Stars over Whitechapel with Special Guest Aliza Kelly

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Speaker 1 See Mintmobile.com. Hey, weirdos.
I'm Elena. I'm Ash.
I'm Eliza. And this is a very special Morbids.

Speaker 1 Heyo.

Speaker 1 Heyo. We have Eliza Kelly on the podcast again.
Yay! Yay! So excited for you to be here. So excited to be here with you both.
It is always a treat when you're here. We always have so much fun.

Speaker 1 It is always so fascinating. We have pizza.
I was just going to say,

Speaker 1 we're having a birthday party. We have pizza.
We have Buffalo Dip somewhere that we didn't even take out yet. Yeah, we're going to revisit that after.
Okay, okay.

Speaker 1 You guys might remember Eliza was on the show. We did Stars Over Salem.
And Eliza gave us... all of the insights on everybody's charts that was involved in that whole hysteria.
We went deep into it.

Speaker 1 Go revisit that episode because it's fascinating. We were just like jaws on the floor the whole time.
We just re-listened to some of that and I was like, damn, that was a good episode. It was so fun.

Speaker 1 And today we're going to be doing Stars Over Whitechapel, which is Alina's Magnum Opus. Yeah, this is

Speaker 1 waiting.

Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 2 And as I was saying before we started here, I think that this might be the thing that solves it.

Speaker 1 I think it could be.

Speaker 2 It's not working from all the other systems.

Speaker 1 No, it's not a problem. It's been

Speaker 1 astrology.

Speaker 2 It's like 140 years

Speaker 1 almost, right? Exactly. Yeah.
That's the thing because a lot of people think that they've figured this out. A lot of people think that this has been solved.
Insert Elena's rant. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And the thing is, I don't, if you didn't listen to our episode with Tobias Forge.

Speaker 1 Very first one. Yeah.
No, no, our second one. Sorry.
Our most recent one where we talked about Skeleta.

Speaker 1 I go on a pretty sizable rant about why they did not figure out who Jack the Ripper is with this quote-unquote DNA.

Speaker 1 So what we're going to do right now is I'm going to insert, I'm not going to, Mikey's going to insert that clip of me explaining why the DNA is not solving this case. It is not solved.

Speaker 1 It is not Aaron Kosminski. Not, I don't believe it at least.
So here's the rant, just to remind you guys.

Speaker 1 So here's the thing. I don't think they have found Jack the Ripper.
Not one part of me thinks it, in fact.

Speaker 1 There's many reasons for that.

Speaker 1 The fact that this has been a thing that comes around every few years is a big red flag to me, and it's the same person bringing it around every few years and not really updating any of the actual info.

Speaker 1 That shawl that they're claiming they have this DNA from is a shawl that they're claiming was found at Catherine Eddo's crime scene.

Speaker 1 One, they have no way of knowing that.

Speaker 1 The only way of knowing that would be if it was among the exhaustive list of her items that were found at on and around her at the crime scene that is well documented. And it is nowhere.

Speaker 1 There is nowhere that says there is like an eight foot long, really expensive shawl that might actually even be a table runner found on her person. Nowhere.

Speaker 1 So if we don't have that, then how do we know that this thing is hers and how do we know that it was found at the crime scene? Here's your answer. We don't.

Speaker 1 So there's a big giant hole of doubt that has already been thrust through this entire thing.

Speaker 1 I don't think it was found at the crime scene. I think she would have sold it at one point.
I don't think she would have held on to that kind of shawl.

Speaker 1 I mean, there's all kinds of stories of her selling, you know, shoes earlier in the day and selling anything that was on her. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Speaker 1 I don't buy that one at all.

Speaker 1 Furthermore, the story of this whole thing is that Sergeant Amos Simpson was the one who is said to have taken this shawl from the crime scene, a supposed blood-soaked shawl he took from the crime scene.

Speaker 1 One, that would have been an immense risk to do that. And two, I think we all need to remember what I said a thousand times during our Jack the Ripper series.

Speaker 1 We can't really comprehend how dark these crime scenes were. There was no light.
We're going by candlelight.

Speaker 1 You're telling me that this man plucked a blood-soaked shawl from a crime scene and just brought it home for his wife? I don't buy that. Also, there's the fact that Amos Simpson was a Metro cop.

Speaker 1 He was a Metropolitan Police Officer. Mitre Square, where Catherine Eddows was found, that is London PD jurisdiction.
He has no business being there.

Speaker 1 And even if he is there, he has no business at that crime scene. So that gives me pause.
The DNA. The DNA, we don't even know what it is.
It might be blood. It might be semen.

Speaker 1 They have no definitive answer for that. So that 100% match, I don't believe.
They don't even know what the actual DNA source is for this.

Speaker 1 And also, there is no evidence of him leaving semen at scenes. Of course he can depart from his pattern.
Of course that's happened before.

Speaker 1 I am fully willing to admit that, and I'm willing to accept that if there's other pieces of evidence along with it.

Speaker 1 But the fact that he never did this and there was never evidence of any classic sexual assault or rape at any of these scenes, it was really violence and mutilation.

Speaker 1 It doesn't really fit with the pattern. And once again, I'm willing to admit that a pattern can be broken if you give me other evidence to tell me that that's so.
I just don't see it here.

Speaker 1 The DNA itself, it's mitochondrial DNA. That's what they're not telling you in any of these things.
This is not straight-up DNA. This is mitochondrial DNA.

Speaker 1 It can eliminate a suspect, but it cannot identify a suspect absolute. Anyone in the maternal line of this DNA match can also be the person.
This can be thousands of people.

Speaker 1 Thousands of people in London can match this DNA. So that's not good enough for me.
That's not identifying that is you can eliminate.

Speaker 1 And also, just to put a pin on this, the researcher who has put this forward is Russell Edwards. He doesn't have a track record that I'm willing to follow here, really.

Speaker 1 I will, of course, give benefit of the doubt if he can provide more evidence.

Speaker 1 But he also claimed once, and so did his team, that they found a victim of Ian Brady and Myra Henley that has been missing for decades and decades, Keith Bennett.

Speaker 1 And his family has been looking for his body on those moors forever and hoping to find his body on those moors.

Speaker 1 And it was really fucked up that his team basically announced on social media that they had found Keith Bennett and they hadn't. So that upsets me.
That makes me question it.

Speaker 1 Of course, one massive monumental mistake doesn't mean that you can never do anything good in your life.

Speaker 1 So if he can provide more evidence that says this is 100% DNA match, which I don't believe he can, then I'm willing to listen to it. But no, Aaron Kosminski is not Jack the Ripper.
Mike drop.

Speaker 1 So that's why.

Speaker 1 In conclusion,

Speaker 2 I need the copy and paste files.

Speaker 1 I need to also just like insert the rant after the various other audio moments. We'll play it for you after this because I was pretty hyped up during that.

Speaker 1 Like let me me explain. Really so.
It makes sense. Everything you said makes sense.
Yeah, because I think it's recently like surfaced again.

Speaker 1 I'm pretty sure like Australia heard about it recently. I think this random news station in Australia reported that it's been.

Speaker 1 solved and so it's gone around tick tock all over the place i'm getting tagged in it which i appreciate so much that you guys tag me in anything jack the ripper related keep doing that love it oh yeah uh but i figured i should probably let you know that because everyone's like what do you think about it i'm like let me tell you what i think

Speaker 2 Well, this is very interesting because I, it's reminding me of one of the astrology phenomenons that comes up periodically, which is that there's always, you know, every so often at with some sort of cadence, there's some big expose on, oh my God, astrology is wrong.

Speaker 2 Yep. There's

Speaker 2 the signs have moved.

Speaker 1 They are not where they were.

Speaker 2 Yep.

Speaker 2 1,500 years ago. Like all of these silly astrologers haven't considered the procession of the equinox.

Speaker 2 And every time I get tagged, and there was a big one in the New York Times that came out, and people are like, well, what do you think of this?

Speaker 2 And I'm like, it's the same piece they thought you like three years ago.

Speaker 1 They just keep revisiting this.

Speaker 2 They do. And they keep not talking to any astrologers.
And they keep sort of like regurgitating it. And then the headlines are always breaking news.

Speaker 1 And that's exactly what it is.

Speaker 1 And it's like, and you get why that like the headline would be grabbing. Yeah.
It's just like, wow, we figured like it's clickbait. We've, we've broken this wide open.
And it's like, whoa. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it's, I mean, I, when I first saw the headlines that were like, DNA has solved Jack the Ripper case, I was like, fuck yeah, let's go. Yeah.
And then I read it and I said, oh, wait.

Speaker 1 Then I looked at who did it and I said, oh, wait. And then this guy again.

Speaker 1 This guy.

Speaker 1 So just so you guys know, I don't think it's been solved. I think we, I think we can solve it.
Tonight or tonight. We're going to solve it tonight.
Yes. Personally.
Yes. So stay tuned for this.

Speaker 1 And the next clickbait is Jet a Ripper solves through astrology. Astrology.
Which is real. Hell yeah.

Speaker 1 We just combined the Jackology. We should eat your hat, New York Times,

Speaker 1 a new article that can go everywhere. Combining the two bullshit articles.

Speaker 1 So yeah, this is, I'm really excited to talk about this. Everybody who listens to Borbid knows.

Speaker 1 how obsessed I am with the Drag the Ripper case and that I think I officially became a ripperologist during our research of it.

Speaker 1 I think actually one of our listeners, and I don't know if I've mentioned this, sent me a pin that says ripperologist. And it's on one of your jackets.

Speaker 1 And it's on my favorite leather jacket that I wear all the time. So thank you for that if you sent it.
Also made, actually multiple people made you the certificate, right? And emailed them. Yes.

Speaker 1 I need to

Speaker 1 print them out and put them up. Just put them everywhere.
Like Harvard, you know, doctorates and everything. I'll just put them in there.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Well, next to your letter.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 The front

Speaker 1 letter. Yeah.
See? Perfect. We got to display it all.
So a little spot. Yeah.

Speaker 1 that hey that'll give me some motivation there you go um but yeah so we love this case is just fascinating it's the and i'll say it again it's the number one unsolved case unsolved i mean it is case in the world i mean it's it really is and it fit with so many there's so many canonical victims for this one it's so brutal the i mean the infighting between the police departments it's got everything in this case.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you have it all.

Speaker 1 You really do. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So I think what we'll do is we'll probably just, we're going to start going through um the five canonical victims marianne polly nichols annie chapman elizabeth stride catherine eddoes and mary jane kelly which is the crescendo yeah yeah and i think it's definitely mary jane kelly is considered the last canonical victim and a lot of people will say like they think that it kept going i don't think it kept going no i think we talked about that on our original coverage where do you go from where do you go from there that's the thing yeah that's it it makes sense that it would end there

Speaker 2 you know Yes. Yeah.
Though, depending on who you might have thought was Jack the Ripper, that could change.

Speaker 1 Yes. Okay.

Speaker 1 See, I'm already excited.

Speaker 1 I'm already excited for this.

Speaker 2 Maybe you just change your approach.

Speaker 1 Ooh, okay. Right.
Okay. Maybe you switch it up.
I like that. Yeah.
I like that.

Speaker 2 You've had enough of that kind of brutality. Now you go into more of a

Speaker 1 psychological.

Speaker 1 Try something new. Dip your toe in a different palm.
See, maybe this is it. Maybe astrology is going to solve this.
I mean, it's a different angle.

Speaker 1 It's a different angle. It's a different angle.
I don't see it come from this angle a lot. So I know if it has, to be honest.
If we're going to pretend mitochondrial DNA is solving this, then why not?

Speaker 1 Astrology

Speaker 1 is

Speaker 1 more definitive for identifying things than mitochondrial DNA is. I think so.

Speaker 2 There you go.

Speaker 1 All right. So who are we going to start with?

Speaker 2 So let's start with Mary Ann Nichols, Polly Nichols.

Speaker 1 Our first canonical victim.

Speaker 2 So I should note, you know, and this is similar to what we had also acknowledged with Salem, is that we don't have a lot of times.

Speaker 2 And in astrology, the best way to calculate a birth chart is date, time, and location. So we are missing that very critical time piece, which is going to tell us rising sign.

Speaker 2 It's going to show us which houses all of these different planets fall in. The houses show us sort of the themes of life.
They also can help us understand timing. So we're missing that piece.

Speaker 2 So, in a lot of the, in the majority of the birth charts that we're going to pull, unless we had a very specific hour for something, we're going to look at the planets and the relationships that the planets are making.

Speaker 2 We're not going to be able to discern the rising sign from these.

Speaker 2 So, Mary Ann Nichols was born August 26, 1845, in London, England. She is,

Speaker 2 was,

Speaker 1 is, is.

Speaker 2 I always say is with the chart because

Speaker 2 the chart is still living.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Yeah.
I just listened to the episode where you went over that and I was like, that is, I love that comment. That makes so much sense.
Yeah. Like it goes on.

Speaker 2 And another really interesting thing is that, and we'll probably see this in some of our, in, in some of these characters today, is that when somebody comes back into the zeitgeist or the collective psyche, their chart is being activated.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 So we'll often see that, like, even albums that are released after an artist's death or something, you'll look and you'll be like, oh, they're having their third or fourth Saturn return at that time.

Speaker 2 So, cool. Like, their chart is still being activated and still experiencing the passage of time and energy to it.

Speaker 1 That's so wild. That's really like existential.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
It's really beautiful, also.

Speaker 1 It is really beautiful.

Speaker 2 It's a really cool way of exploring legacy. And a lot of these, you know,

Speaker 2 Mary Ann Nichols, Paulie Nichols, as the first person who was murdered in the canonical five, the first victim of this,

Speaker 2 there are so many interesting things that I say this thing called tank, which means there are no coincidences.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 this is a case of tank.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 she was, is a Virgo sun and a Gemini moon. So these are two mercurial-ruled placements.

Speaker 2 Both Virgo and Gemini report to the planet Mercury, which is communication, it's language, it's storytelling, it's our understanding of things. So, you know,

Speaker 2 not knowing all of her chart without that time of birth, what we can sort of discern here is that she was smart. She was interested in things.
She was curious.

Speaker 2 She was somebody who also was very discerning. She

Speaker 2 was she had this sort of extrovert, introvert, in and out kind of quality to her where she could be sort of like very blabber-mouthy, say the wrong thing at the very wrong time, but then also could pull it back and be like, wait, but I have to get my life together.

Speaker 2 I got to get organized. So there was this sort of like back and forth quality.
And it was all very much about her communication and being understood.

Speaker 2 Now, the reason that this is incredibly fascinating is because, number one, she's not the only person. who is a Virgo, son, Gemini, moon here.

Speaker 1 Interesting. Wow.

Speaker 2 And the other piece of this is that she she was murdered when the sun was in Virgo and the moon was in Gemini. Shut up.

Speaker 1 Whoa.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's weird. What are the odds? There are no coincidences.

Speaker 1 What are the odds of that? So

Speaker 2 she

Speaker 2 truly establishes this story, not just in her birth chart and who she is, but also in

Speaker 2 the chart of her death. And the chart of her death is also the chart of the first murder.
It's the chart that establishes the Jack the Ripper story. Wow.

Speaker 2 So these two, like it's almost like, you know, and this is obviously a little out there for some people, but it's almost like we don't have Jack the Ripper if we didn't have Pauli Nichols.

Speaker 2 And it's almost like perhaps there was something about her

Speaker 2 and their encounter in particular

Speaker 2 that set off. this killing spree that this person went on.
Right. Because how else could it be that this person, I mean, she was murdered just a few days before her or after her birthday.

Speaker 2 She was murdered on August 31st, 1888. She was born August 26, just a few days after her 43rd birthday while she was having her solar return, her birthday, and her lunar return.

Speaker 2 The moon was in her sign. Wow.
So very, very interesting to sort of establish and set the scene with this.

Speaker 2 person in this context on this night.

Speaker 1 That's really interesting. That is fascinating.
Like, again,

Speaker 1 just the odds of that.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Don't compute. Yeah.
Like, that's astronomical. Something you said, too, like, when you first started talking about her, that she's a Gemini moon and then a Virgo sun.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And you were saying, like, other people in this case are that, and how it's like, I really have to get my life together and like that kind of thing. Something we talked about when

Speaker 1 we originally covered the Jack the Ripper case was that so many of these women were at a point in their lives where they were really trying to get their lives together and they were like just about to get there.

Speaker 1 So it is interesting that you brought that up. Yeah.
And that it's a key theme now in the astrology too, like in their charts. Right.

Speaker 2 And if we see astrology, so like what I love so much about this is that we have her chart and then we have her death chart, but that death chart is also a beginning chart.

Speaker 2 Her death chart is the beginning of the Jack the Ripper murders. Right.
So it is the end and it's like this path, this passageway, this portal, this threshold happening, an ending and a beginning.

Speaker 2 And it's almost like the qualities that she had, especially in that essence of like

Speaker 2 kind of stumbling and then picking herself back up and then stumbling and picking herself back up, almost is the story of perhaps even the murderer himself, right?

Speaker 2 Like maybe there is some mirroring that

Speaker 2 there's some reflection here because if that was her story, she got murdered under a sky that was very similar to the sky she was born under, that it's almost like the perfect storm

Speaker 2 of this person sort of being like, you know what? Fuck it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like this, we're doing it.

Speaker 2 This is what's happening.

Speaker 1 Wow. It gives me like chills.
I know. It's really dumb.

Speaker 2 It's so eerie. It's so eerie.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And it describes Polly as a person, that whole like picking yourself up, falling, like her whole life, because we went into it a little on our episode.

Speaker 1 Her whole life was like, trying to pick herself back up a hundred different times and like something knocking her back down. And it was from like when she was younger.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was just like a child, it was just her story.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Another interesting thing is that she was born with Saturn in Aquarius, and on the night of her murder, and during this time, throughout the murders, actually, Saturn is in Leo.

Speaker 2 So, Aquarius and Leo are opposite signs. So, when she was murdered, she was going through her Saturn opposition.

Speaker 2 And so, this is sort of like the flip side of your Saturn return. Okay.
This is Saturn represents responsibilities and rules. It's this very sort of like tough daddy energy.

Speaker 2 So when you go through the planet,

Speaker 2 it is your planet.

Speaker 1 Yes, it is.

Speaker 2 And when you go through your Saturn return, there's this sort of reckoning of the rules, right? Like growing up and maturing and becoming who you're supposed to be.

Speaker 2 Your Saturn opposition is kind of when you're also facing similar circumstances, right? You're sort of like looking at your life and looking at your choices.

Speaker 2 Not to say this should have been how she had to reconcile it by any means.

Speaker 2 But, you know, 140 years after these tragedies occurred, we can also sort of think of the fact that we're talking about these people in a destiny-faded, legacied, storied way, which is certainly not the case for so many people who lost their lives in Whitechapel at this time.

Speaker 2 These people have...

Speaker 2 were really important

Speaker 2 for us continuing to tell their stories as archetypes and as symbols of what it was like to live in these conditions at this time and be so sort of like beat down by all of the forces that are working against you.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. I mean, when you go into this time period and Whitechapel in particular, it was awful.

Speaker 1 That's why there were times when we were covering this and Ash was like, oh my God, I got to step out of this. It was just so dark.
It was so dismal and so dreary and gloomy. And there was just like,

Speaker 1 it felt like there was no end in sight to just like the dreariness of it. You know what I mean? Like everyone was struggling,

Speaker 1 everything was dirty and just like dark. And everybody was trying to make their way, but like there was no way out.
Yeah, drinking their problems away.

Speaker 1 It literally is hell. And he feels, it feels like he swept in here and just became a personification of it, essentially.
Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And also, you know, in this really weird way, we can talk about that now,

Speaker 2 you know, from the luxury of these lovely couches,

Speaker 2 but also recall what it was like to be in those conditions, where if there wasn't Polly Nichols getting murdered under the same sun and moon that she was born under, then we wouldn't be talking about it.

Speaker 2 You know, we wouldn't be talking about what it was like to live in that time.

Speaker 1 No, we wouldn't even, probably wouldn't even know what it felt like to live in Whitechapel at that time or know any of that. Not at all.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So it really is a very, so it's a really interesting start. It is.

Speaker 2 I also want to call out another signature that we're going to see throughout all of this, which is really profound.

Speaker 2 And I have goosebumps looking at this, and I hope that I can convey this to you when I share it, which is that

Speaker 2 during this time, 1888, from 1888 until... the early 1890s, we had a very rare astrological occurrence happening, which is that we had a conjunction between Neptune and Pluto.

Speaker 2 So, just as a, you know, just to sort of, we have not had this since, and we will not have it again until almost the year 2400. Wow, wow.
Until the 2390s. Holy shit.
So, this does not happen.

Speaker 2 This doesn't happen in most people's lifetimes.

Speaker 1 This is significant. Truly, yeah.

Speaker 2 This is a very unique thing to happen and to encounter. If this was happening in our lifetime, astrologers would not even know what to do with themselves.
Wow.

Speaker 1 It's so wild.

Speaker 2 Because Neptune has a cycle, an orbit of 165 years. Pluto has an orbit of 248 years.

Speaker 2 So for them to link up takes a really, really long time because they are such, these are the two furthest celestial bodies we track in astrology.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 Neptune represents illusion, delusion, fantasy.

Speaker 2 It's mystery.

Speaker 1 Oh, it is.

Speaker 2 It's mist, quite literally.

Speaker 2 It's things dissolving. It's things disappearing.
And Pluto is the underworld. It is death.

Speaker 2 It is big, deep transformation. And Neptune, this misty, elusive, mysterious, eerie, sort of like enchanted supernatural energy, combined with Pluto's own darkness and heaviness and supernatural.

Speaker 2 Like this is Whitechapel.

Speaker 1 Yes, it literally set the tone. Yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 This is actually this. This is like mind-boggling.
Especially when you go into like the mystery and the like, even just mist.

Speaker 1 I was just going to say, even just saying all you think of. Yeah.
When you think of Whitechapel, you just think of a haze. Misty, hazy.
Yes.

Speaker 2 And dark.

Speaker 1 Dark. Yep.
Like full of death and full of pain and full of like struggling and mystery. It's like

Speaker 1 we're still here talking about the mystery.

Speaker 2 And that's the enduring. Yes.
That's the legacy of it. Right.

Speaker 1 And then Pluto, which is death. Death.
Like mystery, haze, death. Yes.
Like, holy shit. That's actually, that's actually crazy.

Speaker 2 It's insane.

Speaker 1 That's wild. And so, like, we really need to just point out how insane it is that we'll never experience that.
We never have. And, like, most people won't.
That's crazy to me.

Speaker 1 That it's not going to happen again.

Speaker 2 It's not going to happen again, you know, for many, many, many versions of our grandchildren.

Speaker 1 Like, it's such a specific circumstance. And this case has that energy, that one-of-a-kind

Speaker 1 thing to it, because it's like we've seen so many awful cases since then, obviously.

Speaker 1 But this one is stuck in everyone's mind as like the most fascinating one, the most enduring one, the most brutal one, the one that everybody just like upset.

Speaker 1 Like it becomes everybody's hyperfixation. It's like, but there's many more that are also brutal cases.
Why is this the one? You know what it is?

Speaker 1 I feel like part of this being the one is that it feels like lore. It feels like legend.
It does. And I feel like that's like the Neptune role of it all.
The Neptune.

Speaker 2 And there's also something.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there's something paranormal about it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Which that was honestly like one of the things, that was one of the theories people had: was this a vampire? Was this a ghost? Was this somebody supernatural? Even Mike

Speaker 1 still thinks it's a vampire. Mikey thinks that I do.
But it was one of those things people talked about. He has to be a ghost.
How can he get in there and get out of there? Yeah. So quickly?

Speaker 1 Like, how is he never seen by anybody? Like, it. It has a paranormal aspect to it.
It absolutely does.

Speaker 2 Another thing that's interesting about this is that Neptune represents the camera. It represents the lens.

Speaker 2 And one of the things in my research around this that I kept having to be jump-scared by at two o'clock in the morning are the photos.

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 2 of these people.

Speaker 1 The photos, the autopsy photos, the crime scene photo of Mary Jane Kelly. Yeah.
I saw those in high school for the last time and those will remain in your brain forever once you see them.

Speaker 2 Exactly. Yeah.
And that is Neptune, the camera lens, and then Pluto, the death, and the legacy and that sort of joining forces.

Speaker 2 And I think that is one of the reasons also that this case is so enduring. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Is that we have just enough technology and documentation to be able to not just say like, and it was brutal, but be like,

Speaker 2 even by our like.

Speaker 1 overexposed video game standards this is fucked up yeah like when you describe the mary jane kelly crime scene your mind can't even conjure no not at all what that photo is going to show you.

Speaker 1 Because that photo, you're like, that's a person in that bed? Yeah. Like, it's, and you describe it, you know, that he disfigured her to the point of not even knowing that that's a person on the bed.

Speaker 1 And you can describe it as much as you want, but that picture will haunt you for the rest of your life if you look at it. Yeah.
And like you said, it's just enough technology that we got those photos.

Speaker 1 I was just going to say, like, they're some of the first crime scene photos we have. Yeah, exactly.
In existence.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Exactly. So this was occurring in the sign of Gemini, which is also very interesting.

Speaker 2 You're bad.

Speaker 1 That happened with the Salem Witch trials, too.

Speaker 2 Well, and I think that we might have talked about way back then, a year ago, how Uranus is moving into Gemini.

Speaker 2 We're even closer to that now than we were then. But I think what's interesting about that is, you know, we talk about charts being living and breathing entities.
And

Speaker 2 we have this Neptune-Pluto conjunction in early degrees of Gemini, which is where Uranus Uranus is going. Uranus is often considered the planet, Uranus's innovation,

Speaker 2 breakthroughs, discoveries, shocking things. It's also often considered the planet of astrology.
So I think we are going to solve it through astrology.

Speaker 1 We're going to do it.

Speaker 1 That is my thesis.

Speaker 1 But for this.

Speaker 2 But even for those who push back and say, but

Speaker 2 what about the DNA? What about the science?

Speaker 1 Honey. Where is the

Speaker 1 ring?

Speaker 2 Some things we need the ancient texts for.

Speaker 1 Yes, and we don't have the right DNA here. No, everybody, we don't have that.
So

Speaker 1 including babe, we got to move to the adjacent thing here.

Speaker 2 Yes, we got to

Speaker 2 keep pivoting.

Speaker 1 Got to keep pivoting. And hey, if we, maybe we can use the astrology to confirm the mitochondrial DNA because that's all it's used for.
There you go. It's not used to identify.
I say it again.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 or maybe

Speaker 1 it's going to confirm what I say that that's not. Which is Aaron Husminsky is not the killer.

Speaker 2 There's a few more things that I want to just mention because this chart is, again, the birth chart of these murders, right?

Speaker 2 So this is maybe the most important chart that we have in all of them, right?

Speaker 2 Her death chart, our beginning of a story chart. So Jupiter was in Scorpio during this time.
It was in its final degrees of Scorpio. At this time of her death, it was at 28 degrees.

Speaker 2 Mars, the planet that is often considered the most violent planet, is also in Scorpio.

Speaker 1 Mars is like war. War.
I was going to say, doesn't that represent? Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's, yeah, there's like a also a knife is one of the images associated with Mars. Like, it is truly, it's like a blade, a weapon, is one of its associations.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Mars and Jupiter conjunct, both in Scorpio. Mars at 22 degrees, Jupiter at 28 degrees.

Speaker 2 Also, just to sort of like contextualize Jupiter and Scorpio.

Speaker 2 Jupiter is the planet of expansion. It enhances

Speaker 2 wherever it is. And Scorpio is associated with

Speaker 2 the sort of like our own shadow,

Speaker 1 our own darkness.

Speaker 2 So my working theory, right, is that there's something around Polly Nichols that triggers this impulse. Okay.
In our murderer, right?

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 And that is triggered by Jupiter in Scorpio, conjunct Mars in Scorpio.

Speaker 1 It's this like rage energy. Yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 1 she was a real, like, she stood her ground. Like, she, like, Paulie Nichols was like not taking shit.
Right. Yes.
So maybe that was one of the things that

Speaker 2 was something that all, every single victim has in common is that they all had their throat, their throats sloshed, right? They all couldn't talk.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 2 because one of the things that is defining about her as a Virgo son, Gemini, moon, is her communication.

Speaker 1 I was just going to say, yeah.

Speaker 2 And that is also embedded in this chart as a sun in Virgo and a Gemini moon. And then also with that Neptune, Pluto, Gemini signature.

Speaker 2 So something that I then proceeded to do for the rest of these, especially for our suspects, is to look to see where is that conjunction activating their chart. Okay.

Speaker 2 Because to me, like, that's a really interesting piece of information.

Speaker 1 Definitely. It's a consistent thing.
Exactly.

Speaker 1 And it's something that a lot of people talked about because nobody heard a lot during this. And it's, you know, this was in the middle of the night.

Speaker 1 You're going to hear someone crying, you know, like it's pretty quiet out there. No one would hear a lot of things.
And it's because he would immediately silence them.

Speaker 1 He would immediately silence them from behind or whatever he would do. So it's like that really was his first priority.
First priority.

Speaker 2 And that silencing to me, especially if we think of this triggering him somehow, her her triggering him, this energy triggering him, is like maybe that's a clue, right?

Speaker 1 Is something about like speech and vocalization?

Speaker 1 Doesn't want to hear it.

Speaker 1 Doesn't want to hear it.

Speaker 2 And maybe he was silenced, right? Like maybe there is some sort of like a deep psychological trigger that has driven him to this point of insanity of like,

Speaker 2 no one's talking.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't want to hear you. I don't want to hear it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 That could easily be like, we could go right back to like the trope of the overbearing, you know, mother.

Speaker 1 It was literally right in my mind. Maybe he had a mother who, you know, never stopped.

Speaker 2 That's interesting because there are some suspects with big mother issues.

Speaker 1 Big mommy issues.

Speaker 2 Big mommy energy.

Speaker 1 And you think about

Speaker 1 like, these are like sex-motivated crimes. It was like sex workers.
I wouldn't be surprised.

Speaker 1 I think, like, Oedipus of it all. Exactly.
I feel like he could have like an Ed Gein type mom figure that

Speaker 1 was kind of overbearing. Overly, possibly over-religious, possibly overbearing about like sexuality.
Shamed him about

Speaker 2 something shaming.

Speaker 1 Like it feels like that's part of it. Or was constantly talking about women such as our canonical five who happened to be sex workers.

Speaker 1 I guarantee you he heard in part of his life horrible things about these kind of women. Yeah.
And so he felt some kind of rage against them.

Speaker 2 Right. And then being like, the little bitch he is.
Exactly. He goes to like the people who are the most helpless.

Speaker 1 Right. And decides to do.
Or, I mean, maybe his mom was a white child. That's kind of what I was thinking.
And he was getting revenge.

Speaker 1 You know, because that also just really lends itself to the theory that he did have a medical background. Because this is somebody that maybe came from a situation that wasn't so great.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, like his mom was struggling to get by.

Speaker 1 Maybe they didn't have a good relationship. He got out of there and these women reminded him.
Yeah. And he wanted to strike back.
Yeah. And he hated that.
So that's where it came from. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's a possibility. There's, there is all of this, Like, I just, I think I spend so much time with this chart because I'm like, this is it.
Right.

Speaker 2 Like, if we're going to find something, it's going to be here, right here, in how it started and its origin story.

Speaker 1 You know, the law.

Speaker 2 The villain origin story. Literally.

Speaker 1 Literally.

Speaker 2 It is this chart. Yeah.
This, I'm going to, I'll give this to you to add to your collection of things.

Speaker 1 Oh, but I'm so familiar with how freely it works.

Speaker 2 Yeah. No, it's, it is the villain origin story chart.

Speaker 1 It's fascinating. It really is.

Speaker 2 So then we have victim number two.

Speaker 1 We have Annie Chapman. Annie Annie Chapman.

Speaker 2 And this was about a month later. Or no, this was not a month later.

Speaker 1 This is another case of a birthday corresponding. Yeah, there was a lot of.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they were quick succession. I remember when we were talking about it originally, I was like, oh, my God, it's always right around their birthdays that they get killed.

Speaker 1 Because this was right in September.

Speaker 2 So Annie Chapman was born September 25th, and she was killed September 8th. Yeah.
So this was another situation of this was right after a birthday. This was about to celebrate a birthday.

Speaker 2 I mean, I don't know who's like actually having like a celebration.

Speaker 1 Yeah, celebration. Like, who's doing pin the tail on the donkey here?

Speaker 1 But I am. I love a birth.
I love a birthday. But again, killed under a Virgo sun.

Speaker 2 So she is a Libra son with a Virgo moon, and she was killed under the exact flip of it. Okay.
She was killed under a Virgo sun with a Libra moon.

Speaker 2 So this is another one of those like very tank, eerie sort of mirroring things that is happening.

Speaker 1 Like complete opposite. What What are the odds?

Speaker 2 Yeah, so Annie,

Speaker 2 a different energy, a different kind of a character astrologically, a different birth chart profile. I mean, similarities.
They're born

Speaker 2 in the same types of conditions. They're five years apart.

Speaker 2 But with her Libra sun and her Virgo moon, we're seeing someone who is diplomatic.

Speaker 2 We're seeing someone who is very actively sort of like trying to, you know, harmonize, make things good, make things better for herself.

Speaker 2 She has a Virgo moon, and every Virgo moon I have ever met is so hard on themselves.

Speaker 2 Every Virgo moon I have ever met is very, and could be very self-deprecating.

Speaker 2 And when I was reading about sort of her circumstances and what was leading up to this night, September 8th, when she's murdered, it seems like it was just like one of those, like,

Speaker 2 she's just like, can't get a break. She just can't catch a break no just such a theme such a theme

Speaker 2 and this feeling of just like i in her case i think that she was a little bit more

Speaker 1 there was a little more giving up okay in her situation i think so she had she had kind of become her nickname her nickname was dark annie and it was because she drank a lot and she got like pretty gnarly when she drank and i think she tried to get away from that and then it sounds like she just kind of leaned into it a little bit she had lost a lot by

Speaker 1 and she was very like skilled in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1 Like she crocheted, I believe. She did a lot of that kind of stuff.
And she was able to sell that stuff for a little while. And she tried to lean back on that, but it just wouldn't work out for her.

Speaker 1 Something would happen that would knock her off, you know, the right path or that path.

Speaker 1 And then she would just end up back here. So I feel like there, it happened so many times that it does feel like she started just leaning into the dark, Annie.
Yeah. Kind of thing.
Yep. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It, you know, these sort of signatures in her chart, to me, it's sort of, it, it's very, it's sad because I get the sense that she really wanted to live a different and better life.

Speaker 1 She really did.

Speaker 2 And she was like, we have some other characters who kind of are just like, no, this is my, this is my vibe.

Speaker 1 This is my story. Yeah, like living in it.

Speaker 2 Honestly, even Polly more, right? Polly is more just like, eh, this is what here we are.

Speaker 1 Yeah, here we are.

Speaker 2 Like, you love me, hate me.

Speaker 1 It's white chocolate. It's white.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
What do you want to do? White chocolate.

Speaker 1 It's a white reveal.

Speaker 2 But with this one, with this person, I think that like she was really sort of at the end of her rope.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And she was interestingly at the time of her death

Speaker 2 going through her Jupiter return.

Speaker 2 She has Jupiter in Scorpio in her chart. That only happens every 12 years.
For our lovely listeners, don't think that when you have your Jupiter return, you're going to end up being slain by

Speaker 1 an unsolved Jack the Ripper.

Speaker 2 But in her case, you know, again, I'm thinking of it of like, why these people, why are these our archetypes? Why are these the people who are telling the story?

Speaker 2 Why are these the people that we're still telling their stories all of this time later? And for her, like they're, for all of them, there's a legacy piece in this.

Speaker 2 And I think part of this legacy piece was for her just like, this is the end of the line. Yeah.
She, that she reached the end of the line of. many, many decades of tragedy and suffering.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And trying to better it. Yeah.
Her Jupiter return being in Scorpio, I feel like, is so significant because that's a pretty dark placement for Jupiter, right?

Speaker 2 It can be. Yeah.
I mean, it certainly is, you know, something to, as a reference point for our Jupiter and Scorpio is that we had Jupiter and Scorpio during, most recently during the Me Too era.

Speaker 2 So it was sort of during this, this big reveal of all of the abuses and power dynamics and the way that people were abusing the hierarchy and the systems and taking advantage of women was when the last time that we culturally experienced Jupiter and Scorpio.

Speaker 2 So there is a deep correlation to sex and sexuality, to shame, to darkness, to things that we don't talk about.

Speaker 2 I mean, like Harvey Weinstein is, to me, like, and that big exposure around him, ew, is... him is Jupiter and Scorpio.
He is the essence of Jupiter and Scorpio to me.

Speaker 1 You know, okay. So that feels so significant.
Yes. That really does.
When she died, you know, absolutely.

Speaker 2 And her death was an intensified version of what we had experienced with Holly, right?

Speaker 2 We, she had her throat cut, she had her abdomen opened, her uterus removed, intestines placed over her shoulder.

Speaker 2 The removal, what do you think about the removal of the organs?

Speaker 1 And why couldn't they find them? That's the thing. Because do you think he took them? Yeah, I was going to say, I think he's got trophies.
Yeah, he had them. Because that from hell letter,

Speaker 1 you know, it's, it's highly, hotly contested of whether that's real or not. But it did come with a piece of a human kidney.
And it was tested and it was a human kidney. So who knows?

Speaker 1 So I think he's got them. And I think he was probably planning on doing more of that kind of shit with it.
But I think he just ran out of time or he decided it wasn't.

Speaker 1 He said, you know, like I can't keep doing this.

Speaker 1 Or he just thought it was a little too close of a call. That's what I think.
I think he had gone a step too far and he was risking he almost BTK'd it. Exactly.

Speaker 1 Before BTK'd BTK it, he didn't want to just like give the disc and be like, no, it's fine. Yeah.
You can't trace me with this right now. I think he kept them.
I think he kept them as trophies.

Speaker 1 Interesting that the intestines were thrown over her shoulder. I always found that really interesting.
That does feel... It feels intentional.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You don't just whip intestines over someone's shoulder. It's not easy to do.
Like that's you unravel. Like intestines aren't just like willy-nilly in you.

Speaker 1 You got to like take them them out and do kind of unravel like that's

Speaker 1 that's not by chance was she one of the i remember one of the particular victims really carried like every article of clothing that they had was she one of those a lot of them did i know catherine edoes was one of those that had a lot of it almost feels like here throw this over your shoulder too while you're at it you know what i mean yeah like that makes sense i think um Yeah, I think she, I mean, they, all of them had many layers of clothing.

Speaker 1 Because it's also freezing. Cause it was like, and they just carried everything on them at all times kind of thing.
And they would like, you know, collect things as they went.

Speaker 1 Well, and they didn't have a permanent place to stay. So they just sell stuff too.
Like, if you have a lot of layers, you can sell a layer and get some money. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But yeah, it always seemed to me there was a message there. Yeah.
For sure. It was almost like it was definitely taunting.

Speaker 2 Well, I think that that's when, for me,

Speaker 2 I started to have that trigger of like the black dahlia is the display. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Right. It's very theatrical.

Speaker 2 Which also happened during Jupiter and Scorpio.

Speaker 1 Really? Yes. Oh, I just got a full walm moment.
That's that's crazy. What the coincidence.

Speaker 2 Not only that, but Saturn was in Leo for both of them, too. So Saturn and Jupiter, which are both considered like the head honchos of astrology, it's like the two daddies.

Speaker 2 I say Jupiter is casino daddy.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It's like, yeah,

Speaker 1 it's like you go in, yeah, expands.

Speaker 2 You go into Vegas with him. He's like dripping in gold.

Speaker 1 I love that.

Speaker 2 Ladies on either arm.

Speaker 2 And then Saturn is the casino owner of the suit walking around,

Speaker 2 making sure you're not fucking dealing with the mafia, with whoever it is.

Speaker 1 Teaching a lesson. Exactly.
Yeah. Killing people in the rules.

Speaker 2 So you have sort of the external and the internal parts of this system.

Speaker 1 I love thinking about it. Like, that's actually really helpful too, learning astrology.
It really is.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But both of these were in the same placements. And what are the odds of that?

Speaker 1 I mean, like,

Speaker 2 there must be a mathematician out there who can quickly generate that for us. But it's very unlikely.
It's very rare, right? That's crazy. It only happens a few times a century.

Speaker 1 It feels significant. Yeah, it does.

Speaker 2 And they're square.

Speaker 2 That's the aspect they're making. So Jupiter and Scorpio, as we said, it's like, you know, there's the shame piece, the exposing, the darkness.

Speaker 2 Saturn and Leo, Leo is the performative, you know, theatrical

Speaker 2 sort of look at me energy

Speaker 1 in the spotlight.

Speaker 2 Yeah, to me,

Speaker 2 at this point, we know that Jack the Ripper wants attention. Oh, yeah.
That this is not something that he's doing and trying to conceal. Right.

Speaker 2 He's concealing his identity, certainly, but he doesn't want people to catch him in the act. No.
He has some goals of these encounters.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he wants to hear about it after. Yes.
He has a woman. And he's not hiding bodies.

Speaker 1 No. He's

Speaker 2 intestines on display.

Speaker 1 And he's getting more and and more on display as these exact women are killed. He's getting bolder and bolder as he goes, too.
Yeah. Yes.

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Speaker 2 So this is an this is an interesting one because this is also the last one that we have with Jupiter in Scorpio. Jupiter is about to switch

Speaker 2 signs. Okay.
And I think that this, and that's my working theory for why things really get wild.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 That's interesting. So next we have Elizabeth Stride.
Long Liz. Long Liz.

Speaker 2 Long Liz. And they don't know why.

Speaker 1 Yeah. They don't.
She's just long Liz. Long Liz.
She was tall.

Speaker 2 Maybe. They also said that she had a long face.
Maybe

Speaker 2 just something movie.

Speaker 1 Something long. The Nixon were wild back then.
They were.

Speaker 1 They're all like, they were bullies. They were like, they were very mean.
Yeah, they were roast. Yeah.
I don't want to know what my nickname would have been. Tell me.

Speaker 1 I don't want an 1888 Whitechapel nickname.

Speaker 1 I'm sure there's a generator out there somewhere. We know we're not.

Speaker 1 There's not. Now there is.

Speaker 1 We need that generator. We need to.

Speaker 2 That's so funny.

Speaker 2 So Elizabeth was a Sagittarius sun,

Speaker 2 an Aquarius moon.

Speaker 2 And she had a bunch of planets in Aquarius, actually.

Speaker 2 She's born.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 She was born in, she was a Swedish woman.

Speaker 2 She had Mars in Aquarius. She had Neptune in Aquarius.
The moon was in Aquarius. Jupiter was in Aquarius.
She had the sun in Sagittarius. She was a talker.
She was philosophical.

Speaker 2 She was sort of, you know, she was unconventional. She was weird.
She was someone who did things differently. Right.

Speaker 2 So it makes sense that she, she's one of those that I feel like is in the situation, but is also kind of like, where else would I be?

Speaker 1 You know, like,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 2 Here I have found myself in Whitechapel. It is a long way from Kansas.

Speaker 1 But like,

Speaker 2 I'm doing the thing here.

Speaker 1 Because she originally in Sweden, I believe, she was the one who registered as a sex worker in Sweden so she could do it legally. Oh, shit.

Speaker 1 And she would have to like check in and get checked and stuff. So she did it like, yeah, and this is the job I'm doing.
That feels very Aquarius energy.

Speaker 1 Like I can do this and like people should be able to do it. And make it official.
It can start with like the world outlook. Yeah.
So it does seem like she's just kind of like, yeah, this is what I do.

Speaker 1 I'm owning it. Yeah.
Get me on the list. Like I'm going to do this legally.

Speaker 2 And what I also, you know, going back to that,

Speaker 2 to the sort of like the communication and the talking and then the silencing thing, like here's another example of

Speaker 2 another female archetype who has like a very ballsy chart. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, nature. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And who is it who stands up for herself and knows how to defend herself and knows how to protect herself?

Speaker 2 Like, sure, she is certainly a victim, not just of this murder, but like of the world and society and the circumstances. But she also was tough.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 In fact, on the on the night she died, one of the witnesses heard like one of the witnesses who saw her walking with a man or saw her talking with a man heard this other person say to her, you would say anything but your prayers.

Speaker 1 And like, and she laughed. Oh, I love that.
That's so funny. She literally heard it.
It's like she's she's so funny.

Speaker 2 I mean, not to mention she has my mom's birthday. Oh, yeah.
So, November 27th, 1843. My mom's not from 1843.

Speaker 1 You're like, exactly. Exactly.
She's exactly time and location. Yeah.

Speaker 2 No, but my mom is in November 27 Sag. So I know the energy.
I know the vibe.

Speaker 1 I know that energy.

Speaker 2 It is. My grandma used to say that when my mom was a little girl, she would like follow her from room to room talking, like go into the bathroom talking.
I love myself. My mom goes.

Speaker 1 She goes to the basement like anywhere my grandma was going my mom was following talking talking let me tell you a story yeah see so that really fits her yes yeah yeah you could say anything but your prayers yeah he's just like damn you're just talking about anything and everything yeah and she was also when she was found she had a flower she had flowers in her hand she had coins in her hand yeah she had a lot of things yeah

Speaker 2 but she was like in the process she was like doing things yeah she was like talking chatting doing things busy oh yeah she was not just like wandering down the streets Nope.

Speaker 2 You know, she was in the mix. She was in the mix.
For sure. She, and it wasn't even, you know, in for Whitechapel, it wasn't even that late.

Speaker 1 No, 1 a.m. I think it was.
She was found. Yeah.
I'm pretty sure. Yeah.
That's, I mean, that's just popping up at Whitechapel. That's the beginning of the night.
Yeah, it happened.

Speaker 1 That was the pregame. Yeah.
That's when she was found. So this was way before.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So in this case, she had her throat cut, but no additional mutilation happened.

Speaker 1 I think it was interrupted. I'm sure.
Well, and then you think about the timing. It's like maybe somebody was coming around the corner earlier.

Speaker 1 You know, it's too early for him to be out doing this, and he did it in kind of an open space, right?

Speaker 2 I 100%

Speaker 2 think that this was interrupted, yeah, because of what happens with the next one. Yep, he had a vision, he did.

Speaker 2 Um, and I think he had a story that he wanted to tell with this, oh, yeah, and this to me feels sort of like a oh shit, you know, like never got it.

Speaker 2 This didn't work out, this wasn't what I wanted, this isn't this isn't the vision I had. No, I have to keep moving.

Speaker 1 That's why I think he had a double event next. Yeah.
Because I think he was wanted to get it done.

Speaker 2 Yes. And this chart is interesting because it's, as I mentioned, it's the first one where Jupiter switches into Sagittarius.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Now, Jupiter is in its domicile in Sagittarius, which means that's where Jupiter loves to be the most.

Speaker 2 Our most recent reference of Jupiter in Sagittarius is when COVID started spreading.

Speaker 1 Oh, shit.

Speaker 1 I think my Jupiter is in Sagittarius.

Speaker 2 We'll discuss.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Oh, no. Can't wait to get to that.

Speaker 2 It's this sort of like it's it's bigger. It's enhancing.
It's amplifying. It's taking that energy.

Speaker 2 And at on this day on September 30th, Jupiter was making an exact opposition to Neptune, which is locked in with Pluto. It's that Neptune-Pluto signature, which is...

Speaker 1 in all of these charts.

Speaker 2 You know, that was, that's a very long-lasting signature because those planets move so slowly.

Speaker 2 So all of these charts, all of these death charts have that. Okay.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 Jupiter, which is the magnifying energy, was magnifying that signature of mystery, of murder, of sort of the intensity and the volume. Like it literally was turning up the volume on this.

Speaker 2 And I think that, and again, we're back to volume, we're back to speech, we're back to sort of vocalization.

Speaker 2 I think that Elizabeth Stride was very much sort of, I mean, they're all very wrong place, wrong time, but this is one where it's like, maybe we didn't have to have two that night.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think that he, I think there's, there could have just been one. Yeah.
But we have a casualty of a casualty.

Speaker 1 Like a missed opportunity in his eyes.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 So yeah, that's, that's our scene with, with this death chart, which is

Speaker 2 the same death chart because we don't have the exact time to the second or to the fourth victim,

Speaker 2 which is Catherine Eddie.

Speaker 1 Our girl, our girl who is

Speaker 1 getting talked about a lot recently. Yeah, supposedly, she had a shawl.
Supposedly, that's her shawl. It wasn't.
We don't think so.

Speaker 2 Well, guess who has a Gemini moon?

Speaker 2 Okay. Yeah.
So she is part of the signature. She's part of the story that we're telling with the Neptune and the Pluto and Gemini.

Speaker 1 Because Polly had one too, right?

Speaker 2 Yes. And that was the death chart, the first chart has a Gemini moon.

Speaker 2 So Catherine also was

Speaker 2 an Aries. She was born on April 14th, 1842.

Speaker 2 And she was born under a Pluto-sun conjunction. So when she was born, Pluto was in Aries, her son was in Aries, and we talked about Pluto being death, right?

Speaker 2 We talked about Pluto being this like mysterious underworld, intense force.

Speaker 2 But when I see something like that in a chart, I think that this is a legacy that lives on. To have your son connected with a force like Pluto.
Of course you're going to be remembered for how you die.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You know?

Speaker 1 Because it's life and death all in one house. Yes.

Speaker 2 And Aries is a fire sign. We have another firecracker here.
We have another feisty woman.

Speaker 1 Not going to put up with your shit. Not going to be silent.
She lets you do it immediately.

Speaker 2 She also has a temper.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she does.

Speaker 1 And the dude, I think the guy that she was with at the time or like hanging around with literally told her that night, like, be careful, don't become another victim of the White Chapel slasher or whatever they were calling him at that point.

Speaker 1 And she was like, oh, I'm not worried about that literally said like fuck that oh

Speaker 1 like she was just like nope don't care freaks me out

Speaker 2 yeah because when someone says something like that you don't want it to be prophetic no you don't want that to live off yeah yeah

Speaker 2 you definitely don't but yeah this is this is another strong fiery individual

Speaker 2 who is doing her thing, not taking any shit, knows how to defend herself, knows how to take care of herself,

Speaker 2 definitely would know how to stand up for herself.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That's a trigger for him for sure.
100%.

Speaker 1 The fact that all of the, I mean, we're on the fourth victim and they all have this in common so far. Yeah.
Yeah. Absolutely a trigger for him.

Speaker 2 Yes. And then this, you know, is so interesting to me because this is the case where we have her story living on, right?

Speaker 2 The shawl comes from this. Yep.
The kidney. Yep.
In what the next sort of incident that we'll talk about is comes from this chronologically.

Speaker 2 Then also, this is where there's graffiti on the wall that I think is incredibly compelling.

Speaker 2 And one of our characters, the captain, oh no, Sir Charles Warren.

Speaker 2 Sir Charles Warren, the head of the London Metropolitan Police,

Speaker 2 has it scrubbed before any crime scene photographs are taken.

Speaker 1 Interesting.

Speaker 2 So I don't have that text here, but I maybe

Speaker 2 we could also pull it up. But it's anti-Semitic surprise.
Yep.

Speaker 1 Yep. Surprise.
Spoiler alert. Crazy.

Speaker 2 But to me, the reason that all of these pieces are so interesting with this person, with this death case, with this death chart is the legacy bit of it.

Speaker 2 This is when, to me, our Jack the Ripper is being like, notice me.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Pay attention to me.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Throat cut,

Speaker 2 abdomen mutilated, left kidney removed

Speaker 2 uh parts of the uterus removed our first instance of facial mutilation right

Speaker 2 and this is someone who's not taking any shit no this is also someone who in their chart has that sun pluto conjunction of i'm going to be remembered for how i die yeah and i am going to tell a story that exists long after I am gone.

Speaker 1 You know, what's even weirder is she got arrested that night. And when they asked her to write her her name down, she wrote nothing.
Spooky. Isn't that weird? Oh, that's true.

Speaker 1 For like somebody who's going to be remembered for how they die, they wrote nothing as their name. And just like you're, like, you're so close to

Speaker 1 not being nothing, but to be

Speaker 1 removed. Removed from existence.
Yeah. Like, I hate that.
Isn't that so weird? Yeah. My arms are fully chilling so badly.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But she's something. She's something.
And we're still talking about her. And all of, I mean, so much evidence comes from this particular particular murder right

Speaker 1 not the shawl the alleged

Speaker 1 the alleged shawl

Speaker 1 but this one this one's also really intricate too like how he removed things like he took her kidney and he removed it from the renal capsule which is like a very thin lining to take and he did it like very delicately and again this is one of those things where she was killed in a place that was darker than dark like her particular place that she was killed i think um was it mitre square i believe or something.

Speaker 1 So she was right out in the open. She was and she was in an alleyway and it was like dark, dark, dark.
And she had just passed a police officer.

Speaker 1 She said something like, like, good evening, old cock or something to him. Like she said something like, she's really like.

Speaker 2 That's my girl.

Speaker 1 That's my Aries son, Gemini Moon girl. And she's just waltzing past a police officer and then he does it in an alleyway in the pitch blackness.
faster than you can imagine.

Speaker 1 And he's being so delicate to slice through a renal capsule to remove a kidney. Like on your toe.

Speaker 2 You have to know about the body.

Speaker 1 You'd have to know that was there. You'd have to know you need to be delicate with that.
You have to. Yeah.
And I think she had her uterus moved too.

Speaker 1 Like there were so many things here that he did so fast. Yeah.
And it's interesting because it was a partial removal. So it's like, did he not have time to finish it?

Speaker 1 I mean, he was doing a lot, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And the facial mutilation,

Speaker 2 you know, also, we have images of it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Also horrifying.

Speaker 2 Oh, it's also jump scares for me and my research.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's hardcore.

Speaker 1 It is. It is really intense.
And you wonder, too, with that one, because again, he's like escalating and because the other ones didn't have the extensive facial mutilation.

Speaker 1 It's like we go here and then to go from here, we obviously have somebody in between, but to go to Mary Kelly. It's like he was on that path.
He was on that path.

Speaker 1 We're just making them not a person anymore.

Speaker 1 And I think that was like the message here, was he was slowly making them not a person.

Speaker 1 Well, maybe that's really where the intestines thrown over the shoulder comes in with the second woman who was killed. It's like that's where he started.
Like, you're not a person.

Speaker 1 It's almost like animalistic. Yeah, because he makes it almost like a, like you said, like he's making it almost like a part of her clothing.
Right. You know, like, right.
Something strange.

Speaker 1 Like, let's just flip them over her shoulder because that's, and that's not something human. And then it just continues to escalate.
Yeah. That's why I think there is, there is some

Speaker 1 personal vendetta in connection to sex workers. Yeah, because it's a humiliation.

Speaker 1 This is making them slowly but surely not recognizable as human beings because that's how he saw them.

Speaker 1 But he just did it slowly as he went. Yes.
Which is so fucked up. Yes.

Speaker 2 And so what do you think about the graffiti that was here?

Speaker 1 That always confounded me.

Speaker 2 I feel like it was unrelated.

Speaker 1 I remember talking about that, and that was our consensus. I think it was unrelated.

Speaker 1 And I think that's also part of why Charles Warren got rid of it or ordered it to be washed off. Because I think he knew as well that it was unrelated, but that it would be connected.

Speaker 1 Because it's also like, would he really have had the time to do everything he did to mutilate her? And then again, in the pitch black, write that on the wall. Yeah.

Speaker 2 My initial instinct was that it was unrelated.

Speaker 2 But then the letter comes right after.

Speaker 2 So if we think of the letter,

Speaker 2 if we do say that that was an authentic communication, which I think it is.

Speaker 1 I feel like it's the from hell letter. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think the from hell letter is my favorite part of this whole story.

Speaker 1 I'm obsessed with the from hell letter.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's so spooky, girl. Code.

Speaker 1 I still have a letter from hell.

Speaker 1 It's terrifying.

Speaker 2 It's so terrifying. But the reason that I sort of paused on it, because it's anti-Semitic, it's like, like, what business, like, why are we throwing this, you know, subplot into the story?

Speaker 1 What does this have to do with this?

Speaker 2 Exactly. But then to have the letter right after, to me, there is this piece of communication that's happening.
And then going back to the astrology, that communication signature, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 That these women aren't talking, but I have something to say.

Speaker 2 And I want to be heard. I want to be seen.
Not for you to find out who I am.

Speaker 1 Or maybe he did.

Speaker 2 I mean, he really starts to get pretty.

Speaker 1 bold dicey pun intended. And then he just reaches out to the media.
It's like, that's

Speaker 1 tender.

Speaker 1 If that graffiti was there and he saw it and that sparked an idea. That became the place.
Like that was like, oh, let's do it here. Because then the communication started.

Speaker 1 So it's like he almost saw that and was like, wait, I can communicate.

Speaker 2 I can use that. That's interesting.

Speaker 1 Like I can communicate not just through this and what I'm doing. Because obviously what I'm doing, I'm communicating in some way, but people aren't getting it.
Like no one. They're not getting it.

Speaker 1 No, I'm not seeing the writing on the wall.

Speaker 1 And he literally is like, I'm seeing the writing on the wall. Maybe I should send a letter.
Maybe I should communicate with words. Right.
If this is here, you know.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And maybe also, because obviously he was paying attention to how the investigation was going.
Oh, yeah. So he also saw that the wall, that that was scrubbed off.

Speaker 2 So he's also thinking, oh, words matter.

Speaker 1 Yeah. They have meaning.
They have to be. They're going to take them seriously.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 These are, this is something that I can incorporate into

Speaker 2 this storytelling. Yeah.
Because that's, I mean, he's telling some sicko story here in this. And that's what he wants to convey.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 So yeah, this is, this one is really a notable one because of how much evidence, both real and alleged evidence, and then also missing evidence is coming out of it.

Speaker 2 And then the next thing that I have is the From Hell Letter. Yep.
So that's October 16th, 1888. And this is sent to George.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because he was a, yeah, Lusk, that's what it was.

Speaker 2 I tragically don't have a birthday for him other than that he was born in 1839 was the year he was born.

Speaker 2 So he is a builder and a decorator. Could you imagine that existing in Whitechapel?

Speaker 1 Honestly. And like he's a designer.
He's business decorating in the middle.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 He's got a dreary vibe. Yeah.
Yeah, you know. Edward Gorey-esque.

Speaker 2 The chairman of, but he becomes the chairman of the White Chapel Vigilance Vigilance Committee.

Speaker 2 So he is like, you know what? I got to take matters into my own hands.

Speaker 1 Neighborhood watch, like

Speaker 1 a watch. Yeah.
We love a neighborhood watch. We love it.

Speaker 2 And he receives this letter, this package, the parcel, if you will.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Truly.

Speaker 2 October 16th, 1888.

Speaker 2 That has the most iconic haunting letter ever.

Speaker 2 And also a kidney.

Speaker 1 And also a kidney. Fantastic.

Speaker 2 A little piece of a kidney.

Speaker 1 Fantastic. That's that right there.
I'm like, I just, don't see how you can't think that's authentic.

Speaker 2 Like, yeah. Well, they also tested the kidney and were able to determine it was human and it was female.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And it was likely from the left side, which is Catherine Etto's kidney was on the left side.

Speaker 1 Which is crazy that they could do that back then. I know.
Let's take a second.

Speaker 2 I know. I'm like, keep going.

Speaker 1 Right. Like, take a second look more.

Speaker 1 You can find this man. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You're doing great work.

Speaker 1 You're doing business media.

Speaker 1 Let's go.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So this letter is

Speaker 2 everything to me because it also, you know,

Speaker 2 we don't have, again, the exact time, but it arrived in the afternoon. So we were able to kind of play with the time a little bit between 3 and 6 p.m.

Speaker 2 So with that in mind, it's very possible that that signature, that Neptune-Pluto signature in Gemini could have been like distinctly at one of the big angles of this, right?

Speaker 2 I have it a little bit after 4 p.m. And that puts it at the, what's the point is called the IC, which is the base of your chart, which I literally refer to as your villain origin story.
Oh, damn.

Speaker 2 And that also would mean that the moon in Pisces is right on the ascendant. Pisces is ruled by Neptune, so it's creating mystery, right?

Speaker 2 It's continuing this, yes, this dreamy puzzle pieces, and it's also adding to the drama.

Speaker 2 It's something that I always think about, and that I think often gets overlooked with Pisces and Neptunian placements is that they have this sort of like glamour and mystique to them.

Speaker 2 So there was an aestheticism to it. There was a lot of intentionality about the presentation, the parsing of the kidney, the kidney being in a spirit.

Speaker 1 And the fact that he was saying he tried to eat some of it. So he was upping that like, I'm nasty.

Speaker 1 Like he was like, oh, also, I'm a cannibal. Yeah, right, right, right, right, right.

Speaker 1 And unless you didn't think that I was twisted. Were you scared? I'm also a cannibal.
So it's like he's upping it.

Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 this also, this chart also puts Mars right at the mid-heaven, Mars again being violence,

Speaker 1 war, knives,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 1 aggro things.

Speaker 2 So this, this from hell letter is truly from hell.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It is truly

Speaker 2 truly from the bowels of hell.

Speaker 1 Yeah, this is also like determination, right? So he's determined to make a name for himself when he sends this letter.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Yes. Yeah.
And it makes sense. Again, with the additional, like recognize me.
Oh, in addition with the, with the Hannibal-esque, like, I ate it, you know, with a fine canteen, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, like, that's the vibe. Like, he's getting theatrical.
He's... upping his auntie.
He's trying to be, he's trying the aesthetic of it all. He's like, I'm now a cannibal.

Speaker 1 It's like, he's, but he's laying that out.

Speaker 2 He's, oh, and I ate it.

Speaker 1 Also, I had a break. I fried it up and ate it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I fried it up. It was delicious.

Speaker 1 It was delicious. Here's the rest.
Yeah. For you.
Damn. For you.
Try it.

Speaker 2 Why do you think that he sent it to

Speaker 2 this like citizen?

Speaker 2 This vigilante citizen.

Speaker 1 I think because the police commissioner just wasn't getting it. And

Speaker 1 I mean, that's like the whole reason that the vigilante came to be is because the police commissioner wasn't really getting it. So he needed to start figuring this out.

Speaker 1 And I think whoever Jack the Ripper is recognized that and was like, oh, well, this guy's going to spread the good word that I'm a cannibal, that that I have this kidney, that I'm this like

Speaker 1 deviant man. Yeah.
You know, I think so too.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It's, it's so interesting to me, you know, the timing of it too.
It's two weeks after the last murder. And then we still have a ways to go.

Speaker 2 You know, it's kind of the halfway point between the two most gruesome and final murders.

Speaker 2 So what was going on? What was he doing? He was writing letters. He was eating kidney.
He was doing something with these organs. Yeah.
I think.

Speaker 1 Experiments, maybe.

Speaker 1 You wonder what he, because

Speaker 1 I also wonder, I'm like, Elizabeth Stride was supposed to be Catherine Eddoes. Yes.
Like, that's clear. Yes.
So it's like, did he always have five in mind? Was there always this, you know, extra?

Speaker 1 Or was it four? Or was it always supposed to be four? Is there some significance to four instead of five? Since I don't think he intentionally went for five.

Speaker 1 I think maybe that's why five went so off the fucking rails. That's why, like, I think maybe he initially wanted four.
And, because also that makes kind of the most sense with the way he escalates.

Speaker 1 If you take Elizabeth Stride out of it, right? It kind of is a weird. pause because she's a pause.

Speaker 1 She was an interruption. He didn't get to go.

Speaker 2 It was a mistake.

Speaker 1 It was an opsies. Like the intestines over the shoulder, like

Speaker 1 that's, that's escalation

Speaker 1 and then you go to catherine eddos and it's way more escalation there's the facial mutilation there's the removal of more organs there's lacerations everywhere i believe her um i think her genitals were like severely lacerated he went like really frenzied in that one and then he goes about a hundred steps higher with Mary Jane Kelly.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And it's like, I do wonder if it was supposed to be four.
And that they were looking at the significance of the five and everything, but there was always a significance of four, maybe.

Speaker 2 I wonder if he also, and like, you know, if we were to talk about,

Speaker 2 don't let me talk about ghosts because I always end up siding with the ghosts. Now, Jack the Ripper is not a ghost.

Speaker 2 So I'm not siding with him, but I also am wondering if maybe he really wanted to get caught before this, the final one.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 he was really also being tortured mentally.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because there is enough of a pause and there's enough of an outreach where he could also be just like losing his damn mind. I mean, clearly this is like a very unwell person.

Speaker 1 Well, there are so many suspects that did end up going into asylums at the time that everything abruptly stopped. So I think you could be onto something there.
Valid.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And it's kind of like, it's a cry for help.
And he's like, I'm a cannibal too.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm really, really bad. I really need help.
Like, I'm hating these organs. Yeah.
Like, someone,

Speaker 1 come find find me. Yeah.
It's like, I think there was like, we did a case of like the lipstick. The lipstick killer.
Yeah. And he literally wrote on the wall, like, for the love of God.

Speaker 1 Please find me or I won't stop. And it's, and it kind of feels

Speaker 1 similar in a way. Yeah.
It's like you could go either way with it where like he really went to lengths to not be caught. But then also that pause and then the frenzy at the end.

Speaker 1 You're like, what did happen? Well, I feel like there is like such a dichotomous nature to whoever this is. Absolutely.
If it's like, I want to get caught. I mean, no, I don't.

Speaker 2 Gemini?

Speaker 1 Gemini. Signature? Yeah.
I want to get caught. No, I don't.
The indecisive man. Gemini.
Probably. So many killers are.
They are. We'll see.
But so many rappers are too. So

Speaker 1 many podcasts.

Speaker 1 Exactly. I love a Gemini.
Who doesn't love a Gemini? Exactly.

Speaker 1 Thank you.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It's, you know, it also then makes me think that

Speaker 2 It's another point for that he could have done the graffiti though.

Speaker 1 Of like, maybe if I'm anti-Semitic, they'll pay attention yeah like i could i'll make myself the worst person i can possibly be an anti-semitic cannibal killer yeah that'll do it but then i also on like the flip side of it i do think he views these women as like subterranean yeah i don't think he views them as people that it's like as people people that he's like look i'm a bad guy i think he's like i'm not a bad guy like i'm taking out the trash I think that's literally how he views it as like, but maybe he can't decide.

Speaker 1 So like, why do you all even care? Maybe he can't decide though. Maybe it's, yes, they're trash and yes, I'm disposing of them and I'm a great guy because I'm, you know, taking them off the streets.

Speaker 1 And then on the flip side of that, maybe he's also like, but I'm a killer and I ate these kidneys and I'm doing all these fucked up things and I can't stop myself. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. That letter definitely feels more just like, look how twisted I am.

Speaker 1 You know, kooky. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And you wonder if like he started this with that like, because I, there's that personal thing that I feel is there that like somebody in his life made him

Speaker 1 the mother or the mother role. Yeah, like somebody in his life, like a wife, a girlfriend, a mother, like some woman in his life made him hate, like in his mind, made him hate these women.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And I wonder if he started with Polly thinking like, this is my like journey that I'm going to take. I'm going to get this out.
I'm going to, I'm going to teach these women a lesson kind of thing.

Speaker 1 And then he saw, and I think to him, he was like, well, no one will give a shit. because who gives a shit about these women in his mind?

Speaker 1 And then he saw that people did give a shit about this and that it was causing such a stir and he slowly started falling into that like wait a second like getting that ego and getting that like recognized or scared to me so that now i'm like was he like he was we know he's a little bitch but it's like was he even more of a little bitch than we thought he was i mean probably he was seeing everybody like suddenly fearing him and being like jack the ripper you know for the first time and all of a sudden he's like fuck like i have power i didn't have before and that's why it kept escalating well and you think about the circumstances of of white chapel and living there at the time, and nobody really had power.

Speaker 1 Nobody had power was hard.

Speaker 1 Exactly. So now he finally has it.
Yeah, he's like, he's got everybody like that.

Speaker 2 But it's in the shadows, which is also then going back to that signature of Neptune and Pluto that we have in all of these murders. It's like

Speaker 2 Pluto is also power, right? It's, it is power. So yeah, you have power, but nobody knows who the fuck you are.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And you're a little bitch.

Speaker 1 So do you have power? Like, do you leave it? Nobody even knows who you are. And you're attacking people in like the dead of night on

Speaker 1 dark street corners. And immediately cutting their throat.
And immediately cutting their throat. It's like, so you, you're a little bitch.
A little bit. At the end of the day, I'll be.
It's true.

Speaker 2 Jack the Ripper is a little bitch.

Speaker 1 He is a little bit. You heard it here first.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think it is important to call it like it is because

Speaker 2 this, you know, he has become so mythological

Speaker 2 and like he's gotten like sexy.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, because like people

Speaker 1 turn him into this like it's a supernatural figure that's just like looming around with a cape and a top hat, right? And there's like a sex worker, sex energy.

Speaker 1 I don't think he was rolling around with like a cape and a top hat.

Speaker 1 Like, I don't think, because also he would stay, and I think actually, I think on the Tobias episode, he pointed this out, he would stick out like a sore thumb in like Jessica walking around in a fucking cape.

Speaker 1 That's so funny. They'd be like, it's probably that weird guy.
Yeah, they'd be like, it's probably that fucking weird guy over there in the cape. They'd be like, huh, what's going to be?

Speaker 1 Maybe this rich guy that's walking in here.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's like, no, I think he probably looked like

Speaker 2 a scubby little

Speaker 1 dirty, like, just like everyone else there. Yeah.
So it's like, it's so weird how it's become like this sexualized version of him of like, look at this like caped figure.

Speaker 1 And it's like, but that's like the Neptune Scorpio. Exactly.

Speaker 1 Think of it. Like somebody sent us this from, it's like a little, like the visitor's guide that you get on the tour in Whitechapel.
And even there, like silhouette. He's like this big

Speaker 1 figure. He's like a big silhouette.
And it's like, that's not what he looks like. I know it.
I know we will see. Drum tiny.
We will not see a top hat on that man.

Speaker 1 If he was to materialize in front of us right now, no top hat to be seen. Yeah.
No cape to be seen.

Speaker 2 Dude, I hope he does not materialize. I hope you don't either.
You know what? Show yourself.

Speaker 1 Bring it.

Speaker 2 Show yourself. Let's go right now.
I'll stay somewhere later. You want some more outspoken women?

Speaker 1 We're right here. We'll outnumber you.
Yeah. It's not white.

Speaker 1 We have Outsides New England and we we have a Mikey in here, so we're going to kick your ass. Mikey's like, yeah.

Speaker 1 He's like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 Mikey's like, I'm going to go hold now.

Speaker 1 I'm Canadian.

Speaker 1 I'm not ready for this.

Speaker 2 It's so funny. I love it.
So nobody catches him. No.

Speaker 1 And fortunately,

Speaker 1 this is just a funny one, but there was a Saucy Jack. Let her do it.
Do you remember the Saucy Jack? Saucy Jack.

Speaker 1 And that wasn't real though it was an interesting one though because i think that one mentioned the double event so it was so i remember that being always a little iffy on the on the phone because it wasn't released that there was a double event yet when it was written so that's an interesting one but it also could have just been somebody who like lived in that particular area yeah like somebody spreads you know but yeah but you know or one of these like silly police officers who yeah let's send a letter to the police they were kookies they were kooky police officers and there wasn't a lot going on aside from this which you would think this would be enough but yeah it was just a bunch of some entertainment.

Speaker 2 It was a lot of the same, a lot of the same misery.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 2 same old, same old.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 So, Mary Jane Kelly.

Speaker 2 She is the youngest of the victims.

Speaker 2 She was 25 when she died. We know her birth year.
She was born in 1863. Her situation is very different than all the others.
She is young. She was murdered indoors.

Speaker 1 She was murdered in her home.

Speaker 2 Very upsetting.

Speaker 2 In the room she was renting. um she also was

Speaker 1 completely like eviscerated

Speaker 2 yeah i mean she she evaporated she wasn't even she yeah can there was nothing

Speaker 1 you can't make out a human form in the crime scene photo yeah i mean and like pieces of her were placed in different places in the room yeah her face was hacked apart like her thighs are you can see just bone yeah he like hacked it right to the bone like i can't imagine how long this took that's literally

Speaker 1 over two hours it had to have taken so long and how did he not

Speaker 1 calm in the middle of that you know what i mean like how are you frenzied for two hours i think almost i think he was frenzied

Speaker 1 see i think he was frenzied in the beginning and i think because it it takes a lot to cut into a person of course like it just does there's a lot there's a different layers of a human being take on layers of skin muscle it's not as easy as bone yeah you know and i think he was frenzied and i think he was frenzied when he went at her face i think he was frenzied when he went like at the when he was hacking away and when he killed her and then i think he had a moment of like stopping for a second breathing and let me say and then meticulously cutting off her breasts chopping away at her thighs like i think he took a breath and then got meticulous about it it's also possible um that he thought he was gonna get found yeah in this process so he was just doing doing the most he was literally buying time being like, well, I guess I'll just keep going because no one's coming yet.

Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I wasn't considering that

Speaker 2 in the pro in preparing these charts, but as we've talked about it, you know, like I think that it

Speaker 2 taking this long of time, and you could argue, well, he was indoors, so like he had the luxury of time. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But there was still like coming and going. Oh, yeah.
And this was also happening like, you know, in the early hours. Yeah.
So there was some movement.

Speaker 1 People were going to leave for work and

Speaker 1 get out to do.

Speaker 2 This was happening at like, you know, 5 a.m.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Sun was starting to come up. You know, it's not the middle of winter yet, right? We still have a sun that rises pretty early.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Right.
That's true. Yeah.
He also, I think he,

Speaker 1 I'm pretty sure there was like a fireplace in the room. And I think he like made the fire like blazing too.
Yes. Like the fire was blazing.
So it's like, come look in here.

Speaker 1 So I almost think he was drawing attention to it, which he could, that could be drawing attention to him while he's in there or drawing attention to the scene after the fact.

Speaker 1 Yeah, maybe it was one of the last things. Yeah, but it's definitely drawing attention.
That was a blazing fire. Yes.
That she definitely didn't set.

Speaker 2 So this is the chart where this is the only murder that takes place during Scorpio season. And Scorpio season is that veil between world season.
Halloween occurs during Scorpio season.

Speaker 2 It's end of October into into November.

Speaker 2 And we've talked about Scorpio energy represented in the other planets, but it's, you know, it's that life and death and power and intensity.

Speaker 2 So this Scorpio season sort of backdrop here, I think, gives it this really eerie, dark, psychological tone.

Speaker 2 We also have

Speaker 2 the sun in the same place.

Speaker 2 where Jupiter and Mars were when this whole thing started. So there is this sort of like

Speaker 1 this,

Speaker 2 this conclusion that's happening here too.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I wrote a note, I'm seeing crazy Jupiter. So Jupiter now is, you know, it's at 10 degrees of Sagittarius.
And we talked about this sort of, you know, this amplification and this magnification.

Speaker 2 And I think that that, that growth and that dynamism that was happening here in terms of the way that he was doing and the extent of the violence was also him getting crazier. I mean, obviously.

Speaker 2 But the reason that I bring that up is because something is changing in him too. You know what I mean? It's not just like, oh, I'm learning how to do this and I like what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 So let me like up the ante for the next one. It's also like he is absolutely unraveling.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Like, where do you go from here? Well, and also Sagittarius is known to like have a sense of escapism, right? And then Jupiter is going to expand that.

Speaker 1 So maybe he's trying to escape from himself. And that's why he wants to get caught.

Speaker 2 He wants to get caught.

Speaker 1 he 100 like i need to get out

Speaker 1 of his time here he was not frenzied through this whole thing because he placed like organs under her head he like placed some under her legs so like he was he's just going nuts scene like he was and like with this one too which is interesting he took her heart

Speaker 1 like just her heart took it from the screen never found it took it from the scene they never found her heart and for her for the organ to be the heart that he takes this time, that's so significant.

Speaker 1 Like that's their significance. What do you think about that? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, it's interesting. I mean, in medical astrology, the heart is associated with Leo.

Speaker 2 Saturn is in Leo in this chart. In all of these, we had Saturn and Leo.
And there is this very much of, you know, this energy of ego and sort of making your mark.

Speaker 2 I mean, I think it's very performative. I think it's very much about sort of like, and now I take your heart, which is your life force.
Your life force. And like, this is the testament of like

Speaker 2 taking something from you that is like also symbolic of love and symbolic of affection and connection.

Speaker 1 But it's like, I'm taking everything away from you.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 To take your heart is to take your ability to be alive.

Speaker 1 Yeah, your vitality. Makes you everything.

Speaker 2 Yes. Like take what makes you human.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 this, I suppose, could go, because I'm thinking about it and I'm like, okay, if this is like a a medical person, which it is, which I believe it is, but I wonder too, like at that time, what they considered the like

Speaker 1 humanity of you, your brain or your heart. Yes.
And to me, it feels like maybe, like, I think now they look at it more like your brain is probably what makes you human.

Speaker 1 When you're brain dead, nothing else can really happen.

Speaker 1 But back then, I wonder if it was a little more like romanticized, where it's like the heart is the thing that makes you human.

Speaker 1 And like in the beginning, we were saying how like he looks at these women, I think, as subterranean, not human. And I think he was making sure that everyone else saw them that way.

Speaker 1 This is his like magnum opus of like, see, she doesn't even have a heart. She's not even a human.
Like, that's what makes you love. That's what makes you kind.
That's what makes you a good person.

Speaker 1 And I took it. She doesn't even have that.
Yeah. Like, if it's so much.
She's not worth loving. She's not worth remembering.
She doesn't even have a heart. In his mind, which means

Speaker 2 again. Yeah, it's also very much sort of like, I I am in charge of you.
Yep. I own you.

Speaker 1 I have this now, and I always will. Yeah.
And I wonder if it's like that.

Speaker 1 And that makes me think too, that whoever it was that he was thinking of when he killed these women was in his mind cruel and unloving,

Speaker 1 which could be a mother, could be a wife, could be a, I mean, it could be his sister. It could be anybody that he saw as this person that was close to him.
It was a prominent female for sure.

Speaker 1 For sure. Yeah.
Yeah. I think, I think you're definitely onto something with that.

Speaker 2 The moon was also in Capricorn on this night. That's hard.
November 9th, 1988. That's way harsh to me.
Well, the moon in Capricorn, and I don't want to,

Speaker 2 for anyone who has a moon in Capricorn who's listening, you are not Jack the Ripper, so don't personalize this.

Speaker 2 This is about him,

Speaker 1 not you.

Speaker 2 But the moon is considered to be in a very compromised place. in Capricorn.

Speaker 2 Capricorn, you know, the moon represents the mother, and the moon is

Speaker 2 how we take care of ourselves, how we're taken care of. It's in its domicile.
It's in its home base in the sign of cancer. It's very nurturing, loving, maternal, supportive.

Speaker 2 Capricorn, its opposite sign, which was also connected to the south node of past lives. So another indication that this is something historic that he's replaying here.

Speaker 2 But the moon in Capricorn is like mommy issues 101.

Speaker 1 Because that's like, this man has mommy issues. He absolutely does.
That's like your mom mom being your biggest critic. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And of course, you know, we still have,

Speaker 1 and also you being heartless, literally, too, about your mom.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Because Capricorn is ruled by Saturn and it is,

Speaker 2 it's, it does not have time for emotions. No.
It does not want to be sweet. and tender.

Speaker 2 It wants to.

Speaker 1 It's rules. It's rules.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It does not.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's by the book it's by the book which is also like maybe that's why his like mom probably was somebody who was against sex work it was wrong it was against the book like in her mind

Speaker 2 and maybe that's why he felt i think it could be that or it could be i mean in astrology and all spirituality opposites are the same you know to be so against sex work is to be a sex worker right it's like it it ultimately like sort of hits its own tail right

Speaker 2 and i think that a moon in capricorn you know if we were to do this sort of psychological analysis of it, it's it's feeling like you weren't loved.

Speaker 2 So to me, this would indicate more of maybe a mother who was out, you know, using

Speaker 2 her body with a lot of men, doing something that, you know, was neglectful to her children, to this

Speaker 1 Jack the Ripper. It does feel that way.

Speaker 2 Like just not

Speaker 2 connected. And I'm saying using her body kind of almost in a channeling sort of way of as I'm thinking of how he would be perceiving it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 So then to mutilate these bodies and to rip them apart and to take apart the body

Speaker 1 value that you have. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's like I'm deconstructing this. Who is my mother?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Who is the body of my mother?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I

Speaker 1 100% think that that is what it is, that his mother was likely a sex worker and was not around or something of that.

Speaker 1 Because I mean, you look at a lot of, unfortunately, the Canonical Five especially, or any of the ones that aren't the Canonical Five, but have been mentioned in the Whitechapel murder file, they have a sim, like there's a sad path of like,

Speaker 1 a lot of them will have kids and they'll do their best to try to

Speaker 1 be there, but then they end up on the streets again and having to do this and they end up like not seeing their kids or they do see their kids and they have these like strained relationships, but they're always trying to get back to that like mother role of like being there.

Speaker 1 And it's just not attainable. So it is a thing that happened so often there and so often in Whitechapel in that time period.
And so much so that it's rooted in the history of it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it wouldn't be shocking that this could be a younger guy like in his 20s, you know, who had a mother or has a mother who was going through a similar thing and could still be on the streets right now doing that.

Speaker 1 Like, who knows?

Speaker 2 And we haven't brought up the fact that all of these women are also alcoholics.

Speaker 1 All of them. And they all have nicknames like associated with their alcoholism.

Speaker 2 Sometimes even on the nights of their deaths, you know, many of them are drunk. Many of them were seen drunk or in jail

Speaker 1 because they were drunk that night.

Speaker 2 In this time and in this place, it's like those lifestyles coexist. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 It's difficult to get out of the situation when you also are. struggling with addiction.

Speaker 2 And then you also have to sort of work in a field that allows you to have and enables your addiction. And, you know, to addiction, right?

Speaker 2 And addiction is going to make you very, very difficult for you to be a good mom. Yeah.
It's very hard to be present for your kid. And I'm sure that it's even worse than that.

Speaker 2 I'm sure that this Jack the Ripper was also probably like sexually abused and could have been sexually abused by his mother, you know?

Speaker 2 I'm sure it's the darkest and most horrific version of the story because these are the darkest and most horrific ways of expressing that, you you know, and processing that pain.

Speaker 1 And wasn't the,

Speaker 1 I think the kidney, the from hell kidney, was in some sort of

Speaker 2 spirit. So it's like,

Speaker 1 was that?

Speaker 2 That's true. I mean, that's also another preserving it.

Speaker 1 Preserving it.

Speaker 1 You'll always be part of this. Like, alcohol is part of this whole thing.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Alcohol has to be part of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It really does. I think we're solving it, guys.

Speaker 2 We are. We're in process.

Speaker 1 We're figuring this out.

Speaker 2 So that's our, that's, that's our last Spitfire lady. Yes.

Speaker 2 Of which they were all, we remember them all. We have names for them all, which is pretty interesting.
And,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 1 cool, I guess.

Speaker 1 Astrology of it. Yeah.
And the astrology just makes so much sense. Yeah.
It really does. And it's

Speaker 1 it really is that whole like there are no coincidences. Yeah.
The odds of most of this stuff is astronomical.

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Speaker 2 So then we get into our funny cast of characters.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Right.

Speaker 2 We have

Speaker 2 Sir Charles Warren.

Speaker 1 Sir Charles Warren.

Speaker 2 The head of the London Metropolitan Police. Came in in that role in 1886,

Speaker 1 left in 1888. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Not long.

Speaker 2 Not long.

Speaker 2 So he was

Speaker 2 an Aquarius sun

Speaker 2 and an Aries moon.

Speaker 2 And the first thing that I jotted down when I was looking at his chart was that, oh, he hates being told what to do.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 And he has a temper and he looks out for himself. And he is not an easy person to collaborate with.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 you know, we have some other placements as well that are interesting here. He was, he has a Saturn in Sagittarius.

Speaker 2 He has his Jupiter in Scorpio, which means his Jupiter return was happening during this time.

Speaker 1 So much Scorpio image. Yeah, I know, damn.
And like coinciding with Jupiter.

Speaker 2 He also, the first murder, which is sort of, you know, the birth chart of these murders, coincided with his south node of fate and destiny.

Speaker 2 So there was this between having a Jupiter return in Scorpio, which is,

Speaker 2 you know, it happens every 12 years, and it's supposed to be a very auspicious time. We typically consider it this time of like luck and abundance and good things coming in.

Speaker 2 There were a lot of things that were happening all at the same time.

Speaker 2 Bloody Sunday happened just a year before, November 13th, 1887, which, you know, he was sort of the, he called for that police brutality that was taking place then.

Speaker 2 So he had previously been thought of as this sort of like more progressive guy.

Speaker 2 He was an archaeologist. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He was an academic.

Speaker 2 And then suddenly he becomes this like tough guy.

Speaker 1 Like military.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And

Speaker 2 that's not like what his skills were.

Speaker 2 That's not what he was good at. So it's almost like, and this happens in astrology, it's like, if you're going down the wrong path, the universe is going to like push you back.

Speaker 2 He ended up going back into more academic work.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And into better suited.

Speaker 1 Better suited for sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I thought that that was so interesting because he was, you know, he's someone who was kind of like, he wasn't in, he wasn't doing the right kind of work for

Speaker 2 being this Aquarius son of like, hold on, let's go and explore Palestine and think about like these different regions of the world.

Speaker 2 The first picture that you see when you Google him is like him, you know, in some exotic location.

Speaker 1 It's true, right? With like the colonial whole apparel on. And that's honestly the vibe that he gives anyways.
When you look at a picture of him, you're like, what are you doing?

Speaker 1 What are you doing here? What are you doing? What are you doing?

Speaker 1 You got a big old mustache. What are you doing? Yeah.
Yes. Yes.

Speaker 1 Go dig up some stuff. Yeah.
Yes. And not this because you're not going to be able to do that.
You're not working.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's right.

Speaker 1 Him having that graffiti cleaned off. before they could even come and take a picture of it right there.

Speaker 2 He was like, oh, come on.

Speaker 1 This is a guy.

Speaker 1 Hey, don't say that.

Speaker 1 Come on. Yeah, you got to keep, you got to take a picture of it, my guy.
Like, he missed.

Speaker 2 That's not how a crime scene works.

Speaker 1 And he didn't even realize that that was gonna make him look bad. Right.
Like, he wasn't even thinking that way because he's just not good at it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, this doesn't work.

Speaker 2 This was not his skill set. No.
So he resigned

Speaker 2 literally on the day of the last murder.

Speaker 1 Yep. Wow.

Speaker 2 Which is

Speaker 2 another tank, another, there are no coincidences. It's very interesting.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But, you know, with having the head of the police department resigning at this time, I think it also speaks to just like the chaos and the kookiness of the investigation at this point.

Speaker 1 He's just like, you know what? It's like you're all the way into it. You're not doing it anymore.

Speaker 1 You're so deep.

Speaker 1 And now somebody else just has to take this on from this.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And that also, it's like the looking out for yourself thing.
Like, my guy, like,

Speaker 2 you're really in the thick of like something horrible happening in this community. Right.
And you're like, you know what? I don't want the criticism. Yeah.
He's like, you know what?

Speaker 1 I can't take this. I've had enough.
It's a good thing. Every man for himself.

Speaker 2 Every man for himself. That's enough bossing me around.

Speaker 1 I don't like it.

Speaker 2 Do it yourself.

Speaker 1 Figure it out. I'm going back to digging up bones.
Yeah, he said, no. I don't want to deal with this anymore.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And ultimately, like, better for him.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But it's interesting that that was his Jupiter return. You know, his Jupiter return was like, I'm in the wrong place.
I'm in the wrong field. Yeah.
And for us, that kind of like.

Speaker 1 sucks. Thanks a lot.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because his self-actualization journey means that we don't know who Jack the Ripper is.

Speaker 2 And probably if we had somebody who was like a little more locked in, like some of these, some of the people who came in later on.

Speaker 1 A little more destined to do this. Exactly.

Speaker 2 A little more of your passion. Right.
Yeah. A little more of your mission, your Dharma, if you will.

Speaker 1 What you're good at. Go with your skill set.

Speaker 2 And then we have Donald Swanson.

Speaker 2 So he was in charge of overseeing the Jack Ripper murders.

Speaker 2 Him and Robert Anderson, who is like probably the funniest character here.

Speaker 1 I love it.

Speaker 2 Out to lunch.

Speaker 1 Yeah, literally. He was in Switzerland for most of the murders.
Yeah. And then he nodded on vacation again.

Speaker 1 And then he was like,

Speaker 1 I have one more family vacation. He's like, I have a little more PTO.
I was just going to say,

Speaker 1 he's like, I'll be utilizing that. He's like, they said if I don't use it, I'll run it out.
So I'm going to go. I'll be in Sweden.
At the end of the year, right back.

Speaker 1 Damn.

Speaker 2 So the two of them together, I sort of see them like, and they work together. They were sort of passing the torch back and forth when Robert Anderson was out.

Speaker 2 When when he is out of office on right when donald swanson was coming in so donald swanson a leo son a capricorn moon so robert anderson a gemini son and a virgo moon we've seen so it's that reverse of something that we've already started to see twice yes gemini and Virgo.

Speaker 2 So what's kind of interesting, because I was musing on this one in particular, where I was like, okay, well, we know that this is, these are important placements for the murders chart, right?

Speaker 2 The chart of the murder,

Speaker 2 Polly Nichols' chart, she was the reverse of it. So what does it mean? He also had Neptune and Pluto directly on his son.

Speaker 2 So that signature that we're tracking through all of this, like he was being activated. I'm like, is he the murderer?

Speaker 1 Oh, God. That's why he keeps dipping to Sweden.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But he does something interesting in the case, which is that he

Speaker 2 obviously he and Swanson feel

Speaker 2 a shame for not finding him. So they are the ones who bring in Aaron.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 They're the ones who start talking about Polish Jews.

Speaker 1 Well, it must be. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And that whole narrative really begins under their watch. Yep.

Speaker 2 And to me, you know, when we go back to the story of communication and storytelling, which is the signature of this chart and this whole narrative, it's like, this is you tell a story, right?

Speaker 2 You find a scapegoat. Yeah.
Also. Yeah.
And this is not to say that, you know, I don't want to completely rule out Aaron Kaminsky. Is that his name?

Speaker 1 Kosminski. Kosminski.

Speaker 2 Because there are some really interesting things we have to look at in history. There is, for sure.
And some really like, like you're our heads are going to explode when we see history.

Speaker 1 Oh, I bet. I'm scared.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And the relationship between Robert Anderson's chart and his his chart.

Speaker 1 Hmm.

Speaker 2 So a little spoiler, a little tease, if you will, of what could come. But he establishes him.
And then Swanson doubles down on it and writes in like the margins of like, it was him.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 like his deathbed. Yeah.
Right. Like, he did it.
He did it. And I think it's, is it Swanson? Swanson took.

Speaker 1 really

Speaker 1 like detailed, intricate like research notes in this case.

Speaker 2 And he is a and he is a moon in Capricorn.

Speaker 1 Oh, so he is spectacular.

Speaker 1 So that's why.

Speaker 2 A Leo's son, Capricorn moon.

Speaker 1 He was kind of destined for his role

Speaker 1 in this also. Yes.

Speaker 2 He was very serious.

Speaker 2 He was very serious about his work, his job. He was very serious about picking up the slack, I think, for Robert Anderson.

Speaker 2 But ultimately was

Speaker 2 there were details that he got twisted at the end. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He was also...

Speaker 2 Well, he was also the person who, I wrote it here in my notes. He believed it to be Kosminski, but the death details that he has around him don't add up.

Speaker 2 When he says that it's Kosminski, he already, and he's like, but Kosminski died a long time ago.

Speaker 2 He hadn't died yet. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He was conflating him.

Speaker 2 So he was conflating him with another Polish Jew in the area whose name was Aaron David Cohen, potentially, but then Cohen was sort of the anglicized version of a more Polish name.

Speaker 2 And at some point their files were actually

Speaker 1 together.

Speaker 1 Become one.

Speaker 2 Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 With Aaron's collagen,

Speaker 2 Gemini. Yeah.

Speaker 1 More Gemini energy. Gemini is the twins, right?

Speaker 2 So there was this sort of like conflating, and he's, we're, we're looking to these two people to sort of be like, well, you have all these notes.

Speaker 2 What do you think, guys? Like, what's your findings?

Speaker 2 And they can't even get the names right for these people.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And to me, then this also goes back to the undercurrent of the sort of subplot of the anti-Semitism in Whitechapel.

Speaker 2 And this makes that graffiti to me really important as a detail of just even time and place. Oh, for sure.
Where we have anti-Semitism here in this community and it's building.

Speaker 2 And we also, we all know where things go in Europe. Exactly.

Speaker 1 Not very long after this, right?

Speaker 2 So it's an important direction things are moving in.

Speaker 2 And then we have an unsolved case, and we have

Speaker 2 these immigrants in the community who are also

Speaker 2 going into assane asylums. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Maybe for good reasons, maybe for medium reasons, but whatever it is, it's very easy to be like, it was them. Yeah.
And they're dead and locked up.

Speaker 1 And now it's all worried. Case.

Speaker 1 Nobody's talking about it.

Speaker 1 Nobody else talks about it anymore. You can all sleep soundly.
Yes. And that happens now.
I mean, that happens now where police will rush.

Speaker 1 And it happens less luckily now, but like these big cases will happen and they'll rush to pin it on someone. West Memphis 3 is a key one.
Yeah. Where he said himself, stand back for those stars.

Speaker 1 God, we should do those stars for sure. Where it was like three eight-year-olds who got murdered.
So of course the community is up in arms, wants this solved, wants to find out who did it.

Speaker 1 They found the first three kids they could pin it on and were like, so it's fine. They did it.
Don't worry about it. There's another long weirdo.

Speaker 2 Is Is this the Damian Eccles? Yes.

Speaker 1 That story is crazy. And the police chief, they asked him, he had zero evidence to arrest them.
And he was also at a press conference.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the satanic people and lies and like false testimony.

Speaker 1 They literally asked him on a scale of zero to 10, how tight is your case? And he said, 11. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And it's like he didn't have a shred of evidence against these kids. No physical evidence whatsoever.

Speaker 1 Sometimes police departments feel like they need to put out that, like, we are so confident about this. So everyone else should be.

Speaker 1 And it's, it's so, stop talking about it. Yeah.
In fact, we did

Speaker 1 have any more questions. Richard Speck, we just

Speaker 1 covered that case. They had nothing.
They had no leads, absolutely not a shred of evidence, but they came out to the people in the press and said, we're super confident that

Speaker 1 we have so many leads, leads up the butt. We are, we know what we're doing.

Speaker 1 Because it's embarrassing

Speaker 2 for the police. You know, there's a lot of

Speaker 1 it's your job. Yeah.
It's embarrassing. And you have to, and the public can build to a crescendo of a lot of

Speaker 1 there's not a lot of understanding, there's not a lot of room for that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so I think that was part of this: they were like, It's fine, he's in an asylum, he's who you thought he was, he's an immigrant.

Speaker 1 Didn't we all know that? Like that kind of thing. So it just pleases everybody.
Like, shut up, it's fine. We did our job.
We figured out who the bad guy was. Like, the end.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So maybe let's look at Aaron's chart.

Speaker 1 We need to, I'm so excited. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And to have our brain rocked.

Speaker 2 Especially because Aaron is a Virgo son, Gemini moon.

Speaker 2 And that is

Speaker 2 what Polly was. Whoa.
And where everything

Speaker 2 the sun and moon were at the first murder.

Speaker 1 Whoa.

Speaker 1 That.

Speaker 1 Hello? Wow. Hello.
Wow. That's damn.
That's fucking wild. Damn.
Okay, tell us more.

Speaker 2 What else could I say?

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 that's it. You're like, I don't need it.
Just clothes.

Speaker 2 These clothes. You don't need the mitochondria.
No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1 I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2 So, you know, it's interesting because obviously he has a very important, he was born September 11th. Maybe a tank.
I don't know. September 11th, 1865,

Speaker 2 in somewhere I can't pronounce Poland.

Speaker 2 Klodawa, Poland. There you go.
Bear with me.

Speaker 2 And he, I wrote, basically, I just wrote all over this, has the same sun and moon as Molly Nichols and the same sun and moon as the birth chart for her death and for the first murder.

Speaker 1 That's so weird. So

Speaker 1 what?

Speaker 1 Yeah, like, what does that mean? What does that mean?

Speaker 2 Again, that's crazy coincidental. He also had Jupiter in Sagittarius

Speaker 2 and Jupiter at the last murder when we said that Jupiter and Sagittarius was that big crazy energy.

Speaker 2 It was exact to his the exact degree exact degree to exactly

Speaker 1 damn and there's 30 degrees in each yeah zero to 29.

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 2 that's weird i'm just like that's weird and not only that but remember a gemini moon and especially his is it eight degrees it was exactly conjunct the neptune pluto signature yep that is this distinctive signature of so he is fully like it's like he locks in yeah those puzzle pieces that just, yeah, he just locks in.

Speaker 2 He locks in.

Speaker 2 And the person who

Speaker 1 the ripper Aaron?

Speaker 1 The person who

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 2 The person who accused him, Anderson, right?

Speaker 1 Anderson was the one who did it. First, I think came up with it.
And then Swanson kind of outed him.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Swanson wrote it in the margin.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he was like, it was him. He's like, hell yeah.
Yeah. Kosminski.
He was hella brother.

Speaker 2 So he, remember, he is the reverse of that. Right.

Speaker 2 So he also it's like they're these mirror images so they're sort of circling each other like so entwined and so entwined that's pretty wild so it's really interesting to me yeah because so he's a very easy scapegoat right let's

Speaker 2 let's hold how the chart shows up as something significant that we can't ignore and then also recognize that he was nonviolent he matches the description of somebody who could do this because he was a mentally ill local man, but he did not have a history of any, you know, he does not have a history of violence towards women.

Speaker 2 He doesn't have the history of violence in general.

Speaker 2 He

Speaker 2 was very frail. One of the issues that one of his mental illness expressions was he refused to eat.
So there's reports of him weighing like 98 pounds. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He's not going to be frenzied for two hours in a room. He couldn't do it.
There's no way.

Speaker 1 And he was, I think he was a barber at one point, which back then barbers did have anatomical knowledge. To that degree, though.
To that degree.

Speaker 2 And when you add the frailty in it, he also, I, well, here's another piece of the communication is that he basically only spoke Yiddish.

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 2 He did not speak English.

Speaker 1 He would not be able to write those letters.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And or the communication from them.

Speaker 2 These ladies to go into dark alleys with them.

Speaker 1 Yeah, right.

Speaker 2 That's true. But that's another communication narrative of this, which is Gemini.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 So it's interesting because we have this person who, you know, is kind of a perfect storm for someone that we can

Speaker 1 pin it on.

Speaker 2 Right. But then we also have this shawl that keeps coming back, like the New York Times article about astrology not being real keeps coming back.

Speaker 2 This shawl and this evidence, which I know we put your insert in here already. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But the fact that, like, this, we can't seem to divorce.

Speaker 1 We can't get away from it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 This suspect from the, from this murder. And, but my, in my heart, like, it's not him.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It just doesn't make sense.
I think it's because he's the one. I think Swanson putting that little footnote in there and it being such like a weird little like, it was him.
Right.

Speaker 1 I think that was the thing that just like you can like hang a hat on that really easily, you know what I mean? Cause that's the one that like endures as the name. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But the fact that it was conflated with another name, first of all, they didn't even know who they were talking about there. So we don't even know if he meant this Kosminski.

Speaker 1 He could have meant the other guy in time.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and they were like really old and like writing memoirs. And they were like,

Speaker 1 oh, we'll give you

Speaker 1 the big ending by the book. There's a couple errands in there.
Why not? Well, maybe the whole

Speaker 1 him fitting so perfectly into the puzzle piece is just, you're going to be a part of this forever.

Speaker 1 Even if you're not the person your name is going to be associated.

Speaker 1 That is your destiny.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You're part of it.
Your destiny is to be another piece of the story.

Speaker 2 He is part of the story whether or not he is Jack the Ripper. Right.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 And I think that when we look at him in this story and

Speaker 2 him and Polly Nichols, you know, having the same sun and moon,

Speaker 2 the suspect, the alleged murderer and the first victim and then the sun and the moon being in those same points on the first murder it's like of course he would get swept up in the energy of this yeah he's part of the energy yes he is whether he

Speaker 2 and he's also part of the zeitgeist of that moment right

Speaker 2 and him having a Jupiter return um at the you know at the moment of this final most brutal and horrific murder is that a tank you know is there no coincidences about that and then suddenly it's like, well, we're going to direct the attention over here.

Speaker 2 But also in his life, he was falling apart too. Yeah.
Right. In his own

Speaker 2 life, potentially separate life, his mental illness was getting worse. He wasn't eating.
He had to move back in with his family. Yeah.
He was put in an asylum.

Speaker 2 So it's, to me, it's just, it's like sliding doors, you know? Yeah. He was put into an asylum in 1891

Speaker 2 and he was listed as a suspect in 1894.

Speaker 2 So he wasn't even initially listed as a suspect. So to me, what I think is also interesting, it's like these years go by.
We have, you know,

Speaker 2 five plus years now.

Speaker 2 And we have a person.

Speaker 2 And I don't think that they had an astrologer working with them at this time. They probably should have.
They should have. But they have a person who is the chart for the murder.

Speaker 2 So it's like, well, here it is.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Throwing all on him. This is, this is the same.

Speaker 1 And again, it's so easy to do with someone who's been put in an asylum to just be like, well, he did it. Yes.
That's why it stopped. He did it and it stopped.

Speaker 2 And it's over. And everyone, you can go back to your normal lives.

Speaker 1 And it seems, and it's like that narrative fits to a degree where you're just like, well, of course, nothing else happened after this. He's in an asylum.
It stopped.

Speaker 1 But it's like, babe, I don't think he would have kept going anyway. Well, I don't think he needed that.
That was the finale. He thought that was the finale.
That was the crescendo. That was the apex.

Speaker 1 That was the finale. That was Elfine.
And he was going to be done with it. Yeah.
It's like, so I don't think

Speaker 1 people will say like, that's, well, obviously he was in an asylum. That's why he couldn't do anything else.
And it's like, he wasn't going to. No, that wasn't the plan.
Like, that was it.

Speaker 1 He had done his master plan. Who knows if he started a whole different series of something

Speaker 1 later or if that was it. Right.
And he either killed himself, he got caught doing something else, like, whatever. But I don't think he was going to keep going the same way.

Speaker 2 Well, he also didn't get put into an asylum for another three years. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it didn't stop him because he was doing these

Speaker 1 quick succession. And he would have had to have been completely mad at that point at the end of the Mary Jane Kelly murder.
So it wouldn't have taken three years for him to end up.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I think that it could have been someone who had a similar profile to him.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 You know, it could have been another local lunatic, obviously, but like it's not.

Speaker 2 I don't think that it's based on even just the physical description and what the manifestations of his mental illness were. I don't think it could have have physically been him.

Speaker 1 You need to have the strength, stamina, to do this. Like all of the events.
And again, the knowledge, the patience, a steady hand. Yeah.

Speaker 1 All these things. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But now my favorite

Speaker 2 person on the case comes in. So my favorite is Aberline.
Yes. Do you like Aberlene too?

Speaker 1 I do. I love him.
I remember. We talked a whole bunch about him.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So Aberline comes in and is like, step aside. I got this.

Speaker 1 I got this.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 you know why you love Aberlen? He's a Capricorn.

Speaker 1 Of course he's got this.

Speaker 1 And of course he says step aside. He said, shut the hell up, everybody.
He's doing a solo investigation now.

Speaker 2 So he's a Capricorn, solo investigation.

Speaker 2 He's a Capricorn son and he's an Aries moon. Oh.
But this rocked me. So his moon and Pluto, which, you know, we've talked about Pluto, are conjunct in his chart.

Speaker 2 So moon and Aries, Pluto and Aries in his chart. And when I was jotting down, you know, when I was just sort of musing on this, I wrote very strong connection to women.

Speaker 2 And he, it, this energy could almost express itself as wanting to be like an avenger

Speaker 1 for women. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 And then, as I was, you know, pulling up his bio and understanding his role, I found that he was raised by a single mom.

Speaker 1 Yep. Wow.
Yeah. And

Speaker 2 I got goosebumps because I was like, oh my gosh, he understood the humanity of this case

Speaker 2 in a way that some of these other

Speaker 2 guys just like, they were thinking about their own ego. They were thinking about their vacation days.

Speaker 2 They were just not locked in. They weren't locked in, but he was locked in.

Speaker 2 And something that also was an interesting testament to that was the fact that he would patrol the streets himself and also with his, you know, with other police officers that he would sort of put in charge of that.

Speaker 2 And they would give women money to go into shelters for the night and to have beds so that while they didn't know what was going on, that they could be safe in the middle of the night.

Speaker 2 So he was like actively trying to protect Avenger for women.

Speaker 1 Yes, like literally. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So if I were to like cast this, we would make this sort of the

Speaker 2 hero sort of mirror image to the Jack the Ripper who hates women, right? Who is the antithesis of that? Yeah. Who hates women.

Speaker 2 so it's to me like seeing that moon pluto in aries signature and then uh he also has the sun conjunct saturn both in capricorn in his chart very serious very committed also you know if i were to see this in a chart of just anybody now i would say like oh you were the you had to be the parent of your household.

Speaker 2 You know, you were probably very, you had to grow up really fast and take on a lot of responsibilities. That obviously checks out for his upbringing.

Speaker 2 You know, his dad died when he was young and his, he was raised by his single mom, right? So he had to figure out how to take matters into his own hands.

Speaker 1 Take on his father's role.

Speaker 2 Take on the father's role. And he kind of, you know, in this story of all of these different inspectors, sort of became the only one who, who really, I feel like, was sensitive to the conditions.

Speaker 2 And he believed that George Chapman was

Speaker 1 Jack the Ripper. Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And George Chapman, who we have his chart, who is a serial, who is a serial killer,

Speaker 2 hates women.

Speaker 1 Ding, ding, ding.

Speaker 1 And as we said, that was his finale, but maybe he started doing stuff else. He could have done something else.
Because I don't think after that you're going to stop killing entirely. Like you clearly

Speaker 1 have fun with that.

Speaker 1 There's definitely something, something there. But yeah, I think.

Speaker 1 I think he maybe switched to a different place or he switched to a different

Speaker 1 MO, you know?

Speaker 2 So George Chapman, who was

Speaker 2 executed for the murders that he ended up being

Speaker 2 convicted for,

Speaker 2 which was three women who were his mistresses, and he basically, you know, he would poison them to death.

Speaker 2 But he was also very, very violent and he was very physically abusive to all of the women. But he was a womanizer.
He had lots of relationships and women around him.

Speaker 2 And he was jumping from one marriage to the next and making women call themselves his wife. And then he was bringing other women home.
And it's like basically basically he's trying to have a harem.

Speaker 2 And he was a serial killer, right? So he was born on December 14th, 1865, making him a Sagittarius and also meaning that he was connected to as well that Jupiter and Sagittarius energy that we saw.

Speaker 2 building, right? That crescendo of energy. His son in Sagittarius is going to be amplified by Jupiter.

Speaker 2 And Sagittarius is the opposite of Gemini.

Speaker 2 And we had that Neptune Pluto Gemini signature so he's also directly locked in too so to me I think that he fits in to this puzzle as well yeah definitely and he has a moon in Scorpio and a Saturn conjunction to his moon in Scorpio My note here is he hates women.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he does.

Speaker 2 Because just in the way that we talked about the moon in Capricorn being really harsh and sort of like having no emotions, The moon in Scorpio is also, it's considered to be in its fall in this placement.

Speaker 2 It is like a dark energy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's shame. There's weird sex stuff.
There's weird power stuff. There's weird, probably, Oedipus things.

Speaker 2 Wanting to have sex with your own mother things, you know, like there's very, a very dark and complicated relationship with women. To any of our moon and Scorpio people, this isn't necessarily

Speaker 1 a serial killer. Yeah.
Right.

Speaker 1 Perfect set of circumstances.

Speaker 2 Also, not to mention that there's a meme that lists the

Speaker 2 astrological signs of all of the most iconic serial killers, and they're all mutable signs. They're all Virgos, Gemini, Sagittarius, or Pisces.
Yeah. Oh, damn.

Speaker 2 Because you have to have that sort of like changeability.

Speaker 1 Duality. Yes.

Speaker 2 Of course, we also have Aaron, who is a Virgo's son.

Speaker 1 So he would also fit that bill as well. But you know what? Even though he's not a killer.

Speaker 1 It's interesting because like one of the things that I that I remember being like against him that people were like no it's not him is they were like he's not gonna do these brutal eviscerations and then switch to poisoning his wives like those are two different MOs and it's like maybe he is or because he was done here well and also or he looked at those other the canonical five those aren't his wives those aren't his wives that's what I was those are the those are sex workers so he's gonna rip them apart and make them not human anymore his wives he treats him horribly but they get to step up because they're associated with him.

Speaker 1 They get the more like, you know, higher class way of dying. And he also gets to watch them die slowly.

Speaker 2 Yes. And even more to your point,

Speaker 2 there are the sex workers who he just totally brutalizes.

Speaker 2 There are the mistresses that he poisons and brutalizes.

Speaker 2 And then there are his wives that he just physically abuses.

Speaker 2 So there is a hierarchy.

Speaker 1 There is a hierarchy. He isn't killing his actual wives.
That's how kills these people. Which even lends itself too to the fact that he went into this with a plan.

Speaker 1 And that's why maybe there really was just supposed to be four. Yeah.
And he's methodical in the way that he planned this whole thing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think I believe he went in thinking he was going to get four. It's almost like different projects for him.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I think that once, I mean, where do you go after that last murder? Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's the thing. You're not just going to go do that again.

Speaker 2 And there is a sort of, there is the same sort sort of like precise

Speaker 2 sort of, you know, he's dosing them.

Speaker 2 There is this obsession with detail and the anatomy in the body. If there's a clinical nature to it, he was a barber.

Speaker 1 I think that's a good question. I was just going to ask he was.
I think he was also a barber, which back then barbers did have anatomical knowledge. That was a.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's like barber surgeon.

Speaker 1 Yeah, literally, like a barber surgeon.

Speaker 1 Which it was different. Like the barber pole.
That's like the red pole and white pole. The red is because they used to hang bloody rags outside and it looked like that pole.
So that's a representation

Speaker 1 of that. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 They think it was like an artery in a vein, I think, is also what it is.

Speaker 1 Exactly, because it's like blue and red. Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Yeah. So, so I mean, maybe.

Speaker 1 Maybe.

Speaker 2 I would say that of all of these suspects, the strongest.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 And also because we have Aberline, Frederick Aberlin, who is like the women Avenger. Yeah.
And he's the one who says, I know someone who hates women. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I know someone, like, as someone who loves women.

Speaker 2 I've decided that he loves women.

Speaker 1 He's like spotting. But I feel like

Speaker 1 the mom who works hard. Right.

Speaker 2 And he like re and he's giving money to the women. We don't hear about any other character doing that.

Speaker 1 You have to be a lovely person. And think about the time period back then of like those women were not respected by many people at all.
Especially

Speaker 1 enforcement. Like, exactly.
This is a high-standing man in society like helping yeah you know did we just wait not to mention that his last name

Speaker 2 why didn't i notice this it's chapman annie chapman that's his um anglicized name his real last name is klosowski

Speaker 1 which is pretty close to cosminski real close to kosminski

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 2 So could these have just been like could there be a lot of like clarification, which would be so

Speaker 2 Mercury, Gemini, Virgo, coded.

Speaker 1 And very

Speaker 1 of that moment. Of that moment.
And that happens all the time in cases like this, especially the ones that we talk about that take forever to get solved.

Speaker 1 Nine out of ten times, there is a clerical error involved.

Speaker 1 They figure it out. Yeah.
Wow. That's really fascinating, actually.

Speaker 1 I got to look even further into George Chapman, and we got to like. Because we're about to do eighths.
I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 2 When he died, he had no remorse. Yeah.
He had a complete dick. He never, he was like, he didn't say any last words.

Speaker 1 That's why it had to have been someone like that.

Speaker 2 And also think of that. He didn't say any last words.
And we have storytelling and words as like a piece here.

Speaker 2 So the only thing, I mean, there's a lot of things that would weaken this case, but one of them is that I do feel like in those murders.

Speaker 2 in 1888 in those five, like there was just such a desire to be caught. Yeah.
I can't shake that feeling. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That whoever, which would make me feel like whoever it was could have just like off themselves right after, you know, and the reason we don't know who it is, yeah, is just somebody who just like couldn't deal with the insanity that they were going through, which obviously they had to be.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because why did it stop? You could say it stopped because it switched.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because then he went to poisoning. Yeah.
Right. Right.
Well, they could have.

Speaker 2 Just try a little bit of everything.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Why not? Why not say it?

Speaker 1 It's like, like I said, little projects. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Little projects. Wow.

Speaker 1 Might be George Chapman, guys. I mean, I think it could be.

Speaker 1 That was fascinating. You're so good.
You are so good. You are like my astrology idol.
I'm sitting here like, I got to get this good. Like, goddamn wild.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, this is, it's a real treat. Yeah.

Speaker 2 To solve a... a 150-year-old mercury solution.
It's not every day on this beautiful couch.

Speaker 1 That's what we're doing here today. That was so cool.
Lisa, that was insane. Thank you so much for that.
I think we just solved it.

Speaker 1 Now I need to look into George Chapman and I need to make a, we got to make a real case. Yeah.
For this one. Yeah, we got to get on the Australian wire.

Speaker 2 We got to. So we got to get the

Speaker 1 clickbait. We figured it out.
Yeah. Contact them.
Forget the shawl. Look at the charts.
The shawl doesn't exist. What are you talking about? It's a table runner, I'm pretty sure.
Stop.

Speaker 1 Well, weirdos, we have more stuff upcoming with Elisa. We're actually about to record something entirely different, but it's going to be a little while before that comes out.

Speaker 1 So keep your eyes peeled so before we let you go is there anything you want to plug i would love for you all to listen to my podcast

Speaker 1 yay

Speaker 2 horoscope weekly uh episodes come out every monday and every wednesday our monday episodes are horoscopes for every single sign and they also talk about the astrology weather of the week ahead and there's a theme of the week that we work with and then the wednesday episodes are where we learn astrology.

Speaker 2 We talk about how astrology impacts our lives. We go into things like moon signs and the houses and Saturn.
And, you know, you could do all of this. You can solve cases too.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That's the plug.

Speaker 2 Do listen to Horoscope Weekly and solve murders.

Speaker 1 Let's go. Honeys, we leave you with that.

Speaker 2 So we hope you keep listening.

Speaker 1 And we hope you keep it weird.

Speaker 1 But not so weird that you're Jack the Ripper. Yeah, not that weird.
Yeah, don't ever keep it that weird. Don't be that weird.

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