at Michael D.

Tubbs, M-I-C-H-A-E-L,

D-T-U-B-B-S.

And you can go to my website, michaeltubbs4ca.com.

Got it.

I'll make sure we have links to all that in the description and show notes.

Every time I reference this episode, this clip, I'll make sure that it's there as well.

I'll also have it on my website too, man, because it's that important.

I want to to make sure that I am supporting you thoroughly.

You're too kind.

I appreciate that.

Thank you.

You got it.

And for all the viewers and listeners, remember, you're because

is your superpower.

Go unleash it.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mick Unplugged.

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