Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 72: Steven It Out

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Speaker 2 Hello.

Speaker 2 And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Speaker 1 Every Wednesday, we recap our old episodes with all new commentary, updates, and insights. And you're welcome to listen.

Speaker 2 Today, we're recapping episode 72, which we named Steven It Out.

Speaker 1 This episode came out on June 8th, 2017, which is also Georgia's birthday.

Speaker 2 My birthday!

Speaker 2 I was turning 37. Let's listen to the intro of episode 72.

Speaker 2 Welcome

Speaker 11 to my favorite murder. That's Karen Kilgariff.
That's Georgia Horstark. And here we are.
Looking at Stephen Ray Morris as if to say,

Speaker 11 Hey,

Speaker 11 what's up?

Speaker 11 I'm with you.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 11 And that's what the podcast is all about. Two people trying to talk at the same time.

Speaker 11 Saying the same thing.

Speaker 11 Yep,

Speaker 11 I can't.

Speaker 11 I can't either.

Speaker 11 The finger does help either. We're bad at this podcast.

Speaker 11 I'm bad at improv. I'm bad at

Speaker 11 what other people want. We were bad at this podcast is because we couldn't say the same things at the exact same time.
Yeah, that's what makes you bad at podcasts.

Speaker 11 In every article, they're like, they're okay, but they can't say the same. We're the same.
So time.

Speaker 11 Oh, shit. Time.
See? Another. If you listen to episodes, what is the 70? What is this, Stephen?

Speaker 11 Two. 72.
72. I know.

Speaker 11 Stephen.

Speaker 11 How do you know? How do you know that? Because I'm in that

Speaker 11 on the email. I'm the

Speaker 11 info email. I don't check that.
I know. I get overwhelmed.
It's funny how you and I both just get overwhelmed at different things.

Speaker 11 And so we do the thing that we're not overwhelmed by, and the other person just like doesn't fucking pay attention to it. That's right.

Speaker 11 Like you are, you're the description person and the naming of the podcast person and who gets back when people are like, hey, do you want this podcast to be posted? And I'm like, no, I can't.

Speaker 11 I can't do it. I don't want to be in this.
And then

Speaker 11 you're the merch person.

Speaker 11 You're the magazine person. What magazine? You get us all the magazine subscriptions that we want.
What? Better homes and gardens, sunset, popular mechanics.

Speaker 11 If that were my job for this podcast, I would be sad.

Speaker 11 You would be sad to get magazines? Here, I got you a copy of from four months ago of Psychology Today. It's right here.
Thanks. From four months ago, I kind of have been sleeping on the job.

Speaker 11 That's so nice of you.

Speaker 11 Well, I guess I'll read it now. Would you? Okay, let's see.
Can you edit this out? Okay, and we're back. And

Speaker 11 welcome. Karen, how is psychology today?

Speaker 11 Oh, oh, I thought you meant we're back starting over. Oh, hell no.
We never start over.

Speaker 11 God, that's a good magazine. Just filled with advice.
It is actually a really fucking good magazine. It's good.

Speaker 11 You're like, don't be sarcastic about psychology today.

Speaker 11 Even for one moment. Talk to me that

Speaker 11 dare you talk to my magazine that way. I got my mom a subscription to that one year being like, listen, can you get your fucking shit together? How about you read this? Subtlety.
Did she do it?

Speaker 11 Yeah, she loved it. I don't think she understood.
I don't think she is self-aware enough to understand the messaging that it was pointed. Sure.
Although she did text me.

Speaker 11 We got in a fight like a week ago. And I was pissed off at her and I tweeted something like, the hardest job in the world is raising your mother.

Speaker 11 Thinking that, knowing that she doesn't read Twitter. She's not on Twitter.
My dad wrote back, you're telling me.

Speaker 11 And I was like, you know, Marty, Marty.

Speaker 11 But then when we were making up, like a couple days later, she wrote, and I know how hard it is to raise your mother. And I was like, oh,

Speaker 11 delete.

Speaker 11 Do you think Marty threw it in her face? No, I think she saw it. You think she checks now? Yeah.
Wow. Yeah.
Shit. Yeah.
But I can't imagine she listens to this podcast.

Speaker 11 Well, if she does, hey, Janet. Janet, what's up, hey? Hi, best friend.

Speaker 11 Remember when we partied in Chicago together? We had a good time. Where were we?

Speaker 11 Chicago. No, where were we? We were Chicago, 2016.
It was Christmas.

Speaker 11 Oh, my God. I'm sure we've talked about this on this podcast, but one of my favorite things that's ever happened to me is

Speaker 11 the night before our show, we got in. In Chicago.
In Chicago, 2016.

Speaker 11 December, Christmas time.

Speaker 11 Got in. I'm there.
My sister, Adrian, and Audrey,

Speaker 11 the four of us went out to try to eat something, but it was kind of late at night. So nothing around, and it was fucking freezing.

Speaker 11 It was like 50 degrees. It was windy, so everyone shut up from everywhere else.
It was also windy. Oh, 50.
That's nothing. I'm from Alaska.
We don't care. No, there was wind everywhere.

Speaker 11 Listen, I'm on the North Pole. That's nothing.
It's a narwhal.

Speaker 11 One the other guy's like, what a dick. The other narwhal, can we get a cartoon of a narwhal saying that? And another one going like, what a dick.
Shut up, you dick.

Speaker 11 Bye, Mr. Narwhal.
I'm completely ripping that off from Elf. Okay, but.
Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

Speaker 11 State your sources. We go into a Waldgreens and we all buy hats.
That's how cold it is. We're California girls.
We had no idea our layers weren't going to work.

Speaker 11 So we start walking, just trying to find anywhere to eat.

Speaker 11 And we walk and we walk, and it's freezing. We're like basically fighting the elements.
And finally, we're on a corner and I turn to this girl that's standing next to us on the corner.

Speaker 11 And I was like, hey, do you know any, like even a diner anywhere at a restaurant that's open around here? And this girl, she was like in her probably mid-20s, maybe even a little older.

Speaker 11 Like, maybe a little older. No, I just need for this to come out of her mouth.
She goes,

Speaker 11 I don't know, but you know what you can do?

Speaker 11 You could Google it. But she wasn't being sarcastic.
Like, that's something my sister would say to me with so driping with sarcasm, or I'd be like, oh, you really got me.

Speaker 11 But this girl thought she was giving us great advice.

Speaker 11 She was like, oh, oh, but you know what you could do? You could Google it. Try to Google it.
I was like, oh my God, you're so right.

Speaker 11 Have you ever, have you ever said that to someone in a sarcastic way where it's like, someone will be like, you're like, here's my address to get to my house. I'm like, what's the cross street?

Speaker 11 And then you're like, I don't know. Let me Google it.
And then you Google it and tell them.

Speaker 3 No, have you ever done that?

Speaker 11 That specific exchange is mean. No, never mind.

Speaker 11 You're saying reverse it and be sarcastic. I get you.
Yes. I've never done it.
I'm positive I've, well, I mean, like, that's just saying, have you been a bitch in this certain way? Absolutely. 100%.

Speaker 11 1,000%. To be a bitch.
Have you done it? Uh-huh. Yeah.
That was, you sang aha to me just now. Yeah.
No. Even that was bitchy.
Anywhere on that bitch color wheel, I've been there times 20.

Speaker 11 I mean, it's a beautiful rainbow. I like it.
There's subtleties, there's shades. Yeah.

Speaker 11 I mean, oftentimes it's necessary, like the way I answered the girl who sincerely told me to Google a restaurant, and I was like, Thank you.

Speaker 11 In a way where she's like, You're welcome and walked away thinking she'd made a new friend. Where I was like, I just tried to stab you with my words, but okay.

Speaker 11 Her brain was frozen. It was really cold.
Her brain was frozen. She was probably shit-faced.
Shit-faced. And just really good at covering it up.
Oh.

Speaker 11 Any, do you have any actual business? No. Like, I met a couple Murderinos at the Ryan Adams show over the weekend that were really nice.
Cool. That weren't like, that were really cool.
Cool.

Speaker 11 Shook hands.

Speaker 11 They're like business people. Yeah, they're like, nice.

Speaker 11 Thank you.

Speaker 11 Oh, did you meet the executive of GM?

Speaker 11 Yeah, we shook hands. I had a nice strong firm handshake.
Had a glass of really expensive whiskey. Nice.
I don't know what it was.

Speaker 11 I would say the name of it if I knew what an expensive glass of whiskey was called. I don't know, McClellan's.
McClellan's 108. McMoney's.
McMoney's. Do you have any business?

Speaker 11 Yes. Okay.

Speaker 11 There was a woman in Australia, a murderina,

Speaker 11 who went on to a game show no Americans ever heard of, which makes this difficult because this doesn't stick. If somebody had texted us and said a murderino was on jeopardy,

Speaker 11 right?

Speaker 11 We'd all have shat our pants and freaked out. But everyone in Australia is like shatting their pants and freaking out.
And they're like, a murderina is on the chase. That's my accent.

Speaker 11 What's it called? The chase? The chase. Okay.

Speaker 12 It's called the chase, and I have it right here.

Speaker 11 What's her name again?

Speaker 12 Natalie Krug.

Speaker 11 Okay, this is Natalie Krug. She's a contestant on the chase.

Speaker 11 Natalie Krug, listen, murderinos, if you want to get above someone, beat this.

Speaker 11 I don't know. I'm kidding.
I don't care.

Speaker 11 Your personal motto is... Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Speaker 11 So where does the motto come from? It's from a podcast. I'm Obsessed with True Crime Podcast.

Speaker 11 This is from my favorite murder. Yeah.

Speaker 11 Murder.

Speaker 11 My favourite. It's two very funny ladies in California get together and talk about their favorite murder.
Really? They actually discovered they were true crime nuts.

Speaker 11 And now they just chat about it. And they do their research.
It's very.

Speaker 11 What? No, we don't. Oh, it was from a different show.

Speaker 11 Funny, slightly macabre.

Speaker 11 Yay!

Speaker 11 Stephanie. I mean, that is so fucking surreal.

Speaker 11 I can't believe it.

Speaker 11 Don't get mitted. Mitted? How'd she say it? Don't get matted.

Speaker 11 No. Matted? No.

Speaker 11 And then everyone else. Stay sexy.
Don't get medded.

Speaker 11 So cool. That's amazing.
It's so wild.

Speaker 11 Thank you so much. Natalie?

Speaker 11 Fuck, I called her Stephanie. Did you? Yeah.
I'll edit it out. Thanks.

Speaker 11 Natalie. I'm like, it's so crazy.
We love our fans, Stephanie.

Speaker 11 Stephanie, you mean the world to me. Stephanie, no one's going to ever meet more of me.

Speaker 12 Can you give me a clean Natalie and I can just punch it in?

Speaker 11 Natalie. Natalie.

Speaker 11 Do Pee Wee Herman from

Speaker 11 aging Mr. Herman.

Speaker 11 Mr. Herman.
Oh, do the thing.

Speaker 11 Do the thing. Oh, yeah.
Whenever there's someone talks about corn, I always say,

Speaker 11 can you say maize? And then Karen fucking blows it up by saying,

Speaker 11 this is Paco and his wife, Inez. That one? Yeah.

Speaker 11 Peewee's Big Adventure. There's no basement in the Alamo.
Either one, but the first one is better because it's like, it's really obscure. You know what I mean?

Speaker 11 Like the first time I said it, we are, yes, we're quoting Pee Wee's Big Adventure.

Speaker 11 And the first time I did it, the delight in George's face that I also knew a line from Pee-Wee's Big Adventure to the, like, to know where it went in the scene

Speaker 11 was, you were thrilled.

Speaker 11 Like, everyone knows the line I was saying. Everyone knows a thing in the Alamo.
But then you took this obscure line and said it perfectly

Speaker 11 to something I've been saying forever, which is, can you, is it, can you say maze?

Speaker 11 And then i was just like wee

Speaker 11 like i was like i was being pushed in a like a shopping cart all of a sudden you know i'm just like this is so cool

Speaker 11 well and also uh i think i explained this to you but my friend jennifer garing and i who is my lifelong friend i haven't seen her forever because she lives in dc i'm sure she doesn't listen to this but hi jen i love you if she does but We grew up together.

Speaker 11 Our families were friends. So our parents would hang out together and like get together.
And then Jennifer and I were just the two youngest. So we would pair off and go have fun.

Speaker 11 But she's the greatest. Like, we saw uh, Raider's The Lost Ark in the theater together, like, all of my

Speaker 11 major moments of childhood I had with Jennifer Garing.

Speaker 11 And of course, we saw Pee-Wee's Big Adventure in the theater together, and so we just spoke in movie quotes constantly.

Speaker 11 So, we would just, when we were bored or there was nothing else happening, kids, this is before social media. What you did was just say movie quotes back and forth to each other like lunatics.

Speaker 11 That's how my brother and I have communicated. Like, we hated each other and then the Simpsons started happening

Speaker 11 and married with children. And then like since then he and I have never had a conversation that isn't a quote from one of those two.

Speaker 11 Like we just

Speaker 11 yeah, yeah, we just can't do that. We have like a secret handshake.
Yeah. It's that's from

Speaker 11 family therapy though, but we have this. Oh, that's real? I thought you meant the Simpsons quotes were the same.
The secret handshake is from when we had to go to family therapy. Wow.
Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 11 It actually, yeah, okay. It was good.
It was great because we made up a secret handshake and then we hated the therapist together and everything was fine. That's good.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 And then you have like comedy bonded dude. Yeah.
That's what we still do. That's so good.
Sweet. So good.
What were we talking about? We're talking about Natalie. Murder.
Medic.

Speaker 11 Medic. Medic.
Stay 60. Don't get medded.
There it is. Hey, technically, it's my birthday today.
Georgia. Did not tell Thursday.
But when people hear it,

Speaker 11 happy

Speaker 11 to

Speaker 11 you.

Speaker 11 You guys are good podcasters.

Speaker 11 Happy birthday.

Speaker 11 Thank you. Thank you.
Oh, Elvis is leaving. Elvis, what? That was my best version.
Thank you guys. So rude Elvis.
Happy birthday.

Speaker 11 What's your birthday resolution for the coming year for you? Should as you're in this new age.

Speaker 11 Live it.

Speaker 11 Love it. Yes.

Speaker 11 Learn it. Right?

Speaker 11 Learn to levitate.

Speaker 11 Fuck, you're on fire. There it is.

Speaker 11 What if they did all of those things?

Speaker 11 That would be such a waste for a podcast. It'd be like, you guys, I swear to God, she's levitating right now.
You're right. I promise.
That's all her business, right? And then some.

Speaker 11 And then some, actually.

Speaker 11 And it was none of your business. And

Speaker 11 this was the none of your business corner.

Speaker 11 So, should we talk about murder? Are there any shows we didn't watch? Oh,

Speaker 11 I'll tell you what. Tell me what.

Speaker 11 What's. I have done quite a bit of binge watching as my hair was getting greasy and I had to go to the store with my

Speaker 11 split P. Anderson's hat on.
Hell yeah, girl. Thanks.

Speaker 11 I love that little thanks.

Speaker 11 That's my little fake thanks. Don't wear pillows.
I have all of that. I have four pillows, and you have one.
Yeah, thanks. Thanks.

Speaker 11 Wait, what was I telling you? Oh, okay. So I was digging deep on Netflix because,

Speaker 11 I mean, God bless all of you for still making suggestions and tweeting suggestions at me. But there's people who are tweeting things like, have you seen Luther?

Speaker 11 Girl, the girl that tweeted at me, have you seen Luther?

Speaker 11 Girl, yes.

Speaker 11 Like, yes, I've seen fucking Luther. I haven't.
You've never seen Luther? Uh-uh. Oh, shit.
I've seen a lot of stuff. I really, do you care for Idris Elba at all? Yes, of course I care for him deeply.

Speaker 11 Okay, then you need to get into that. It's an amazing, amazing thing.
Well, so I was trying to go a little more obscure. And there is a show called Murder Book that I have.
Oh, I like that one.

Speaker 11 It's so good. Yeah, it's the one guy.

Speaker 11 Right?

Speaker 11 That's on it? Yeah, the,

Speaker 11 yeah. No, it's not.
A murder book is what they call a thing about the case. Exactly right.
Yes. So it's almost kind of a cold case thing, but they just call it something different.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 Because it ends up being about cold cases because they go back to the the murder book. I love the opening sequence of that.
Isn't it creepy? Yes. You know why I think it's creepy?

Speaker 11 Because I think it's models.

Speaker 11 It's all those files.

Speaker 11 If you're listening, please watch the show. It's very well done and it tells real good stories of true crimes, cold cases, whatever.
But it's just produced really well. It is.

Speaker 11 And they have a lot of the people who really worked the case. It reminds me of the detective one that we were talking about on Netflix.
Real detectives. Real detectives.

Speaker 11 Weren't you watching one about the occult that I tried to watch for three minutes and couldn't get into it? You know why? Okay, that's occult crimes. Yeah.
And I think it's because it's produced.

Speaker 11 I think a French company produces it because they have a lot of French talking heads that then are dubbed over.

Speaker 11 So you see their mouths moving, but then there's just a voice coming from nowhere that's talking over them. I think it's more than I think occult crimes are stupid.

Speaker 11 I really do. It's the same thing with like ghost hunters.
It's like, well,

Speaker 11 the occult isn't a thing. It's crazy people making it up.
So I don't care. Okay.
You know what I mean? Yes. Although I love the occult.
I really do. What part of it do you love? The mystery.

Speaker 11 She's the outfit. Grown-up goths, like

Speaker 11 convincing crazy people to do insane things at their bidding. What is the bad part of what you just said? It's so good.
People do it. That's the thing.
You know, I don't know. Okay.
I don't know.

Speaker 11 It's just not for you. I guess it's almost like

Speaker 11 it's the same thing too, where it's like, there's something. I really like that idea if you take the occult part out.

Speaker 11 So, like, Jonestown, I think, is cool because it's this bigger-than-life person who was able to convince all these people to do things for him or to do, you know, the same thing with Manson's interesting, too, because he was able to convince all these people to do things.

Speaker 11 And it's like,

Speaker 11 what I love is Satan, too, and Satan's real. And it's like, no, he's fucking not.
And then I get struck by a bolt of lightning. How funny would that be?

Speaker 11 Smoke just starts coming up from behind the couch. It was so weird.

Speaker 11 Georgia in her apartment just got struck by lightning. Ranting and ranting about how Satan isn't real until he was forced to show up.
Mimi got on her hind legs.

Speaker 11 Her eyes rolled back in their head and she started. She was like, I will take you to the dark place now.
Say it, Mimi. Hear me roar.
Mimi, no.

Speaker 11 You're so cute. It's so funny because you'd picture her with like a girly voice.
She actually has a very deep, satanic voice. And then Elvis is like, I fucking told you.

Speaker 11 This whole time I was trying to warn you guys that she sucked. It sounded like you wanted Elvis to have a New York accent.
Like, I fucking told you. Told you.
I fucking told you guys.

Speaker 11 This has gotten way off track. Um,

Speaker 11 skippers, come back.

Speaker 11 This was fun. No, because we were talking about a lot of people actually recommended occult crimes.
That's how I found out about it is because people were recommending.

Speaker 11 I'm sorry that I shit on the girl that recommended Luther. I adore you for tweeting at me.
I didn't mean to do that. You should have tweeted at me because I don't know it.
That's right.

Speaker 11 I just ended up putting Ikea Furniture together last night and watching Kimmy Schmidt.

Speaker 11 Which is pretty nice. So good.
I love that show. I do too.
I really love it. It's so goddamn packed full of jokes.
So good.

Speaker 11 Brilliantly written. And also, it's akin to Bob's Burgers in that when you watch it,

Speaker 11 if you are in a bad, low place, it's up, up, up. It makes you feel happy.

Speaker 11 So hilarious. Titus Andronicus should be the president of the United States of America.
I would be so happy. It would be so much better.

Speaker 11 Okay.

Speaker 11 So,

Speaker 11 all right. Girlfriends who are playing this podcast for their boyfriends on a road trip and who are like, no, you're going to love this podcast.
Come back to us.

Speaker 11 That was good. I agree.

Speaker 11 Okay, boyfriends who are like to their girlfriends. I was also sexist, what I just said.

Speaker 11 This is the best part. Get ready for the boring part.
Yeah, here comes the boring part. The point

Speaker 11 of all of it. Who's going first today? It's you, I think.
Is it me? Yeah. Karen's right.

Speaker 11 I was right about number 72. I am fucking on this shit.
Well, the problem is Mimi's entire body weight is on my story. Okay.
Sorry, go ahead. She looks so shocked.

Speaker 11 She's like, how dare you pull your story out from under my body?

Speaker 1 And we're back. Did your mom like that Psychology Today subscription? Did she use it?

Speaker 2 My passive aggressive Psychology Today subscription.

Speaker 3 Just a little hit. I think that's a little hint.

Speaker 2 Yeah, without understanding it.

Speaker 4 Have you seen that meme?

Speaker 2 That's like they show this video of you being this beautiful girl. And it's like, you're the kind of girl they write books about.
And then it flashes to the DSM.

Speaker 1 There's a bunch of those on TikTok that are like, I'm so excited for my sister today. And then it's like some horrible thing.
It's like, it's like slut celebration or whatever it is.

Speaker 3 Yeah, some troll day.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Troll garbage rat day.

Speaker 2 I highly recommend Psychology Today still, though. It's like such, it was such a good magazine to like crack the surface of those little things that you want to understand about yourself.

Speaker 3 Yeah. It's really great for that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 If you're too scared to go to therapy, that's also pick up one of those

Speaker 1 magazines. Wait, do you remember your birthday from 2017 when you turned 37?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm not specifically, but I'm guessing because we had just moved into the pod loft and I'm the kind of person who takes advantage of amenities that it was in the pool.

Speaker 3 Like I had a pool party.

Speaker 4 Remember?

Speaker 10 You did. I was there.

Speaker 3 Yeah, there was a lot of people.

Speaker 1 You had a cake with your picture on it. That's right.

Speaker 3 I have photos.

Speaker 1 There was hot dogs. It was boiling fucking hot.
We were in that side air-conditioned room.

Speaker 1 I got to hang out with your sister a little bit. That's the first time I ever met her.

Speaker 2 That's right. And my nephew was just like a baby.

Speaker 1 He was a baby on her hip.

Speaker 3 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 It was a fun party. It was really good.
That apartment pool was literally jam-packed with people. Yes.

Speaker 3 Like, every busy.

Speaker 1 It was hilarious how many people were in that pool. Yeah.
But it was very fun. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I had a lot of good birthdays there. And it was fun.
Like, yeah, going to a public pool is always fun, people watching.

Speaker 2 And the apartment, I mean, I still have a key to that apartment building if we need to go to the pool.

Speaker 1 We go in there and go through someone's mail, pick up their.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't remember the girl on the Australian game show, The Chase.

Speaker 3 I totally remember her. You do?

Speaker 2 Yeah. It was like a Jeopardy type situation.
Oh, okay. Like, that's what it looked like.
I totally remember that. And it was like, yeah, like.
presented as like Jeopardy would be. And she said that.

Speaker 1 We're just so lucky. Our Australian listeners are the best.
Yeah. And we're so lucky to have such a strong contingent down there and

Speaker 1 strong and mighty and vocal, and the kind of people who would do that.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's so funny.

Speaker 2 Like, Australia has always been very supportive. What?

Speaker 3 Okay. Yes.
Yes. Great.

Speaker 4 I love it.

Speaker 4 We got to go back. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. All right.
Let's get into George's story about the interstate killer.

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Speaker 11 This is the highway killer or the interstate killer. Now, this is a serial killer that I had never heard of.
I've seen this photo before, but I've never heard of him.

Speaker 11 And I found the like pretty straightforward story of like, he killed this person, then he killed this person, then he killed this person. You know, like the story.

Speaker 11 And it was so devoid of any details that when I started looking into it, and suddenly it's like, no, this was way fucking bigger than you thought it was.

Speaker 11 So we're kind of learning this together. Can I guess which state it took place in? Yes.
Texas? You were wrong. Fuck.
Because it took place in a lot of states. Oh.

Speaker 11 Yes. I see.
You tell me. All right.
I will. You don't want to make it.
I'm not going to guess the whole story. I thought I should, but now I don't want to.
Just guess. Guess it.
Guess it, guess it.

Speaker 11 Okay. From 1982 until 1984, a serial killer

Speaker 11 was killing young men. He was dubbed the interstate killer because his victims were mostly random hitchhikers.
20 to 23 were dead before he was caught.

Speaker 11 The victims were stabbed, and bodies were found in parts of Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, and Wisconsin. What? Yeah.

Speaker 11 So the first victim. I really thought I knew this, and I do not know it at all.
You know his face. Okay.
This is crazy. Okay.
So Jay Reynolds was the first victim. He was found on March 22nd, 1982.

Speaker 11 He was found stabbed to death on the outskirts of Lexington, Kentucky. And all of these,

Speaker 11 okay. Nine months later, on October 3rd, 14-year-old Del Void Baker was strangled.
His body was dumped on the roadside of North, roadside north of Indianapolis. Then Stephen Crockett, who was 19,

Speaker 11 on October 23rd, was stabbed 32 times. Four of those wounds were to the head, discarded outside Lowell, Indiana.

Speaker 11 So then the killer goes to Illinois, and on November 6th, he leaves the body of Robert Foley in a field northwest of Joliet. Joliet?

Speaker 11 Law enforcement is like, oh, there's a pattern, right?

Speaker 11 Assaults on young men, which back then we know wasn't something that was looked very deep. Like if you look at any of these interstate killings of young men, not looked into very deeply.

Speaker 11 So stabbing and strangulation are present in every case. So then on Christmas of 1982, 25-year-old John Johnson's body is found dumped in a field outside Belshaw, Indiana.

Speaker 11 Three days later, 21-year-old John Roach is discovered near Belleville, and then the bound body of 23-year-old Car Wash employee from Terre Haute,

Speaker 11 his name is Stephen

Speaker 11 Again, A-G-A-N, Agan, Stephen Agen.

Speaker 11 He'd been stabbed to death and discarded north of Newport, Indiana. So then on June 6, 1983, an anonymous caller tells cops that he knows who the interstate killer is.

Speaker 11 He says that someone he knew had been picked up and attacked by the killer and had played dead after being assaulted.

Speaker 11 And so he knows who the person was. The man's name was

Speaker 11 Larry Eller. I'm sorry, Larry Eller, and he's arrested.

Speaker 11 Can I say his name correctly?

Speaker 11 Steven that out. His name is.

Speaker 11 Can you Steven that out? That's a new thing.

Speaker 11 So leave that all in just for that. So actually, leave that in.
Holy shit. Steven that out.
Steven that out, please.

Speaker 11 I just ruined this. The man's name is Larry Eller, and he is arrested.
Okay, let's talk about Larry Eller.

Speaker 11 He's born in Crawfordsville, Indiana on December 21st, 1952. By the time he was 18, his mother had married and divorced four times.
Oh, that's too many. That's too many.

Speaker 11 He, I mean, that's fine for like what? So like every three years. Yeah.
I was trying to do the math. Yes.

Speaker 11 He attends Catholic schools, has some difficulty. At 10 years old, he's sent to the Riley Child Guidance Clinic in

Speaker 11 Indiana, where psychologists, for psychological tests, reveal normal intelligence, but extreme insecurity and great fear of separation and abandonment.

Speaker 11 The staff of the clinic said that his home environment was unstable and chaotic and recommend that he be sent to live elsewhere. So at the age of 12, he went to live in a Catholic boy's home.
Oh, no.

Speaker 11 I know, where he stayed for five months.

Speaker 11 Little did they know. Little or did they know? It was later said by a forensic psychiatrist that his history was one of the worst cases of child abuse he had seen in 20 years in the field.
Oh no.

Speaker 11 Yeah. So there's not a lot of details about it, but they like hint at things, but they don't go too deep into it.

Speaker 11 Like you can't find details except for one thing about one of his stepdads would pour hot water on his head when he was like mad at him.

Speaker 11 It's just like that's, you know, and that's horrible, but there wasn't a lot of other information about it. So he dropped out of high school in his senior year, worked odd jobs for a couple years.

Speaker 11 And not long after leaving high school, he joined the monastery.

Speaker 11 And then he quit the monastery. So Larry Eller is struggling all his life to cope with what turns out to be his homosexuality.
Oh.

Speaker 11 So he was simultaneously fascinated and repelled by it. He hated himself for it, but he couldn't help himself.

Speaker 11 I bet the Catholic boys' home did a lot of good for that issue. I bet you're right.
That was all sarcasm. That was total sarcasm.
So he killed his first victim at around 30 years old.

Speaker 11 Larry was arrested for the assault

Speaker 11 that the anonymous caller had called in, but the case was dropped when

Speaker 11 Eiler gave the victim money and the victim was like, fine, I'm out of here, which is totally understandable. You don't want to relieve this whole trauma for no reason.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 The bodies of young men then continued to be found throughout the spring of 1993, with most of the action shifting to Illinois. By July 2nd, the body count stood at 12.

Speaker 11 Some of the victims had been mutilated after death, and a few had been disemboweled. Whoa.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 The 13th victim was Ralph Khaleesi, and he was found on August 31st, dumped in a field near Lake Forest, Illinois. He had been dead less than 12 hours when he disappeared and was discovered.

Speaker 11 He was bound with clothesline and a surgical tape, stabbed 17 times, and his pants were pulled down around his ankles.

Speaker 11 Then on October 30th, 1983, in Indiana, a highway patrolman spotted a pickup truck parked along the Interstate 65. Two men were walking towards a bunch of trees.
He stops them. One was bound.

Speaker 11 And when the officer went to investigate, he identifies Larry Eiler as the owner of the truck.

Speaker 11 So the cop catches him as he's about to lead someone into the forest

Speaker 11 already done. Yeah.
And the guy says,

Speaker 11 he told me he'd give me money, you know, for

Speaker 11 sex. He asked if he could tie me up, and we were walking out towards the field.

Speaker 11 So the guy at that point was actually, it's voluntary because he thinks, oh, I'm just going to get paid. Yeah.
And I'm fine to do this. Yes.

Speaker 11 So then when the officer searches the truck, he finds surgical tape, clothesline, and a hunting knife that's stained with blood.

Speaker 11 So Eiler is taken in for questioning. And when the forensic experts check the blood, they match it with that of Khaleesi, who had been found previously.

Speaker 11 They were also able to match the tire tracks left at the Khaleesi site with that of Eiler's truck.

Speaker 11 And police were like, this is is enough to put him behind bars.

Speaker 11 But

Speaker 11 they let him go while they continued the investigation.

Speaker 11 Yeah, they can't just hold him. No.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 So while the investigation continued in the Khaleesi murder, Eiler is set free. Then on October 4th, 1983, 14-year-old Derek Hansen is found dismembered near Kenahosha, Wisconsin.
Kenahosha?

Speaker 11 Thank you. Sorry, 14.

Speaker 11 A lot of young kids.

Speaker 11 11 days later, a young John Doe is discovered near

Speaker 11 Renelsier Indiana that one I don't know I only know Kenosha because my friend grew up right near it okay that was a good one so I've heard him say it Rensselaer Rensselaer spell it r-e-n-s-s-e-l-a-e-r

Speaker 11 I got lost at the two s's

Speaker 11 renseler

Speaker 11 renseler is it bear

Speaker 11 oh i got that one wrong that was not my what was it baxer i think It looks like it's spelled with an X in the middle, and everyone's like, it's pronounced Bear.

Speaker 11 Well, you're just changing the rules of reading. Yeah.
Then you're actually, you're wrong. It's not last week.

Speaker 11 Why don't you call the mayor and tell them that he's wrong? Well, guess what? I am the mayor. What? I just made myself the mayor.
She just took off a mask and revealed that she is, in fact, the mayor.

Speaker 11 That's true.

Speaker 11 Okay. Okay.
Almost two weeks later,

Speaker 11 another John Doe is found near Effingham, Illinois, and two other victims, Richard Wayne and another unidentified male, were found dead outside of Indianapolis.

Speaker 11 Then, October 18th, 1983, a couple is hunting for mushrooms at an abandoned Indiana farm, hanging out. They're like, We found mushrooms here before, let's get some more, right?

Speaker 11 Yeah, for either for a salad or to trip out all day long. Yeah, whatever this couple is into is their business.
It's their business. They've been there before.

Speaker 11 They're not there to hurt anyone, but they are there to find two skulls lying near a dilapidated barn. No.

Speaker 11 So we can at least assume that they were stoned on pot. Yeah.
If they're out looking for mushrooms. And they're freaking out, man.
And then they stumble upon like remains. That's awful.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 Those poor hippies. I know.
Then it actually turns out that they're also businessmen. Well, it turns out they're the murderers.
No. No, no, I get it.
There's so many twists.

Speaker 11 They're also businessmen murderers. Oh my God.
Finally.

Speaker 11 That's the area

Speaker 11 I want to go into. It's all of it.
I want the murders that happen inside of the Enron building.

Speaker 11 They think I mean it. I mean, they could have.
There has to be at least one.

Speaker 11 There were so many people in that building. Yeah.
Everyone was like, on a lot of pressure. Yeah.
Okay. They had to either sell or buy.
Or depending on their business. That's

Speaker 11 sell by or kill on lifetime.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 11 Oh, write it down.

Speaker 11 What about a grocery one called Sell Buy Dead?

Speaker 11 No.

Speaker 11 Like a Sell By Kill. Sell by Date.
And then it's like

Speaker 11 sell by colon, dead. Dead.

Speaker 11 I love it. I love this.
Okay. We can keep working on that one, but the other one about Enron is perfect.
Sold it. They sold it already.
Great.

Speaker 11 Okay. There's an abandoned Indiana farm.
They find two skulls lying together north of the barn off U.S. Highway 41, just across the Illinois state line in Newton County.
Way to go, Newton County.

Speaker 11 Yeah, how simple you are to pronounce and read. Thank you.
I'm only doing murders from places that are just one syllable. Well, it's two syllables.
Just town. Yeah.
Something town. No X's.
Nothing.

Speaker 11 No double S's.

Speaker 11 When police get to the scene, they then find two other bodies. Whoa.
Near that barn?

Speaker 11 One of the victims had been decapitated and all had their pants pulled down and they had been stabbed to death. Two of the victims were identified.

Speaker 11 Michael Bower, which is my friend's ex-boyfriend's name, he was a 23-year-old pizza deliverer, last seen taking out the trash at his parents' Portage Park home, which what a fucking bummer. Yes.

Speaker 11 And John Bartlett,

Speaker 11 who's 19, who was staying with his sister in Chicago after being discharged from the army.

Speaker 11 By this time, police were like, this is clearly Larry Eiler. They fucking knew it was him.
Another victim who had survived his attack identified photographs of Eiler.

Speaker 11 And another survivor came in and was like, yep, happened to me too. But the investigators wanted him for homicide.
So

Speaker 11 their circumstantial evidence was still incomplete, so they wouldn't arrest him. Yep.

Speaker 11 So Larry Eiler at this point is under constant surveillance in Chicago.

Speaker 11 And because of this, he files a suit against the Lake County Sheriff's Office, accusing them of mounting a, quote, psychological welfare, nope, psychological warfare, not welfare, that'd be a good thing.

Speaker 11 Campaign to unhinge his mind. Right.
Yes. That's what they do.

Speaker 11 That's what all the police are trying to to do to this one guy. Yeah, who happens to also be a child molesting murderer.
Yes.

Speaker 11 His claim for half a million dollars is denied. What? Yep.
He's not the victim in this scenario. No, turns out.

Speaker 11 And as he's leaving the courtroom, Eiler is arrested for Ralph Khalesi's murder. Wow.
That's sweet ass timing on those police

Speaker 11 people's part. They were just like, oh, yeah, you want to go in and try to, you want to try to sue the city? Okay, go ahead.
Yeah. We'll meet you out here.
Don't get too stoked yet though, Karen.

Speaker 11 Yeah. He's held in lieu of a million dollars in bond, but in the pretrial hearing, February 5th, 1984,

Speaker 11 all the evidence recovered from Eiler's truck the night they found him with the guy who was bound gets excluded. Why?

Speaker 11 Because the night that they found him in the truck, they held him without arrest in

Speaker 11 the jail for over 12 hours. Oh.
Which you're not allowed to do. You have to have a reason to hold him there.
That's right. Like arresting him.
So he's released on bail.

Speaker 11 I know.

Speaker 11 It's a real bummer, man. It's crazy.
It's crazy when it happens when it's a serial killer. It's not, this isn't a shoplifter.
Yeah. It's not like someone's rights were slightly stepped on who was,

Speaker 11 you know, like a slum lord or something. Yeah.

Speaker 11 Bad, very bad. But this is a person who is out, a predator that's intentionally killing innocent people.
Okay. Here's what gets even worse: because now he goes on to kill a bunch of people

Speaker 11 after this. Right.
Because

Speaker 11 they couldn't hold him. Right.

Speaker 11 So on May 7th, 1984, 22-year-old David Block was found murdered near Zion, Illinois. His wounds also were the pattern of everyone else who had been killed already.

Speaker 11 Okay, so then

Speaker 11 August 24th, 1st, 1984, a janitor of an apartment house in Chicago goes to take out the garbage

Speaker 11 and empty the garbage can, and they're overflowing with gray bags, like nice gray trash bags. And this guy,

Speaker 11 his last name is Bala.

Speaker 11 He's like, those trash bags aren't what my tenants use. My tenants use cheaper bags.
He knew they weren't his tenants because they were nice trash bags. And he's like, my tenants are pieces of shit.

Speaker 11 They don't buy this stuff. They don't buy hefty.
They buy fucking 99 cent store shit. So it made him suspicious.
And he says, quote, I was very pissed off a little bit.

Speaker 11 So I opened one up, ripped it open. I was very curious.
What the hell am I throwing out? He says, can you imagine what his accent sounded like? This is Chicago, right? This is a Chicago

Speaker 11 janitor. Yeah.
Yeah. And the building manager guy.
Yeah. Who gets pissed about garbage.
Yeah. What am I throwing out? I just want to know.
I just want to know. You putting your garbage in here?

Speaker 11 I want to know the accent. No, I can't.
Steven wants the accent for Chicago. Do Chicago.

Speaker 12 Hey, I'm throwing at the garbage here.

Speaker 11 Well done.

Speaker 11 Get angry, though.

Speaker 11 I'm throwing at the fucking garbage here.

Speaker 11 I don't know.

Speaker 11 Steven that out. That turned over into triple Chicago.
Yeah, that was amazing. Wow, it's just like harder accent is angrier.
Yep.

Speaker 11 So, of course, he's opening the bags, and guess what? A leg slips out. No! Falls to the ground.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 11 So

Speaker 11 within eight bags

Speaker 11 are the remains of 15 or 16 i can't tell you old um

Speaker 11 hustler danny bridges he's like 15 or 16 he's a

Speaker 11 child sex worker hustler you know the streets of chicago back then can you imagine seeing a 15 year old like work him the streets and stuff in the 80s yeah probably the 90s too let's be honest like i can't remember right up till today.

Speaker 11 Well,

Speaker 11 so Danny Bridges is a known sex worker by Chicago Police Special

Speaker 11 Investigations Unit. They

Speaker 11 had been established to combat child pornography and the sex abuse of children, and they actually had worked with Danny to get his story to people who were advocating for teen sex workers.

Speaker 11 So there's a couple channels doing news stories. I guess there's video of him talking to them, like doing news news stories.
I can't find them, and I would fucking love to see them.

Speaker 11 This kid looks so like

Speaker 11 he just looks like he knows too much about life. So 15 years old.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 He's a freshman in high school. Well, he had really, I don't think he goes to school at this point.
Yeah, but I mean, just the equation of like, if he had rich parents, if he grew up in Evanston

Speaker 11 and was, you know, had a little Izog sweater on and was listening to fucking the specials. There we go.

Speaker 11 Topsiders.

Speaker 11 Maybe be quiet.

Speaker 11 So he was warned by the Chicago Special Police to stay away

Speaker 11 from

Speaker 11 this guy, from Eller.

Speaker 11 Everyone is like, stay the fuck away from this guy. We're trying to get him.
He's a murderer. Yeah.
People you know, stay away from him.

Speaker 11 Okay, but later, one member of the special investigations unit acknowledged in the book, What Cops Know by Connie Fletcher that the unit encouraged child prostitutes to have sex with adults in order to make arrest.

Speaker 11 As in, they would set them up like a sting operation,

Speaker 11 which I know is super inflammatory, but it's in this book. I didn't say it.
The quote is. Well, that was basically the practice was they're using these children as bait so they can get these bad guys.

Speaker 11 That's the only way they can actually lure them out. Right.

Speaker 11 They can't use legal people to do it, even though it was completely but ethically, they should be using evidence that's not putting a child at risk exactly i mean that's the like a yeah i guess even if it was like a someone who was of age and they were working with the police for some reason but this is just like so dark and deep well these days they would just use people who are right looking it would be a 21 jump street yeah sex worker

Speaker 11 edition yes and so he said the the quote from the siu investigator says our opinion opinion is that you should go out and find the crime what better way to prove

Speaker 11 and have him,

Speaker 11 what better way to prove the crime than to get it in progress or to follow someone home and have him go to bed with a kid is what this guy said in this book. Yeah.
82, 84? 80.

Speaker 11 This book was written in 91. Oh, no.
I know.

Speaker 11 So

Speaker 11 it seems that they acknowledged that the unit encouraged child sex workers to have sex with adults in order to make arrests. Right.

Speaker 11 So, and it also, Danny Burgess was needed to testify in pending child pornography trials. So, this kid was like deep in it, and he gets killed.
So,

Speaker 11 in one of the NBC videos, a reporter asks in 1984, asks Danny Bridges about Eiler, and he says, Yeah, I knew him. He was a real freak.
He used to come around uptown and hang around.

Speaker 11 So, this kid, Danny Bridges, knows about Eiler. And the question then is, why would he go home with him if he already knew he was a creep?

Speaker 11 So, Danny Bridges is going to get into a car with a guy that he knows is a creep? No, unless maybe he was doing it for the police. Oh, is kind of the question.
Right. Which is one of the.

Speaker 11 Yeah, it's like literally live bait. Like worst case scenario.
And it was never, I mean, this is just like something I found in a bunch of little articles, which I'll name at the end of this.

Speaker 11 So, so perhaps the whole thing was a sting that went wrong because Danny did get killed. Yeah.

Speaker 11 How the fuck does that happen? Like, you, that's so, that's the craziest version of that story where it's just like

Speaker 11 if the cops were using him as bait, then what excuse in the world could they have to then somehow lose track of him? You know what I mean?

Speaker 11 Like that would be the only if you're letting a child get into the car with a known serial killer,

Speaker 11 you can't like, oh, whoops, they took a wrong turn. I mean, like, that's insanity.

Speaker 11 Well, here's the other part of this that gets in here somewhere is that they think that Larry Eiler might have had an accomplice.

Speaker 11 Oh, because Danny's fingerprints were never found on Larry Eiler's car, so maybe someone else picked him up, brought him back there. Wow, I know

Speaker 11 it's really complicated. Okay, but also, usually,

Speaker 11 isn't that rare that serial killers would have, like, have an accomplice or work with someone else? I would think so, but who knows? I mean, I'll ask. Would you ask? I'll ask my friend.

Speaker 11 I'll ask my friend at the FBI. Would you ask your accomplice, your serial killer accomplice? I'll ask my boss.
Ask the guy you're working with to kill people.

Speaker 11 Okay, so witnesses,

Speaker 11 you know, after they find the body parts in the garbage bags, witnesses say they saw a man who lived next door, put the bags in the trash, and he is Eiler, who's 31 years old at this time.

Speaker 11 So he just took the garbage to the place next door

Speaker 11 during the day.

Speaker 11 He wanted to get caught. Or he was just really stupid.
So Larry Eiler is convicted of murder

Speaker 11 and he of Danny Bridges. And

Speaker 11 my lord, she's being real. She's all over the map.
Okay.

Speaker 11 He's convicted of murder and aggravated kidnapping of Danny Bridges. And on October 3rd, 1986, he's sentenced to die.
Then in November of 1990, he's bargaining to save himself from execution.

Speaker 11 He agrees to help Indiana authorities solve a number of his crimes if they would get him off death row.

Speaker 11 So he confesses to the killing of the Aegin torture slang and surprised investigators by naming an alleged accomplice. Accomplice? I keep saying words wrong today.

Speaker 11 I don't know what's going on with me today. Oh, I'm having a stroke.
It's all right.

Speaker 11 Accomplice. So, 53-year-old Robert David Little, he's the chairman of the Department of Library Science at Indiana State University.

Speaker 11 And this murder of

Speaker 11 Aegin happens when he's staying with

Speaker 11 Larry as a guest. And according to Eiler, Little took the photos and masturbated while Larry disemboweled the victim.
Oh, man. So he's like, let's pick up boys.
You do this, I'll do that.

Speaker 11 So he's like, part of it. And it's kind of his like, this guy, Dr.
Little, is like his sugar daddy. He's like paying for his places to live.
He used to be a student of Dr.

Speaker 11 Little, and they're like working together. What the fuck? Yeah, it's some real twisted shit that they better fucking make a movie out of.
Also, because

Speaker 11 he's a professor of library science, so there's like a real that you could make that a super creepy in the stacks style murder

Speaker 11 story. Who would play him? I'm already wondering.

Speaker 11 I mean, are you watching Fargo and how amazing? What's his name is Ewan McGregor? Oh my God. But the woman,

Speaker 11 I don't know her name offhand. She's also in the leftovers.
Yes. She's amazing.
She's so good. She has two characters are so different.
I am loving. Mary Stewart something or other, not Masterson.

Speaker 11 Mary Stewart Little? No.

Speaker 11 Mary Beth.

Speaker 11 Mary Beth. Mary Macbeth.
It's Mary Macbeth from the play. I am loving the young hot girl, though.
Are you caught up? Yes. You mean the one she's playing? Who's also playing the sheriff?

Speaker 11 That's not her.

Speaker 11 Or the police chief, I mean? The girl with the short black hair? Yeah, that's the Ewan McGregor's, the dumpy brother's girlfriend, is the same as the chief. Hold the fuck up.
Yes. No, no, no.

Speaker 11 Wait, I'm the one that gets to tell you this. I told this to Vince, and he's like, no.
Well, to Vince is straight up wrong. No.
Yes.

Speaker 11 I mean, I almost yelled at Steven. Vince, Vince, we're getting a divorce.
Steven, is this true?

Speaker 12 Mary Elizabeth Winstead. Is that what you're thinking of?

Speaker 11 Yes. She's playing both characters.

Speaker 12 It doesn't say on the main Wikipedia page, but if we go deeper.

Speaker 12 We go deeper. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

Speaker 11 Who's the? It's her.

Speaker 11 She plays. I'm telling you, Eyeliner.

Speaker 12 Yeah. Nikki.
Nikki Swongo.

Speaker 11 Nikki Swango's the girlfriend that's rock and roll. Yeah.
And she plays her. She's the chief.

Speaker 11 She's the chief.

Speaker 12 Wikipedia is failing me right now.

Speaker 11 I'm looking at MTV. I am so mad at you.
Steven, you're going to get Steven out of here. Everything you have to say from now on is in a Chicago accent.

Speaker 11 Oh, no. IMTV, Fargo.

Speaker 11 Season three. I'm going to have to put this on pause.

Speaker 11 Season three. If If I get this before you, Stephen, you're fucking fired.
Steve. Well, he's trying to hold a microphone and then do it with one finger.
Well, that's his problem. Okay.
All right. Okay.

Speaker 11 Here we go. No, I think you're wrong.
No way. Carrie Kuhn is the chief.
What? Yep. It's two different actresses.
Mary Elizabeth something.

Speaker 11 God, I thought. I thought she thought so.

Speaker 12 Mary Elizabeth Winstead.

Speaker 11 Mary Elizabeth Winstead's only the girlfriend?

Speaker 11 I've had so many conversations

Speaker 11 about how amazing. Including with me because I was like, uh-huh, I agreed with you a couple weeks ago.
They look so much alike. I asked Vince who was the same person too.
Because I agree.

Speaker 11 We always have to believe Vince now. Why? Yes.
That's

Speaker 11 never wrong. He's never wrong.
Never. He also doesn't say shit like I do where I'm like, no, I'm positive.
And I'm like, oh, you're right. I'm wrong.
I do that shit all the time.

Speaker 11 I also, I, listen, look. Look and listen.

Speaker 11 You said that she plays two characters and I didn't want to be like, I think you're wrong. So So I was like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 11 Oh, you always got to say if you think I'm wrong. It happens a lot.
Have you tried telling yourself, telling you that you think you're wrong?

Speaker 11 If you're confused, I don't like arguing. No, no, no.
I just think I don't like, I would rather assume that I'm wrong because I usually am. Okay.
What was that thing I said the other day?

Speaker 11 The cockles of your heart? Hackles. I said cockles.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 No, you said something about going. Oh, it raises your.
I don't want to get my. You said something about the.

Speaker 11 I said, I don't want. my.
You said something about the cockles up. You don't want to get your cockles up.
Right. And, but it was hackles.
This is why I don't argue when people tell me a thing.

Speaker 11 I know, but I feel like,

Speaker 11 okay, well, I would also, when I'm positive about something, it almost changes the fact. I get so positive.
I believe you. We're exactly the same way.
I believe that way. You do the same thing.

Speaker 11 It's like, oh, no, no, no, no, look it up. Yeah.
Like, let's wait until you see this that I'm right. I don't understand.
But here's the thing. This happens all the time in casting.

Speaker 11 Why are you casting two two women who look ex all? I thought was that

Speaker 11 the

Speaker 11 police chief woman just had less eyeliner and a different haircut. And I'm like, this is brilliant, that they're making her look a little bit older simply by not.

Speaker 11 Because the brothers are the same person. So why couldn't this be that too? I thought it was.

Speaker 11 I thought it was like a theme. I did too.

Speaker 11 I did too. I think I stopped thinking that when Vince said no.

Speaker 11 I would have doubled down.

Speaker 11 And I think she is killing it. So who do you think is killing it then? The chief.
I love the chief. I think now the girlfriend, Mary Elizabeth, is fucking, it's suddenly about her.
Yes.

Speaker 11 And I fucking am like, at first I was like, who, like, what's this peripheral character? And now it's about her. And I fucking love her.
Yeah, she's, I think, I like them both a lot, but I did too.

Speaker 11 But I wasn't, I knew that the other Carrie was good in the leftovers, so I wasn't worried about that. But this chick is awesome.
I imagine

Speaker 11 I just think she's now, I think she's bad. No, I'm just kidding.
I just thought that it was this amazing job of

Speaker 11 when you are the kind of girl that dresses rock and roll like the one, like the hot girlfriend, you have a kind of aura about you that looks like that.

Speaker 11 And when you are a woman that is just trying to fucking get some shit done and have people listen to you, you look like Carrie Kuhn, which is kind of an all-business haircut and not a lot of makeup and not a lot of that and a lot of just like, I'm not trying to do anything.

Speaker 11 And it seemed like this perfect presentation of like

Speaker 11 when what you do with your womanly attractiveness based on the job you have or based on what you're trying to get done with your job. And it's this thing too of like

Speaker 11 you can either use the fact that you're hot or pretty or you cannot, but the one way isn't better than the other. Exactly right.

Speaker 11 They're both, it's up to you in both ways, and they're both very effective. I just loved that presentation.
I'm like, I was giving it so much fucking credit.

Speaker 11 Do you need a call a couple people you were at parties with?

Speaker 11 I'm so mad right now of like me holding forth on what it means, you know, philosophically and representationally of the woman's role or whatever. I wonder how many people

Speaker 11 have argued your point once they believed you at parties or whatever. Let's not act like I go to a bunch of parties.
I haven't talked to anybody but the two of you

Speaker 11 in like a month. Those Hollywood parties and our therapist.

Speaker 11 Oh, that's right. I just tried to tell our therapist.

Speaker 11 She has been in. Oh, she was in Scott Pilgrim.
Okay.

Speaker 11 She's cute. Okay.
Oh, Rock and Roll Girl was the girlfriend in Scott Pilgrim. Yeah.
Yes, she's great. And she was in 10 Cloverfield Lane.
She's great. Swiss Army man.
Okay.

Speaker 11 She's been in some cool shit. What about Carrie Koon? She's been.
She's from the Leftovers. She's from the leftovers.
Isn't that enough for you? It is. That's funny.

Speaker 11 Let's see here. She is.

Speaker 11 Should we be doing more Wikipedia or should you finish your story? Oh, I'm not done?

Speaker 11 I thought I was done.

Speaker 11 Fuck. God damn it.
I don't want to keep going. Listen, he's a fucking asshole.
He died of AIDS.

Speaker 11 Oh, God. No, really, he dies of AIDS.

Speaker 11 Sorry, that was the end of the fucking story. Okay, look, I'm almost done.

Speaker 11 He has a guy who who does it with him. That's the darkest.
I feel like that's the darkest. That's probably why we just took a serious left turn.

Speaker 11 We just touched into the darkest area possible, which is serial, a team of serial killer situations. Yeah.
Fuck that. Also against children.
Totally. Yeah.
Totally.

Speaker 11 So based on his confession, Larry Eiler receives a 60 years prison sentence on top of what he's been going on through. In return, he agrees to testify against Dr.

Speaker 11 Little, who's arrested on the murder charges.

Speaker 11 And in the absence of physical evidence to support Eiler's statement, Little is acquitted of all charges in 1991.

Speaker 11 So,

Speaker 11 okay, later, Larry Eiler's attorney finds out that Dr. Little

Speaker 11 had been paying for Larry Eiler's defense.

Speaker 11 So, Larry's testifying against Dr. Little for the prosecution, but has a financial relationship with the prosecution's lead witness and a legal duty to his client, and it's all crazy fucked up.

Speaker 11 So that shouldn't have happened. However, okay, back in Illinois.
But it happened anyway, basically. It did.
But they didn't figure that out until a long time later. Back in Illinois,

Speaker 11 Larry offers to clear 20 murders in exchange for a commutation of his sentence to life imprisonment. The state authorities say no, and then I wrote Dix because

Speaker 11 there were more murders going on after Larry Eilers was put into prison that were very similar to what was going on when he was killing people. Was it Dr.
Library Little?

Speaker 11 It was someone else who worked in a similar manner. And Larry Eilers is like, yo, I'll tell you everything and I'll put all of this to bed if you just don't kill me.
And this guy who was like,

Speaker 11 this was the new

Speaker 11 something.

Speaker 11 District Attorney? Thank you. And he was like, no, we put him.
Jack O'Malley, he was the Cook County state attorney.

Speaker 11 He could keep him, keep Eiler in jail for the rest of his life, solve more than 20 old murders, help bring to justice a killer or killer still in in the loose, and save

Speaker 11 taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars in appeal costs. But good old Jack O'Malley said, a bird in the hand is better than 20 in the bush.
Literally said that. So he said no.

Speaker 11 So he was basically saying killing this one guy is worth it.

Speaker 11 Okay. All right.

Speaker 11 Okay. So Larry Eiler dies of AIDS on March 6th, 1994, at 41 years old.
Kathleen Zellner handles Eiler's appeals. She describes the killings.

Speaker 11 He tells her about all the killings over the last three years before he dies, and she convinces him,

Speaker 11 she convinces him to let her release his confession after his death. So she released a list of 21 killings to which she said Eiler confessed, and that he said he had an accomplice for

Speaker 11 four of the killings. He took a polygraph

Speaker 11 text that supported all of these things. So it's all true, maybe.
Probably. Pretty much.
So I don't know if you recognize the name Kathleen Zellner.

Speaker 11 Is it the it makeup products that like make your... Zellner for

Speaker 11 don't get a case of the Mondays

Speaker 11 will

Speaker 11 exonerate your pores. I don't know.
Is that what you mean?

Speaker 11 Trying to think of stuff.

Speaker 11 You were going on my riff. I thought you were giving me clues who she really could be.
No, no, no. Oh my God, I was just like, what? Oh, how should I know that? Puzzles? Oh, no, no.

Speaker 11 I was going off your riff badly. You couldn't tell because they were very bad.

Speaker 11 Will exhaust your pores. I disagree.
I think you did great. Thank you so much.
I'm honored. You're saying that because it's my birthday.
No, I'm not. No, I never do that.
Okay.

Speaker 11 One, Miss Kathleen Zellner, who, by the way, if this had been turned into a movie like it was supposed to called Privileged Information, would have been played by Jessica Beale, is also now Steve Avery's new appellate attorney.

Speaker 11 From Wisconsin, Making a Murderer?

Speaker 11 So she is a defense attorney.

Speaker 11 She's on appeals. She's the appeals attorney.
Once you get convicted, she comes in and is like, let's see if we can turn this around. So she, that's what she did for him in that she found out that

Speaker 11 his whole defense had been paid for by the person he ended up fingering. Oh, his Dr.
Little. So she was like, what the fuck?

Speaker 11 So she basically she goes through everything from the trial and is like, here's what this fucked up. Here's what that fucked up.

Speaker 11 We're going to go back and appeal all of this based on this, not based on even whether or not you did it or based based on, you know, it's purely legal. It's like the promises talked about.

Speaker 11 Turnover and this evidence they were supposed to.

Speaker 11 Did this go by the book? Right. Which might or not mean that the guy is guilty, but it doesn't matter because it's you know process.
So she's due process. Yeah, which is great.
Good for her.

Speaker 11 All right.

Speaker 11 George is like, I'm being forced to say this. Yeah.
No, I mean that, though. It's like, you know, it's the thing that fucking guy Brenham says to us, too, which is like, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 11 You have to give them a good fight. Right.
Which is like, no, put them in jail forever. All right.

Speaker 11 So a bunch of 11 bodies after his arrest, 11 bodies turn up in rural counties in Ohio and Indiana, all the same age, ligature marks, all this shit.

Speaker 11 And then,

Speaker 11 so,

Speaker 11 that's it.

Speaker 11 Where's Dr. Fucking Little? Is he the one doing it? I don't, you can't find information about this shit.
Oh, I want to give a shout out to

Speaker 11 this. The article really that sums up everything really well was called The Return of Larry Eiler from the Chicago Reader in 1992, and it's written by John Conroy.

Speaker 11 And it really is the best article you can read of it. And then there's a couple other ones here and there that give some information, but it's so hard to find anything.
Right.

Speaker 11 The Return of Larry Eiler. I want to read that.
It's.

Speaker 11 It's just such a fucked up case. I hope I told that well enough, and I know I was like, I didn't say words correctly sometimes, which is how I do things.
Hey, it's your birthday. It's my birthday.

Speaker 11 No, the mouth is dry. Amazing.
Well, now I just want to, now I'm so mad and want to know.

Speaker 11 It also, that sounds like such a dumb political stance of, yeah, we are going to kill him because we've got the chance to kill him and he deserves to be killed, so we're going to kill him.

Speaker 11 Well, this guy was also like, it was his first

Speaker 11 death penalty that he had gotten, and they were all proud of that, so he didn't want to give it up.

Speaker 11 And so, all these parents whose kids had disappeared and they didn't know where they were, and people who thought it was going to keep happening were like, Give this guy life in prison, he's not going to get out.

Speaker 11 And this shit, Kathy, or Catherine Zellner, was also like, Because the guy was like, Well, what if he then gets out in 30 years? Because we took the death penalty away.

Speaker 11 And she like proved that he wouldn't because of these, because this other, um, this other thing he got found guilty of. So, it was never going to happen, anyways.
And this guy just like wouldn't be.

Speaker 11 Yeah, he's admitting to 20 murderers and you give him a life sentence he he won't get out and 20 life sentences with no parole he wouldn't have oh that's fucking heavy yeah so it's just it's just fucking sad and crazy that we've never heard it's just another one of those like

Speaker 11 you know a disenfranchised group of people are getting killed so nobody cares and it's not a big deal to anyone right except their families so why prosecute hard or what you know it's yeah and no it's nothing against the cops and actually there's one John Doe that one of the

Speaker 11 counties had. They could never find out who it was.
So

Speaker 11 all the cops there paid for a funeral for him and like, and like went to the funeral and visit the grave and got him a headstone. And it's like, it's not, it's just,

Speaker 11 it's just shitty. It's so shitty.
Yeah. It's such hard work and that's so shitty.
Yeah. Well, and you know, this made me think of in just a pull-out bigger picture thing.

Speaker 11 Because we, even since I was in high school being in high school in the 80s the difference of the way people talk about being gay people treat gay people it is exactly the opposite of how when I was a teenager and so I think younger people don't appreciate it as much but this is such a great example of people going like uh you know men marrying men or women marrying women what's next or whatever all that kind of shit

Speaker 11 It's such a like when you look at how when you repress and and oppress people and tell them that they can't be who they are, the kind of things, the kind of psychological damage that that causes and what that can turn into in certain people, obviously not always, because, but the idea of that, that people back then, not that long ago, were absolutely forced to not only deny who they were, but some were made to despise who they were to the point of having to kill.

Speaker 11 It's such a fucking heavy concept. Well, what's crazy too is if, like, for the victim side, it's also that thing of like when you

Speaker 11 make fun of people for that thing, you make them less human and less, you identify with them less as a human being.

Speaker 11 And so when these horrible things happen to them, you can't have empathy for them because you don't think they are normal human beings. Right.

Speaker 11 And the other thing I was going to say was something really poignant about.

Speaker 11 Well, that, I mean, on top of that, which is an incredibly poignant thing to say, what you just said, is kind of it almost like that argument that was so popular online

Speaker 11 five years ago or whatever, of like, everything's funny, rape is funny, anything is funny.

Speaker 11 It like maybe in your small group of friends, that could be true to you and the people who are just like you. But in the larger scheme of things, that's exactly right.

Speaker 11 It's dehumanizing to people and

Speaker 11 it's dehumanizing to situations where it's like, but that's actually not the case for everyone.

Speaker 11 And this, it feels like these days, the attempt, almost subconscious, societal, you know, as a human race, we're just trying to be more connected and more empathetic to each other, no matter who that other person is.

Speaker 11 And so if that person isn't like you and might not laugh at those same jokes as you, of course, you can still tell whatever fucking joke you want.

Speaker 11 But the idea is, are you going to make a human connection or not? Are you going to cancel that connection forever? Because you so value your momentary need to say whatever the fuck you want.

Speaker 11 And I think more and more people are being like, what the fuck is wrong with you that you need to make fun of these people?

Speaker 11 And I think what's really cool nowadays too is like we're so much more willing to call people out on their shit. Yeah.
Like, why are you making a rape joke?

Speaker 11 And when you do make a rape joke with five of your friends, you don't know if one of them has been raped. And so they're never going to come forward because you're making it a joke.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 And I think that people are... more willing to call other people out on it now.

Speaker 11 And because there's a psychological thing with people who can make jokes about that, that there's something fucking wrong with them. A hundred percent.
I think that's really what it's turning into:

Speaker 11 as opposed to talking about this as a need

Speaker 11 or a right or anything like that, it's just like, well, actually, it's just a reflection on you, which is really what it, I mean, it's all of these, it's a very complex thing.

Speaker 11 It's, it's all of these things at once, but ultimately, like for me as a person, it just makes me think of you as a person less. Yeah, definitely less.

Speaker 11 I just don't talk about that I think of you less, but I absolutely think of you less in the same way that, like, there are a lot of people who didn't grow up while AIDS was a thing.

Speaker 11 I was, I can remember the news report when they first reported AIDS as an issue in the Bay Area. I remember it.
I remember how my parents reacted.

Speaker 11 I remember the moment, I think I was like 11 and growing up under this.

Speaker 11 unbelievably scary, dark thing of AIDS. And then having my friend Ken Mason, who is one of my closest friends from sixth grade through high school,

Speaker 11 died when he was 22 years old because he was closeted and because he got AIDS.

Speaker 11 22 or 23.

Speaker 11 It was very, very sad. But like, when people make AIDS jokes, I don't go, never make that joke again or whatever.
I just go, oh, you don't get it. That's who you are.
You don't get it.

Speaker 11 But also that you don't get it. It's almost like proclaiming your ignorance of

Speaker 11 lack of empathy, but also just that you haven't really been through life that much. You haven't lived.
You're probably kind of spoiled. Both your parents are probably still alive.

Speaker 11 You know what I mean? Like when you decide that you get to make whatever race joke, you get to say the N-word, you all the shit that you think you can do

Speaker 11 just reflects on you. It's just about the quality of your character.
Totally. Why am I still talking?

Speaker 11 Because it's important.

Speaker 11 Steven, Stephen, all that out, please.

Speaker 11 Steven it out. Let's Let's all make this a mini so it's steven it out.
Steven it out. That's going to be our like break music.
Steven it out. Won't you steven it out?

Speaker 11 Always go up at the end. Steven it out.
Won't you steven it out?

Speaker 11 Steven it out.

Speaker 3 Okay, we're back.

Speaker 1 Do you have updates?

Speaker 2 I do, actually.

Speaker 2 In April 2021, one of the four victims discovered near an abandoned farmhouse in Lake Village, Indiana in October of 83 was identified using DNA and genetic genealogy as John Brandenburg Jr.

Speaker 2 He was 19 and originally from Kentucky and he went missing from Chicago.

Speaker 2 Then in December 2021, another victim, William Lewis of Peru, Indiana, was identified as a victim discovered in Jasper County, Indiana in October of 83. He was also just 19.

Speaker 2 Then in July of 2023, Keith Bibbs, another one of the four Lake Village victims, was identified. He was the last of the four to be identified.
He was from Chicago and he was 16 years old.

Speaker 2 National Geographic created a docuseries, which I'd have to check out, called Naming the Dead.

Speaker 2 And the episode, The Hitchhiker, focuses on law enforcement efforts and DNA Doe Project, identifying two of Eiler's victims. That aired just recently in August, 2025.
So go check that out.

Speaker 2 Naming the Dead is what it's called.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that sounds good.

Speaker 2 It's so great that we're finally able to put names to these children. I mean, they're teenagers still.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I just, I hope that this just keeps unraveling and, you know.

Speaker 3 Yeah. All right.

Speaker 2 Let's do your story. This is one I've just never forgotten it.
Maybe it's because I live near Glendale, but it's just so disturbing.

Speaker 2 So wild. You know, let's listen to Karen's story about the pillow pyro.

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Speaker 11 All right, let me tell that story one more time. My murder story one more time.
Just to get it. Just to get it right.
Right.

Speaker 11 Did I make a lot of mistakes in the beginning of that? Can I redo it, Stephen? Not right now. He has all your fixes in there.
No, but like the words I missed.

Speaker 12 I'm just going to put Natalie in between.

Speaker 11 Oh, no, Natalie. I'm sorry.

Speaker 11 Do you want me to do mine? Yeah.

Speaker 11 Always and forever. Okay.

Speaker 11 Here's mine.

Speaker 11 This I got. I was watching forensic files as we all, I think, I swear to God, I think someone just very recently tweeted at me, do you watch forensic files? I'm not kidding.

Speaker 11 Karen

Speaker 11 about this. The answer is yes.
If there's a policeman in it, I've at least watched it one time. That's the rule.
Also, people are recommending BBC things. We don't have it yet.

Speaker 11 Don't ask me if it's a brand new. Okay, take this up.

Speaker 11 I've gone too far. Okay.

Speaker 11 I'm watching Forensic Files and I have a recovered memory of the best forensic files I've ever seen. And I'm like, how come I haven't done this one before? That's insane.
I love it.

Speaker 11 I love when that happens. Right.
And you're like, oh my God. Why haven't I? And it's like a big.
So

Speaker 11 this, when I watched this on Forensic Files the first time, I remember standing up and going, like, no way or something.

Speaker 11 It was one of those. So I was like,

Speaker 11 got to look this up. Got to find my info.
And it is insane.

Speaker 11 And it's an LA one. I want everyone to know that the word insane by Karen's hand gestures was written in lights.

Speaker 11 You did the written in lights across.

Speaker 11 It was like a Liz Manelli Broadway move. Uh-huh.
Insane. It was like if, um, yeah, like a cartoon then could put up sparkly lights.
Gling. That said insane.
That said insane. It was gorgeous.

Speaker 11 Okay, so this is

Speaker 11 the pillow pyro.

Speaker 11 Love it already. Right?

Speaker 11 So you may remember this. I don't know.
You're a little too young. Throughout the 80s in Southern California, there was a spate of arson fires that killed families.

Speaker 11 It cost tens of millions of dollars.

Speaker 11 went on for years

Speaker 11 and baffled authorities. And sometimes arson fires were being set up to three times a day.
Holy shit. In the Southland, as they like to call it on the news here in Los Angeles.

Speaker 11 One TV show that got canceled.

Speaker 11 Southland, the best. Starring Sean Oddseye.

Speaker 11 Okay, so.

Speaker 11 All of this is, I'm retelling you of forensic files. That's one of my favorites.
That's where I get the chronology, some of the wording, whatever.

Speaker 11 But also, within that forensic files, they talk to one of the talking heads is

Speaker 11 a famous crime writer, and he was also ex-LAPD detective. He was a detective for the LAPD for 20 years.
His name is Joseph Wambaugh, and he wrote a book called Fire Lover.

Speaker 11 So if you really want like the deep down story, which I would highly recommend, I think I want to read this book after I got

Speaker 11 those two hunting monsters. I've been listening to it.
That was kind of my thing that I was happy about this week. No, it's not.
No, it's not. But yes, it's not.
Everything else.

Speaker 11 But you have been listening to it? I've started listening to it. So have I.
Like all around the house. I can't stop.
I forgot to mention this in the beginning. Okay, we'll have to talk about it after.

Speaker 11 Okay. Okay.

Speaker 11 So anyway.

Speaker 11 Fire lovers next because this story is so fucking crazy. Take it.
Okay.

Speaker 11 But as I wrote, I'm taking the chronology and the shape of the story from the forensic file. Hanger.

Speaker 11 Okay.

Speaker 11 Okay, so

Speaker 11 this episode starts, and so I shall start, on October 10th, 1984,

Speaker 11 because it's very good storytelling. Just started on the day that the San Diego Padres are playing the Detroit Tigers in the World Series.
Oh, everyone remembers that.

Speaker 11 Actually, I bet Vince remembers exactly where he was. I'm sure he does, right? Detroit boy and all.
And I believe they were playing in San Diego. So,

Speaker 11 or maybe not. No, no, no.
I'll ask Vince. It doesn't matter.
Stephen, Stephen, Stephen. Okay.

Speaker 11 So it starts on October 10th, 1984. The San Diego Padres are playing the Detroit Tigers in the World Series, and there's a hardware store in South Pasadena called Oli's.

Speaker 11 I don't know if you remember that chain of hardware stores. It's like a, you know,

Speaker 11 it's basically like old school Home Depot. Sure.

Speaker 11 So they interview a guy named Jim Obedam who worked there in high school. And he's talking about how he notices nobody's there because the World Series and the Padres are playing in the World Series.

Speaker 11 So there's no business except for like a few people scattered around the store. So he hears an emergency message over the PA, and then the fire alarm starts going off.

Speaker 11 And so he looks, he goes out into like the aisle and looks down, and there's a huge plume of smoke coming from like the back of the store, whatever.

Speaker 11 And so he turns and he starts helping the few customers that are there to try to get them out the fire exit doors. And as they're trying to walk toward it, it's just becomes a wall of flames.

Speaker 11 And the entire store is like up and fully engulfed. Like immediately, he said it happened so fast.
He got out of the store, but he had really bad burns on one arm.

Speaker 11 He said he touched his arm and skin just came off. No, no.
Yes.

Speaker 11 So

Speaker 11 he gets out, but

Speaker 11 four people got trapped in and killed in that fire. Oh my God.

Speaker 11 Two customers, grandmother Ada Diel, and her two-year-old grandson, Matthew Troydel, and then two employees, 17-year-old Jamie Satina and 26-year-old Carolyn Krause.

Speaker 11 They all died in that fire. Oh my gosh.
So, the official explanation was that it was an electrical fire.

Speaker 11 But

Speaker 11 the arson investigator from the Glendale Fire Department was on the scene. He believed it was arson right off the bat.
He took pictures, he documented the whole scene.

Speaker 11 When they were saying, We think it's an electrical fire, he was arguing with them.

Speaker 11 So then, January 1987, there's another fire at a different Ollie's hardware store. And

Speaker 11 this fire, so this is like three years later. Okay.

Speaker 11 Two and a half, three years later.

Speaker 11 This one is set in the foam padding section.

Speaker 11 Oh, God. Yeah.

Speaker 11 And then the same day, 90 miles away in Bakersfield, there's a fire at a Kraftmart store.

Speaker 11 And in the Bakersfield

Speaker 11 fire, Captain Marvin Casey arrives at the scene at that fire. And

Speaker 11 he finds in a bin of dry flowers a slow-burning incendiary device, which was three matches wrapped around a lit cigarette

Speaker 11 with binder paper rubber banded around the outside of all of it and then put into the dry flowers. So when the cigarette gets down to the butt, it lights the matches on fire?

Speaker 11 Yep, and then the matches light the paper and it's the whole thing is just this very rudimentary slow-burning incendiary that you would never

Speaker 11 that you would never look like notice look for. Right, exactly.
I'm so sorry. Elvis is eating the french fries that are on the

Speaker 11 counter.

Speaker 11 Sorry. He's going to vomit those on the bed in the middle of the night if those are not taken.

Speaker 11 Thank you, Steven.

Speaker 11 I think we should leave that in.

Speaker 11 I don't know, though, because you're like, I'm so sorry. Elvis is eating.

Speaker 11 Stephen, go get that. Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 11 You don't even move. I'm not getting up.

Speaker 11 I don't want to be rude. George's feet are above her head.
She is so reclined. Oh, I have a pillow between my legs.

Speaker 11 Okay.

Speaker 11 Sorry. No, no.

Speaker 11 Okay, so they find that incendiary vice in the dried flowers, Marvin Casey does.

Speaker 11 And then on the binder paper he finds a fingerprint so he sends that off to the lab and they're like we have to get that fingerprint but it is the 80s remember so everything's like 100 years old

Speaker 11 dear Xerox it's the Xerox version of everything

Speaker 11 everything's a fax machine

Speaker 11 of a carbon copy yeah it's like dittos

Speaker 11 okay

Speaker 11 So while Marvin Casey is at the scene of that fire at the Craft Smart store, he hears on the radio a second fire breaks out at a different fabric store in Bakersfield. The fuck?

Speaker 11 So

Speaker 11 the investigators that went to that fire found that that was also intentionally set with a slow burning incendiary device in the pillow and foam rubber section of the store.

Speaker 11 There were other suspicious fires in the neighboring towns north of Bakersfield, Tulari, and Fresno.

Speaker 11 So it's basically all these cities up and down Highway 99, which is basically in California, there's the five that goes up and down the entire state, which is what you drive when you're going from LA to San Francisco and you want to go 95 miles an hour the whole time.

Speaker 11 The 99 is in is further east and it's it's more of a two-lane highway. And you take that one when you're just smoking a bunch of grass.

Speaker 11 Okay.

Speaker 11 So Marvin Casey hears the reports on the radio and then he remembers there's an arson investigators convention in Fresno that weekend. Oh, my God.
And so

Speaker 11 he realizes that all of these fires are going up and down the 99 ending in Fresno, because Fresno is the northernmost of all the cities that that was happening in.

Speaker 11 And so he goes, he's thinking, what if this arsonist is a fireman? And

Speaker 11 he goes to his bosses

Speaker 11 and explains this theory to them. And they're like, you're fucking crazy.
That's insane.

Speaker 11 That's not true.

Speaker 11 Like, you know, they're, they're so not into that theory. They were like, think inside the matchbox.
Come on, but he was thinking outside the matchbox. Oh, oh, I get it.

Speaker 11 God. They basically say he's crazy.
Okay. That's what they say.
So

Speaker 11 they find matching slow-burning incendiary devices that match the Kraft Mart and the Ole fires.

Speaker 11 Then they take the print. He takes a print that's found.
It's entered into APHIS, but there's no matches in the national database. So

Speaker 11 he asks if he can cross-check all the fingerprints of the people who are at that arson investigation convention

Speaker 11 with this one fingerprint, and they say no.

Speaker 11 They said your theory is impossible and ridiculous. Okay, so two years later, in March of 1989, there's another spade of fires.

Speaker 11 This one's up and down the 101, and it's further north.

Speaker 11 Marvin Casey, once again, sees that there's an arson

Speaker 11 investigation symposium in Pacific Grove. So this is up by Monterey

Speaker 11 from what I looked on the map, unless there's another Pacific Grove.

Speaker 11 So basically what Marvin Casey does is he he narrows down a list of 10 people who were at the first arson symposium and the most recent arson symposium. I don't know if that's correct terminology.

Speaker 11 I would have guessed that he was, that whoever was doing the fires was like mocking them or fucking with the people, the firefighters at the symposium. Right.
Could be. But he didn't.

Speaker 11 You mean like burning nearby, like how you can't get it? Yeah. Yeah.
Like you guys are all here and yet I'm still getting. Well, anything's possible at this point,

Speaker 11 except for my possibility.

Speaker 11 No, you're right. I mean, I think that's just so fascinating.
Yeah. That he thought of that.
Right.

Speaker 11 Okay, so.

Speaker 11 He makes the list of the 10 people who are at both.

Speaker 11 And

Speaker 11 he finally, they start working. There's been so many fires at this point, they bring in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.

Speaker 11 And so he gets ATF to cross-check the fingerprints

Speaker 11 with the one found on the incendiary device. There's no match.
So it confirmed that Marvin Casey's theory is no good. His bosses are like, okay, are you going to drop this now? Because

Speaker 11 that was your chance to prove it and your theory is wrong.

Speaker 11 So, then, two years later, in June of 1990, there's the College Hills fire. This is a fire that was in those hills above Glendale.
It burned 67 houses. Holy shit.

Speaker 11 It's one of the biggest wildfires in California history.

Speaker 11 And it was proven to be arson. So, by the year's end, by the end of 1990, it was clear that this arsonist was at it again.

Speaker 11 And finally, the ATF assigned special agent, I'm doing it too, special agent Mike Matassa to the case.

Speaker 11 He, in starting to work on it and look through all of the evidence and the facts, finds out about Marvin Casey's theory, and he thinks it's a good theory. So he

Speaker 11 goes back, he sees that the fingerprint didn't match anybody's. So he has the idea that

Speaker 11 this time he's going to cross-check that one fingerprint with anyone who's ever applied for a job with the city.

Speaker 11 So instead of being those specific dudes, it's just, if it is a fireman or whoever it could possibly be, we'll know if we cross-check it with the city fingerprints.

Speaker 11 It could be the fucking fire receptionist.

Speaker 11 Firehouse receptionist.

Speaker 11 It could be the fucking Dalmatian.

Speaker 11 It could be the trainer. Why didn't you notice that there were five little pads?

Speaker 11 Those

Speaker 11 points of comparison or whatever they call it. Okay, so,

Speaker 11 yeah, because you have to get your fingerprinted when you apply for a job with the city, comes back with a match.

Speaker 11 The match

Speaker 11 is a man named John Orr,

Speaker 11 who is the arson investigator for the Glendale Fire Department. He was he that guy at the first scene? Second scene.
Yes, at the first story I told.

Speaker 11 It's the guy that was there immediately saying this is arson. He was calling it out as arson? Yes.

Speaker 11 Yes. Tell me everything.
Okay.

Speaker 11 This is okay. At this point when they do this reveal in forensic files, I was like, wait, so what? Because they do it so perfectly that you're like, but who could this be? This is super weird.

Speaker 11 Or it's someone that wants to be a fireman. Yeah, because it wouldn't be the person.
That just makes no sense of the person there and being like, it was Arsenal. I know.
Because I did it.

Speaker 11 Like, that doesn't. Right? You're like, you're kind of stupid.
Or you're so smart. Well, it's, it's, it's that thing of like how

Speaker 11 serial killers get so narcissistic and so, you know, they're psychopaths.

Speaker 11 So they think they're smarter than everybody. They don't think think they're ever going to get caught.
And they really are, it's part of the

Speaker 11 joy of doing it is being setting it and then being the first one there to explain to everybody how it happened.

Speaker 11 Or showing up and thinking someone else is going to be like, it's arson, but everyone else is like, it's natural. He's like, no, give me credit for how smart I am.

Speaker 11 They're just saying it's fucking.

Speaker 11 Isn't

Speaker 11 it

Speaker 11 a single investment? Real smart over here. Look over in the pillows.
Okay, so

Speaker 11 here's the deal with John Orr. He applied to be a Los Angeles policeman first.
He all his life wanted to be a policeman.

Speaker 11 He passed every test except for the psychological exam. Uh-oh.
Yeah. That can't be that hard to cheat, right?

Speaker 11 I mean, his psych profile, here's the quote from it, from the results of that test.

Speaker 11 It says, he's a schizoid person who is withdrawn from people and may have sexual confusion on his orientation. orientation?

Speaker 11 That comes out in a cop test. I don't understand.
I want to take it. Can we get the LAPD to send us two cop tests? Not the one where you have to climb over a wall, dry.
No, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 11 That one I fucking hate. You know, when they scramble straight up like a wooden wall, yeah.
Oh, it makes me want to. I want to light

Speaker 11 that wooden wall on fire. Yes, with a slow-burning incendiary.
And take a psychological test where I go sit indoors in an air conditioning. And pass it.
And pass it with lighting colors.

Speaker 11 Okay, so then he applies to be an LA fire department. Okay.
A fireman. He applies to be the department.
He wants to become the entire department.

Speaker 11 He applies to be a fireman in LA, but he can't pass the physical.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 11 Which

Speaker 11 I mean, could anyone. For real, because also it's not just being a fireman, but you're in a fireman in LA.
Oh, my God. Where it's kind of like the cream of the crop, anyway, in terms of people.

Speaker 11 A lot of people come here who have big muscles. Sure.

Speaker 11 Anyhow.

Speaker 11 And email Karen.

Speaker 11 If you're one of those. How big are your muscles? Let me know.

Speaker 11 Yeah, because I'm super into that. I know that's what you're into.
Big muscles. Totally.

Speaker 11 Okay.

Speaker 11 So he doesn't pass the physical. He's crushed.
So then he kind of like lays low for a while.

Speaker 11 Then he applies to the Glendale Fire Department, which is less tony and exciting and status-y, obviously, than the LA Fire Department,

Speaker 11 and probably easier to get into.

Speaker 11 So he gets in, and he actually does very well, and he quickly is promoted to captain, and then eventually to arson investigator.

Speaker 11 So

Speaker 11 John Orr was also on Marvin Casey's list of the 10 people who were at both of those arson

Speaker 11 conferences. Yep.

Speaker 11 And

Speaker 11 later on, they found that the only reason his fingerprint didn't match, it was just like a lab mistake.

Speaker 11 It was the same fingerprint. Oh, yeah.
So that was almost, and also then I thought, ooh, or did somebody go, this can't get out, or this can't

Speaker 11 be found out? Sure. Although that'd be insane because then it's like, but then we'll let all of Glendale burn just to hide this one fact.
Mammy, it won't happen again. Oh,

Speaker 11 my God.

Speaker 11 Dang it.

Speaker 11 67 houses. So

Speaker 11 after seven years of arson fires, they finally have a suspect.

Speaker 11 But the fingerprint only puts him at one of the fires, so they have to put him under surveillance. So it's so hilarious in this forensic files.

Speaker 11 They talk all about GPS versus the tracker that they use on his car. And they're explaining GPS

Speaker 11 because no one knew what it was.

Speaker 11 This man talking about like satellite technology as such, where I was like, oh my God, we live like in this triple future totally compared to 1993 or whenever this okay totally it's just so weird i love it so this is basically what happened and i wish i couldn't find anything else about the specifics of this day and i so wish i could also i tried yeah i'll talk about it after

Speaker 11 they find his car they locate so they put a tracker on his car

Speaker 11 and they find once they get all this information they're like find him now he has to be off the street you know um they find that he's at the Warner Brothers lot in Burbank.

Speaker 11 And soon after they locate his car there, a fire breaks out on one of the TV show sets. Are you kidding me? I swear to God.
And I was like, which one was it, Alf?

Speaker 11 You don't know? I thought you were going to make me guess. No, I wish I could.
Oh, someone's got to know this. Someone's got to know.
And that's what I was going to say.

Speaker 11 It could be in, there was a made-for-HBO movie called Point of Origin

Speaker 11 starring Ray Liota playing this guy. Radical.
And I'm sure it's in there, but the only, I could find no versions of it, not on HBO, go, nowhere, not on YouTube, there's a version of it.

Speaker 11 Have you ever seen this? Where people illegally upload movies, and so they put it into almost like a mortise. So

Speaker 11 it's a TV screen like yours, but turned to the side.

Speaker 11 The speed of the movie is speeded up like times two. So it's Ray Liota being like, get over here and take a look at this evidence.
Like everything's going really fast. I have no idea about that.

Speaker 11 And also, there's an Asian girl standing there with a remote control pointed at the TV. Like that's all static.
And then the movie's happening in the screen.

Speaker 11 You have to see it. It's hilarious.

Speaker 11 If you look up Point of Origin. Okay.

Speaker 11 That's how

Speaker 11 that's a 1990s ripoff of a movie.

Speaker 11 Yes.

Speaker 11 That's how you pirate a movie. In 1991.
I tried to watch it for like four minutes and I was like, this is not fucking worth it. I feel like I'm about to go insane.
Okay, so anyway.

Speaker 11 But someone can, and I bet you in that, they say exactly what show they're on. So, anyhow, he leaves.

Speaker 11 Okay, so basically, they find that he's at the Warner Brothers lot, then they get the alarm, a fire has broken out on the Warner Brothers.

Speaker 11 Elf's burning, his whole back is on fire. Someone get over there right away.

Speaker 11 Which is funny because there is a fire department on the Warner Brothers lot. There's actually like a fire truck and a fire house and everything right there.
Anyhow, ask me anything.

Speaker 11 So they track him driving away from the Warner Brothers lot. And then when he gets the official call on his radio at home, he drives back.
But

Speaker 11 the radio operator gave the wrong address. So she's like, there's a fire at diddo did it.
He drives straight back to the Warner Brothers lot. They did that on purpose? Yes.

Speaker 11 Well, they say it was, they say,

Speaker 11 bullshit. They make it sound like it was the dispatcher's mistake.
But I bet you that was the test. Yeah.

Speaker 11 Because you don't need to know the address of the Warner Brothers lot. It's like the main thing in Burbank.
Totally.

Speaker 11 Anyhow, that's when they knew it was absolutely him because he, with being given a different address, still went to where the fire was. So they're like, arrest him now.

Speaker 11 So that's, they're like, all right, I just said that. Okay.

Speaker 11 So they get a search warrant for his home and car, and then inside a briefcase, they find matches, binder paper, cigarettes, and rubber buttons. Oh, you ding-dong.

Speaker 11 He claims it's a coincidence and that he's totally innocent. In his home, they find home video

Speaker 11 that starts with a shot of a beautiful hillside home. And it's like, it runs like that for like a couple minutes.

Speaker 11 And then it stops and it starts up again at the same home 18 months later, burning to the ground.

Speaker 11 So it was all like planned. 18 months.
18 months. He had planned it.

Speaker 11 It's so crazy. Okay, so then they also find in his house a manuscript for a book called Points of Origin that he's writing.
He

Speaker 11 go ahead. He wrote it? He's writing a book about...
What do you think the book's about?

Speaker 11 Where he's from in Europe, his point of origin.

Speaker 11 It's a book about an arson investigator who's actually really a serial arsonist.

Speaker 11 Does Ray Layota in the book version play him

Speaker 11 already?

Speaker 11 What do you mean? In the book version? Because Ray Leota. Never mind.
That's the movie name from the HBO. That's exactly right.
So he's writing it?

Speaker 11 Well, yeah, but it's not.

Speaker 11 He didn't write the movie version. Because that wouldn't go like, well, it'll just use his.

Speaker 11 He even said Casare Leota, so we're going to do it. No, they basically go to his house and find a script that is his story,

Speaker 11 but with a different name.

Speaker 11 The arson investigator's name is Aaron Stiles. But here's the

Speaker 11 list of similarities between the book and the facts of the case.

Speaker 11 Both are firefighters. Both are non-smokers.
Both, Both, this is from a legal document.

Speaker 11 Both use a delay incendiary device designed to fully ignite the fire approximately 10 to 15 minutes after the device is in place.

Speaker 11 In one draft of the manuscript, it describes a match attached to a cigarette and placed inside a paper bag,

Speaker 11 similar to the actual facts of the binder paper, match of the binder paper. Both start fires in retail stores located in Los Angeles during business hours.

Speaker 11 Both place the incendiary device in combustible materials located in the store. Both start fires in the drapery section at a Los Angeles fabric store.

Speaker 11 Both start fires in display of styrofoam products. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 11 Both start fires in the hardware stores. Both start fires in several retail stores in close proximity to one another within a short span of time on the same day.

Speaker 11 Both start fires in the same locations while both the character and the actual arsonist were traveling to or from arson investigators conferences in Fresno. Oh my.

Speaker 11 He's like, he's admitting to the whole thing. Yeah.
In a stupid script. It's basically a script called My Diary of Being at Serial Arsenist.
And he's, does he say, it's a coincidence? Yeah.

Speaker 11 It's such a strange coincidence. But

Speaker 11 what's not in that document, but what is in the script, is that his lead character sets these fires and then writes about watching them with an erection or while masturbating.

Speaker 11 And one scene in the manuscript, he can't get an erection until he starts a fire.

Speaker 11 What if that were true? What if that were your thing? What if that was your thing? What if you couldn't?

Speaker 11 How do you figure that out? And then how do you make it work? And then, like, don't. Well, you know what it is? Just don't get an erection anymore.
It's fine. I don't know.
I don't know if that's...

Speaker 11 I don't know if that's fine. Is that not an option for some people?

Speaker 11 Who would it be for? I mean.

Speaker 11 Look.

Speaker 11 Listen. Listen.
At one point in the book, he describes his lead character raping and killing a woman and then burning her in her car.

Speaker 11 Authorities found a similar case where the body of a woman was found raped and murdered in a burnt-out car, but they couldn't find any hard evidence to connect John Orr with that crime.

Speaker 11 Also in the book, the main character talked about setting several fires at once so that the fireman would be overwhelmed, allowing him to watch one of the fires burn freely until it was totally out of control.

Speaker 11 Oh my God. And that same character also talked about one of the victims of one of the fires he sets being a two-year-old boy named Matthew.
Are you serious?

Speaker 11 So the exact victim of one of his fires, he's writing about in this script.

Speaker 11 And that was the detail that cinched it for the investigators. They were just like, so he's arrested and he's charged with numerous counts of arson and four counts of first-degree murder.

Speaker 11 In 1998, he's sentenced to life in prison plus 20 years without the possibility of parole. He has never admitted that he's guilty,

Speaker 11 which is one of the many signs that he's a psychopath.

Speaker 11 He's motivated by his ego, by delusions of grandeur. He believes that he's smarter and better than everyone.

Speaker 11 No remorse, no guilt.

Speaker 11 And he's a great actor and highly manipulative. There's actually, I found a couple clips of him talking.
He got interviewed,

Speaker 11 it's before he got caught, being interviewed and talking on the news about one of the fires.

Speaker 11 And he's, you would, he's telling people the way he speaks, even though he's not like that exciting of a person,

Speaker 11 you can tell how he is like so kind of strangely alluring. He's very sharp and very clear-eyed and very like knows all the details.
He's a real expert. Really, yeah, really interested in what,

Speaker 3 yeah,

Speaker 11 crazy. Um,

Speaker 11 so ATF agent Mike Matassa believes that between 1984 and 1991, John Orr set at least 2,000 fires. What? And perhaps up to 10,000 fires.
What the fuck?

Speaker 11 Some arson investigators and an FBI criminal profiler have deemed Orr to be one of the worst American serial arsonists of the 20th century.

Speaker 11 Before his arrest, the average number of brush fires in the hills above Glendale and Burbank were 67 a year. After his arrest, that number dropped to three.

Speaker 11 Oh my fucking God. So he was doing all of them for almost a decade.
It was all him, essentially.

Speaker 11 Oh, and then I just started watching a video about what it actually means to be a psychopath because we've had so many discussions about psychopath, sociopath,

Speaker 11 all the different languages that we use. And it's basically the psychopath.
What I think is super interesting is that they have absolutely no empathy or connection to other people's feelings.

Speaker 11 And it's that thing where, like,

Speaker 11 to imagine, like, you could kind of break it down of like, so you're an arsonist, you're, you have like almost like a sexual fetish for fire. So you're forced to set these fires.

Speaker 11 That's one thing where you're just like, you can't control it.

Speaker 11 To set a fire during business hours of a large business and then four people get trapped inside that fire and die, and you still write about them like it's fiction, like it's just this fun idea you have.

Speaker 11 Like he has absolutely no connection to other human beings. Does that mean that, does that mean that they don't have feelings like us either?

Speaker 11 Like, if you can't be empathetic towards other people's feelings, does it mean you don't know what it's like to be sad?

Speaker 11 You don't know what it's like to be happy or angry or no, I think they have their own feelings, they just don't understand.

Speaker 11 So, this is kind of interesting, and this could be completely off,

Speaker 11 but this is my own personal theory because my therapist is really into like all that brain research and how like a lot of times we blame ourselves for just what our natural brain does so like people are like I'm super anxious but actually like our brain our amygdala

Speaker 11 like is set to it trains us to look for for predators constantly so if you're not thinking about the past if you're not like going over what you did the last time you tried to go hunt a bison or whatever then if if you're in the present, you're just scanning for danger.

Speaker 11 And that's our natural brain set. It's either, excuse me,

Speaker 11 reviewing the past for mistakes or scanning the present or possible future for danger.

Speaker 11 These days, people think that means I'm crazy. When it's like, no, no, that's the natural set point of your brain.
I'm anxious.

Speaker 11 It's like, no, you're just constantly scanning for things that could go wrong. Right.
And maybe you're overdoing it because of whatever reasons, but it's normal to be like that.

Speaker 11 But I think part of the reason people think they're overdoing it is because people think they're supposed to be at some zen

Speaker 11 neutral nothing where it's like, no, an active mind is a natural thing.

Speaker 11 Especially a mind that's like, be careful, be careful, be careful. That makes me feel better.
Yeah, it's like why we're alive.

Speaker 11 It's why we, our ancestors, lived and other people died because that part of their brain didn't work as well. Yeah, motherfuckers.
It's not as bad as you think.

Speaker 11 But so this other part, there's lots of theory that she told me that made me very happy. But the other one was, we have this thing called mirror neurons that they're just kind of now

Speaker 11 like doing research on and understanding. But it's the thing of like when you watch one of those videos of a soldier coming home and his dog losing its shit, right? Oh my God.

Speaker 11 And it just makes you cry. Yeah.
That's because that's not happening to you. Yeah.

Speaker 11 But your brain doesn't know that because your brain is watching another human being, which looks like you and seems like you, go through an experience that the mirror neuron goes, this is what it feels like when this happens.

Speaker 11 And then, like, right now, I'm getting getting tingles thinking about those videos because my brain goes it's you when you are taking in that information the way your brain process it's like you're having these emotions that that person's having exactly because you're empathetic and you can understand exactly and that's how we stay connected and that's how we make sure we have food every night yeah and shelter is because you need human connection yeah to survive like it's tribe mentality it's it's survival instincts right psychopaths have well i shouldn't say that because because that's now I'm making shit up.

Speaker 11 But one would say that they don't, they're not an ability. We know, I was about to say they don't have mirror neurons.

Speaker 11 I know nothing about that brain chemistry or anything, but we know for a fact they don't have empathy.

Speaker 11 So when they watch a soldier come home and its dog loses its shit and all those things, they just are watching a video of two things touching each other. So it's not like they get mad.

Speaker 11 He clearly has sexual feelings.

Speaker 11 He wants to be famous. He wrote this thing.
He wants different things. He just has no connectors to the people around him.

Speaker 11 And no, he doesn't understand if something happens to that person, it feels the same to them as it does when something bad happens to him.

Speaker 11 Wow.

Speaker 11 That's heavy. I overexplained that, but

Speaker 11 I really felt like an expert. And sometimes you just want to keep on feeling like an expert.
If there's any corrections, Cornish, for that, save it.

Speaker 11 Just let me be right this one time. Have some empathy.
If you have empathy, you wouldn't correct Corner that. Come on.
I'm going to go ahead and say you were right. Thank you.

Speaker 11 I mean, I think I was at least in the ballpark this time. Yeah.
Well, also, because I watch a really good,

Speaker 11 there's some real good videos. This can be my good thing of the week.
Okay.

Speaker 11 It's, I found these videos that are just, you know, those ones they explain something with an illustration. Oh, there's someone talking with

Speaker 11 it's being drawn. Yes, I get it now.
You put an arrow to a thing. Yes.
And suddenly it's clear.

Speaker 11 Oh, you just have a little Ikea guy that's actually acting it out now i get it he has a happy face and a sad face yeah and that's how you know how he's feeling but no hair for some reason too much so i found a series of videos by uh

Speaker 11 uh the people who make them are it's called psych to the number two go

Speaker 11 and so it's like um what what does it mean to be a psychopath or how to know if you're dating a sociopath or

Speaker 11 you know, how to deal with your anxiety, whatever. But then I'm like, what is psych2go? I've never heard of you before.
So I start looking into that.

Speaker 11 It brings me to a website that says psychology by millennials for millennials.

Speaker 11 And then it kicked you out. It was like, enter your birth date.
Get out of here, grandma. This is for

Speaker 11 you to enter your birthday. And it's like, eh, eh.
Sorry.

Speaker 11 Sorry.

Speaker 11 It made me laugh so hard that it's like, finally, psychology for me.

Speaker 11 Psychology I can relate to.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 11 But actually, it seems like a good website. Yeah.
I was just trying to make sure it wasn't like secretly Scientology or something. Sure, sure.

Speaker 11 And then it was like, and anyways, kill, kill, kill Karen. And then send us the money.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 No, it wasn't that. Well, that's sweet.

Speaker 11 My positive thing is that Vince and I are going away for my birthday for a couple of days, and I just can't wait to get out of the city and go antiquing.

Speaker 11 I want to eat so much food.

Speaker 11 Maybe there'll be a massage in there. Oh, hey.
I just need to get out of town for a day or two. It's going to be so nice.
And you're going to be by the ocean, right? Yeah.

Speaker 11 So you get to have some of them negative ions, which is real good for you. Does that happen? That's the ocean air.
That's why ocean air always feels good and like makes you feel refreshed.

Speaker 11 It's them negative ions that we don't get in this polluted city.

Speaker 11 I'm into it.

Speaker 2 All right, we're back. Karen, do you have any updates?

Speaker 1 I do. So let's see.
Well, John John Orr continues to serve his life sentence. He still maintains his innocence.
He claims that he had an ironclad alibi, but his lawyers wouldn't listen.

Speaker 1 And that he pleaded guilty to save his wife, who is now his fourth ex-wife, from bankruptcy.

Speaker 1 So kind of interesting. Apple TV has a 2025 series called Smoke that was inspired by this story.
And Taryn Edgerton, who's the guy that played Elton John,

Speaker 1 is the star. And then Jernie Smollett, who you might remember from Lovecraft Country, so good in that.
So she's the detective. And then Taryn Edgerton is the fire investigator with the dark past.

Speaker 1 And they hunt down some serial arsonists. And also, there's a podcast called Firebug from 2021.

Speaker 1 And it chronicles the investigation into these fires through interviews and excerpts from that manuscript that Bohr wrote. So that story is just so crazy.

Speaker 1 I will always remember learning about it and then just being like, this cannot be real.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Beyond.

Speaker 2 The audacity of evil is just like beyond comprehension for people who aren't evil, which is, I guess, why we do this.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 And like sitting in, when you live in the valley and you look at that hillside all the time and they were catching on fire constantly, it was just like it became this just, well, this is just how it is.

Speaker 1 And there must be a scientific reason and a natural kind of reason. Instead, it's the fucking fire chiefs.

Speaker 1 The fire chiefs doing it.

Speaker 4 Just wild.

Speaker 2 All right, let's head back in to wrap up the show.

Speaker 11 Okay, bye. No, wait, that was fun.
Should we wrap it up? I feel like we didn't wrap it up correctly.

Speaker 11 That was good. I like your fire story.
Thank you. Yeah.

Speaker 11 I want to watch that. The whole time in my mind, I was like picturing how the forensic files would look.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 So as you were telling it to me, I was like, oh, yeah, then this thing would happen, like, how bad the reenactments probably were from the 90s.

Speaker 11 And yes, there was a lot of, they had a lot of home video. Oh, okay.
Like the dawn of like real. Because it was his home video.
Yes. He would go to the fucking fires and set up his video camera.
Dude.

Speaker 11 Or his, he had

Speaker 11 a lot of like hard copy photos. Fuck.
Yeah. It's the craziest,

Speaker 11 like, I think that might be my favorite:

Speaker 11 the person that's been wearing a mask and then doing horrifying things and no one knows. And like, it's almost like people don't want to know.
Yeah. I wish someone would talk to him.

Speaker 11 It's crazy that he's still alive and like has all this information, but won't even admit to it so we can like

Speaker 11 figure him out.

Speaker 11 Oh, no. In his mind,

Speaker 11 it's another one of those things. He's being victimized.
He is completely innocent. He has never admitted to anything.
That's so weird. I wonder what that is all about, too.
He's a psychopath.

Speaker 11 They don't admit they're.

Speaker 11 Even if he knows, does he know he did it? Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
How can he think he's tricking anyone? He's in jail for the rest of his life.

Speaker 11 I guess, well, he did trick people for so long. And it's the, that's part of the mental illness.
Right. It's like they're, they think they're kind of the king of the world.

Speaker 11 Well, shit. I mean, fuck.

Speaker 11 Don't do it. Look.
Stay away. If you do anything, if you don't do anything, please let it be light everything on fire.

Speaker 11 Yeah. Right.

Speaker 11 Yes. I mean, you've heard me say that a million times.
Isn't that your lower back touching?

Speaker 11 It wraps all the way around my haunch.

Speaker 11 Your cackles.

Speaker 11 It wraps around your cockles. I want to get my cockles up.

Speaker 3 Okay, we're back.

Speaker 1 So this episode was originally named Steven It Out, which we were basically using Steven's name as a substitute for editing. And

Speaker 1 so if we were going to name it today, what would we call it, Georgia?

Speaker 2 We'd call it bitch color wheel.

Speaker 3 Hell yeah.

Speaker 4 Different ways to be a bitch, a beautiful rainbow.

Speaker 2 Oh, and then of course, my birthday wish for myself, learn to levitate.

Speaker 10 Yes.

Speaker 1 Live it, love it, learn to levitate was one of my, the funniest things, not only funniest things you've ever said, made me laugh so hard, but then somebody made that that unbelievable graphic for it that had like a tree line, a beautiful kind of like nature.

Speaker 1 That was one of the first things I think I saw it on Facebook where I'm like, oh my God, they're paying attention to what we're saying and then making things because literally, if you ask me what the dumbest thing I've said on this podcast is, it's that.

Speaker 4 I don't understand why you liked it, why anyone liked it.

Speaker 1 It's just because that's just, it's you being a fast brain, which is always fun. But then it was like you were just yes and

Speaker 1 you were yes anding something dumb and then being like, this is what I'm all about or whatever.

Speaker 3 And it was hilarious. It was just hilarious.

Speaker 2 Just try it.

Speaker 2 Try saying the stupid thing, everyone. You never know and it'll end up on a t-shirt.

Speaker 1 And who fucking cares anyway? Right.

Speaker 2 All right. Well, thanks for listening.
We're going to let Mimi silently say goodbye way back in 2017.

Speaker 11 Thanks for listening, you guys. You guys are the fucking sweetest.

Speaker 11 You're number one. Number one.
Stephen, thank you. Steven, thank you for all your accents this week.

Speaker 12 And pretty good things.

Speaker 11 Oh, there was a moment of thinking. Mimi, thank you for your input this week.

Speaker 11 Come on now. This one, Mimi.
All right.

Speaker 11 Mimi's like, no, that's not. I'm not that one.
No comment. And I think while I did that, I broke this microphone.
So that was great. You yanked it right down.
I didn't mean to.

Speaker 11 Well, thanks for listening, you guys. Yeah, stay sexy.
And don't get murdered. Elvis, you want cookie?

Speaker 11 Mimi, want cookie?

Speaker 11 Well, that was Elvis. Mimi?

Speaker 11 Okay, bye.

Speaker 13 So, usually on OK Storytime, our audience will send in their relationship problems, and the OK Storytime squad gives some good advice goofily. But today, we're not giving out our usual advice.

Speaker 13 Our producer Riley says we're giving something else. So, what are we doing today, Riley?

Speaker 6 Today, we're playing a little game.

Speaker 6 A game, says the man.

Speaker 14 I'll bought special gifts for you guys from eBay. Each one picked with one of you in mind.
Yeah, Dakota, if you want to guess.

Speaker 13 All right, there is a gift at my feet.

Speaker 6 Open that.

Speaker 9 And now it is in my hands.

Speaker 8 Oh!

Speaker 13 I feel like it's got to be our resident gamer key.

Speaker 6 This is the rectangle of childhood.

Speaker 13 It's a portable game console. I used to have this as a kid.

Speaker 5 This game console, I used to play all the time.

Speaker 13 And, you know, when your mom came into the room when you were a kid and, like, you're pretending to sleep. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 But, Riley, what a thoughtful gift. Yeah, Riley.

Speaker 13 Thank you so much.

Speaker 6 Riley, you're crushing it. But we have one more gift.
Yeah, we got another one. Let's open it.
Grab it. Let's open it.
Boom. Oh, camera.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 6 An old timey camera. That's right.
Classic.

Speaker 13 This is awesome. Yeah.
Because you know how I love to take pictures on my travels.

Speaker 14 Yeah, you're always somewhere.

Speaker 13 Whether it's in Kyrgyzstan with some nomad or just New York, you know, with a nice little piece of trash or a wrap.

Speaker 6 Just nice little headsets.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm taking pictures with the birds.

Speaker 6 So, Riley, you got all this from eBay?

Speaker 14 Dude, eBay, it was really fun finding it with you guys. Like, I had very specific things for each one of you.

Speaker 6 Yeah,

Speaker 6 it was all there.

Speaker 7 Thanks, Riley, and thank you, eBay.

Speaker 14 And, guys, shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 6 eBay, thanks, people love.

Speaker 9 Hey, Ryan Reynolds here, wishing you a very happy half-off holiday because right now, Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service.

Speaker 9 And Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price.

Speaker 2 So, that means a half day.

Speaker 9 Yeah? Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch.

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Speaker 3 See Mintmobile.com.

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