Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 50: The Golden Anniversary Episode

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Speaker 1 Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. That's right, it is Wednesday, and that means only one thing.

Speaker 1 That means we're going to recap our old shows with all new commentary, updates, and insights. And today we're going to recap episode 50, which was originally entitled the Golden Anniversary Episode.

Speaker 1 I love that. That means we've been doing Rewind for a year.
Yeah, that's right. So, this episode came out on January 5th, 2017.
So, let's get into the intro of episode 50.

Speaker 1 Get it out now.

Speaker 1 They're not supposed to know about your pre-show cry.

Speaker 1 Hello, everybody. Are we recording? I wish you guys knew what a nightmare it was from when Karen got here in my apartment until we started recording.

Speaker 1 I just ask for an eight-minute sob before we start. Just to get it out.
Yeah. It's better.

Speaker 1 Is it?

Speaker 1 For me.

Speaker 1 This is my favorite murder. That's right.
That's Karen. That's That's Georgia.

Speaker 1 That's Stardo. There's nothing worse than when we do it correctly.
I feel like it feels terrible to do it right. Well, this isn't that kind of podcast.
Like, this isn't that. This isn't.

Speaker 1 There's no second takes. Although I have to say, I would love if Steven could ever get his act together for a little bit of

Speaker 1 just a little bit of intro music.

Speaker 1 Can we please? Wouldn't it be fun? Just play like your theme song like out loud in the apartment. Yeah, or yes.
Oh, you could do that. Or if you got a keyboard,

Speaker 1 throw it over to the bossa nova rhythm. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Get us pumped.
Get us a little, just a little like talking intro music. Like loud enough that it's over the crying, over Karen's sobbing, so they're like, I can ignore it.

Speaker 1 I wind the sobbing out slowly and you intro the. And that way, I don't accidentally introduce a different podcast.
That's a good idea. Well, I mean, or whatever comes out.

Speaker 1 What if we just have it as the whatever comes out

Speaker 1 allowance? That reminds me. Oh, what are we going to call our tour? I don't know.
So we have a name.

Speaker 1 We don't, but I think it'd be funny to have just a bunch of ideas of no games and like never settle on one. Okay, well, then my first idea is Monsters of Rock.

Speaker 1 What's your first idea?

Speaker 1 The F-word murder mystery tour. Great.
And then we have to fucking give a cut to someone's dad, whoever made up that name.

Speaker 1 I'm really angry.

Speaker 1 We could also do

Speaker 1 just we could call ourselves the Gen Blossoms.

Speaker 1 All of mine are banned jokes. It's not good.
Should we do

Speaker 1 no?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I guess we don't need one.

Speaker 1 I think we're going to have a sign behind us now at the show. Nope.
Who's going to make it? Not us.

Speaker 1 Who's going to hang it? He's going to hang it or make it. Stephen just raised his hand.

Speaker 1 We're just going to

Speaker 1 keep piling shit on you that you have to fucking do. What if we call it Stevens Piles tour?

Speaker 1 The piles of Steven. What's that mean? It's just piles of shit he has to do tour.
Oh, yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 1 It's called. I like that you immediately lost track of what was happening.
Piles, but like I thought, I was thinking like Gomer Piles. So I was thinking calling Stevens Steven Piles, like Gomer Piles.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, no. No, no,

Speaker 1 no. Great.

Speaker 1 What if we cancel the tour?

Speaker 1 Because this is such a problem. It can't be solved.

Speaker 1 Cool.

Speaker 1 What if we call it the dry shampoo tour? Because I swear to God, I planned on bathing before I came here,

Speaker 1 but I didn't. I was doing other stuff.
This is a safe place to not bathe. Oh, my God.
But

Speaker 1 the amount of dry shampoo I've started depending on lately. Do you use it too? Yes.
And your hair looks full and it looks like, you look like a mod,

Speaker 1 like,

Speaker 1 like a mod model, model. Ooh.
Like it's full and bouncy, and I fucking love it. Oh, okay.
Thank you. Thank you.
That's great. I'm going to start doing that then.
I also think I might need more layers.

Speaker 1 It's not. We should not be.
I love it. I love it.

Speaker 1 Thanks.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So,

Speaker 1 oh, you guys loved the year-end guy Brenham spectacular episode. Yes.
Thanks for all your positive feedback on that. Yeah.
We're going to definitely have him back on.

Speaker 1 I don't love that it was one of your favorites because I'm sorry. What have we been doing this this fucking 50 episodes? Hey, look,

Speaker 1 we get it. Yeah.
Yeah, we get it. We get it.
You like when there's someone else talking to them. Anyone else? Anyone else who has correct information? Look, fine.

Speaker 1 We'll do it. Then we'll find.
We'll be fucking smart. Okay.
And we'll do it. Watch this.
Watch how much you don't enjoy this. I'm going to name every state and every Roman numeral right now.

Speaker 1 I can kick off a corrections corner by saying, yes, the Sandra Bullock movie is two weeks' notice. And yes, I said it was called six weeks' notice while claiming to be her number one fan.

Speaker 1 Two weeks is not enough. I feel like six weeks, I think, I feel like is the legal amount.
I'm sorry. Six weeks, like, I'm sorry.
Two weeks is like me getting fired from being a secretary.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Like, but six weeks is like when you're a fucking lawyer, like Sandra Bullock was. You're a professional.
Thank you. Right.
Was she?

Speaker 1 She was? She was a lawyer. Don't even know that.
Very good.

Speaker 1 I just felt like the movie took took so long, it couldn't have been two weeks when she gave that. Do you really like that movie, like legitimately? Oh, yes, I'll watch it every time.

Speaker 1 I know you will, but like, is it like a

Speaker 1 you know, it's a bad movie watch? Nope, it's not a bad movie. Hugh Grant and Sandra Bullock are equal parts.
He's the British version. They're the equal person of themselves.

Speaker 1 They're the mirror reflection of each other. They're like riffy, yet real.
And they're kind of like mumbly bumbly. So they're playing brother and sister in this episode.

Speaker 1 No, they're attracted to each other. Yeah, but they're playing brother and sister.
But they're, which is the part I like. It's a real Game of Thrones situation.

Speaker 1 And yet there's a corporate element to it, which I also love.

Speaker 1 It just bums me out. Like, I see movies like that, and I'm like, oh, what if you had to fucking live your life by working in an office every fucking day?

Speaker 1 You know, part the part that I love in that movie,

Speaker 1 and there's details like this that always stick out to me. You can tell when either the person that wrote the movie or Sandra Bullock herself, there's a part where she orders Chinese food.

Speaker 1 You're like, this isn't how. It's just not how.

Speaker 1 people like the idea is that she's going to totally binge on chinese food but it's way too much chinese food yeah like you already get a ton of chinese food when you just get four or five things like we know here's what you get you get a poultry and you get maybe get a shrimp and then you get a noodle or a rice yes and then maybe some like like um egg rolls because you want a crunchy thing yes that's the first thing that you need but yeah four

Speaker 1 four things entree and maybe you're gonna add the fifth yeah in this thing she sits on that phone and she just keeps ordering dishes.

Speaker 1 And it's like, now I believe that you've never eaten anything besides like an apple and a cup of yogurt

Speaker 1 because you've never allowed yourself to have Chinese. That's a scene in it.
Like, here's how bum she is. I'm pregnant.
Is that what I'm saying? A little bit, it's no, but it's just her thing.

Speaker 1 It's like to show that she's so down to order. It's one of those things where it's like, and people tweet this all the time.

Speaker 1 Like, I ordered Chinese and they brought, and it was just for me, and they brought eight utensils because that's how much I ordered. Like, I'm such such a pig.

Speaker 1 I'm cute, you know? And you're like, fucking shut up. Like, there's that, there's this amazing Instagram that I'm obsessed with.

Speaker 1 And I don't know exactly what it's called, but it's basically called, you didn't eat that.

Speaker 1 And it's these photos of models and like actresses that are like opening their mouth and putting a food thing near it and taking a photo of it. But like, you didn't eat that.
That's right.

Speaker 1 Everyone knows. It's always a carb.
Like, it's always like looking at the burger. I'm going to dance with this bowl of spaghetti.
Yeah. But you've never actually had that in your mouth.

Speaker 1 I'm going to dance dance with this bowl of spaghetti oh my god if you want to take a bath in one food product what would it be because a spaghetti bowl of spaghetti sounds great yeah i think spaghetti and parmesan cheese mixed together olive oil and you just slip right into that dude that's how you go what is wrong with you that sounds so nice that sounds so relaxing

Speaker 1 after giving your six weeks notice yeah you just get into that bath

Speaker 1 maybe order some chinese door dash some chinese postmates it straight into the bathroom We're not, this isn't a commercial, by the way. Oh, no.
You didn't slip into a commercial. Nope, not at all.

Speaker 1 Oh, we also need music before the commercials because the commercials are becoming so chatty. It's not fair.

Speaker 1 We're not trying to do that. We're not.
Like, this isn't, you guys know that we don't know anything about like editing and fucking engineering and being sneaky and like talking about states. Clearly.

Speaker 1 Here's the other mistake I made. Okay.
When we were talking with Guy about legal shit and we were talking about the murder of Harvey Milk,

Speaker 1 I had to pipe up and say,

Speaker 1 and I think you said something like, yeah, he was murdered by his coworker, another

Speaker 1 politician. And I said, that's right, Dan Brown.

Speaker 1 The person that murdered Harvey Milk was Dan White. Dan Brown is the international best-selling author of the Da Vinci Good.

Speaker 1 And he absolutely did not kill Harvey. Parents hurting rumors is my favorite new corner.
This is the gossip corner now. Did you know? But did Guy or Georgia, myself, not a correct you? Not a beat.

Speaker 1 Nope. No one even heard it.
Because here's the thing. We're allowed to say whatever the fuck we want.
This is our podcast. If you want a factual podcast, go to what you missed in facts.
You know what?

Speaker 1 We are at the cutting edge because like this whole thing of like, then there is no reality anymore. No, but we've been doing that since last year.
This isn't happening. You know that.

Speaker 1 I also feel it's funny that you like, I get fucking everything wrong, but you're the one who has corrections corner. So clearly I'm just like, I don't care.
I don't care. I don't care.

Speaker 1 Oh, if you're, if you're a bitch enough to fucking tell me what I got wrong, then that sucks. But I also think it's hilarious to get like when we get shit wrong.
I do too.

Speaker 1 There's people, though, I, I accidentally stumbled on this email and I can't remember.

Speaker 1 I was trying to find, do you ever do that thing where you start an email and then you have to go check something else? This happens to me on my phone all the time.

Speaker 1 I start to write an email and then I have to go check and see, I'm like giving the person I'm writing it to someone else's email.

Speaker 1 And I want to double check to make sure I don't give them the wrong email. So I leave the email.

Speaker 1 So I hit save draft, but then I can't find it in my drafts folder. It's not there.
Then I'm like, did I send that email? Oh my God. And then I'm like, and then what if I go back in,

Speaker 1 I start it again and then resend another email.

Speaker 1 So scared I fucking punched my microphone in the face. This is something that I actually went through recently.
Do you do that?

Speaker 1 I mean, I have, I have done it once, once before, where now I'm scared to death. It's that idea of is it in drafts or did you just send it? It saves it itself so you can just close it.

Speaker 1 Here, this is, but sometimes my phone doesn't

Speaker 1 work quick enough. So it's like, it just updated, but it really didn't.
Do you know what I do, which could be a mistake, is I start to type in their email address in the email I'm writing.

Speaker 1 And it comes up. Oh, like you're going to CC them.
Like you're CCing them in the, but then don't forget to be like, oh, yeah, that kind, here's her email.

Speaker 1 And then you're like, you find it by CCing them. And then you're like, oh, shit.

Speaker 1 that'd be the best you're you're talking about a person that you're also giving their email to the person you're talking yeah but you shouldn't hire her on anything but she's a stupid person anyway get a hold of her anyway like she's but like she's gonna everyone on that crew

Speaker 1 uh

Speaker 1 wait why was i even where were we citing that example mistakes made

Speaker 1 it's called my life what was it There was a reason I was saying that, Steven. What was the reason? Stephen Rowan.
Six weeks. So this.
No. I wasn't that, Stephen.
You're too far back. Put the phone.

Speaker 1 Put that microphone down.

Speaker 1 The phone is not a phone. What if Steven's not like a payphone in the corner?

Speaker 1 Stephen, get off. Oh, Jesus.
Microphones are going everywhere today. Steven, can you get some better fucking props? These props?

Speaker 1 Well, we're about, I'm moving, and so this is about

Speaker 1 all being like, I'm kind of sad. This is our like setup.
We need like

Speaker 1 sad when it's like March and you have full AC.

Speaker 1 People in Marin, like in other parts of the country, are like, March is cold. Nope.
Nope. Not here in

Speaker 1 global warming town.

Speaker 1 We're going to have an episode live from the pool I'm going to fucking be living near. Nice.
We're going to play tennis and record at the same time. Not me.
No.

Speaker 1 We're going to have, I don't know how to play tennis.

Speaker 1 We're going to sit on hardwood floor. Yes.
Everything about, I can't. So yeah, we'll let you know, but we need a photo of like this.

Speaker 1 If Vince Vince comes home drunk, we'll have him take a photo of us right here. The day that I haven't bathed.
You look great.

Speaker 1 You're out of your GD mime.

Speaker 1 You had one more corner.

Speaker 1 Oh, it was my, the thing that happened over Christmas, my good story that I didn't tell you the whole thing of. Oh, so at my aunt Joe's house,

Speaker 1 now my family knows that I have a podcast about murder.

Speaker 1 Many are excited about it. Some don't like it and told me right to my face.

Speaker 1 Which is which is fun. Got

Speaker 1 my lovely aunt Joe said, Well, wait, did you know that Marty had a hand in the arrest of the Night Stalker?

Speaker 1 My cousin Martin, the oldest of all the cousins,

Speaker 1 who is a San Francisco policeman, fuck our fireman,

Speaker 1 who was a cop in San Francisco for many years? He's now retired.

Speaker 1 Was he had just started. He was like just on the force.
He was basically a beat cop and there was a burglary in the marina.

Speaker 1 And so they went in and while they were looking at the place that had been burgled,

Speaker 1 they found a set of fingerprints. And so they called the forensic team, whatever it's called.

Speaker 1 He told me the story on the phone, actually, because I was texting him of like, how could you never have told me that? What in the fucking fuck? And he was like, we never talk.

Speaker 1 You're the most, you're, you're, you're always in Los Angeles. Yeah.
Stop using me for crime. And then I was like, too bad.
Tell me the story. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 You've been boring the whole time I've known you. And now suddenly you're interested.
No, this is, these are the, all my cousins are fun.

Speaker 1 Um, but he tells me, so they find a fingerprint on the windowsill. They call the guy, the team, to come and get it.
And then that fingerprint leads to the identification of Richard Ramirez. Dude.

Speaker 1 Because, so you know how he started in LA, then he went up to San Francisco, then he went back down to LA. Okay.

Speaker 1 So when he was in San Francisco, that fingerprint basically helped identify him.

Speaker 1 And my cousin Marty was one of the two cops. They had that technology then where they could like send fingerprints to places.
I guess so. I mean, it was like the late 90s, it was the late 80s.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think it was 89. Like fax machines were in their prime.

Speaker 1 They faxed over the request. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Dude, that's so cool. It was super exciting to me.
And I go, why didn't you ever tell me this? And he goes, no one's ever asked me about this.

Speaker 1 You need to write how people talked about it. Yeah.
That's what I said.

Speaker 1 And the interesting thing he said was that in that break-in,

Speaker 1 Richard Ramirez stole a couple things from this, you know, the marina is like super nice part of San Francisco.

Speaker 1 There was a girl sleeping downstairs and he didn't know. Thank fucking God.
And he didn't go downstairs. If he had gone downstairs, she would be dead.
And also, one of my favorite stories. I know.

Speaker 1 She never even knew he was there. So she was like the luckiest.
And

Speaker 1 also,

Speaker 1 while Richard Ramirez was in San Francisco,

Speaker 1 there was

Speaker 1 my cousin,

Speaker 1 my cousin Marty's daughter, Kathleen told me this because she said she's always been scared to pull her car into a garage. That's where you have to walk out of it.

Speaker 1 Well, she's like, anytime I there's a garage, I immediately

Speaker 1 turn off the engine, but immediately close the door. Well, they have those garages that don't have doors, but you have to pull into them and then walk back out the garage door.

Speaker 1 And those are very scary. Very scary.

Speaker 1 So she's like super paranoid of anything similar to that because when Richard Ramirez was in San Francisco, there was a woman who got out of her car and he was standing in the front of the garage thing and he shot her.

Speaker 1 And the bullet was deflected by her keys. Oh, man.

Speaker 1 And she survived. Last night, a key chain saved.

Speaker 1 Come on, no. Don't.
Don't. No, you don't.

Speaker 1 Elvis just stopped touching me when I said that. Elvis was like, that's the stupidest thing you've ever seen.
How dear. Mom.
So anyway,

Speaker 1 that was Christmas night. I got to hear all these stories.
And it made me so proud.

Speaker 1 to be a Kilgareff. It was exciting.
I'm proud of it. Is his last name Kilgareth? Yeah.
That's fucking awesome, dude. Marty Kilgariff.
Then my cousin.

Speaker 1 And then Mike is a sheriff, Sheriff Kilgariff. Sheriff Kilgariff.
Yeah, that's real. Oh, my God.
My brother was an usher at a movie theater when he was in high school. And so he was Asher the Usher.

Speaker 1 Asher the Usher.

Speaker 1 See, dreams come true. Oh, everything's fine.
Everything's going to be okay in 2017.

Speaker 1 Well, my second cousin wrote Pink Cadillac. So there we go.
The Bruce Frankston song? Yeah. Is it? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Pink Cadillac.

Speaker 1 Yeah. He wrote that.
That's awesome. He's in the Bay Area, too.

Speaker 1 It's very cool. What if we're twins?

Speaker 1 Well, thanks for tuning in. This is called Family Victories with Karen and Georgia.
This is called We're Not Losers. We only have family or successful.

Speaker 1 Someone's doing something.

Speaker 1 MyfavoriteMurder.com has all the... Well, this isn't the end of the show, but.

Speaker 1 you know, we're about to get into some heavy fucking shit. Right.

Speaker 1 I don't know. So, yeah, so, so take this information with you.
There's a website.

Speaker 1 We have a website.

Speaker 1 Is there anything? I feel like I just, I should do something where I write stuff down when I think of it throughout the week and then talk to you about it. Like make a list.
Yep. Sure.
Put it out.

Speaker 1 Before we get started with the murders, just happy 50th episode. Oh my gosh.
Steven.

Speaker 1 Is this it? Yeah, this is episode 50.

Speaker 1 Oh my God. Thank God for Stephen.
Steven.

Speaker 1 You mentioned it earlier and I was like, and then just like passed by and I was like, wait, really? No one's going to be a song.

Speaker 1 I was like, that can't be right. Yeah, this is episode 15.
You're hired.

Speaker 1 Holy shit. Good shit.
Isn't that great? And then the first episode, I think, aired. January 15th.

Speaker 1 I found the very first Instagram account or Instagram photo on my Instagram that says like, hey, Karen, I started a von Count.

Speaker 1 I'm going to post it on the 15th. But that's...

Speaker 1 That's crazy. It's been almost a full year.
Holy shit. And 50 episodes.
Yeah, 50 episodes. That means our live show at the Orth Theum is going to be like, it's the 17th? Someone needs to know that.

Speaker 1 It's the 28th. MyfavorateMurder.com.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Go ahead and visit that website.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, it's our 50th. Isn't it the 28th? There's a 24th.
No, it's so

Speaker 1 good. Stephen,

Speaker 1 this is why we hired you. This is the market edit.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 Congratulations. Thanks.
Congratulations to you too. Thank you.
I feel like it's not that hard to make 50 podcasts.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry.
Fucking kidding me?

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. That's great.
I mean, it's great because it's doing well and it's not sad. Yep.

Speaker 1 God bless America. Who's going first? Karen can't.
Well, we just, yeah. What?

Speaker 1 It's just good. It's cool.
It's good. Okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Am I going first? Wait, what's the date of the Orphum show?

Speaker 1 It's the 21st.

Speaker 1 None of those guesses were right. Did you know Vince and I recently had to look at the inscription inside of his wedding ring to remember what day we got married on?

Speaker 1 Was your anniversary. And we were both wrong.

Speaker 1 That is the inscription is smart. That's a good idea.
Yeah, thank God we did that because we were both like, the sixth? I was like, I think it was the four.

Speaker 1 And it was a fifth.

Speaker 1 So awesome.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh, this is when I'm moving out of my apartment. We're back.
Sorry. Yeah, what's the whole thing with it's a nightmare in the apartment before the show started? I have no idea.

Speaker 1 Like, because it was all, maybe you were upset because you had to move and record. Yeah, maybe it was just a mess, a big mess of boxes and stuff and probably hot.
Who the fuck knows? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Probably hot. Yeah.
Yeah. Packing a moot wasn't fun.
So, um, oh, I miss that apartment. I was wondering when we were going to get to this.
Yeah. The end.
The last episode in this apartment. Yeah.

Speaker 1 We had a photo of it empty. And this is our 50th episode.
That's like a big deal. I think it's a big deal in the episode, and you don't.
I still think it's a big deal. 50 is,

Speaker 1 I guess it's a big deal if you're thinking about human weddings or something like that.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Can you imagine whispering to us, you're going to do 500. You're going to do more than 500.
You're going to do this for the rest of your lives.

Speaker 1 There are so many corrections corners in this episode. Because we're going to do my story first.
I call it the Somerset Man over and over again.

Speaker 1 It's not the Somerset Man, which is a place in California and a place in the UK. Is that what you were thinking of? No, probably not.
Maybe. I don't know.
Yeah. Just sounds similar.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I mean, it's me

Speaker 1 apologizing for calling the Sandra Bullock movie six-week notice, but I actually said eight weeks notice, and the movie is called two-week's notice.

Speaker 1 And whoever made, I think it was Sabrina who made this note. It says, while claiming to be her number one fan.

Speaker 1 So I am the ultimate hypocrite because I don't know the names of her movies and I still will absolutely try to take credit for being her number one fan. I don't know, though.

Speaker 1 Does that, do both things have to be true? No. Like, you don't have to know them all.
I mean, thanks for letting me off the hook.

Speaker 1 I feel like the real bullock heads would be like, get the fuck out of here if you don't even know two weeks' notice. Well, maybe I just have like PTSD from dudes going, what songs do the band sing?

Speaker 1 Oh, you really like them? what songs? And I don't know the names of songs.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because like, you know, people just record it on tape, so you don't know the names of the song. It's fine.
I'm not looking at the fucking liner of the notes like a dork.

Speaker 1 I'm not here to prove my fandom to you, another fan. It can't be done.

Speaker 1 But then we don't even need to spend time with that correction corner because I immediately say that Dan Brown murdered Harvey Milk instead of Dan White, which is a horrible thing to say about the man who wrote my favorite book, The Da Vinci Code.

Speaker 1 I'm just kidding. You love Da Vinci Code and Sandra Bullock.
Like, those are Karen's. I mean, it's who I am as a person.
You ever need her security questions for passwords? Da Vinci 3549.

Speaker 1 All right, let's do it. Okay, so now we're going to get into George's story about the Summerton

Speaker 1 man. That's right.

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Speaker 1 Stephen, part of your new job that we're hiring you for is that you need to remember who went first last time.

Speaker 1 Guy Brandon went first last year. Right, that's right.

Speaker 1 No one went first. New year, new year, fresh start.
All right.

Speaker 1 Rock, paper, scissors. That's right.
Okay. One, two, three, hit.
Yeah. Okay.
One, two, three, hit. Fuck.
One, two, three, hit. I got mine.
All right.

Speaker 1 First, we got scissors, and then I got paper and she got rock, just guys, for those, for those watching at home. Yep.

Speaker 1 For those who have to know.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, this one is like, I didn't want to do this one because I feel like, well, everyone knows, like, I do this a lot where it's like, well, I've been obsessed since I was a kid.

Speaker 1 So I'm like, everyone knows this thing, but people keep asking us to do it. And it's fucking fascinating.
And there's information that one doesn't know about.

Speaker 1 So I'm like, I got into it and I got really into it. Okay, cool.
So, this is the Tamman Shud. Oh, yes.
The Somerset Man. We have just talked about this, but we haven't gone into detail.
Right.

Speaker 1 So, there's some really interesting info about it. So, I'm going to get through the beginning.
And have you solved it? I've solved it. Oh, great.
Okay. Well, of course, I, in my head, have solved it.

Speaker 1 You know exactly what

Speaker 1 the morning of December 1st, 1948,

Speaker 1 a man's body is found on Somerton Beach, which is in Australia. It's near Adelaide, which is like the fucking has the best serial killers.

Speaker 1 The dead man is leaned up against

Speaker 1 a wall. He's on the beach, leaned up against a wall.
He's wearing a suit and tie. He's well dressed.

Speaker 1 There's an unlit cigarette resting on his collar as if he was just like about to smoke and then it fell out of his mouth when he died.

Speaker 1 I know.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 his feet are crossed. There's no signs of struggle or distress.
And people walking by had seen him and thought he was just drunk. He was like propped up that way.

Speaker 1 He had no identification on him. What he had on him was an unused rail ticket or a bus ticket, a comb, gum, cigarettes, and a scrap of paper with the phrase

Speaker 1 Taman Shud.

Speaker 1 It's hard to find out exactly how to say this. Taman Shud.
Spell it. T-A-M-A-N-S-U-H-S-H-U-D.

Speaker 1 It's not, okay.

Speaker 1 It means finished in Persian. Okay.

Speaker 1 Um, and the labels had been clipped from his clothing.

Speaker 1 So the autopsy doesn't find a cause of death, but notes that he was in his 40s, he had a fit physique, um, and that they said that he had strong and high calf muscles as if he were a dancer.

Speaker 1 Just like me. All right.
But You can tell those things, supposedly. So they take his railway ticket and they find his suitcase at the train station.

Speaker 1 And they know it's his because a spool of thread inside the case matches the thread that he had used to repair one of his pockets.

Speaker 1 And in the suitcase is a shaving kit, clothes, and a coat with stitching that was specific to U.S. tailoring.
So they thought he was from the U.S. Also, he had Wrigley's juicy fruit gum.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's American. What if this whole time this had just been an ad for Wrigley's juicy fruit gum? And they're like, you can't tell it apart anymore.

Speaker 1 And only American men chewed it back then, or Australian men didn't. So, okay, so the paper, the Tom and Shud,

Speaker 1 was torn out of a poetry book, a Persian poetry book that was extremely rare.

Speaker 1 And local librarians identified the phrase as the very last two words. It's the Rubiyat of Omar

Speaker 1 Khayyam. It's a book of poems from the 12th century by a Persian poet.
And the theme of this book is that one should live their life to the fullest and have no regrets when it ends. Eh, Fakamen.

Speaker 1 And the very last line, it's almost like saying the end was Tom and Shoe, which is finished.

Speaker 1 And for some fucking reason, that was in his pocket. Okay.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 a dude comes forward and says that he had actually found

Speaker 1 this this book in the backseat of his car around the same time and around the same place. Like someone had tossed this book into the backseat of his car.

Speaker 1 And it had those two last words ripped out of it. And in the book that the guy had found were a bunch of lines that were code.
It seemed to be code.

Speaker 1 They didn't make any sense, but they're all capital letters and the letters all kind of seem like how English words would start.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 the theory is that the Somerton man was poisoned.

Speaker 1 There was no trace of poison found in his system, but the pathologist who performed the autopsy said that his spleen had grown to three times its normal size and that his liver was damaged.

Speaker 1 And he said, quote, I am convinced the death could not have been natural. And he said, the poison I suggested was a barbituate or a soluble hypnotic, which is sleeping pills.

Speaker 1 But no foreign substance was found in his body, but most of these barbituates like kind of go away within a couple of days.

Speaker 1 So it seems like he was poisoned, but there was no poison actually found in his body. And then code breakers have tried to solve the code that's in the actual book.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 like, okay, so there's these, these like a bunch of letters and they think it stands for, it's time to move south. It's time to move to South Australia, Mosley Street.

Speaker 1 Which is like so stupid and I think that they just made up. Like it sounds ridiculous.

Speaker 1 The letters are I T T N T and they came up with it that way to mosley street so you're just saying it seems like they're just reaching for something that it could mean yes but however

Speaker 1 however however

Speaker 1 there's also a phone number an unlisted phone number in the book and it belongs to

Speaker 1 a former army nurse who lives on mosley street oh not so stupid maybe well maybe they knew that afterwards and made that up because that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard okay why

Speaker 1 i don't know it's just like well, it's all. Well, because is it because it's like the secret code, and then all it says is like a place? It's like not even that interesting.

Speaker 1 Yeah, or it's time to move to South Australia Mosley Street. Why would anyone need to code that? Well, maybe it doesn't mean what it sounds like it means.
Like, maybe it's code within code where

Speaker 1 it's like move means something sinister.

Speaker 1 Okay, so the down

Speaker 1 the street

Speaker 1 from where he dies is Mosley Street, Street, where

Speaker 1 it's a five-minute walk to where the person whose phone number where she lives, her name is Jo Thompson, and she lives on Mosley Street. When the cops go there, she's like, I don't know who he is.

Speaker 1 But actually, I gave that exact book to Lieutenant Alfred

Speaker 1 Boxall,

Speaker 1 who she had served with. So she doesn't know who this person is.
There's this fucking rare book of poems that she had given to someone she had served with. And you don't

Speaker 1 just give a person a book of poems. No, no, no.
They were probably buying. Right.
I mean, that's not, you're not like, oh, here's the Rubiat. Yeah.
See you later, pal.

Speaker 1 No, I gave everyone a copy of fucking Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy that I fall in love with. No.

Speaker 1 No, I don't. Poems.
I mean, I've done it, but I don't. Poems are a big deal.
Yeah. If someone gives you a book of poems, they're into you.
And it's like a rare book of beautiful poems.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she spent like 40 bucks at a bookstore. For sure.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So she's like, I don't know who that is, but that book sounds familiar. I gave it to this dude.
And so they, they're like, well, this dude must be the Somerset man.

Speaker 1 But then he turns up in 49 and he still has his copy of his book and it's attacked. So it's not him.

Speaker 1 But he has a copy of the book. Like, you know him.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 So they people

Speaker 1 could he sorry, could he just as a cover have gotten a second copy? Or like, what if it was just like they show a photo of it and it's like duct taped into the fucking last page of the book?

Speaker 1 He just like

Speaker 1 just really shitty crayon. Yeah.
And it's like written in crayon. It is finished.
No exclamation point.

Speaker 1 Yes, totally, yes. What you're saying.

Speaker 1 So people started to speculate that Lieutenant Boxall was working for the military intelligence at the time.

Speaker 1 And maybe the Somerton man was a Soviet spy and he was poisoned by Baxall or some other agent. So he went to visit this woman who had given this man a copy of the book, and they were all spies.

Speaker 1 And maybe, you know, it's like, it's really interesting. Okay.

Speaker 1 But Boxall himself dismisses a quote as, it's quite a melodramatic thesis. Say that in an Australian voice.
I don't, I can't. Oh, it's, I can't.

Speaker 1 They always sound like everything goes up at the end. They, no matter what they're saying, they sound like they're kind of excited.
Even when they're, that's why I was listening.

Speaker 1 I told you I was listening to Case File over the break when I drove to San Francisco. Oh, that's great.

Speaker 1 And to listen to somebody very seriously talk about murder, but have their inclin, the intonation go up at the end is so enjoyable to me.

Speaker 1 Because it's like an exclamation mark at the end of every sentence. Yeah, it just kind of sounds like everything's all right, even though it's murder.

Speaker 1 Do you know what happened over the, I forgot to tell you this at New Year's Eve, I was at Joe DeRosa's house and there was an Australian girl there who was from Adelaide.

Speaker 1 And I was like, I did the thing of, you guys have great murders and she was she wasn't like yeah here's one i remember she was like oh

Speaker 1 i know

Speaker 1 she was very she was very sweet but by you

Speaker 1 australia has the best murders yes tell me about them and one million of them so in 2009 speaking of university of adelaide professor derek abbott who's like this dude who's like the dude like who's obsessed with this now like nowadays he's the guy cool you know what i mean and he's a professor That'll help.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And he's a professor at the University of Adelaide.
And he's like, I'm going to solve this, which sometimes is like bad because you're like tunnel vision, but it's still interesting.

Speaker 1 Still, get into it. So, Derek Abbott thinks that the key to the code is in the actual book that they found.

Speaker 1 But the edition that was on was near on the Somerset Man is so rare that they can't find it. A copy of that to like know if it matches up.
Like, you know, when they, they change

Speaker 1 chapters and they change wording and they change the translation later. Yeah.
Like, we can't find a book that that's old, old enough to like match up to this book, which is cool.

Speaker 1 Like, it could be, I don't know, it could be in there, but it's not in the ones that we can buy, which I'm like, can you imagine going to a fucking news bookstore and finding that book?

Speaker 1 And, like, right. And also, like, have put on an APB of like, does anybody have the Rubiat lookup?

Speaker 1 Your grandma's library.

Speaker 1 Please send it. So you know, the Rubiat, you fucking know about this.
What? The Rubiat. Like, that was amazing that you, I didn't know what it was called.
Oh, oh.

Speaker 1 It's all knowledge that doesn't help me in any way. Except for on your podcast.
Oh, hi. I'm sorry.
Except for on your career podcast.

Speaker 1 Where was I? Okay. So

Speaker 1 the original autopsy report, guess what? It's lost. They always get lost.
The government won't. exhume the body.

Speaker 1 And Abbott's trying really hard to get them to exhume exhume the body for dna testing what's the problem well here that they won't do it yeah because they think they don't think it'll catch a murderer that's their thing is like what it's like if there will be clues to murder to a murderer they'll exhume it but if it's just to to figure out some mysterious clue they won't do it but

Speaker 1 okay

Speaker 1 which is like it's got to be expensive to exhume a body right yes and i understand that they don't want to disturb it's that's there's a whole thing but like like yeah, okay, I see that.

Speaker 1 Can I go on record and say disturb the shit out of my body if there's some mysterious clue that needs to be solved? Oh, I'll dig you up so fast, claw me out.

Speaker 1 Call me, I'm gonna have a note taped to my body. I'm not gonna tell you what it is.

Speaker 1 I'm gonna get you one of those plots where you can just, it's never fully buried, like you can just keep bringing the body up on a little elevator.

Speaker 1 Do you know about how they used to, there were so many, um,

Speaker 1 there were so many bodies that got buried buried that were still alive at a certain point that they started burying people with bells yes right yes so that if the bell there was a bell in the coffin that went up to the surface surface so they were if you were fucking buried alive you would ding it but then so many people would start decomposing with their finger in the bell because they put it in there and the gases would move shit and who would ding the bell how creepy would that be to like be the night fucking monitor and just be like ding it ding ding ding every like which one's real and which one's not now This was around that time this is like 1800 170 1800 spot to be yeah Yeah, where like everything was just so creepy back then.

Speaker 1 Yeah, everything's creepy It was like night. It was always night.
Yes, it was always night. Women always had black lace veils over their faces.
Flags everywhere. Dead children, piles of dead children.

Speaker 1 Oh my God. Like you expect your kids to die.
You just

Speaker 1 knew it. You'd be like, hey, let's call you Timmy.
Who really knows? I'm going to farm you out to this rich couple to be their servant. Goodbye.
Bye. Goodbye, ultimately.
Yeah. Okay.
Good luck.

Speaker 1 Luck.

Speaker 1 So dark. Everything sucks, but it's the best, but it sucks.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Autopsy report is lost. Okay.
All right, cool. So,

Speaker 1 so Abbott notices, like in the photos of the Somerset Man, he notices a couple things about him that are strange.

Speaker 1 One is that his upper ear,

Speaker 1 like this part right here that I'm pointing at that you can't see on the the podcast, is

Speaker 1 strangely shaped. And the formation is shared by less than 2% of Caucasians.
So the upper lobe of the ear is larger than the lower lobe of the ear, which is rare. Okay.

Speaker 1 Less than 2%. Do you ever do that thing where you know ears are really the identifier of people? Like when you, you know, when they always have that thing, it's like, is Nicholas Cage a time traveler?

Speaker 1 Here's a picture of him.

Speaker 1 Civil War, those ears don't match.

Speaker 1 And you can like immediately, if you see and you think, could these two people be the same check the ears first or like a little like a kid corpse that like it went missing and like there's a the photo of the kid and there's a the photo of his body and they're like well his ear doesn't stick ear doesn't sit they look exactly the same yeah fuck dude that's cool although i know a guy in high school who got fucking taped my ears back surgery oh yeah oh that's true isn't that sad no but that was not now they don't do that now although i guess they could if they like kidnapped a kid and like fixed his ears well i mean you'd have to.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 there's so many possibilities in this life.

Speaker 1 I know, I love that. Okay, so he looks at the body and he is like, here are the ears, these are wrong.

Speaker 1 Um, and also he had a condition in which the so these certain teeth are missing in the front so that your incisors, your pointy guys, are right next to your two front teeth.

Speaker 1 Yeah, instead of having a buffer, yep. Right? So it's just like fang.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 1 and it's again, less than 2% of the population have this. And I think it's hereditary.
They don't prove anything on their own, but

Speaker 1 so, but Derek Abbott examines photos of the, the, of the son of the woman whose phone number is in the book who claims to have nothing to do with him.

Speaker 1 Her fucking kid, Robin, has those same fucking abnormalities. Both? Fear and teeth? Both.
Shit. And in addition to that, guess what he does for a fucking living? He's a ballerina.
Yep.

Speaker 1 Are you kidding? I'm not fucking kidding.

Speaker 1 Okay. Blown mind.
Am I wrong? What is she doing? Why won't she be honest? Because something went wrong because maybe she was a spy and so was he. And he came back around and was like, what's up?

Speaker 1 I'm here in town. Because he was in town for like he came into town.
Like they had bus tickets and the suitcase thing that showed that he was just fucking visiting. So he came into town for her.
Oh.

Speaker 1 If you believe these theories. Yes.
So he came into town to confront her or to see her or to fucking threaten her or to fucking blackmail her or whatever. Or to make her a nice dinner.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And she was like,

Speaker 1 I don't want dinner. I'm going to put poison in your food.

Speaker 1 Whoa.

Speaker 1 Something.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, because he was poisoned. And it could have been her.
That's why she's lying.

Speaker 1 It doesn't come up ever in any

Speaker 1 web page that you find. But in my mind, yeah, it could have fucking been.
She's in the mix. She's up in that mix.
Okay, so

Speaker 1 his daughter, so her daughter,

Speaker 1 her son, Robin, who they think is the kid, passes away in 2009.

Speaker 1 And his daughter, Kate, is on 60 Minutes in 2013 saying that his grandma had fucking known this dude, the Summerton man, and that they both might have been spies.

Speaker 1 And she had no evidence of that, but she also said that she thought that this guy was her dad's father. Huh.
Yeah, like she, the granddaughter believes it.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 1 the best, like, I love this part of the story. Maybe I should save it.
It's like a really, okay, for what next? I don't know, it's just cute. No, for the end, because it makes it less sad.

Speaker 1 Oh, oh, okay, yeah, I'm gonna save it. Okay,

Speaker 1 so, uh, so they're trying to get the Australian government to exhume the body, they won't fucking do it. Um,

Speaker 1 he he looks British in appearance, he's this age, he's in good physical. I don't know, this is all like they're saying there's no reason to do it, yeah.

Speaker 1 Maybe he wasn't murdered.

Speaker 1 The thing is that the kid was a fucking ballet dancer, and the original autopsy said he had great calves and looked like a fucking ballet dancer, which is like, and those two other fucking things, come on, please.

Speaker 1 Um, do do do

Speaker 1 so.

Speaker 1 Let's see, I didn't edit this as well as I should have.

Speaker 1 Okay,

Speaker 1 Okay. So they're now trying to test the DNA of the daughter of this woman, or I mean, the granddaughter of this woman, but they don't have the DNA of the Summerton man.
So

Speaker 1 but they think that they're related. Okay.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 the DNA of anything of him, do you know?

Speaker 1 They made a bust of his face. And you can go online and see a really amazing I think what an amazing fucking autopsy face photo.
This like post post-mortem

Speaker 1 photo. And to me, I mean, and this is so stupid.
I've always thought he looks like my grandfather, who was a Eastern European immigrant. Like, I've always thought he looks like that.

Speaker 1 So maybe he was a spy for fucking Germany in World War II, but

Speaker 1 who knows? So, oh, so in the bust they made of him, there's some hairs left, but I don't think they can get the DNA out of it.

Speaker 1 So that's why they're trying to exhume him, but they test the DNA of the granddaughter, and it turns out that uh

Speaker 1 that she might be related to like thomas jefferson which if it is if he is related he's from america oh okay basically so didn't we know that from the juicy fruit yeah we thought that but also it's interesting because if they find someone who is related and they have an uncle who disappeared then we'll fucking know who it is oh you know what i mean which is really cool um

Speaker 1 They believe she had an affair. They were, maybe they were spies, maybe they weren't.
But the fucking best part of this whole story. So that's what, that's basically what it is.
We don't know that.

Speaker 1 I, the last news story I can get from this is from October of 2016. Oh, and it says they're testing the DNA.

Speaker 1 And this, and the doctor, who seems really fucking cool named Fitzpatrick, her last name, it's a shit, she, her name is Fitzpatrick, is going to do a whole thing about it. And she never did.

Speaker 1 I can't find it. But so the granddaughter, Kate,

Speaker 1 and Derek Abbott, who's trying to find the DNA in the story of this. The professor got married.
Yes. Had three babies.
Fell in love. What? How cute is that? What if he's just using her?

Speaker 1 He's not for DNA.

Speaker 1 Every night she's like, I just, I have these dreams of my cheek being swabbed.

Speaker 1 And I just. What? No, I just like q-tips.
I love plucking your hair, darling.

Speaker 1 I mean, who hasn't had a boyfriend who wants to pluck your hair? Am I wrong? Everybody's gone through that. Yeah.
And there's always a bowl in the toilet that catches your pee. That's like.

Speaker 1 it's standard. That's actually very sweet.
So like he goes to, like, he goes there to like fucking find out what's going on. I'm going to interview the granddaughter.

Speaker 1 And she's like, here's his information. And I believe it too.
And then they make out. And then they're just like in the stacks trying to find

Speaker 1 files. Can't you feel how cute is that? Oh, my God.
It's precious. That's like the best.
Like, that's so, you'd read a book about that and you'd be like, come on. Shut up.

Speaker 1 Well, also, because everything about else about this case is so frustrating. First of all, are we sure we haven't done this before? Because I feel like all of that was so familiar.
We've talked

Speaker 1 about it. We've talked about it.
I know I listened to it on Thinking Sideways. Yes, it's sure.
That's why I didn't want to do it.

Speaker 1 This thing happened. Like, okay, I want to say like when Jamie Lee was on the live episode, she did a story that I think is fascinating that I would never do because I feel like.

Speaker 1 We need to do stories that nobody knows about. I disagree.
I know. I know.
And I agree with that. And when Jamie said she was going to do it, the audience fucking cheered.

Speaker 1 And I was like, oh, we can actually do stories that people know about. We're just like going to find it.
I know. I totally know.
Totally. So when I found that out, I was like.

Speaker 1 But then me just saying this right now is like convincing you otherwise, basically. No, you're correct.
Oh, I totally think you're correct. No, I mean, me saying it sounds familiar.

Speaker 1 No, I mean, I did John Bonnet. Like, I can do this.
Yeah. Yeah.
So it's fine. Yeah.
I just, what was the point? Oh, yeah. So we've heard about it.
You and I have heard about it.

Speaker 1 I said to Vince, have you ever heard about this case? And he was like, no. No.
Well, also, it's so vague. It's like, so a dead guy is there and he's got these weird items on him.

Speaker 1 And he may be this and he may be that, but he might just be a dead guy. Dude, that like there's you like a lot of stuff, a lot of like way things have been painted on.

Speaker 1 Like he could be a spy and it could be this and it could be that. Could be just a dead guy.
They didn't find poison in his body. Right.
He could have, he could have killed himself.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, he spleened himself out one night.
Just spleened. You need to to spleen yourself.
You better spleen yourself to me, right? Splane yourself.

Speaker 1 No, it's one of those stories that I think everyone knows the first three paragraphs of from like Snopes or whatever or from fucking Reddit, but the like weird details of it and the people like this guy who are still trying to fucking figure it out, who I think are going to be disappointed when they find out.

Speaker 1 Well, also, I think it's the fear. I think the interest is everyone has the fear.
What if for some reason you died and no one could figure out who you were? That's so cool.

Speaker 1 It's such a sad, weird thing that would be. Oh, I think it's cool.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think to me, like,

Speaker 1 it sounds like

Speaker 1 it's true that he impregnated this woman. He came to confront her somehow.

Speaker 1 Who knows how he knew her, why she said she didn't know him. Those things are suspicious to me.

Speaker 1 Whatever happened was a bummer and he went and killed himself, or drank himself to death, or some fucking thing, and died there. Yeah.
And she,

Speaker 1 it's just weird that she wouldn't admit to knowing him. Maybe she didn't want scandal of being pregnant on wedlock.
I don't know. It's fascinating.
The Summer Summerton Man?

Speaker 1 What's the actual name of it?

Speaker 1 The name of the whole case is the Tom and Shud. But he's being called the what man? Summerton Man.
Because that's the beach he was found on. Okay.
Summerton Beach. And I feel like

Speaker 1 if I ever did a corrections corner I'd have a lot of them for next fucking week hey come on over to the corner we have a great time over here yeah well cheers

Speaker 1 okay we're back do you have uh any case updates for the Somerton man I do and as I said in 2017 there are also corrections so here we go in 2018 using the strands of hair that were pulled from the Summerton man's plaster bust Derek Abbott and Dr.

Speaker 1 Colleen Fitzpatrick were able to finally extract a DNA sample, which is like so fascinating.

Speaker 1 By 2022, they had used this sample to painstakingly build out a family tree with more than 4,000 people on it before landing on what they believe is the Somerton man's name, Carl Webb, which they have a fucking name finally.

Speaker 1 And I guess he goes by Charles. Abbott and Dr.

Speaker 1 Fitzpatrick theorized that Webb, who was from Melbourne and worked as an electrical engineer, came to South Australia to find his ex-wife, Dorothy Jean Robertson, after she fled their home.

Speaker 1 According to their divorce papers, he was moody, violent, and wrote many poems about death, claiming it was his greatest desire. But there are still many questions, including how he died.

Speaker 1 It's still unclear if his death was a suicide, natural causes, or foul play. This just sounds like one of the historical fictions that I love to read.
that like say what happened. And I love this.

Speaker 1 It's just fascinating. I mean, it's super weird that a person would be judged by the terrible poetry they write in life.
That's not fair. If you're a violent man, that's what you get.

Speaker 1 Well, that's very true. The rest of his history belies something different, but writing bummer poetry doesn't really dictate who you are as a person.

Speaker 1 And then back in 2021, as Fitzpatrick and Abbott were still building out the family tree, Adelaide authorities exhumed the Somerton man's body while conducting their own separate investigation into his identity.

Speaker 1 But it's unclear where the police investigation stands as of May 2025.

Speaker 1 And in any case, the police released a statement acknowledging their identification with a spokesperson, emphasizing that the department was, quote, still actively investigating the Somerton Mann coronial matter.

Speaker 1 So some people don't believe it. Some people are skeptics, but he is identified.
They're saying, yeah. They're saying he's not.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that maybe they're still investigating his death, but they agree that that's who it is. Okay.
I don't know. And then.

Speaker 1 Also, a minor correction, Professor Derek Abbott did not marry the daughter of Nurse Jo, Kate, which I'm like, we loved that piece, I think. Yeah.
He married Robin's daughter, Rachel Egan.

Speaker 1 So there's still romance happening in the Summerton Man story, which is exciting. Yeah, that's good.
All right. So we now know who he is.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, at least like a years, decades-long mystery is solved. Yeah.
Satisfying. If that is who he is.
Yeah. Definitely.
All right.

Speaker 1 Let's get into Karen's story, one of your famous cult stories, the Bogwang Tree Rajneesh.

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Speaker 1 All right. Do you want to hear mine?

Speaker 1 Mine's weird this week. And this is the one I've been working on for so many weeks and I never, I can never figure out how to put it together.
It's like such a long

Speaker 1 involved thing. No.
No, it's weird. Okay.

Speaker 1 It's the Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh and the Rajneesh Purim community that they set up in central Oregon in the early 80s. I know some of those words.
All right. Let me walk you through.

Speaker 1 No, it's, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 It's hated. And it's not, there's not an actual murder.
It's attempted murder. But the whole thing is so crazy.
And it's a story. It's a new story.

Speaker 1 I remember standing in front of the TV watching and listening to my parents get super weirded out because essentially what happened was this. So

Speaker 1 the Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh was born in 1931 as Chandra Mohan Jain, J-A-I-N.

Speaker 1 And he began his career as a philosophy professor

Speaker 1 in India. And in the 60s, he traveled throughout India as a public speaker.
And he was a critic of socialism. He was a critic of Bandi and institutionalized religions.

Speaker 1 He often spoke against Jesus, calling him both a salesman and a madman.

Speaker 1 And he transitioned from professor to guru when he noticed there's a lot of money to be made off of unhappy, wealthy Westerners that would come to India searching for spiritual meaning in their lives.

Speaker 1 Amen. So he soon built a thriving enterprise with his lectures and group therapies.
He was pro-materialism. What? Yeah.
He was like change. He was the change it up guru.
So he was pro-somewhere.

Speaker 1 I just see the meme of him like sitting on fire and it just

Speaker 1 change it up with his big weird eyes.

Speaker 1 He was pro-materialism. He was,

Speaker 1 I said, anti-organized religion. And he was an advocate for a more open attitude toward human sexuality.

Speaker 1 Yeah. He was, he was, I mean, if he could only see Tumblr today, he would be so proud of the leaps and bounds.
To me, that's him saying, you have to fuck me.

Speaker 1 Well, that's exactly exactly you know what i mean well he got he became known as the sex guru in the press um which his argument was i've written two books on human sexuality and 38 books on um meditation but you call me the sex guru because he's he was all about how westerners were so puritanical and stuffy he's clearly never was fucking watched bob's burgers and drank the glass of wine which is like sometimes better than sex i mean well i mean it could be argued but

Speaker 1 but he was doing things like he was getting his little groups together.

Speaker 1 And then suddenly the idea was maybe you're so you're so pent up about your sex that maybe people need to have sex in front of me

Speaker 1 so that we all stop being so pent up about sex. It's basically this, this whole thing is the study in,

Speaker 1 you know, ultimate power corrupts up, absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

Speaker 1 Get it wrong. Beautiful words.
It's the easiest saying to remember because it's the same words at the beginning and and the end, and I still got it wrong. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely.
So,

Speaker 1 also,

Speaker 1 he had millions of dollars in unpaid taxes. So, he had to get the fuck out of India.
How did he have money?

Speaker 1 He was because he was charging all these people to come and be in his classes and workshops and listen to his him giving these speeches, learn how to meditate.

Speaker 1 Yoga hadn't been a thing yet, so they were learning about yoga, was like the secret, you know, amazing practice.

Speaker 1 How cool would it be to like for like I have a a couple thousand bucks, but to be millions in fucking debt? Like, you are living your best life. Hells yeah.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 Yeah, because you're beyond. Yeah, you're not like, you don't live in a fucking hovel.
No, no, not at all. I want to owe millions.
You will someday. Thank you.

Speaker 1 So what they did was they decide they're going to leave India and come to America.

Speaker 1 And so the plan is that he's going to build a utopian city for himself and 2,000 of his followers in south central Oregon.

Speaker 1 Yes, it makes perfect sense to me too.

Speaker 1 Well, so it's not, south central Oregon is empty. They were basically three hours east of Salem, east and south of Salem.
So they were in this kind of central valley that was super empty.

Speaker 1 It was just a bunch of ranches, and a lot of the ranches had fallen into disrepair. So they were, they were, it was almost like a desert-ish situation because they had just like over

Speaker 1 grazed the fields and stuff like that. It was all very brown and kind of shitty.
Oh, yeah. So, thanks, guys.
Right.

Speaker 1 So, they move in, and the plan was they were going to build housing compounds, warehouses, and support buildings so that their business enterprises that were once based in India could move to south central Oregon.

Speaker 1 And they initially applied for a permit to build housing for 90 people.

Speaker 1 But soon,

Speaker 1 they moved moved there and the numbers were in the hundreds immediately. And when he arrived, the Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh,

Speaker 1 he came to America and he was on a three, he was doing a three-year silent,

Speaker 1 I don't know, meditation or whatever. He wasn't talking.

Speaker 1 And so his voice was a woman named Ma Anand

Speaker 1 Sheila. Her real name was Sheila Patel.
She came from a very wealthy family in India, and she was kind of like his right-hand man.

Speaker 1 And so she

Speaker 1 made the deal to buy the big muddy ranch in right outside of Antelope in Oregon.

Speaker 1 And she was soft-spoken and charming, and she

Speaker 1 hosted a dance in the nearby town of Madras, where cowboys partied until dawn. She curried favor buying 50 head of cattle from the Wascow County Commissioner, even though the commune was vegetarian.

Speaker 1 You know, she was like making deals, kissing babies. And she basically closed the deal so that they could build their farming commune.

Speaker 1 But what she didn't know was that Oregon had very strict state zoning laws

Speaker 1 that really limited how many people and buildings could be erected onto ranch land based on the amount.

Speaker 1 As this development grew,

Speaker 1 they kept having to apply for more building permits and they kept going to

Speaker 1 the politicians and saying, oh, you know,

Speaker 1 we're just a farming commune, but we need

Speaker 1 more living quarters for the workers because there's so much abused rangeland that we need

Speaker 1 more people to help us fix it.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 the problem was that they were

Speaker 1 basically a bunch of rich, like college educated, well-off, kind of

Speaker 1 like it was pre-yuppie,

Speaker 1 it was early yuppie. It was like post-hippie,

Speaker 1 pre-yuppie. Yeah, they were the people, they were the people that eventually became yuppies that were like, oh, we don't have to live on the commune, we can just go to yoga classes.

Speaker 1 But at that time, they were kind of like, they had the hangover from the 60s of like the whole hippie thing had fallen apart. And then the Vietnam War bummed everybody out.

Speaker 1 And that's why a lot of people went to India in the first place to be like, what the fuck is life? Like, what is anybody doing? Suddenly taxes were, for them, were fucking nothing.

Speaker 1 What do you mean? Like they had Reagan. So taxes for rich were fucking

Speaker 1 nothing. And they were doing things like, yeah, they had, they were rich, so they would sell their Porsche and send their money to the ranch.
Oh.

Speaker 1 And then go live there.

Speaker 1 And they didn't, they just worked for free. So it was like they were giving all their materialistic

Speaker 1 stuff.

Speaker 1 they were like well i'm gonna help out and that's gonna make me feel better spiritually yeah and then they can kind of escape like the the structured world of taxes and having a job and all that stuff they're gonna put their whole life into this commune with the safety net of knowing that they could leave it at any point if they wanted to yeah because their parents still live in a really nice house in like marina del rey or whatever um

Speaker 1 they all had to wear red pink, red, or maroon clothing. And when they joined up, like this was the change.
They would, can't, I can't, there's a word for it, joining up is not it.

Speaker 1 But like they would go through like something and then initiation? It's like an initiation.

Speaker 1 The Bhagwa Sri Rajneesh would put a mandala around their neck, which is a beaded wooden necklace that would have a big picture of them, of him

Speaker 1 on the on it. And so they were like, all the, so all these people wearing red with these wooden bead necklaces suddenly start showing up in central Oregon.

Speaker 1 And if you've ever been to anywhere like this or even central California, it's like a little strip of Arkansas right here on the west coast.

Speaker 1 Like it's very farm, it's very Republican, it's very conservative.

Speaker 1 It's people who live far away from other people, they like things their way. And they don't want a bunch of fucking weirdo rich hippies in red clothing coming into their town 30, 40, 80 at a time.

Speaker 1 And that's exactly what was happening. So it's kind kind of awesome because, and they were all wearing red.
So, and like with shit in their hair and like, and they weren't, it wasn't a hippie thing.

Speaker 1 Like they weren't like drugged out and like, hey, peace, love. They were kind of like trying to, trying to take over.

Speaker 1 Did you watch the leftovers? I did. Like the first, I'd say the first seven episodes.
The first. The people in the white clothing that were like the smoking cult.
Yes. It sounds like that to me.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Just so creepy. Where they kind of like,

Speaker 1 when you see, there's tons of great documentaries about this whole thing and there's great footage, but it's there is a lot of that, like, there's a little of the leftover, like dancing in Golden Gate Park, like ecstatic dancing and group kind of hangouts and stuff, but it's so much more,

Speaker 1 there's so much more of a business aspect to it. You can tell that they're trying to monetize spirituality.

Speaker 1 Well, the difference between a 70s cult and an 80s cult is so, probably so fucking different. Yeah.
For sure.

Speaker 1 And this one had that thing of like, they just started showing up in droves and freaking locals out badly. Sure.
And in their weird red clothing.

Speaker 1 And they were kind of like, even the, the one documentary I was watching, the guy who now is probably in his like late 60s, 70s, gray hair, like clearly not in it anymore, but so, they were just aggressive because they were just so quick to be like, well, you, you were racist or you were against our religion or you were anti, you know, you were xenophobic or whatever.

Speaker 1 It's like, yeah, maybe, except for that, if you were starting a commune with 90 people, that's one thing.

Speaker 1 But basically,

Speaker 1 they ended up having 2,000 followers. And you infiltrated the town.
They infiltrated a town, Antelope and Madras, where they're like kind of their two closest towns.

Speaker 1 And so basically what happened is instead of it being a small commune,

Speaker 1 it turned into this big thing and they had to keep going to the city and applying for more permits and more permits and saying, we need it for this.

Speaker 1 We need, oh, sorry, we didn't realize and we just need it for this. And so the city had to start going, no, like, this is crazy.

Speaker 1 This land is not zoned for you guys to start a city, essentially. And at first, they were trying to be, they didn't want to come off as like hicks and like people who are like against outsiders.

Speaker 1 They didn't want to.

Speaker 1 come off bat. Also, them coming there, they actually did the thing that they were saying.
They were building,

Speaker 1 they built a dam. They brought the water table up.
Like the whole, the entire valley that they lived in became bright green.

Speaker 1 When you see these, it's kind of amazing, these helicopter shots of the area. And it's like bright green.
And they have like, or they started organic farming.

Speaker 1 So it's like kind of a mass organic farming where

Speaker 1 somebody in this documentary was saying, Once they had everything built up and there was like a main street and there was

Speaker 1 a mall. They had a mall.
They had restaurants.

Speaker 1 oh my god they would give tours to locals like you can come and see what we're doing we're not like trying to be hide anything that in the around central oregon they'd be like the only good place to eat is it as raj rajneeshpuram was the name of the town

Speaker 1 or you know what eventually they tried to make into a town people would go there to eat because it was like really good organic food.

Speaker 1 It was kind of like the original, the original farm to table situation, but they were doing it with this,

Speaker 1 it was a culty version of it, essentially.

Speaker 1 Because they still did, you know, and he also, the Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh would just come out and sit there, but he wasn't talking. So he wasn't like preaching or saying anything to anybody.

Speaker 1 They would like, and sometimes he just wouldn't come out at all. Like, so he, in the, when he first got there, he would make appearances, but then after a while, he just wasn't doing it.

Speaker 1 And basically, there was just a bunch of people

Speaker 1 like like manual labor farming and doing shit for free and dedicating their whole life to like building up this what eventually was becoming a city that's what i was thinking is i bet the the locals would be so much more stoked if you were bringing in jobs but you're not you're just hire you know everyone who just is a fucking

Speaker 1 cult member is doing it for you the people it was good for were people that owned backhoes and like big like caterpillar earth movers there was a couple people it was good for but not on the whole, no.

Speaker 1 On the whole, it was like, and the other problem was, so they, they wanted these permits, they wanted to keep expanding, and they started get being told no.

Speaker 1 So they started infiltrating like the local government. So they would go in and like demand per, they would demand to see permits or files or papers at the Wasco County courthouse.

Speaker 1 And there's two people that work there because it's like a courthouse in the middle of nowhere in this county that doesn't have that many people.

Speaker 1 And 40 of them would go down and be like, we demand to see it. So

Speaker 1 it started off very aggressive. And of course,

Speaker 1 it was already like, you're all wearing red and jumping around. And now you're like, we want to see this, we want to do this.
Then they have.

Speaker 1 they have elections and they end up electing a bunch of the Rajneeshis, as they're called,

Speaker 1 onto the city council or onto the whatever county,

Speaker 1 whatever it would be, county people, county group.

Speaker 1 So that they suddenly now are the ones that are, because they're trying to get their people in so that they get told yes. Smart.

Speaker 1 Because what they want to do, they really did want to build a city and they wanted to bring more and more people there. And they're starting to make serious money.

Speaker 1 And the other reason they said that they had the tours is because they want to make sure parents who like those rich parents we're talking about could come and see where their children were and what they were dedicating their life to, that it wasn't some secret cult, that they could come and shop in the mall and buy a bunch of red clothes if they wanted to, or eat their organic pizza or whatever, and that everything was chill.

Speaker 1 And then they dance around ecstatically. There'd be discos.

Speaker 1 It was like a whole thing. And then they'd leave, going, I guess it's fine, and keep on giving them the money.
And they were making a shit fucking ton of money.

Speaker 1 Now, the other thing was that the Bhagwan Sri Raj Nish

Speaker 1 said when he

Speaker 1 went into silence and he put that woman, Ma'anand Sheila,

Speaker 1 who was also known as Sheila Silverman, because she was from India, but she had married

Speaker 1 an American

Speaker 1 here, and she, you know, was an American citizen, I guess.

Speaker 1 Ma'anand Sheila, who everyone called Sheila, she was in charge. And then he had four other women beneath her, and they ran the entire city.

Speaker 1 And his, he, the Bhagwan Sri Rajni said he wanted a city run by women and he wanted like strong, strong

Speaker 1 women to be in power. And what would a city look like if women, if it was a matriarchy, basically?

Speaker 1 So everyone's kind of like into that idea. Because what harm could there be?

Speaker 1 And they had these women that were the tour guides that when you went there to see the cult your child had just moved to and started wearing all red clothes, it would be all these beautiful, they call themselves the Twinkies, and they would guide you around and be like, here's the, look, here's the mall and here's this, and I'm really pretty and we're all great and we eat lettuce all the time and everything's good.

Speaker 1 That's our fucking tour, the Twinkie tour.

Speaker 1 So it's just all,

Speaker 1 they're trying to make sure people have positive, it's positive PR all the time.

Speaker 1 The problem is.

Speaker 1 The Jonestown cults and the Jonestown massacre had only happened three years before.

Speaker 1 So aside from locals being locals and not being that into a bunch of hippie weirdos coming into their town.

Speaker 1 Everybody, the press, everybody was scared of anything like that happening in America. And it was close to San Francisco where Jonestown started, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, it was relatively, not really like a plane flight away.
Okay. A long car ride away.
Okay. But still, but yes, closer than other places.

Speaker 1 And yes, that's where.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 You could drive up the five and get there.

Speaker 1 But yes, I mean, it's that sensitivity of however many people died at Jonestown, 800, something like that, hundreds?

Speaker 1 They're not going to just let a bunch of people,

Speaker 1 you know, getting super into this one religion and starting a city about it because it's also that thing of the separation of church and state. Right.

Speaker 1 And that idea of like, what's actually behind this?

Speaker 1 The other thing, too,

Speaker 1 was that

Speaker 1 They were making so much money that the Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh, one of his favorite things was Rolls-Royces.

Speaker 1 And so by 1984, he had the largest private collection of Rolls-Royces in America. He had 94.
Holy fuck, who the fuck?

Speaker 1 And that was his pro-materialism thing.

Speaker 1 It didn't seem like other people got to be very materialistic, though, because I don't think they were getting paid to like fucking run those backhoes and like run entire huge lettuce farms or whatever.

Speaker 1 You don't fucking buy 94

Speaker 1 Rolls-Royces with fucking lettuce farms. No.
No, there's some serious cash getting stacked that he gets to spend.

Speaker 1 So his thing was he, they were, because the relationship between the citizens of central Oregon and the Rajneeshis was getting,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 heated, let's say,

Speaker 1 he no longer was doing, making appearances. So what he would do was get into one of his many Rolls Royces and drive.

Speaker 1 And so he would just drive down the road and all the Rajneeshis would line up in their weird clothes and they would jump and stand and clap and sing and whatever.

Speaker 1 And he would drive by and wave to them. Shut up.

Speaker 1 Drive with no hands. He would do his hands and prayer hands and then bow to them as he was driving down the thing.

Speaker 1 And that was the really famous, like, that's what I remember as like, you know, a 12-year-old original. Did you see all this? Oh, yeah.
You can watch all this on YouTube.

Speaker 1 It's pretty amazing. And they, and they showed it on the news all the time because it was this this thing.
It was like, oh, this is an interesting starting up

Speaker 1 in central Oregon. And then it was like, hey, have you seen this lately? Well, then after a while,

Speaker 1 their side of things say that they tried to have a festival and the local authorities said, you can't have a festival unless you have a security force.

Speaker 1 And so they started... walking around with Uzis.

Speaker 1 So when he would go to do his drive, there would be two dudes with like all the red clothes, but then with like berets to the side carrying Uzis as theirs. Berets are fucking always bad.

Speaker 1 Berets are not a good sign. Nah, dude.
So, so,

Speaker 1 so they basically have their own security force. And it was serious enough where they got trained at the state police academy.
They went off and got trained as a security force and came back.

Speaker 1 They feel better, though. I mean, yeah.
They call themselves a peace force.

Speaker 1 Because you need Uzis when you're a fucking peace force. I mean, now the other thing is they were getting threatened a lot.
Okay. Of course.
You know, a lot of letters, a lot of phone calls.

Speaker 1 And they owned a hotel in Portland that got bombed, that got firebombed.

Speaker 1 So once the firebombing started happening, there was more and more guns that, and like the security force thing kind of came up more and more. Did anyone die in that?

Speaker 1 Because I wonder if they did it themselves to like be like, to get sympathy or like get a reason to get those guns.

Speaker 1 Well, they actually would use the negative press when they, when they would, like something like that, anything where it showed that the locals or people of Oregon were like after them.

Speaker 1 Because there were protesters that would be on the city. They would be like, get the hell out of town.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 They would take that footage and send it to the other,

Speaker 1 I want to say ashrams, but I don't know if that's the right word. Their other hangouts around the country and around the world.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Sex.

Speaker 1 Sex. Sex.

Speaker 1 I wonder if those they would send that footage and then go, look how we're being attacked.

Speaker 1 And they would send them money. But I wonder if those protesters were fucking ashram dudes.
Oh, even. I like it.
Like, so they're just propaganda. Yeah.
Could be. I believe in that.

Speaker 1 But I think that people were super like,

Speaker 1 get the fuck out of here. Like, what are you guys doing? Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, but here's where they went wrong. They, there was a big, important vote coming up.

Speaker 1 So they started bussing in homeless people from all around the country to come and live at the Rajneesh Puram in the city.

Speaker 1 They were saying that they were doing it for this, their spiritual life, and because they wanted them to. But these were all just homeless people that they were finding on the streets.

Speaker 1 And these people would get there and they'd be given clothes, they'd be given three hots in a cot, and be like, Hey, you can go, you can go work on the lettuce farm and have something to do.

Speaker 1 And there's, it's sad. There's guys that like talk to the cameras and be like, Yeah, there's nothing for me out there.
I might as well be here and actually have something to do.

Speaker 1 And like, I'm not, I don't have to worry about getting stabbed stabbed on the street.

Speaker 1 So they ended up busing in 4,000 homeless people. Holy fuck.
So that in the next Wasco County election, they basically start to take over politics.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 what ends up happening is the people that were in place, you know, the people that were already the county supervisors or whatever they are.

Speaker 1 did this thing where when everybody showed up to vote that day, they said, if you are newly registered to vote,

Speaker 1 we're putting a a like a ban on your vote and you, and we were taking this to court. That's not how that works.

Speaker 1 Well, but you can do, I guess there's some, some circumstance they were like pulling out an old law or whatever, like saying, you can vote, but you have to first go to this trial and like be at a hearing to prove that you're here to vote, that you're really a citizen of this sit, of this city.

Speaker 1 Because they knew exactly what they were doing. And so then they tried to turn it into this woman, Sheila, tried to be like, I'm voting for you.

Speaker 1 This is, because a lot of these people were like Vietnam vet

Speaker 1 homeless people. I mean, they were the people that like had been screwed over truly by society.

Speaker 1 And so conceptually, it was a really nice idea. But once

Speaker 1 that happened, and of course, nobody was going to go to the hearing.

Speaker 1 Nobody was going to go sit there and be talk to a judge about how they, yes, they were here and they were really a citizen and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 So so few of them went that and like 95% of the locals showed up to vote, you know, highest voting turnout ever for the actual locals that that

Speaker 1 none of the Rajneeshis won anything. And it went completely in favor of the locals.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, then

Speaker 1 they just dump all these homeless guys. Most of them went to Portland, but they just...
They just sent them out of town. Oh my God.

Speaker 1 And dumped them in just like close by, in like no, local places of like, well, well, here you go. Didn't work.
Bye. Yeah.
And that's when it all started to fall apart.

Speaker 1 Where it was like, yeah, all of this, like, you could say that you're doing this for the spirituality.

Speaker 1 That would be a beautiful thing if there's a place for people to go who are homeless, who are on the streets and have nowhere to go. But this is clearly not a charity or anything.

Speaker 1 You're not going to let these people come here and stay.

Speaker 1 You were clearly using them. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That sucks. And yeah, once that vote didn't turn out the way they wanted it to, it all got exposed.

Speaker 1 The other thing that happened was that they went to check on the housing.

Speaker 1 The local sheriff went to check on the housing for these people because there was kind of like a tent city. They didn't have enough like building housing for them because there's so many.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But they did have

Speaker 1 tent housing that they used during their festivals. And so the sheriff was going up there to make sure that there was like proper housing for that many people.

Speaker 1 And when they got up there, there was like a huge caterpillar earthmover that was blocking the entire road. And

Speaker 1 the sheriff had to basically turn around and go back to town. That's because they were like an actual caterpillar.
And I got so excited. James and the giant feed.
Oh,

Speaker 1 but a caterpillar that huge, though. Great.

Speaker 1 Go on. Sorry.
That's upsetting. I know.

Speaker 1 It would be all like

Speaker 1 furry.

Speaker 1 So anyway, they basically are like, we got to call in higher ups. This is crazy and something's really happening.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 sorry, I have to get to my page. So they have officials

Speaker 1 from around the county go and visit and be like, what the hell is going on? And while they were there,

Speaker 1 I'm trying to find the name.

Speaker 1 Can you,

Speaker 1 while you're looking, can you imagine? So the governor of, was it the governor of San Francisco who went to Jonestown to check on everyone? Yeah, I don't think he was the governor.

Speaker 1 He was something else. Yes, he was a bigwig.
So he shows up to check on his citizens who had moved to Jonestown. Yeah.
And he ends up getting shot and killed by,

Speaker 1 which triggered and started off the Jonestown massacre. Yes.
Can you imagine? And that was three years before those fucking city officials being like, we're looking into this shit.

Speaker 1 How terrifying must that be? Yes. And a lot of them talk about it.
It's really

Speaker 1 an interesting thing worth watching because they were so scared. At first, they were scared to look like racists and to look like people that were just rejecting people out of hand.

Speaker 1 But then after a while, they knew that they couldn't, like, they knew that this had turned into a thing that was beyond just them, like, going in and arresting people, that that was not possible.

Speaker 1 And the sheriff,

Speaker 1 who at the time, I mean, like, now he's aged very well because now he must be like in his late 60s and at the time he was like in his 30s and he was like someone goes well are they like a person from the press goes are they blocking the road and he goes well i don't know they're blocking it but i mean it's blocked so i guess we'll just go like they're absolutely not trying to be in conflict with these people but at this point it's like a welfare check

Speaker 1 Yes, exactly. Like they're trying to say, yeah, we just want to make sure everything is kind of what it's, what you're claiming it is.
Yeah. Well, then Sheila shows up

Speaker 1 and she's like she's like kind of in everybody's face it's really interesting too when you see her she gets interviewed a couple times and she actually picks up her hand and points into the face of the interviewer or into the camera where it's like aggressive what are you doing yeah like if this is also chill and spiritual

Speaker 1 but you can tell she's like it turned into like yeah we're like you're fighting for your commune but after a while that's not really what's happened. This is a power move and a power grab.

Speaker 1 Like they're trying to take over. like they want

Speaker 1 they want they want the state for themselves or they want the area for themselves okay so anyway um i can't find this guy's name basically

Speaker 1 basically the

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 fuck

Speaker 1 the oh i don't have the name but it's three county commissioners so they went to tour the ranch And while they were there, they were given glasses of water. And

Speaker 1 when they get home, they become seriously ill. Come on, and they had been poisoned with salmonella.
Holy fuck, but they can't prove that it like they can't prove it.

Speaker 1 Like they get very ill and then they're just kind of out, and it's so that they can't go to work. Then

Speaker 1 it took them a full year to like tie it all back and get all the proof.

Speaker 1 Then

Speaker 1 around

Speaker 1 all central and southern Oregon,

Speaker 1 there are reported 751 cases of salmonella. Shut the fuck up.
And people,

Speaker 1 45 people were hospitalized. There were no fatalities, but all of these people got it like one after the other.

Speaker 1 And it turned out that Rajneeshis were going out to restaurants and sprinkling salmonella onto salad bars and putting it into salad dresses. How do you get salmonella to sprinkle? I don't know.

Speaker 1 In my mind, like you have to wring out a steak into a fucking

Speaker 1 I mean, they had the setup that they had on these farms

Speaker 1 and these ranches. I mean, I don't, I could not tell you, but they figured it out.
And I mean, like, they could have had like labs or other things on these farms. I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 All they know is that they were, that these salad bars were poisoned. And the idea was that they were going to keep voters from going.

Speaker 1 Okay. It was the idea.
Jesus.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 the last thing that happened, which I think is kind of amazing, is a Rajneeshi named

Speaker 1 Ma Anand Puja

Speaker 1 heard that politician James Kamini was at St. Vincent Hospital.

Speaker 1 So she went there and the idea was that she was going to inject a deadly mixture into his intravenous tube that would stop his heart. Holy fuck.

Speaker 1 But when she arrived and went into his hospital room, she saw that he didn't have an intervenus

Speaker 1 hookup, but he was just laying in the bed. So she just panicked and turned around and left.

Speaker 1 But the plan was, they later found out when they raided the place and got all the like secret documents and everything, that the plan was they were going to kill him. Oh my God.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 This was, so basically, this was Sheila's plan to like take over Oregon.

Speaker 1 So where's she now she fucking fled she fled to west germany oh dear um oh actually when they when the cops finally got in the the um ultimate plan was they were going to put poison into oregon's water supply

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 uh

Speaker 1 and people they also had all of the rooms bugged at the ranch

Speaker 1 and they were they had like files on rajneeshi's in the ranch so they like they weren't only going to do harm to to outsiders, they also were like keeping people in line and doing weird shit within the ranch.

Speaker 1 Like, there was a lot of crazy shit going on. Um,

Speaker 1 the Bhagwan

Speaker 1 Sri Rajneesh, she basically left. Um,

Speaker 1 he came out and like agreed with the like cooperated with the authorities, told him everything, broke his three-year silence, um,

Speaker 1 uh, and then basically

Speaker 1 tried to get onto a plane. Uh,

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 he

Speaker 1 tried to flee by Learjet. A plane came in, and it was a big enough place where they could land a plane.
And then they got off.

Speaker 1 There was the flight plan was that they were going to refuel in Charlotte, North Carolina, and then they were going to go back, I guess, to India.

Speaker 1 But in Charlotte, they landed and the cops arrested him. Good.
And they deported him because he was the whole time he was on a visa that was like had expired long ago. Then they found her

Speaker 1 and uh she

Speaker 1 served three years of a sentence before she was deported off of u.s soil um and the bhagwan shri rajneesh died in 1990 um the camp was converted into a christian camp but uh so it's legit now yeah uh but then in 1996 it was destroyed by fire and all all of the structures were destroyed damn it that'd be so cool to do a live episode from there um oh my god could you imagine we drive up to that lake.

Speaker 1 But also just to keep your eyes peeled, because

Speaker 1 he eventually, before he died, he changed his name to Osho, which is actually a Japanese honorific.

Speaker 1 And so if you see quotes on the internet from Osho, it's actually the Bagwan tree right now. Shut the fuck up.
Yeah. Just so you know, it's not some wise Japanese sage from long ago.

Speaker 1 Does he quote shit on the internet? What does he do? Yeah, you see quotes from Osho all the time. And it's that stuff of like, you know,

Speaker 1 you know, we are here for a short amount of time. It's all, it's like shit I've said.
I mean, it's just,

Speaker 1 it's just that stuff of like, you know,

Speaker 1 so he's still practicing. No, he's dead.
But his like, because he changed his name, he doesn't have the

Speaker 1 mark. Fucking cults, man.
Cults, dude, my fave. They're so good.

Speaker 1 Anyway, that's mine. I love it.
No one died. My apologies.
No, they tried. They tried and they

Speaker 1 were bad at it. They tried hard.
Also, the locals tried too.

Speaker 1 There was lots of like bad bumper stickers that were like gun sites with, you know, it was not a good time in the early 80s in central Oregon. I haven't heard about that.
That's so cool. It was crazy.

Speaker 1 Oh, we're supposed to talk about one thing, though. It was good.

Speaker 1 Sweet. Okay.

Speaker 1 Let's tell each other. I think yours is that you bought your niece fucking Doc Martens for Christmas.
Don't do mine for me.

Speaker 1 So we get into a fight at the positive point. Okay, well, then mine is that you bought your fucking me stock market because that's the coolest thing I've ever heard in my life.

Speaker 1 That was a pretty good one. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Let's not do it anymore. I mean, we have to think this hard about.
We just take a second. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, let's give up.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Life is good.

Speaker 1 There was something while we were talking that I thought of, and then I'm like, don't sidebar it again. What?

Speaker 1 I can't remember.

Speaker 1 I wish I should have written it down. We should take notes during the week.
We should take notes while we're talking. We should treat this like a fucking thing.
I don't know, though. Should we?

Speaker 1 I mean, it's fucking, it's fucking ready.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, there's so many things in my life that are good, and I just can't remember one of them. I guess that I'm moving into a fucking real apartment.
Like a grown up,

Speaker 1 a grown-up person. We just got an apartment, and I'm scared, but it's it's exciting yeah that's very exciting you know what the thing this week that i'm that i'm happy about

Speaker 1 my dish i'm gonna have a dishwasher what's yours fuck yeah it's fucking real detectives oh yeah that's it sorry you got no i was happy for you um

Speaker 1 there's a new there's not it's not a new show actually it just the first season is on netflix but the second season i think is on regular tv if you dvr it um and someone tweeted us and said thanks so much for the recommendation of Real Detective.

Speaker 1 I love it and I'm obsessed with it. You're welcome.

Speaker 1 We never did. You're welcome.
We didn't give that recommendation. You're welcome.

Speaker 1 But it's this suit. Here's why I love it.
It's like I survived, but it's first person from the guy who solved the crime.

Speaker 1 And it is, they're like, you love them. You're so in love with them.
They're so like

Speaker 1 low-key, manly, but, but super haunted because there's these cases that you're like, the case is really good. Oh my God.
They're incredible. And are there like real photo, like crime scene photos?

Speaker 1 No, there's really good reenactments.

Speaker 1 Is that a thing? Really good reenactments. There it is.
Because they actually, there's actors you recognize that are in these reenactments. That's fun.

Speaker 1 And they do it in a way where you're just, it's similar to,

Speaker 1 I don't know, any, yeah, I think Crime to Remember is the only one that has really good reenactments. It's similar to that, but it's less artistic and more down to business.

Speaker 1 Of like, the guy tells you this is how it was for me, and then you see him do the thing. I'm into

Speaker 1 actors that I know and not ones that I'm like, oh, God, you're struggling, and you got paid $110 for this reenactment. Right? No, this is very cool.

Speaker 1 And also, it's because it's from, I just, there's something about a homicide detective that's just like insanely

Speaker 1 you, it's just pure.

Speaker 1 They're my Brad Pitt. I get it.
I dig it. Well, it's just bold.
It's like, what a hard job. Totally.
What a horrible job. Totally.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Pretty cool.
God bless them. God bless.

Speaker 1 Go to myfavorite murder.com for things and stuff. And

Speaker 1 thanks for listening. Thanks, everybody.
We like you guys. We sure do.
Stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
Bye, bye, bye. Elvis, you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 Oh, did that work? It did.

Speaker 1 Jesus.

Speaker 1 Bye. Bye.

Speaker 1 He's excited about that one. Oh, man.
He's been waiting.

Speaker 1 Okay, we're back from Karen's story. Karen, any updates? I mean, yes.
Here's what's weird. I remember doing this story based on Wild, Wild Country, the documentary on Netflix.

Speaker 1 No, it hadn't come out yet. It hadn't come out.
I did it like a year before. That's right.
Which is so crazy.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's because it was a hometown in that way where the takeover of that town was in the like nightly news in our town because it was Northern California, Oregon. So we were like neighbors.

Speaker 1 So I guess it doesn't surprise me. It's just this weird kind of 10 years later where I'm like, oh, wait.
Your memory has deceived you. It's just weird.

Speaker 1 It's all blending together as like, it's almost like.

Speaker 1 Was I trying to think of a story that hadn't had a documentary done yet or something? Well, I had never heard of it until you did it. So, I mean, it's wild.
So crazy. Okay.
so let's see.

Speaker 1 Obviously, then this documentary where we're talking about, it was a Netflix documentary that came out in 2018 called Wild, Wild Country. Definitely watch it.

Speaker 1 If you haven't seen it, it's got unbelievable footage from that time and all the kind of the players.

Speaker 1 And you can really see what it looks like when basically the East Oregon countryside just gets invaded and taken over by people who at first are like, we're just hippies and we want to love each other.

Speaker 1 And then they arm the shit out of the

Speaker 1 AK-47s, as far as the eye can see.

Speaker 1 So since the release of that documentary, survivors of childhood rape at the hands of the cult members have begun to come forward, writing articles, posting on social media that the series notably left out their experiences.

Speaker 1 So it's a, it was a big part of the victimology, I guess, of what happened at this cult. And it didn't get touched on.
probably because it's like, how do you share the,

Speaker 1 if you're there to tell the story of the main lady that poisoned that salad bar?

Speaker 1 You're, it's like, there's so many things. That's the whole story.
Yeah, that should be the whole documentary. But we've seen many, many documentaries that include all the bad stuff.

Speaker 1 And it's dark as it gets where it's like, why would you be leaving this part out? That's interesting.

Speaker 1 So, a group of these survivors worked together to create the documentary Children of the Cult, which was just released last year.

Speaker 1 And they basically were making it to fill the gaps left by the Wild, Wild Country documentary. So those those are, you can go see.
They call him Osho in that,

Speaker 1 but it is Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh. Oh, I would like to announce that since this episode or since I moved, I haven't lived without a dishwasher since

Speaker 1 unless it broke, which they do all the time. Yeah, they do.
Having a dishwasher to me, like we had one as a kid that literally didn't work a day in my life. So it was like storage.
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 So having a dishwasher to me is like luxury. It's pretty.
I would love to cue the moving on up theme song to the Jeffersons right now because that is really what that time felt like. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It was like you moved on up into that split level pod loft apartment. Yep.

Speaker 1 And I got myself out of foreclosure. Right.
And we really. We really were like, yeah, we're going to do this thing.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It was like, it was tentative where it's like, okay, something good is happening. It's continuing to happen.
So maybe we can take these little steps.

Speaker 1 Like I can move out of, we can move out of our rent control department. Yes.
Like it's going to be okay. Right.
You know what I mean? When I thought I would like live there forever,

Speaker 1 it was just those little baby steps that were happening. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Dishwashers.
So crazy. For everyone.

Speaker 1 So this episode was originally called the golden anniversary episode as our 50th. But we can name it something different if we're naming it today.
We have to call it Sheriff Kilgara.

Speaker 1 That is the funniest fucking thing I've ever heard of my life. Oh my God.
Yeah. Sheriff Kilgara.
So funny. But I didn't realize this was the episode where you coined your phrase however, which is one.

Speaker 1 Did you say it before? Who knows? I think it's the first time maybe I heard about it.

Speaker 1 And then also we could call it, come on over to the corner.

Speaker 1 The corner. Yeah.
The corrections. The corner.
The corrections corner. The place that's cozy.
There's no judgment.

Speaker 1 I love that we pretend it's a corner and not the whole goddamn house and not an auditorium.

Speaker 1 It's every seat in the gigantic theater that is my favorite murder. That's right.
And they're all like in there, no aisle seats, so your knees always hurt.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know. You know? No.
Well, thanks for listening to another episode of Rewind, episode 50 of Rewind. Wow.
50 of these. 50.
We'll keep doing them, I guess, right? Right? Might as well.

Speaker 1 We're into it now. We're in, we're doing it.
We're doing it. We're no, there's no going back.
None. All right.
Well, thanks you guys for listening. Stay sexy.
And don't get murdered. Goodbye.

Speaker 1 Elvis, do you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 No one brings out your inner monster like a bad neighbor.

Speaker 1 Claire Danes and Matthew Reese find that out for themselves in The Beast in Me, a new eight-episode drama from the team that brought you homeland. Danes plays Aggie Wiggs, a grieving writer.

Speaker 1 Reese plays Niall Jarvis, her new neighbor and possible murderer. But who's the monster and who's the bad neighbor? That's another story.

Speaker 1 It's a game of cat and mouse that sets them on a collision course with fatal consequences. The Beast in Me, now playing only on Netflix.
You will not want to miss this. Goodbye.
Goodbye.

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