Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 35: A Small Foreign Faction

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Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. That's right.
This is our new Wednesday show where we recap our oldest episodes, but we add in all new commentary and case updates and insights. And today we're recapping episode 35, which we named A Small Foreign Faction, which sounds familiar to a lot of you.
So this episode, we did it a little differently. It's just one story that we kind of discuss and talk about together.
And we discuss the CBS documentary about the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. That's right.
It was such an epic documentary that came out. We both knew it was coming.
We were excited to see it. So we're like, yeah, let's just talk about this.
So it's one of the rare episodes where we're not telling each other surprise stories. We broke format.
Yeah, I like it. With big cases like this, there's so much to talk about.
So why not? So join us now as we take you back to September 22nd, 2016, a Thursday unlike any other. And now we're going to listen to the intro of episode 35.
Shall we? Oh, yeah. Are you okay? Yeah.
What was going through your mind just now? Oh, I was thinking about my old roommate who used to scream sneeze, and I was getting legitimately angry about the amount of time I spent with people I didn't like in the 90s because I was on drugs and drink. Maybe you were on drugs and drink because you couldn't stand the most of the people you were around.
I think that had a lot to do with it. And yet I felt very like suit, fakely loyal or something or like, like I was supposed to make it work out somehow.
But if you're friends with a scream sneezer, cancel the friendship immediately. It's the most obnoxious habit in the world.
Like what happened to you that you need attention when you sneeze? My mom. What happened to her? I don't know, but she screams sneezes.
Wait, she listens. We can't talk about her anymore.
She's fine. Mom? Mom.
She knows what she fucking did to me in my life. It is because you know your sneeze is coming if you're a scream sneezer.
I don't. So all of a sudden it's someone screaming.
She loves attention. There's no, you're completely right about that.
Yeah. Like that's a connection.
Yeah. Mom, I love you, but Jesus fucking Christ.
I mean. She knows.
She doesn't care. Yeah.
Do you think a lot of people think that they just started this podcast accidentally, like skipped the beginning of it? Yes. When really that was the beginning.
That was the beginning. We're trying new beginnings.
It's called a hard complaint at the top. Angry complaining.
Then we go into our pre-written intro. Go ahead, Georgia.
Hey, thanks for tuning in to My Favorite Murder. My name is Georgia Hartstark.
And my name is Khan Kelgaro. And this is pre...
We've been practicing this for months. We wrote it and then we sent it off to a professional editor.
They sent back some suggestions. Yep.
God, that was a great beginning of a podcast. You're welcome for being fucking professional.
That's why this episode is so expensive for you guys. Yeah, that's right.
Because of this amazing high quality writing. How much money we spend on this.
We don't even say... Have we said the words my favorite murder yet? I think I mentioned it.
Okay, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good. Anyway.
Do you want to just kick right into Corrections Corner? Absolutely. I have one.
Go ahead. No, no, no ahead no no okay because i actually i do have like one that i did i fucked up last week oh why not like so i'm trying to steal my thunder why would you do so this mass shooting in australia led to crazy strict gun laws which is amazing and everyone who messaged was like, we thought that the Sandy Hook shooting was going to be the same incident.
And we think you're a terrible place because it wasn't, but here's ours, here's this positive thing. And it's great and amazing.
And we're all very happy with ourselves. Did you tell them about our saltwater taffy? Because we can be pretty great when we try.
Yes, yes, there are people who have major problems getting guns to kill children specifically. The problem is they don't have major problems getting guns.
No, I meant they have problems in their lives. Yes.
They are getting guns. Yeah.
And however, it's very easy for them to get guns, even though they have major problems. It's totally fine for them to get guns even though they have major problems.

It's totally fine for them to get

guns. Let's talk about gun control.

Oh, yes. Who doesn't love to

hear all about that? Alright, what's your corrections

corner? Mine is the simple fact

that Peoria is not three miles

away from Chicago, but three

hours. And I swear

to fucking Christ,

every single person in the Midwest texted and tweeted and told me about it. Personal friends, distant strangers, everybody who could possibly say it was like, and they were saying it as if I had said Abraham Lincoln was our first president.
Like, excuse me, Peoria is not three miles away. Karen, as the other half of this podcast.

Oh, yes.

I'm exonerating you from that needing to be a fucking thing for you to apologize for.

Sometimes when I'm reading off my Wikipedia printout, my eye will tell me something that isn't there on the page.

That's what happens.

And like, okay.

All right.

So we're in Los Angeles.

If someone said that San Francisco is three hours from here, would you say no?

Would you tell them it's six hours?

And would it make a difference?

No, you know what I would do? I would withhold the true information and then I would gloat. There you go.
Yeah. I would say I'm better than that person secretly.
Everyone needs just to be more selfish. Yeah, they do.
There. Gloat more.
Said it. Talk to us less.
In episode 35, Karen and Georgia just became real mean. She's became big assholes.
It was weird. They went into gun control shit and then they just got rude.
And that's when I said, I've had it. Here's a positive.
Okay. Because it's not all like that with us.
I have a positive too. Go ahead.
Do you really? Yeah. Well, my positive you know about, but let's fake and pretend like you've never heard this story before.

So, Stephen hasn't heard it.

Stephen, I'm not going to look at you anymore.

Tell Stephen.

Stephen.

Don't look at me.

So, I was doing something, working probably,

and then killing time before I had to go somewhere else.

So, when I have an hour to kill,

I go to J.Crew or some such place where I can get a long-sleeved cotton shirt. Real quick, haters.
This is not a fucking ad that J.Crew has paid us to do. No, we're not sneaking an ad in on you.
No, we haven't done that yet. We went for the right money.
We're blatant. Yeah, that's right.
They haven't paid us enough to sneak an ad in on you yet. Yet.
So I go over to the Grove. If you have never visited Los Angeles or not from around here, the Grove is like...
Three hours away from Los Angeles. Three hours from the heart of Los Angeles is a mall where they basically tried to make it if there was a small town where everyone was obsessed with shopping.
That's what the Grove looks like. There's a train or a trolley or something.
Gardens. So anyhow, I go into J.Crew, try to get myself a shirt.
And the guy, the first guy that says, how are you? Or do you need any help? And I'm like, no, no, leave me alone. And then he asked me again a little bit later.
And I'm like, does he think I'm a shoplifter? I've worked retail. I know with this, you're patrolling me.
And then finally he came up and he goes, what's your name? And I go, Karen. And he goes, what's your last name? And I go, what are you doing? Never tell them your last name.
And then he goes, are you from the podcast, My Marriage Murder? And I said, yes. And then he lost his mind on me.
I love him. And he told me, this is the thing that got me.
So look, we are having some nice success with this podcast. It's very, very exciting.
It's very exciting. It's quite bewildering.
And it's just like a weird, it's just weird. Yeah.
But I didn't think we were to the level of people recognizing us from a podcast at The Grove. No, that's that's The Grove is like the biggest.
It's like the it's like tourists go there. Yes.
It's like a big thing. Mario Lopez does a show from there.
Mario fucking Lopez does a show from there. It's a high end recognition spot.
Definitely. So Trey, who is the young man who is talking to me.
What's up, Trey? You think they're listening right now? Oh, yes, I do. Because what he told me was that the J.Crew of The Grove listens to our podcast when they shut down at night and have to fold down the store.
I love you. So he couldn't believe that no one that he closes with was there to see.
Do you think that they all think he's lying and now this is happening? Well, girl, we took a picture to prove. And then someone wrote to the Twitter page and said, I can't believe I wasn't on shift when Trey met Karen from My Favorite Murder.
And the whole thing was just this super cute. He was so happy.
It just is so wonderful to see people that excited. And yeah, that was the cutest thing, Stephen, is that at one point, he was just asking me all these questions and stuff.
And then at one point he goes, where's Georgia

right now? I was just like,

I honestly don't know.

That's so

cute. All right.
So we're going to do a personal

appearance. We're going to do surprise

drop-in. Oh, a J.
Crew

closing shift drop-in? At

the Grove. Yeah.
Right

now. And then everyone turns around at the door,

but we're not there. We're shoplifting.

I'm going to go in there and shoplift

and see if anyone says a word to my face.

You know they won't.

So deal with that level.

That's awesome.

Get on this level of fame that we're now all on.

Steven, you're going to get recognized next.

Not me.

I hope so.

No.

I'm waiting for someone to yell to me,

like a transaction or like a thing, and then for someone to yell to me a transaction or

a thing and then for someone to yell

stay sexy.

That's my dream

is that someone doesn't say they recognize

me, doesn't say listen to the podcast, but when

I'm leaving our interaction,

our transaction, or whatever

the fuck, a parking lot, they

yell at me. They do a shout out.

I will fucking scream at the top of my lungs. Don't get murdered.
Will you scream sneeze at them? At the top of your lungs. At the top of my nasal passages.
You know what's funny though? My friend Allison Agosti, who I work with. Love the shit out of her.
She's the greatest. And I work with her and I walked into our writer's room the other day and there's like, you know, nine people in there or whatever.
And she goes, I was listening to your podcast and then I got all embarrassed and like shut her down basically. And I later had to go, sorry, I received that incorrectly.
I was like, it's that thing where like, it's super exciting and I don't want to overly be like, let's talk about it for five minutes. Yeah.
Because I'm, of course, I'm so judgmental of others that I'm positive I'm going to get that judgment back. Well, I keep hoping my parents will then do it and I can be like, no, it's a great, it's a big, they don't care.
Right. Oh, I got, my sister started listening.
Oh, right. This is a miracle of all miracles is my sister Laura is now a listener and constantly texting me things we need to do, things we need to say, stuff we need to talk about.
Let's have an older sister corner of how bossy older sisters are. We should for sure.
She had some very interesting observations about the JonBenet special. Hey, speaking of.
Not to segue corner you right into what we're doing. But let's take a casual, super casual, quick break.
Did you just flip me off? Oh, you lifted your middle finger while you were taking a drink. No.
It was very subtle. I actually flip people off like this where I barely move my outer and side fingers.
I just very slightly let my middle finger up. It's more feminine.
I just remember in elementary school, because everything got scrutinized and everything you did was stupid to everyone. The way you flip people off was made fun of.
So I just got really good at doing it correctly. So you do the one where it's two shorter fingers.
You don't pull all your fingers down. I pull all my fingers down.
You pull all your fingers down. That is the proper fuck you.
Oh, instead of this? Yeah, I don't know what that is. This is California.
That looks like a cute little bird or something. This is NorCal fuck you where you kind of leave your surrounding middle fingers up.
They're like between the first and second knuckle. This is so visual that we should not be talking through.
I mean, it's insanity. Let's go.
Let's take a casual quick break and we'll teach each other our middle fingers. Okay.
And then we'll come back. You guys ready for Jean Benet? All Jean Benet, all the time? It's Jean Benet time, everybody.
Let's do it. Oh, I wonder how Trey from J.Crew is doing these days.
I remember that day so clearly in my mind. It was truly like my hand on the doorknob of success.
And Trey was the guy standing outside that door going, oh, my God, you're touching the doorknob. It was just like one of those kind of things where you dream of it and then it's actually happening in front of you.
So I'm being like, oh, my God, are you from this podcast where I was like staring at him like this can't be what's happening right now. You're like, what are you talking about? Only Georgia and Steven hear that in the apartment we record in.
What are you talking about? Person I don't know. And you're this excited.
And you're telling me the staff of J.Crew listens to this as you close the store down, which is something I used to do at The Gap.

Lo these many, probably 25 years ago, knowing what it feels like to be a retail worker that's just like how we're going to get ourselves through the next three hours. And the idea that you and I were the solution to that.
I mean, I love the solution. It's incredible.
because because i love being other people's solution that they make us into because it's

very hard to kind of like churn that up yourself. Yeah.
You can't be your own solution, but you can be other people's solutions and you can find solutions in other people and places and things. And so it's nice to be that.
It's very true. Also, speaking of solutions, the funniest thing is in this episode, I shout out my friend Allison Agosti, who has since been hired here at Exactly Right.
And she is basically now the staff writer and writes a lot of the stuff that you see in here coming out of Exactly Right Media and all the promos and all the different things that you hear. That's her.
That's crazy. She writes in the bullet point here in our details.
Now I work here and we talk about the podcast every day. How do you like that, Karen? So she's like, yeah, she's in it.
I also love and remember so well the like, how do you flip people off conversation? Oh my God. I had no idea before that there was like a different way to do it.
Because you were full this, right? I'm'm single finger single finger like pull the other ones down with your thumb like as for as much impact as possible but you're like you're like curl the fingers to the side mine is almost don't do it yeah but gesture toward people i kind of do my flip off like i have very nicely manicured nails, even though I never, ever do. I look like a gardener.
But it's almost like the energy of nicely manicured nails and a lady that cut you off in traffic, but is going to flip you off at the same time. It's always more of a fuck you to barely even bother with a middle finger than it is to give a like, like what I do, an excessively angry one because it shows that I care.
You really care. I really fucking care.
And when we say the word care, what we mean is the word hate. Hate.
All right. So let's get into this really complicated conversation we have that like, I can't wait to update because so many things have changed

except for the fact that we still have no fucking clue who did it and I still am so all over the place about who did it and change my mind constantly about it you know yeah here we go let's get into our 2016 review of the jean benet cbs special hey karen i want you to picture yourself going for a drive. What comes to mind? Not ever being able to merge on any freeway in Los Angeles and potholes and crying.
Oh, yeah. Well, the truth is the road can feel like it's out to get you at every turn.
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That's H-Y-U-N-D-A-I-USusa.com or call 562-314-4603. Goodbye.
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Goodbye. How many, there needs to be a code word for when we're not actually going to take it.
Like, because we always say, let's not take, let's not do this. Let's take it out.
But like, when do we mean it and when do we not? Oh, you like it almost like a safety? Yeah. They call that during sex, like a safe word.
Yeah, because Steven gets confused and he goes to write something and I'll be like, no, just kidding. Leave it in.
I take it as a challenge. Yeah.
That's right. You...
Steven is the... We leave this all up to Steven.
He beautifully edits edits can you imagine if he just had to like

the whole thing is this kind of

insane bullshit and then Stephen

Stephen's our cult leader and it's just whatever he says

goes. That's right.
No I'm in the basement

I have no basement

We're in the basement

This is like the Alamo

And we're back

Let's make

jokes and stuff and then get into something

real fucked up. Well people

I don a question. Yes.
Do you still have TiVo or do you just still call it that? I call it that. Okay.
It's my, that's my verb of that. Because I'm not DVRing is stupid.
Yeah. No, I'm fine with the TiVo word.
I just didn't know if that was still a thing. If I had the actual brand.
Yeah. No, I have DragTV.
Okay. If you must know.
Again, no one's paying us shit for any of this. Shit for fuck.
Shit for fuck. If they want to give us fuck for shit, then they can...
Mark it. They can email

Mark this Steven. But what's the safe word? Screen sneeze.
Just kidding. All right.
So yeah. So

you had multiple genre days. There were three choices.
And then I was like, oh, I don't know.

When I'm met with that kind of a life challenge, which is choose which the correct made-for-TV docu-series about Jean Benet's murder. Choose your own Jean Benet.
I like totally turned the channel. I'm like, oh, look, Father Brown's on.
And then I just something. When I joked that it was a choose your own adventure, that is actually completely correct because I tried to watch a couple of them and every single one of them is so clearly with agenda.
Yes. Pregnant with agenda.
Yes. And some of them won't, and I won't say who and what, won't show the photos of her as a normal child.
Right. Because, yeah, that doesn't serve their media message of what they're talking about.
There's a video of her that to me, and I wrote in the thing I wrote that like... For Elle.com.
Can I plug it? I just suddenly felt awkward about that. Do it.
Get used to it. I'm not plugging it.
I'm just how fucking happy I am. And I might cry from like how good it feels because I started on live journal writing.
I'm going to be honest. And I didn't graduate community college.
And you wrote two amazing articles for Elle.com that were so readable and so wonderful. Thank you.
They're on our Twitter feed. If you need to find them, they're great reads.
Karen, that means so much coming from you

because I think you're an incredible writer.

My friend.

And that means a lot to me.

And my sister said the same thing.

Oh my God.

And she's a teacher

who kind of can't spell.

That means a lot to me.

Who kind of can't spell.

Now that I know she's listening,

I'm going to do stuff like that.

I would like to thank the editors of Elle

for making me look like

I know how to punctuate shit.

Apostrophe S's will be the death of me.

But they made it not seem that way.

Anyways.

Oh, yeah.

In it, I was like, everyone stop and go look at photos of her as a normal kid.

Yes.

Because it's a different fucking story.

And there's this video of her that they show in slow-mo of her mom.

It's her as a little kid.

It's like a home video.

Her mom is scratching the top of her head as she nestles her head into her mom's leg. Have you seen this? No.
And it's just so sweet and human and reminds me of me and my mom as a kid. And it's this like goofy, sweet little girl whose mommy is comforting her and doing this thing she probably does a lot, which is scratch her head.
You know, we all have this thing. Very maternal.
Very. Comforting thing.
Now, was this before or after Patsy had dyed her hair blonde? Because I didn't know. I didn't know that it was dyed.
I don't know why. And when the friend, in the CBS one, when the friend talks about seeing JonBenet

for the first time with dyed blonde hair

and Patsy being like, no, it's just from the sun.

She lied about it.

But then I thought if she was murdered when she was six,

she must have had that blonde hair

for at least a couple months, if not a year before,

which means someone dyed a five-year-old's hair blonde.

Bleached.

I mean, bleaching your hair is disgusting. If you've ever had your hair dyed, women know.
It's like a very gross, intense chemical process. On a five-year-old? That's crazy.
But in the pageantry circuit, I don't think it's that weird, which she was in. Yes, except for- That was my point is no one talks about that the pageantry circuit is basically a strange, weird commercial for pedophiles.

And there's no reason you should have a six-year-old girl dressed like an Atlanta heiress or Harris.

there's no there's no reason

we should be seeing

a little girl

basically cosplaying

an adult

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but but but but but but but but but but but but but but Lana heiress or Harris, there's no reason we should be seeing a little girl basically cosplaying an adult rich woman. But I, okay, here's my thing with JonBenet Ramsey and the whole case is that I will argue the opposite of anything that's argued.
Yes. Because there's such a huge argument because there's never going to be any conclusions.
Yes. And every single piece of evidence, and I wrote some of them down, has an argument for the other side.
Right. Exactly.
And that's what I kind of love about this is because I really don't like being like, this is my opinion and here's the argument why and I won't listen to you and your opinion. It's like...
I'm not doing that. Not you.
No, no, no, no, no. I mean like any other debate that people have.
Right. No, exactly.
I don't mean you. When people absolutely decide how they feel and won't come off of it.

No, I totally, I agree that in every other way,

except for it unnerves me how normalized the pageant system is,

where it's only little girls.

But that's the thing is that it is normalized for certain people,

including Patsy Ramsey, who was a pageant queen.

And they're from the South.

Yes, true.

So it wasn't that weird to her.

I don't think it's necessarily abuse. I just think it's a, it, you're putting shit on a child, a little girl long before she needs to be dealing with it.
I completely agree with all of it. I just don't...
It's just like when people present, not you, when it is presented that there are... There is proof that this is why these...
Why she was murdered by the parents and how fucked up these things were. I just don't think they...
Like a lot of them aren't. No, no, I'm not arguing that the pageants prove they did it.
I'm arguing that dyeing a six-year-old's hair shows very bad decision-making skills and just a weird... But these are people that I also didn't know they had two of their own planes.
I didn't know they were the level of rich that they are. If you're arguing that dyeing a four-year-old's hair blonde is proof that this parent doesn't have the child's best interest in mind, and therefore, it makes sense why she would have been part of maybe the murder or the cover-up, then I agree with you makes sense to me.
Yeah. Man, should we get into this?

Yeah.

We're, I'm sorry to tell you, we're in.

Do you want to start or?

Should we, are we starting now?

Steven, can you? Steven, hit play.

Can you delete?

Oh man.

I mean, okay.

The CBS thing.

And here, and one of the rules on our Facebook group is don't talk shit about other podcasts.

That's right.

And the hosts of the CBS show have a true crime podcast. Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah. Steven, let me go ahead and look that up.
If you don't mind. I just think, so I liked them a lot and I think they had the best interest and I don't think, I think they're integrity based people.
I just think that the moment you are clearly going for a certain... What's the word? Agenda, like an angle.
Agenda, you can't... Like the moment I saw that John Ramsey was being interviewed for one of the documentaries, I was out.
Because he wouldn't agree to do it unless the agenda wasn't. It was for him.
Yeah. Yes, that's right.
So what did you think about Burke Ramsey's interview with... I didn't watch it.
I watched clips. Oh, on Dr.
Phil? Yeah. I didn't watch it either.
But you saw that he was smiling through a lot of it. Yes.
I think that Burke Ramsey might be on the spectrum. That's what I thought too.
I don't think it's fair to... I don't think any of this is fair.
The smiling isn't a sign of anything. No, that's nerves.
Yeah. Here's the thing.
If you have been around TV or done TV, I've watched a lot of people act super weird on TV. Especially, I don't know, was that whole thing pre-taped? Like there was no audience when he was talking to Dr.
Phil. No audience.
Yeah.

See, and I think I said this before, but the reason I didn't watch it is because I have a friend who's a producer on it.

And she was like, nothing came of it.

They didn't reveal anything.

So then I was like, oh, it's boring.

But then a bunch of people started tweeting at us of like this behavior and all this different stuff. It was definitely weird behavior, but I don't think it was indicative of someone who is guilty or innocent or you can read anything out of it.
Is it, was it weird for a person that has two planes? I mean, like this is a person that's lived in the world. Literally never done an interview before in his life.
No. And probably never had to really be in the world in a real way in his life.
And so I think the reason this whole interview happened is because they somehow knew that the CBS documentary was coming out that kind of pointed towards him so this is like a quick fuck let's let's get this out before that comes out so he maybe didn't even want to do it no way did he want to do it he's freaked out oh my god there's so much to talk about but he also you know there he's already su suing CBS. Is he really? That's what someone told me at work today because we were all talking about it this morning.
Shut up. Yeah.
And because I said, everyone was talking about why possibly would they have reduced it from three or four episodes to two. And I was saying it could have been a thing where they let them do it, but they said, because I'm obsessed, of course, with the pageant part and any kind of, it felt like they just dismiss any kind of sexual molestation or anything.
They just dismissed it out of hand, which seems very unlikely to me. I wrote that in the Elle article that it's like...
Oh yeah, I'm ripping you off from the Elle article. Can you not? I was my idea.
I'm going to sue you for what to call when someone copies your shit. Just copying.
Make me sound smarter in that clip. All right.
Okay. Who's looking for the button? I know.
Your button knows? Here's the stuff I liked that I didn't know about from the CBS show. I really loved, I love handwriting and linguistic analysis.
I think it's fucking fascinating. Yeah.
The fact that someone pointed out that no one would ever write that they were a small foreign faction. Yes.
You make yourself seem bigger. You don't seem like you're a small little group of people.
Yes. Very interesting.
And also no one calls themselves foreign. Right.
Exactly. And if you are a band getting together right now and you don't name yourself small foreign faction, you're a fucking idiot.
I'll murder you. Yeah.
Punk rockers. Get it together.
I know that there was like all those things about the phrasing and the like, and sorry if I'm jumping on this on yours, but I was freaking out when they got to the part where the, the ransom letter quotes speed. I didn't know.
Dirty Harry. Dirty Harry.
It's just like you, how is, so if, if this is Patsy and John and they're covering up, you know, the one theory that they were really shoving in your face on the CBS one. If that was true, then they really think that they're so much smarter than everybody else that they can add in lines from the movie Speed and have nobody catch on.
They absolutely do. Okay, really quick.
Steven was like brought his phone over me to show me a thing that I asked him and I completely forgot what I had asked him. So I was like, what is he? I don't remember what I'm...
Okay, the podcast that the hosts of the CBS show do is Real Crime Profile, which I listened to. It's a great podcast.
Oh, okay. Yes, I agree.
Let's, you know what? Let's, okay, so let's start. You ready to start? Let's, what is your theory? Like overall, like what's your favorite theory oh i think that i think it was burke okay how do we think i think burke got angry and didn't i don't think he meant to do it no i don't either i don't think i think he wanted to hurt her yeah i think that but a lot of the stuff that they named that was like, oh, you know, God forbid that he do this or that is all stuff little kids do.
Brothers and sisters especially are really mean and vicious with each other. So like a lot of that stuff didn't freak me out because it's like.
Yeah. Yeah.
You hit your brother or sister with a piece of train track or whatever. My sister and I used to, I've talked about it before, getting into fights where you're being beaten with a remote control and shit.
The first time I got punched in the stomach was when I was like five by my sister. Yeah.
Like that standard thing. Because you, as a kid, you don't know how strong you are.
You don't know how much it hurts. And you're angry and you have no parental supervision.
I wrote in the article that our friend Kat Solon, her brother bears her childhood teeth mark scar on his body because they were so angry that they did that. You just get angry at people.
And also, it's the thing of, if he did that and he was super angry, and it does make sense that she's the little princess that gets all of the mom's attention and he was older it would have been different if he was younger but he's older so he was used to having all of her attention and then that got kind of redirected which is very painful and awful if he already was having a little bit of like developmental or if there's just some issue with like he's a little slower he's a little bit emotionally off whatever it is yeah which is which a lot of things i read say he was a little bit of a weird kid which i mean i grew up with a weird kid i understand that they're weird yeah yes that doesn't mean they're yeah here's the thing my sister said she texted me and said the thing with the feces is really bad that's's usually a sign of sexual molestation. I know.
The wetting the bed thing. So JonBenet wet her bed regularly.
They said Brooke might have too. That to me is hard because I wet my bed later than I should have.
I did too. I sucked my thumb until like second grade.
I was never molested. So you can't just say that definitively.
No. But the shit thing.
Shit is a much bigger deal because even when you're little, it's not natural to... It was as if they were saying, and I don't know any more than what they presented on that, but it was as if they were saying he would shit on her stuff or he like wipe shit places.
And my sister has been a grammar school teacher for over 20 years. And she has a master's degree in like in developmental education or whatever.
I'm not exactly sure. But I'm a big fan.
Fix that in post. Fix her degree.
But essentially, this is what she does and deals with kids a lot that are going through this. And she was just like, that's bad.
That's the worst thing she heard in the whole thing was anytime a kid has got his hands in shit and he's not a baby. Well, she had...
This is the thing they revealed in the CVS thing is that she had a great fruit-sized shit in her bed. Right.
That sounds painful and fucked up and not normal at all. No, like he was collecting it or...
No, that she just saved having to go to the... She was so uncomfortable going to the bathroom that she waited until she was in bed.
Oh, I thought he put it there from what... Oh.
Because they said the maid found it. Right.
And I was thinking that he was trying to wreck her shit because the other stuff- Or make her look like a gross. Yes.
Can I say that I feel bad for Burke in this whole thing? It's very bad. And then I read something.
I made everyone on our Facebook group and send us their theories and send us what they found that was interesting and their thoughts and everything. And one of them was that Burke actually doesn't even know that he doesn't know that he caused that blow.
He might have done it and they were like, go to bed. And he doesn't remember it.
He maybe somewhere deep down does, but he doesn't know that he put that whole thing into action. I feel bad for this kid who clearly has some issues.
I think he knows something though, because remember that interview he has with the cop and he won't say the cop. With the pineapple.
Yeah, what's in the bowl? And he just won't say it. Like there are those weird things.
He goes, oh. So in the CBS documentary, they show clips, which is like, I could watch this for hours of Burke being interviewed by a psychologist or social worker post, like when he was a kid.

Yeah.

The only time they, there was two times they let him be questioned.

And in it, you know, they're talking.

And I actually, it's amazing.

They show him a photo of the table, the crime scene table, which has a bowl of pineapple out with Burke's fingerprints on it. And in JonBenet's stomach after she died is an undigested piece of pineapple.
right and so the the social worker the psychologist shows Burke a photo of the pineapple and says what

is this or shows him the bowl of pineapple and he says I don't know it looks like cereal

or something and he says well what is this? Or shows him the bowl of pineapple. And he says, I don't know.
It looks like cereal or something. And he says, well, what could that be? And then Burke goes, oh, like he knows not to say what it is.
Yes. That's weird.
But it's like a little kid thinking he's outsmarting someone. And there's this, you're watching from this camera overhead.

He also is in a very weird physical position in that chair.

He's very weird physically.

He's very antsy in a weird way.

Yeah, but he gets down on all fours

when he's looking at that picture.

And I understand it's like a kid's way,

like almost like child's pose.

Yeah.

But to me in that situation,

it gave me the creeps.

Like it was just weird. He was, he wasn't, he was very stilted in his voice, but he looked incredibly comfortable.
Yeah. It was almost like.
Chill, he was chill. It was weird.
How do we, okay. So, like, my theory, in my mind, the mastermind of this whole fucking entire thing, which is that Burke unknowingly hit her over the head or threw a flashlight.
Someone mentioned maybe he didn't actually hit her. Maybe he threw this flashlight at her.
Yeah. And this happened and it was staged.
In my mind, the mastermind of the whole thing is not Patsy, who is just being thrown out of the bus fucking completely in this whole thing. It's someone who's still alive.
And so I'm scared to... It's John Ramsey.
It's John Ramsey. I really think John Ramsey is the fucking entire mastermind.
And another thing I was thinking too is that their interviews post right after what happened are creepy and fucking weird. The CNN interview? Yeah.
All of of their like that, them calling the press to give an interview. And you had mentioned it before that, that when someone asked to ask Patsy, who's clearly on fucking Valium.
Yes. She's on so many pills.
Yeah. They ask her, do you think it was an outside intruder? And she's shaking her head no with her eyes closed.
And the minute John says, yes, she starts to nod. Yes.
Yeah. she goes into this weird circle and then tries to like...
But she also does... She's doing a lot of long blinking and it's almost like she just doesn't want to...
She just wants to disappear. Well, here's what I think.
Okay, I definitely think Patsy wrote the note, the ransom letter. It's not a fucking note.
No, it's a four-page letter. I think Burke accidentally hit her.
I think they conspired to cover it up maybe with with John being the mastermind. Right.
I think he took her downstairs, Jean Benet's body downstairs to make it staged as a kidnapping. And I don't think Patsy realized the extent of how he covered it up.
Right. I think she thought he'd put a pillow over her face.
She thought she would be suffocated. But when Patsy found out the extent of what he did to her body, I think then she, and she still had to go with it.
Yeah. I think that that's why she was so freaked out by it.
I don't think she was like... That's a horrible...
Do you know what I mean? Yes. And that's a horrible idea.
Like just that you would be put in that position as a mother. Yeah.
The one that gives me more comfort because it's so much less tragic. And it's based on that 911 dispatcher who suddenly was under a gag order for years and never talked to anybody.
And no one ever tried to interview her? But here's the thing that's weird to me. No one ever tried to interview her and she wasn't under a gag order.
So when was the gag order lifted that she can be talking on this documentary? I don't think it ever was. I think she was just like, all right, clearly no one's...
I think once they exonerated... The Ramseys? The Ramseys, it was just gone.
Well, what was interesting to me is she said that that moment where Patsy thought she hung up the phone. Okay, let's talk about that.
I never knew about that either. That Patsy makes this 911 call, which I didn't listen.
I, of course, heard snippets here and there, but I cannot listen to it. It's horrifying.
Well, and especially because it's bad acting. From that alone, if you just made me guess off the 911 call, I'd say they're complicit in some way, but that Patsy thinks she hangs the phone up and then they're recording what's happening in their kitchen.
And the 911 operator is on the line listening and trying to listen. And the thing, well, just the one thing that that 911 operator said was her tone once she was like so hysterical and get someone here, get someone here.
A, you don't hang up the phone when your child is missing and that's your lifeline. Hanging up the phone is crazy.
And then B, her vocal tone changes immediately to the point where that's what gave that 911 dispatcher the creeps. Because she's hysterical.
She's freaking out. She's not answering the 911 dispatcher's questions.

The minute she says, who are you?

She clearly states her name, everything.

I'm the mother and clearly gives an answer.

Yes.

Suddenly the hysteria isn't so out of control.

And it's true that I like this in the CBS documentary

where they said you don't hang up on a 911 call. No, no one does.
No one hangs up. It's your lifeline.
That was the coolest part. I mean, I understand.
Look, this is just like Jack the Ripper where there's so many experts now and there's so many, so many theories that it's just out of control. I don't think it'll ever be solved.
I don't know unless there's something gets dug up, like literally or, you know, some hidden thing. I didn't, I don't hear what there's some something gets dug up like literally or you know some hidden thing.
I didn't I don't hear what they I didn't hear at the end of the 911 call to hang up what is purported to be said. By who? By anyone in the family.
I believe the 911 operator when she says I heard I thought I heard Patsy say called, I called nine, I called the police. Now what? Yeah.
That sounds, that sounds more believable to me than when they, when they did the whole gimmick of slowing down the 911 call and slowing down people heard in the background and whose voice is whose, you hear what you want to hear. Yes.
That's very true. And also that part was ludicrous because, well, it was just TV.
I mean, that's the part where I was just sitting there going, oh, they're really trying to stretch this out. I bet you when they cut that other stuff and the other episodes, they had to go back and like fill time or something because that was so ludicrous.
First of all, every sound editor in the world would watch that and just be like, these are the people I hate working with. You don't have to tell me that we need to go back and reduce the noise because clearly that's,

until you can hear what people are saying,

we have to keep on trying to clarify the clip.

Yeah.

Like that idea that they were sitting next to that man going,

bring this down and bring this up.

Do this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The guy actually knows how to use the machine.

And the moment someone tells you what they're hearing,

you hear it too.

Of course.

Even if it's not there.

And especially with something like this, where it's like, you're hearing Patsy Ramsey's voice. You're hearing John Ramsey's voice.
Yeah. But at the same time, what they're arguing by hearing Burke Ramsey's voice at the end of that is that he wasn't in bed.
And I have a lot of problems with the idea that he was in bed through the whole time. Because A, why when you just found out that your child is kidnapped and gone, would you let your other child be somewhere else? You would grab the other child and make sure they're by your fucking side the whole time.
That's the first thing you would do. The first thing you would do.
Yes. Why didn't he get out of bed when he heard his mom flipping the fuck out to see what was going on and what was wrong?

Well, what he said in those interviews is he's a real deep sleeper all the time, always.

Right.

He's using words like, I'm always, I never hear anything.

I'm always a deep sleeper.

Okay.

Prepped.

Yep.

So that's, why would they lie about that?

Because they're lying, because the whole thing is bullshit.

And I mean, that kind of thing where like the 911 dispatcher heard things that even if she didn't hear exact words, like she was talking about the vocal tone changed. So she knows that Patsy thought the phone was hung up and suddenly the, the like act was dropped and that's what she was hearing.
Maybe she got the words wrong or right. We don't know.
But like that in and of itself. Also, when Burke goes, what did you find? Right.
That little quote, which you can hear pretty clearly. But it's like, it's such a weird little voice.
Like he's, you don't hear. What did happen? He doesn't sound scared.
No. He doesn't sound upset.
He sounds like someone that's going through that with not a lot of emotion. Okay.
So what about, okay, why would, let's say that they all had something to do with it. She wrote the 911, I mean the ransom letter.
Why would they call 911 immediately without getting rid of the body in the morning? Like why wouldn't they, why wouldn't he have taken the body out and disposed of it?

I mean, who the fuck knows? Because I think it's still their daughter. So they're not going to leave their daughter at their garbage dump.
The problem with this case too is that there's so many things I've heard about. For example, that there was a dictionary in someone's study turned to the word incest.
the only place I've ever seen that is in, you know, forums of people writing about the case. I've never seen that in an actual, you know, crime scene write-up.
Yeah, that sounds like something a seventh grade girl would say. Yeah, there's so much shit in this.
There is a book open on the desk. You guys, there was so much shit.
There is so much shit that I'm like, well, I heard this thing was what they found, but it's not in the autopsy report. So why would it? Because it's like weird gossip because people start talking about stuff like this and suddenly it takes on a life of its own.
But here's the thing I thought when they were going over all those crime scene footage, who the fuck sees that their son killed their daughter with,

by hitting her on the head with a flashlight,

takes that flashlight,

sticks it on the kitchen counter and leaves it there.

That's the thing that you would dump and get rid of.

And that's the thing that baffled.

I kept saying,

is this picture from earlier where they just know for a fact,

they own this flashlight. But no,

but here,

but okay,

well,

I'm going to,

I'm going to immediately argue the other way because I can and I like it.

Yes.

Thank you. from earlier where they just know for a fact they own this flashlight.
But no, but here, but okay. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to immediately argue the other way because I can and I like it.
Yes. You're fucking freaking out.
You had to start a ransom note twice, three times because you're freaking out. You don't think to move this one piece.
I just don't think you think everything through and there's blood on it, as they showed by having this fucking most fucked up kid in the world hit a goddamn mannequin with pigskin and a wig. All of that was like, all of that, I say, shame on you, CBS, because that was not necessary.
It was super creepy. He looked like a little child actor, but his eyes were a bit wild.
The whole thing of that was gross. Honestly, that whole time, I felt so bad for the hosts because you can tell that the producer was like, you have to fucking do this.
And both the hosts were like, I'm a fucking journalist. I'm a fucking like...
We're trying to find out actual answers. And you need this clip.
A six foot cop who is 200 pounds is being tased to show what it might have been like for Jean Benet, which is like sorry, none of this equates. That and when they were in a parking lot and the hosts were going to go speak to the Ramses that couldn't be recorded and there was a whole like five minutes of that of them waiting around in the parking lot for the host to come back

and talk about unnecessary

the whole thing was unnecessary it was

I think they were trying to be verite

but it was also they're like

so we've got this insane interview

that we've been waiting for but

the guy's like not on camera but I'll tell you

what I know yeah you just can't

record it so they need

to they need the

the what do you call it like

Thank you. the guy's like not on camera, but I'll tell you what I know.
Yeah. You just can't record it.
So they need to, they need the, the, um, what do you call it? Like they need the authenticity of the fact that they got this huge get of an interview. Like this is legitimate because we're actually speaking to them.
It also shows to me as a person that's worked in TV for a long time, the run and gun style where you have to make up solutions on, on the fly. And if you were thinking it would be cool to work in TV, just go and look at Eddie Schmidt, the producer of this show, standing in the Safeway parking lot, watching all the beautiful SUVs drive away while he stands there with the cameraman.
For four and a half hours probably. Waiting.
Yeah. They ate a bunch of Safeway donuts and just kicked it waiting to find out what happened because that's what it's really like and you know what okay here's a fucking thing maybe they did talk to the fucking whites on camera and the whites said the same thing they always say very fucking you know bullet pointed and it wasn't as interesting and so they said let's pretend like wouldn't speak to us.
Yes. Is that a thing? Well, yeah, because the thing that I was shocked by, another piece of information, was that Fleet White wrote an open letter telling John Ramsey, you need to cooperate with the police.
Totally. That's crazy.
They were, the Whites came over the morning of the murder. They were the first group of people there.
They were the first call after the phony 911 call. And Fleet White was with John Ramsey when he found JonBenet's body.
I wonder if those two people feel used as fuck. Well, they were.
Yeah. They were.
Because that's another thing they talked about is that's a very common thing. Invite someone in to witness you finding the body.
You don't find the body alone if you've done it. You bring people in to witness.
That was fucking fascinating. Yes.
There's a lot of like, if you choose to look at it through this one angle, which I think we should do the opposite in a minute too. I think we should look at it from an intruder angle.
But in that way, a man who has two planes, first of all, sidebar,

for people,

for millions of all, sidebar, for people, for millionaires, a millionaire's house is kind of a shitty house. It was clearly pre the declutter trend of the mid-2000s because there was so much shit everywhere.
And it was like, there was like fake autumn leaves that were plastic in a drawer that was hanging down from the top of a shelving system. It was like, sorry, you're rich.
What is this house? And when they went to like open JonBenet's bedroom door, there were all those hand marks on the outside. Did you see that? Like a finger marks or like kids grabbing the door.
It just was like, it was weird to me. And this whole time when they say her body was found in the wine cellar, I'm picturing a wine cellar.
No, that was the most depressing, creepy room I've ever seen. It was a cement room where they threw old shit and maybe kept some wine.
I don't know. But like it, the whole thing was, there was a lot of cognitive dissonance.
Can I tell you when they were doing the like walkthrough of it, I was the king. I watched a shit ton of HGTV and the whole time I was like, well, you take down this wall and you open the basement up so it could be like a man cave and it'd have an open concept thing and this spiral staircase is so dated and unnecessary.
The whole time I was thinking of the Property Brothers being like, you take this fucking wall down. The spiral staircase, it looks like something that would be in my hometown in a house that was left over from 1965.
Like, it is so weird and tacky. And like, if you've ever gone down one of those metal spiral staircases in a house, it feels like you're going to die the whole time.
You're going to fall fucking face forward into the other, the bar that's on the next spiral. It's so weird.
That whole part. But I guess my point actually was super rich people like that that are kind of, they're the people, they don't even fly first class.
They don't fly commercial at all. Oh, wait, they get their own fucking planes.
They have private planes. They're private plane rich.
These are people who think they can get away with whatever because they already are up above the fray.

They're not anywhere near Judy and Johnny lunch.

How crazy is it that she was 21 years old when they got married?

Yeah.

And he'd already had a whole family.

He was what then?

I think he was like 16 years older than her.

That means he was like in his mid, late 30s.

21 year old girl that he marries.

Yep. I mean, we've all met 21 year olds they're fucking idiots

yeah even that seems uncommon these days

21 is a bit of a throwback

so he marries this

trophy wife

they have a trophy daughter

and that their

place son

I liked that

it was told that 76%

of the ransom note was

Let's do this. man.
And that their place sunk. All right.
Their house was ugly. I liked that it was told that 76% of the ransom note was bullshit.
Erroneous. Yeah.
Too much. All you needed was these four lines.
They're selling. They kept saying the phrase, they're selling.
They're selling it. Yeah.
That there wasn't, there didn't need to be blood from the blow to the head, even though they showed it in the worst way possible. That was interesting.
Also, so you get, you see this ransom note letter. It says, don't call the fucking cops or we'll behead your daughter multiple times.
Yes. The first thing they do is call the cops.
Yes. Why is that? Even if.
Because they wrote the letter and they know it's not actually going to happen. even if the letter wasn't um even if they didn't do it and the letter was found they still made so many mistakes and and it was still a fake ransom note no matter that's what's so hard about it is no matter what it was a fake ransom note yes that's a hundred percent so it's hard to be like who wrote this ransom note you can't be like but it was a fake ransom note.
Yes. That's 100% true.
So it's hard to be like, who wrote this ransom note? You can't be like, but it was a fake

ransom note. So the parents didn't.
No, the ransom

note was fake no matter what. Yes.

There's no small foreign faction. No.

And the kid was already dead

in the basement. Right.

And you clearly didn't bring this.

If the ransom note had been brought in

and then she was found dead,

it would have been like, oh, they meant to kidnap

her, but it didn't happen. Right.

Also, the point they made very

Thank you. If the ransom note had been brought in and then she was found dead, it would have been like, oh, they meant to kidnap her, but it didn't happen.
Right. Also, the point they made very early, and that is like, to me, the proof of almost everything, is you don't kidnap a six-year-old girl out of a millionaire's house and ask for $100,000.
It's insane. That's the dumbest fucking part of it, where it's like, you have a living child.
It's millions. millions you ask for millions and you know this person's a millionaire they talk about him they talk about him as if they know him so personally well they say a couple things in it they say that that get it out of your account so they know that that's how much but he has at least that in his account yeah not get the fucking money no matter what you can do yeah the other thing is get a big enough quote attache case.
Who gives a shit what size bag? You know, get a brown paper bag. You don't need to tell this person that.
Get this much money, period. Yes.
Well, that's, yeah, that's clearly someone just having... Thinking way too hard about this.
And also believing their own shit. Like that's that thing where instead of having the self-consciousness to go, is this believable or whatever? It was just like sit down and have a creative writing session.
Yeah. And saying, get some rest.
You're going to, this is going to be complicated. It's like she, okay, let's just say it was Patsy writing this thing.
She sat down at a desk. She started out.
But he might have been dictating. He could have been dictating.
It was her handwriting. She was a journalist major too.
So she knows how to write. Yes.
Could go on. Sorry.
No, no, no. But it is just that idea of like, you get started, you're already got the adrenaline running, some insane shit.
You're in a surreal place anyway. Then you just start kind of going for it where you're quoting speed.
Yeah. You're like, here's what...
yeah the girl dies here's what people who have seen too many movies about it think that a ransom letter is written what about just can we skip to the part where they interviewed the gardener and he talked about Patsy Ramsey coming out to talk about the OJ verdict that part part, I was like, I don't care what else happens in this thing. The idea that there's a first person eyewitness talking about Patsy Ramsey's reaction to OJ.
Which is that you can get away with murder in America. Yes.
But there was also just, it was that, but then it was also just the general kind of mashup of like, this is like pop culture gone mad on my TV right now. It's interesting how much the OJ, the Simpsons had to do with this, like how much they were affected by each other.
And you know, I was reading some of the movie quotes and how similar they were. And there were also people online who are fucking brilliant, interesting people who say, here's when this movie showed in Boulder near the date of her murder.
The night before one of the movies was played on TV. Oh my God.
November 29th, this movie was played on TV in Boulder. It's really fucking interesting.
See, that's the shit. That really is...
It's the wave of the future. It's people, armchair detectives who are going to solve the big stuff.
Totally. Because that's the kind of stuff that if cops...
And all those cops that talk... That one investigator that quit because he was like this is disgusting love seeing him young and then

seeing him interviewed he was hot

stuff super fucking hot

he was hot and also just his

like burning sense of

justice was delicious

oh my god and he was just like

I want him to win yeah

and it's that thing of like

well he quits so then

nothing goes forward but then it's like yeah but

or he stays and goes insane or takes the

Thank you. I want him to win.
Yeah. And it's that thing of like, well, he quits, so then nothing goes forward.
But then it's like, yeah, but or he stays and goes insane or takes the fall or it's just that. Or hates himself for the rest of his life because he didn't do the right, he didn't do anything.
Right. Quitting sometimes is like the only way you can show how passionate you are about something.
Right. It's a state, it's a real political statement.
And if he was told this has become a political situation, then he has to be political too. You just have to play on the playing field.
Well, them saying that everyone voted to indict the Ramseys for having some hand in JonBenet dying and the fucking police chief.

Just being like, no, thanks.

Giving a news conference that they're not doing it. Now, one of the very first Last Podcast on the Left episodes I listened to on your recommendation was their JonBenet Ramsey.

Is it two part?

Yes, at least.

Last Podcast on the Left has a two part JonBenet Ramsey episode.

That is great. That is fucking incredible.
So thoroughly researched. Yeah.
It's so awesome. And we're back here.
We're back here to really review something else we're reviewing from the past. I'm proud of myself for having the stands even back then of like, let's not use the word panties.
Why are grown educated people casually, scientifically throwing out the word panties? I feel like that and when someone else pointed it out and I just got to be there to observe talking about, we don't call it kiddie porn. Right.
This is, it's CSA child sexual assault materials. Like, that idea of it is part of the problem.
Totally. And is part of, like, the delineation that needs to be made of, like, the casualness, the grossness, and also the kind of maybe insinuating that anybody is there voluntarily or happily.
Right. It's not porn.
It's not the same thing as porn.

No.

At all.

But really indicative of this was this,

it's just weird to me how much this show,

like, it doesn't feel like it was that long ago.

It was a really long time ago.

I was almost like, now we're back in 2024,

but no, we're not.

We're now in 2025 even.

Yeah.

That's so, almost 10 fucking years.

Yeah, let's get back into the episode, shall we?

All right.

Thank you. but no, we're not.
We're now in 2025 even. That's so, almost 10 fucking years.
Again, let's get back into the episode, shall we? All right. Let's get back into the rest of the story.
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Goodbye. One of the, to me, most fascinating parts was them talking about how John Ramsey is a millionaire because he's got this computer programming company or some computer something company, but that they don't really know what it does.
It has a government contract, I believe they said, and he makes millions of dollars a year, but they can't really figure out what he does. We got to ask Mr.
Robot. That's right.
Mr. Robot got to shut him down.
And then we got to go to Rahm Emanuel and be like, what the fuck? Are you doing later? It happens and are you doing later?

But I just thought that was

it. I love that theory because

I love...

There is some bigger thing at work

that's keeping the district

attorney of Boulder underneath

John Ramsey's thumb.

Why does he have that much power? Aside from

just money, there's got...

I mean, this is so dumb, but

since watching Mr. Robot,

hacking emails seems like

of the Why does he have that much power? Aside from just money, there's got a bolder... Well, since...
I mean, this is so dumb,

but since watching Mr. Robot,

hacking emails seems like a very easy thing to do.

Yes.

Hacking fucking internet searches.

You have some shit on someone and...

Oh, so you think he did that to them?

Maybe they have some shit on the fucking chief of police. You know? Sure.
Emails. I mean, let's go to the fucking obvious.
Child pornography. Right.
Anything. Yeah.
And he knows about it before even the police would know. Sure.
That's fascinating. I liked how they jump straight to Patsy as an MKUltra robot.
Yeah. I just...
Well, I wrote... Let's go back to my Elle article.
I wrote in it that how beautiful would it be if it was MKUltra or if it was... God damn it, Steven.
Steven. The moment I said MKUltra, Steven's phone started barking and it's like the MKUltra...
The government's trying to shut us down. We don't give a fuck.
We're talking about it. Stephen, you're fired.
No, you're not. Stephen, you're rehired at a higher rate.
Elvis, you're in. Yeah.
I would love it if it were that simple. And interesting.
And interesting and not awful. But the reality is like

parents kill their children

more than strangers kill their

children or kill people's children.

Yes. It's always

from the family. That's the first

place they look for a reason.

It's usually an inside job

and it's also the darkest choice.

So it's the biggest bummer that most people don't want

to look at it all. I know.

Because that's anybody. It's horrible.

I think

Thank you. and it's also the darkest choice.
So it's the biggest bummer that most people don't want to look at it all.

I know.

Because that's anybody.

It's horrible.

Yeah.

I think, I mean, it's hard to find them actually.

I was looking for them today,

but the initial press interviews with John Ramsey,

which you can see in the CBS doc,

are cold and creepy.

Yeah, he's a real creeper. I don't think that that necessarily, like as people have said about many people in this series, like I think we're just learning now how people grieve, what they look like when they're under pressure and all this stuff.
And you know, I agree with that all completely, but this is fucking goodbye, let's move on. Yes, it's very it's very, it's so telling once you relook at it and like under, aside from thinking exactly who did it or exactly what the situation was, I just know that like my father, like if you're talking about someone who just died, you, you, even if you're a man and a strong man and you were in a war, you whatever.
Yeah. You're, you're talking about someone who just died, you, you,

even if you're a man and a strong man and you were in a war,

you whatever.

Yeah.

Your,

your child,

you would get choked up.

You just,

that's your,

the words are coming out of your mouth and you're listening to them.

If you have a total disconnect,

then you're,

then you give a great press conference.

Can I say,

let me,

let's impart a personal part of this because people fucking love that. But when I was like 13 and on drugs and like a really bad kid and one night I just didn't come home and my sister had dropped me off somewhere and I just went out with my fucking punk rock friends and my parents called the police and were freaking out.
And my brother later said to me like the next, when I finally came home and I just been on drugs all night, was like, and he lived with my dad. He said, I heard dad in the other room weeping, weeping.
And my dad's not like that. And I fucking, that was one of the things that made me stop doing drugs.
Yeah. It's the thought of my dad weeping at me just not being home.
Right. So the fact that he's just, I mean, I know we all react differently.
Yes. But the reaction, his fucking demeanor is cold.
It's incredibly cold. He doesn't put his arm around his wife who's crying.
No, there's a real like, he has a real B of A bank manager feel to him where he's letting you know your house is getting foreclosed on and i and i don't have i have shut myself off from other people's emotions for so long that i just don't care well and also like he's in business mode where this is an emergency all the like emergency cord got pulled and now that's the mode he's in and he's completely like compartmentalized all of everything. The emergency garrot got pulled.
Oh, dude. That thing is such a bummer.
I think he was in the Navy. Is that true? And he worked for a small foreign faction in the Philippines.
Is that true? And their SBTC

has something

to do with the Navy.

Oh, is that true? Victory?

Is signing things... Oh, I wrote a thing.

Is signing things victory with an exclamation

point from the Navy? Because that's

so stupid. Although I

am changing my email signature.

Do you dare me?

I might do it right. Oh my God, do it.
Okay, so I read...

Victory! I read a bunch

of shit of like... I read a bunch of

Thank you. I am changing my email signature.
Do you dare me? I might do it right. Oh my God, do it.
Okay. So I read a bunch of shit of like, I read a bunch of mostly the comments on people's blog posts about what it was were fucking more interesting than the blog posts.
One of them was, it was on WebSleuths. Someone said, on your phone keypad, the number corresponds with three or four letters.
Look for SBTC. The numbers are 7282.
7282 corresponds with PATC. PATC.
Don't underestimate us, John. Use that good Southern common sense of yours.
It's up to you now, John. Victory for Patsy.
I know. But what is that? Victory for Patsy? Patsy.
So maybe Patsy... I mean, I know it's her, but I'm...
I don't know. It's one of those...
Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yes, it is.
It has nothing to do with it. Well, also, that's a really good way to make up a code.
Let's do it right now. I mean...
Pick one. What's your name on here? Hardkill.
Hardkill. Hardkill.
All right, here. Let me write some...
I wrote like a bunch of fucking thoughts. Why sign a ransom note to begin with? Right.
Nobody signs a ransom note. No one expects you to put your name on there.
Did you know there were also... And we should do a quick like...
Let's do the side of, it was an intruder because there's a lot of them. Okay.
Let's do it. There were 38 registered sex offenders living within two miles of the house in Boulder.
Yes. That's a lot.
That's a lot. And Boulder small.
JonBenet had been to the pediatrician over the last three years of her life 27 times. That's a lot.
That's too many. That's too many.
Wait, was Patsy some kind of weird... She might have had Munchausen by proxy.
For sure. Yeah.
That's what that says to me. Okay.
If Patsy had nothing to do with any of it and John did, it makes sense that she's the one to like who, if someone makes the panic 911 call, the other person is telling them not to read the note. It says not to call.
Yes. So one way or the other, you know what I mean? Like she's being manipulated.
Right. Yeah.
I think Patsy was manipulated this whole time. Maybe she knew some things and so she couldn't tell the truth.
Yes. I think that's what it looked like in that CNN interview where she's got pale eyes and she's going, I love my daughter with her eyes closed.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think that she maybe knew some of it and agreed to it and didn't realize the extent of her husband's fucking awfulness. But also that idea that she would be telling, she said, if we live in Boulder, which she said the phrase, if we live in Boulder, which I wrote down, don't they live in Boulder? I would tell everyone in Boulder.
If we live in Boulder. And she says, I tell my friends.
So it's this like weird thing of like, who are you telling? Yes. And she's saying there's a killer out there.
Hold your babies tight. But the idea that that's a given.
Yeah. Like you don't have to underline that if you're this mourning mother who...
As if she didn't because she was very protective of her children. Yeah.
Oh, you said in your Elle article, you said the thing about we have to stop using the word panties.

Oh, can we not?

It's so true. But you know what I thought of is Henry Lee, Dr.
Henry Lee has such a thick accent. Yeah.
I bet you the word underwear was hard for him to say. This man is such a famous and prolific and legendary forensic pathologist.
If you don't watch true crime shit, you wouldn't know that Dr. Lee, Henry Lee is someone that we all fucking admire.
He's amazing. The minute he's in on it, you're like, oh, this is legit.
Oh, this is legit. And also he has a building.
They went to his building with his name on the front of it to talk about some of that DNA stuff. So like there's no sweat off Henry Lee's back in any way.
Absolutely not. Yeah.
And he's not going to, he's also not going to bullshit. He's not going to be paid to do a show with his opinion because they need a certain opinion.
He's not going to lie. No, I feel like all of those scientists really were there because like this thing is fucked and we need to look at it and at least just organize the paperwork at the very least.
I agree. The show was great.
I wish we could see the last unaired portion of it. I want to know what they cut out.
Yeah. I think they fucked everyone over by not showing that.
But I wonder if it was stuff that the Burke Ramsey's lawyers were like, go ahead and air it. We'll own CBS in a year.
What I was thinking is that the four bias document, docuseries before it covered so much of it already that they didn't, we were like, you know what? We don't need to add this. Maybe except for, well, I have to see the other ones to know, but I don't know.
I mean, because their whole thing was like, we're going to discover all this stuff. Yeah.
Werner Spitz.

Oh God, I love him.

He has a straight up Peaky Blinders haircut.

If you watch Peaky Blinders, that's the same hair.

The second I saw him, I was like, oh my God.

I love him.

Picture him and Henry Lee putting a house together.

And they just, there's...

When people stop being polite. And start real.
Like, that is my dream. And then like, there's just like, they just get like, every morning they wake up and it's instead of Tyra Male, it's like a fucking corpse and they have to figure out what happened to it.
Tyra Male, it's a corpse. Oh my God.
How great would that be? I mean, we should just start our own network. I feel like because also Warner spits guesting on Peaky Blinders.
Oh, gorgeous. He could be the German Irish guy that comes in and just point some stuff out.
Listen, Emmys next year. We're there.
Sure. Winning all of them.
We'll go down to the shrine and stand around near that Burger King. Sure.
I'll get a fucking run-through runway dress. Yeah.
The whole thing actually made me, it made me think of like all of those other cases where people, the more people talk about it, the more people hear bullshit, the more like, you know, like the, we talked about the John Mark Carr theory where he had confessed to being her killer while he was in Malaysia somewhere. Right.
To get out of. To get out of being in jail because he's a child molester who had gotten arrested for, I think, child sex tourism and, and knew that if he went to jail there, he would just die in a pit somewhere.
And so he confessed to killing John Benet and then was extradited. That's really interesting.
And when he was extradited and everyone was talking about it, my sister gets a phone call from our childhood friend. I didn't tell you this? You did, but I don't remember.
And she goes, oh my God, see that guy on the news right now? That's the guy from my church group I've been complaining about. And apparently John McCart lived in Petaluma and was in my sister's friend's church group and was the guy that everyone's like, I want to cancel a church group next week.
I feel so weird. Like he was creeping people out and super weird, super like just bad vibes suspicious and then i mean how like satisfying would that be and then you see him like basically confessing to the murder of john benet rams the minute i see him like you know when there's like the clips or the trailers to a john benet fucking uh you know docuseries and i see him i'm like oh this isn't legit.
No, I don't want to hear about him. No, no, no.
He has nothing to do with it.

I don't want to hear about him. No, no, no.
He has nothing to do with it aside from sensationalism. He should just get a big red herring costume because that's all he is.
Should we? All right. I'm going to read a couple of things.
Felicia said she did some digging last night and feel super confident about the Burke theory. She'd learned some things she hadn't before.

Okay, this is interesting.

There was a 14-year-old girl that was sexually molested by an intruder

about nine months after Jean Benet was murdered,

very close to the Ramsey home.

Quote, Amy was sexually assaulted in her bed

by an intruder that they believe was lying in wait

for four to six hours before the attack.

While they were all asleep,

he was never caught

and the Boulder police disregarded the mother's suggestion

that he could have been the killer of Jean Benet.

Aim for the next step. to six hours before the attack while they were all asleep.
He was never caught and the Boulder police disregarded the mother's suggestion that he could have been the killer of JonBenet. Amy and JonBenet Ramsey attended the same dance studio.
Ew. There are a lot of...
Okay, so the fact that they had a walkthrough of their Christmas decorated house, the Ramseys. Yeah.
What was it? A couple of days before the murder. Was it like a public walkthrough? Yeah.
Oh, I didn't know that. You know, like when you do like a haunted house for Halloween.
So anyone could have been in there. And the theory is that while the Ramseys were at a Christmas party that night, someone fucking came in broken, knew someone who had a key, got in and hid and waited.
Yeah. Totally possible.
And then depending on what side you want to argue, either the window in the basement had no leaves where someone scooted in or had an undisturbed spider web. Yeah.
That would have been someone had scooted in. Like everyone who has a fucking definitive answer about this needs to stop it because there's not one.
No. And that's, that's the crazy, the, the cobweb one watching them on that one show going in and out where I was just like, yeah, but then there's the one time where you don't touch it at all.
And because you're really skinny because you're on meth or this or that. Or you're careful.
One billion. Yes, exactly.
The thing that I thought was very suspicious was, first of all, they're these millionaires. They have two planes, but they have a broken window pane in their basement and they don't fix it.
I'm the most irresponsible person in the world. And when I broke my kitchen window, I fixed it within three days because it's your house and it's an open window.
Like it's unsafe, it's glass. And then there was some somewhere in that where John Ramsey said that they left it like that because he locked himself out a lot, which is insanity.
The fact that he admitted to that being his fault, I thought was very weird. Super weird because to me it's like, oh, are you trying to justify if there's some latent print somewhere? Because it doesn't even, what? Get a hide a key.
There's one million things, especially as a millionaire that you could do. Yeah.
Buy a second fucking house. Like there's all these things you could do instead of breaking a window and leaving it that way.
I thought it was really, like there's some things that to me were like, well, if you want to argue this thing this way, you say this. If you want to argue with the, like there's things like the taser marks.
If you want it to be an intruder, it's taser marks. If you don't want it to be an intruder, it's train track.
It's Burke's toy train track marks. Yes.
Every piece of evidence can be argued either way you fucking want it to be argued. I did think it was interesting when they argued the taser that tasers don't put you to sleep.
They actually get your adrenaline going and zap you and make you very much awake. That's an I think, and I think that that could point to shoddy, this super shoddy police work of that, these weird assumptions where it's like they were, they were actually measuring it and being like, yeah, this doesn't even fit a taser shape.
It doesn't. I think the thing for me, all right, let's, let's do our big conclusion.
Great. I think.
Because I'm so tired. I'm so tired too.
Let's do the thing between, between, I think the ransom letter and the 911 call and what happened between when the cops came and her body was found, put down and then. Ugh.
I those things... Moved all over the house by neighbors and friends.
And picked up DNA all over the carpet. Yeah.
I think those things are the most telling, more than anything else, and the pineapple, but also... And I think those things all point to it...
Inside John? And it makes more sense to me that one of the three people aside from JonBenet in that house that night had something to do with it more than a stranger or someone else outside of it. Yeah.
It just makes more sense. It does.
I mean, the thing that's maddening, I guess, is that could be a little bit of everything. It could be an intruder who opened that window and saw the suitcase in the room and put it there because he was like, I'm going to go get that little girl and take her out.
There's all these things that it could be a little piece of each. But yes, I agree and believe that the ransom note is a lie and it's a fabrication.
And the 911 calls bullshit. I don't buy her level.
It's acting and it's not good acting. And then The fact that that Maglite flashlight

Fits the whole

And Zambany's head perfectly is devastating, like proof that, or at least devastating proof too much. But it's that thing of like, then you, I just, it suddenly made sense of like she did yet another irritating

thing to him and he grabbed something nearby threw it at her or like ran behind her and

cracked her with not knowing yeah you don't have to be like you know crazy the good son

evil child to make a terrible mistake to me Patsy and Burke are Patsy's and John's

Thank you. mistake to me patsy and burke are patsy's and john's the ego yeah ego well he's gonna take care of business like yeah this the worst case scenario thing happened yeah and yeah he's gonna fix it and did you know that so out of all the um they did I really like the, when they take apart the ransom note and look letter by letter of who it matches.
So, oh God, where'd it go? So all these people were, I'm going to get my notes from under my cat. Oh God, where'd it go? Well, 100 people, their handwriting was compared to the ransom note.
Everyone was cleared and everyone keeps saying like, well, Patsy Ramsey was inconclusive. Out of the 100 people, hers was the only one that wasn't cleared.
Yeah. That was quote inconclusive.
Yeah. She also wrote out the words $118,000.
Instead of the numbers. Yeah.
Yes. Nobody fucking does that.
No one does that. When asked to rewrite the ransom note, she did that.
But I also, I just, I have so much sympathy for her. Well, yeah.
The idea that she would know that her child was murdered and then have to be a part of the cover-up, have to be the voice of the cover-up. Yeah.
The grieving mother. And so then balance those feelings of you actually really did lose your child, but now in the name, just say if it's the Burke, in the name of your other child, you have to continue on and do this thing.
Yeah. That's a sickening proposition.
Especially when you're someone who appearances mean so much to everyone. You and I don't give a fuck.
I'm sitting fucking spread eagle right now with shorts and I don't give a shit. My roots need to be dyed so bad that strangers laugh at me on the street.
And yeah, to be wrapped up in that world, that trapping of, it is its own pageantry. It's an adult version of that, of look at my home.
Now there are balls of shit in my daughter's bed that my son put there. Look at my beautiful children.
Please look at my Christmas tree. And you're still winning.
You're still going to win the crown if you're the fucking best at it. That's right.
It's just different. Insanity.
Also, there was that one quote where a little girl, and it's the woman that was interviewed, I call her the wine friend, that said, I was turned out, cast out from the friendship, where I was like, yeah, because you talk to fucking reporters, and you clearly just ran blabbing the second you could. But she said that her daughter had gone up to JonBenet's room with her one time and was looking at all the trophies and said, what are these? And she said, I just won those, but they're really my mom's.
Thinking, first of all, I don't buy that that actually happened. That sounds like an anecdote someone would write on Twitter about their brilliant child.
Yeah. Because it's old soul kind of thing knowing that's like her commenting on the reality of her own life in a way as if she's not a part of it to say, yes, my mother's very wrapped up in my career.
Talk about this on CBS when I'm dead. Yeah, it doesn't make sense.
For a six-year-old, maybe if she was eight or, I mean, who knows? Everyone wants to make their kids seem like an old soul, but really, they're just fucking... They scream Sesame Street socks at the top of their fucking locks.
They're new souls to everybody else in the restaurant when your child's screaming, so shut it. Oh, no.
Was that enough Jean Benet talk for everybody? I think it was a lot. I think I'm done talking about this anymore.
Yeah. Unless there's new information.
Yeah. I would be interested in new information, but I feel like we've, we've just hit a peak at true zenith of Jean Benet reporting.
And, and also just that it's this thing of everybody going true crime, so hot right now, true crime or whatever, where it's just like, yeah, but we don't need to keep talking about the same thing over and over. The amount of research I've done on this person that I, this case that I'm really very interested in.
And I feel a lot of fucking sadness and pain for the victim. I feel like if I keep fucking searching it and getting into it and talking about it, I'm just, I'm not, I'm desecrating her fucking memory.
And I just, I can't keep looking at

fucking autopsy photos.

No. And it's also, it's not

good for your brain. No.
Like it's not,

it's, you're not related. You don't work

on it. You don't put yourself through it.

I saw a picture on Twitter moments

this morning because there was nothing. I was, I was up

at like six and there was nothing going on Twitter.

So I went, I made the grave mistake of touching the moments button and seeing what the story was there. And it said something about JonBenet, but the picture was one where I was like, is this Angelina Jolie? Her mouth is open and her head is tipped back.
And she's got all kinds of fucking makeup on and her hair is brushed away from her head. So you can see her tall forehead and she truly she truly looks like she's 20.
And it is such a sexual picture. And that's the picture Twitter moments chose to use as the Jean Benet headline picture.
Not the cute one where she's got the little bangs and the little hat. And she just looks like she's on vacation.
It was like she might as well have been like grabbing her own neck. It was such a sexual like perfume commercial.
Let's stop doing this. Let's stop it.
It's gross. To her.
Poor baby. It's not going to stop though because it's so fucking salacious and it's so mysterious.
She is a sweet... We're going to file her away as a sweet baby Angle and she will be in...
You're in mine and my favorite murder is hearts and we feel awful and wish it would be solved, but it's not, it's just not, there's not, even if it gets solved, people are going to say it's a fucking conspiracy. Right.
Yeah. Keep your, keep your babies close.
And keep your foreign factions even closer to the punk rock band and. And stay sexy.
And don't get murdered. Elvis, want a cookie? Want a cookie? Want a cookie? Good boy.
We are back. And they're actually, this is what's very interesting.
There are some case updates. So 28 years later, of course, the murder of JonBenet Ramsey remains unsolved.
There are countless documentaries and forums where people talk about who they think did it, theories everywhere. Earlier this year, Jon Ramsey met with the new Boulder police chief and said it was the first time he felt that the case was in good hands and that it gave him a lot of hope.
You know, it's so funny because recently I talked

about the new documentary, Cold Case, Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey? And it's another one of those,

like, Jon Ramsey is interviewed throughout it. And I was like, I'm convinced he didn't do it,

blah, blah, blah. And I just, I still am like, I don't fucking know.
Like, all of this, first of all, we should have said allegedly from the top. Did we even say that word in this episode? I doubt it.
No, there's no way we said allegedly. We had no idea that we should be doing things like that.
No, this is all allegedly. I mean, my mind changes all the time.
And I will also say that an update on this is that Burke Ramsey sued CBS over this documentary. Yeah.
And he sued for $250 million in compensatory damages and $500 million in punitive damages. And it was settled outside of court.
Yeah. So it was, this documentary was inflammatory.
Oh my God, it absolutely was pointing that. I mean, it was almost like they're saying, we know that there's demand for the solution.

So we're going to try to get you as close to that as possible, which is just kind of like anything can be produced.

If you're on that side of things and just basically kind of trying to steer people a certain direction, it still doesn't mean you saw the case just because you've compiled kind of like your own narrative, your own television narrative. Like a possibility of something happening.
I mean, to me at this point, I was looking over the case again before we recorded. I really don't think in my heart that Burke, this 10-year-old boy had anything to do with what happened.
I do think that the ransom note is going to be the answer somehow because it's just so fucking weird and you can't get past it. Yes.
There's so many weird specifics in that ransom note. No, I agree with you.
But all of this is just like I feel like people theorizing, people online, everybody talking about it. Everyone is influenced by these documents.
So it's like we all believe in 2016 that we were really close to it. And then it's like, of course, 10 years later, everyone's like, no, clearly it's not that.
And after this episode aired, a lovely writer named Nathan Rabin at Vulture wrote a very nice article about us and this episode. So thank you so much to him.
That was very nice. Yeah.
I mean, any final thoughts? I feel like this is just one of those, you know, JonBenet. It's like we've been seeing her face in the grocery store tabloid kind of like rack since the moment this happened.
It is from a different time. It is an insane tragedy, yet it is still the kind of like white woman syndrome, white child syndrome.
This is the most important kind of murder. Rich people, it's the thing of like, we want rich people to pay some sort of a price.
We want to know what's going on inside other people's houses, especially big mansions. Yeah, definitely.
I do still think John Mark Carr should be looked closer at, especially after watching that cold case who killed JonBenet Ramsey, because they interview the private detective who was baiting him. And he did know more than he should have about the family.
That was the guy that showed up, right, and was suddenly kind of saying, I need to talk about maybe I'm involved in this. Your sister was saying in this episode, your sister's talking about having known him somehow too.
Oh, it was like friend of a

friend type of thing where somebody discovered that he had been in their church group. So I don't

know. I still am not totally convinced he doesn't have something to do with it or knows someone who

does. But we'll update it again in 10 years when we finally have the answer.
Can you imagine?

Double rewind? Double rewind. Double rewind.
We're again changing our stance on this. All right.
So if we were going to name this episode today, Small Forn Forn Forn Forn Forn Forn Forn Forn Forn Forn Forn Forn F all said and it keeps you wanting more simultaneously. But this one, if we were to name it today, it's something I still think about and still comes up in my head every time I hear it.
We could call this episode Scream Sneezer for sure. Scream Sneezer was one of those things when you and I started discussing it, people online really like this conversation because it was like it gave people a chance to either accuse their loved one of being one or tell their own personal story or admit they were or defend themselves.
There's a lot of scream sneezers who are like, I can't help it. And, you know.
Yes. And then be a little more aware of it.
I realized since then that I'm a scream yawner. And that is a whole, that's a whole nother fucking therapy session for me.
Have you heard me scream yawn? Not scream, but like, I know that that is project. I know you're just trying to catch your breath, but there have been, yeah, there have been some loud ones for yawns that are supposed to be on the quieter side.
It's ridiculous. Okay, what else we got? Oh, angry complaining.
Oh, basically that what I was talking about that there's a new format for this show and Angry Complaining would be the new top of show. That should be its own podcast completely.
I mean, I think that is podcasts in general. That's an older sister corner, of course, because that's what we talk about all the time.
And yeah, we need we need to know what Laura and Leah think about the podcast. Right.
Yeah. The foundation of this podcast was built on bossy older sisters.
It's so true. And sister relationships in general.
Like it's the sisters that got us where we are today for sure. Yeah.
If we weren't traumatized so incredibly by our older sisters, we wouldn't be where we are today. So.
You've got to know that that pain really does get planted deep into the soil of life experience and upgrows a beautiful podcast for you too. All right.
Well, thanks, you guys, for listening to this episode of Rewind. We really appreciate you guys inviting another episode into your week and your life.
My God, especially you people who listen to it the first time more than once.

I feel like there's people that are really out there doing triple and quadruple duty. And to you, we say thank you especially.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
And we also say stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Me? They comfortably clean up whatever TP leaves behind on your behind.
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