Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 71: Put It In A Door

Transcript

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Speaker 3 Hello.

Speaker 1 And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows with all new commentary, updates, and insights.
And you're welcome.

Speaker 1 Today we're recapping episode 71, which we named Put It in a Door. That's right.
It'll make a lot later. Yeah, exactly.
This episode came out on June 1st, 2017.

Speaker 1 So let's listen to the intro of episode 71.

Speaker 5 Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder. This is a podcast, and that's Karen Kilgareff.
And that's over there, Georgia Hardstark. Hi.
We're the hosts. We're the hosts.
This is all... Planned out.

Speaker 5 Super, and it's very naturally delivered. We're actually reading a teleprompter right now.
It's one of those invisible ones.

Speaker 5 So if you were looking at us, you wouldn't be able to see it, but we can see the words that are scrolling on it. Stephen's actually mouthing the words to us that we have to be saying right now.

Speaker 5 Yes, Stephen's down below the stage in a little half shell, the way they used to do it in the operetta times,

Speaker 5 whispering our lines to us. Yeah, we have a little earpiece in.

Speaker 5 We're like newscasters, but Stephen is the director up in the control room. Yeah, breaking news, none of that's true.
Breaking news, this podcast is starting. In case you couldn't tell.
In five.

Speaker 5 That was a ruse.

Speaker 5 The whole thing. It was a trick.
The whole thing has been a trick.

Speaker 5 I think my cat barked on the couch of sitting. Boy, can you smell it or feel it?

Speaker 5 I don't want to say feel it, but that's true. But that might be the horrible truth.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 off to a gross start. Yay.
How's it going?

Speaker 5 Really good. I'm getting over

Speaker 5 what I believe to be near-death pneumonia, but is probably just a standard chest cold. It's probably the plague.
Knocked me out. I didn't get to do anything I wanted to do last weekend or week.

Speaker 5 So I'm a little bit like when you don't see anybody for four days and then you're all like, everything's real and tense. And you forget how to speak to people.

Speaker 5 You've only been yelling at your dogs, probably.

Speaker 5 I will probably tell you the plot of a sitcom as a conversation where it's like, and then she walked in the kitchen. It was so crazy.
What did you watch?

Speaker 5 Like, did you have a thing that you got through the whole time? Um,

Speaker 5 I did start watching a series on,

Speaker 5 I have a one of those, I won't name the name of it because I don't like it that much, but it's one of those.

Speaker 5 Uh, we have all the British shows apps.

Speaker 5 Um, so I watched a bunch of obscure British procedurals that weren't the best and also weren't the worst.

Speaker 5 So, I, that's sometimes I'm in the mood for just truly mediocre television, sure, and I could just watch a ton of it. Well, you know what I did the other night?

Speaker 5 I was home alone, and I was like scrolling and you can't decide what to watch. And like my TV, whatever kind it is,

Speaker 5 it pops up all these options and one of them was YouTube. And I'm like, who the fuck watches YouTube on television? Like it's a very foreign thing to me.
The children. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And so I like kind of clicked on it to see like what videos they were like offering.

Speaker 5 And I got in a deep, dark hole of

Speaker 5 men doing

Speaker 5 tutorials of makeup. Yes.
I mean, they were fucking famous and they were talking about like the scant. scant, like, like they were talking to these people who watch it every day.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 And they're like, I know this thing happened, and people said this about me on the internet. Like, there's stories.
And like, I looked one of them up because I was like, what happened?

Speaker 5 And like, one of them said something kind of racist on accident. And it was just this whole world that I am not familiar with at all.
And now you're like right front and center. Like,

Speaker 5 bring me that drama on that YouTube drama. Yeah.
Did you see the one that's the little boy doing that insane makeover? Yes, yes.

Speaker 5 And whoever tweeted it, it was this great short video of a boy who maybe was nine or ten

Speaker 5 doing insanely amazing makeup on himself. Incredible makeup.
And the person that tweeted it said some fucked up thing, like, yeah, like, what would you do if this was your child?

Speaker 5 And all these huge famous people and all these awesome people and cool people wrote back, like, Samantha Ronson, the DJ, she wrote back, like, sit back and enjoy the

Speaker 5 life he's going to give me as,

Speaker 5 a business. Basically, he's going to be rich and famous and he's going to take care of me as his mare.
And

Speaker 5 David Cross wrote back, throw my Bible away and love him unconditionally.

Speaker 5 And all this stuff where it's just like, it's this world where it's so funny when people get onto social media thinking that they're going to rally their troops in one way, where it's like, no, that's not the world anyone lives in anymore.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Little boys doing amazing, like contour Kardashian level makeup is standard fare.
Yeah. And it's welcome.
Have you seen, though, the little kids who do the bad ones? No.

Speaker 5 Like one little girl was clearly obsessed with makeup tutorials because she knew exactly how to do everything and she might have been like seven or eight. And so

Speaker 5 she just like sneaks into her mom's room and she's like whispering the whole time and like starts doing a makeup tutorial and just makes her face look like how a seven-year-old would make think to put makeup on.

Speaker 5 And it was just the cutest thing. And I think her mom comes in at the end and she's like, oh, shit.
I'm like,

Speaker 5 I gotta go. It was just like, so sweet.
I love it. Also, I can watch

Speaker 5 because my friend April Richardson's obsessed with makeup tutorials and makeup herself. So there have been times where she's really good at it.
She's really, yeah, she's, and she's all goth.

Speaker 5 So she's all about like, I'm going to wear a blue lipstick and this red eyeshadow.

Speaker 5 But there was a night where we were, started to watch something.

Speaker 5 It may have been like a Republican debates night or something where we got into something really tense and upsetting and then at the end of that she's like hold on and then just flipped on this girl that was just doing this insane like susie sue amazing eye makeup and it's so soothing to watch someone it's just like watching an artist draw a bunch of people on twitter were like uh that i because i tweeted about a bunch of people comment they're like try the hair ones i bet the hair ones are so soothing my niece nora is obsessed with the hair ones there are two sisters there's a whole family they're like twins or something they're twins and then the mother's a hairdresser so she'll get in there and be like Here's Elsa's hair from Frozen, and here's this, this, this.

Speaker 5 Well, now these girls they started when they were like 10 years old, now they're in high school. And my sister's like, they're like Nora's friends.
That's like she's been watching.

Speaker 5 Oh, right, right, right. Yeah.
So they get on there and they're like, Here's our first day of school hair. And then they show you what they're going to do.

Speaker 5 And they show your mom how to do your hair cut. Basically, it's the cutest.
I love it for them.

Speaker 5 God bless us, everyone. God bless us.
And good night. Good night.
This has been

Speaker 5 YouTube corner.

Speaker 5 What do we have? Oh, you have that email. Oh, I have an email to read to you guys.
A real good one.

Speaker 5 It's a kind of a correction. It's a clarification corner.
Is that a new thing? It's called Tip from NYPD. I was just listening.
Maybe that should be a whole new area. Tips from the NYPD.
Great. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Everyone, send in your tips. And this is actually a guy who sent us a tip, or no, a woman who sent us a tip from a friend who was in the NYPD.

Speaker 5 so you don't directly need to be secondhand tips yeah right

Speaker 5 secondhand tips from those in the now

Speaker 5 corner yeah it has to the source has to be factual and in the know though please keep that in mind but we're not going to do any fact checking no and that's on you you don't need to either okay hi it's really it's really structured there's a lot of rules it's more of a storytelling corner yeah don't just don't okay hi i was just listening to you guys explain that you should ask a cop to see their id and their badge and which we talked about recently and wanted to share a recommendation from a friend of mine who was a retired NYPD after 20 years.

Speaker 5 If a cop, quote, cop, comes to your door and you aren't expecting them, you shouldn't open the door. You should call 911 and ask the operator if they're supposed to be a cop at your house.
Yes.

Speaker 5 The 911 operator should confirm with the officers and you should be able to hear that confirmation over the police radio through the door, which is like so intense.

Speaker 5 And I feel like most people would be like, oh, I don't want to be, like, that's intent. That's a lot of steps.
If they aren't a real cop, you won't hear that and won't get confirmation.

Speaker 5 And 911 will know that there is an impersonator at your door. And you'll, it'll be an impersonator.

Speaker 5 So even if you're like, oh, I went through too many steps, you now have a person that was trying to get into your house and you now have 911 on the line. And you know they're not the little shit.

Speaker 5 And it's like, well, I would be like, well, what if they break my door down, which they can't do unless they have a warrant?

Speaker 5 But then it would be the police. And that would mean, if they were breaking your door down, that would mean you were in there with like a hostage or something.
I mean, like, that's

Speaker 5 they don't break your door down when they just need to come and talk to you about it. Right.

Speaker 5 But if the guy, if the killer breaks your door down, then you're already on the phone with 911. That's right.
Exactly. Right.

Speaker 5 Also, it's not going to happen. I mean, what are the fucking chances? Get a new front door if it's that easy.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Our old front door at my old place was like a bat a bedroom door. Was it really? Yeah, it was like hollow.

Speaker 5 I know this because I fucking patched over it.

Speaker 5 but i put a note in it first but it was just a total hollowed bedroom door and what note what did the note say uh it was like a wish oh which i don't do very often but it came true i think it said like i wish to be mildly successful and very happy

Speaker 5 i don't need to be like extreme i'm not asking for everything

Speaker 5 wait a second did you just start a new trend of putting wishes inside doors and patching over i mean that's amazing i think it's a thing of like hiding wishes.

Speaker 5 There's a wishing tree in Griffith Park on

Speaker 5 a path, and someone just puts paper and a pen up there, and there's like a hollow in the tree, and you just drop your wish in there. Huh.
What would your wish be?

Speaker 5 Tree or door, because it's two different scenarios. It could be tree, door, birthday, cake, anything.
Oh, aren't you not supposed to say? Well, can you tell? You could probably say the door.

Speaker 5 I'll tell Stephen and then he'll tell you. Okay.
It could be the, you know, because Stephen's such a gossip.

Speaker 5 Like, okay, how about because I just told the door wish, the the door wish you're allowed to say, but the birthday and tree you're not allowed to say.

Speaker 5 Oh, well, right now it would be to meet somebody that was exciting, that would make me not feel dead inside anymore.

Speaker 5 Yeah, so you're not going to meet like a nice, what, I don't know, what's a job that a guy could be that architect? Yeah, a trade.

Speaker 5 Like something that's just like you're self-sufficient and you're not, your job isn't to judge or rate other people.

Speaker 5 I always thought mechanics probably were cool, who like specialize in a certain kind of like old car and they're like the best in their trade. Or tattoo artists would be fun.

Speaker 5 Tattoo artists would be very cool. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Just like one of those guys, you know, sometimes you see people fixing the road as you drive by.
They've got like a hard hat and an orange shirt.

Speaker 5 And like, that's the hottest guy I've ever seen and will ever see. And he's probably so down to earth.
Right.

Speaker 5 Well, well, let's punch a hole in your door and let's get the wishing going. Let's do it.

Speaker 5 Let's tune in my closet door, which is a mirror. Oh, that'd be fun.
And then we have seven years. Good luck, right? That's the

Speaker 5 this is a classic example of if you've just tuned in, you have no idea what this podcast is about or why. It's a what the fuck moment for all of you.
Don't worry, we'll get to the murder.

Speaker 5 Don't worry about it. It's going to get real dark.
So calm down if you're really into dark stuff.

Speaker 5 And then we're going to talk about the keepers.

Speaker 5 So this is, we've been, people have been asking us over and over, obviously, on social media to talk about these, things, these things that come up that are true crime, these TV shows, these TV shows, or like, yeah.

Speaker 5 And the keepers, so I watched it. I did the thing where I started watching it in the afternoon and then stayed up all night watching the entire thing.

Speaker 5 I think I texted you and was like, I'm about to start this. I think we like press play at the same time.
Yeah, we did.

Speaker 5 And then we texted for the beginning, and then I think we both stopped because we were both just like so engrossed in it. Yeah.
Well, I had to leave. Oh, or you had to leave.

Speaker 5 I stopped. We stopped talking, but then I had to pause it.
And I was so mad. I had to go to a show.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 all I wanted to do was come back and keep watching it. It was, it's the most amazing series about, it starts off, you think you know what it's about.

Speaker 5 Here's how I keep explaining it to people who don't know.

Speaker 5 A nun gets killed in the late 60s. She's a high school teacher.
She's a wonderful person.

Speaker 5 You think that's what it's about. Yeah.
And then

Speaker 5 next episode and the rest of it is priest, who is the principal? Fucking all the little, the high school students. Did she get killed? Are they, are they, this is exactly how I explain it.

Speaker 5 This is not how I explain it. Usually I've had two white wines before I explain it, and it's a lot of fun.
And you're yelling over music in a bar. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And I'm yelling at somebody who doesn't want, doesn't care about true crime. Right.
Okay. So you go.
Well, no, I mean, it is all that. I think he was the counselor, though.
Okay.

Speaker 5 So, but he was definitely like the parishioner. I don't know.
You tell me. Yeah, I'll tell you all about it.
So in the Catholic Church.

Speaker 5 let's start from the beginning. They brought him in.
So it's a Catholic high school in Baltimore. All girls.
All girls high school. And they bring this guy in as a counselor.
And

Speaker 5 so the girls get called into the counselor's office. And

Speaker 5 the way they tell, okay, first of all, let's just say this. You meet these two women who had gone to that school, were taught by Sister Kathy, the nun that got murdered.

Speaker 5 And they are trying to find out her cold case, how she got murdered, why she got murdered, what happened. Because one of them is having these memories, repressed.

Speaker 5 She's an old, you know, she's in her 40s. She's a mom and a wife with the fucking best husband.
Am I wrong? He's like the best. Yes, that's a different.
I'm talking about this too.

Speaker 5 That everyone's saying are the Karen and Georgia Murder Leno characters. The actual investigate, the investigative, and they're the best.
They're the best.

Speaker 5 All you want to do is sit at that kitchen table with them and talk about this stuff. Kat Solon said she's going to be the red-headed one for Halloween.

Speaker 5 Like, that's the best thing I've ever heard in my life. That woman is so awesome.
I wish I'd looked up her name, but

Speaker 5 they're just basically going, we loved our teacher. We want to know, we don't think it's right that she was murdered and that the case went cold.
We want to know what happened.

Speaker 5 And in their digging, they start finding out these things. Simultaneously, but not.
not knowing across town, the woman George was talking about starts having

Speaker 5 repressed memories start coming to her of things that happened to her.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 when she breaks down crying at her table,

Speaker 5 after she tells a very detailed, I mean, these two women who come forward who are the Jane Does are so brave, I can't even handle it.

Speaker 5 Yeah, because what happened to them, it's the thing, and this is the thing that happens. It's so upsetting when you watch these like Catholic church molestation stories.

Speaker 5 It's the absolute abuse of power and the predatory nature of these priests or, you know, whatever, whoever the story is about.

Speaker 5 But in this case, this priest who would pick girls who he knew had single parents. He knew their parents had been recently divorced.
He knew that they were maybe going through some stuff themselves.

Speaker 5 Maybe even

Speaker 5 already being molested.

Speaker 5 So it was like, well, it's almost like if you in the wild had to be like, here are the steps of how children, how people pick children get molested because these people have free reign and it's like point for point the grooming and the threatening and these.

Speaker 5 It's just so awful. It's awful.
And it's the thing of back then, because I think it was 1970, right? I think it was like 68 or 69 when she got murdered. Okay.
Maybe so.

Speaker 5 But yeah, but basically in that, in that Rome, this was back when

Speaker 5 if a priest called you to his office, you just get up and leave class and go. And nobody around would go,

Speaker 5 why is he calling you there? You don't need to be alone in an office with that man or whatever. There was nothing quite the opposite, where

Speaker 5 they had complete power over where children went, what they did when they went. Like, you were special if you got called to the office almost.
Yes.

Speaker 5 And, oh, and the worst part is that priest found the woman

Speaker 5 who you were talking about. Oh, we should know these people's names.
And now I can't remember, but the woman who broke down when she was telling that story,

Speaker 5 she went to him and in confession, confessed to him that she had been molested as a child. And that's how he knew to pick on her.
And he said, she asked for forgiveness.

Speaker 5 And he's like, I don't know if you, I don't know if we can do that. And I'll help you get for, oh, it's listening.
Listen, let me tell you this. As a Catholic,

Speaker 5 a long, long life Catholic, sorry, did I yell? Stephen just pulled his thing off.

Speaker 5 But let me tell you this. The way confession works is you go into that box, you spill your guts, and the priest who is there as a,

Speaker 5 as like a, what do you call that almost like the voice of god right

Speaker 5 he's there to go because in the bible it says you ask for forgiveness and you get it so and people know this now but it makes me so mad because in that moment when he said i don't know if god can forgive you ding ding ding red let no that it's not yours to say well it's scary to know that he forgives everything and except the sense of everything that you've done.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Anyways, I think The Keepers is one of the fucking best one documentaries.
I am engrossed. I have 20 fucking minutes left and I almost don't want to get through it.
On that last episode? Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yes, because you don't want to let it go. It's like seven episodes, I think.
And it is just, yeah.

Speaker 5 The reason I found the YouTube thing is because I needed a break because I was so fucking engrossed and depressed about it. It's so heavy.
It's so much to like absorb. Yeah.

Speaker 5 But I will also say this, the person, I believe the director's name was Ryan White.

Speaker 5 The one name I remember. And kudos to him because in those interviews, when people start crying, they must have felt a level of comfort talking to him about this.

Speaker 5 And the way he conducted those interviews, not only when he was talking to the victims, did they really share so much of themselves and like obviously feel comfortable enough to express their real emotions, which is a very difficult thing to do.

Speaker 5 But then, like, later on, when he was talking to that guy who is now in charge, the Baltimore police chief,

Speaker 5 where he was just hearing these things and then going, yeah, we'll have to look. But you saw on his face, face,

Speaker 5 he was like, what the hell is going on that he's being informed about how these cases were handled in the past. And then the interview with the guy who's a suspect.
Yes. That old dude.
Oh, my God.

Speaker 5 And the other thing that drives me crazy, of course, because this is our fucking thing that we hate, is that the only reason the statute of limitations isn't up on this molestation charge is because

Speaker 5 it's a repressed memory that just came through. So if they have to prove in court, not only that they were molested, but that they just remembered it.
Yes.

Speaker 5 Which is must be impossible to prove in itself. But how sick is that? Yeah.
How sick is that that if you didn't remember it later, you

Speaker 5 couldn't prosecute, you couldn't go after this person.

Speaker 5 The statute of limitations makes me fucking ill. And I think someday we're going to be,

Speaker 5 if the fucking apocalypse hasn't come already, we're going to be. I feel like that is changing in some places.

Speaker 5 I don't know about Baltimore, but yeah, when they all start going, and it's not just that school or just that specific priest, but there's a part near the end where a lot of people are going to talk about how

Speaker 5 that law needs to change.

Speaker 5 There's a lot of victims, I think, who get

Speaker 5 who get their power back by changing laws, and I think that's a big one. Unfortunately, most of those are never retroactive.
Right.

Speaker 5 Which is such a, again, is such a fucking bummer and it pisses me off. It's insane.

Speaker 5 Especially because, you know, with these sexual molestations and even, you know, rapes and all these things, it's like victims don't want to come forward right away because it's traumatic and it's opening them again.

Speaker 5 But once they get their strength and are older, but by then. Well, it's the crazy part is everything becomes dependent on a person who's been victimized.

Speaker 5 It's really amazing to having done this podcast for the short amount of time that we've done it,

Speaker 5 like how much I've come to learn and understand about the victims and the positions they get put in and how much is put on them.

Speaker 5 So it's like, so no one's going, I mean, not that no one is, but it's, it was like, so it's all just depending on whether or not this girl who has been traumatized and victimized and truly like her entire childhood has been completely ruined and screwed up and she's just blocked entire things out and all this stuff.

Speaker 5 But it's all just on her shoulders. Yeah.
Nothing is on that fucking monster priest.

Speaker 5 Well, it's that thing of like innocent until proven guilty, the person being accused, but the person who's accusing them is lying until proven otherwise, almost, which is just not, it's like, I know innocent until proven guilty is a strong thing in our society and it's needed and necessary, but it's that that means that the person who is bringing the charges is a liar until proven otherwise.

Speaker 5 Well, when you have those kinds of lawyers, the lawyers that were the lawyers for the Catholic Church that were defending this priest,

Speaker 5 I don't know how they sleep at night. I don't know how they sleep at night, especially after this, after this, I'm just going to say podcast, after this series where you're just like,

Speaker 5 the way they were arguing and the things that they did and said, and the fact that ultimately the fact that they are supposed to be representatives of the church

Speaker 5 is just the ultimate hypocrisy and the shittiest. Just like, what are you fighting for? You got to look at that.

Speaker 5 Like,

Speaker 5 you're basically accusing these people of like they're going to sacrifice their whole life and credibility for like because they're trying to chisel money out of you. I don't think so.

Speaker 5 They can't even come out as their real names or Jan Doe because they will be fucking attacked by not just the church, but people who are Catholic.

Speaker 5 Like it's just every fucking, every episode, don't skip one. There's like a new revelation that's fucking incredible, but it's really hard to watch.
It's very hard to watch.

Speaker 5 And also, it's pre-spotlight. So like,

Speaker 5 they were really the first ones that made an actual dent and a mark. And I remember, but I just didn't separate the cities because I remember the spotlight things happening in Boston.
Right.

Speaker 5 But these ones that happened in Baltimore, they, this Jane Doe, these two women really were the ones that came forward and like started making a dent at least. I had never heard of it.
I mean,

Speaker 5 it's incredible. It's an incredible show.
Got to watch it. It's amazing.
Yeah. Next week on Shows We Love, we'll talk about Mommy, Dead, and Dearest.
That's right. I know we owe you guys.
Yes.

Speaker 5 However, the keepers came and it was just like oh my all my attention is here amazing yeah yeah okay

Speaker 5 how much how much longer do we have

Speaker 5 seven minutes episode over um who goes first

Speaker 5 first questions uh karen does this week okay okay

Speaker 1 And we are back. So this has to be before the time that Elvis barfed on Steven's laptop, right? And I had to buy him a new one.
I think we were in Australia for that one. That's right.
We were away.

Speaker 1 So it was a different cat barf. Yeah, this one was more, I think the cats were kind of looking at the loft like that's where they can really go and get a bunch of stuff out of their system.

Speaker 1 Right?

Speaker 1 I mean, literally an hour and a half ago, I cleaned up cat barf. So there's no, there's no rhyme or reason.

Speaker 1 Frank stood up in the middle of the night and did a several huge wheezy coughs and then he coughed something up. And then we all just kind of, I was like, yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That's pets.
Is it bad podcasting to say the worst part now is of having a dog is that he wants, he wants to eat the barf? That's not good podcasting. No one wants to fucking hear that, right?

Speaker 1 Is it off topic for the rewind episodes? I'm hard to say. I've known this 10 years plus.
I should know not to talk about that. I mean, but it's part of our lives.

Speaker 1 It's part of the, how many items have we gotten even on this tour from people in the meet and greets with cat stuff? Oh my God.

Speaker 1 My cat now, Mo, comes to and looks in my bag when I get home now from tour because I brought him so many catnip toys

Speaker 1 that are shaped like weapons. That's right.
It's part of the culture of this podcast. That's right.
We love it. Speaking of.
Just like YouTube is part of the culture of this podcast.

Speaker 1 I love that we're talking about it back then. Like, who would watch YouTube? I know.
YouTube and makeup tutorials. Like, that's now basically what your life revolves around.
My God.

Speaker 1 It's the TikTok version, the cleaner, way more influency. Yeah.
I need to buy this right now version.

Speaker 1 I've started scrolling past like my, even my favorite dermatologists that I follow and like estheticians, I can't keep being told that, nope, not that one, this one. No, not that one, this one.

Speaker 1 No, not that. I can't keep doing that.
I've got them all. I've collected them all.
If they don't work, then I'm fucked. That's fine.
There's just nothing to be done.

Speaker 1 Also, I'm starting to get influenced by the de-influencers who are like, you don't need this. Oh, yeah.
And then you're like, but I already bought it. I know.

Speaker 1 But it is kind of nice nice to see that where people are kind of like, hey, look, this is like, they'll go through all the newest items at Sephora and be like, you don't need another glossy lip balm.

Speaker 1 Totally. Or like, don't do it.
This ingredient is not going to help you fix this problem.

Speaker 1 That doesn't work that way. You know, we're like, there's no such, nature's Botox.
Botox is natural. Like, it's Botox.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
That's

Speaker 1 I like the de-influencer thing. I do too.
It's a real relief. And we are true de-influencers.
We are nothing if not de-influencers.

Speaker 1 So if you want to see us on YouTube, you can go over to myfavorate murder.video or search my favorite murder on YouTube because we've got all kinds of videos up there.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we have our own channel now. Isn't that exciting? Yeah, brag, brag.

Speaker 1 I was cringing when I was listening to this because there's so much that's changed culturally since we talked about you don't have to open the door to police and they need a warrant. And, you know,

Speaker 1 like, oh, that was 2017 like so different so different and also just it was the end of you know there's a lot of people and that the kind of criticism that we used to get where we'd talk about the police or like you know I would talk about like my family that was in the San Francisco Police Department or whatever and people would be like you guys are you know part of the problem and it was hard to imagine what that meant and now we know full well what it looks like and what it is and it's on the streets and it's this overstepping and out of control and it's just like yeah it's good intentions don't change things and don't really matter in the scope of things so yeah you know they're gonna invade portland they're gonna invade portland as the newest insane blitzkrieg it's just like what's happening yeah either we're living in a fugue state or we're living in a fucking fascist fascism state.

Speaker 1 It's number two. It's straight up number two.
I love that you started off with like, is talking about cat barf bad podcasting?

Speaker 1 And it's like, or reminding everybody of just how we have so quickly slipped down this

Speaker 1 slippery slope? Wow. Those are the deep cut people.
That's true. That want to hear.
Well, because it's weird to hear that and understand 10 years later how naive what we're saying is.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's, you could also do that with your, if you recorded your family dinners, the exact same thing would happen a decade later and you re-listen to it. But yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's why we're doing these rewinds ultimately. And that's why it took us so long to like figure out how to do it correctly because we knew that shit like this would come up and we'd have to

Speaker 1 hear it and feel it and cringe through it and listen. And then the point is to correct it and to acknowledge it.

Speaker 1 So that's really what these, we'd rather you listen to this and us acknowledging that than this

Speaker 1 naked, you know, way back when.

Speaker 1 Yes. Right.
Right. I think it's they, these early episodes really do need like the director's cut audio guide because what the hell? Yeah.
Context. We, we totally get it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I just also have to say that I really wish I was being more erudite as I spoke. I'm so goddamn tired

Speaker 1 right now that like the words are not coming to my brain. Yeah.
I forgot how exhausting touring is

Speaker 1 on your bone. Like I, there, every day we get back from tour, I sleep the rest of the day.
Yeah. Like in

Speaker 1 a like coma coma sleep and I forgot. And I talked to my therapist about it.
And I'm like, I knew I didn't like touring. Like I knew that.
And yet I did it again. And she

Speaker 1 blamed it on dissociation, which I appreciate.

Speaker 1 But also there's more to it. It's like we over, we oversimplify.
I love live shows. I don't like touring.
Yes, exactly. You know, exactly.
If we could only, if we could only have it brought to us.

Speaker 1 But it, and it's also, we're tired because of the highs. It's not all lows.

Speaker 1 It's like these incredible emotional moments that we get to share with people, the entire audience, and then people face to face for a couple hours after the show. It's like,

Speaker 1 there's a lot. There's a lot going on.
It's very much like, yeah, like overstimulation. Yeah.
Just peak emotion. Like imagine being at a wedding every day.
It's kind of what it's like.

Speaker 1 And like you're like, you're not the bride or groom, but you're high up on the, you know, maybe you're the mother of the bride. So like you have a lot of duties and it's exhausting.

Speaker 1 Now you have to do that two days in a row, come back, work, go back and do it two days in a row. Yeah.
Right. Yes.

Speaker 1 It's then you start, you stop parsing the good and the bad and you're just like, this is too hard or whatever, but it is, that's just the tired part. It's like, it actually is pretty incredible.

Speaker 1 And it is a thing where we wouldn't be able to know the truth about what this podcast means to anybody if we didn't do this. Because what we see online and hear online is just a version of something.

Speaker 1 It's just a, we don't even know where it's coming from. We don't know the source.

Speaker 1 But when you have somebody standing there in front of you, like holding your hands, and the girl who had the sign that said, I wish you knew we were best friends.

Speaker 1 And then she brought it through. And I was like, that makes me want to cry.
It's, that's the sweetest, kind of loveliest idea. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Let's get into the part where you wrote a wish on a piece of paper and put it in your door. Oh my God, little Georgia.
I just want to go give her a hug because

Speaker 1 my expectations for myself were so low and so basic

Speaker 1 that I didn't even wish for anything bigger than that. You know, I never, ever have.
I've never wished for anything more than like the here and now. Right.

Speaker 1 And, you know, the here and now and the knowledge to be grateful for it. And so I did that in that door and it quadrupled at least.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Kind of cool.
Yeah. It's very cool.
My life is so fucking incredibly different than it was when we recorded this.

Speaker 1 But the same people are in it that I love and everyone's pretty healthy still, except for Elvis.

Speaker 1 Well, he came in unhealthy. He came in as an old cat.
He did.

Speaker 1 Plus his heart. Yeah.
Yeah. It's pretty sweet.
Yeah, for sure. All right.
Well, then I guess let's just get into true crime. I mean, like, that's what we're here for.
That's right. All right.

Speaker 1 Let's get into Karen's story from 2017 about the vampire rapist.

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Goodbye.

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You will not want to miss this. Goodbye.
Goodbye.

Speaker 5 All right. It's my turn.
Yes, it's my turn to shine. Now, this is the suggestion.
This could be one of our ones where

Speaker 5 somebody suggested this to both of us.

Speaker 5 So I was actually thinking as I was writing this, I was like, what if Georgia saw this one too? When did they suggest it? I can't remember. Maybe a week ago.
On Twitter.

Speaker 5 It's

Speaker 5 at Miss New Judy suggested it to both of us.

Speaker 5 And anytime people suggest them to us, I open it up and I look at the thing. And then I'm like, sometimes I'll go, like, I should do that.
And I never think about it again.

Speaker 5 And sometimes I go, I know that one already, or whatever. I've started bookmarking them in my,

Speaker 5 so when I'm frantically on Tuesday morning going, what do I do? What should I do? Yeah, you have those ones waiting for you. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Well, this one, when I opened it up, I immediately was so entranced and horrified that I was like, this is going to be my next one. This sounds fun.
So thank you, Miss New Judy, for suggesting it.

Speaker 5 It's so good. It's John Crutchley, the vampire rapist.
Love it already. Have you heard? No.
Okay.

Speaker 5 Clearly, I didn't see that that tweet

Speaker 5 all right so

Speaker 5 this took place

Speaker 5 um

Speaker 5 around thanks uh it was thanksgiving in 1985 in malabar brevard county florida which is so brevard county and malabar i guess i looked it up on a map so it'd know what i was talking about it's right on the coast it's on the east coast of florida and it's uh what it's what it's 77 miles southeast of orlando so it's basically middle going toward the bottom, but right on the water.

Speaker 5 All right, so this is what happened. It's Thanksgiving 1985, and a man is driving down the road and he sees a young woman totally naked.
Her hands are

Speaker 5 handcuffed and her ankles are handcuffed and she's hopping down the road. Oh my god.
So he pulls over. He gets her into his car and she's totally weak.
She's covered in dirt. She's panicked.

Speaker 5 She points to the house nearby and says, Remember that house to him. Honey.
Yes. He drives her to his house where his wife is.
They call the cops and an ambulance.

Speaker 5 And she gets taken to the hospital. And the doctors find out that 40 to 45 percent of her blood is gone.
No. Yes.
So she has been, and she then tells them the story of what's happened to her.

Speaker 5 And it goes a little something like this: one, two, one, two, three, four.

Speaker 5 Okay, so

Speaker 5 she was hitchhiking. It's, you know, it's 1985.
It hadn't been totally taken out of our society yet. She's hitchhiking down the road.
A guy pulls over. He's wearing a business suit.

Speaker 5 He's wearing a suit. He looks, you know, he looks like a professional businessman is all she said.

Speaker 5 And he's just very casually is like, where do you need to go? I'll take you there. She jumps into the car.
As they're driving, he goes, sorry, I just have to stop at my house. Really quick.

Speaker 5 Jump out and roll. I mean, jump out then because

Speaker 5 you've now deviated from the plan.

Speaker 5 Only give them one deviation from the plan, I would say. And then you're not familiar with your surroundings.
I mean, not that it's either way, but then you're not like.

Speaker 5 You're not on your way to the place you want to go. Right, I know how to get there.
Yeah, exactly right. So

Speaker 5 they pull into his driveway. He invites her in.
She says, no, I'll wait in the car. He says, fine.
He goes into the house for a little while. He comes back out.

Speaker 5 And then he goes, sorry, I just have to get something out of the back seat really quick. He goes into the back seat behind the passenger passenger seat.

Speaker 5 And then he wraps a cord around her neck and begins to strangle her. He chokes her out in the car.
She wakes up. The next thing she knows, she's on the kitchen counter.

Speaker 5 She's tied down to the kitchen counter naked. And

Speaker 5 she is blindfolded with tape so she can see underneath the bottom of it. Something like material laying flat.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 So she can see that she's on a kitchen counter naked. He's standing next to her naked.
Oh, dear. And

Speaker 5 he has set up a video camera on a tripod. So he's videotaping it.
Oh, fuck. He proceeds to rape her on that table.
Then he explains to her that he's a vampire and she feels a prick in her arm.

Speaker 5 And he begins to drain blood from her arm and drink it. How?

Speaker 5 How? What at that moment is she like?

Speaker 5 Oh,

Speaker 5 fuck. Yeah.

Speaker 5 What level of, so you're probably in shock shock when something like that happens to you, but then I think things would just get real black and white.

Speaker 5 Like you'd just be like, I need to get out of here now. How do I get out of here? How do I get out of here? Yeah.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 basically,

Speaker 5 I talked through that and then lost my place. Oh, sorry.

Speaker 5 No, not.

Speaker 5 Okay. So

Speaker 5 then he takes her and he puts her in the bathtub.

Speaker 5 And later that day, he comes back, he gets her, takes her out of the bathtub, puts her on his bed, tranquilizes her, some strong drug, and rapes her again, then drains her blood again and drinks it again.

Speaker 5 Oh my God. Brings her back to the bathtub.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 the next day, she wakes up and he does it again. And then he tells her he has to leave the house, but not to try to escape because his brother's there and he'll kill her if she tries to escape.

Speaker 5 She hears the car leave and then she manages. so she's now had her blood drained three times.
Oh my gosh. She manages to get up and to

Speaker 5 kind of stand and pull herself up to the tiny bathroom window that's above the bathtub. Can you imagine how dizzy she is at that point? I mean, and also just like

Speaker 5 the amount of times I say I'm tired when I have done fuck all all day long is shocking.

Speaker 5 And then I think about things like this where when you have to like dig from the bottom and like really power yourself through, it's like, I hope I'm going to be able to do that.

Speaker 5 I got up up this morning and got really dizzy and

Speaker 5 like and I hadn't even done anything and there's no blood stolen from my personal

Speaker 5 blood. I have 100%.

Speaker 5 100% no. Probably.
What if Elvis is drinking your blood at night?

Speaker 5 That's kind of cute. Yeah, that's how, that's why you're so bonded.
Let's go.

Speaker 5 She pulls herself up. She sees that the lock on this bathroom window is broken.

Speaker 5 So she opens it up and she fucking pulls herself up, somehow pulls herself up and shimmies out of this window and falls down to the ground outside of the window. This is Mary Vincent level badassery.

Speaker 5 Yes, it's amazing. And it's, yeah, it's just pure.

Speaker 5 She knows that this can't go on. Like this isn't, she doesn't have time.
Right.

Speaker 5 What I love is that she, being told there's somebody that's going to kill her, does it anyway because she knows it's bullshit. It's fucking bullshit.
So

Speaker 5 there's a cop in this one of the

Speaker 5 like shows that I watched about this guy, a cop who says, if you saw this window, you wouldn't understand how a person got out of it. Wow.

Speaker 5 Like she made herself fit through a tiny bathroom window and got out. And that's when, and then she crawled to the road and finally got herself up.

Speaker 5 And when she started hopping, they said a couple of the, there's different, on Murderpedia, a couple of the articles say different things, but one says that a couple trucks passed her before anybody picked her up.

Speaker 5 And then finally, that guy picked her up.

Speaker 5 Which also that. How hard would it be to get into a

Speaker 5 strange man's car? Also, I have that thinking of, and this is probably from Goonies: of like, what if it was the guy coming home that was the vampire? Yes, exactly right.

Speaker 5 You get into the car of the person that got you there in the first place. And it's like, to me, that's like the worst horror movie of like

Speaker 5 almost made it. Yeah, yeah, but she makes it.
So

Speaker 5 the doctors at the hospital say if she had stayed there one more night, she'd definitely be dead because you, there was so much blood gone that they kind of were amazed she got herself out of there.

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 5 uh,

Speaker 5 so she, when she got into the car, I told you that already, right? Where she said, remember that house, which is my favorite because it's just like she was on, she was like getting shit done.

Speaker 5 So, they go, This girl is a vintage murderer now. Yeah, she really is.
You know what I mean? Yes, she's taking care of business. Yeah, she knows, she knows the signs and signals.

Speaker 5 Yeah, so she they go back to the house and um, they have a

Speaker 5 search warrant to go back into the house. Sorry, I've completely lost lost my place.
You might have to fix this part, Stephen.

Speaker 5 Well, I'm impressed right now that you just like, I see you and I'm watching you, and this is all off the top of your head.

Speaker 5 Yes, because it's so, when those ones happen where it's like, it's not just a standard,

Speaker 5 awful thing, but it goes into the world of almost a cult where you're like, These people, it's when you see the house in the video, it's a white house on the side of the road

Speaker 5 that looks kind of nice. It looks like a nice family lives there.

Speaker 5 And inside is like nightmare town beyond anyone's, like you wouldn't even know what was happening to you if somebody was draining and drinking your blood. Yeah.
Insanity. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Okay. So police get a search warrant

Speaker 5 of 39-year-old John Crutchley's home. His wife and child had been out of town for the Thanksgiving weekend.
Uh-uh. Uh-huh.
So he's a family man.

Speaker 5 Oh my God. When they get there, they find the video camera equipment that she described, but the tape inside had been recorded over.
Had he already come home and he knew she was gone? Yes. Okay.

Speaker 5 Probably because so this videotape is recorded over. Right.

Speaker 5 They also find and photograph stacks of credit cards in other people's names and they find a pile of jewelry hidden in the back of a closet. It's all women's jewelry.

Speaker 5 And so, and they photograph that. So they arrest John Crutchley

Speaker 5 on kidnapping and rape charges.

Speaker 5 So the police in Brevard County realize they have an advanced predator, and this is not standard fare for them. So they call the FBI.
And

Speaker 5 who shows up but Robert Ressler. So Robert Ressler, we've talked about a couple of times, but he's the famous FBI agent who worked in the behavioral science unit.
He worked there for years.

Speaker 5 He's the guy that developed VICAP that basically enabled cops to start communicating on a national database to put in the MOs of killers so that uncaught cold cases and uncaught crimes

Speaker 5 that people could enter them in and go, is there anybody else that likes to drain the blood of young women?

Speaker 5 That's Robert Russell. What a badass motherfucker.
He should have like,

Speaker 5 you know, B-A-M-F. You know, it's the last letters of your name when you're like a doctor or like PhD.
Instead of MD. Yeah.
He's B-A-M-F.

Speaker 5 Badass motherfucker.

Speaker 5 So they, thank God, they call him in and he immediately has a profile going for this guy. And he immediately tells the cops, this is is an organized serial killer who has definitely killed before.

Speaker 5 Wow. Because you don't have a person that's this comfortable picking somebody off the street and doing this crazy shit in his home.
He didn't even take her somewhere neutral. He took her to his home.

Speaker 5 He's done it before.

Speaker 5 This is the result of escalation, not the beginning. Exactly right.
Yeah, this isn't your first swing into, I think I'm a vampire. What should I do? Or I think I'm a rapist.
How do I do this? Yeah.

Speaker 5 Let me do what I want all the time. So he, and he also, I'm pretty sure Jack Crawford from The Silence of Lamb is based on him.
He's the one.

Speaker 5 Robert Russeller's the one that wrote a book called

Speaker 5 Whoever Fights Monsters. Oh, yeah.
I was looking at that from another murder. There's so much information in there.
Yeah, it's supposed to be the best book. I've never read it, though.

Speaker 5 I'm going to read it. That's going to be my next book.
Me too. Let's buy it together.
Okay, good. Should we listen to it? I wonder if it's a good audiobook.

Speaker 5 I like the idea of listening to it. Let's do it.
It's so much easier. It's so much easier.
I'm in my car so much more than I'm in my reading room.

Speaker 5 I promise your house will be so clean as soon as you get into an audiobook that you're into. Yeah, that's very true.
Okay, so Whoever Fights Monsters by Robert Ressler. Let's do a read-along everyone.

Speaker 5 Fuck yeah.

Speaker 5 But he's also just the guy that, like, he put it, he puts it all together in that super interesting scientific way where it's the guy that's like serial killers are

Speaker 5 90% or more are white men between the ages of 28 and 30, whatever. Like, that's this guy.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Those are fascinating when they're so correct. Like, he does this kind of business.
He's in this kind of thing. He has this family.
He has, it's just like.

Speaker 5 And then they find the guy and it's like every, almost every time it seems like they match. And I keep thinking like, no fucking way, that's crazy and it's too simple.
And then it's like, exactly.

Speaker 5 Ding, ding, ding. Yeah.
Robert Ressler, A plus.

Speaker 5 So, okay.

Speaker 5 Excuse me. So they start because once they bring him in and he tells them this, they start looking at missing persons' cases around Brevard County.

Speaker 5 And they find that there have been four dead unidentified women's bodies that have been discovered in that county in the previous year. Wait, that didn't immediately ring some bells.

Speaker 5 I mean, I don't know how big that place is, but yeah, that's fucking insane. Yeah, in the area, they had in the one year four dead women that they didn't know who they were.
I can't breathe.

Speaker 5 Then Russell notices that John Crutchley has moved a lot and changed jobs a lot. So they start looking at places he used to live.

Speaker 5 They look into his last known addresses and they see see there's a number of cold cases involving missing and

Speaker 5 the unidentified bodies of young women.

Speaker 5 So they start

Speaker 5 basically gathering up all this information.

Speaker 5 So just a quick background.

Speaker 5 The saddest sentence that I've ever read on

Speaker 5 Wikipedia is is about this, about John Crutchley. It's the beginning of his Wikipedia entry, and it's born to a well-to-do family in Pittsburgh.
John Crutchley was a friendless child.

Speaker 5 A friendless child. Oh, how can that be?

Speaker 5 And also, when you look at his picture, if you've ever seen the movie Rent, there's an actor named Anthony Rapp who has like strawberry blonde hair.

Speaker 5 He could play John Crutchley. He would have to get creep out makeup done and probably lose a lot of, like, not that he's in any, he's perfectly fit person, but he doesn't have the same

Speaker 5 exact face, but he's basically matches that. So it's he'll do it for a roll.
But anyway, it's, it's just he looks,

Speaker 5 he has like panic eyes. He has dark eyes and blonde hair, which is scary, right? He is such a good descriptor.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 And also the really thick, like 80s glass, yeah, 80s aviator glasses, not sunglasses, but just glasses glasses. The pervert glasses.
Pervert glasses, but not transition lenses, interestingly enough.

Speaker 5 All right.

Speaker 5 Excuse me. So anyway,

Speaker 5 when he, so he went to college, he got his degree in shit. Where did it go? Oh, I don't have that here.
He got his degree in

Speaker 5 physics, I think, or something like that. Then he went to graduate school and he got his degree in electronic engineering management or something like that.

Speaker 5 His first job out of graduate school was at Delco Electronics in Kokomo, Indiana.

Speaker 5 And he left there relatively soon after because there was an investigation made by the company into missing materials that they thought he had stolen.

Speaker 5 Excuse me.

Speaker 5 So just right away,

Speaker 5 a lot of question marks about this guy. So then he moves to Fairfax County, Virginia in the mid-70s.
That's where his mother lived. And he gets remarried.

Speaker 5 He got married in college and that marriage ended relatively quickly.

Speaker 5 So mid-70s, he gets remarried, and he works for several high-tech firms in the DC area, including TRW, ICA, and Logicon Processes. I don't know what any of those fucking things are.

Speaker 5 I mean, how could we ever?

Speaker 5 So, about this time, when he's working at these companies, several teenage girls in the area disappeared. No.

Speaker 5 In Fairfax, Virginia, a 25-year-old woman named Deborah Fitzjohn went missing, and her remains were later found in a remote area by a hunter. She was last seen in Crutchley's mobile home.
Oh, dear.

Speaker 5 Which I don't understand. If he's like an engineer at these high-end companies, why is he living in a mobile home park? Maybe it's a fucking Lexus of mobile homes.
Oh, true. True, true.

Speaker 5 From 1979 through 1983, Crutchley worked for a Washington-based defense contractor and had access to Norfolk Naval Air Stations.

Speaker 5 And during that time, a 23-year-old Navy messenger named Pamela Ann Kimbrew disappeared from the base on March 25th, 1982. She was later found dead in a car, submerged at the end of a seaplane ramp.

Speaker 5 Her killer tied her arms behind her with clothesline and then tried to strangle her.

Speaker 5 There was a green ski mask and fingerprints that didn't belong to her or her boyfriend in the car. And then a 21-year-old Navy clerk named Carol Ann Malnar disappeared February 6th, 1983.

Speaker 5 Her decomposed body was found three months later, partially buried under rocks of a seawall at the Norfolk base, and she had been strangled.

Speaker 5 So there's all these cold cases around the areas where he lives. There's so many, and I've never heard of him.
Yeah, I know. Well, maybe because of this.
So

Speaker 5 when the cops go back in for a second, they get a second search warrant and they go in to seize all that stuff that they had seen the first time around. That stack of credit cards is gone.

Speaker 5 And that pile of women's jewelry is gone. They can't find it.

Speaker 5 But they should have taken it. And then the tapes are, they can't find any tapes that have stuff on it.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 5 So, because I think the first time around, they're just like,

Speaker 5 who knows? Like a search warrant isn't the same as like a search and seizures. Maybe.

Speaker 5 Maybe. There's got to be reasons and answers.
But they were, I think it's that thing of they're taking pictures of it. They know you have it.
Right.

Speaker 5 But then it's gone anyway. And it's that kind of like, well, you didn't catch me with it.
So there's nothing you can do.

Speaker 5 Okay. So anyway,

Speaker 5 they were unable to find any hard evidence that tied him to any of those cold cases that I just talked about.

Speaker 5 But he was brought up on charges of kidnapping, rape, grievous bodily harm for the exsanguination, and drug possession. And he got those last two charges, plea bargained down.

Speaker 5 in exchange for agreeing to plead guilty to kidnapping and rape. So they basically cut out the fact that he drained and drank her blood and

Speaker 5 the drugs he gave her so that he would just plead guilty and like they could move it along.

Speaker 5 And in court, the defense tried to present him as only being guilty of having kinky sexual tastes and an interest in bondage.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Fuck.
They referred to the 19-year-old victim as a Manson girl who was, in fact, soliciting him for kinky sex when they met.

Speaker 5 How did I know that would happen? That she was into kinky sex and she wanted it this way.

Speaker 5 Like, how could they know that? No. How did I know that that was going to be, that's how they were going to turn it around? Yeah.
Because that's kind of standard failure. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Where it's, it's almost like the most offensive thing that could happen is the way they blow it up so that now you're thinking about that instead, like the idea that they call her a Manson girl. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Where it's like, it's 1980 fucking five. Like, she's not a Manson girl.
This isn't the, this summer of love is long, long over. Right.

Speaker 5 And whether or not she's a sex worker, um, pretty sure that if she agreed to get into someone's car, having her blood drained out of her body and being held and repeatedly raped was in no way and like you and I could be called like serial killer girls because we're into like

Speaker 5 you know so maybe she's fascinated by

Speaker 5 Manson and reads about him but that doesn't mean she's like supports him like I read about World War II but it doesn't mean I'm into Hitler yeah but I don't even think I think they were just using that as a way to label her you know what I mean

Speaker 5 just to say she's basically throwaway. It's just a different way to say she's trash, which is the bullshit part.

Speaker 5 Here's a bigger bullshit part. Crutchley's wife testified.
I was wondering where she was.

Speaker 5 Well, here she is, and here's what she had to say. She says, This crime is nothing more than SM that got out of hand.

Speaker 5 And they ended up bringing in, he'd stacks of three by five cards of different women's names and the SM and bondage, like sex play that they liked to engage in. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 5 Because he was was apparently,

Speaker 5 did it all the time. And many of the people who had been sexual partners with him testified that they got into it because they were into SM.
And then he would not respond to the safe word.

Speaker 5 And he ended up, he would end up raping them or attacking them in a way, but they felt like they couldn't do anything about it. Right.

Speaker 5 Because it started out consensual for them and then turned to rape and there was nothing they could do.

Speaker 5 So they, you know, that's kind of an amazing thing is like that to be in a world like that where it is actually all about this kind of

Speaker 5 consensual agreement and that, like, it's an act of faith almost. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And then the only thing they can do is that when it turns out he's a serial killer vampire, they can be like, that happened to me, too.

Speaker 5 I didn't go to the cops, or I did go to the cops, and they were like, wait, so

Speaker 5 you answered this personal act or whatever. Yeah.
It's like if you're a drug dealer and you get robbed, you're not going to go to the cops and be like, I was stealing drugs and I got robbed. Yeah.

Speaker 5 That's right. Not that that's the same.

Speaker 5 Anyways. Yeah.
Anyway. So the wife comes out, she says says that, and then she,

Speaker 5 in reference to this 19-year-old girl being tied down to a kitchen counter, raped, and having her blood drained, the wife says that this had been a, quote, gentle rape, devoid of any overt brutality.

Speaker 5 She wasn't fucking there. And that's what she is testifying.

Speaker 5 What is it gentle rape? It's insanity, is what it is.

Speaker 5 Also, after the trial, this same wife told reporters that she couldn't quite understand what the fuss was since her husband was just, quote, a kinky sort of guy.

Speaker 5 Sad.

Speaker 5 Sad. Honey.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 here's the good part. Okay.
When they sentenced him, based on Robert Russeller's testimony at the sentencing hearing, where he says, this is absolutely an organized serial killer.

Speaker 5 We just haven't found the bodies. We're like coming in on the back end of his run.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 And, you know, and basically, and all the profiling that he gave, the judge in this case chose to exceed the state guidelines on rape and kidnap charges and sentenced John Crutchley to 25 years in life, to life in prison with 50 years subsequent parole.

Speaker 5 Fuck yeah, dude, dude.

Speaker 5 And then Robert Ressler calls this after the after the

Speaker 5 sentencing is over and he goes to jail. Robert Ressler's like, Yeah, he's going to get out early on good behavior.
That's how this goes. And that's exactly what happened.
He served 11 years. 11?

Speaker 5 What does 25 to life mean it well if you're a good behaver right if you don't if you don't kill anyone in prison so he serves 11 years he gets out in august of 1996 on good behavior but the the state the city officials of malabar and both malabar and fairfax virginia are like you're absolutely not coming here you can't you can't live here and you can't come here so um He has to go, they put him in a halfway house in Orlando, where he has to then live, serve out his 50 years parole, and begin to pay the restitution that he owes.

Speaker 5 And well, the day after he's released from prison, I hope this is what I think it is. He tests positive for marijuana and is arrested.
It's not what I thought it was going to be. No, but that's great.

Speaker 5 We're close.

Speaker 5 And because it's his third strike, the first being kidnapping and the second being rape, Pop is his third strike. He goes back to jail for life.
Shut your fucking mouth.

Speaker 5 So what I think happened is like the cops knew especially because of robert wrestler they're just like this guy's gonna slip through the cracks because rape isn't that big of a deal to our legal system and so they just stayed on him they tested him the pot that was in his system was from a party they threw him before he left jail so he had smoked pot in jail what oh so but i wonder if like are you on parole yet in jail though No, but you're you're if it's still in your system when you're on parole on day one.

Speaker 5 You test you test positive for marijuana it doesn't matter when it got into your system wow you're not allowed to have it in your system you shouldn't have had it at your party in jail dude so he goes back he goes back third strike he's in jail for life um and then in march of 2002 he's found dead in his cell with a plastic bag over his head and he died of asphyxiation wow but we don't know if it's suicide or not

Speaker 5 um

Speaker 5 but of note uh and i think this is also this is a fascinating part where i wish i was better at research I wish I took more time. And I wish there was like, I didn't really find

Speaker 5 that many articles about this in particular, but I would love to know.

Speaker 5 When he was arrested, he was found to be in possession of a great deal of highly classified information about naval weaponry and communications. What?

Speaker 5 Unnamed federal agencies other than the FBI considered opening an espionage case against him.

Speaker 5 And his employer, Harris Corporation, was involved not only with NASA research and launch facilities at Cape Canaveral, but also with other naval contractors and subcontractors.

Speaker 5 So he was stealing information, and that's why he got fired initially and sharing it with fucking the Russians. They don't know.
Probably.

Speaker 5 You just rewrote that ending.

Speaker 5 I mean, what it is, is we know that he is a thief. Aside from all these other ways that he's a criminal, he has no problem stealing shit from these.
And

Speaker 5 he was a very, very intelligent and very successful like computer engineer. Engineers are not stupid people

Speaker 5 over across the board. No.

Speaker 5 So that's why they were, you know, Russell was saying there's many bodies that are his responsibility that we just haven't found because he's so organized and he's been doing this so long.

Speaker 5 And his

Speaker 5 back then, when you moved around a lot, there was no way to trace anybody or anything.

Speaker 5 Also, in 1989, Crutchley's former lawyer stated that Crutchley was prepared to confess to at least three murders and lead police to the burial sites, but that negotiations between Crutchley and the prosecutors fell through.

Speaker 5 So he just didn't do it. What happened? It was like he wanted too much, or I don't know.
That's another thing that's fascinating.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 they think, I think that the thing on Murderpedia has victims like zero to thirty plus in terms of murder victims.

Speaker 5 They just, they could associate him in all these places that he's lived with girls just disappearing, but they don't know for sure.

Speaker 5 Dude, that's and even if it's like, okay, a few of them wish someone were murdered by someone else, that's still an insane amount. It's not going to be half, it's going to be at least,

Speaker 5 you know,

Speaker 5 yeah,

Speaker 5 shit, dude. So what do you say his name again? John Crutchley, the vampire rapist.
Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 5 I had never heard of that one. Isn't that nuts? Yeah.
Yeah. That's a great one.

Speaker 5 I thought he was going to get stabbed to death in prison.

Speaker 5 That's what I thought was going to happen. Yeah.
I mean, I don't know. Maybe he, uh,

Speaker 5 maybe he immediately, like when he was in high school, he used to fix people's stereos for money. Oh, no.
Yeah. So maybe he, like, just was one of those people that used all of his, like...

Speaker 5 his abilities

Speaker 5 for other people.

Speaker 5 Well, I can't imagine prison inmates throw just everyone a goodbye party with pot. You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 Like, that's not for the guy.

Speaker 5 Not everyone gets a cake and weed for their goodbye. Yes.
He claimed that they blew the pot in his face.

Speaker 5 It was not his fault. Yes.
My cat says that, too.

Speaker 5 Do you remember knowing people who did that to their pets? Yeah, it's the creepiest thing of all time. Horrible.
What's wrong with that? No, he likes it.

Speaker 1 And we're back. Karen, any updates on this awful awful case? Yes.

Speaker 1 So John Crutchley is suspected of being responsible for up to 30 murders, but there's never been enough of a concrete connection to those to charge him in those additional cases.

Speaker 1 Robert Ressler, the great FBI profiler, died in 2013.

Speaker 1 And the role of Bill Tench on Mindhunter, the Netflix series, played by Holt McElhaney, is based on Robert Ressler.

Speaker 1 So it's kind of cool, like he has a very legitimate, you know, kind of like a way to acknowledge and stop a certain type of

Speaker 1 super criminal, like a hyper criminal

Speaker 1 that nobody really had their minds wrapped around when he first started working on it. And to groundbreak in a way that's like, yeah, these aren't people that are going to be rehabilitated.

Speaker 1 These are reasoned with in any way. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's a whole different.

Speaker 1 It's amazing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And that's it.
So let's get into George's story about Janine Jones.

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You will not want to miss this. Goodbye.
Goodbye.

Speaker 5 Today I have an angel of death. So I've been looking up this specific angel of death for a couple weeks now, like on and off if I want to do him.
And it's just kind of, eh.

Speaker 5 So yesterday I was at like a little Memorial Day gathering and someone brought this one up that I'd never heard of. And it's in the news like today.

Speaker 5 And I and so I looked it up and I'm like, this is perfect. Okay.

Speaker 5 So this is Janine Jones. Do you know her? I don't know.
She's the angel of death.

Speaker 5 So Janine, which everyone, I don't know if everyone knows this, is a nurse or doctor or some kind of

Speaker 5 medical professional who kills their patients. Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 5 So, Janine Jones was born July 13th, 1950. She grew up in northwest San Antonio.
She was adopted by a nightclub owner, and he owned the Kit Kat Swim Club, which like you know is the best place to be.

Speaker 5 Swim club? I don't know. Yeah.

Speaker 5 A nighttime swimming club? I don't don't know if there's anything to even do with swimming. Please, I want to go to this club.
There's a pool in the middle. Who knows? Yes.
Let's open it. Yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Night swimming, lights off. Oh my God.
Neon, shit. You know, it's so creepy.
What? We just fucking ate a Kit Kat.

Speaker 5 No. That's really true.
Joke. Such a delicious Kit Kat.
What are the chances? From the Seattle show, if you gave it to us. No.
Oh, and they were Canadian.

Speaker 5 They, but they knew you love Canadian Kit Kat, so they

Speaker 5 are legit better. So much better.
Okay. So he, her, father managed the club, and her adopted mother, Gladys, spun records at the turntable.
So they sound like a fucking fun time, awesome couple.

Speaker 5 Was this in the 70s? This was in probably 50s, 60s, 70s. So somewhere around that doesn't say.
Her mom's the DJ and her dad's the club owner. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And so, like, oh, I think it's as a kid, so it's probably in the 60s. Like, they sound fucking tits.
Yeah, why aren't you cool? They adopt four kids. They sound awesome.

Speaker 5 One of the brothers died of cancer, and another was killed by the explosion of a bomb he had made when they were young. Oh, no.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 So Janine worked as a beautician, and then she attended nursing school in the late 70s. She was super smart.

Speaker 5 She scored more than 200 points above the passing grade on her licensing exam, on her nursing exam. Oh, shit.

Speaker 5 And so after school, she began working as a licensed vocational nurse at Bexar County Hospital in San Antonio, which a licensed nurse is like not an RN, right?

Speaker 5 I think it's a step below. Yeah.

Speaker 5 But I could be wrong. No, you're right, because they kept talking about that.
So I think you're correct. Yeah, RN is like the thing.

Speaker 5 My mom was an RN, so she's real judgy about medical assistance and stuff like that. Yeah.
Or she would get very offended when people only had medical assistance and not nurses.

Speaker 5 Right, or if they assumed she wasn't an RN. Right.
So very few people ever did that, though. Yeah.
She had a real RN feel about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 Well, I think this chick did too, because a lot of people thought she was, but she was put in the eight-bed pediatric intensive care unit.

Speaker 5 And the RNs basically said they were babysitters, which is like, and she was just like, fuck that.

Speaker 5 And she knew a lot about anatomy and all these smart things.

Speaker 5 So Bexar County would send its critically ill children there when they couldn't afford a private hospital. So they basically didn't have insurance and they were like, you're off to this place.
Oh, no.

Speaker 5 Yeah, which is just like, let's talk about health care. Man,

Speaker 5 let's talk about it for three hours. Let's get into it right now.
Let's solve it. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So, Janine worked a 3 to 11 p.m. shift.
And when baby started dying on her shift regularly, the other nurses she worked with started calling it the death shift. Oh, shit.

Speaker 5 And the other nurses were like, what's up, supervisors? There's something going on.

Speaker 5 But they didn't want to, supervisors didn't want to believe that the seemingly super dedicated nurse was hurting her patients. So they didn't even look into it.
But then during,

Speaker 5 I just don't want it to be this way. Yeah.
She's really intense. She's large.

Speaker 5 She can't be. Yeah.
So then eventually during a 15-month period in 1981 and 82,

Speaker 5 40, okay, wait, no, not yet. So during a 15-month period in 81 and 82, 42 children died while undergoing treatment in the pediatric unit.

Speaker 5 34 of those patients died during the 3 to 11 p.m. shift.
Oh my God. And the word patient, like these are critically ill infants and like young children.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 And she had directly cared for 20 of those children.

Speaker 5 So the patients experienced uncontrollable bleeding, seizures, and breathing problems that were correlated to her. So in early December of 81,

Speaker 5 an infant named Josh Sawyer, Joshua Sawyer, goes to the pediatric ICU after a fire destroyed his family's home. So he's an infant.

Speaker 5 He was suffering from smoke inhalation and he's suffering seizures and cardiac arrest when he gets there. He's treated with

Speaker 5 Delantin. Dilantin, that's my medicine.
That's a seizure medication, right? Oh my God.

Speaker 5 I was legitimately excited to hear myself. That sounded sarcastic, but I was like, oh my God, no, that's

Speaker 5 excited for you. That's mine.
Thank you. Me too.
Do you also take phenobarbital? Phenobarbital, no. Okay.
Isn't that like, okay. That's old, kind of.
Yeah. Mine's a little bit old, too.

Speaker 5 They want me to not take it anymore, but it's the only thing that controls my seizures. Really?

Speaker 5 I wonder if it changes, like,

Speaker 5 when you change ages and you get used, you know? Probably. The brain is such a mystery.
But it can't be fun to be like, let's try this one now.

Speaker 5 The same way with antidepressants, it's like, no, please don't put me on a new one. I know it's going to be months of fucking

Speaker 5 trial and error. Yeah, and mine, my trial and error was I would have half seizures and spin in a circle like a dog that was about to take a nap.
Karen?

Speaker 5 I did it on stage a couple times. And you had to lay down, right? Yep.

Speaker 5 Because nobody knew. Be turning in the, like, looking, I would, it was like I was needed to look over my shoulder.
Oh, my God, it made me want to cry for me. For like 15 seconds.
Oh, my God.

Speaker 5 It's fucking insane. Baby.

Speaker 5 I've been through the mill. You really have.
That's.

Speaker 5 That makes me so sad.

Speaker 5 I love that I am. No matter what the scenario, we could be talking about children being murdered.
I can still make it about me.

Speaker 5 And that's what this podcast is. Isn't it? My favorite making it about me moment.
My favorite meeter.

Speaker 5 Oh, no.

Speaker 5 Sorry.

Speaker 5 No, that's good.

Speaker 5 Anyways, back to this infant.

Speaker 5 So he's on Thailand, Antfina Barbado. And by his fourth day at the ICU, the seizures had stopped and he was breathing on his own.

Speaker 5 But his mother, Connie Weeks, at the urging of a friend, so she'd been bedside this whole fucking time, freaking out after her entire house burned down and she's having a fucking seizure.

Speaker 5 No, panic attack, baby. Friend is like, get out of here.

Speaker 5 She goes home to take a shower, change her clothes, like be normal, and also goes to see a movie, which is like, they want her to be distracted. Yes, and relax.
Right, which seems hard.

Speaker 5 I mean, so in the theater, watching the movie, the usher finds her

Speaker 5 and is like, they need you at the hospital immediately.

Speaker 5 Because when she left, he was like, probably stable. Right.

Speaker 5 Jesus, man. So Joshua's heart had begun racing a few hours after

Speaker 5 Janine took over his care that day. Doctors were unable to help him, and he died the following day after suffering two more cardiac arrests.

Speaker 5 She was also on duty at the time.

Speaker 5 Wait, she was on duty again, it's like the next day at the time of the death as well.

Speaker 5 And blood tests done between his cardiac episodes that were overlooked showed more than three times the therapeutic level of Dilantin in his system.

Speaker 5 Three times.

Speaker 5 So the hospital started private searches finally to determine if Jean, which I think she was called Jean also, was killing patients. So between May and December of 81,

Speaker 5 the last of the hospital's internal inquiries found 10 children in the ICU had died after, quote, sudden and unexplained complications.

Speaker 5 In all 10 cases, Janine Jones was present at the child's bedside during what the report gently terms the final events. Ugh.

Speaker 5 So instead of, okay, but the hospital was in the middle of a public relations campaign designed to make over its image. And so it didn't tell the police of the findings.
Uh-oh. Uh-huh.

Speaker 5 Which were that, and here are the findings.

Speaker 5 Children were 25.5 times more likely to suffer a medical emergency and 10.7 times more likely to die during her shift. Fuck.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Tell somebody. Dude.

Speaker 5 Alert the fucking media. Actually, I feel like the media is a great place to turn when no one will fucking listen to you.
For sure. You know.

Speaker 5 Especially independently. Right.

Speaker 5 Owned A Rolling Stone, if you will. I don't know if that's.
That's the end of Firestarter.

Speaker 5 When they're like running, running, running from the government and the black ops and the, you know, men in black and all that. And they finally, like, the dad is killed.
Anyone?

Speaker 5 I haven't seen it in so I read it. I read it when I was like 13.
So I was obsessed. Yeah, I am too.
It gave me nightmares when I read it. And I was like, probably the same age as you.

Speaker 5 But at the very end, like, they put the story of all of it into an envelope and drop it off at Rolling Stone. That's the way to do it.

Speaker 5 It made me so excited. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Okay, anyway. That's when I was watching The Keepers.
I was like, you know, they start talking to journalists. And it's like, no one will listen to you.

Speaker 5 Bring all your evidence to like some badass investigative journalist. How about that fucking journalist, by the way? I love that man so much from The Keepers.
He is a genius. They are so important.

Speaker 5 Yeah, they're amazing. And there's a resurgence of them now that we all realize that journalism is very important.
Oops, we need them. Yes, badly.

Speaker 5 So instead of letting everyone know, in March of 82, they're all like, all right, you know what we're going to do?

Speaker 5 Instead of telling anyone about Janine, we're going to take all of those nurses that were on the ICU and upgrade them to nursing staff so they all get the fuck out of there. All right.

Speaker 5 They take all of them.

Speaker 5 They say they're upgrading to nursing staffs to only be registered nurses in that section and they kick all of them out so all the nurses who are there get kicked the fuck out yeah they offer them jobs in other parts of it but this is a way to to just not fire her um and all of those nurses including janine were given good recommendations

Speaker 5 giving them proof that it was her well they went through this whole thing and i think they did but they were just like didn't want to have a pr thing this is very much how the catholic church would have acted yeah

Speaker 5 right just move them around and move them around yeah put them somewhere that are not around children anymore.

Speaker 5 Yeah. It's somebody else's problem.
Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 5 And in her recommendation letter, she was described as loyal, dependable, and trustworthy.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So five months later, she takes a job with a pediatrician, Dr. Kathleen Holland, in Kerrville.

Speaker 5 Carrville, probably. Kerrville.
How's it spelled? K-E-R-R-V-I-L-L-E. Kerrville.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 This is the part in the live shows where they would start screaming at us, all of us, and we wouldn't understand a single fucking word or something.

Speaker 5 It's gonna go!

Speaker 5 So, in a period of 31 days as she's working there, seven patients in eight separate medical emergencies had to be taken to the hospital. In a month? Huh?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Because here's the thing.
It's such an obsession for her, I'm assuming.

Speaker 5 She knows, like, this is a way smaller playing field.

Speaker 5 It'll be so much more obvious. And she does it anyway.
She can't not do it. Yeah.
It's so crazy. Well, you know, is it the thing of like, what is the thing? Does she want to look like a hero?

Speaker 5 Does she have, yeah, she wants to save the day, it seems like a lot, which is a lot of the reason they do that. Yes, people do that.
I believe that's what it is. It's like they, it's a,

Speaker 5 right? It's that, they were naming some things.

Speaker 5 It's that, it's putting that, quote, putting them out of their misery when it's like older people, which isn't true because this other dude I was looking up just killed like people who came in for like a broken arm or some shit.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I don't believe the putting out of their misery because I did that British doctor.

Speaker 5 I can't remember, but he did the same thing. And it was people who were not in misery.
Right. There was nothing wrong with them.
Yeah. He just liked killing people he liked the control.

Speaker 5 And actually, you brought up Misery and Firestarter. That's weird.
It's said that this one, Janine, is one of the,

Speaker 5 what, Stephen King wrote, Misery, when he wrote Annie Bates? No, Kathy Bates is the actress. Annie, I can't remember the character.
That's one of my favorite movies. It's so good.
We need to watch it.

Speaker 5 It's so horrifying.

Speaker 5 She's the scariest fucking thing in the world. Did she win an Emmy?

Speaker 5 Oscar? Whatever.

Speaker 5 She shot one boat, man. She should have swept.
She should have gotten. What is it called? The Glad Awards? No, what's it? No, I didn't mean, you know what I mean? Listen.
The Tonys.

Speaker 5 Yeah, but what's it called in 30 Rock when you win all of them? Egot. Yeah, the Egot.

Speaker 5 In 30 Rock. Publishing.

Speaker 5 Bitch, get your shit together.

Speaker 5 Mom, mom. Okay.

Speaker 5 Okay, takes a job, 31 days, seven patients. The doctor in the office then discovered puncture marks in a bottle of,

Speaker 5 here we go,

Speaker 5 cycanyl chlorine. Cycanochlorine.

Speaker 5 Succinylchlorine. In the drug storage where only she and Jones had access.
And contents of the apparently full bottle, supposed to be full, later found to be diluted.

Speaker 5 So basically, she's a teenager taking the vodka bottle and fucking out of the freezer. Is this you?

Speaker 5 There's some story of like that some roommate was like, some girl at a roommate took her vodka bottle, it fell out of the fridge and broke.

Speaker 5 No, no, no.

Speaker 5 The vodka was frozen, which it doesn't do, which means it was all water at that point. There it is.

Speaker 5 Something ridiculous. Yeah.
It's the best. Yeah.
So basically she's

Speaker 5 a monster. So this drug, which I refuse to say again, is a powerful paralytic that causes temporary paralysis of all skeletal muscles,

Speaker 5 as well as those that control breathing. So a patient can't breathe while under the influence.
In small children, cardiac arrest is the ultimate result due to lack of respiration.

Speaker 5 One of those children at this location was Chelsea McClelland. She died on September 17th, 1982.
She was a 15-month-old.

Speaker 5 She went into respiratory failure after Jones injected her with what was supposed to be routine immunizations. So you go go in to get like cholera or whatever the fuck they immune you for.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 And chuck, she fucking dies.

Speaker 5 The powerful,

Speaker 5 it's usually used as general anesthesia for surgical patients.

Speaker 5 So she's charged with Chelsea's murder, but the prosecutors decided not to file charges against her in the death of any of the children she was suspected of killing because they thought that the 99-year sentence that she got, she was found guilty, 99-year sentence.

Speaker 5 Plus, she also got a 60-year sentence for giving a four-week-old Rolando Santos a large dose of the blood thinner heparin, but he survived. But he got, she got another 60 years and they're in 1984.

Speaker 5 And they were like, well, she'll never get out, so we don't really need to prosecute her for any more people.

Speaker 5 She'll be in jail for the rest of her life, right? Yeah. Nope.
No. No.

Speaker 5 All right.

Speaker 5 So today is what, the 30th, we decided? Today is the 30th. Okay.
That's the truth.

Speaker 5 So on, oh, yeah, I mean, I guess, you know what I mean? We decide now. We decide.
No, we didn't tell you.

Speaker 5 On May 25th of 2018, so a year from basically a couple days ago, she's 66 years old. She's supposed to be eligible.
She's been

Speaker 5 eligible for parole since 89, but is repeatedly denied because she's a monster. But

Speaker 5 she was set to be released from prison after serving one-third of her sentence. So in a year.
Wow. Yeah.
And it's because

Speaker 5 here we go again with good behavior.

Speaker 5 Texas created a law called

Speaker 5 the good time law,

Speaker 5 which is not a good time, probably for the victims, which was created to combat prison overcrowding, allows inmates convicted of

Speaker 5 violent crimes between 77 and 87 to be released if they have a record of good behavior.

Speaker 5 Like, let the dude who got caught with some pot go. Yeah, that's just it.
You know, it's, that's just it. You had meth in your pocket that you were using.
It wasn't enough to sell.

Speaker 5 Who fuck let them out? Yeah.

Speaker 5 Who cares? Right. Compared to the people who clearly have a mental illness compulsion to

Speaker 5 exact bodily harm on their fellow man. Who have no empathetic tendencies whatsoever.

Speaker 5 Who, if you're, I'm sorry, but if you're over the age of 21 and you commit murder, you know, you've thought this through at some point.

Speaker 5 You know, you're not going, the the rehab thing is so hard to think when it's people who have murdered, systematically murdered people in cold blood. And systematically murdered infants

Speaker 5 that you were in charge of. You're a nurse, it's part of your, I don't know if nurses take an oath, or I bet they do, though.
It's a part of it. It's part of going, I'm a medical worker.

Speaker 5 I'm going to act like I'm going to stand in family member watching your child while your child is at the most vulnerable point it could possibly be.

Speaker 5 It's almost, yeah, it should be worse when you agree or you are supposed to be taking care of someone or making them live. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Because the thing is, we know she's been in jail, say, for 30 years, whatever it is. She gets out of jail.
That thing that she has has in probably no way been addressed

Speaker 5 of, I need to be, it's just her life is dedicated to making, just like serial killers, they kill. That's what they do.
They have to do it. And then it's that charm.

Speaker 5 You have to be a charming manipulator to get away with this thing for so long that I don't care how much therapy you've had in prison. You're a charming manipulator.

Speaker 5 You're not going to fucking exercise that out of someone. Right.
I don't care how good of a therapist you are. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 And I don't care. And I don't care.
Maybe you're better. Maybe you're not like that anymore.
You fucking still have to pay for the crime you committed. Yeah.
I don't care if you're a fucking saint.

Speaker 5 Well, and also it's the thing of trying to get things because there's so much backlog in this system.

Speaker 5 They're just trying to get things moved through, but it's like, you know, and hopefully this, when like

Speaker 5 they come upon this for like the parole board or whatever, that's taken into consideration.

Speaker 5 This isn't a person that just like accidentally hit somebody with her car or intentionally hit somebody with her car in a crime of passion. Well, this is

Speaker 5 systematically

Speaker 5 murdered babies. It's also that thing of like,

Speaker 5 yeah, so the parole board said no because they looked at the evidence and realized time and time again that she shouldn't be out.

Speaker 5 What is the point of our judicial system who gave her 99 years for this horrible crime if you're just going to override it? Yeah. You know, like it makes people not as scared to commit crimes

Speaker 5 because it's.

Speaker 5 Listen. Hey, listen.
Listen. Look and listen.
Listen. Look.
Here we go.

Speaker 5 Da da da da da. Okay.

Speaker 5 So good behavior. Because of because of this,

Speaker 5 Brexer County prosecutors were like, hell fucking no. A couple years ago, I think they found out about this.
They launched a secret investigation into her time as a nurse.

Speaker 5 And when they realized that she's going to be released, they believe that she may,

Speaker 5 they estimate that she may have killed as many as 40 to 60

Speaker 5 suspicious deaths under her watch. She killed your grammar school class of children.

Speaker 5 I had 63 kids in my class. Okay, so okay, I thought you meant in your, not in your own class,

Speaker 5 but like in multiple classes. No, no, no, in like grammar school.
Yeah. I'm just thinking like our sixth grade class had 63 kids.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 It would be as if she went through and systematically, secretly poisoned every single one of them. Jesus Christ.
As babies. As babies.

Speaker 5 I'm trying to put out there, I'm going to probably put a metaphor out there that only I can relate to. No, that's a good one because I wouldn't wouldn't have known what to do, like what to say.

Speaker 5 Like, they killed the amount of people who were at the pool yesterday. Like, no, but that doesn't make any sense, right?

Speaker 5 Yeah, okay. So, on.
So, on May 25th, a couple fucking days ago,

Speaker 5 in so 2017, Brexar County District's attorney's office announced that she had been charged in the 81 death of 11-month-old Joshua Sawyer, the kid who got killed because his house burned down.

Speaker 5 So, they went back to that poor kid and charged,

Speaker 5 they charged her. So I think she's just going straight to the other county.

Speaker 5 They're just basically transferring her to another prison and she's not getting out. So she would have gotten out and she won't.
So district attorney Sam D. Milsap Jr.

Speaker 5 Oh, Ronnie's nephew?

Speaker 5 Who's that? Well, it's a deep cut for all the middle-aged people. Ronnie Milsap is a country singer.
Nope. Oh, you've told me about him.
No, I haven't.

Speaker 5 Who's the guy that you told me about who was in Mickey Gilly? Yeah. Who was in the show? We like

Speaker 5 Fargo. Mac Davis.
Okay. That's Mac Davis.
But actually, same school. Okay.
Same like class.

Speaker 5 Someone, some middle-aged is losing his mind right now that you said that. Perhaps Ronnie Milsap himself.
Oh my God. And maybe Ronnie Milsap was blind.
That's something we could look up. But why?

Speaker 5 I mean, why do we, we're not worried about facts right now. This isn't a fucking country music podcast.
Listen, sorry. Start your own podcast about country music if you really want to know yourself.

Speaker 5 You're not goddamn interested in his life.

Speaker 5 So he, this dude, Mel Sapp Jr., he's six months into an investigation

Speaker 5 of the county, Bexar County Hospital, which is now called

Speaker 5 Nope.

Speaker 5 Okay, which is now called University Hospital of San Antonio. And everyone's like, I went there.

Speaker 5 So they changed their fucking name. Yeah, smart move.
So he is looking into why no one stopped all of these. So like holding them accountable.

Speaker 5 Thank God. Yes.

Speaker 5 Ooh, that's a bad one. He says he's focusing his criminal investigation not only on Janine, but also on the hospital for its inactions.
So Josh Sawyer's death, the sweet kid,

Speaker 5 one of the reasons they're able to prosecute it now and why they have such strong evidence is because Joshua's mother kept her son's medical records for more than three decades.

Speaker 5 And she said, It's all I had left of Joshua. She said,

Speaker 5 Everything else was destroyed in the fire. Oh no, I'm crying.
You're crying. I don't know why that gets me so bad.
It's so sad. It's so goddamn sad.

Speaker 5 She has, she walks away from that hospital with nothing. And so she keeps these records, and they probably didn't have them anymore.
You know how those records things go. Exactly right.

Speaker 5 And also, it's just that fucking hospital

Speaker 5 put their own image above human life, which is the opposite reason to have a hospital. And it's somehow so much worse that it was

Speaker 5 children. It's children.
Yeah. It's almost worse.
I mean, no one is better than the next, but it's so heartless. It's, well, they just have no,

Speaker 5 they couldn't even fight. It's not like somebody, they could go, what are you, why are you putting that needle in my arm or anything?

Speaker 5 It's just like, I don't feel like they can't even say, I don't feel well. You know, it's this thing of, um,

Speaker 5 yeah, it could have been stopped at any time had anyone taken the time to do their job, which is to protect the patients, not the hospital.

Speaker 5 It's like the doc, the people who could have investigated what was going on there, who worked there, it wasn't, they didn't own the hospital.

Speaker 5 It's not like they needed to worry about the image of the hospital. Right.
And also, I mean, it's a fucking hospital. It's not like you just started a PR company.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 People are going to go to the hospital. They have to.
You fell off a ladder, you have a blade of,

Speaker 5 you know, a knife in your arm, whatever it is. It's not like you're like, oh, don't go to that hospital.

Speaker 5 They had some issues. I went to Hollywood Presbyterian because I needed help immediately.
And that place, I don't want to talk shit out of school and on a podcast, but that's what you're doing.

Speaker 5 That's what I'm doing. All I'm going to say is don't go there.
Bad news?

Speaker 5 Very. Is that the one that's on Western? Yeah.
Oh, yeah. No, Vermont, Vermont.
On Vermont. Yeah.
Down by the Wendy's, right? Yeah, across from the Wendy's. Yeah.
Wow. That everything is.

Speaker 5 Shut up, Stephen.

Speaker 5 That's how I measure all things. Wendy? How close is the Wendy's? Yes.
That's the closest.

Speaker 5 I knew immediately. Yes.

Speaker 5 Yes. Do you do that too?

Speaker 5 Well, I've been there. I mean, there's nothing worse when you're in, like, when you're in a bad spot.

Speaker 5 And it's so weird because having a nurse mom growing up, when we would have to go, it was like, my mom worked for Kaiser, so we'd just always go to a Kaiser. Yeah.
Like,

Speaker 5 we never didn't have insurance. We never didn't have coverage, all of that stuff.
And my mom used to harp on me when I didn't have insurance after they took me and my sister off theirs.

Speaker 5 We're like, you're adults, get your own. And I didn't, of course.
And then she'd be like, you have to get insurance. And I'd just be like, what for? Why?

Speaker 5 Well, then when I had my seizures, I didn't have insurance. And I went to Harbor, UCLA in Torrance.

Speaker 5 And it was

Speaker 5 horrifying.

Speaker 5 When you,

Speaker 5 you don't want to go to a county hospital without your insurance. Well, look, and listen, they're in poor, they're poor neighborhoods.

Speaker 5 That Hollywood, you know, western and fucking fountain is not the center of Beverly Hills. And all the bad shit that happens in that neighborhood, people just get dumped at those hospitals.

Speaker 5 It's not that they're bad people. It's not that the people that work there aren't talented.

Speaker 5 It's that they're the ones that are like, almost like it's frontline style where they're just seeing tons of stuff all the time.

Speaker 5 It's rough. Listen, Burbank Urgent Care, shout out.
Hey.

Speaker 5 So that's the story of Janine Jones. She's the angel of death.
Wow. Thank God they fucking swooped right in, right in time and kept her off the streets.

Speaker 5 Because you know, like, yeah, they'd be like, you can't be in our children, but that shit falls through the cracks. Oh, so then she just is going to do some, she's going to like start,

Speaker 5 this is my theory, but she would then start driving for meals on wheels. And suddenly people, you know what I mean? She would, she doesn't need a hospital to poison people to death.
Oh my God.

Speaker 5 She would just go do it some other way because it's a compulsion that hasn't been addressed, I'm sure, or fixed in her in any way.

Speaker 5 I wonder where it came from because it feels like there's shh, like maybe it's her brothers dying. Maybe it's when she's little.
I mean, there has to be. And she was married and had two children.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Forgot to mention that.
Like, so she had babies at one point. Yeah.

Speaker 5 That's amazing. Yeah, something happened

Speaker 5 in her life because aside from a mental illness, obviously, when it's, um, I've read a lot more about less about Angels of Death because they just I find that they're so straightforward that it's like, oh.

Speaker 5 Yeah, that's why the other one I was just like, I don't know if I can do that. It's just kind of

Speaker 5 plain sad.

Speaker 5 But it's interesting because it's very similar to the Munchausen's by Proxy, where, and that's the real one where oftentimes it's mothers poisoning their children and they're they get so much out of doctors and staff members and everybody worrying about them, pitying them.

Speaker 5 they become the focus of the attention.

Speaker 5 Well, the thing too is that she was saying that

Speaker 5 the first patient she ever had at ICU was an infant who died on her watch and it broke her heart.

Speaker 5 But I wonder either she killed that infant or the attention she got when that happened, having been this child's nurse.

Speaker 5 At the time was so fulfilling that she couldn't stop because maybe, you know, she had just been a perfectionist before that, or maybe she had just, you know, it's that thing of how some people love having the um the approval of people who above them they're you know so like the doctors and and rns were like commending her for how she dealt with it and comforting her comforting her yeah yeah it's so fascinating you've seen that horrible video in a they put a video camera hidden in no don't want to well can't say the word slowly so i can stop you i'm not going to say it what is the kid survived the kid survives is it a babysitter that abuses the child no it's a devil And

Speaker 5 I can still see it in my head, and it's so horrible. Me too, and I can't watch that.

Speaker 5 Noah's father, they put a video camera in there because they knew something was going on. In the hospital? In the hospital room where the little girl was sick.

Speaker 5 He puts his body on top of hers and tries to

Speaker 5 stop her from breathing. And a nurse rushes in and catches him, and he gets arrested.

Speaker 5 Because he had munchausens? Yeah. He was making her sick.
He's trying to smother her? Yeah. Holy shit.
I'm sorry. Are you crying? No, no.
No.

Speaker 5 Why not?

Speaker 5 I can't. I do have no.
I used it all up on that. The idea of that the only thing you have left of your child is medical records.
It's just like. I know.

Speaker 5 But how triumphant for her? Well, thank fucking God. Yeah.
Because then it's, yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Half those podcasts we listen to that are like investigative reporting is them trying to get whatever basic medical records or crime records, what are they called? Yeah.

Speaker 5 That they can't, that no one will give them. That's all of the keepers is them going, I'm sorry, how do you not have these records anymore? How do they not exist anymore?

Speaker 5 There's a lot of floods in basements of police stations. So much flooding.
There's a flooding is a, what's it called?

Speaker 5 It's a common problem. Yeah.
Or it's an epidemic. Yes.
Anyways, well, that's been

Speaker 5 two hours of my favorite murder. Wow, really? I don't know.

Speaker 1 Okay, we're back. Are there any updates on this case? Yes, actually.

Speaker 1 In 2020, as part of a plea deal, Janine Jones pled guilty to murdering Joshua Sawyer, quote, with a deadly weapon, and received a life sentence.

Speaker 1 This required her to serve 20 years before becoming eligible for parole. So with credit for time she'd already served awaiting trial.

Speaker 1 This would keep her behind bars at minimum until December of 2037, when she would be 87 years old. So she might get out then.
I mean, who the fuck knows?

Speaker 1 And in her victim impact statement, Connie Weeks, Joshua Sawyer's mother, told Jones, quote, I'm glad today that you will never see daylight as a free woman and your life will end in captivity for killing my son.

Speaker 1 I leave you with this. I hope for you to live a long and miserable life behind bars.
Goodbye, end quote, which is, wow,

Speaker 1 so powerful. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, then it's time to wrap up this episode.

Speaker 5 Oh, yeah. So, because that was horrible.
And actually, I did not think this through of what my thing was from this week. Yeah.

Speaker 5 You go first. No.

Speaker 5 You said you had one. I do.
And I didn't think it through.

Speaker 5 Totally didn't. Okay.

Speaker 5 I met my friend's brand new baby yesterday.

Speaker 5 I swear to God, I didn't do that on purpose. And for a minute, I thought I had done a different murder.
I was doing a different murder. Oh, my God.
I know. Kurt's baby.
Yeah. Yeah.
Kurt and Lauren.

Speaker 5 I didn't go because I was sick. Oh,

Speaker 5 I would have harassed you to coming. Oh, yeah.
No, I mean, I didn't want to be a brown to baby and have this

Speaker 5 disgusting cough. You should have coughed in the baby's.
So I went to my friend Kurt and Lauren's house yesterday.

Speaker 5 They have the wedlock podcast in Audible. It's great.
Everyone listened. And this baby, it's like two months old, and it's so weird to see your friend's face in a baby.

Speaker 5 And I kind of, and the baby is laughing with me. And this baby is so chill and sweet and has these like dark gray blue eyes.
I mean, she's darling. Her name's Olive.
And I was for a moment like,

Speaker 5 so I turned to Vince and I said, a dog or a baby, pick one.

Speaker 5 So I think we're going to get a dog.

Speaker 5 That's exactly the way you should make decisions like that. Oh, yeah.
Nice. Ultimatums.
Yeah. You can get a dog with blue eyes.
I can get a baby dog. Yeah.
That's right.

Speaker 5 Oh, that's awesome. Yeah.
What's yours? I can't wait to see that baby. Oh, cutie.

Speaker 5 I mean, we did mention it. I guess I will say this.
We did mention it very briefly on the mini sode that you and I went to a therapy session together. And I have to say, it just made me,

Speaker 5 first of all, it made me so happy because we both know how to be in therapy. So we have to, we cut to the chase really fast.
Yes. I was just like, this is what we need.
We have to like do whatever.

Speaker 5 But it made me feel so fucking mature and like, like, we're not, it's not like there's a problem we have. We're trying to prevent a problem because we are in a very, we're in rare air.

Speaker 5 No, we can't go to anybody and go, hey, have you ever gone through this before? Because no one that I know has in this specific way. And we basically,

Speaker 5 of course, we have Steven, but we just have each other.

Speaker 5 We've argued in front of Steven before, sweetly with his face pretending to write stuck in the

Speaker 5 where we just have, it's just this, it was, it just felt like such a pro, like we were just just getting at the problem without being,

Speaker 5 we were just like, let's solve this. And we both are self-aware enough to know that we have fucking issues that make us hard, both of us hard.
I know makes me a hard person.

Speaker 5 to deal with. Same here.
And I am aware of that and totally okay with that. Yeah.
And I want nothing more than to be a better person and improve myself.

Speaker 5 So instead of it feeling like, oh, we had to go to therapy, it felt like now we're going to do this really smart thing. So like hand in hand to help, to make sure that we don't wreck.

Speaker 5 Because because my thing is just like there's been so many things where i've just been like fuck this yeah and walked away because it was too i couldn't communicate with the person it was too hard it was too infuriating and i've done it i've done it and i haven't walked away and i have serious issues from that and i don't want to go through that again i'm older and wiser and the thing that i really love about both of us is that i could well i could say and you could say we should go to therapy and it wasn't an insult and it wasn't cutting you down or cutting me down It was just, and it's the same thing with couples.

Speaker 5 It's couples relationship therapy. Exactly.
She's like, let's do this before it gets fucking horrible and we have to backtrack for years.

Speaker 5 Because

Speaker 5 you, it's just such a fascinating thing. First of all, I'm deeply in love with our therapist.
Oh, my God. He's amazing.
It was like a soap opera star came to be our therapist. Yes.

Speaker 5 Like he's beautiful. And then he would just go like, we'd start talking and I could hear us telling the story the way we told it to each other, the way like, here's how this story goes.

Speaker 5 And And he'd go, I'm going to stop you for a second.

Speaker 5 And then instead of talking about the plot line, we would have to talk about the feelings that the actions brought up, which is what I hate and what I always get called on in therapy.

Speaker 5 The actions don't matter. Exactly right.
It's what you were feeling when you were doing them. And it's what it brings out in you.
He's making you share yours.

Speaker 5 So you are understanding your feelings, but what he's really doing is making you explain them to me and me explaining them to you, which totally helps.

Speaker 5 So there was like genuine revelations where I was like, oh shit.

Speaker 5 Like we we would have never talked about this while we were having a fight about this other thing where it's like, I just appreciate it if you do this thing or whatever.

Speaker 5 And instead, what we're just doing, we're learning our backstories so that we can go, oh, this is that thing she does.

Speaker 5 And so next time we get in a fight, if I do this thing, this is why she's responding to me this way. And you know what I love? And I hate when they do this is, well,

Speaker 5 you start telling them your feelings. Tell her.
Like, you're supposed to turn to me and tell me your feelings. And I'm like, I don't want to.
He didn't make us do that.

Speaker 5 No, he didn't, which I appreciate. I'm sure he will eventually, but I think he knows right now it's too hard to do that.
Well, and also because we kind of were.

Speaker 5 That's also, I guess the part I loved is you are such a good partner in that way. Where like when we were talking about this stuff, at no point was there any shutdown.

Speaker 5 Was there any, it was just like we started to be like, well, this is the, this is what, you know, I'm worried about or this is whatever. Like, this is the bad pattern we're in.

Speaker 5 And we both brought it together. And both of us were like, oh, yeah, I can understand that.
Yeah. But because we've both been in therapy for so long, there's no like both.

Speaker 5 And I've been in couples therapy. Like, I understand how it's supposed to work.
Right.

Speaker 5 Which is great. And there's no reason for you to be like, that's not true.

Speaker 5 And he said at the end, which we should tell people this.

Speaker 5 Which this fucking changed my thought process so much. Me too.
I'm going to say it wrong. You say it.

Speaker 5 He said, we can stop thinking about these things in terms of true, oh, right or wrong and start thinking of them in terms of true for Georgia, true for Carolina. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So what you think is right is just your truth. and it doesn't mean you're right.
Or wrong. Like that we can just practice moving.
There's just things like

Speaker 5 that. It sounds so like, it's not like we were having these huge problems.
It's like we would get, we would, everything would be great, and then we would try to discuss one area. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And so we were like, let's fix the area before the area becomes, spreads to the rest of everything else we're doing. It's like getting a bikini wax.
Preemptive bikini wax.

Speaker 5 Before it gets down to your knees. Before you have to go to the pool the next day.
You're like, why didn't I get a bikini wax?

Speaker 5 So you try to do it yourself and your legs are red. Yeah.
Ingrown hair is all over the place. No, you got to get some Russian lady to do it for you.
Oh, yeah. At Burke Williams.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Guys, guys. That was an overshare for sure.
No way. There's no such thing.
All right.

Speaker 5 Well, thanks for listening. The overshare was the bikini wax or the therapy? No, just, I don't know.
No, nothing.

Speaker 5 I think the bikini wax was an overshare. Oh, okay.
But not the. I thought that was a good metaphor.
I think so. I think.

Speaker 1 Okay, we're back. All right.
So the original, as we spoke about earlier, the original title of this episode was Put It in a Door. So if we're naming it today, what should we call it?

Speaker 1 We would maybe call it Secondhand Tips,

Speaker 1 which is

Speaker 1 what we started getting for this podcast, which I appreciate.

Speaker 1 And then it could also be called My Favorite Making It About Me moment.

Speaker 1 yeah, that's what we do, that's what we do here at My Favorite Murders. It's what we do, I think it's what everybody does.
It's what's so relatable about us. Totally.

Speaker 1 Speaking of us, let's let us say goodbye in 2017. Thanks for listening to Rewind.

Speaker 5 Thank you guys for listening. You're all fucking sweet baby angels.
Um, thanks for your support. All of it, stay sexy and don't get murdered.
Elvis,

Speaker 5 you want a cookie?

Speaker 5 Okay, bye. Bye.

Speaker 5 Okay, I think I hid some in here.

Speaker 7 The courtroom isn't just about justice. It's about power and money and some truly bizarre loopholes.

Speaker 1 I'm Michael Foote. And I'm Melissa Malbrunch, and we've got a brand new show called Brief Recess: a Legal Podcast.

Speaker 7 Every week, we talk about wild tales from court, trials gone wrong, and cases and rulings that shape our world.

Speaker 8 Today, we're going to be talking about stolen antiquities, all the weird things Melissa found out in an estate sale, the crazy conversations I had with a bouncer, and J.K.

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Speaker 7 From the exactly right network, new episodes of Brief Recess drop every Thursday. Watch Brief Recess on YouTube.

Speaker 7 Listen to Brief Recess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 9 All right, good people. What's up? It's Quest Love, and I'm really excited to announce that my podcast is back with new episodes, a new logo, and yes, even a new name.

Speaker 9 So welcome to QLS 2.0, the Quest Love Show. New conversations are on the way with some incredible guests like journalist term filmmaker Cameron Crow.

Speaker 10 It's like the Barry Gordy thing, you know, if you send me a letter and it's B-A-R-R-Y, you didn't take the time to know how my name was spelled and I can't take the time to know what you want from me.

Speaker 9 Listen to the Questlove Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 6 I'm Ghosted by Ross Hernandez. The scariest thing isn't always the ghosts.
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Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 71: Put It In A Door

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Transcript

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