Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 58: Some Quiet Sunday

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Hello,

and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

This is that Wednesday show where we recap our old episodes with all new commentary, updates, and insights.

So, today we're recapping episode 58, which we named Some Quiet Sunday.

This episode came out on March 2nd, 2017.

Let's get into it and listen to the intro.

Welcome to my favorite murder.

Hi, welcome to my favorite murder.

Hello.

Welcome to my favorite murder.

Hello.

Hello.

Hello.

Got to learn how to start this thing someday.

What was wrong with that?

Really creepy, unnatural speaking voice.

It was too light.

It was kind of like when someone says they'll scratch your back, but then they just

kind of just lightly drag their hand across your back.

No, don't do that.

What is worse than that?

You know what's worse than that?

Is when those blankets that when your heel is like your heel's a little dry and it rubs across those like woolly blankets or like gets caught on a cuticle like you're a fucking goat.

Like

you're so

not,

you're so disgusting that like blankets.

Here's how long it's been since you fucking taken care of yourself.

Hey, Miss Havisham, why don't you fucking soak these feet?

Yeah, that.

You know what's worse?

What?

When a guy puts his head on your shoulder.

Oh, what?

Are you serious?

Don't you, isn't that the grossest thing of all time?

I don't understand that one.

I don't know.

I just hate it.

Wow, that was so amazing.

I really thought you were going to be with me on that one.

I don't understand, but I don't, no, I don't get it.

I don't know.

It's like to be cute or something.

Where it's like, can you not be precious?

Like a guy doing that is like well you because you also like a masculine dude who takes care of you and a guy who fucking puts his head on your stupid shoulder is like

I mean it's just a little like

they might as well also kick their outside leg up when they kiss you

and like pull their skirt out a little bit.

What the hell?

I'm fine with that.

But you know, it's even grosser when you don't have a garbage disposal and you have to take the food out of the fucking, the wet food, out of the drain of the sink.

I don't know what you're talking about.

That's how it feels to be abandoned.

No, it just made me like,

wait, did you have to do that by hand and then throw it in the garbage?

Yes, and it makes me sick to my stomach.

How old is the food?

Days, weeks?

No, it's just like you just did the dishes.

Okay, but you don't have food from your mouth.

You're not a soaker, though, because I'll go ahead and I'll soak some dishes for a good two weeks.

Do you ever do that where you're like, I'm cleaning them by letting them sit in the sink with soapy water in them?

Yeah,

I'll put some cold water in a bowl of like yogurt, and that's never gonna be

or like cereal.

And it's like, it's still gonna get stuck to the bowl every time.

Yes.

Like put like a thing that we would yell in my house is put water in it.

It's like nobody.

Nobody knows.

We'd live in that house.

I lived there for 16 years and the dishwasher, the dishwasher never worked a single day that I lived there.

Where?

Not the other apartment.

In the house I grew up in.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So you always had to do everything by hand.

Yeah.

And so when people would almost willfully, ignorantly leave a bowl of cereal in the sink,

knowing full well it was just going to then be cemented onto the side of that floor.

Right.

And you'd get yelled at and have to do it.

Yeah.

And then you'd have to take your fucking hand and take all the wet food out.

Wait, you have a garbage disposal now, don't you?

Now I do, yeah.

Like that's probably.

Yeah, now I do do now.

You must run that thing all day long.

Love it.

Just for no reason.

On all day.

Just creating kind of a nice white noise in the background.

So comforting.

You know what I hate?

Tell me.

Is when you're like taking a shower and you're just like, oh, it's so great to get clean.

And you look down, there's like straight up black mold in your shower.

Something like where you, you, the thing of like, you don't notice how filthy you are until you look at one thing and then you're like, oh my God.

Yeah.

That's not like grout.

That's not black grout.

The grout is white.

If someone else saw this who was a clean person, yes.

Well, right now in my shower, I hope you didn't see that when you just peed, is that like there's leg shavings everywhere.

Cause I just now, like, this is the first time I've had a white shower.

Yep.

Cause our last one was like gray and pink, like vintage gray and pink.

Sure.

And you can't see that shit on gray.

No.

But now it's all white.

Now you have to look at your own body.

Leg shavings.

Offerings.

I wonder if Vince notices this too.

I mean, he must be into it.

My sister, when she came down, because she is a super clean type A type person and I am not.

My sister got crazy bummed because the, I have that, um, the drain in my bathtub.

Where your hair gets caught in it?

It gets caught.

There's no like secondary screen.

I'd be able to find one because it's just, there isn't one.

Yeah.

So it's always backing up.

And my sister was so bummed at the amount of water because it was like.

No, I get it.

Yeah.

It's

just standing water.

You're right.

That is gross, but I've never noticed it's just how it is.

Like standing water.

Standing water.

I don't like that either.

Well, because then it is gross.

It's gross.

And then the leg shavings are like getting attached to your ankles.

That's right.

And also they stay when the rest of it drains because it drains so slow.

Yeah.

Then it creates its own kind of like, it looks like a map, like a topological map of a river basin.

Look at yourself.

Can I bring this back around?

Sure.

However,

it does make your feet nice and soft when they're soaking in the water there.

It sure does.

And then they won't rub on a blanket and scrape like shit.

Scrape, scrape.

Anyways, that's been my favorite murder.

Can you imagine someone who's listening to me for the first time?

They're like, what the fuck?

They're just like,

I saw this.

I came in here for decapitated heads.

This was on a murder list, and it certainly is no murder.

This is my favorite murder.

Really quick, one time my dad said to me, he came down to visit me, and then my, like the thing broke in my toilet.

He had to go in and fix the stopper or whatever it is.

No, I hate that.

And while we were standing in there, he goes, hey, why don't you spend some quiet Sunday cleaning behind this toilet?

Holy shit.

And the level of

total disgust that he said it with, I think of it every time I'm in the bathroom.

That That is an extra level of

being condescending.

He couldn't just say, hey, you should clean the back of your toilet.

Oh, no, it always has to be like a one-man show in our family.

Take a spending time.

Take a quiet spend some quiet Sunday

cleaning behind this toilet.

I don't know, Dad, because I'm busy going to therapy to get over you.

Or maybe because I just party.

Yeah, I'm just because I have a fucking life.

I like love, I love to be outside where the toilet isn't.

Yeah, because I have friends.

I don't like the toilet as much as you you do.

What am I saying now?

Because it's not as, because you know what's important to me, dad?

Living my life.

Living my life.

And if that means having a filthy toilet, so be it.

So be it.

You know whose problem that isn't?

Mine.

Mine.

Welcome to my favorite murder.

It's a murder podcast for murder, murder aficionados.

Only murder.

People run to murder.

So much murder and

crime.

God, we're all about it.

Justice.

Oh, that's us.

Totally.

America.

America.

That's Karen Kilgareth.

That's Georgia Hardstark.

Hi.

We're here to host this show.

Sometimes we talk about

personal stuff.

We do.

Totally.

I don't know if you've.

Was that even personal?

That was just like

every day.

I met a guy today who works in a morgue.

He's going to work in a morgue and is going to morgue person school.

Yes.

Where?

We went to lunch today and I got so excited.

I had this incredible therapy appointment that like made life sunnier.

Then I go to this, to the restaurant that we were going to meet at.

It's Jones on 3rd.

It's not like we go there every day.

It doesn't matter.

It's great.

Everybody goes there.

It's a great place to eat in Studio City.

Well, the guy is ringing me up for my coffee was like, how's your day going?

And I'm like, good, thanks.

How's yours?

And he's like, great.

I had a job interview.

I'm like, oh, geez, this fucking guy is talking to me now.

I'm like, oh, you know, like being polite, oh, what was it for?

And then he was like, oh, at the LA County Morgue.

And I was like, what?

What the fuck?

Do you think he knew?

No.

Oh,

I love that so much.

He just told, like, he didn't know how I would react.

And of course, I grabbed him by the arm.

Did you really ask across the counter?

Oh, my God.

Tell me everything.

And he was like, oh, you know, blah, blah, blah.

I'm going to school to be a mortuary.

something like that.

And exactly like that.

And I was like, that's amazing.

You're in the right.

LA is going to be incredible.

And he's like, I know the murder in the right place.

Well, I said, I said, this is, LA is going to be a great place to do that.

He said, I know the murder count just keeps going up.

That's right.

She said that.

And then I turn around and this girl came up to me and was like, hi, I really like the podcast.

This is weird.

My grandfather is a serial killer.

No.

Literally moments later.

Okay, that's when I walked in.

Yeah.

Okay, so I have the bad habit of my sunglasses are also prescription.

So when I come in from outside, my sunglasses are always on my head, which means I can't see.

I always forget that you can't see anything.

Yeah, I can't see.

Well, like, I can't see past like a couple feet in front of me.

So, like, and it helps me because walking into a place like that, Jones on Third is very like CNB scene type of place.

And I always get real insecure, whatever.

So, I'm like, oh, good, better that I don't have my glasses on, except for reading menus and seeing where George is sitting and all the things that actually involve meeting someone.

I saw you, but I was in the middle of this discussion with this girl, Anna.

But also, I didn't realize, like, I wouldn't, I thought you'd be sitting by yourself.

So when I, when I, when this kind of one blurry figure waved an arm, I was like, what the hell is going on that I have to go over here now?

And I walk up and Georgia is in full-on, like, kind of don't interrupt us conversation.

No, what I was saying is, don't tell Karen, don't tell Karen, don't tell Karen.

When she walks up to you, don't tell Karen.

Yeah.

So wait, you're going to tell me right now?

Yeah, he was a fucking serial killer.

He's in prison.

He was like the sheriff in Bakersfield and he was killing sex workers.

No.

She didn't know till she was older.

And then she saw an episode of like forensic files and was like, That's my grandfather.

Like, she always knew he was in prison, but didn't know what the deal was.

Hold on, I know.

Was that in like the 80s or 90s?

She was like 11, I guess, and she looked in her early 20s.

Yeah, she was pretty young.

Yeah, that is so intense.

I know.

So, I was like, This is Anna.

Bye.

Bye, Anna.

I'm like, Yeah,

get out of Anna.

I can't keep a secret.

I'm like, not good at that.

So, I didn't want to be like,

That's so good.

Her name is Nice Goats on Twitter.

Nice Goats.

His name is David Keith Rogers.

He's, and she said her grandmother wrote him a letter every single day, called him every Sunday, despite the fact that he was a serial killer.

Denial.

Denial.

That's some serious denial.

She's like, that's not the man I married.

No.

Well, talk about living a double life.

He's, he's the sheriff.

And he's, that is a nightmare.

That's, that's like, that's a true detective

season.

All of them.

Never

because it's never going to happen.

Um, can I can I say one other thing?

Yes, that I love.

Yes.

Um, I'm listening to another new podcast that I finished within a couple days, as I do, called In the Dark, the Jacob Wetterling one.

Oh, no, I haven't, I haven't heard it.

Well, I didn't, I was like, Jacob Wetterling, everyone knows what happened with him.

He's a kid who got kidnapped, you know, in Minnesota in the 80s, whatever.

And so I was like, I'll just listen to an episode.

It is fucking enthralling.

It is one of the best fucking investigative journalist dick podcasty things I've ever listened to.

I got to listen to it.

It's incredible.

And it's not about Jacob Wetterling.

It's about everything that went wrong.

It's like, it is a fucking hard look at law enforcement and how they mishandled.

the entire fucking case and how it fueled stranger danger and the sex offender registries and is that the right thing to do and like it's and then they just solve the case like the week before they were gonna put the podcast out.

Whoa, so they like tie all this shit into it.

Wow, oh, I gotta listen to that.

Madeline Baron is the host.

I love that it's all these fucking badass women who are hosting these incredible investigative journalism

in the dark, it's called in the dark, in the dark.

Ugh,

I could not stop listening to it.

Oh, I love that.

I actually just thought of this too because I just watched a um, if nobody, if you're not watching Vanity Fair Confidential, which is a series

on a place?

What?

Which part do you not know?

I'm just trying to think of where it is, but it might be Investigation Discovery or something.

It doesn't matter.

You can just put it in.

But it's, they have, they basically go over stories that have been in Vanity Fair, which is a magazine that's existed for like 70 plus years, maybe longer.

It does great article, great

investigative journalism.

Yeah.

And the one that I watched yesterday was about this couple, which was basically about satanic panic and that weird thing that happened in the 80s, where all of a sudden it was like at the McMartin

preschool case.

And then there was this other one that happened to these people in Austin, Texas, and they just got out of jail.

And they still haven't been exonerated.

Are you fucking kidding me?

They were just released of like the...

It's basically what you were just talking about, where back then when they knew nothing about how leading,

how much you could screw up an interview with a four-year-old or a three-year-old, how easy it is to get that child to say exactly what you want them to say.

Totally.

And that's how all those things exploded.

That's why it happened all at the same time.

That's amazing.

That shit, that is what fucking happens in this podcast.

And it is incredible how it's so terrifying.

Like, I have to listen to a positive book now because I'm so fucked up over it.

Yeah.

Oh, I got to listen to that.

And Vanity Fair Confidential, what's cool is that they take those articles and they interview, like the main narrator interviewer guy is the person is the person who wrote that article.

Yes, I love that.

And then other than the police that were there and the other family members and stuff, they've been the last couple that I've watched have been so good.

It's just like, it's a really well-done series.

I haven't watched it in a while.

I'm going to check it out.

Yeah, it's good.

Cool.

Also, did you see the thing someone tweeted at us, or it was somewhere like, I think it was on our Facebook about the windshield wiper shirt

trick?

Yes.

Do you think that's true probably I mean it could have like its sources in some once yeah true thing but I like the idea that people um spread that around me too because I think it's that thing of just like eyes open eyes open and don't like so basically what it was is there is a picture a um I think it was either on Instagram or Twitter or whatever, but it's like a girl, there's a shirt wrapped around her windshield wiper, and then when she gets out to take it off, there's people there that are like to grab her because she's out of her car.

Right.

They get, you get in your car at night.

You're being very careful in this built in this structure.

And then, oh shit, there's something on my windshield.

I better get out and take it off.

Yeah.

And then that's like, that's when your guard is down.

Yes.

So it's just the idea.

And that thing spread like wildfire.

Yeah.

I saw that on a couple different places.

Yeah.

I was like, this sounds, this sounds like, you know, and his hook was in the back of, was in the car or whatever, the back door.

But it is, yeah, it is a good kind of reminder to pay attention.

Yes, it only takes one thing like that.

And also, you have to think,

if you're like, you should think of your car as like the safe zone.

So, like, once you're in there and you've locked that door, you're good to go.

So, if you can drive with a shirt on your windshield wiper, get the fuck out of there.

And that's what the girl said she did is she fucking knew something was wrong.

She saw a car idling, supposedly, you know, and then so she fucking drove away.

And when she was alone and safe, she fucking got out and pulled the thing off.

She's like, it didn't make sense that it was wrapped around my windshield right yeah it doesn't because it's not like oh it dropped from you know it glue onto my windshield or whatever it's if it's wrapped she was basically taking her context clues and going this is a red flag situation betcha this fiction fictitious character is a murderino

bet she is yeah

um

what else i mean what do we do we have anything to report back from and i would would just say this, because we haven't recorded since our tour, right?

Right.

Last episode was our,

where were we?

Our Oakland show.

The last episode we put on this podcast was the Oakland show.

This podcast, this one right now, was Live Oakland.

Yeah.

After Live Oakland, we met a bunch of great people.

And the first person we met was a girl who made us some amazing stuff.

I don't have her card or anything, but did you see in that bag?

And I'm not sure if you went through it.

So I got a tote bag that said, My dogs are fiercely private.

Oh, and she got me a bag that had a fucking adorable Siamese cat on it.

Yes.

That I'm totally using all the time now.

Yep.

And also,

I think handmade.

I don't know if she bought them or she designed them herself,

but I feel like she made them.

The barbed notebook.

Did you get a barbed notebook?

Yes.

Yes.

I think that's her drawing.

That is amazing.

So we just want, we had a fun conversation with you.

She was very excited.

And

we just wanted to say it was just as fun for us to meet you as

it was for you to meet us because she was,

she was, she was very sweet and very excited.

Everyone's been, we're so lucky.

Yes.

We get lots of nice presents and it's funny.

And also in Oakland,

most of my family was there.

My cousin Stevie, who's basically like my older brother,

who beat me up my whole childhood and then became a super cool friend, and now is basically like my sister.

And my sister's family and his family like do everything together.

And it's really awesome because that's the way we all grew up together.

It's like the next generation.

I heard the rumor that he was crying during our show because he was so proud and like blown away.

Like basically, all of my family was like, oh, we had no idea that this is what you were doing.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

So it was super fun.

Well, Marty fucking Hardstark is going to be at our beacon, our New York Beacon show this fucking weekend, and I have no idea how he's going to react.

Please, New York, help us impress Marty Hardstark.

He needs to understand that his daughter has done a good job.

You'll know him by the fact that he's the only grown man alone there.

That's not true.

When we were in Seattle, remember the guy that made us the macarones?

Oh, yeah.

He like had taken Steven, he had taken a cooking class, he had made macarons that had, they were pink with red blood spatter on them, put them in a Tupperware and brought them to the show.

Yeah, and we knew they weren't poisonous because a girl in line behind us, him, had eaten them.

She was like, They were great.

And I'm like, How do you feel?

Are you feeling okay?

I'm fine.

You're like our tester.

I love macarons.

And I got Ted Bundy cookies.

Oh my God.

Oh, shit.

Wow.

I just said the wrong word.

Oh, Jesus.

Did you see that?

Elvis just came out of his little cat house.

Okay.

Because I said the word

cookie.

Holy shit.

He's going to have to get one early.

He is a monster.

We've made a monster.

Sawed House Bakery in Seattle are the ones that made us.

I tweeted those.

Yeah, they're on my favorite murder Instagram.

Unbelievable Ted Bundy.

And I would just like to point out the fact that

it turns into a thing where it looks like, oh, we love Ted Bundy.

In no way, it's like it's the story we're telling.

And it's

a good time.

I'm not saying it to you.

I'm just saying in general.

When on the podcast, people are like, it sounds like we're cheering.

It's not about Ped Bundy.

It's the fascination of the story.

And yeah, and the crime.

And

the fact that that exists.

And the icing.

And the fucking.

That was an amazing cookie.

It was like a brown sugar cookie.

It was crazy.

It was really good.

It was a beautiful art.

And the shape of

Washington, probably, because we were in Seattle.

It was the shape of Washington.

We are the best people.

We are the best people.

Can I talk about how I took a bite out of it to take a photo and make it seem obvious that it was a cookie?

And then I said,

look, I took a bite out of crime.

And then I fucking laughed my ass off at my own fucking stupid joke.

God, it gets lonely in that dressing room.

Ooh, it's quiet.

We don't have groupies.

And that's the place where I put on a record and it was some lame 80s, not lame, there was some good songs on it, but there was an 80s compilation.

And a stick sticks song came on, and it was dead silent.

Me and Georgia are like looking down at our murders or whatever, like getting ready.

And then she goes, Oh my god, what is this?

She's not even a good singer.

And I'm still laughing about that.

Very enjoyable.

I didn't know sticks.

Um, you look like it's your turn to go first.

Is it?

I don't know.

You were, you looked like you were ready.

And I was like, oh, she knows.

Well, then I'm interpreting from that.

You would like me to go first.

Oh, I don't care.

I don't want to fuck it up.

I bet Stephen knows.

Well, we fucked it up going live.

Oh, Stephen, do you know?

No.

Did you see him pick up his finger like he was trying to shush us?

He was.

No, I think it was.

No, I was like trying to remember.

And I was just like, shush.

And you brought the microphone up so perfectly.

Like, I'm about to tell you.

Well, I also was like, does it count from the Oakland episode or do you count the other live episodes in terms of who goes first?

Oh, no, then it's me because I think Oakland.

Oakland.

So it is me.

Okay.

All right.

Whatever.

Okay, we're back and we have the reason why we named the episode Some Quiet Sunday.

And it's just classic home gym.

I have to say, he's vicious.

He's a vicious, vicious man in many ways.

That's a cutting remark.

Why don't you spend some quiet Sunday cleaning behind your toilet?

I mean, look, we were all in the bathroom together.

And it was filthy.

It was gross.

And he's basically just saying, have some goddamn self-respect.

Yeah, but the way he's saying it is like, you have the time and you still live like this.

It's not like you are the busiest person.

You know, it's like,

it's an accusation while it's a suggestion.

Yeah.

It's like it's patriarchy in action.

I'm fucking sick of it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'll use your toothbrush, dad.

How about that?

It's also that kind of thing where like, I was raised with a level, that level of sarcasm.

You know, people love to say like, I'm fluent in sarcasm in their bios or whatever.

And it's like, I was raised with such a vicious level of sarcasm where it's like, he would have said something like that when I was seven years old.

That's just the interaction level of home Jim and his family.

There's a good kindness.

Yeah.

And also kind of like, hey, the bathroom isn't the cleanest, but behind this toilet is a nightmare.

Right.

How about you sit your life together, seven-year-old Karen, and fucking do something about it.

And it's interesting because it is seven-year-old Karen that is holding back 55-year-old Karen.

It's true.

It's so ironic that way.

They're the same person.

It's so annoying.

That thinking takes over.

Because it's who you are still.

All right.

Let's get

deep down.

Oh, we talked a little bit about the windshield wiper trick, which was basically when this, like the human trafficking panic began online on social media.

I just think that's kind of an interesting thing to look back on where it's like,

yeah, remember that where it's like, if you have this on your windshield wiper, but then it's like, there's tons of other examples that over the years we've all seen and reacted to.

And then it's like, after a while, it's like, it's a bigger problem if only they gave you that signal.

Also, but notes or flowers, I've heard too.

Have you?

Right.

Notes and flowers in your windshield get you to stop, get out of, especially flowers, get out of your car,

you know, stand in a vulnerable place.

I just, it does make sense to not do that.

Right.

So, I mean, don't do it anyway.

Don't accept flowers, even if someone's just handing them to you kindly, slap them out of their hand.

If they want you to listen to their DJ mixtape, don't do it.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't buy or borrow their DJ mixtape.

Yeah, that is abuse.

All right, let's get straight into it, shall we?

Sure.

You're first, let's listen to Karen's story about the Erickson twins.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

There's more to San Francisco with the Chronicle.

More to experience and to explore.

Knowing San Francisco is our passion.

Discover more at sfchronicle.com.

Hey, Oakland, California.

My favorite murder is back on tour.

Join us at the Paramount Theater on Thursday, October 2nd.

Don't wait.

The Friday, October 3rd show is already sold out.

Head to myfavoritemurder.com to buy tickets and your VIP package while supplies last.

Goodbye.

So, what happened at Chappaquiddic?

Well, it really depends on who you talk to.

There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and left a woman behind to drown.

Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

Every week, we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.

Listen to United States of Kennedys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

Well, this is,

now I'm afraid, because

I'm 99% positive you haven't done this murder.

But truly, as I was printing it up and leaving my house, I was like,

it's so familiar.

And I know that I've done research on it before, thinking I would do it before.

Well, I've had to think about looking up murders before, being like, have I done it before?

Not just you.

okay

so

i think

so you won't be mad if this is a repeat only if you do it better than i did

well i'm pretty sure you didn't but i know we've talked about it okay i'm excited and the reason that i wanted to do it is because i mentioned it the last the last

just pick the biggest one

sorry like in your face no problem the last uh

I think the last studio recording that we did when I talked about the Pepin Sisters, the French studio,

apartment.

Yes, this, this podcasting studio.

So it's another case of Falia Due, which is the shared psychosis.

And it's the story of Ursula and Sabina Erickson.

I have not done it, but we've talked about it.

Yes.

Fucking am excited about this.

Okay, good.

All right.

What a huge goddamn relief because I was truly like, I was like, I'm printing it.

I don't, this is what I've done.

Like, I can't go back from here.

That's like my trigger.

And then I'm like, this is over.

I can't believe you don't remember.

I was, I cried that episode.

Yeah, it meant a lot to me too.

Anyway.

All right.

Okay.

So

in that, sorry, if you didn't hear that episode, so a folio due is, is

In French, it translates as the madness of two, and it's a form of shared psychosis between two people who are extremely close.

The Papin sisters were an older and younger sister.

It is rumored that they were having a sexual relationship,

but they did work

for

a rumored-to-be very strict mistress who they killed so violently that it beats most of the crimes we talk about modern day.

It really, it doesn't, it doesn't fit with what

you know what I mean.

I'm not matching the punishment and all this.

Yes, it's, it's such extreme overkill that it's not so bizarre.

Totally.

So

this is a little bit different, but this I feel like is the much more famous version of this shared psychosis.

And it is

Ursula and Sabina Erickson.

So in May of 2008, two Swedish sisters who live in Ireland, who are in their late 30s, named Ursula and Sabina Erickson,

Twin sisters, that should be in there.

They are twin sisters and they live in County Cork and they've traveled to,

they're traveling to London,

but they've taken,

they're in Liverpool when this all goes down, taking the bus into London or they're right outside Liverpool, I guess.

So

When they first arrive in Liverpool or wherever they are nearby it, the first thing they do is they walk into the St.

Anne Street police station and quote unquote report concerns about Sabine's children.

So from the get-go of their like trip to London, there's shit going on.

They immediately go and start talking to the police.

Nothing comes of it.

Then they get on this bus, the National Express coach

into London.

After a little while on the bus, they tell the driver they don't feel well.

He pulls over to the roadside services

and they get off the bus.

When they try to get back on the bus, they're clutching these bags that they have with them in a way that makes the driver suspicious.

So he says, we need to look in your bags before you get back on the bus.

And they're like, no fucking way.

And they're so weird about not letting anybody look into their bags that the bus driver kicks them off the bus and leaves them there.

Fucking hero.

Oh, wait, that's kind of shitty.

Don't leave women on the side of the road.

Well, but, but I mean, like, so the second I hear this, I'm like, what is in those bags?

Totally.

I need to know what's in those bags immediately.

Oh, yes, I'm imagining lots.

Right.

So,

so

the gas station manager.

uh where they have stopped at these what they call services in england um is informed by this bus driver these two are acting weird and shady, and so I'm not letting them back on the bus.

So that gas station manager calls the police.

They come and talk to Ursula and Sabine, decide they're harmless, and leave.

So

now Ursula and Sabine are stranded by the M6, which is a freeway in England, and not the TV show MI6, which I thought I was thinking of the whole time

I first started researching this.

Love it.

Have you ever watched MI6?

Nope.

With Matthew McFadden, who is Mr.

Darcy,

Richard Armitage.

Anyway, none of it.

I'm sorry.

Good stuff.

Good stuff.

Good British procedural.

Good talk.

But there's an M6 and then there's an MI6.

They're not the same thing, Karen.

Okay,

so they're stranded.

And the next thing that they know is that there's CCTV footage of them walking down

the central part of of a freeway.

So they have run across.

The center median.

Yes.

They've run across the freeway.

So you can see the.

Here's the insane part of all this.

There is video footage of this entire incident.

I don't like it.

I've seen it and it's like whenever there's CC TV footage, I'm like, don't want to watch this.

Something awful is going to happen.

Yes, that's bad too.

But there was also basically a British version of cops, which was

called Motorway.

No,

yes,

Motorway Cops,

which was a reality show that they were filming when this happened.

So the entire thing is caught on an ENG crew footage.

Yes, like a TV show.

That's why there's so much, like, you can see all of it.

That's illegal.

It's super crazy.

Yeah, because did they sign waivers?

Totally.

There must be because they broke the law, they must

have to or something.

Sure.

So basically, here's what, or maybe they have different rules

of production.

All right.

Here's what happened.

They're in the central median and they run to cross it again.

Don't cross the fucking freeway.

Ursula gets across, but Sabina gets hit by a car.

So they call the highway agency traffic officers,

which I imagine is like the highway patrol.

Sure.

But I don't know, and I didn't look it up.

there i wrote this horrible thing uh

so when highway agency traffic officers what i can only imagine are the british highway patrol so british chips which in america are crisps but in england are french fries um

that's i love where you went with that that was expected so dumb so like fish and chips what if like fish and what if there was like a cop show that the cops were british and there was a guy named like andy Fish, and so it's like fish and chips.

Can someone please make a fucking

we'll be the chips?

So, Karen and I is a British detective that's come to Los Angeles, and then he needs the help of two girl podcasters.

Chips, we're the chips, though.

Oh, because we're British cops, we are.

Well, because we have, oh, no, no, we're chips, we're highway patrols, yeah, we're highway patrol, right?

Um, all right,

what

fish could be the band, fish, Fish.

The band fish.

Fish and chips.

Leads, cops, like they're undercover narc.

Yes.

And they go to their shows.

They narc on people at their own shows.

Yes.

They're pop cops.

Yeah.

Guys, here's the thing.

Oh, my God.

So

basically, the British Highway Patrol shows up with this British reality show called Motorway Cops.

Fuck you.

They're already recording it.

That's so shitty.

No, no, no.

They didn't know what the scenario was.

They showed up on the scene like, well, this is a day in the life of these cops.

Okay.

Yeah, it's like that.

Okay.

So,

so

as they, so the two twin women are standing on the side of the road talking to these cops.

And the, the guys that were, that were there first, on the scene first, are explaining to the British police who showed up with the camera crew.

They're like, okay, so here's what happened.

I guess they ran across the freeway.

We don't really know what they're doing.

One of them got hit, but she's okay.

And blah, blah, blah.

And they're explaining everything.

And the two women are standing there while the cops are talking to each other.

And then, as the camera's rolling, Ursula bolts out into

the freeway and immediately gets hit by a truck.

And it is

on

the truck is going 56 miles an hour.

It's on camera.

There's somebody that's kind of blocking it, so you don't see like the real awful part.

And to make it clear, she's not running trying to cross.

She's running to get hit by a car.

Well, there's no,

it's just like that fucked up hard in Bofinger where Eddie Murphy has to run across the freeway for the like special effect.

Do you remember that?

You don't.

Well, here's the thing.

It's not like Frogger where it's like one coming coming every couple of seconds.

It's like running into onto the five right now.

Like there's, there's no pause in the traffic.

No.

Right.

So she ran out onto a busy freeway intentionally.

Fuck.

And she does it.

And everybody's like, it's really upsetting because it's all the cops going, like, oh my God, or whatever.

And they're immediately on their things, calling for an ambulance, doing this.

And while they're doing that, and one of them runs out to stop traffic, whatever, while they do that then sabine runs out into the freeway fuck dude because they're so it it's the craziest thing to see because nobody of course once the one goes they're not there nobody goes oh make sure the other one doesn't go they all go holy shit call call an ambulance you would never yeah who would do that so

Ursula's legs, so

Sabine runs out in the freeway and immediately gets hit by a Volkswagen polo.

Those poor people driving those fucking cars.

Yes.

You've ruined their lives.

I mean, I'm sure.

The lorry driver, the truck driver that hit Ursula is on this.

You can see the video footage.

And it's the saddest thing because he just keeps going, she just run out in front of us.

That's not the accent, but it's something like that where he says us instead of me.

It's rough.

And he's just like kind of staring off like in total shock.

Oh my God.

But here's the thing.

So Ursula's legs, she has compound fractures in her legs.

The cop, I saw a special on it, and it's called like madness on the motorway or something like that.

But it's really good, but it's not as good as fish and chips.

It is no fish and chips.

Never.

She is down, and this is so upsetting because

her, she's bones are sticking out of her legs.

Uh-uh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Yeah, you're not going to get hit by a truck on the freeway and have it not be really gross and upsetting.

But meanwhile, she's down, right?

So the bottom half of her body is not moving and it's fucked up badly.

But the top half of her, they go and they put one of those tinfoil marathon blankets on her and they're like trying to talk to her.

It's basically like the ambulance is going to be here.

You're okay.

And she starts going, I know who you are.

I know who you are.

And they're like, just take it easy.

It's okay.

Oh, my God.

She says,

I recognize you.

I know you're not real.

Oh, my God.

And the police are just saying, it's okay, stay down.

She tries, she's trying to get up.

So it looks like a really hideous part of like walking dead, where like the zombie's been attacked from the back, but they're still dragging themselves.

Like she's trying to push herself up, but her legs aren't going to move.

And she's trying to like fight him.

She's spitting at him.

That was scary.

Yeah, she's freaking out.

So

her sister is, so that's Ursula.

Sabina is also on the ground and she looks like she's out, out.

And there, it's, there's a female cop next to her.

And I think the second person is a woman who is maybe a passerby in a car.

I'm not sure.

But they're both sitting there and they're like, she's got one of those tin foil blankets on her.

And she, and, and Sabine is just eyes closed out.

And then she comes to.

And she like almost like immediately gets up.

And they're like, no, no, no, don't move, don't move.

And she's clearly like dazed, but she starts saying, They're gonna steal your organs.

She's yelling that over to Ursula.

Holy balls!

They're gonna steal your organs.

And she, and then she, they're like, No, no, no, stay down.

And they're trying to hold her down.

And she starts yelling, Help, call the police.

And they're like, We are the police.

It's okay.

And they're, and so then they're thinking they're on drugs, but they must be on some kind of drug because now Sabine is up on her feet and she's trying to, like, she's like, like, like trying to get away and they're like you need to calm down it's okay she

jumps the rail

and runs into the other on the other side of the freeway you can kidding me i swear to god They thank God that wasn't as busy on that side.

And I think they may have stopped traffic.

Like traffic was totally stopped on this side where Ursula was

probably Lucky Lou slowing down and shit.

Probably.

And like maybe less traffic.

I'm not sure.

But anyway, she runs across.

This cop has to run after her.

And he's like, stop.

What are you doing?

Don't, you know, you're hurt.

You're hurt.

And she's like, and she basically turns, turns on him like she's going to fist fight him.

Oh, my God.

And she's like, and she's screaming, help call the police.

And they're like, we are the police.

Like, it's crazy.

So they, so basically, it eventually takes six policemen to subdue Sabine.

Oh, my God.

Six policemen.

to finally get her down and sedate like they shoot her up.

They meanwhile airlift Ursula out to the hospital.

She was spitting at them the whole, like, they were fighting the entire time.

And the cops that subdued Sabine said that she had superhuman strength, that both of them did.

So they're thinking they're on, probably on PCP or something, like, you know, the drugs associated with that were taught as a kid are like, yeah,

yeah, you could like lift a car, totally, do whatever you want.

Totally.

Which I just, the idea of whatever world that they were in, where they thought

what was what was happening because they still don't know to this day the logic behind, and there's no explanation.

Wait, I hope, I was hoping you'd get to the explanation.

Well, I'm just going to spoiler alert for you right now.

They have never explained it in court.

When she finally went to court, all she would say is no comment.

They have never explained any of it.

And there was no drugs in their system.

So, okay.

She gets,

they finally,

they finally, the six people get her down, sedate her.

She goes to the hospital and then goes directly into police custody in a place called Stoke on Trent.

So on May 19th, 2008,

she is released from court.

Sabina is released from court without a full psychiatric evaluation.

Great.

Having pleaded guilty to trespass on the motorway and hitting a police officer, which she decked that female police officer, she punched her right in the face to get away from her.

Um,

that's before she ran across for the third fucking time.

So, the court sentenced her to one day in custody, which

she had already served.

Um, so she leaves and she begins to wander the streets of Stoke or Kent, um,

trying to find her sister in the hospital and carrying her possessions in a clear plastic bag.

So, she's just kind of now out on the street.

Let her go, yeah.

So

she's that night, two local guys who are walking a dog see her, and

she comes up and is very friendly.

She's petting the dog.

They're all talking.

One of the men is

a 54-year-old man named Glenn Hollingshead, who is a self-employed welder.

He had been a paramedic and he was a former RAF worker.

The other man was his friend Peter Malloy.

And so they all start talking.

And even though she's friendly, Sabine is acting super weird.

So she does stuff like offers,

she's asking them if they know any directions for any good bed and breakfasts or any place to stay.

She offers them cigarettes and then takes them back while they're smoking them.

Like she's so he, so this guy, Glenn Hollingshead, can tell there's something wrong with her.

This is the part I, this is the part that I'm like, did we do this one?

Did we?

Stephen?

Well, this is the murder part.

Yeah.

So we must have talked about this.

I'm sure we've talked about it, but I don't know.

I don't think we have.

I'd be a bummer.

Well,

who cares?

You're talking, you're doing a great job.

Well, thanks.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

So

they go back to his house because he's like, something's wrong with this lady.

Yeah.

And she's just wandering out on the street.

So they go back to his house and she's basically saying, I need to find my sister.

She's in a hospital.

So they start.

I think they said she

they hang out that night, she was carrying multiple mobile phones and a laptop.

She was constantly looking out the window, she was super paranoid.

And um, Malloy assumed the friend assumes that she's run away from an abusive partner, the way she's acting.

So they're like, You can stay here, and she's like all bandaged up and shit.

Uh, right, after being released.

I don't, but I don't think when she was up and like basically trying to duke it out with this cop, she looked fine.

Having been hit by a car two times,

she seemed fine and didn't break any bones apparently because she wasn't like held at the hospital.

So, okay.

So, anyway,

when the friend leaves, he leaves at

shortly before midnight, and Sabina stays at the house.

So, the next morning, Hollingshead is calling local hospitals

to find Ursula to see where she is.

And

at, let's see, this would be 7.40 in the morning.

He goes outside to ask his neighbor for tea bags.

And the neighbor says, let me finish up what I'm doing and I'll come and bring him over.

And so

Glenn walks back into the house.

Oh, because he's washing his, the neighbor's washing his car.

So he's like, when I finish, I'll bring him over.

And then a minute.

After going inside, he staggers back outside the house and saying, saying to the neighbor, she stabbed me, and then collapses on the ground.

And when he had gone back into the house, Sabina had stabbed him five times with a kitchen knife and he died from his injuries there.

And she ran, and the neighbor calls 999, which is 911 in England.

Not that I had to tell you that.

Does this seem familiar?

No, I don't think we've done this one.

Okay.

Because it seems familiar to me, but I know I've watched

a full movie about this on YouTube.

You can, and we all can if you want to after this.

So essentially,

she goes out of this house with a hammer in her hand and is hitting herself in the head with the hammer.

No.

Uh-huh.

So

every once in a while, periodically, it says from Wikipedia.

So a passing motorist sees this, gets out of the car, and tries to grab the hammer away from her.

And while they're wrestling, Sabina pulls a roof tile out of

the

out of her pocket.

What the fuck?

You know, when you're wandering around town, like this looks and you just put some stuff in your pocket, she pulls it out and hits him in the head with it.

He's momentarily stunned, and she runs away.

Oh my god.

But at this point, the paramedics from the 999 call have shown up and they see her and they chase her.

And they end up

pursuing her to Heron Cross, where she jumps off a 40-foot bridge onto the A50, which is another

freeway or highway.

I mean, they love it.

They love freeways and highways.

So in that fall, she does break bones.

So she is not superhuman.

And she's taken to the hospital.

And then when she's recovering there, she is put under arrest.

And she's later discharged and then charged with murder.

And

so she goes to trial.

They hold her, and this is the part that drives me crazy.

She was supposed to go, she's charged with murder on September, in September of 2008, the day she's discharged from the hospital.

And the trial is scheduled for February of 2009,

but they can't find her medical records from Sweden.

So

the

trial is then pushed to September of 2009.

So basically, these, both of these sisters are kind of these mysteries.

They can't find anything about them.

They can't figure out what the deal is on them, which I think is like so fascinating.

Obviously,

there's mental illness taking place anyway.

There's something really serious going on.

Reality somehow.

Yeah.

So she pleads guilty to manslaughter with diminished responsibility, but at no point during her interrogation or during the trial does she explain her actions.

She only says no comment to extensive police questioning.

Jesus.

Both the prosecution and defense say that she was insane at the time of the killing,

but sane during her trial.

And the defense counsel claims that Sabine is the secondary sufferer of Fali Adu and that Ursula was the like the primary, um,

like the out basically the alpha in the situation, right?

Which is easy to say, yeah, now that she's off with her crushed legs, and it doesn't diminish your responsibility for what you've done.

Well, because Ursula had nothing to do with that stabbing, right?

She wasn't there for it, so it's kind of like it's trying to say, well, she's the one that's just going along with everything, it's like, yeah, but Ursula wasn't there to tell her to do that, and obviously, way more is going on if that was her, if that was her behavior when she was by herself oh my god i want to know i want to know all of it um anyway she's sentenced to five years in prison five years um she'd already spent 439 days in custody

um so she was she ended up being eligible for a release in 2011.

um

so they The judge says that she has a low level of culpability for her actions.

But basically that the killing was based on mental illness.

She thought she was in danger.

They thought they were in danger the whole time.

They didn't know where they were, when they were on the freeway, when all that stuff was taking place.

They clearly had a break from reality and had some kind of a psychotic break because they were yelling at the police,

call the police.

And the police were repeatedly yelling back to them, we are the police.

And that just wasn't, didn't seem to be breaking through in any way.

And so I don't think there's no explanation, but it didn't seem like that changed in any significant way.

By the time Glenn Hollings had brought her into his apartment, poor guy.

Yeah, I mean, she was like, that's that kind of thing, though, of like, what are you doing?

Like, what are you doing?

This is like, this is not a healthy person

or an okay person.

I mean, he was, he was trying to be a good guy, is what he was doing.

But, but there's a lot of danger in that, of like, just taking in a mentally ill person from the street is

a dangerous thing, even if it's a woman.

Yeah.

What was I going to ask?

So, did they get out?

Are she out?

Yes, she was paroled.

And we don't know.

Hold on.

Yeah.

Yeah, she got out.

Where is she now?

I don't know.

I'm scared.

I'm scared now.

The and the brother of

Glenn

Holling's head, the guy that got stabbed,

Hollyn's head,

basically said that he

doesn't blame her because he clearly understands that she was her mental state.

She probably thought that was something she needed to do.

But she blamed, he blames that system that just released her into the street with a plastic bag, going like, well, good luck.

You clearly ran across the freeway three times, but now you're just on your own.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Without the person you've been with.

So it's like, we don't know if you,

oh my God.

But so here's the thing that I want to know.

And like, let's just put aside, so because there weren't drugs in their system.

So all those, all their theories of like they're on PCP or this, none of that proved out.

And they,

I think that the reason it's vague here, and

hopefully there's other people that know the details and we would love to hear that.

I would love to hear them.

But like.

um the idea that they're not they're not on drugs clearly there's some kind of a psychosis taking place but not so much that they then get put into any kind of, like that, that Sabine gets put into any kind of a mental hospital.

It should have been.

What is it?

51.50 when they can hold you for being crazy for something.

And like, what more do you need than people running across the freeway three times?

Yeah, you're not hurt.

Get out of here.

Right.

It doesn't, it's very strange.

It doesn't make a ton of sense.

But for me, I want to know.

So

one of the things they said they were carrying were a whole bunch of cell phones in those bags that that they didn't want people to see.

But the idea that they thought people wanted to take their organs, like they thought they were being chased.

They thought they needed a bunch of cell phones.

They couldn't show them to people.

They, they like

that idea, it's like a you know, paranoid delusion or whatever.

But like, what did they, what was the world that they were in?

I would just be so fascinated to know the details of what they thought was happening.

It's one of those like mysteries of like, you know, like Tamman shoot that, that guy, you know, that I,

it's like, will we ever know?

I really want to know.

Maybe the answer someday will be like the girls, the

girls in Austin who got killed at the

yogurt shop murders.

Like, I want to know so bad.

Yeah.

We might never know, which is so frustrating.

I feel like I, I,

I feel like I should have done like more back-end research, but for me, the, um,

the fascinating part is that all, i mean it's the stabbing is an insane like ending totally and so terrible and so incredibly tragic but like what was happening on that freeway is so crazy yeah and that to me i got all caught up in that and the video i mean watching that video was just watched it i did because it's like it was the whole story totally i understand it's crazy though it doesn't it's like your mind can't comprehend it because it's a person running into traps no i can't Yeah.

It's crazy.

Wow.

Really, really crazy.

I want to know also if Ursula being separate from, if because they were separated, if anybody like snapped out of it and then was like, oh, this is, we were, we were.

I mean, but you can't blame it on that.

You can't like, it's not real.

The fucking.

like the connection that they had that made them do this.

You know what I mean?

Like they're just both crazy.

Right.

But it's real.

I'm sorry.

they're both mentally ill yes but separately they're mentally ill it's not like one is causing the other one

right although that's kind of like the what they say happens yes because the other um

the gibbon sisters who were those right who were those twins who lived in wales and they grew up they were like some of the only black people in wales so they grew up and they were terribly um bullied and abused so they didn't talk to anybody but each other and they had a secret language

that

so this basically it's the same thing.

Yeah, they had a thing where, when they were in jail, because they started lighting fires, so they went to jail, they went to a mental hospital because they didn't talk to anybody and they only talked to each other.

But they would do a thing where they would find one

standing frozen in a certain pose in her cell, and they would go to the other cell on the other side of the jail, and she would be standing in the exact same pose.

Oh my fucking God!

Oh my god, so there is something to like the mental connection of twins i know there's something there because like how did that happen yeah unless it was like oh every day we do this thing right at this time maybe i don't know or is that you know someone um

exaggerating at the mental hospital told someone that and that got a little bigger and bigger and

like it it's its own creepy pasta yeah well because but every reporter there was a reporter that went and spent time with them who said they were just incredibly eerie, you know, it's like two people that don't feel the need to talk who just sit there that also are like, you know, twins.

And one of them finally said to that reporter, the only way I'm getting out of here is if one of us dies.

And then one did die of an expanded heart.

something like kind of for no reason like in a way where it's just one died and then the other got out and she lived a normal life right

or at least she's got out and is living her life outside a mental hospital.

If you could be a twin, would you be a twin?

Ooh, I just didn't want to be when I was a kid.

You what?

I wanted to be when I was a kid.

I mean, I think it would be fun.

It would, I bet it would be hard to like look at yourself all the time.

Part of me was just like, I kind of want to know what I look like objectively.

You know what I mean?

Yes.

Do you ever like look at photos and be like, okay, if I saw that girl, what would I think?

I don't know.

I mean,

the funny thing to me is that I can take such insanely bad pictures and I can take really good pictures.

And then it's like, well, what is the, I guess it's just a happy medium and that's how it is with everybody.

It's so weird that, yeah.

Am I going to get, yeah,

everything.

So, what if you and I start fucking, what is it called?

Morphing into each other?

Follying.

Folly a doing?

Yes.

Let's do that on the road.

Okay.

That'd be kind of fun.

That'd be fun.

It'd be fun to just, oh, run and just get your, yeah.

Like, can you make make my decisions for me, please?

I'm done making decisions.

Yeah.

My decision is to pull someone's eyes out.

Sorry.

Sorry.

My decision is to run into the freeway.

All right.

Okay, we're back.

And that was a classic one that you covered.

I remember that one.

I always have.

Any updates?

Of course not.

No updates, no answers.

No one's ever going to tell us what the fuck was going on.

But I will say, Sabina Erickson was released on parole in 2011.

She reportedly returned to Sweden.

Her current whereabouts remain unknown.

Her sister, Ursula, recovered from her injuries and moved to Washington state, where she continues to live.

The case still fascinates true crime audiences.

Women in Crime covered the sisters in 2024 and a podcast called Necronomapod in 2025.

So people, I mean, this is the kind of like, listen to this, this really happened.

But I think it's the reason it's like that is because it just is like, no one can explain it.

No, totally.

It's a fascinating mystery.

All right.

Well, since we have no answers for you, and apparently you don't have them for us either, because we would have heard by now,

we're just going to go into George's story about Mel Ignitow.

So what happened at Chappaquitic?

Well, it really depends on who you talk to.

There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and left a woman behind to drown.

Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

Every week, we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.

Listen to United States of Kennedys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.

I'm Danielle Robet and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off.

Each week, I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile.

Listen to bookmarks by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app.

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I love when I like think of a murder.

Like when I'm like, what murder should I do?

And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I've fucking been fascinated by this one for years.

I'm going to do it.

You know, when it's like not one you just randomly find.

Yep.

So

Mel Ignato is a 50-year-old man.

He's a divorced father of three grown kids.

And Brenda Sue Schaefer is 36.

She's a medical assistant.

And they had been in a relationship for two years

and engaged.

And then in 1988, Schaefer decides to break it off.

And she tells a friend that Mel was sexually abusive.

And by all accounts, everyone says he's controlling and he's a sadistic motherfucker is what I wrote.

So Brenda goes missing after deciding to break it off with Mel.

And her car is found on the highway real close to her home, close enough that if it had broken down, she could have walked home.

It had been broken into, the radio stolen.

Family and police, though, quickly suspect Mel in the disappearance.

But they're unable to locate any any witnesses or physical evidence linking him,

and they can't find Brenda, her body.

So

they interview him to clear his name, so he can clear his name by testifying before a grand jury.

And randomly he mentions the name of his ex-girlfriend of 10 years, Marianne Shore.

which randomly brings her into the investigation for the first time.

They hadn't even known it, like she wasn't on the radar at all.

So the police interview Marianne, and eventually she confesses to helping plan the murder of Brenda.

And of course, out of that, she gets a plea bargain that she'll only get

charged with tampering with evidence.

So Marianne tells police that Mel had convinced her to help him plan and carry out Brenda's murder.

They had spent several weeks making extensive preparations for Brenda's murder, including, quote, scream testing Marianne's house

and digging a grave in the woods behind her house.

Mel even keeps a checklist of the things he was going to do to Brenda on the night he killed her.

And these photos of her, you know, I watched a couple episodes of all these shows and he looks like, you know, he's 50 years old.

He looks like a dad.

He looks like a normal dude, normal 80s dad.

She's 36 and she's this pretty you know sweet looking girl a fucking sweet honesty ad you know and it's his girlfriend they're engaged and they were together for two years she had been divorced and he's kind of like showering her with gifts and

and it just gets weirder and weirder though and and her family says in the beginning like we just didn't understand why she was with him at all and didn't trust him from the beginning but i think you know he was a sociopath so he was fucking charming at first.

Yeah.

He made her feel special.

Right.

So on September 23rd, 1988, Marianne tells the police that Mel lures Brenda to the house under the guise of her returning some jewelry that had belonged to Mel, that I think he must have bought her.

And when Brenda gets in the house, Mel pulls a gun and locks the door.

And Marianne is there this whole time.

He forces her to strip, then blindfolds, gags, and binds binds her.

And he uses the list of all the things he was going to do to her and proceeds to go down the list doing each of them.

He ties her to a coffee table and he rapes, sodomizes, and beats her all the while having Marianne take photos of what's going on.

What the fuck?

What in the fuck?

This is someone you were with for two years.

You have grown children.

Like, who the fuck?

Yeah.

let's see.

Marianne says she never joined in, she just took photos.

Oh, oh, oh, okay, Marianne.

Yeah, everything's fine then.

Okay, you just took the photos of a vicious attack.

He, then it's even grosser.

It's even grosser.

Yeah.

How?

Well, it's not, it's not gross.

I can see that, you know, like you're standing by taking photos.

Get out, lady.

I can't even watch a fucking bar fight.

Like, I love a bar fight.

Do you?

I love it.

I love it.

What about it?

I just like, it's a very, it's like watching a tension.

It's from going to college in Sacramento.

They happened all the time.

Basically, bars would clear out and then people would just stand around watching people fight until the cops came.

And then girls would like cry and like, you know, drunk girls crying.

You'd be like, if you just be quiet, it'll be over faster and then we'll all go home.

It's my favorite.

It's just like male, it's, it's, you know, 80s male expression.

They're just like, I'm not a football player, and I'm not a frat boy.

I don't know what to do.

I'm not sure.

I'm all pent up with my fucking testosterone and anger.

Me and my feeling, I have all these feelings, and I'm not allowed to have them.

And I listen to a lot of Boston, so here I'm going to punch you right in the face.

Um, I saw a couple of vicious fights before, so like I feel like I have this aversion to them because they were too awful.

Yeah,

I don't like, I can't, I can't look.

I love it, that's amazing.

I love that.

I love that.

Anyways, back to the horror.

Okay.

She's taking photos, says she never joins in.

He then takes, Mel then takes Brenda back to the back bedroom and kills her by putting a rag soaked in chloroform over her mouth until she dies.

Poor fucking baby.

And then Marianne helps Mel cover up the murder by including burying Brenda in a hole they dug behind the house.

So they bury her.

Marianne.

So after her admission, 14 months after Brenda's disappearance, Marianne leads the investigators to the grave site.

They find Brenda's badly decomposed body buried there.

Of course, there's no DNA evidence since the body had been decomposed, but that's in 1988.

You know what I mean?

Like, I feel like now they could have, 14 months isn't that long to be buried, right?

Oh, I feel like these days they could get it.

in so many ways.

Totally.

Yeah.

But back then it was like, yeah, yeah.

Did a totally different story.

Yes.

So

the investigators convinced Marianne to wear a wire to talk to Mel and she tells them the FBI is hounding her.

She's afraid the property behind her house is going to be sold and developed.

And he's on the tape berating her for letting the FBI, quote, rattle her and told her that he didn't care if they dug up the whole property because, quote, that place we dug is not shallow.

So based on this recording, as well as a little physical evidence from his home, prosecutors charge Mel Ignato of Ignato with the murder in 1991.

And then,

okay, let's see.

So,

during one of the recorded conversations,

when Mel says the place we dug is not shallow, he says, besides that one area right by where that site is, does not have any trees by it,

the defense attorney convinced the jury that Mel said safe and not sight.

And

so it led the jurors to conclude that the discussion involved burying a safe, not a body.

So instead of sight, they thought it would,

they convinced the jury that it was safe.

Like they fucking buried a safe.

But didn't Marianne already tell them everything they needed to know?

Well,

so

Marianne testifies.

She's a star witness, but she dresses like skimpy, laughs the whole time during her testimony.

And they argue, the defense argues that Marianne killed Brenda, not Mel.

And so him saying that thing about a safe doesn't implicate him in the murder.

Whoa.

Yeah.

So, and she had been convicted of fraud before, and so her credibility is totally under undermined, undermounded, undermined.

Undermined?

Undermined.

In the eyes.

Undermound.

That was a joke.

I knew it wasn't that.

Steven, don't write that down.

Stephen, I see you writing that down.

Undermound.

Undermound.

That's my new word.

Oh, I wrote her, all of which undermines her credibility in the eyes of the stupid idiot jury.

Then I said, The stupid idiot jury found Malignato not guilty on all seven counts.

Whoa.

Yep.

Then the judge, Martin Johnstone, he's so embarrassed by the verdict that he writes a letter of apology to the Schaefer family saying,

if it was just me and not a jury, I would have fucking put this guy away forever, which is like pretty amazing.

Yeah.

And then an interesting random fact.

So it was, this was, take, took place like December 21st or so.

And it turns out that when a trial, the closer a trial takes place to Christmas, juries are more likely to acquit.

That makes sense.

It's not fucked up.

Yeah.

Is it because they want to get the fuck out of trial or is it because they have like they have feelings of you know when you get all fuzzy and cozy during the holidays and you're like love and family and stuff yeah i bet it's like i bet it's a bit of both depending on the personality but it's like normally where you wouldn't have either at play yeah you have now both at play right so whether it's the person that's like but i just watched this hallmark movie about everyone giving cheese

yeah

fuck

and like in the fucking courtroom there's like a Christmas tree in the corner and they're like people are looking over there like I've got to go shopping now they bake bake cookies so it just smells nice immediate mistrial uh

they just no they just spray air freshener they smell like baked cookies spray cinnamon glade don't you love it okay innocent

okay so six months later okay then so he's out this motherfucker six months later he sells his house because he needs funds to pay for his legal bills and the house is like he's not a fucking trashy person.

He has a beautiful house.

He looks like a normal guy.

I argue he is a trashy person.

I mean, clearly.

You know what I mean?

Like, you wouldn't know.

Like, when I was like researching it, I was like, oh, I thought of like making a murderer dude.

Yes.

Right.

Who's just like lives on a, you know, farm or whatever.

No, it's like a lovely tutor house and he is your fucking dad's best friend in the 80s.

Yeah.

So he sells the house.

He needs to pay for the legal bills.

So a carpenter is laying, a carpet layer is working on the house.

He pulls up a length of carpet in the hallway.

Underneath that carpet is a floor vent.

Inside that floor vent is a plastic bag taped to the inside of the vent.

Ooh.

Inside the bag is the jewelry that Brenda had brought over the night of, as well as three rolls of undeveloped film.

Oh, shit.

And he grabbed that bag and ran.

Nope, because he didn't own the fucking house anymore.

Someone else owned it.

Oh, you mean the guy, the carpet layer?

The carpenter.

Yes, he did.

Okay, good.

Okay.

And then he very silently, he

nailed in some wood and covered that.

He opened all the, and he exposed the

film.

Anyways, that's the end of my story.

The end by.

Yeah.

So the fucking cops get those three rolls of film developed.

It's like 180 photos of start to finish Marianne's, I mean, Brenda's torture and murder.

Taken by Marianne.

So everything she said was done by Mel.

Holy shit.

Well, Mel's face isn't in the film, but his body hair patterns and names

match it perfectly.

Oh, good.

Okay.

And match her story.

Yes.

Like she wasn't fucking lying.

She's a fucking monster.

Yes.

So she wasn't lying.

Hey, guess what, Karen?

What?

Ever heard of Double Jeopardy?

I sure have.

Oh, well, here it is to ruin your night.

Yep.

Because of Double Jeopardy, Mel can't be retried for Brenda's murder.

He's brought to

trial for perjury based on his grand jury testimony because it's like all they could fucking do.

He knew he couldn't be retried for murder, so he confesses in court at his perjury trial to the whole fucking thing.

Turns to Schaefer, to Brenda's brothers, and says, but she died peacefully.

Yeah.

He gets an eight-year sentence for perjury, serves five of those years, credit for two years that he was served, and another year off for good behavior.

You get, can we look at your whole life life of behavior and know that you murdered someone?

And then so that doesn't, so you fucking not getting in a fight at the mess hall doesn't take time off your fucking sentence?

You'd think.

One would think.

Excuse me.

So,

um,

sentenced,

okay.

Good behavior.

He's out.

He gets another thing.

another charge, another year, another thing for perjury, a different thing.

So they're still going after him in whatever way they can, yeah, like they do on Law and Order.

Yeah, we'll get him for the day, right?

Right.

So, he gets he's another trial for perjury, nine years for that, released from prison.

But the second time in December 2006, he goes home to Louisville, living at home four miles from the house where he murdered Brenda.

Whoa, two years later, September 1st, 2008, Mel allegedly falls off a ladder, cuts his arm on a glass coffee table, again, the coffee table,

slowly leads to death.

Yay!

He's 70 years old.

Okay.

I'm sorry.

So it's a ladder inside the house.

I don't know if it's a ladder, but you know, he's like hanging a painting on a standing

falls off of it.

And some places say he breaks through the glass and cuts his arm.

Some say his head.

But either way, like, there was like blood marks where he like climbed around the house and like couldn't.

And so people are like, did he really fall?

Or did someone like basically go smash his head into a glass coffee table?

Into a coffee table, which is the same thing he fucking tied Brenda to when she came over.

Somewhere I said it's the same coffee table, but I don't think that's true.

And that would be, yeah.

Well, that would mean he would put that coffee table into storage.

But it wasn't his coffee table to begin with.

It was Mary Ann's house.

Okay.

Although I think he owned it.

I don't know, something.

So he's fucked.

This piece of shit is dead dead at 70 in 2008.

Marianne served three years with a five-year sentence, dies from cancer in the hospice at age 54.

Whoa, that's young.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's her body turned on herself.

Yeah.

They were like, we're shutting this shit down.

Well, she's a monster.

Like, if you watch her talking and see her, she's a monster.

I don't understand.

Like, he's dating, he's a 15-year-old man dating a 36-year-old or 34-year-old.

Why doesn't he just break up with her?

Why does he have to kill her?

Why does he have to like rape her and demean her?

And what's the deal?

In the worst way possible.

And he planned it for weeks.

Like he wanted to do this so badly to her.

And it was like two years.

I mean,

I just don't understand.

He's a beast.

That's crazy.

They went back and interviewed like ex-girlfriends, his ex-wife.

And by all accounts, he's a sexual sadist.

He's a fucking monster.

Like, it's surprising that this is the first time he did it, did that, you know?

Yeah.

Especially because he planned, like at 50, he he kills the first one,

you know, and he had tortured his other girlfriends like this before and they all broke up with him or they ended the relationship somehow.

Or there's just ones that they don't know about.

Yeah.

Also, it's then it actually explains Marianne a little bit more because those

because of how like weird, Svangali-ish those types of men can be, where suddenly you're doing things that you would never do.

Maybe.

I don't know.

I don't know.

We've talked a lot of shit about Marianne, but I'm just saying she's a victim too, in that way, where it's just one more person in his weird chain of the way he uses women and what he does to women.

Pits them against each other.

Yes.

Where it's just like, well, you're the special one, so hold this camera.

I mean, like, God, it's just or she's terrified of him because she's had 10 years of fucking psychological and physical abuse from him as well and sexual abuse.

That, you know, she was with him for 10 years.

yeah so maybe in so deep yeah and brainwashed it brainwashed ptsd oh

it's so ugly that's gross i wish i had a positive spin on it at the end but no i don't think you can spin that one there ain't one there not that one poor brenda yeah that's awful um yeah

okay we're back wow any updates on this story yeah i mean i think about this case a lot because

I feel like when you, I just, I think about serving a search warrant on someone's house, like, how far do you go?

Do you pull walls off?

Like, you just, ah, it's so frustrating.

Yeah.

You know, I just wonder how they do.

I'm very curious about search warrants in houses and like what extent they go to.

Let me explain it to you because I've watched Law and Order a bunch.

It seems to me like it has to be within, there is almost like an evidentiary scope.

Isn't that the thing they always say?

It's like out of scope or not in scope.

So if you were going to pull the walls down, you would have to have some sort of like reliable evidence, something's behind those walls.

Right.

And there's a list of things that they're looking for.

And if there's no reason for that thing to be behind a wall, then yeah, you're probably right.

But, you know,

let us know.

Tell us.

We want to know.

Please, lawyers.

So, but I don't have any real updates, but this case, of course, continues to spark conversation about double jeopardy and how the legal system can fail.

The show Evil Lives Here covered the case in a 2021 episode called He Got Away with Murder, which looks at what happened and how Double Jeopardy kept Mel Ignitow from being retried.

I didn't mention this on the original episode, but there's also a book called Double Jeopardy, Obsession, Murder, and Justice Denied by Bob Hill.

It came out in 1995 and it breaks down the twists in the case, the courtroom drama, and what went wrong.

So check that out.

And then in 2024, 48 Hours released an episode called Double Jeopardy, which takes a deeper look at how the law prevented justice in this case.

So just still a fascinating case to like deep dive into.

Yeah, I bet you, I wonder how many lawyers got into, like actually went and studied law because of this case or because of a double jeopardy case where it's like, how can that be?

Yeah, that's not fair.

Right.

But it, but it is.

But it is for the protections of like, you can't just keep retrying somebody.

Totally, totally.

Okay, so we have a hometown from our own banana boy, Kurt Broneler, who was not at the time.

Their podcast, Bananas, the weird news podcast, did not exist.

But he, I think, called in and left a message.

Yeah.

So here's Kurt Broneler's hometown.

We have a murder from a friend.

Should we do Kurt's?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

So, okay.

We haven't done a friend hometown murder in a while.

Yeah.

And we have a friend, Kurt Bronneler, who I'm sure you guys know, he's a hilarious hilarious comedian and actor.

And he called one in.

He called one in.

I haven't listened to this.

Let's hear Kurt's.

Hey, it's Kurt.

So

here's my murder story.

This was a teacher that taught at my high school, Christian Brothers Academy.

It sounds very fancy, but it wasn't really fancy.

It was just an all-boys Catholic school in Lyncroft, New Jersey.

He was the the Latin teacher a few years after I stopped going there.

But the Latin teachers historically had been lunatics.

The Latin teacher that was there when I was there was a monk, like a brother.

Most of the teachers were brothers, and they were all like weirdos.

But he was like the weirdest of the weirdos.

He wouldn't allow you to have a pen in class or hold a pen.

And when we,

and he also would just always constantly talk about his niece's little cupcake breasts.

Not getting obsessed about the meat, but but I heard many times about her little cupcake breasts.

He was taken out of the position of being a Latin teacher because a kid in the class was holding a pen.

And so he punched him in the mouth.

And then they're like, okay, you don't get to teach anymore.

And then that was taken over by my good friend Steve, who was a Latin teacher for a little while.

He couldn't take it.

It drove him crazy.

He left the, he stopped teaching and went to live in Italy to become a stone sculptor, a marble stone sculptor.

And that's when this guy, this guy Matt, took over as the Latin teacher.

The teaching Latin at Christian Brothers Academy drove him so crazy that he just started getting into smoking cracks.

Apparently in the afternoons in a place that my aunt used to live called Ocean Grove.

And Ocean Grove is a Christian community, so Christian that in the 80s, on Sunday, they would close off the town to cars because apparently Jesus doesn't like to drive a car on Sunday.

And so my aunt used to live there and she used to babysit me and she's since become a nun.

So I'm just trying to express express to you how Christian and Catholic this whole situation is.

This guy works at Christian Brothers Academy.

He's smoking crack with a woman whose last name is Weed.

So Ms.

Weed and this guy, Matt, are smoking crack together on a Sunday afternoon.

And then around 6.30 p.m., they get into an argument.

He murders her with a knife.

He stabs her nine times in the neck.

after I guess there was also some beating involved.

It's very horrific.

And then he just walked out down the streets of Ocean Grove.

So, mere minutes after people called the cops because they heard him screaming, they just found him wandering down the streets of this Christian town, just bloody, having murdered this woman that he just loved to smoke crack with on a Sunday afternoon.

This was at 6:30 p.m.

So, whenever they started smoking crack, I have no idea, but that's what

my high school would do to you.

That's insanity.

Is it where then I never want to hang out with Kurt again?

Cause I'm terrified.

I love the visual of a guy covered in blood walking through a town where you're not allowed to drive on the weekends.

It sounds like, it sounds like,

yeah, there's like, it sounds like a Twilight Zone town.

Yes.

That's so perfect that then a guy suddenly the image of the opposite of that.

walking through town.

Also, what was driving people so crazy about that Latin class?

fucking latin man there's some there's some like devil shit devil shit in there it's devilish i can't believe they taught it there wow that was her that was quite the episode that was that was dark that one had something for everybody yeah mostly murder if everyone wanted murder yeah

well we're back and the only update there is that kurt braunaller and scotty landis have gone on to make a podcast here at exactly right again called bananas be sure to listen it's very funny funny.

I mean, it's like Kurt Kara Clank.

Yeah.

She did a hometown.

She has a podcast here, too.

I mean, like, it's pretty clear our development process.

Friends and family.

Yeah, that's right.

Okay, we're going to jump back in for the end of the original show.

Oh, wait.

Let's say something

good.

Okay.

You go first.

Okay.

Well, mine is really big that I also can't super get into detail about it, but I'll just say this.

I had a year, a probably three-year problem

get resolved

on Friday afternoon that has caused me so much stress and panic and

shame.

And it's a financial thing that's boring in detail, but I will tell you this.

If you're in a place where you are fucked financially and you're worried and you're scared, will end.

And I, I swear to God, I was, I've been in this place before, but this was like a way, way, way bigger version.

And it really felt hopeless at times.

And,

and it's over.

And like, and part of the reason it's over is because of this podcast.

And uh, I'm so grateful that we are doing it and that we have it.

It means the world to me.

And we're, I feel crazy lucky that we actually get to do this as a job.

Me too.

It's so fun.

And also just the fact that now this truly it's like a 500 pound weight has been taken off my shoulders happy for you it's really quite nice i had no idea how rough it was until it ended and you told me i know i couldn't tell anybody about it it was so silly please tell me i can handle up

well yeah now i know it's just that thing where i think it's like i think everybody has it some version of it where it's like the problem where you think it's this means some terrible thing about you

around it yeah or just like it's failure it's it's i've failed and now everyone's gonna know i failed right um but guess what everybody fails yeah everybody fails on all different levels every day and we're all trying to make ourselves feel better about it so don't beat yourself up and um just know the end there is always there is always a silver lining there was always light at the end of the tunnel yeah i had in the same kind of idea of that what you just said, I had, after going to therapy since I was a child, like

after, like around five, I had the most amazing session today of, I think, ever.

And she said to me halfway through, I know you're an atheist, Georgia, but you, you worship at the altar of doubt.

And it fucking blew my mind.

And so we're working on that now and how to get past doubt.

And it, it was this switch today

that I'm so, it made me hopeful for the first time in a long time.

When I met you when we were at Jones Unlearned tonight, today, yeah.

you absolutely seemed different.

Really?

Yes.

Well, you had, first of all, like the big smile because somebody was telling you a story about murder.

There was a murder story happening when I arrived.

But then also, yeah, just that kind of, you had almost like the,

like, almost the eyes of like wide-eyed wonder kind of thing of like, oh my God, you can look at the world in a different way.

I felt, and so because of that, I want to say, like, and I know it's so, people try to find therapists and they're new at it and they're like, this didn't work for me.

Or, I didn't like this person.

And it just is a lifetime of it and I've had so many fucking therapists in my life and a handful have been really good yeah and the one I have luckily is right now is amazing and you just have to keep keep trying keep trying because you'll find you'll find it it is almost a little bit like dating right it has to be a person that you want to spend that time with that you want to barf all your worst stuff onto yeah that under that still doesn't make you feel bad no they can't make you feel bad no and this is the first time she's ever said something straight up to me like that and i fucking appreciate it so much.

And this is after a year of getting to know me.

And that was just life-changing.

Yeah.

That's a good thing to realize and understand there's options.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And fuck, man.

I feel lucky too for this podcast.

I can't believe this my life.

I'm so

lucky.

Knock on what?

Haven't you?

Wood.

All of us.

Thank you, Stephen.

Thanks for Stephen.

Thank you so much for really bringing us together and making this podcast happen.

Part of this.

Oh, thank you.

Stephen Ray Morris of the procaste.

It's like turning red.

Blushing.

Stephen, Stephen, you can't be here if you can't take a compliment.

I'm learning.

I'm learning.

You're berating Stephen about not taking our compliment.

It's better if I yell at you, right?

Than compliments.

This feels like home.

Hey, we are back.

Whew, man.

Me talking real time about getting out of basically foreclosure on my house is what I was talking about right there.

Yeah, I remember that.

I remember like the load that was lifted from your shoulders.

I mean, dude, I painted myself into the corneriest corner of all time that I was like, well, I've really done it this time.

There's just no way.

And you were wrong.

There was a way.

I was so happily wrong.

I'll never forget calling you on the phone and being like, hey, how much merch money can I have?

And you were like, you can have all the way up to this number.

And I was like, can I have all of that today?

And you were like, absolutely.

Absolutely.

I don't know anything about taxes.

I'm just going to,

who knows?

Let me wire this to you quickly.

I mean, truly, it was, it was,

this podcast truly saved me.

Yeah.

I mean, me too, in so many ways.

I do get sad looking at my happy thing because it, in a few episodes, it's going to turn into a sad thing.

My therapist.

Oh, God.

I just keep thinking about like when we move into the loft, the pod loft, it's coming.

You know, my therapist taking her life.

And so, seeing that, I just wish I could, I wish she knew that, you know, I just like, I'm very aware that that's coming up soon.

Yeah, horrible.

And such a, that was so shocking.

Yeah, it's coming up.

That's tough.

Yeah.

I mean,

yeah, that was, that was rough.

But there's more to talk about that.

We've gone through some serious shit.

I mean, I ended up meeting her niece at a live show because of the podcast and her mother.

And yeah, just there were pieces of joy that came from it, from a very sad thing.

So very sad.

We'll get there.

Yeah.

So

we'll do the titles.

Now, this is the most

ungraceful transition, but I'll just say we're going to go ahead and do the titles now.

We originally entitled this Some Quiet Sunday.

Which is so good.

If we were naming it today, maybe we would call it.

It could be

we could name it Andy Fish, who is the lead character in our hit British cop show, Fish and Chips.

Andy Fish.

Fish and Chips.

Fuck yes.

Or just undermounded.

Yes.

Undermounded.

Does sound like it.

Yeah.

I'm standing by it.

Yeah, you should.

I do.

There's no reason not to.

That's what the beauty of this podcast: we were like, if we record ourselves for two hours, how many mistakes can we make?

And we're like, let's beat that every week.

150, 200, 300.

We got this.

We got it.

to get to 5 000 that's it speaking of that's it we're gonna let ourselves back then and elvis say goodbye for us that's right but in the meantime thank you guys

thanks for joining us you guys and listening and uh and participating and guess what what

he knows already i know he's jump you're jumping your line yeah elvis stay sexy and don't get murdered elvis you want a cookie

Bye.

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