Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 46: Skippers Unite!

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Goodbye.

Hello

and welcome to Rewind with Karen in Georgia.

That's right.

Every Wednesday we recap our old episodes with all new commentary, updates, and insights.

And today we're recapping episode 46, which we named, don't fast forward, we named Skippers Unite.

Skippers Unite in these trying times, at least we can come together on one issue, and that's skippers needing to shut up this episode came out on december 8th 2016.

and in honor of our skippers let's get right into it here's the intro of episode 46.

go

say hi hi how are you hi go

podcasting podcasting go they're doing podcasting what if this was a podcast about podcasting that could be a thing that would be the end of us what if this was a podcast about podcasts to talk about podcasting what if this was a podcast about how to start a podcast?

And then we started listening to it and learned and we're soon able to start a podcast correctly.

That would be, I think that would be detrimental to our

brand.

To our brands.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Detrimental to our personalities.

Detrimental to

our riff styles.

Yeah.

Well, this is all, this is all scripted, this part.

Isn't that weird how much we play it natural when actually we're reading every word we're saying right now off of large teleprompters?

Georgia, laugh out loud.

Oh, shit.

Karen, laugh even louder and clap your hands.

Welcome.

Hey.

Did you say bye?

Sigh.

Welcome to my favorite murder.

Welcome to my favorite murder, the podcast that asks the question, why do people listen to this?

And doesn't answer it and then talks about other stuff.

Yep.

Yeah.

our blessed, blessed Stephen Ray Morris

brought me a gift today that,

you know, people who know how to give a gift.

Yeah.

And it really means a lot because, like, my own mother, for years at Christmas, I would open things and be like, you clearly wanted someone else as a child.

I walked in tonight and there was a Diet Coke tall boy waiting for me on George's coffee table.

He doesn't even, he puts it in Karen's spot.

Like, he doesn't even say like, hey, Karen, like, hand it to her when he gets it's like and he did it when i like i came out and i was like oh like it's just so sweet and so subtle and it's like in your spot thanks all those things steven and then on top of it the things i want the most which are diet coke and quantity stephen's your new mommy steve's my mommy and also oh i called him steve and also

also when i was a young alcoholic really ready to take on the world through uh slurry speech and secrets.

It's the best way, man.

Secrets no one wanted to hear.

I still use any.

I would drink Budweiser tall boys from the corner store.

They were cheap and they would get you like buzzed enough so that you could still use money and not like lose your

perfect buzz that you should have just ridden, but instead you added to it.

Always.

You know what I mean?

Yes.

Two glasses of champagne.

Here I am.

Fucking rock me like, you know, and then like,

yeah.

Then I'm like, well, one more thing.

Yes.

And then I'm like, oh, yes.

Stupid.

And then I go, two more.

Now let's switch to Jamesons.

Now let's fight the doorman.

That's why I had to stop drinking.

It would always go down this path where I was like, wait, don't do that.

Now it's on to, I thought you were like, and now it's on to gin.

Nope.

Now I'm fighting the doorman.

Now Duke's up.

Now it's like, I'll kick you in the shin and then tell you a secret.

Oh, yeah.

I'm plucky.

I'm I'm plucky, Karen.

I'm angry about things that don't make sense.

I've had every advantage in life and I'm still mad.

I want it all.

So thank you, Steve.

Thank you, Steve.

Thanks for bringing back memories.

Means the world.

I'm glad.

And thank you all for listening to my favorite murder.

That's Karen, by the way.

And that's Georgia.

Georgia's still an alcoholic.

Karen's an ex-alcoholic.

It's all the same.

No, I'm still

an alcoholic.

You always are.

Yes.

But you're not an alcoholic, or you would have fucked everything up by now.

I'm a practicing.

I went to a new doctor today and I was like, natural, natural path.

I can't say it.

Natural path.

A homeopath?

No,

natural path.

A natural path.

And I was like, how do I explain to her, like, what's wrong with me?

Because there's a lot wrong with me.

And I was like, oh, I know.

And

I'm a very highly functioning mess.

I'm like, oh, that's it.

That's it.

Yes.

Yeah.

Like, I, did she get it?

Yes.

She was great.

She got me.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Who can't say that, though?

Who would say that about themselves?

People who aren't high functioning.

Oh, that's true.

You know what I mean?

That might be me, or I'm like, I'm a mess that also can't return phone calls.

Except you're, you also clearly don't believe in yourself because you're incredibly high functioning.

Oh, that's true.

You're a fucking job and a hit fucking podcast.

No.

She became that person.

Lizzie Cooperman.

I do become Lizzie Cooperman.

Yeah.

Speaking of, hey, we're on the iTunes fucking.

I know.

I think we have to cut down Brag Corner.

It gets me scared.

I just wanted to thank everyone for listening.

You're right.

Because we wouldn't be on this if nobody listened.

That's exactly right.

That's why I wanted to thank you guys.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

Bye.

Bye.

See you later.

That was Brag Corner.

That was

Brag, but really embarrassed about it, Corner.

I have a lot of shame issues.

That's what I have to take to my nature path.

Brag shame issues.

Brag Brag shame corner.

That's just

your natural path.

I'm going to take it down a natural path to a pond.

I'm going to throw it down in the pond of shame.

Oh, it's a beautiful pond.

It's such a gorgeous, bottomless pond.

I go boating there, like sailboating there sometimes.

I really enjoy myself on the pond of shame.

I bring a,

what are you, parasol?

Yes.

Right?

Yeah, like a, like a classy lady from the 20s.

Yeah, a classy, shameful person.

That's me.

That's me all over.

What other corners do you want to talk about?

I guess.

Should we get ready to show corner?

So like the skippers don't exit this part.

Tour corner.

Tour corner.

Exciting announcement corner.

We're going to have a tour happening.

You guys, we're.

Somebody believes we're legit because they have actually planned a semi, not really nationwide tour for us

and perhaps slightly outside nature.

I mean, America, national.

We're only going to national parks.

That's what Karen's trying to say.

We're only doing shows in natural parks.

And we're trying to get disappeared out of a natural park, like those weird stories where people disappear out of natural parks.

And everyone, the only, you have to chop down a tree if you're going to come.

That's right.

We're going to basically chop down all the woods.

We're going to go find the bad people in the woods.

Oh, yeah.

And we're going to live podcast murder them.

Have you heard the number of like how many, did we already talk about this?

How many murderers are you brought that up?

What?

How many murderers or murders happen in

national parks?

And the whole thing of children disappearing in national parks.

And it's like, is it an animal or is it a human animal?

But if it's an animal, how did they get so far away?

10 miles away from the city.

Yeah, you would have seen like a clothing thing.

Yeah.

No, there's no bones or spooer.

Fuck.

I know.

We got to do a fucking national park show.

National Park Tour where we're dressed up in Park Ranger outfit.

Oh, I look good in brown.

I know.

And kind of like, I'll do a moss green thing that won't look good on me, but I'll wear a strong red lip and they'll be like, I don't know.

I like it anyway.

Tight ponytails just because they're no nonsense.

Yep.

And those pads where it looks like we're writing people tickets.

But it's like,

it's love it.

We can't get Lyme disease.

Hey, do you guys want to know about our tour?

Yeah, actually, should we talk about the thing we brought up?

No.

So we're going, I guess we're going to tour from like January to April.

Yes.

But like the most like, we don't want to travel that much tour.

Like a weekender tour.

We should call it something that we don't.

We should call it.

We don't try too hard tour.

Right.

Give us like three weeks and we'll get a great name of a tour for you.

We don't care about you.

And that's a city we're not going to.

We don't care about you.

Don't do it.

Don't

everyone's heart because then we have to go there because we're actually going to one of the cities.

I said, I don't want to go to fucking.

That's right.

All right.

Ready?

Okay.

Yes.

Do you know what I've decided?

What?

I don't know, Ryan.

I'm going to sound like a a dick.

That if we go overseas, I'm fucking flying first class.

I'm flying myself first class.

Oh, that's nice.

Because you have all those anxieties about travel.

And my therapist was like, fucking spend a little extra money.

That's right.

And it's okay.

Like, don't buy all the weird shit you buy.

So save up.

Save up.

And get one of the craziest, most expensive.

But that's very true because.

I don't know how much it is.

Is it really crazy?

It's like, it's going to be a couple thousand dollars.

Never mind.

I thought it'd be like a thousand, maybe.

It'll, it'll be pretty expensive, especially if you're going to like Europe or Australia.

But like for Australia, you have to.

I actually, my father, who is very frugal and very like no frills,

no frills, kill Gareth, he was like, you have to, his, he, my mother and he loved Australia and they would go, they went there a bunch.

And he was like, we the first time we went, we flew over coach and they came back executive class, which I think is just like the cheap man's version of first class.

It's what, it's what it used to be.

It's what normal flying used to be is business class before they smashed everybody together.

Anyhow, he basically said the man who won't spend money on anything was like, you have to buy a first class ticket if you're going.

If you're going to be in a plane for that long,

treat yourself.

It's completely worth it.

So don't feel bad.

I'm doing it.

Anyway,

what else?

Oh, I just saw the pictures on the Facebook of the DC meetup.

Did you look at it?

Did you look at the cocktails they made?

Yes.

Oh, my God.

Did you?

Now,

the cocktail that was the karen is exactly my person shut up i don't know who that person is but it was literally like scotch dramboue coffee and like it was pretty middle finger it made me so happy it was pretty legit wait let me read the menu because the menu is so good so it was called the it just said the menu is called drinks and then underneath it in parentheses it said do not drink with older people which i love and then the beer on draft was called stay out of the forest and drink local beer then the beer in the boom bottle was toxic masculinity yay And then they had the boot, the cocktails was called, I'm going to go get some juice.

In case you're new to this, these are all things that have come out of our faces.

Yeah.

So there was the Georgia, which I loved, pepper spray first, the fuck politeness, the fuck everyone, the sweet honesty, and the Karen, coffee, scotch, vodka, Jesus, rambuy, chocolate bitters.

I bet that was fucking good.

I mean, and you need one.

It's truly like, and I would have drank three.

It's really, I really identified with the Karen.

And then their jello shot of the week was called Round Shit.

Yeah.

Thank you guys.

Thank you, DC.

That's hilarious and it's very exciting.

Also,

what's that?

Why are we going to DC?

Oh, I won't for political reasons.

I was just kidding.

For a minute, I was like, oh, no, you're Karen.

Yeah, I don't have political reasons.

No, I'm not sure.

I guess he's just like booking the places he's booking.

Yeah, this might be our first kind of tour.

Yeah, I mean,

we're just doing our best unless this motherfucking implodes can you imagine

halfway through we're scratching each other's eyes out i think one of those dates is is like right around when we started is like our anniversary that'd be very cool that'd be very cool what if our anniversary shows in indianapolis and we're just like hands across america we love you we build a bridge of love again i apologize for

saying i would never go there it's too late because i'm going it's too late um yeah no we're we're gonna show up there What if, what if we're there when that there's like a true crime convention that's there?

I think he did that on purpose.

No, I think we sent him that.

Like, can we go to this?

Are you serious?

Yes.

There's a true crime convention in Indianapolis and our fucking amazing tour dude, like crying a little bit right now.

Why?

Just, I like, I like it all so much.

It's a lot.

I like it so much.

It's really a lot.

It's good times.

It's so much.

Yeah.

It's really good.

This is crazy.

Now, can I change the topic really quick?

I can tell you want to and I'll let you.

Thank you.

I'm not comfortable.

I'm not comfortable in celebration.

This is called, this is, you get one free change the topic every episode.

The

yogurt shop murders were 25 years ago yesterday.

I have the book right over there.

Are you serious?

Yeah.

Are you reading the book about it?

I haven't started because

of reasons, but because you can't read?

You don't know how to read.

The book is called, was it?

It's called Who Killed These Girls by

Beverly Lowry.

And I think it's new.

And it's funny because, oh, you know what was happening?

I was going to do that.

And I have a draft of it.

And as I was writing the draft, Emily Gordon texts me and says, have you read Who Killed These Girls?

Who Killed These Girls?

The fucking moment I was typing this shit, I lost my mind.

And then I was like, well, I don't want to steal this chick's thunder.

So I'm not going to, so I'm going to order it and read it first.

When they, I saw the picture on the Facebook page this morning, and the picture of these girls from this time

made me well up.

It's just like it's four girls who are just teenage girls.

And one was a friend who just wanted to hang out.

You know, when you go, like, you're closing.

Well, I don't want to be alone.

I'm going to go hang out with you while you close and I'll fucking fill napkin things or whatever.

And then one girl had to bring her little sister.

So her little sister was hanging out there.

If you guys don't know about the yogurt shop murders, don't look it up because I'm going to cover it one day.

But it's, it's fucking and it's heavy and it's a cold case.

It's unsolved.

But then there's a lot of people, someone was in prison for it, arrested and jailed and confessed to it.

I won't say anymore.

Okay.

Yeah, I want to borrow this when you're done.

Okay.

I just wanted to kind of cite it because it's such a long time.

And it's a cold case.

I mean, like whoever went to jail for it is not the person.

And there's such,

it's just all of us.

It's all of us.

The reason I haven't started reading it yet is because I went to therapy the other day and I was like, I'm extra depressed lately.

And she's like, well, let's think about like, what are some triggers in your life like that you do?

And I'm like, oh,

you mean constantly reading and thinking about murders and crimes and looking at fucking crime scene photos.

Like, it's not just for my job.

Yeah.

It depresses me.

So this week I was going to do a survivor story just to be like, it's okay, but I couldn't find one.

Are you kidding me?

I couldn't find a good one.

I was just like, oh.

Well, that's not your jam.

It's not my jam.

It's not what you hook into.

It doesn't interest you.

I mean, you can never go up from Mary Vince.

What's her name?

Mary Vincent.

Thank you.

It is Mary Vincent.

Yeah.

You can't go up from a fucking pregnant woman beating the shit out of a woman trying to steal her baby, which you've done in the past.

And motherfuckers, Sarah Peters.

She's so good at remembering things.

I didn't do Mary Vincent just now, though.

And Mary Vincent, who's just, I mean, so I'm not doing one of those.

I'm doing a murderer.

Well, that's what most people have tuned in for.

Also, I just want to talk about the, now I, I, I just wrote down Papini, but are you following that case?

No.

Oh, yes, you must be.

Which is a woman who was kidnapped and

they, she, they found her on Thanksgiving Day.

And it's up, it took place up in Redding, California, which is up north of Sacramento.

God, I don't, I know, I've seen the name, but I haven't read about it.

They just did a 2020 on it.

Oh, there's a mega thread on the Facebook page.

It is the craziest case.

And the newest thing that I just read this morning is, so it's basically the woman disappears.

It's a classic thing of their big signs saying, please help us.

Clearly, information.

Then you have to read it.

It's just like, because I actually found it.

I saw it on, I saw like a, oh, there's a thread on the Facebook page.

Like, this must be a good episode.

Yes.

So I found it.

And then I read in the thing that in the in the conversation, I was like, why are they?

Who gives a shit?

It's the same thing that always happens.

And what, you know, there's these photos don't make it.

Like, and I was like, fuck this.

Then I, okay, her husband killed her.

Everyone knows that then.

But I didn't realize how recent it was.

And she came back.

They found her.

Oh, she, they found her on the side of the road chained.

This is gone, girl.

Oh, Allie was telling me about this.

Yes.

It's the craziest thing.

And there's all these additional facts that keep unfolding that are so crazy where it's, it's it's what everyone was saying in the mega thread but it's so true it's like we're just waiting to find out what really happened it's like we're days away from them going they just found this clue and here's what's actually going on because

it's too high heaven yes and everybody's being very kind of aware of that like nobody wants to shame to blame her or point a finger say you are phony or whatever but if you watch the 2020 the it doesn't feel right and there is this do they know it doesn't like can you tell that they know about it not feeling i didn't i it's on my dvr but i haven't watched it yet but there is my sister of course was telling me word for word all about it and then there is a private detective who showed up and said he had a donation from an anonymous donor to a reward that he was going to offer from an anonymous donor and then he kind of started taking over like getting in front of everybody like hey here's how it's going to go and he spokesdon it's It's the weirdest.

It's just weird, weird, weird.

Nothing seems right.

I want to say that I could be totally wrong, but I don't buy it.

And, you know, I saw a couple of minutes of like the husband being interviewed.

Yeah.

And he doesn't seem right.

It's going to be very interesting in like, I think it'll be like a month or less when something is revealed and we're all just going to go, holy shit.

I can't wait.

Because it doesn't, it just doesn't add up.

And there's all these extra things that don't make sense.

Sorry, this is a dumb thing to bring up.

I'm not being specific about it.

No, it's good.

People are into it.

Let's get merch corner out of the way.

Okay.

Myfavorate murdershirts.com.

And I know everyone was like, why didn't you call it my favorite mercher?

And I'm like, because.

You know what?

Everybody has great puns after the fact.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

You weren't, you weren't there.

You weren't there when it happened.

Mentally, I was not there.

If you, if you, not you personally, I'm seeing them.

Like, everybody can think of a great idea when they have seven weeks to think of it.

Right.

I also didn't think this would be a thing.

And so I didn't.

get fucking clever.

And I was like, it's not going to be a thing and people aren't going to understand and they're not going to correctly in

good night.

I feel, no, no, stay awake because I feel like I didn't think this was going to be a thing is the banner that's waving above this podcast.

I love when people like tweet criticisms and I just want to write back, are you fucking kidding me?

Like, you do understand.

You understand this is a conversation we're recording.

Do you know how hurt I would feel if they tweeted that if we put, if we put, if we tried very fucking hard?

Like, I'd be like, shit, we did our fucking best.

God, I stayed up for seven days ready.

And we, and we like the state-of-the-art fucking recording studio, but it's my apartment.

And sometimes there's fires outside.

And sometimes my fucking neighbor downstairs is playing World of Warcraft very loudly.

It's a fucking shit show.

I mean, it just comes back to go fuck yourself.

And the classic Jimmy Pardo quote: listen or don't.

We can't.

We can't.

We just can't.

And we want to.

And we won't.

But we can't.

Do we want to?

I don't know.

Do you want to?

For some of the people.

Maybe.

But do they even?

I don't.

I don't either.

I don't either.

Is that okay?

It's okay.

All right.

So that's merch corner.

I guess this has gone on so long.

Yeah, I know.

I like that we were like, should we do this quickly?

And we're like, yeah, we're just going to, we're going to do this quickly.

We're going to get it done.

George's got a storytelling show.

We're going to zip, zap, zop.

Talkers.

No fucking way.

Well, I just don't get to see you that much.

It's nice to talk to you.

Hey, miss you.

Miss you, miss you.

Bye.

Bye bye.

Did you, you had a thing you wanted to tell me?

I started a new job, which I'm super excited about.

And it's going to be super fun.

Can't wait.

But I like, I very cockily told Georgia, I was like, no, this is going to be easy.

And we're going to be, I'm going to be able to do even more stuff this time because blah, blah, blah.

Well, of course, it's just non-stop 10 a.m.

to like tonight.

I got out at, you know, I'm going to be honest, like my heart was a little broken when you were like, I'm starting on Monday.

Yeah.

I'm like, oh, yeah.

I had you for, I had you for two weeks.

You did.

And now we're in a long distance murder relationship again.

We're back to having to write civil war letters to each other.

We're like each other's, what's it called?

When you get custody of a kid, but like we're together of it.

Oh, like co-parenting?

uh when when you can see a kid sometimes and it's has to be supervised court appointed We're corn-appointed friends.

So like we, Stephen is our fucking corner, court-appointed fucking supervisor.

And like you and I get to be together

once a week.

We have to make sure we don't abuse each other.

Two hours.

No slacking, no drinking.

No, well, hey, no, that's true.

Yeah.

I think I can't not work.

I can't, I can't.

You're working.

This is a job now.

I know, I know.

This is a job, but it, I mean, if anything didn't feel like a job, I would say it's this.

Oh, no, for sure.

Oh, fuck that.

Yeah.

No, this is fucking, this is so stupid.

Like the fact that I'm like, oh, I'm depressed.

What am I?

I'm not doing anything.

Oh, my God.

I have a fucking career called My Favorite Murder.

No, it's the best.

This is hilarious.

It's like the fucking Papini case.

I can't wait to see what unfolds.

It's going to be either tragic and we were wrong.

Yes.

Or everyone's going to owe everybody an apology.

Or fucked up and hilarious.

Right.

And we were right.

Yes.

That sounds fun.

I mean, that's kind of always the option too.

Anyway.

So

murder signals.

And we're back.

I'm sorry.

I enjoy our banter.

I'm sorry that these episodes make me love our podcast.

I think it's just really fun to revisit these conversations.

Yeah.

And I think people like that about it.

Like there's people who don't listen because of the intro.

I totally understand that.

But the people who do listen specifically do it, I think, for the intro.

Yes.

In addition to the rest of it, I don't know.

I feel like we are a niche area of true crime where most true crime people want it a certain way.

And we're like, we're going to give it to you with a different sauce.

And then there's people who are like, I'd never have that sauce.

And how dare you give me that sauce?

And it's like,

absolutely.

God bless you.

And then there's the people that are like, this is the sauce I've been waiting for my whole life.

Right.

And the people are like, I like the thing, but can I get the sauce on the side?

And then they don't, you know, and like, we totally understand that because they still want the thing.

And those are the skippers.

They're sauce on the side people.

They're still there.

And also they're kind of visionaries because how many things do you skip now?

Like, how much time do you spend with your finger on the fast forward thing of almost everything?

Where it's like plus 30, plus 30, plus 30.

We don't have time for other people's bullshit.

Also with the sauce analogy, I really love it because it is like, I want the sauce, but I don't want as much as you fucking put on it.

You know, I'm just talking about food now because when I get to ex-Benedict, I'm like, can you put the Holland down the side, please?

Because it's drowning.

Why is that the norm now?

Yes.

And also, you don't need parsley on top of everything.

It's just a weird color that you're doing to be like colorful, but I don't want to eat a bunch of fucking chopped up parsley.

Right.

So maybe those are like the semi-skippers who like just are fast forwarding through literally what I'm saying right now.

Yeah, that's right.

I like the, I bet it's a lot of younger people who are like, we already know what you're going to say.

Just, it's enough of this shit already, which I'm like, hey, guess what?

Fully support you.

No, mindset.

You fucking never know what we're going to say.

You really think you were going to hear about fucking holiday sauce on a fucking true crime podcast?

I bet you fucking didn't know that.

You didn't know I was going to cry about parsley.

You didn't know.

You had no idea.

Also, I just do want to say, and I'm sorry to be this way, but I saw the joke.

that I said, which is everybody has great puns after the fact.

I really want to make that a bumper sticker only because people always love to be on social media being like, Why didn't you say

you know what you should have called it?

You know what you should have said?

Yeah, easy to do after the fact, hard to do in the moment.

Punzer 2020.

Ow.

My therapist saying that maybe listening and reading true crime constantly isn't great for my mental health.

Not always great.

Yeah.

And a good thing to bring up and tell people where it's like, no one is saying this is always the answer in like for everybody.

Because we run into a lot of people who are like, I had to, I loved your podcast.

I had to stop listening for a while.

But, and that's like, uh-huh.

Yeah.

Totally.

Understood.

We kind of left our bodies on this podcast as well for a while.

It was, I believe, it was called quarantine and it was

35 through nine

around.

Oh, and then you, oh my God, you're talking about the Sherry Papini story.

It like just came out.

I thought the husband did it.

What a moment.

Like those things.

And it was almost like the death knell for those People magazine white lady drama, whatever that's called.

Yeah, yes, the white woman syndrome of the media.

And this was really one of the last big ones, and it was so nonsensical from the beginning.

And she was so racist from the beginning.

Of like, yes, two Latina women, one short, one tall, right?

One with dark hair, didn't understand what they were saying.

Oh, yeah.

Such bullshit.

There is also, there's a Hulu docuseries called Perfect Wife: The Mysterious Disappearance of Sherry Papini.

That's really, really good.

And so good that I never have to hear about it again.

You know what I mean?

Yep.

Or it's like, that's not a story anymore.

Put it to bed.

Put it to bed.

They just put it to bed.

Yeah.

But I'm not, that's not my story.

That's just me taking up more time at the top of the show.

Like, Skippers Unite is truly like, we're almost doing an argument for Skippers in this show.

We really are.

Okay, this has all been.

Skip material.

Now let's start.

Now let's get into the part where the skippers would join us.

Right, right.

It's George's story about Leslie Allen Williams.

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Goodbye.

Are you first or am I first?

Sorry?

Are you first or am I first?

Oh, I thought you said something about a horse.

I swear to God.

Are you a horse or am I first?

Am I a horse this week?

I don't remember.

I don't remember last week at all.

Stephen, we're going to need you to take notes.

Steven, oh, last week was

that one of yours that I keep thinking about of the babysitter and the children.

Oh,

fuck.

That was a rough one.

You went, that was first last week, right?

What was yours?

No idea.

What the fuck is wrong with us?

No, I mean, I'm like,

I'm about to be put into a home.

What is wrong with us?

I was last week.

Lord Lucan, yeah.

Oh,

Lucan.

That fucking guy.

Did you see the people that sent the picture were Lord Lucan and Brad Pitt?

No.

Oh, yes, I saw that one.

And I saw someone went and took a photo of the fucking plumber's arms?

Yes.

Oh, that was the best.

We got two pictures of the plumber's arms, which was the bar that Lord Lucan, I don't know, somebody went to.

But then Brad Pitt looks so much like Lord Lucan when he has his um Inglorious Bastards mustache.

Calling it here first.

This is gonna become a movie.

Brad Pitt's gonna play someone.

We deserve royalties.

Yeah, we boom.

We definitely deserve it.

We had our hand in this pie,

Brad Pitt.

It felt gross.

Uh, it felt gross, but we still want money.

But we left our hand in there, so then it's that means it's you, yeah.

Okay, and mine's not super long, but it sucks.

Uh,

Okay.

All right.

Karen.

Yes.

So in May of 1992,

39-year-old Leslie Allen,

Leslie Allen Williams, it's a dude of Detroit is arrested when the police find a woman in the trunk of his car.

All right.

So that's where we're starting.

A woman's body.

A woman

deceased.

Yes.

Okay.

So,

no, no.

I'm sorry.

Okay.

Sorry.

She's alive.

I'm sorry.

I immediately started questioning.

No, you're right to question because I clearly don't know.

Let me start over.

Okay.

In May of 1992, 39-year-old Leslie Allen Williams of Detroit is arrested when the police found a woman in the trunk of his car, a live woman.

Uh-huh.

He's charged with attempted murder, attempted rape, and kidnapping.

She had just been abducted.

from a cemetery that was close by.

She was visiting her mom's grave.

What?

Like, can you pick a fucking better time, dude?

Oh, like,

I don't know when a good time to get kidnapped is, but it's not then.

Well, I mean, if you're evil, that's the best time.

Yeah.

Oh, man.

Oh, wait till you're at your saddest.

Yeah.

It's either that or when you're watching ordinary people.

There are a couple times I'm going to grab you.

That is the saddest movie.

Yeah.

Or maybe if you're at the pound.

Yeah.

you and then you just walked out of the pound post-pound kidnappings that's going to become the new fucking thing so sad oh that's the new thing or like you're in a dressing room room trying to pull on pants oh i don't this is why i don't go in dressing rooms that's not why but also i don't go dressing rooms that okay i'm just gonna keep thinking i'm saying what would you want and then you go sorry no i love it uh i know we're missing some good ones so

leslie allen williams he's a dude again

um the first time he was arrested was when he was a teenager and he was convicted of attempted breaking and entering larceny from an auto, breaking and entering, assault with intent to commit murder, assault, and first degree criminal sexual conduct when he's a fucking teenager.

Oh, that's that was a ton of things.

Yeah.

Do you think he's going to straighten his life out?

Yes.

Nope.

Turns out nope.

So in 1983, he pleads guilty to sexual assault with intent to commit kidnapping and assault with intent to sexually penetrate for a kidnapping committed.

It was committed less than two weeks after he's paroled from prison.

So the original time he gets prison when he was a teenager, two weeks later, he fucking does all this crazy shit because he's like, I can't control myself.

Yeah.

He's got out and he's like, what should I do?

Yeah.

Pinball.

Yeah.

He's like,

rehabilitation works.

No, it doesn't.

No, it really doesn't.

So at that time in 83, he gets a sentence of seven to 30 years.

In 1990, after serving seven years, he's paroled.

Just the fucking bare minimum.

I mean,

even though I like, it took two weeks for him to commit.

I mean, something that you and I are going to commit in our lifetimes, probably, but not in two weeks.

Right.

You already have a couple of those.

Right.

I don't want to talk about it.

It's not about what I've done.

It's not what I'm guilty of.

Like, we're here to point the finger.

You're so modest.

Like, you don't even want to make this about you.

And like, just so

you don't want to be more badass than Leslie Allen Williams.

My super long rap sheet.

Okay.

Paroled after seven years.

And then, so, when he gets caught with this woman in his trunks who's still alive, that's two years after he's paroled.

So, like, what was he up to those past two years, Karen?

Um, he probably had like a bit, a bunch of pictures on his wall, and he was connecting pictures with red string.

Oh, they do that in every fucking detective movie, right?

Yeah, like plan, but instead of the detective, he's like the criminal that's really planning stuff out.

Yeah,

um, I mean, right, you wanted a suggestion, didn't you?

I did, thank you.

Okay, okay.

I know I did.

So while he's in prison, he tells reporters that he should be, quote, locked up.

And that leads authorities to think that he might be fucking doing, had done some other crimes.

Then his girlfriend, always the fucking girlfriend, was like, you know what?

He liked to visit this one rural field near town.

That maybe you should check that out.

Who visits fields?

Fucking serial killers who bury bodies in those fields.

Other than that, it's like, who, what do you, why do you need to go to a field?

field you're fine without going to that field unless you're a ghost baseball player you don't need to be in that field oh but

that was good though i really liked that that was like quick um

so

so his girlfriend so they go to this place and they find the body of 18 year old Cami Marie Villani Villaniova.

So it's in a field near town, 35 miles northwest of Detroit.

They're like, hey, dude, we found this body in this place.

You like to hang out.

And he was like, well, shit, I did it.

So he confesses.

And then he leads investigators to the bodies of Michelle Urban, who was 16, and her 14-year-old sister, Melissa.

They were originally thought to be runaways

because that's what 14-year-olds do.

He tells them that he had stalked the sisters in their town of Heartland.

It's another suburb of Detroit.

He, he used to break into homes there and he used to break into homes of women he met in his therapist's office.

What?

He went to therapy?

Clearly.

Yeah.

He went to therapy.

This is why I never talked to anyone in the waiting rooms of therapy offices.

And because I hate everyone.

Well, and also, what do you talk about?

I mean, how's it going?

Have you been crying?

I've been crying.

Also, it just makes me mad when you, when we tell these stories to each other and it's like,

you list off all these shitty things someone's done.

It's like, and his girlfriend were like, yeah.

So you can just date really easily.

Not even his ex-girlfriend, like his current girlfriend.

Relationship he's having with another adult.

Probably lives together.

She probably like kicks him down for a fucking Diet Coax.

Yeah.

Right.

At the least.

At the very least.

At the very least.

She's making that son of a bitch casseroles.

Honey, I hope you're happy now.

I don't mean that.

I hope you're fucking happy.

I mean, like, I hope you're happy i truly hope she's happy better things have happened yes uh wishing her well what is it that uh the south people say where they say bless her heart

i always say wishing her well um okay

he stalks them after he had broken into homes of women he had met at his therapist office awesome that makes me feel really great and safe and he started stalking these girls and he had been peeping at them um he saw them eight times over several days while casing houses to rob.

Fuck.

He said he was sexually attracted to the way Melissa, the younger sister, walked.

No, that's not yours to be sexually attracted.

I mean, it's you have a problem.

It's not the way she walks.

It's not, you're not allowed to be sexually attracted to something that someone doesn't want you to be.

You know what I mean?

Does that make any sense?

It's a nice concept, but it doesn't go that way.

Great.

Okay, So armed with a three-inch pocket knife, he confronts the girls by jumping from some bushes

and he puts them in the trunk of his car, rapes them, suffocates them within an hour of kidnapping them.

Oh, God.

They're dead.

This guy's just on a fucking lease.

He's a berserker.

He's just like.

only wants to do bad things all the time.

Well, he's like, I had two weeks before.

Who knows how long I'm going to have before?

But he's like, well, don't do it.

Then don't do it.

Like, you got.

he can't, he clearly

clearly can't.

This is what he wants to do.

Um, then

go to therapy and have a relationship, fucking asshole.

He drives to the Oakland Cemetery, Oakwood Cemetery in Fenton, and dumps the girls in a shallow grave that he had fucking

made before.

Yeah,

um,

okay, then.

So, the next victim is Cynthia Jones.

She's 16, she's found near Milford, which you'll never remember this, but my husband, Vince Averill, is from Milford.

With that terrible story of those two girls.

An equally awful story of a fucking two sweet girls getting murdered in a park in Milford.

Well, it just so happens, there's another girl from Milford.

So in January, she and her boyfriend Luke were confronted inside Luke's park car in Milford, which is Michigan Central Park.

So they're fucking parked making out.

And you're like, I'm safe.

I'm with a guy.

Everything's fine.

It's like, there's two of us.

Like, buddy up.

Nope.

um he they were told he needed their car because he had just robbed a store so he's like trying to get their car um he escorts them both at knife point into the woods ties luke to a tree and takes off with cindy um he drives an hour to his apartment and he rapes and tortures her for a few hours then took her

to

buono road in milford We had a pre-dug, actually, I'm sorry, that was a pre-dug grave, four-foot grave, stabs her, rapes her, puts her unclothed body inside the grave.

Did I ask Vince about this?

Yes, I did.

And what he remembers.

Did he know?

Yeah.

Here's what he said.

Well, to be fair, he's the one who told me to do this story.

So

I said, what do you remember about this?

This is crazy.

Just that her boyfriend got shit because he came up on them in the park and tied him up and took her.

People wanted to know why he didn't do anything.

We were in 11th grade.

That's so awesome.

So he was in class with her, in school with her.

And the boyfriend, people were saying to the boyfriend.

Yeah.

That's fucking.

He just, that's what he remembers.

And then he asked his friend Dan about it.

And he said he doesn't know if it came from court or he just remembered this, that the guy

had had Cynthia for a while before he killed and raped her repeatedly and would tell her he'd let her go if she

if she just let him each time.

Oh, man.

So that's what he remembers, probably from the trial.

Milford, fuck.

And it's like, I've been there.

It's like a charming little suburb.

Suburb.

So all three of the girls, as well as,

as well as the original one, Miss Villanova, they disappeared on weekends between September 14th and January 2nd.

That's four fucking women then.

And then he said to state police detectives, I don't want to cause any trouble.

I don't want to cause taxpayers any grief.

I want to be locked up.

Lock me up so I don't do it again.

I have no control over my life.

Holy shit.

I know.

So his last sentencing had been in 1983 when he threatened to abduct a woman and he released her unharmed.

So he got a shit ton of breaks from the justice system, getting light sentences, early paroles, after guilty pleas on a bunch of charges of breaking and entering rape and assault since 1971.

So multiple fucking breaks.

from rape.

Like you're like, okay, breaking and entering.

Fucking like that just shows you how much fucking women's bodies meant back then.

Rape and fucking assault.

So he gets

sentenced, everything, and fucking Detroit goes crazy because they're like, how the fuck did this happen?

And they want to hold all the parole of parole board members accountable.

Whoa.

Yeah.

So they draft the legislation to make the panel, the panel more accountable.

They would get, they got expanded.

They could only serve three-year terms appointed by the corrections director.

And they could have them removed from the parole board.

And it went crazy.

And this is kind of why

the Detroit or Michigan prison system is

so full is because you can't parole people anymore.

Wow.

It's so easily.

So easily.

It's like really hard to get parole.

Ever again.

Wow.

Yeah.

So it's hard to get paroled.

So they're fucking crowded to shit.

Okay.

Also, there's a war on drugs and there shouldn't be.

Okay.

And then

so he's, he's 62 years old now.

He's serving multiple life sentences in the Carson City Correctional Facility in Michigan.

Hope you don't live there, everyone.

We're not doing a show there.

Please.

So then in July 2000, a local woman shares this memory she had from 1976.

She says she's the one that got away and hoped her story would enlighten everyone to trust their instincts.

She said she was followed by a man, stalked before stalking laws were in place, which everyone thinks back that there was not stalking laws in place for so long.

For so long.

Even now, they're light in a lot of places, right?

Um,

and he captures her, manages to get away with her mom, and they report the police there was nothing they could do because he hadn't committed a crime.

Oh, so he was aggressively stalking her.

He kidnaps her, but I don't know if he kidnapped her.

Oh,

he didn't kidnap her.

Oh, oh, sorry.

No, I'm sorry.

No.

I'm the one.

No, I am.

In the end, she wrote, it's human nature to assume that things like this happen to someone else somewhere else.

I'm here to say that it can happen to you and it can happen here.

I grew up in a small town called Fenton, Michigan, and the man that chased me was Leslie Allen Williams.

Are you willing to go on assuming that this can happen to you?

Wow.

Yeah.

Oh, so he chased her and then her mom showed up and she got away in chase.

So he had been aggressively stalking her before that, and the cops were like, Well, he didn't commit a crime, he didn't.

Once he stabs you, let us know.

And then we'll give him two years in prison.

Well, that, and yeah, that's why those people that got those stalking laws, I mean, there's like TV movies about it where it's just like it's gone on for so long, and it's basically like, Well, we can't do anything.

I'm terrified of, have you ever been stalked?

No,

I had a

creep once, but it wasn't like aggressive stalking.

Just like a place I worked at that this person would like show up a lot.

This is why, again, like, why isn't attempted murder tried more harshly?

They attempted to murder someone and they didn't do it.

So you're only going to give them a quarter of the time they would have gotten weaker.

We can't keep talking about this.

Yes, we can.

And we can change things and maybe we'll change the law.

But the law you want to change is you want attempted murder to be changed into murder.

No, I want it to be be fucking, I want it to be harsher sentences.

Yes.

Well, but all around, I mean, I agree with you in that way.

And we are reading stories from sometimes that are from like 20, 30 years ago, where it, it almost just is a cult, it's a cultural attitude where it's like, that's fine, or they'll go to jail, it'll change.

And there is that thing of like, yes, rape is a, you know, there was a, there was a man who I think this, this was a story that was tweeted.

He, it was a pedophile.

He was arrested and given 522 years in jail.

So it's like, I think we are catching up to this idea that we want to ensure that these people don't hurt people anymore.

But the idea that it was set up so that this man was harsher on himself than the parole board

on him.

He was saying, please lock me up.

Please take this seriously.

I mean, that's crazy.

Yeah.

Fucked up.

And that Vince knew one of the fucking.

Oh,

the idea that that guy got shit for basically being a victim.

It wasn't even like people suspected him.

You know what I mean?

Like, you know how that happens.

Like, oh, we think it was the boyfriend.

It wasn't even like, it was worse than that because you could never be proven otherwise.

Like, it's not like they caught the killer.

It wasn't me.

And everyone's like, sorry.

It's like, no, you fucking suck because.

you didn't do anything.

You didn't do anything.

And it's like, you don't know what the situation is like.

Well, and also if your life is being threatened, like it's, you can't do anything, it's that's just people

really mismanaging their own anxiety and being like, I'll blame you.

This is the easiest thing to do.

Like, this wouldn't have happened to me because of this other thing, right?

Which is exactly, it's like, yeah, you're trying to make yourself feel better by going, if I was in that situation, I would have been able to take care of it, therefore, you are at fault.

When it's like, I don't think so.

No, that's and what an awful thing to do to another person.

Yeah, no, dude.

Nah.

Hey,

did you get your hair cut?

I cut my hair over my sink tonight.

That looks really cute.

Does it?

Yeah, I'm sorry because I was thinking about that part of the time.

Thank you.

But it's a really good shape.

It's not like a mom bob, though, is it?

Not in the least.

It's actually super 20s.

That's why I was very distracted by it.

Because I keep thinking I look like I would like be a mom in a minivan commercial.

You know what I mean?

No, it has really good angles.

Okay.

Thank you.

I cut it myself.

I went to three months of beauty school.

This is the way that I offset my anxiety about hearing about terrible things.

Yeah, I want everyone to know that like we are not terrible people.

We're just, this is like us lightening the load of fucking pressing anxiety.

If you think we're terrible because we talk about hair,

F it.

Stop.

Then you can listen or you can't.

What was it?

Listen or don't.

Right.

Okay, we're back.

Any updates for this story, Georgia?

Well, I mean, one personal update.

I was sitting next to Vince while I was studying this Rewind episode, and I was like, I had completely forgotten that he knew the victim, Cynthia Jones, 16-year-old Cynthia Jones, and her boyfriend, Luke, who had been confronted with Cynthia.

He like knew them, knew them, like went to school with them throughout and said he was a really nice guy.

And then also, I was like, did people say shit to him about it?

He's like, all I remember is that our coach, because he's like on a team with him, coach came into the locker room at one point when he wasn't there and said, nobody better say shit to him about not having, you know, done something to defend her because it's just as impossible.

And thank God that coach said that back then.

And

Jesus, for real, that's like such a incredible empathetic awareness.

I wonder if he came up with that on his own as a coach and was just like being a good person or if some crisis counselor was like, here's what you need to say.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Vince had some fucked up shit happen in this like sweet little town.

It's so crazy.

Yeah.

And as for the story, we talked about how Leslie Allen Williams kept getting early release and parole before he was caught for these murders.

And I said how it eventually led to legislation changes and is now part of the reason why the Michigan prison system is so full.

Well, according to the Council on Criminal Justice, Michigan's average prison sentence length is roughly three times the national average.

Whoa.

I know.

And the state leads in the proportion of its prison population serving sentences longer than 10 years.

Wow.

The Second Look Sentencing Act is a proposed legislation that would allow those who have served at least 20 years to petition their original court for a sentence reduction, and anyone approved would still serve the remainder of their reduced sentence and be subject to parole review before release.

And that would hopefully combat the outdated and rigid sentencing system and recognize that excessively long sentences often outlive their purpose and fail to reflect personal transformation.

But those convicted of criminal sexual conduct, terrorism, mass shootings, and certain domestic violence cases would be ineligible.

And then finally, Leslie Allen Williams remains in prison to this day.

Yeah.

Should we get to your story that should be three episodes, but we didn't really know a lot about it?

I got to say this.

I was like, oh shit, this is this episode where I so clearly am like, it's like getting called in front of the class and being like, Karen, would you like to give your oral report on the book you were supposed to read?

And it's like,

crack, crack, crack my knuckles and just be like, um, I was going to do this and then I did this, but it's a very upsetting

to me.

Like, here's the thing.

If you're going to start a podcast, just quick reminder, it's forever.

So what you are recording is forever.

You will be held to account if people pay enough attention.

And this was a real me having maybe two jobs at that time and trying to get my homework done and just not getting it done.

So thinking I could be conversational about these cases, I knew facts about the Letterman stalker to kind of hold that up.

But the idea that I was going to try to improvise through talking about Israel Keys, who is one of the most prolific serial killers in America, is such a green, ridiculous thing.

So but we know that now we didn't really know at the time.

And yeah, this is like just shows how far we've come now.

This is 2016 still when we're fucking brand new babies at this and making it up as we go along.

As Bradford likes to say, Bradford Berleski, who works in our legal department, you were building the plane as you were flying it.

And that is absolutely as scary and as accurate, right?

The railroad tracks were being literally placed in front of our big mouth train.

And I was literally like coming to a point in my writing career that I had been working toward for literally 10 years.

And then it was like, you got to quit that.

And it's like,

how am I going to do this?

This is, it was wild.

But I, so anyway, not to make excuses, whatever, listen with a grain of salt and with this, you know, with my full apologies of the casualness of the Israel keys part, it's truly like saying, let me just synopsize for you in five minutes what's in the New York City library.

We're just like, good luck, dummy.

What are you doing?

Why would you do this?

Because we're us.

Let's do it.

Let's get into Karen's story.

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Goodbye.

Now that it's my time to shine,

this is not going to be good.

I love it.

I made this mistake.

Here's, I'll walk you through my mistake.

Please.

I started going into very deeply researching a woman named

Mary Margaret Ray.

And she was David Letterman's stalker for years

in the 80s.

And it, it is a story that has fascinated me forever because she

was obsessed with David Letterman.

She would break into his house.

She would steal his car.

She would get pulled over, speeding in his car, and tell the cops that she was Mrs.

David Letterman and they would let her go.

How did she get in their house?

This was back when there were, again, this is the time where, like, he, I'm sure, he like locked the front door or whatever.

And then she would be like, I need to get into that house and make it happen.

She would leave presents for him inside the house.

One time he was in bed with his girlfriend watching TV and they looked up and she was standing in the hallway.

Oh my God.

Yes.

And, but here's the mistake that they made because nobody knew anything about stalking and all the psychology of it.

He would talk about it on the TV show.

So she got all this attention and she was like positive reinforcement.

Well, and the thing that she had, she had schizophrenia and it's a very sad story.

Of course, once I started looking into it, it's an incredibly sad story because she had it and so did two of her brothers and so did her father.

So it's just

no chance.

I mean, that's, it's so rough.

And it's the classic thing of she would start taking her medication, get better, and think she didn't need medication anymore.

That's everyone.

Not even.

That's everybody does that.

Even if she's better now.

Even if she wasn't schizophrenic, she still was fucked, you know, by that many.

I mean, not that everyone is, but like, you're going to have some fucking issues.

Well, because schizophrenia, they believe, is very genetic.

Right.

And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's very difficult.

And in that family, it's like that.

I mean, that's just such a sad story.

I mean, I, oh, honey, but like, what, you know,

yeah, it's just an interesting thing that you have to look at.

everyone's life like everyone's kind of a victim and a fucking yes and a well and like it's easy for we it's the thing i love the most about this podcast we just get to say our opinion we're not obviously not experts obviously um but you're not an expert well I mean I do I do know how to cut and paste from Wikipedia so yes I am an expert in that way

but yes everybody has there's backstory and context to everything you know but anyway the thing was

he would talk about it like there was a bit he would call his house and then go, oh, good, no one's home and hang it.

Like there, it was like he would do things like that on the show.

But she not only had schizophrenia, but she had a thing called erotomania, which is a delusional disorder where you believe that another person is in love with you.

And usually it's applied to someone with higher status or it's someone famous.

No, I have that with Vince.

Yeah, no, I get it.

That guy.

I have it with Elvis.

Elvis and Vince.

They totally love you so much.

Yeah.

So, but the problem is that in the delusion, they think that

the secret admirer is declaring their affection through special glances, signals,

telepathy, or messages through the media.

Like on your fucking talk show.

So then he's actually doing it.

You idiot.

Didn't anyone tell him?

No one knew.

They didn't know how to, like that, how to handle this situation.

That's a man thing to do in my mind.

But it's also just an uneducated

like at the time, people were like, peeping toms are funny.

He just really likes you.

Yes.

Stalkers are like, he's so nice.

Don't friend zone him.

Totally.

What did you do to make him stalk you?

That kind of thing.

Exactly.

Why are you wearing short skirts if you don't want a stalker?

Yeah.

And the thing that when I found out this part, because I was insanely obsessed with Letterman when I was growing up, I used to go to bed and this when I was like 12 and 13.

And I would get back up at 12.30 and go pull the chair really close to the TV and watch Letterman from 12:30 to 1:30 every night.

So, you were kind of the stalker too.

I also was a stalker.

But I just, what was happening on that TV was like, there's this other world out there that I can't believe exists that I want to be a part of so bad.

Where it's like Chris Elliott popping up as the man underneath the stairs type of stuff, where you're like, none of this entertainment is on my normal daytime TV.

I love it.

So, it was very exciting.

So, I kind of like, was like, yeah, I get why she's, she wants to go to his house and drive his car and say she's married to him.

He's the only, that's the only talk show I could ever fucking stand.

Yeah.

Because he wasn't doing normal talk show things.

Totally.

And he was so insanely rude.

So it devolved.

She actually eventually kind of went off him and started stalking an ex-astronaut.

But it was just all step down.

Yes, exactly.

I bet David Letterman was like, what?

Yeah.

He's like, bitch.

Eventually, though, and this is the worst part because she knew her life was that it was she was just out of control she killed herself by kneeling in front of a train no

and when i heard that the first time i was just like it's so awful it's so like

It's so insanely sacrificial.

It's so, it's so symbolic or something.

And she wrote her mother a letter saying she was going to do it, saying, I want to die in the valley that I love.

And she did it some, I can't remember, it's somewhere in like, in somewhere in Montana, I think, or something.

It's just such a dramatic story.

Anyway, I did all this work and research.

And then by the end, realized, well, that's not a murder.

That's a very sad story of extreme mental illness and suicide.

And then I was like, oh, so then I had to start over.

Oh, wait.

So you're starting now?

So now I'm starting, but this will be fast.

No, I'm kidding.

Okay.

Because you're like, I have,

so now you're starting.

Oh, so you're you're going to do two murders?

This is the thing.

And I just, I guess I wanted to say all that because that's what I'm interested in.

And that was

a fascination that I had.

A person that is, a female stalker is a fascinating concept that almost never happened.

I like that we can do this because sometimes I'll find these crazy stories and be like, but there's no murder.

But like, fuck, it's fucked up.

Right.

I think we should talk about those.

Maybe we should change the fucking title of the book.

Yeah, let's change this whole concept.

We really painted ourselves into a corner.

Let's, Stephen, erase what we've done so far.

Erase the fast 45 episodes.

So, this is what I did, and this will just be the fastie because this is actually super fast.

So, it's equally fascinating, but it's almost like

inverted opposite.

It's a shorty, okay.

And it's the story of the insane serial killer, Israel Keys.

He's the guy.

Did you ever see that

movie, The Minus Man, starring

what his name?

Owen Wilson.

And it's basically a guy that just kind of goes around,

really nice, chill guy, traveling from town to town, killing people randomly and leaning town.

This, that's basically so.

Israel Keys,

they don't know that much about him, and he killed people from

2001 to 2012.

What the fuck?

And he

went literally, he um worked as a contractor in Alaska and he would take that money and then he also would rob banks and he would take all that money and he would buy plane tickets so that he could go and to random cities, rent cars, and go murder somebody.

And they wouldn't be connected.

Nothing would be connected and then he would just go to a different city.

Fuck.

It's so fucking crazy and so it's almost like it doesn't even scare me because it's beyond like it's just beyond.

It's almost like he was he he had to look like you can see his um his uh mug shot online and he looks like a dude that would be in like a north face catalog.

Like he's he's young and kind of cute and he looks very like sporty.

Like a little weather worn, but like in a hot fucking rugged way.

Yes.

Like he looks like a guy that would be on a hiking trail like one of the ages of the sexiest man alive in the dosekis commercials when he's like 30 something

am i getting this right yes okay so the sexiest man alive is into camping this is this guy oh also and murder so

so he and he would do that he would go to remote places so he would go to um hiking trails he would go to like national fucking parks it's the national park

this is the national park guy so he would go into these places um and then just like

just steal one person easy yes easy and take them

torture rape murder whatever bury their bodies somewhere and then just move on and he would pre-plan it so he had okay so i i'll just read you what i have so

And I got a lot of this from this awesome, it's just an FBI press release where they just said, here's everything we know.

If you know anything, please call us.

So they're so

because when they finally arrested him.

Oh, God, he got arrested.

They arrested him.

They got him to talk a little bit.

And then he committed suicide in jail.

So they knew, they know for a fact that he killed 11 people for sure.

They can like patch it all back.

It's never that.

It's so many more because

the amount of planning that went into these things is super crazy because he would bury caches

all around the country.

So they were basically like kill kits with money in them.

What?

So

he could go there and be like, here's my kill kit.

Yep.

But he wouldn't be traveling with it.

Right.

So if a cop pulled him over and he had a rental car and he was in Arizona, the cop would be like, oh, it's a dude in a rental car.

You're speeding.

Knock it off.

At no time was there like, what's that duffel bag?

I mean, if you're going to be that fucking like, what's the word, organized and dedicated?

Dedicated, like, just be a fucking coder or something.

Like, get a job.

Like, be a normal.

I know.

Why do you, why do you have to dedicate that?

Don't be a dick.

I got to be bad.

Yeah.

He's got to be bad.

This guy said, apparently, when he got.

out of the army.

So he was like, he got kicked out of the house when he was 17.

And his parents, who used to be Amish and then joined some weird um they

one of the articles said it was like a cultish church in wells texas like the amish like similar to the amish cult yeah but they like build nice things and they like you know they have that have you ever seen that areas that space heater that they make it's really nice come on um

Well, anyway, he got kicked out of the house and his parents told his siblings, you're not allowed to talk to him anymore, which I want to know what the hell happened because but malefs and everyone

like everyone in town he was just like super rude at thanksgiving um one of the two but so he told the fbi that he had buried some of those caches so sorry i was gonna say he went into the army for a while he got uh

disbarred

from the army disonerably discharged discharge that's right and uh dishonorably?

No.

He just regularly discharged.

But he told people that he was in the army with, I can't wait to get out of the army so I can kill a bunch of people.

Cool.

Super chill.

Super like, oh, do you want to go get a beer later?

Okay, no, that's cool because you want to go kill people.

Oh, that Israel always joking around.

You know, that guy is real.

So he,

so apparently he has these caches buried in

the FBI actually went and found there was one in Eagle River, Alaska, and there was one near Blake Falls Reservoir in New York.

And

then they also, oh, he admitted to burying

them in Green River, Wyoming.

And this is why I have a metal detector.

Right.

And Port Angeles, Washington.

Okay.

And he's doing tours there.

All those places.

Find a cache.

That'd actually be like a new

geocaching, but you're actually trying to find find Israel Key's caches with geocaching.

Yeah.

He didn't know any of his victims prior to their abductions.

He described several remote locations that he frequented to look for them, parks, campgrounds, trailheads, cemeteries, boating areas.

And he frequented prostitutes during his travels.

Sex workers.

Sorry, sex workers.

And it is unknown at this time if he met any of his victims in this manner.

Of course, because they don't really know who the victims are.

Jesus.

And he indicated to the FBI that his victims are male and female in a rage and age from teens to elderly.

That see that when they're, when they get that fucking nonspecific, they're fucking out of there.

Like, that's crazier, right?

He wants to kill everybody.

He just wants to kill people.

He just wants to kill everybody.

Okay.

So his murders occurred in less than 10 states,

but he didn't tell them all the locations.

So basically,

he's just was doing, he was kidnapping people in one state and taking them across state lines intentionally to kill them in a different state.

Because then they wouldn't be missing people, they wouldn't be connected to missing.

That's right.

So they find a body in Kansas and they don't know

anything because the person is missing from whatever state is next to Kansas, how would I know?

I only have like a seventh grade education.

We are the best fucking podcasters that have ever podcasted.

Yes, for real.

Oh, also, it says here, he would kidnap them in one state, murder them in a second state, dispose of their body in a third state.

Why that middle, middleman?

Because he just wants to keep it clean, because he wants to be able to keep doing it no matter what, which he did for years.

And how?

Oh, no, keep going.

Sorry.

So I'm not trying to lead you along.

He also burglarized 20 to 30 homes and he committed arson to cover up the homicides.

So it's just everything.

He's just throwing it all.

It's a casserole of bad things.

Okay.

He starts in 1997.

His first victim was a girl who was inner tubing down the Deschutes River in Oregon.

And

Stephen knows where that is.

Oh, my mom lives in Bend right now.

Oh, so that's on.

Is that on the Deschutes?

We don't know.

It's a girl between 14 and 18 years old who is tubing.

He

takes her off of her inner tube, pulls her into the woods, sexually assaults her,

puts her back on the inner tube, puts her on.

And

she never reported it.

Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.

So the only reason they even know this happened is because he told them it happened.

You think, you know what?

You know one of the safest places I would think are?

On the on an inner tube in the middle of a fucking lake.

With your friends.

With your friends.

And he, oh my,

God.

oh, there's the word discharged.

In 2001, he was discharged from the U.S.

Army.

Then from 2001, July to October, he resided in Nia Bay, Washington.

And there he committed his first homicide, but they don't know who or where he killed.

He just said that's where he did it.

Wow.

From 2001 to 2005, he murdered.

This is all him telling the FBI.

He murdered an unidentified couple in Washington.

He refused to tell them if the couple was married, what their relationship to one another was.

So it's actually not a couple.

It's just two people.

He's so sad.

And they don't know if they were residents of Washington's tourist or residents he abducted from another state and brought over.

I don't know why it's like worse for me when they're unidentified because it's just like.

You just know that there are so many people suffering, suffering and wondering and waiting and

that don't have answers.

Yeah.

I mean, it's devastating when you do, but at least you're able able to

know it.

Like, you're dealing with facts instead of any possible thing.

So it's like he really did want as many people to suffer as possible.

Awful.

2005 to 2006, in the summer to fall months, he admitted he committed two murders independent of one another.

He used his boat to dispose of the bodies of these victims.

And he stated that at least one of the bodies was disposed of in Crescent Lake in Washington, where he used anchors to submerge the body.

Oh my my God.

And he, it, he said it was submerged in more than 100 feet of water, and that he moved their cars

a distance between between where the vehicles were found and where the crime occurred.

And he didn't say who the people were.

So basically, when the, it sounds like when the FBI is interviewing him, he's just kind of giving them the very most basic things.

That might even not be true.

Right.

And that now you go run and try to figure this out.

Good luck with that.

um so then he drives from washington state to anchorage alaska where he lives until his arrest um so from 2007 till 2012.

how'd he get arrested uh

it's at the bottom of this list

look i'm gonna be honest it's at the bottom of this list

um

uh oh i know what it is it's he murdered an old couple in vermont and it got a bunch of press and it was one another one of his super random things.

Oh no, I'm sorry.

That got, they were like in the press a bunch, but then he stole the ATM card of one of his victims.

And then when he went to his sister's wedding in Wells, Texas, he started using the ATM and they got onto this stolen ATM cards being used and they got him there.

What a fucking rookie move.

But it also sounds like after this much time, like 11 years of just constant randomness, he's never going to get caught.

Catch me.

Or he's like, I can't do this anymore.

There might have been a part of him that's just like, I don't want to do this anymore.

Maybe.

Because even, even something great and fun after 12 years, you're like, ah, I don't know.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, that's not getting boring.

So then it just basically, the rest of this fucking thing is a list of cities

and like very vague crimes and people that they can't.

and when i was reading it and it it goes on and on and there was a there's a reddit thread that the person is like updated on this date in green updated on this date in purple so they just keep on finding details and they it literally is he bought a southwest ticket um from anchorage alaska to san diego he walked on foot into tijuana he was there for two days walked on foot back took a southwest flight to Tempe, Arizona.

And it's this stuff where you're like, he has this pattern like with the intertubing girl of just grabbing them and dragging them to the woods.

They're like, oh, you know, the person who disappeared, we saw her talking to a, you know, shaggy haired dude in a bar.

It's not like she's like, he's taking them home and like, you know, pretending to have a relationship with them.

He's fucking dragging.

Like there's no, there's no connection.

You're right.

They never saw this person before.

Yeah.

They don't, they probably never saw him coming.

Like it's a place where people wouldn't be.

Like if it's a trailhead snatched and then he's there and gone.

Yeah.

Also in the list, as I'm reading it, he was in Santa Rosa, which is the town above Petaluma.

Oh my God.

There's a whole part where he's in Napa Valley.

He's all, he went on a like a whole

wine tour

up in Northern California.

And the whole thing is like that, where I just, I started thinking about that.

I got super scared.

I saw he flew into the Oakland airport.

He rented a car he drove up to napa then he stayed for like one night in one of those whiny hotels then he drove to santa rosa where and i'm looking at the years like my god what year and was there anybody missing and doing oh my god yeah totally and but then as i read the rest of the list it's like and you could do that with every location yeah across america but i wonder if he did no no he did but the why can't we find them find what the people that are dead and because they don't even know It's like there's the missing persons for, say, Tempe, Arizona in 2007.

He did it all.

Well, they don't know.

He could have done one.

He could have done them all.

He could have just gone there, drank wine and Napa and left.

He's that like, and whatever he was doing, he had his cash thing.

He never, nobody ever saw him.

He didn't go somewhere to buy a knife.

Yeah.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

He had money.

If something happened and they were like, you know, he ran out of money, he would have a cash nearby where there was like bills waiting buried underground.

He's the fucking best Boy Scout in the world who's also a fucking dick.

If a Boy Scout went fucking nuts,

just like had to rub that stick to try to make that fire and just snapped and was like, you know what?

Fuck this.

I'm going to be the devil walking on earth.

Yeah.

For 11 years.

Yeah.

And it's just, it's so random that that's the other thing I realized that this sucks because there's no specific storyline or even like any, anybody

because it's all just like, and then he probably killed one random person.

Like he's the one that there was, I don't know if you ever heard about that.

There were the two kids that were spending the night on the beach in San Francisco.

They just got shot.

I almost did that one, but it's just such a weird.

They think it's him.

Totally was him.

They think it, they do think that it's him because it's the kind of thing where it, when, when that was.

The murder connection, it makes no fucking sense.

There's nothing left behind.

They're Christian camp kids who are who are like trying to just have a camp out one night on the beach for fun, and they both get shot in the head execution style, but there's no way they have anything attached to like a drug dealer, or there's no reason.

None, and he is the he's the guy that's the no reason murderer because that doesn't make any like there's there should be a pattern to killers, you know, exactly.

And if you don't have one, then you're probably less likely to get caught.

Right.

Fuck.

It's so crazy.

It's so crazy.

And also, it goes on and on.

And then at the end of this thing, there's a whole chunk called additional, additional murders.

And so it's like he would, he gave additional details regarding the abduction and the murder of a female described as having pale skin, possibly having a wealthy grandmother, driving an older car.

That's you.

Oh my God.

It's that.

There's just a bunch of i wish what a controlling thing to do and then you're like you know how i'm gonna get out of this kill myself yeah

because i'm sure that the the the interviewers were like okay we're starting to get we're starting this up we're asking him these questions we're gonna bring in billy bob he's fucking gory to getting out of people like he you know like yeah we're gonna do this and we're gonna start really putting some of the stuff together and with the information he's giving them he's saying i can i can tell you everywhere i was i can give you all these details.

And then, but bye.

Goodbye.

I'm not actually going.

Like, what a, what a controlling

insane.

So if you, it, to me, this is like built for web sleuths.

Yeah.

It's so totally.

It's so perfect.

But I mean, it just goes on and on.

But if you go on there and you see, if you know of a missing person or some kind of murder case, it's a really good comparison, I guess, chart because you have the years years and you do have vague descriptions.

You can, they say

if you have information, you can call the FBI

at 1-800-CAL FBI.

No, it isn't.

Yeah.

That's not enough.

1-800.

See, that's not enough.

C-A-L, that's three.

L-F-B-I.

That's four.

Fuck.

They're not going to give you not enough numbers.

But what is wrong with my brain?

That I, that call was like, that's three letters.

I love it.

But you're the one that's going to figure that out.

You're like, you know what?

The FBI is fucking us over right now.

That doesn't lead anywhere.

It's not enough.

It's another mystery.

Oh my God.

What a fucking idiot.

Like, I, what is wrong with my, you know what?

This naturopath is going to fucking hear me.

Cause clearly I got some issues.

So that's, I feel like the Israel Keys case is one where basically what I'm saying is go look up the name Israel Keys because it'll freak your shit out.

Yeah.

But there's not,

I'm sure there's plenty more to say and we'll hear about all of it, but that's as much as I, I mean, like, that's ridiculous.

Cause you do certain things like as someone who's very aware of that murders happen and, you know, I do certain things like when I use my credit card at a fucking,

what are they called?

A meter.

Yeah.

A parking meter.

I'm like, here's it.

This is another trace as to where I was that day.

Like in case something happens, you know, or like I'll go into a liquor store and the camera's here, it'll show me going to the liquor store that day.

But it's like, if that's not, if you can't track someone else having followed you or like between this parking meter and something else, like if there's just snatch and fucking grab.

Well, yeah, because he's not going to grab you at a parking meter or in a liquor store.

No, he's going to, he's going to grab the person that decided to go on a nice nature walk by themselves.

Don't do it, you guys.

Why would you do that?

Not even by yourself, with someone else, even, which you think you're safe.

Go in packs of five

with knives with fucking rottweilers with knives taped to your hands and knives taped your rottweilers and then just tons of guns and just start shooting at any sound you hear anyone who fucking approaches you shoot them shoot them disclaimer we're fucking joking you can't sue us yes we're joking

we're not liable

uh so that's my super unsatisfying uh actual murderer case of israel keys that's good okay thanks i did too sorry the one night you're like can i get out of here early and i'm like you know what i'm gonna do give you two

what a dick uh no we're good on time i'm still good

uh i mean we're not but

let's just lay this is more important to me i'm sorry public school at the virgil but but this is more important what a great show please go to public school at the virgil once a month public school at the virgil it's not as important as my favorite

oh my god no i'm kidding it's such a good show that's a joke okay

Do we, do, should we each say one thing that we like or that makes us happy?

One thing that made us happy in the past week.

Yeah.

Okay.

Oh, do you want me to go first?

Because I have one.

Oh, you do have one.

Okay.

It is, I've been listening to,

you must remember this, the podcast by Karina Longworth.

And it, I'm so obsessed with it.

I started.

Somebody recommended to me the Manson series because she goes,

it's Manson's Hollywood, I think it's called.

And it's like a six-part series.

But she,

I mean, talk about research, talk about, talk about a person who cares.

Polar opposite.

I mean, if you hate us, this is the podcast for you.

You haven't made it to the end.

Yeah.

But it is, she's, you're spite listening right now.

Yeah.

And congratulations, because here's the payoff.

Yeah.

It's such, it's, it's the kind of thing where I didn't think I was that interested in old time Hollywood.

Yeah.

And it is fascinating.

It's gossipy.

It's kind of dirty.

There's all these things where you're like, I had no idea that happened.

It's just, and it's beautifully done.

And so, yeah, I highly recommend that.

That's a great, I was going to say, no, you know what I'm going to say?

So I found a new author.

It's like a true crime.

No, no, no.

It's a fiction, a fictional author.

I'm listening to her audiobooks and it's like crime and it's fucked up and it's fucking like a British procedural.

Ooh.

So I don't know why I didn't know that I was into this.

So I'm fighting it.

Yeah, but I like listening to it on an audiobook.

So it's called Blacklands, the one I'm listening to right now by Belinda Bauer, B-A-U-E-R.

It's fucked.

Like this is, she's, it's, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Cause it's not.

Yeah.

It's totally.

It absolutely.

I mean, it is, but it's not.

Yeah.

And it, it's not trying to be.

No, it just is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's good.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Uh, what do we want to?

Our website is up and I should have a shows page that has all our shows on it.

So you'll be able to track it there.

Yeah.

All that information we tried to give you at the beginning or we did give you at the beginning, you can have in like a way to reference.

The website is called, and I'm trying to think of something like super, like really dumb and funny that it would be, but it's not.

It's just my favorite murder.

Oh, you mean like

oh, uh, the fuckword murder mystery show?

Oh, yeah.

That would be cool.

Sorry.

Oh, there's too much talking.org.

Something like that.

Skipper, Skippers.

Skippers Unite.

You guys, thanks for uniting

with us.

Yes.

And listening.

We fucking, you guys are the ones.

You guys are the ones.

You're the one for me.

And the people who are for us.

And like, we truly,

truly, truly, truly, truly.

Thanks for listening.

No, stay sexy.

Don't get murdered.

Elvis, you want a cookie?

Wow.

Good boy.

Bye.

Bye.

He did that right on Q.

He did that on Q.

He's waiting.

He's been waiting.

Yeah, he has.

Him fucking tearing shit up is like, is him saying,

fuck, what the fuck?

Where's the cookie?

Yeah.

He doesn't do that because his Vince always gives him cookies.

And we're back.

Karen,

any updates on any of this?

Yes, there are.

Yeah.

There's so many unanswered questions, of course, about Israel Keys, how many victims he has, where those victims are, how many states he hit.

I mean, he was truly like going out there trying to be uncatchable.

So, and because of that, he was.

In 2020, the FBI released images of skulls that had been drawn by Israel Keys with his own blood.

They were found under his bed in his jail cell in a 48-hour special.

FBI special agent Jolene Godin explained, quote, he drew a series of 11 skulls and one of them says, We are one.

We believe that 11 is the total number of victims.

Wow.

So you can look that up.

Obviously, many true crime fans probably have already read it.

So the confirmed victims of Israel Keys are Bill and Lorraine Courier, that couple from Vermont, Samantha Kaning of Anchorage, Alaska.

And that was Samantha Kaning's ATM card that Israel Keys was using when he got caught in Texas.

Right.

And we have talked about Josh Hallmark's podcast, True Crime Bullshit, a lot, but that was also in my reapproach to doing this story, which is so gigantic.

I started listening to this podcast.

It's really incredible.

I really love it.

He is, Josh Hallmark is such a great podcast host, and he's so serious about really trying to find bodies, victims, any like trying to clear missing persons' cases from years back.

It's such incredible work that he has been doing for the past decade.

Hallmark says, no murder kits have been found since Keyes' death in 2012, but over 70 topographical maps of various areas of the country were found on Key's computer by the FBI.

And so Josh thinks that these maps will help the FBI and others locate more murder kits, cash, or bodies that have been hidden, essentially.

Can you imagine if they have been found, those kits, and like someone didn't know what they were and just

threw them away?

Yeah.

You're just like walking through the forest and you kick a couple pine sprigs over and then there's just a duffel bag filled with a very overt murder kit.

Call the police, people, please.

Please call the police.

And also don't remember, if you have any information about anything, you can call the FBI at 1-800-Call FBI, which Georgia doesn't think is a real phone number.

Because you said there's not enough numbers.

1-800-CALL FBI is so funny.

So that's just the top scratching the surface of Israel keys.

Wow.

All right, skippers.

You made it to the end.

Don't skip this part.

It's really important.

It's about you.

It's about you because we're going to take the pressure off you.

And if we were to name this episode something aside from skipping the skippers.

Well, we could name it after George's joke about Stephen giving me that Diet Coke tall boy.

And the title would be Stephen's Your New Mommy.

It's pretty comfortable.

Yeah.

Let's see.

Pond of shame.

I like that one about what you said about the show's success.

Going to a naturopath or walking down a natural path to a pond of shame.

Where were we?

What were we doing?

How much whiskey had I had?

And also, like, what, you know, you skip that?

Yeah.

That magic back and forth between you and I.

You're going to miss all the fucking holiday sauce that we dump on ourselves.

You don't.

Unless you have high cholesterol, don't do it.

Truly.

And there's parsley on top of it anyway, so you get your greens.

Yeah, it'll clear you right out.

Fine.

How about, yeah, you just the casserole of bad things.

That's of course talking about Israel Key's crimes, but also so many things these days, just a casserole of bad things.

That's true.

Some crunchy, like topping on there, yeah, those fried onions.

Ooh, yeah, yeah.

All right, well, thanks, skippers, thanks, skippers, non-skippers alike.

More thanks to the non-skippers.

You're really in there with us for this one, especially.

Yeah, and stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Goodbye,

Elvis.

Do you want a a cookie?

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Goodbye.