484 - Copse of Trees

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Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder.

That's Georgia Hartstark.

That's Karen Kilgareth.

Can I tell you something sad?

Yeah.

And I don't know what to do with.

There is a dead crow in my pool this morning.

No.

Is that a bad omen for me or for the crow?

Well, it's definitely for the crow.

And are all the other crows in the neighborhood going to think that we killed their friends?

They don't think you're responsible for the pool, I bet.

But what if they say, what are they flying over when I was trying to get them out?

And it looked like I was drowning.

You're afraid the crows are coming for you?

Yeah.

Like after everything I've done for the crows.

I mean, they got to have some good faith in your participation, but what did you do with the crow's body?

I left it it for Vince to deal with.

Good.

Because then he's going to look it up to be like, what do crows want you to do in this situation?

Right.

Right.

I don't know.

Have a bonfire, but I don't know.

It was so disturbing.

And also like, how did it die?

Why?

Is there something more we should worry about?

I'm not going in that pool ever again.

So

we should probably move.

Sure.

I think you should make a bunch of decisions like that based on this.

Don't look anything up.

Don't.

It was so sad.

Yeah, that's awful I was like hoping it was just yeah yeah that's rough also it's like I think the connection of like birds and omens and stuff and a crow of all

the fucking thing like and then your favorite so it's almost like right that's very sad which is worse that or when I found the dug-up cremains of a pet in my front yard I think that this crow is worse because the crow is like the cremains were like a bag of something and then you're just like what but right I don't know viewers will you vote at home which is worse

which is worse than georgia

and then describe how it's worse for georgia and what you think is going to be happening to her like a witch knocks at your door did you drown my crow oh god i have had birds fly into the house and i always was taught or heard that birds in the house are very bad luck like that they

foretell moths are good but i mean but here's the thing it's like the way my house is there's windows at the back and front and birds think it's it's a throughway.

Totally.

So I've had so many birds in my house that at this point, I'm just like, it's not proving out to be a real thing.

Okay.

That's good to know.

Yeah.

But I just, it's like, be careful about birds.

Be careful about.

Yeah.

Be kind to birds.

Be kind to birds.

Can you throw out a couple sparkly things for them to be happy about?

I'll do that.

Yeah.

Or dog treats.

They like dog treats.

They give me sparkly things, right?

Oh, I guess that's true.

I'll give them dog treats.

I thought they like sparkly things.

I'll give them sparkly things though.

Throw a diamond out there.

Throw a diamond.

Here's my wedding ring.

I'm sorry for your friend.

The loss of a friend is very difficult.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Okay, so we're going to follow through on something we've talked about in the past.

Can you believe it?

So a couple weeks ago, I gave Karen a book, a self-help book, and we decided we're going to do a self-help book club.

And so we just want to remind you guys to pick up this book if you want to follow along.

It's called Emotional Agility, Get Unstuck, Embrace Change, and Thrive in Work and Life by Susan David.

So while we're on our little vacation, we're going to both read that probably,

maybe, or you'll never hear about it again.

We're going to do it because people want a book club of some kind and we can at least approach it.

And I did like your original idea, which is read it and then you say what you learned and I'll say what I learned.

Yeah.

And then the next time you pick one.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

And people can write in.

But also, who recommended that book to you first?

Your therapist?

No, no.

It was on one of those like 10 books that'll change your life.

Oh,

nice.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So.

Are you ready to have your life changed?

I'm ready and willing.

I need it.

Okay.

Then I'm excited about this because I'm interested in reading this book, but I just don't make time for reading.

Yeah.

So it will make me do that.

Yeah.

Like you have to.

Take that book with me on my break and then get through it and treat it as homework.

If you don't do it, a crow will die.

No, no.

We will drown a crow.

We'll drown one crow for every shit.

You're just like outside drinking your coffee like it's today is going to be a great day.

Anything else?

I don't think so.

Should we just talk about our network?

Sure, yeah.

Let's talk about our podcast network called My Favorite.

Nope.

Called Exactly Right Media.

Oh, well, this is kind of breaking news about the fan cults.

We basically...

We're taking new members because we're now offering ad-free audio, which people have been asking us for for years and years.

We've been at different companies that offer it here and there, whatever, but we now offer it ourselves.

You just have to join the fan cults.

Yep, it's not a big deal.

Just do it.

And this is your last chance.

This is your last warning to join the fan cult right now at a discounted price.

So now through Friday, June 13th, you can get the old price of just $3.33 a month for the You're in a Cult tier and $8 a month for the Call Your Dad tier.

So go to fancult.supercast.com to join.

Yeah.

$8 a month or there's a, the yearly is actually less than what $8 a month would add up to

$80.

Yeah.

It's a deal all around.

Eight times 12 is 80?

No, I think it's cheaper.

I don't know.

96.

Okay.

So it's, yeah, so there's a discount all around.

You want to pay for the year, you'll get an even bigger discount.

That's right.

We're trying to point out that we're passing the savings along to you.

I'm crazy, Larry.

I've got to get rid of these TVs.

I can't do basic multiplication.

I'm crazy, Larry.

I can't tell you how much 12 times 8 is.

That's too bad, Karen.

But guess what?

We can tell you about merch.

That's right.

Because we have this cute pin to show you.

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So look at that.

Look at the action on that pin.

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And what are those emotions?

It's, are you stay out at the forest?

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Fuck everyone.

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And that's like, if you want to only communicate through these pins, we support you entirely and just throw it right over to go fuck yourself.

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That's very cute.

So go to exactly rightstore.com to order those pins.

Get yours now before they're all sold out again.

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There's more to San Francisco with the Chronicle.

There's more food for thought, more thought for food.

There's more data insights to help with those day-to-day choices.

There's more to the weather than whether it's going to rain.

And with our arts and entertainment coverage, you won't just get out more, you'll get more out of it.

At the Chronicle, knowing more about San Francisco is our passion.

Discover more at sfchronicle.com.

This is Danielle Fischel from Pod Meets World.

What do you think of when you hear Amazon Prime?

Delivery trucks outside your home?

Your favorite streaming shows?

Of course, but there's so much more.

Whatever you love, that's what Prime is.

Prime helps you get more out of whatever passions you're into, and it helps you discover new ones.

There's nothing I find more fun than falling into a rabbit hole of options, whether it's beauty products, toys for my kids, or a 20-pack of beef jerky bags, you know, just in case we need it.

As a type A person, I have a passion for making sure everything in my house is taken care of, and there is no better way to keep my family in line than Amazon Prime.

It's more than just free or same-day delivery, although that's incredible.

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You've got the home shopping network thing down.

You know what?

I love merch and I love getting through a solo episode.

Yeah, you don't have to do jack shit now.

You know, it's the best.

Okay.

Now it's work time for me.

Okay.

Do you need anything from me?

No.

I think I'm okay.

Just like weird, steely stare.

Yeah, definitely like stare me down.

Okay.

Make me really uncomfortable.

Okay.

Or I'm going to do this thing the second you look up.

I'm going to look down.

Just some truth.

Go through your papers or something like that.

Just a lot of under audio.

Okay.

Get serious.

This is a serious one.

Yep.

It's a heavy hitter.

Okay.

I didn't want to do it until I read the autobiography about it, and I did.

So today's story is about a kidnapping in June of 2002 in Salt Lake City, which can only mean one thing.

This is the kidnapping and survival story of Elizabeth Smart.

And it's her version of it?

Yes.

It's called My Story.

I read it.

It's incredible.

Brilliant.

It's just like so moving.

And then there's also a docuseries that she's in called Autobiography, Elizabeth Smart.

And then the rest of their sources can be found in the show notes.

Here we are.

It's June 6th, 2002.

Do you know this one well?

Not well.

Yeah.

I mean, I know it enough to...

Like, if you asked me, I think I would pass a test.

Yes.

It's the one with that, but you don't know like the details.

Yes.

But here's one detail I do remember kind of separate, is our first show in Salt Lake City.

Remember the audience member that gave us the picture where it was Elizabeth Smart at the party?

Yes, I'm going to get to that.

It's so fucking crazy.

It's so crazy.

And then also, like, I always, I used to think of the JC Duggard story as well, which I also read her autobiography.

So they're very different, although they're similar in a lot of ways as well.

So it's June 6th, 2002.

It's a warm, quiet night in the Federal Heights neighborhood of Salt Lake City, Utah, obviously.

Federal Heights sits at the foothills of the Wasatch Mountains, perched above the downtown area.

So there's a lot of like, you know, mountainous terrain and how beautiful nature is in Utah.

Incredible.

Remember that view out that hotel we got to stay at?

Absolutely.

Yes, yes.

The mountains and then the fog rolled in.

No, you know what I remember is that they had hush tea.

I remember the food.

Yep.

We just had an, or maybe it was was just my room.

Maybe you were on the other side.

I had it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I faced the mountain range and then watched a storm front come over the mountain range and change the entire view and then go away.

And I was like, this is unbelievable.

I love weather.

It's just, we don't have it here.

Yeah, it's really cool.

So this is where the Smart family lives.

Ed and Lois Smart have six children, four boys and two girls.

Elizabeth is the second oldest child and the oldest girl, the big sister.

She's 14 years old and she's asleep in the room she shares with her nine-year-old sister, Mary Catherine.

At about two in the morning, Elizabeth opens her eyes to what seems like a nightmare, but within a few minutes, she realizes it's real.

It's a man standing in their bedroom, dressed all in black.

And then he's standing over her and she feels something cold and sharp against her neck.

And he says, quote, I have a knife to your throat.

Don't make a sound.

Get out of bed or I'll kill you and your family.

This is the rarest kind of a true crime.

Right.

This is the stranger abduction

is so rare and it's just so creepy and it's like everyone's worst nightmare.

And then imagine you're a kid and you're in a house of eight people, including sharing a room with your little sister.

Yep.

It's just unfathomable.

It's unfathomable.

And it's similar to Polyclass.

Exactly.

Taken out of a place where everyone is.

Feels safe.

Yeah.

Totally.

So Elizabeth says, quote, it really seemed like either do what he says and go with him or have your neck cut open and die, end quote.

The man makes Elizabeth get out of bed.

He makes her get her sneakers.

She asks him why he's doing this and he says, quote, I'm taking you hostage for ransom, end quote.

So as she's being walked through the hallway of her home, Elizabeth silently prays that her parents will wake up and come rescue her.

But she also worries that the man has already killed her family.

She doesn't know.

Right.

That's definitely a possibility.

So she only knows for sure that her little sister, who she shares a room with is still alive and she wants to keep it that way.

And so she complies.

The house remains silent and the man walks Elizabeth out the sliding glass door to the backyard.

Elizabeth's house is at the base of a mountain.

There's one more residential street behind the house and after that there's just a trail that goes uphill.

This story has so many moments of close calls.

of her being rescued that it's so frustrating.

And this immediately is one of them because a cop car drives by and doesn't see anything.

Nightmare.

Yeah.

So the man leads her uphill with the knife at her back.

She tries on multiple occasions to bargain with him, saying that her parents will pay this ransom that he said he's after and that they won't press charges.

She gets to a point where she tells him that if his plan is to rape and kill her, he should just do it here, right there, because she wants her parents to be able to find her body.

I know.

Elizabeth says that he then smiles, which is a look that chills her to the bone.

And he says, quote, I'm not going to rape and kill you yet, end quote.

I think most of us have seen pictures of this man, and it is like so sinister to think of it this way, where he's like truly looks like a boogeyman.

He's like confusing looking and very like almost like ancient looking and creepy.

Yeah, like someone that if you saw on the street, you would avoid as a woman.

As a woman alone on the street, you would not.

be comfortable walking past this person.

So that guy smiling in the woods of like and saying that sentence is like, man,

horrifying.

it is so at daybreak as they're still walking Elizabeth gets a better look at her captor and she realizes that she recognizes him he's a man who did yard work at her family's house for one day months earlier he had introduced himself as Emmanuel and when she had met him he had been clean-shaven and now he has a long scraggly beard but she can tell it's definitely him The family had first met Emmanuel on a street corner in downtown Salt Lake City in the fall of 2001, about eight months prior.

The kids and Lois, the mom, had been back to school shopping and they saw him panhandling and they are a charitable family.

So the boys, the smart boys, asked their mom if there was any work that they could give him around the house.

And she gives him a $5 bill and says that, you know, there is work for you to do around the house for money, if you can come.

Elizabeth later writes, quote, what I didn't know but would later learn was that he had been watching me very carefully as we walked toward him.

He had taken the opportunity to study me further as my mom searched through her purse.

He remembered everything about me, the clothes I was wearing, my blonde hair, the way I looked up at my mother, the color of my eyes.

And though he was careful not to show it, he decided that moment that I was the one, like he was.

already looking to prey on someone.

When the smart family does wind up hiring Emmanuel to rake leaves and repair the roof at their house, he learns where she lives that way.

He spends the next couple of months devising his plan to kidnap Elizabeth.

Emmanuel's actual name is Brian David Mitchell.

And at this point, he's about 49 years old.

Elizabeth makes it clear in her book that everything she's learned about him has been against her will.

So we won't talk too much about him, but she briefly outlines how he has a history of substance abuse.

And as a teenager, he had been charged for exposing himself to a younger child.

He had been married three times and had 13 children and stepchildren.

Jesus.

And among those children were other charges of abuse.

So this is just a bad, bad man.

Back to that morning when they get to the top of the mountain, they walk into a densely wooded area and then Elizabeth sees a campsite.

Mitchell calls out a name.

It's Hepzibah.

Then Elizabeth hears a woman's voice yelling his name, Emmanuel, in return.

And then an eerie-looking woman steps out of the tent.

I always think of the princess bride

when, yeah, the witch.

Yeah.

she has messy stringy long gray hair and she's wearing a set of white robes like how chilling for out in the world to see this is like a grim's fairy tale gone totally wrong and then yeah and then also seeing a woman there's like a part of you where it's like oh maybe i'm saved because it's not just this creepy man with yeah but right immediately realizing that's not the case she's like crawling out of a well basically of just like this is as scary as it can be totally this woman is wanda barzee she's in her late 50s and she's mitchell's third wife barzie had also been previously married has six children but she relinquished her parental rights when she met and married mitchell so as mitchell and elizabeth enter the campsite barzee envelops elizabeth in a hug that feels more menacing than comforting

So one thing that neither Elizabeth nor her captors realize is that Elizabeth's little sister, nine-year-old Mary Catherine, had actually woken up and and seen almost the whole kidnapping.

I didn't know that.

Yeah.

That's what I'm telling you.

I know.

Elizabeth and Mary Catherine are very close.

Every night, Elizabeth reads out loud from a chapter book to her little sister.

On the night of the kidnapping, they had been in the middle of Ella Enchanted.

Right after Elizabeth is taken out of her room, she attempts to go wake up her parents, but she gets freaked out thinking that Elizabeth and her captor are still there.

So she runs back to her room and hides under the covers and stays there for about two hours until she can get the courage to go wake up her parents.

The fact that she could go and do it at all is unbelievable.

That is the scariest thing.

A man with a fucking knife in your room.

Yeah.

Takes your sister.

The idea that she wasn't just stuck there until the morning.

She's incredible.

When she gets the nerve to wake her parents and tells them Elizabeth has been taken, the three of them go downstairs together.

And when Lois turns on the lights, she immediately sees an open open kitchen window and that the screen at the window had been sliced open and she starts screaming.

Unfortunately the situation unfolds similarly to in the John Benet Ramsey case and it's mistakes that are immediately made.

Ed calls the police but he also calls lots of friends and family members obviously to come help look for his daughter Elizabeth.

But the inexperienced graveyard shift police officers that first show up don't lock down the house and pretty quickly every last inch of it has been completely trampled.

Now, I could totally be wrong.

I have no idea.

It seems to me you want the experienced people on the night shift.

It's nighttime shit.

Can we have the experienced people on the all shifts?

Good point.

But I guess the answer is no.

So if we had to split it, can't the inexperienced people do stuff during the day?

Yeah.

Bad things happen at night.

That's when the evils come out.

I don't know.

But I hear you.

Someone's like, and the actual fact of that is at 4 o'clock.

Yeah.

It's all bad.

It's all bad.

By the time an experienced detective gets there at 6 a.m., he says that Elizabeth's room and the rest of the house is, quote, contaminated beyond all hope.

So all members of the Smart family are questioned individually by police, of course, and Mary Catherine recounts what she saw.

She says she believes she heard Elizabeth's captor say the word ransom, which she's right.

He did say, although he was lying.

Ed Smart's brother, the dad's brother, works for the Deseret News, which is one of the main newspapers in Utah.

So later that day, the Smarts appear before the media, and Ed's brother gets Elizabeth's photo out and storied out to all the national news outlets.

And it's a huge story immediately on cable news by that evening.

You know, we have to say it's a beautiful

blonde girl who goes missing from a religious family.

In the mid-2000s.

Yes, right.

Right.

2002.

Meanwhile, we're back at this campsite.

And the woman Elizabeth knows now as Hetzebah washes Elizabeth's feet, almost like a ritual thing, and then forces Elizabeth to change out of her red pajamas into a set of white robes similar to what she's wearing.

And this, it's so hard to read her account of this, but it's incredible that she was able to express herself.

Elizabeth is left alone in the tent and Emmanuel comes back in.

He's now wearing a similar set of robes and he performs what he tells Elizabeth is a marriage ceremony and afterwards he rapes her just immediately after kidnapping her.

Right.

That's the only reason he did it.

I mean like the idea that he has roped in some woman to somehow ritualize that is disgusting.

I'm thinking about God somehow.

Yes.

Where it's like the most evil fucking thing.

Jesus is the one who washed people's feet.

You can get up because no one's buying that from you, ma'am.

Exactly.

So gross.

And so Elizabeth is a member of the LDS church, of course, and writes about how her faith helped her survive her terrible ordeal.

But in the years since her kidnapping, she's also become a vocal critic of the purity culture in which she was raised.

It's really interesting because she had grown up being told that her worth was tied to her virginity.

It was taken away from her forcefully.

And then she immediately felt worthless.

And she doesn't think that that's fair.

After she was raped, she says that she struggled with a sense of worthlessness that immediately followed, and it made her almost reluctant to seek help during different points in her captivity.

Like it, she didn't feel worth saving anymore.

Yeah.

She says she thought, quote, why would it even be worth screaming out?

Why would it even make a difference if you are rescued?

Your life still has no value, end quote.

It's weird that that's the message coming from a religion.

Yeah.

It just is so, it it just isn't, because who does that actually affect?

They're not saying that the man has no value.

It's the woman always.

Totally.

On many occasions, Elizabeth has criticized the abstinence-only education she was given, which when she was experiencing the worst suffering of her life, made her think of herself as, quote, a chewed-up piece of gum.

So she's fighting against that, which is incredible.

That's great.

So Mitchell puts a wire cable around Elizabeth's ankle, and he then attaches that to a tree.

So there's no opportunity for her to try to run away.

Sorry, really quick, but that just that linking all of that together, this is why I'm so excited that she wrote an autobiography because that idea of I never thought about that at the purity culture, because there was the time where before she was actually found, where they took film of her walking down the street with them, it's like, why would she do this?

And it's like, instead of actually finding out why, it was just people wanting to scream like, well, she must have wanted to be with her or something, instead of like track it to why she would be feeling that.

I mean, she was already indoctrinated in this religious practice

ideology and believed this thing about herself.

The answer's right there.

Yeah.

And the answer is no one knows how they'll react in a situation that's so traumatic.

So shut the fuck up.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'm just saying, shut the fuck up.

So no more questions.

So Karen, okay.

So at the bottom of the mountain, a massive search effort mobilizes to look for Elizabeth.

Around 10,000 volunteers show up to help.

It's a huge story.

On the third day of Elizabeth's disappearance, after not sleeping, Ed, her father, suffers a breakdown and is briefly hospitalized, but the search efforts continue.

On that same day, while at the campsite, Elizabeth actually hears her name called out by searchers.

Oh, no.

She is elated, thinking she's going to be rescued, but she's sitting right in between Mitchell and Barzie at the campsite.

Mitchell picks up a knife and says he'll kill her if she makes any noise.

And to Elizabeth's horror, the voices fade and she doesn't ever hear anyone searching for her again.

Except she does hear helicopters flying right above the campsite, which is like it's shaking the tent.

It's so close.

But it's hidden by a dense crop.

Cop.

Overgrowth?

Of trees.

Thank you.

What did they try to say?

Crop.

A crop, yeah.

No.

Cops.

What is it?

I've been reading too many fucking Scottish books lately.

Cops.

Crops.

Cops, Cops the TV show?

No.

One of my favorites.

A cops of trees.

Yes.

Thank you.

I've literally been reading Irish and Scottish books lately.

How do you spell cops?

C-O-R-P-S, right?

C-O-P-S-E.

That's it.

Cops.

I literally have never heard that word before.

Okay.

Amazing.

I think I only read it, which is why I didn't know how to.

That's what happens to readers.

Okay.

So over the coming weeks, the Smart Family, they come under scrutiny at first, but soon the focus falls on a man who did some construction work around the Smart house also.

But it's a different man completely.

This man had a criminal history and possibly had stolen from the Smarts while working on their house.

Like he's a good-looking suspect for this crime.

He's also accused of breaking and entering and stealing in other homes around the neighborhood.

But Mary Catherine, Elizabeth's little sister, tells her parents she is positive that he is not the person she saw in her room the night of Elizabeth's disappearance.

But of course, she's nine and they're like, uh-huh, shut the fuck up.

You know what I mean?

I want Mary Catherine's autobiography now.

Seriously.

I mean, a nine-year-old that has to like fight for her sister.

Wait, you hear what she does.

I'm definitely crying during this season.

Then, about six weeks after Elizabeth's kidnapping, while this other dude is in custody being questioned, Mitchell tells Elizabeth that he's going to kidnap Elizabeth's cousin.

Elizabeth had casually brought up her cousin in a previous conversation, which is how Mitchell had come up with the idea.

So Elizabeth's cousin, who is around the same age as Elizabeth, named Olivia, 50 days after Elizabeth's abduction, the Wright family, basically, they awakened to someone trying to climb through a window in their house, had cut the screen just like at Elizabeth's house.

But Elizabeth's cousin, Olivia, had actually been sleeping on the floor of her parents' bedroom at the time because everyone is so freaked out.

Oh, my God.

However, her sister would have been asleep in the bedroom if...

Mitchell had made it in, but he didn't.

They woke up and chased him off.

So the guy that they think did it is in custody when that happens.

Right.

So like, maybe it's not him.

No, police are not convinced at the time that they have the wrong guy.

But at the same time, you can't be like,

that's great that they kept, you know what I mean?

Like, it could have been a copycat.

We're talking shit because now we know that it's

him.

But he's still a suspect for a reason.

Right.

And I mean, it's that idea of like, if you have a person that's checking seven of the ten boxes,

you can't just be like, yeah, that's right.

Something else happened similar.

Right.

We would have been talking shit on that if that was the case.

Right.

So.

But the Smart family, they totally believe it means the kidnapper is still at large.

And since he knew about Olivia, the cousin, like specifically, that might mean that Elizabeth is still alive.

Got it.

Because she talked about her.

Which just gives some hope.

Yeah.

So back at the campsite, Elizabeth is sexually abused nearly every day.

Mitchell calls Elizabeth by a different name.

Shir Jeshub is her name, some biblical.

It's an obscure Old Testament reference.

He forces her to drink alcohol, which is against her religion.

He also makes her talk in a biblical way, lots of these and thou's and cops of trees.

Cops of trees.

Will you please say cops of trees instead of forest?

She's just like, dude.

Elizabeth spends a total of six weeks tied to that tree at the campsite before Mitchell and Barzie decide to start making regular trips down into Salt Lake City as a group.

So she just has to, for almost two months, just camp with these psychos and stay alive.

Yeah, and get sexually assaulted and raped on the daily.

That's such a long time.

It's horrible.

Like this is just so brazen.

They take her with them.

They all wear their white robes, but Barzie and Elizabeth cover their hair and faces with white veils so only their eyes can be seen.

They look like some kind of religious fundamentalists, fundamentalists, which stands out even in Salt Lake City where everyone is.

And Elizabeth says that people would just quickly look away uncomfortably whenever they passed.

On one occasion, they're at a grocery store and the cashier invites them to a house party and they go.

It's a house that regularly hosts events for the Salt Lake City counterculture scene, which is like kind of punk, you know.

And there's usually a performance art element to these events.

So they see these people who obviously have these certain beliefs and like, hey, come to, like, come to our party.

These guys would be cool to talk to this guy because the women don't speak.

So they invite him and there are photographs of them at the party, like you said.

And like hindsight, of course, you look at the photo.

It's like a close-up and it's so clearly her

to us.

And I mean, it's just so heartbreaking and hard to look at.

And you can't help but be like, if I were there, I would have done this and that, but you wouldn't have.

No.

You know, and like, there's a picture of him talking to a girl.

She's like, I'll tatted up.

She looks looks like a mardarino.

She looks very cool.

She's probably like, has her sensors up.

And I'm sure she's just like, I should have known.

Cause they do later talk about feeling guilty that they didn't figure it out.

Of course.

But it's like.

First of all, 2002 is a time of great toxicity in our culture in general.

And so that idea of like, I have an inkling of something and I'm worried about it, but everyone stayed quiet with everything because there was no kind of, here's a pattern if you call the cops or if you're going to try to draw attention to something as a woman by yourself, here's how it's going to go.

Everyone's going to say you're crazy and weird and like not go with you.

And I think so many women had experienced that, whereas 2025, girls, you literally have to like look up and give somebody a look and people will be like, hey, girl, what's up?

You're coming with us.

The hand gestures down.

It's changed profoundly.

Whereas before it was like, you don't want to step out of line.

Totally.

Even at like a punk party.

Totally.

And on this occasion at the party, 14-year-old Elizabeth just is too stunned and scared by all the people to say anything.

Again, she had been two months of extreme trauma.

She's just scared.

However, Mitchell is so disruptive and obnoxious that they, even they can't stand him and they kick him out of the party.

They're like, we like stuff like that here and we hate you.

Yeah, like you're the worst person.

Get the fuck out.

Yep.

On another occasion, okay.

And so this is the thing, too, because those party attendees say they feel haunted by the fact that they didn't realize that it was Elizabeth.

But on another occasion in August of 2002, two months after Elizabeth's kidnapping, the group goes to the Salt Lake City Public Library to research places they can spend the winter.

And when they're there, a library patron actually looks closely at Elizabeth in her veil.

And that person recognizes her from just her eyes in the slit of her veil because it's a huge story.

It's one of their own who's gone missing.

Immediately, he thinks it's her.

That person calls the police.

That person's clearly a hero.

The person tells them it's Elizabeth Smart at his library and a homicide detective comes.

Long story short, he lets them go.

He questions them.

He claims, Mitchell claims that Elizabeth is his daughter and that she keeps her face covered for religious reasons, so you can't ask her to show her face.

And while this is happening, Elizabeth is standing there and she's worried that if she speaks out, the detective might not believe her and she'll be punished or killed because of it.

Yes.

She's been brutalized ritualistically.

She's not in a place where she can be like, here's what, I'm going to stand up and be strong.

It's like, no, she needs that cop.

That's that kind of thing.

And it's like, this isn't based on anything except for in a situation like that, letting

him dictate terms fucks you every time.

Right.

Because he's absolutely going to do the thing that covers his ass.

Right.

So if it's like, no, sorry, you simply can't do that for our religious reasons.

It's like, grab that female librarian, go into that room and make her take

her take this off.

Like, do the thing that's most respectful, but at the same time, get your answer.

That's how the JC Duggard case was solved is because someone wouldn't mind their own business.

Yep.

It's the exact same thing.

And you know, Adrian, my sister's friend, Adrienne's mother-in-law.

That's right.

She didn't mind her own business as a parole officer who went and checked there and said, bad stuff is happening there.

You need to go raid it.

And they wouldn't listen to her.

Exactly.

Pushpa Culla Singham, you're a queen.

You're the best.

She's the one that used to say to Nora when Nora, when she was little, said when she grew up, she wanted to be a cheerleader.

And Pushpa would go, Don't be a cheerleader, be a doctor.

I've told you that story before.

And now we're back to the Elizabeth Smart case.

So somehow Mitchell is able to walk free after this interaction.

This happening also like doubled down to her that you're stuck here.

You're lost.

Do not say anything.

You know what I mean?

It like just reinforced all of that for her.

So right around the same time, that prime suspect who Mary Catherine had said wasn't the guy dies of an aneurysm.

Is that suspicious?

Because so many investigators were convinced that this man had kidnapped and killed Elizabeth.

It deflates a lot of people's hope that Elizabeth will ever be found.

Elizabeth's family, who believe her kidnapper wasn't that guy and is still at large, worry the police will quit looking.

By September of 2002, Mitchell, Barzi, and Elizabeth, they've relocated to San Diego and they're camping at a new site in a wetland outside the city.

Elizabeth nicknames this area the fire swamp because it looks exactly like the fire swamp from the movie The Princess Bride.

Yeah.

She's just a kid.

Yeah.

All right, so back to Mary Catherine.

It's been four months and she's just constantly going over in her head what happened, what she saw and heard the night of her big sister's disappearance.

In October of 2002,

Ed Smart is tucking his now 10-year-old daughter, Mary Catherine, into bed.

And she says, I think I know whose voice I heard that night.

It just comes to her.

She says she thinks it's Emmanuel, the unhoused man they had hired for yard work a year earlier.

She just remembers suddenly.

Some little piece in her brain clicks together and she remembers the exact correct person.

How, like, that's just extraordinary.

Yeah.

Right.

The whole family remembers him, and they remember meeting him in downtown Salt Lake.

They remember the one day he came to work on their roof in late 2001.

They remember that he talked a lot about his ministry work, like how he said he liked to preach at homeless shelters.

And they remember that he was supposed to come back the next day to finish the job, but he never did.

They tell police, the police are skeptical about this lead.

There's a lot of back and forth between the police and the smart family about whether a sketch of Emmanuel should even be released.

This back and forth lasts into the beginning of 2003.

I know.

This poor family.

Some authorities in the Salt Lake City police are just completely convinced that this earlier now dead suspect was the one who kidnapped and killed Elizabeth.

And they don't believe that 10-year-old Mary Catherine could possibly know what she's talking about.

But thankfully, others believe that there could be merit to releasing a sketch of Emmanuel.

However, they also think that doing so, if it is him, could endanger her life if she is actually still alive.

Meanwhile, back in California, Mitchell has been disappearing from the campsite for days on end, leaving both Elizabeth and Barzie to come close to dying of dehydration and starvation.

Mitchell's also talking about moving again, this time to like a big city like New York or Boston to get lost there.

Elizabeth thinks that if this happens, she knows she'll never be found.

She decides to try to manipulate him.

She knows him so well at this point.

And she thinks her best chance of survival is to go back to Utah where people will recognize her.

You know,

she plays it perfectly.

She tells Mitchell that she knows God couldn't possibly speak to her, but she feels strongly it's God's will that the group go back to Utah.

She just totally manipulates him into it becoming his idea and God told him to go back to Utah.

So they return there.

Smart.

Yeah.

Okay.

So all this debate with the police about releasing the sketch of a man they know as Emmanuel goes back and forth for months.

Finally, in February of 2003, the smart family essentially goes rogue.

They're like, we're not doing this anymore.

This is our daughter's life.

Good.

Without involvement from law enforcement, they host a press conference releasing the sketch to the media.

Which is so bold, but it's like there are no other leads.

And for the people who are saying, hey, we knew who did it.

Yeah.

Like not based on fact or anything, just this is better for us.

Right.

And now that guy's dead.

So this is over.

Yeah.

Well, then if it's over for you, we get to go rogue.

And our daughter is literally saying that's who it was.

We believe her.

You know, it's just that has to be the frustration of having a name.

And no one doing anything about it.

I mean, I can't even imagine.

So insane, but also so great that I'm sure as kind of LDS members, rule followers, community-based, like be respectful,

you know, authority, whatever.

It's like, well, we did that for one year with you.

Where has it gotten us?

So they release the sketch to the media.

And then John Walsh,

none other than John Walsh, discusses what's going on on Larry King, which was a huge show at the time.

And on John Walsh's own show, America's Most Wanted.

So it gets picked up.

John Walsh had been in touch with the Smart family since the beginning of the disappearance.

He offers support because he's been through a similar situation, having had his son, Adam Walsh, as we all remember, kidnapped and murdered.

I covered the Adam Walsh case in episode 242, if you want to listen to that.

So it gets out.

And immediately after this, relatives of both Mitchell and Barzee come forward and are like, that's who that is.

They reveal their identities immediately.

They know who it is.

The FBI figures out that Mitchell has been arrested for shoplifting while in California.

So they know the group has traveled there.

And those relatives give photos of both Mitchell and Barzee in their white robes, like exactly how they look, to the press.

And Barzee's children go on the news specifically to talk about how they believe both of them could be capable of kidnapping Elizabeth.

They're like totally on the side of finding Elizabeth.

Wow.

Yeah.

Amazing.

Yeah.

On March 12, 2003, two separate couples in Sandy, Utah, about 30 minutes north of Salt Lake, call either the police or the America's Most Most Wanted hotline to report sightings of Mitchell and Barzie and a young girl in disguise who they now think is Elizabeth.

The group's been walking along the side of the road.

They're no longer wearing their robes, possibly because those photos have been circulated.

Now they're wearing normal clothes, but Elizabeth is wearing a gray wig, sunglasses, and a shirt tied around her head, like a handkerchief, sort of.

So police find them and stop them, this group of people.

Mitchell tries to prevent them to talking to Elizabeth by themselves, but the officers are now like, we know who this is.

Like they're pretty certain.

They finally separate each of them.

The officer speaking to Elizabeth tries to get her to say who she is for like 45 minutes.

She denies being Elizabeth Smart.

I remember that.

How traumatized she is.

Yes.

Yeah.

From the initial story breaking,

and they said it, it felt like it was messaged in the media like,

she did this.

She believed that she wanted to be there, maybe.

Just that tone was so so insane.

Yeah.

He's still in earshot, and she's afraid that he'll hear her.

Elizabeth later says,

Of course I wanted to be rescued, but I had spent the past nine months being very abused.

At that point, I still felt very threatened.

My captors were still right there.

Yeah.

End quote.

Finally, the officer interviewing Elizabeth says that he'd like to give her one more chance to say who she is.

He asks, Are you Elizabeth Smart?

She is still afraid of Mitchell hearing.

And so she answers with that quasi-biblical language saying, Thou sayest.

And the officer takes that as a yes.

I mean, I hope that the process has changed since that time.

We're like, what's your name?

What's your name?

Separate rooms.

Put them in a car if you think this is who these people are.

Give the victim a victim's advocate instead of just saying, who are you?

Or, you know.

Right.

Or just get the people they're with away from them in a secure way.

Like make it clear that we're like not going to, if you tell us, you'll be over here.

Yeah, like what's gonna be over there?

Because you'll be safe.

Yes.

Totally.

Elizabeth's family is of course overjoyed to have her back.

And it seems like the entire nation is just like so relieved.

Like it just doesn't happen that she comes back alive, that anyone comes back alive after being kidnapped.

Yeah.

So it's just this big celebration that it finally happens.

John Walsh says, quote, we finally got one back.

End quote.

I know.

And even after all she's been through, Elizabeth recovers.

On the day after she gets home, her family throws her a 15th birthday party to make up for the one she missed.

I know she doesn't go.

She stays in her room, understandably, like just totally overwhelmed.

But she does send out a poster thanking everyone for coming.

I'm sure it's just like too much.

And then she goes on to go to high school.

She goes to college.

She has friends.

She goes on dates.

She goes to dances.

And generally, she enjoys her life.

She goes on her LDS mission trip.

She gets a prime assignment in Paris as she deserves.

I know, like, don't, just please let it be easy for her.

The elders were like, guess where she is going to go?

Yeah.

And there she meets the man who will ultimately become her husband.

On our trip.

Yeah.

Wanda Barzi pleads guilty to kidnapping in 2009.

And I mean, these people in court were just disruptive.

And it was just the photos that kept coming out on the news were just so disturbing.

She's sentenced to 15 years in prison.

And she's since been released.

But just last month, she was rearrested for entering a public park in Salt Lake City, which she's not allowed to do as a registered sex offender.

Oh, wow.

Though Barzi issued a teary apology to Elizabeth at her trial during this most recent arrest, she said she was commanded by God to enter the park.

And so Elizabeth has publicly talked about how troubling it is that Barzi is still justifying her actions in this way.

It's not an apology when you are not taking accountability for what you did.

There's no apology there.

And you're kind of back to your old thinking, right?

Like the Lord.

But also,

yeah.

I know.

Not long enough.

Well, just, I think the one thing I was going to say that's in the positive, it seems like the authorities in Salt Lake City are tracking Wanda Barce's actions.

So the second she steps into a public park, she's arrested, where it's like, I don't know, you don't usually get that.

kind of response normally where it feels like they're like, do not let them rest.

Yeah.

Keep an eye.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's good.

Maybe.

Mitchell's case doesn't go to trial for about eight years due to numerous delays and competency hearings.

He puts on a big show in court.

He sings.

He calls out to Jesus and spins and just like tries to be, generally tries to be ruled mentally incompetent to stand trial.

It doesn't work.

In 2011, he's finally found guilty of interstate kidnapping and unlawful transportation of a minor.

He's sentenced to life in prison.

Many members of the Smart family are still deeply connected to their LDS church, but Elizabeth is actually not the only member of her family who has talked about being harmed by strict interpretations of church ideologies, as we talked about the virginity.

aspect.

In 2019, Ed Smart, Elizabeth's dad, publicly comes out as gay and he and Lois separate.

This is of course painful for the family, but Elizabeth gives a statement to the press expressing her unwavering love and support for both her parents.

Ed now does a lot of work with the LGBTQ youth in Utah and challenges the the idea, which is still common in the church, that being gay is something a person can change.

Meanwhile, Elizabeth Smart has become this incredible victims advocate.

She is so admirable.

I mean, I can't say enough good things.

She's advocated for the passage of several laws that streamline investigations into missing children.

She and her family also started the Elizabeth Smart Foundation, which advocates for victims of sexual assault and connects them with resources.

I checked out the website, it's ElizabethSmartFoundation.org, and there's a lot of resources there.

Check that out.

Elizabeth continues to advocate against that idea or even just teaching children that their worth is connected to their perceived virginity.

And she speaks all over the world and, you know, she's incredible.

She now dedicates herself to teaching the children: quote, you'll always have value and nothing can change that.

And that is the story of the kidnapping and survival of Elizabeth Smart.

And thriving of Elizabeth.

I love that that is now the current story about her.

Yeah.

And if she gets to tell it, she gets to say, this is what happened to me.

This is what my life is like now.

Like, there's nothing better than that.

No, totally.

But also, like, it's incredible.

If you can't do that, if you were a survivor and you can't yet, that's okay too.

There's so many ways to be.

Completely.

It's been 20 years.

So it's like, that's a person who took their time in doing that, built her life back up

by her own standards.

It's really cool and really impressive that was great yeah thank you all right so episode once again picked a story they gave us everything

hell yeah

this is danielle fischel from pod meets world what do you think of when you hear amazon prime delivery trucks outside your home your favorite streaming shows of course but there's so much more whatever you love that's what prime is prime helps you get more out of whatever passions you're into and it helps you discover new ones.

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All right, it's another batch of honking hoorays presented by Hyundai.

That's right.

You go first?

You want me to?

Yeah.

Okay, this first one says, hashtag hooray.

My partner just graduated with his PhD in mechanical engineering, joining the ranks of less than 1% of black men to earn this degree.

Wow.

A whole lot of work went into it.

And then there's that emoji of exhaling.

Oh, yeah, thank you.

But I'm thankful to have been along for the ride.

Happy grad season.

That's right.

It's dad's in grad season

at Phoenix Harris.

Congratulations.

That's amazing.

Mechanical engineering.

You know, small feet.

Come on.

Yeah, that's great.

Hooray.

Right.

Okay, this is from our email.

Hi, MFM.

I just finished listening to the hoorays from Manny and Rachel, the public school librarian and teachers union VP, and I just wanted to write in to back them up.

I am a public school psychologist, so my main role is assessing and determining appropriate support for kids with learning disabilities, intellectual disabilities, emotional and behavioral needs, autism, ADHD, trauma, etc.

It just fills me with hope to hear from other listeners just buckling down and doing the work in these times where the government is asking us to reduce or remove our help in the realm of diversity, equity, and inclusion, DEI, which is my world.

So my hooray is this MFM community of amazing people doing the work to be the good in this world when the world is trying to beat us down.

Hashtag resist.

Love you, Aaron.

Aaron.

That was epic.

Erin, great job.

Yeah.

And hooray to you.

That's right.

Keep up the good work.

Okay.

The subject line of this email is an unemployed hooray.

I'm currently listening to episode 473 and developing film from a solo backpacking trip through the Rockies in my kitchen sink.

Wow.

Solo in the Rockies.

Solo, Rockies, kitchen sink.

I'd make it four hours and then I would dig a hole.

I was recently fired from a job which ironically I had drafted a letter of resignation for one week prior.

I guess the feeling was mutual.

Now as I intermittently agitate my developing tank in and out of the warm bath, I'm struck with an amusing thought.

You know what that means, right?

Because your sister's a photographer.

I'm struck with an amusing thought.

For years, I psyched myself out, pursuing my real dream of becoming an adventure photographer, as if the last five years of sustaining a steady diet of misery at a job I hated was so much easier.

You can't do it.

As I reflect on that trip and the 16 miles I marched up and down a mountain with a 35-pound pack, I can't help but think what a cakewalk that was in comparison.

That's amazing.

So true.

So maybe now, as week by week, I'm filled with the palpable joy you two have created by doing what you love.

Aw, thanks.

I can try joy this time too.

Wow.

Hooray for the universe constantly forcing me to choose courage.

Kay.

What's that from me?

Kay.

Kay.

And now I get to read hoorays from A.

Hooray.

In front of a lot of people.

That's incredible.

Good work, Kay.

That's amazing.

Okay.

This is email.

Hooray slash what am i even doing i'm happily spraying out my baby's cloth diapers because after seven years of planning changing life habits and saving up my wife and i were finally financially stable and mentally question mark stable enough to have our first baby so hooray for stability and sperm donors hey much love gina she her gina

All the hoorays are covered in that one.

I know.

That's incredible.

I thought they were, I thought it was going to be more like a, I'm going to be grateful for spraying out my child's cloth diaper instead of fully propulsed by it.

No.

Yes.

Like, I should say hooray to this because this is what I wanted.

Great one.

Okay, this one, it says, hooray.

This is an email.

It says, teen leadership is the future.

Are you ready for this?

I am a teen.

Let me hear it.

I'm a teen inside.

I got to take 17 students from seventh graders to seniors to a statewide leadership conference.

It was two days filled with workshops by teens about everything from fundraising to teamwork.

My favorites were rip up your cool card and then in parentheses it says to be cringe is to be free.

Oh, thank god.

Lucky for us.

And the token emo kid.

The token emo kid in like title case.

Oh my god, I love that.

And then in parentheses it says making activities that are fun and safe for everyone.

I was completely filled with joy and peace to see hundreds of teenagers who are kind, intelligent, and committed to making the world a better place.

I love love being a teacher and seriously, the kids are all right.

Wow.

That was from Teddy.

Oh my God.

A report from Teddy that the kids are okay.

True, those teenagers.

Help us, please, teenagers.

Okay, my hooray is that on April 24th, I got to celebrate one year since my craniotomy.

What?

At 23, I unexpectedly had a grand mall seizure after experiencing left-sided migraines that grew more frequent.

This seizure led to them finding a grade 2 arteriovenous malformation in my brain.

AVMs AVMs are usually not discovered until they rupture or cause a stroke.

I am a hypochondriac who always swore I was going to have a stroke every time I got a migraine.

Jokes on everyone because I was partially corrected.

Yeah, you were.

You were right.

You're not over-dramatic.

No.

I am so lucky that I am alive and healthy and suffering no lasting effects from my seizure, surgery, or AVM.

If you are experiencing migraines or other neurological issues, please point at me.

You're my neurological issue.

If you were

please reach out to a medical professional, it may save your life.

I want to shout out the University Hospital main campus Neuro ICU nurses.

They are my sweet baby angels and do not get enough credit.

Stay sexy and get your noggins checked.

Paige P.

Wow, congratulations on surviving a neurocranial.

Yeah.

That's serious.

Good job.

That's it.

Yes, we did it.

All right.

Thank you guys for tuning in.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you to Hyundai for presenting these honking hoorays.

And stay sexy.

And don't get murdered.

Goodbye.

Elvis, do you want a cookie?

This has been an Exactly Right production.

Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

This episode was mixed by Liana Scolachi.

Our researchers are Maren McGlashen and Allie Elkin.

Email your hometowns to myfavorite murder at gmail.com.

Follow the show on Instagram at myfavorite murder.

Listen to MyFavorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page.

While you're there, please like and subscribe.

Goodbye.

Kevin and Rachel and Peanut Minem's and an eight-hour road trip.

And Rachel's new favorite audiobook, The Cerulean Empress, Scoundrel's Inferno.

And Florian, the reckless yet charming scoundrel from said audiobook.

And his pecs glistened in the moonlight.

And Kevin, feeling weird because of all the talk about pecs.

And Rachel handing him peanut M ⁇ Ms to keep him quiet.

Uh, Kevin, I can't hear.

Yellow, we're keeping it PG-13.

M ⁇ Ms, it's more fun together.

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Goodbye.

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