471 - The Knife

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Speaker 2 Hello, and welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstar.
That's Karen Kale Gareth.

Speaker 1 And today, we have some very special guests to show you. They are luminaries in the true crime podcast space.
You probably know them from their work on the amazing podcast, The Opportunist.

Speaker 2 And now they have a brilliant new podcast that's going to be living right here in our little universe of exactly right media. It's called The Knife, and it premieres on March 27th.

Speaker 2 We're so excited to have Patia Eaton and Hannah Smith here with us from The Knife

Speaker 2 podcast. Yes.

Speaker 2 This has been

Speaker 2 so thrilling, so exciting. We finally got to tell everyone and now you're here on the network.

Speaker 3 Welcome. It's the best feeling.
We're so excited. So excited.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
When you guys came with this idea, we were, it was like a hard yes immediately.

Speaker 1 Of course.

Speaker 2 What made you guys come up? Like, what was your, because you came off the opportunist, you still wanted to do true crime, but this is like kind of heavier, darker stuff.

Speaker 2 Like, what made you want to get into that, that world a little more?

Speaker 4 Yeah. So, you know, we had a lot of time doing the opportunist to sort of think about what it is that we like.
about the stories that we're telling.

Speaker 4 And we spent a lot of time focusing on these bigger seasoned stories where we're interviewing eight to 10 people, which is, you know, fantastic and, you know, in a great way to tell stories.

Speaker 4 But Paisha and I would would talk a lot about an interview that we did with like one victim of a crime that would stick with us.

Speaker 4 And we would end up having to cut so much of that in order to serve this bigger story. And we would talk about like, but this could be a story in and of itself.
This could be an episode.

Speaker 4 And so when we decided to do a show together, we thought about that and wanted to do like more personal, intimate, and more in-depth stories with people whose lives have been impacted by a crime.

Speaker 4 And so that we can hear the whole story from the incident all the way through the aftermath and just really sit with those stories and give them time and space. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah. It became really apparent that when someone was the victim of a crime, that crime was then like,

Speaker 3 what's the word, reverberating throughout their life. Even when we would talk to people where something happened 10, 20 years before, it was like still just so recent for them in a way.

Speaker 3 and that felt really powerful to us and also just the freedom to tell stories that weren't in such a specific lens like on our last show which was really cool but also left us with like we'd send each other articles and it's like oh it doesn't fit the show and we didn't want to be bound by that anymore and we just thought I wonder if Karen and Georgia would hear this pitch yes

Speaker 1 and we were like hell yes hell yes well Hannah when you were on my favorite murder I think it was like three years ago or wasn't that COVID?

Speaker 2 Oh my God.

Speaker 2 That's a long time ago.

Speaker 2 25 years ago.

Speaker 1 That was one of our most popular episodes.

Speaker 1 Of course, I have listened to every episode of The Opportunist, which I know you also produced and worked on too. So yeah, I mean, you guys, the second Danielle was like, oh.

Speaker 1 Hannah Smith and Paisha Eaton have a pitch. We're just like, the answer is yes.

Speaker 2 We don't, if they have a podcast about popcorn, the answer is yes.

Speaker 3 Well, that was our next pitch.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So happy to hear that.
Yay. Yeah.
Yay. Last sequel.
Yeah. Exactly.
We're going hard for kettle corn. Yeah.
Ooh. Dude.
Very controversial.

Speaker 1 Did you guys meet on the opportunist? Is that where you first started working together?

Speaker 2 We did. Yeah.

Speaker 3 We met on the opportunist. Yeah.
I emailed the CEO of the company that thought that... you know, oversaw The Opportunist, owned that show.

Speaker 2 And I was like, I want to work in podcasting, but I've never done it before.

Speaker 3 Like, would you, can I interview on something? And I ended up getting an associate producer interview on the show.

Speaker 2 Didn't get it. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 I was like, no way. No, I must not.

Speaker 2 I really did not make that decision.

Speaker 3 Persistence is everything.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And yeah, from then on, I, so I joined the opportunist in April of 2021. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And so I, I did the first season. So you came on season two.
And, you know, I had been, that was like the biggest break of my career at that point. I'd been working in podcasting since 2017.

Speaker 4 And I had also been thinking a lot about like wanting a creative partner. You know, I'd worked, I'd been around people that had creative partnerships.

Speaker 4 I'd really like, you know, envied that and hoped for that. And Pesha came to start working on the show.

Speaker 4 And even though it was like her first foray into podcasting, she'd worked in film and television a lot.

Speaker 4 She's, you know, a great writer and was doing this career transition, which is something that I had also done into podcasting a few years before.

Speaker 4 So it just, as soon as we met, it was like, oh, we're both like on the same trajectory and we're fascinated by the same kind of stories.

Speaker 4 And it was just this instant sort of feeling of like, oh yeah, we're, we're going to be making things together. And so it's just so exciting that now we're doing that with our own show.

Speaker 2 It's real. I love that.

Speaker 3 That's the best thing ever. Yeah.
When I first started working with Hannah, you know, I was just an associate producer and I was like, can I just start giving feedback on scripts?

Speaker 3 And so I was really comfortable with that working in scripted TV. And so I was just like,

Speaker 3 Hannah, here's an alt for all your narration. Just take it or leave it.
And eventually it was like, yeah, okay, I like that. And from there, you know, the show was a success.

Speaker 3 And we were like, we want to make something else, but we don't have any time. And then all of a sudden we did.

Speaker 2 I love that. You guys have this like perfect, this combination of the like podcast, like wanting to be in podcasting and then the pandemic kind of overlapping.

Speaker 1 And it's just this like really cool, I don't know like this like drive that you both had that just you made it happen you made it and it's just so impressive and like i'm it's so cool it is i i was gonna ask you got rejected the first interview did you go back immediately like i i would if i yeah didn't get i remember interviewing at the warehouse when i was 17 and i didn't get the job and i'm still really upset about it i you know i was like i i wanted the job and i remember being disappointed but i also still had a job at that point i was working at a production company that was under a pod at Warner Brothers.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I wasn't in like, okay, I need a job right now, which was helpful.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 3 I also, you know, at that point was like, there are other podcast jobs. And so I started applying and I didn't get those either.

Speaker 3 But it gave me hope because at that point, podcasting was like, you know, there was this boom that happened because especially with the pandemic, being able to make things remotely was everything.

Speaker 3 You can't do that in a TV. Right.
And so I just kept applying and actually someone from that company reached out and I interviewed again. And, you know, desperation, then I got the job.

Speaker 2 Yes. But you had experience by then because you did the really cool thing of just, and I think this is, we can totally relate to of just like, well, then I'm going to do it on my own.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And you did that and, you know, prove your point that you're like, this is where you should be.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it was like this moment for me of I had tried really hard to like make it as a TV writer. And I had been in a couple of comedy comedy rooms and that was so exciting.
I was a writer assistant.

Speaker 3 Then I got my first credit and I'm in the WGA and then nothing. Right.

Speaker 3 And that was just, you know, I, I wanted more control over being able to like get a job if I was working really hard and getting better at it. And so podcasting gave me that.

Speaker 3 So yeah, I found a missing persons case. I spent all my extra time working on it.

Speaker 3 And I just kind of taught myself how to like not be offended when someone hangs up on you and ask the right questions and and like find people's information online.

Speaker 2 You guys are so good at that. I'm so impressed.
And it like makes me sweat listening to you guys talk about like cold calling people. Yeah.
But you both do it in a way that is like so kind.

Speaker 2 You don't spring things on people. You don't have that everyday like predatory thing.
Get some. We're not trying to like get people.
We're not trying to gotcha.

Speaker 4 We can get some information out of you. You know, we really want people to feel comfortable and open up to us.

Speaker 4 But it does mean you have to get a lot out in like 20 seconds before they're like, I think this might be a spam call and hang up on you.

Speaker 3 Yeah. My area code is like Maple Valley, Washington.
And they're like, excuse me, who? You live in Los Angeles? Click.

Speaker 2 You think that helps? That it's like Washington?

Speaker 3 You know, only if it's someone in Washington, but sometimes it is. Yeah, it's, it's a, I think it's just you have to.

Speaker 3 get a little more comfortable with being hung up on people telling you not to call back and just accept that like, that's their prerogative, and it's part of it.

Speaker 3 But most of the time, people will hear you out whether or not they agree to interview. And that was something that was really exciting to me.
I'm like, I get to just be nosy.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 This is unbelievable. I love this.

Speaker 1 But then, when those interviews actually take place, in your first episode in your interviewing Darun about her attack, there's this amazing part when I was listening to it for the first time where she is speaking for a while and getting people to really talk about these experiences is, I'm sure, a very delicate thing.

Speaker 1 She's talking and talking. And then you ask one quick question.
I was like, she's there. Hannah is there.
So you're, it's like, you're not directing it. You're not interrupting or anything.

Speaker 1 Like clearly, you are leading that conversation in this way where you're allowing people to kind of open up to you. Is that, how did you learn that skill?

Speaker 2 I don't know how I learned that skill.

Speaker 4 I think like

Speaker 2 maybe

Speaker 4 I'm not sure. I mean, sometimes our interviews go for a very long time.

Speaker 4 And sometimes I'm like, well, maybe if I were a better interviewer, I could really accomplish this in one hour instead of two and a half.

Speaker 4 But I just think like listening to people, being able to like, you know, just create that space and let people talk about an experience that they've been through that sometimes is like very traumatic and hard for them to talk about.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 4 one thing we've also encountered a lot is that, you know, especially like a lot of times when we would interview people who'd been scammed, they would say things like, wow, you know, people in my life knew that this happened to me, but like, no one's really taken the time to sit down and just let me like tell the whole thing.

Speaker 4 And that feels good that we're able to let people do that. We're able to hear their story as well as share it with the world.
And yeah, I mean, that's a meaningful thing to me. So

Speaker 2 yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 I mean, before we do an interview, we

Speaker 3 do whatever amount of research makes sense for that story and have questions prepared. And sometimes we ask two of these questions because they get answered on their own.

Speaker 3 But it's really like, what is something that we think is really interesting about this person's story or

Speaker 3 the way that they reacted to something that happened to them? And so those kinds of questions are always top of mind when we're listening.

Speaker 3 But I think it's also we tell them before the interview, like, we want this to be your story.

Speaker 3 We're going to help help guide you through telling it because, you know, jumping around through time, oh, I remembered this thing that happened and we want to be there to help them, but and make them feel comfortable.

Speaker 3 But, you know, we try really hard to just keep it as authentic as possible. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 You guys have some really, it's a hard job. Your first episode with Jeroon is so.

Speaker 2 I mean, emotional. It's this awful attack that she, I mean, fought back like a badass, but experienced.

Speaker 2 Like, tell us more about the season and then the episodes that you guys are going to be doing. Is it just kind of more of these incredible cases?

Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, we have, you know, that's part of our drive for doing this kind of show is all manner of stories.
And, you know, we have people like Darun who.

Speaker 3 you know, they're on a morning run and something awful happens to them and they're fighting for their life. And then there's the aftermath of that.

Speaker 3 We have people who are in a domestic violence situation with a spouse and the complications of that because you own a home with someone, you have children with someone, and how do you get out of that situation?

Speaker 3 Or how did this person get out of that situation? And then, you know,

Speaker 3 we love a scam story.

Speaker 2 When it is a scam,

Speaker 2 cult story.

Speaker 4 We have a wrongful conviction story coming up that is really powerful. Great.

Speaker 3 Identity theft.

Speaker 4 We're going to try to cover a lot of different types of crimes.

Speaker 4 Our really like unifying theme is the approach that we take to storytelling and just hearing firsthand from someone who whose life was altered because of a crime.

Speaker 1 It's cool. Amazing.
If you were forced, and you might be, to do a different podcast of any genre.

Speaker 2 Popcorn aside.

Speaker 1 I mean, yeah, we've got the popcorn one on the decks. That's being, that's in development now.
But have you ever thought of doing just going completely out of the genre and doing anything different?

Speaker 2 Vanderpump rules. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, I could talk about anything bravo for sure. But no, I mean, I

Speaker 3 we have just spent so much time at the like over the last year and seven months working on True Crime podcasts. It would feel so unusual.

Speaker 3 But yeah, I could talk about anything Bravo. That's what I could do.

Speaker 2 I could bring that to the table.

Speaker 4 I could do a Survivor podcast.

Speaker 3 I love Survivor.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a good show.

Speaker 4 So television, maybe even though we watch different television, very different television.

Speaker 3 There's some slight overlap within True Crime, really.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 But But I've been trying to get Hilda to watch the Real Hopswise, for example, to no avail.

Speaker 2 Hasn't happened.

Speaker 2 I feel like it's happened. Fight the good fucking, yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, but the off-record episode is a little bit different. It is kind of, it is new for you guys, right? Something that is a little more like chatty and

Speaker 1 less fully produced, fully journalistic. Yeah, for you.
Talk about that.

Speaker 2 For you guys listening, they have the episode, full episode of the knife, and then the off-record episodes are kind of the, it's almost like the

Speaker 1 kind of like a mailbag episode or like a recap episode from the main episode or like a more info

Speaker 4 yeah you know we've sort of like to think of them as it could be a lot of different things we love the idea of mailbag answering listener questions and being able to interact with people in that way we also you know we are going to talk a little bit about the conversations that patient and i have making true crime podcasts like we have so many conversations to do with sometimes it's like cold calling people or ethical conversations about how we portray different stories.

Speaker 4 So we're going to have some of those conversations like on mic so that you know listeners can be part of that. Great.

Speaker 2 Let's also tell true crime stories.

Speaker 3 Yeah, true crime story is also an opportunity for us to tell stories where we didn't get the right interview, but like, wow, this is a fascinating story. And now I get to tell Hannah all about it.

Speaker 3 And maybe we've like had it on our list for a while, but no one had had time to do a deep dive until now. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You guys are like, I swear you feel like a parallel universe us, us, but you guys have a lot more homework to do than you actually do your homework. You do your homework.

Speaker 2 You guys are like really smart.

Speaker 3 It's chronic at this point. We're like, okay, we need to make this one really quick and easy.
And then eight hours later, we just mind.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 But I'm hoping like part of the off record is an attempt to get away from that, to have like more conversations with each other without having to do tons of homework. Yeah.

Speaker 2 We'll see.

Speaker 1 Well, I do think the audience will be so fascinated because that is the piece that you never get from like a limited series or the series that are more journalistic and a little more formal and need to be.

Speaker 1 But it... I just love that idea that you guys kind of like, yep, we can do that and we can do this.
And then you can tell us what you thought of that. And then we're going to do another one.

Speaker 1 It's like a really fun kind of like backstage feel.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's fun for us to talk about it because we love the job so much and also just this like hybrid of journalism and storytelling. And we're not investigators, but we are like making a podcast.

Speaker 3 And I think that's, you know, maybe a lesser known skill set.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And you guys did, you did it in such a cool way, as I said earlier, just the way you were like, I want to be in podcasts.
Or like, I know you guys were listening to serial when it came out.

Speaker 2 And it's like, oh, this is a thing we can do. And I feel like we had the, had the exact same thought of.
Let's just start it. Let's do this.
And I think that's really like, it's inspiring.

Speaker 2 Yeah, totally. I think people were going to really love to hear about that.

Speaker 1 This podcast is sponsored by PayPal.

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Speaker 1 In your years of research and having to do those deep dives, and I know it's, you know, depending on the subject, but is there anything you've ever uncovered, learned a factoid, like something crazy?

Speaker 1 I just always picture you guys working at like late at night with one light and you're like, you know, on LexisNexis, like trying to figure stuff out.

Speaker 1 Like, do you, can you just like recap one moment where you had like that kind of journalistic Nancy Drew discovery or anything?

Speaker 3 There have definitely been things said on preliminary calls where we're just getting some background information where we're like, we have to level with them. We're not going to touch that.

Speaker 3 You know, like, that's not going to come up. And if it comes up in an interview, we're not going to, it's not going to make the episode.

Speaker 3 Whether that's maybe, you know, something that we don't agree with value system-wise or

Speaker 3 accusations, you know, people have very different experiences within a crime story and will really get fired up about it. And so,

Speaker 3 you know, figuring out how to make sure that person feels heard, but also

Speaker 3 we want to do it it right.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, there's the research and then also there's learning things from conversations with people.

Speaker 4 Just because like, you know, there's the headline and then there's an article and then maybe there's a longer form article if you're lucky.

Speaker 4 And then, you know, I'm like, okay, where's the documentary or where's the book or where, you know,

Speaker 4 and then you hit like a, a stop where there's just nothing more.

Speaker 2 Like a Reddit thread, maybe.

Speaker 4 Yeah, maybe there's a Reddit thread. And, you know, I've, I think, like, I've always just been like, what's what, what, what else? Like, I just have more questions.

Speaker 4 And so then through, you know, finding someone who was like, oh, yeah, that was, you know, I, you know, yeah, I was there or whatever. And I knew that person.
And then, oh, great, will you talk to me?

Speaker 4 And then, you know, having a two-hour-long conversation with that person, there's so much that will come out. Like, I'm thinking about like season three of the opportunist we did with the cat cult.

Speaker 3 And which I found that story by Googling quote cult plus sign cat quote end quote. And I'm like, I wonder what's out there.

Speaker 2 Just for kids. Oh, it's so fun.

Speaker 3 And then this one little article came up, and I was like, I don't know if I should pitch this to Hannah. Is this too much?

Speaker 1 She's like, I love it.

Speaker 2 So this is the exact kind of story I want to tell you.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And then when we had a conversation with Mary, who is married to this man who used to be married to the cult leader, during the interview, she revealed to us that there was an attempted murder involved with the story, where she had befriended this guy years later who was her, you know, assassin, essentially, that the cult leader had tried to convince him to kill her and her husband, and he didn't.

Speaker 4 And then years later, they became friends. So that was a moment where this whole other aspect to the story opened up.

Speaker 2 And we're like, wait a minute, what?

Speaker 4 Like, there's also like, you know, a potential attempted murder here. So there's, you know, that, that was a big moment, but there's a lot of moments that happen like that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's amazing. How has it been like in your line of work? How is law enforcement communication going for you guys? It seems like that would be a tough one.

Speaker 3 It is and it's not.

Speaker 3 It's like if there's a case where, you know, it's case closed, someone's been convicted, sentenced, usually there's law enforcement who will happily talk about it because it's maybe something they consider a career accomplishment and maybe it is.

Speaker 3 But if the case is still open, it can be a lot more difficult.

Speaker 3 And, you know, when we do those interviews, they can still be very useful for information, but you're not going to get someone to like reflect or give you anything beyond, you know, a very like by the book answer.

Speaker 3 And that can be challenging. But I would say overall, pretty good.

Speaker 2 I do want to know more about the interviews you do with the people involved in the case. The first off-record episode is so incredible about about these missing teens.

Speaker 2 And you got friends to talk, you got family to talk. Yeah.
I mean, that's like, and you went, you went there in person too. It's like that just has to change everything.

Speaker 3 It did. It changed everything.
You know, I went to the DA's office and, you know, sat down with an investigator who had previously been a detective on the case when he was earlier in his career.

Speaker 3 It was incredible. I got to, I fell in love with it because I met so many people I would have never met.
And, you you know, I got immersed in this story and really got to understand

Speaker 2 how

Speaker 3 current it all was for them still. You know, their friends had gone missing,

Speaker 3 you know, 20 years earlier. And they're talking about these memories that are so vivid for them.

Speaker 3 And also unpacking it with me for really the first time for a lot of them because it was a small town and the same theories had circulated.

Speaker 3 And I just thought, like, this is such a privilege that these people are taking this complete stranger into their home. I had a little Olympus recording thing that I got for like 20 bucks.

Speaker 3 And I'm, you know, they're just talking to me. And they didn't care that I had no previous podcasting experience.
They only cared that someone wanted to hear their story.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And that really hit home and was like, I'm so motivated to do this now. And then, you know, I got, I got my job on the opportunist, got much busier, wasn't really sure how to end the story.

Speaker 3 I was so new to it.

Speaker 4 And you recorded like multiple episodes and put them together. Yeah.
I don't remember how many, but I'm one of the few people that have the privilege of listening to it. And it was really good.

Speaker 4 Amazing. But the case was still unsolved, and you didn't have, you weren't sure how to end it.

Speaker 3 I wasn't sure how to end it. And I also felt conflicted about some of the tape because, you know, there were two missing teens, Jeremy Bechtel and Aaron Foster.

Speaker 3 And Jeremy's family was very open with me.

Speaker 3 Aaron's family was much less and I started feeling conflicted about putting so much out there without their support and that was something I was thinking a lot about.

Speaker 3 I didn't have the confidence in my storytelling ability that I have after having done it now. But it was just so

Speaker 3 interesting to like, I'm going to get case file, access to a case file. I'm going to get to go ask these people questions.

Speaker 3 And, you know, I didn't, I didn't break news with the story, but I was able to sort of piece together enough to be like, I know that they left that party, and I know that after that party, they went to Aaron's house.

Speaker 3 And I had only ever heard or read that they had left that party and never been seen again. And that was enough for me to be like, sometimes it just takes like

Speaker 3 not a professional, but like fresh eyes and energy into doing something. And I didn't solve that case.
They did. And they, with the help of this YouTube diver exploring the nug.
Spoiler.

Speaker 2 Spoiler. Spoiler.

Speaker 3 It was so amazing because I had built so many relationships in that town that when as they're literally pulling the car up from the river, people are calling me.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I was like, oh my gosh. And so then I felt this weight of like, well, I now have all of these relationships with Jeremy's family members.
I need to call them.

Speaker 4 And like, did you inform them?

Speaker 3 One of them, I informed him because he had been calling me and we had been playing phone tag.

Speaker 3 and then it felt strange and I just said I don't have any details I've just heard that Aaron's car was found in the river and you need to call Sheriff Page and incredible yeah it was you know I didn't want to make those phone calls certainly but when you're talking to people every day for a long time they're wanting to talk about it with you and

Speaker 3 It was just a great experience. And also, I think with missing persons cases, for me, there's that hope.
And even though, you know, after 20 years, I think hope dwindles.

Speaker 3 But I really liked that aspect of it. And that was just, it was exciting.
It's so cool.

Speaker 2 As a cold case junkie, I really was just, that story was incredible.

Speaker 1 Well, and also it's, that's such a good point that like when something happens to people, a trauma, like all of a sudden just your child is gone.

Speaker 1 You're, you know, they're just, there's no explanation. And people help you for a little while and then just nothing.

Speaker 1 The idea that you are left to process that or just or not because you don't get any answers, it's not the same as like, there's a death in the family. It's just, it's a total void.

Speaker 1 And like, you know, you describing it that way, it's like, it must be incredibly powerful to have someone come and say, I care about what this is and I want to help in some way.

Speaker 1 I do. That is what I love about the true crime community is like, there are so many sincere, sincerely caring like professionals and non-professionals that are like, what can I do?

Speaker 1 What could I look up online? Like, what could I research?

Speaker 3 Yeah. And it also was very eye-opening in the way of like, it's easy to say, oh, you know, why didn't the, why didn't local law enforcement do more? Obviously, they didn't run away to Florida.

Speaker 3 They, they left a paycheck behind, like all of these like quote unquote, like obvious things that had happened or not happened and blame.

Speaker 3 But when you talk to all of these different people, it's like, you know, well, wait a minute.

Speaker 3 That office had one computer at the time. So that means these notes are handwritten and then typed out.
And how many notes are you taking if you're writing something by hand? Totally.

Speaker 3 And what does this game of telephone really look like, even if you're trying your best? What was the training at the time?

Speaker 3 It wasn't, so then it was like, okay, I have to take a step back because it's not one person's fault. It wasn't like.
There were a lot of things that should have gone differently and didn't.

Speaker 3 But it made me take a step back and think about how little you really get from reading an article. And I just wanted to know more.

Speaker 1 Do you have a story like that of something that's happened where you're just getting involved kind of

Speaker 1 turned things a little bit? That's like that maybe journalistic satisfaction that you get to have sometimes.

Speaker 4 I don't know if I have a story quite like that where that... where it gets solved, a missing person's case.
I mean, that's pretty incredible. Yeah.

Speaker 3 But certainly, like, you know, we've talked to people that have reached out to Hannah from

Speaker 3 just knowing her from the opportunist and said, Well, what about my story? Can you look into this? And, you know, I think that is a cool place to be.

Speaker 3 Like, someone thinks that I care enough to look into this and like actually do some research. And I think that that's also a really like great thing about being able to connect with listeners.

Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4 And I mean, like, you know, I've never, yeah, I've never solved a case or anything like that.

Speaker 2 That's season two.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's coming.

Speaker 4 But, you know, just being able to bring it to like people's attention, to continue to keep attention on these things as we were just talking about, I think means a lot.

Speaker 4 And you never know what that can do. It's like, you know, Pesha didn't solve this case, but the fact that there was so much attention on it, I don't know, it keeps it.

Speaker 4 fresh in people's minds and you just never know like what that could lead to. So that's what I usually tell people when they're like, I have this, you know, case.
And, well, I'm not able to solve it.

Speaker 4 I'm not an investigator, but we can certainly tell that story. And then hopefully that will help you connect to other people or resources to, you know, hopefully make some leeway there.
Yeah.

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Speaker 2 You guys have that thing that I think that people who are into true crime, like we are, murderinos, which is this like curiosity about the way humans work and the way these decisions people make affects

Speaker 2 everyone's life around them. And you can hear that in the podcast, this curiosity that you guys have.
That's so, so pure. And I totally identify with it.

Speaker 4 Totally. I mean, I think that so many people who love true crime feel that way, right? And it makes me think of actually

Speaker 4 this episode of a podcast that you sent me years ago. It's a criminal episode.

Speaker 2 We know you all love criminals

Speaker 4 as well. Yeah, so good.
And she was interviewing Errol Morris. You know, he was talking about crime stories and always just stuck with me.

Speaker 4 He talked about like the heart of crime stories is just humanity. You know, it's, um, and I just, I just agree with that so wholeheartedly.

Speaker 4 You know, in all of these stories, of course, there is some incident, some dramatic incident, right?

Speaker 4 But like within that, there are stories of people surviving or people seeking justice and the complications of what that looks like. What does that even mean?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And how people hurt each other and how people try to heal and what that does to an individual person and to a community. I mean, it is just humanity.
It's like how we all live together.

Speaker 4 And that is just endlessly compelling.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It makes me think of the episode and the opportunist. And look, the opportunist was great.
Congratulations. Your new podcast is amazing.

Speaker 1 But I, you know, I just have the memory of you talking about the people who invested in the guys who were claiming that they were going to go find

Speaker 1 this sunken treasure boat. Yes.
And so it's that kind of story where it's like, this is not a murder. This is not, you know, one of those kind of stories.

Speaker 1 It's a, it's a scam story that as it went, it just became more and more heartbreaking as I listened to it of like these people who it's like, it's easy to go like, oh, well, you made a mistake or that was a dumb investment.

Speaker 1 And it's like, these guys went through and just methodically drained the bank accounts of retirees and like just destroyed these families. And that was just kind of like, well, too bad for you.

Speaker 1 And I'm sure that there are people who like, when, if they go through an experience like that, being able to hear somebody else be able to say it and have, you know, the validity, like be able to give it the gravitas it deserves of like, this is horrible.

Speaker 1 It should not be happening. We should have systems set up.
Or how do you, what are the next steps you take when someone doesn't just, you know, rip you off, but like you lose all your money.

Speaker 3 And you never think it's going to be you. Like ever.
You know, we've. probably never interviewed someone and been like, oh, I could see how that happened to them.

Speaker 3 It's like, no, that could be all of us.

Speaker 4 Like, yeah, no one is like, well, I kind of expected that to happen.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 You never think it's going to be you. And I think there's also this like

Speaker 3 self-exploration that happens where you're like, when you, when that feeling creeps in, like something's not right here, this other part of you is in survival mode, being like, everything's fine.

Speaker 2 I'm sure it's okay.

Speaker 3 It's all going to come together. And like those two voices are battling it out in your head until there's this point of no return.
And, you know, that's not someone being naive all the time.

Speaker 3 That's just like life. You have to trust people sometimes.

Speaker 3 And, you know, maybe a gold bar at the bottom of the ocean sounds far-fetched, but it's not like this random person knocked on someone's door and said, I know where to find, you know, a sunken treasure boat.

Speaker 3 It's like, this is a trusted person in the community supported by another trusted person in the community. And that goes a long way way for people.

Speaker 2 Which makes it all the more evil. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Oh, that was a tough one. That was tough.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's very satisfying that we get to host a podcast where there's the potential where obviously there's the relation of there's a crime and then somebody gets to tell their story, be a survivor, be, you know, get their voice out there.

Speaker 1 But then that someone listening at home.

Speaker 1 who might not have any of that support or any of that kind of platform gets to relate or have somewhere to go or a next steps kind of plan.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and just feels seen. Like, wow, a version of that happened to me.
And here's someone talking about it in a way that's not pejorative or demeaning.

Speaker 3 It's just like, that could be like, I'm not, you know, the only person this has ever happened to. Something's not wrong with me.
Someone did something wrong to me.

Speaker 3 And, you know, that like goes back to even

Speaker 3 when I was, you know, researching that case in Tennessee, it's like this, this idea that someone feels heard becomes really important in the work that we're doing and is, I think, something we don't want to lose in our storytelling.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that's impossible for you guys to lose. I think that's just stuck in nature for you.
It's so cool.

Speaker 3 It's definitely like the most fun I've ever had.

Speaker 2 That's great. It's exactly what I want to be doing.
Yay.

Speaker 2 I love it. It's so exciting.

Speaker 1 It's so, I feel like people are going to really really love this podcast. I just, we've, everyone that works here has listened to it.
It's just like, it's a hit.

Speaker 2 It's a huge hit.

Speaker 3 It's just so great. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Great to see you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 4 We're so excited to be here. And, you know, you all have supported us so much too, you know, shouting out the show back, you know, when we were doing it and always being like, just cheering us on.

Speaker 4 And that we always saw that and always meant a lot to us. And so, you know, it just feels like a really great place for us to be.
It just feels right. And so we're really, we're happy to be here.

Speaker 2 Does it feel exactly right? It feels exactly right.

Speaker 2 Okay, then you should just sign your life away right here. Yeah, exactly.
Yay. Yay.

Speaker 1 Honestly, and I mean, like, you know, this is business, but also we adore you guys. We love the work you do.

Speaker 1 We're so proud of the show that you've made and the fact that we get to put it on our network. So thank you so much.
Thanks for being here.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Thank you so much.
Yeah. That's it's the best feeling ever.

Speaker 2 Yay.

Speaker 2 So the knife launches on March 27th and new episodes are up every Thursday. Please listen.

Speaker 1 And don't forget to go and follow, rate, review, subscribe, support, show up. And on Instagram and Blue Sky, you can find them at The Knife Podcast.

Speaker 2 Thanks, you guys. Yeah, thank you guys so much.

Speaker 3 Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited.

Speaker 2 Yay, okay. Goodbye.

Speaker 3 Elvis, do you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 This has been an exactly right production.

Speaker 2 Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

Speaker 1 Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.

Speaker 2 Our editor editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 1 This episode was mixed by Liana Squalace.

Speaker 4 Our researchers are Maren McClashin and Allie Elkin.

Speaker 1 Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.

Speaker 4 Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder.

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Speaker 5 Whenever I got through the window, I tried to pick him up, and his body was stiff.

Speaker 7 I'm Ben Westoff, and this is The Peacemaker, a true crime podcast about a string of mysterious suicides at a Missouri university and the fraternity brother tied to them all, Brandon Grossheim.

Speaker 5 The lawsuit says Grossheim was one of the last people to see each victim before their deaths.

Speaker 7 Was he profoundly unlucky, or was something much darker at play?

Speaker 7 Listen to the Peacemaker podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.